Jesse Michels, UAPGerb & Chris Ramsay - Flying Saucer Diner

Summary

AREA52 - DEBRIEFED With Chris Ramsay

Episode: Flying Saucer Diner – Jesse Michels, UAPGerb & Chris Ramsay

Date: July 17, 2026

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Overview

In this lively, in-depth episode of AREA52 – DEBRIEFED, host Chris Ramsay invites UFO journalist Jesse Michels and analyst/researcher UAPGerb (aka “Gerb”) to the “Flying Saucer Diner” for a wide-ranging conversation. The trio explore the intersection of magic, intelligence operations, non-human intelligence (NHI), government secrecy, and the search for truth in the UFO/UAP field. Over diner fare, they swap investigative war stories, discuss their dream podcast guests, how the landscape of disclosure is changing, and the personal pressures of covering such an enigmatic, sprawling topic.

The conversation weaves from sleight-of-hand psychology into legacy government programs, the enigmatic roles of key figures like Tim Taylor, Bobby Ray Inman, and Dan Burisch, the Vatican’s secret UFO knowledge, and their own wishlists for interviews – all with candid humor, sharp insights, and a touch of skepticism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Magic, Deception & Intelligence Tradecraft

• Magic as Psychological Warfare: Jesse gives a live demonstration (04:01–05:04) of a classic “force” card trick to illustrate how magicians use hidden information – paralleling how intelligence agencies and interviewers assess people’s “tells” for truth and deception.
  • Jesse: “Having inside information and being able to ask people questions you know the answers to, and then seeing how they dance around… you can see if they’re lying or telling the truth.” (05:57)
• Relevance to UFO Secrecy: The team draws analogies to government interviews, media ops, and the challenge of discerning truth from psychological manipulation.

2. High-Profile Interviews & Assessing Credibility

• The group discusses the most meaningful interviews they've conducted, with Jesse and Chris naming Malmgren (an alleged insider) as one of the most significant due to his global intelligence connections and ambiguous legacy in UAP history. (18:23–20:00)
• Physical Evidence vs. Anecdote: Jesse recounts the investigation into Peter Khoury, whose anomalous hair sample story arguably produced some of the only — if still controversial — biological evidence in the field. (20:37–21:20)
  • Jesse: “It wasn’t like he had this hair tested, and then goes, ‘Oh, yeah, I saw a blonde and Asian alien’—the story came first, and then the evidence appeared to match. That for me was the big ‘oh my god’ moment.” (21:19)
• Behind the Scenes: They discuss the logistics of flying in interviewees, sourcing evidence, and the role of “gatekeepers” and shadowy players to legacy programs. (23:34–24:44)

3. Dream Guests & The Holy Grail of Interviews

• No Tim Taylor? Tim Taylor is identified as the current “white whale” in the UAP scene due to his enigmatic presence at the crossroads of aerospace, intelligence, and anomalous phenomena—but is off-limits for the dream guest list. (13:19–13:29, 24:44)
• Spielberg & Chris Carter: Both cited for their cultural influence and rumored insider knowledge. Questions abound about how much real lore is embedded in entertainment, and if figures like Carter (X-Files creator) or Spielberg built in nods to classified knowledge. (25:00–27:51)
• Vatican Secrets & Religious Figures: Chris expresses his “dream interview” would be the Pope, aiming to pierce the shield of Vatican secrecy about the infamous Magenta Crash and alleged NHI contact. (68:13)
• Monastic Remote Viewers: Jesse discusses the rumor of a Vermont Carthusian monk involved in clandestine psychic/UFO programs—a legend unearthed from remote viewing lore and persistent myth. (75:07–83:47)

4. Structure, Obfuscation & the Problem of Oversight

• The mechanics of legacy USAPs/SAPs: Gerb unpacks how Air Force bureaucracy, “outside activities,” and SAP cover offices evolved to keep key programs outside normal oversight, referencing public documents like SAF/AA histories. (54:50–57:20)
• Why No Physicists? Shock at the claim that current UAP crash retrieval programs exclude physicists, instead relying mostly on materials scientists—fueling hypotheses about compartmentalization, deliberate hobbling, and the chilling effect of post-Manhattan Project paranoia. (58:17–62:08)
  • Chris: “If you’re struggling to get it to work, why aren’t you bringing in top physicists?”
  • Jesse: “Maybe the lesson after the atom bomb was that theoretical physics itself became dangerous and needed to be compartmentalized...”

5. The Russian Parallel & International Shadow Play

• A digression covers Russian (and Nazi) undersea programs, crashes, and the secret history of technology races between the U.S. and Russia, citing the Yamanto mountain range and Baltic Sea anomaly, positing that underwater and under-ice UFO research is likely common. (40:11–43:05)

6. When Sources Say "Cut That Out"

• The hosts discuss pragmatic and ethical red lines about what to publish, what to cut to avoid genuine security risks or personal reprisals, as well as the pressures of researching sensitive topics. (63:08–67:32)

7. Inside Baseball: Personal Coping Strategies & Philosophy

• The emotional burden and “mental game” of staying immersed in the UAP/phenomena world: To stay sane, the hosts rely on regular exercise, social support, and compartmentalization. (91:01–92:59)
  • Jesse: “A lot of people think the brunt of the work is just the episode, but it’s all the research, the endless reading backlog, the news… the pressure’s extreme.” (93:06)
  • The group is grateful for camaraderie in an otherwise isolating field.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Demonstrating Psychological Magic:
  “All those variables seem to disappear and you’re just left with nothing to it.”
  – Jesse, (01:21)

• Information as Power in Magic and Disclosure:
  “Having inside information and being able to ask people questions you know the answers to, and then seeing how they dance around... you can see if they're lying or telling the truth.”
  – Jesse, (05:57)

• On Peter Khoury’s Physical Evidence:
  “It wasn’t even the anomalous nature of the hair, it was that it corroborated his anomalous story. That for me was the big ‘oh my god’ moment.”
  – Jesse, (21:20)

• On the Elusiveness of Key Government Figures:
  “If there is still a Majestic 12... I’d love to interview someone like Bobby Ray Inman–have someone with a top of the pyramid view.”
  – Chris, (35:35)

• The Compartmentalization Problem:
  "It seems the programs used to have top minds and physicists, mid-century. Then something happened and it was like, 'We cannot have these guys.' Was it an event, a leak, or just projections of what happens if this gets into the wrong hands?"
  – Jesse, (61:36)

• Religion, Transcendence, and the Vatican:
  “I would want to interview the Pope. There’s so much — the Magenta crash, the Vatican archives, the knowledge they sit on about UFOs.”
  – Chris, (68:13)

• Personal Toll of UFO Journalism:
  “If you view the topic and think about it, your knowledge is as wide as an ocean but as deep as a puddle… there’s just so much to learn… it’d be impossible to cover all of it at once.”
  – Gerb, (97:19)

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Dream Guests: The Wish List

(Segment: 24:44–85:13)

• Chris Ramsay: Tim Taylor (off-limits), Steven Spielberg, Bobby Ray Inman, the Pope
• Jesse Michels: Chris Carter (X-Files creator), Dan Burisch, the mysterious Carthusian monk
• UAPGerb: Dave Grusch (for open fireside chat), Edward “Pete” Aldrich, Donald Kerr

(See deeper discussion between 24:44 and 85:13 for reasoning/context.)

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Lighter Moments

• Magic trick in the diner, with Gerb unable to figure out the force (03:06–06:46).
• Vatican chess anecdote: Chris shakes hands with the Cardinal Secretary of State by accident, missing his chance to ask about UFO secrets (73:01).
• Chess, wrestling, jiu jitsu, and dealing with anxiety–how the hosts decompress and keep grounded. (91:01–92:59)
• Poking fun at the grind of daily UFO news: “At best, it’s information everyone wants. At worst, it's literally high school drama.” – Jesse, (96:43)

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Conclusion

This episode is a smorgasbord of high-level insider talk, psychological insight, and personal reflection on the origins and boundaries of both the UFO mystery and those who chase it. With three deeply knowledgeable voices, the conversation moves easily between serious investigation and light-hearted banter, demonstrating the camaraderie, skepticism, and wonder that keep this community pushing into the unknown.

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Useful Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:50–06:46 | Magic, psychology, intelligence parallels | | 18:23–21:20 | Top interviews and anomalous physical evidence | | 24:44–34:17 | Dream guests & fireside chat with Dave Grusch | | 35:17–43:05 | Behind the curtain: Inman, Kerr, global perspectives | | 58:17–62:08 | Why no physicists in crash projects?/Compartmentalization| | 68:13–74:32 | Vatican as gatekeeper, religious angles, secret archives | | 75:07–83:47 | The “silent” monk and monastic remote viewers | | 91:01–94:02 | Coping mechanisms, exercise, living the UAP life | | 96:43–97:47 | "High school drama" & reflecting on specialization |

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(For full context, the above skips all ad reads and focuses only on the core discussion.)

Transcript

[Jesse]

Morning decisions. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.

[Chris]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

[Gerb]

Now, I was looking for fun ways

[Chris]

to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

[Gerb]

So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Chris]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Jesse]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan required. $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See, terms we are completely misdirected.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Even when you're holding onto something as solid as a deck of cards.

[Gerb]

Because you talked about how just. And to this day I've been trying to think about how you did that. And I just have no idea. I have no idea where I was tricked or where I'm not remembering or where that happened. I just. I have no idea.

[Chris]

I've seen him do the thing with the glass where the glass just moves out. It's probably the simplest thing, but I fucking love it. Or the straw floats out and the straw's floating.

[Gerb]

I mean, I'd never seen a magic show before.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

I really hadn't even seen card tricks.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Not a lot of people have. They've seen videos of it, but seeing it in person is way different because you're always. You're one step removed on video. So it's like watching a stage show and you go, oh, there's smoke and mirrors, there's trapdoors. Right. But then when it's in front of you, all those variables seem to disappear and you're just left with nothing to it.

[Chris]

Yeah. The close up is crazy.

[Jesse]

You have the frustrating thing happen to you where your suspension of disbelief is unwilling. Yeah. It's not willing. You're not like, oh, I'll suspend it for the sake of the trick. You're like, no, I've exhausted my resources. I don't know how you did that.

[Gerb]

Yeah. On the videos you can stop it, go back frames, try to investigate and

[Jesse]

you can see how it. I did that on video. That particular one. There's certain tricks that, like you have to cut around or certain tricks that you have to like, do, like. If you look at mentalism, most of the stuff happens off camera and then when the cameras are rolling, it's a lot of wordplay. I'll say that we never met before today, right? You know, like these type of things and you're like. It creates the illusion that you didn't set anything up. And then you go, we didn't set anything up. Right. But you don't know that you were set up if you've handed me your phone before, you know, because I was doing some pre show magic trick to you and I did something and you're like, well, I blew your mind. But now I have all this secret information on you that I'm going to reveal throughout the next hour. And, you know, and, and, and, you know, play look at me and think of this thing and like do all these, you know, performative bits. Which is fine, but yeah, it's not actual minor any.

[Gerb]

Well, I think you have a point about the, the shows being in person because, like, I haven't felt that amount of awe in like a interaction with a person since I was a kid. Like, I was, I was on the edge of my seat when you were doing those tricks. It all culminated with the, the plastic bar. I boggled my mind because Luigi walked in. That's the first thing I told Luigi

[Jesse]

and he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, been there, done that. Speaking of which, here, I'll give you, I'll give you a little demonstration. Not on, not an actual magic, but more on how magicians can use magic to obtain information and then how that is perceived to people watching. So, for instance. All right, just go ahead and just take a card out. Yep. Anyone?

[Gerb]

I got a game out.

[Jesse]

Sorry. Yeah, no worries.

[Gerb]

Okay, I'm hiding the number from you.

[Jesse]

Yeah, just have a look at it. You got it? Put it back. All right. But at this point, there's no way any of us know what that card is. Well, sorry, you guys know I have no idea what this card is, Correct?

[Chris]

All right,

[Jesse]

so, all right, just think of this card. Just think of it. If it's going to be like a bit of a poker face scenario. So I don't want you to give away any information. Okay. But I'm going to try to read from your facial expressions or your sort of micro expressions, anything that I can to try and determine what the card is. Is it. Don't answer. Is it red or black? So your right eye, when I said black, moved slightly. I'm going to assume it's black. Is it a club Or a spade. Now, okay, so, so now you're, you're, you're trying to mask.

[Gerb]

Right?

[Jesse]

And so it tells me it's a spade. Once again. Okay, now is it a picture card or a number card? Okay, it's a number card. All right, Is it high or low? High or low? It's low. So it's a low spade. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay, there's a free choice. You could have chosen any card. All right, right here, look at this. On the finger.

[Chris]

What the. What the.

[Jesse]

Is that it? Four spades. All right, so now here's, here's the thing. So I didn't actually read your micro expressions. This is all performative. I already knew what card you chose. How? Well, there's two ways that I can know that. Either I force the card upon you or I peek the card after. Right. There's two ways to do that. So if I force the card on you, even though it felt like that was a free, completely free choice, it wasn't. It felt free. It wasn't. Right. So this is a force. So now you're being given the card that I want you to. So now that I have information that you don't know I have, I can ask you to hide that information from me. And now I can see what that looks like.

[Chris]

Oh, for later, read the tell.

[Jesse]

Okay, so now I have information on what your tells are. And this, for magicians or mentalists or even CIA is really, really valuable information. So having inside information and being able to ask people questions you know the answers to, and then seeing how they dance around the answers, knowing they're trying to avoid what the truth is, you can see if they're lying or if they're telling the truth.

[Gerb]

So even the, Even the card you offered it, you know, that's a fresh pack.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

You opened it, you cut the deck once, spread it, and of jokers included, what, 54 cards in there. You offered me up the one you wanted me to pick, and I tried to game out what you wanted me to pick and choose a different one. So I just don't know how I was led to pick the one card you wanted me to.

[Jesse]

It blows my mind. Isn't that interesting, though? Yeah, but that's the whole crux of the trick, because if you knew that that was even in play, that I was, and you suspected I was trying to force you a card, so you went in a different direction. But if you knew that that card was forced, you know, that would change the dynamic of the, of how I was sort of Trying to read that information. And so it's really interesting because you take magic and I just apply it to the whole ic, you know, space. And I go, oh, my God. Like, they're literally doing magic tricks. Yeah. And you see it on these interviews. You see it, you know, when you talk to them in person. You know. You know they know things, but they're playing dumb.

[Gerb]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And so, you know, I. When I do magic tricks to these people, you know, I get to see. Thank you. Thank you. I get to see what their tells are before the podcast.

[Chris]

Mm.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And then I grill them on these questions. Probably shouldn't even be saying this on camera, you know, because they might be watching this. But that's the idea, right? Is that you get to. And then. Now I understand. Yeah. You know how they shift in their seat when they're trying to hide information or. You know what I mean? So it helps.

[Gerb]

Well, even you. You told me I was giving off micro expressions after you said that. When I was answering, I felt like my eye twitching, and I said, oh, crap, am I giving it away?

[Jesse]

And you slightly were. That's the thing, too. That's the other psychological subject.

[Gerb]

Thank you very much.

[Jesse]

Thank you.

[Chris]

Thank you.

[Jesse]

Thanks. Yeah, there is. There is like, a whole psychological layer to trying to hide things. So it's, you know, don't think of a black cat type idea. Same thing happens. And. And also, there's, like, certain. I learned this from a friend, Spidey. He does. He has this behavioral arts channel. He, like, looks at people lying, but when people scratch their nose. So when you're lying, it actually, like, increases the blood flow to your face, which sl. And this is where the Pinocchio lie comes from, because your. Your nose slightly swells, like, on a microscopic level. And so that's why people would. But it doesn't mean it's a lie. They're just trying to dance around something else.

[Gerb]

So has there ever been anybody you've had on the pod that. Because you're able to gauge out their micro expressions or when they're lying, you have just known. Are feeding you a bunch of baloney?

[Jesse]

No, because you can't tell what they're lying about.

[Gerb]

Okay.

[Jesse]

You can only tell there's, like, some inconsistency in what they're saying. So, like, you know, like, lie detectors, famously aren't lie detectors. Right.

[Gerb]

It just measures your heart rate. Cortisol levels.

[Jesse]

Yeah, exactly. So it's telling you, oh, this person is stressed. You don't know what about. It could be about trying to hide the truth.

[Gerb]

Right.

[Jesse]

But it could also be about this reminds them of when they were a kid and they got beat up for saying this or. Yeah. Whatever that is.

[Gerb]

Yeah, I know. We talked about this, too. Jesse just kind of guess on your

[Jesse]

pod that you felt may have been

[Gerb]

kind of taking you for a ride. We talked about that as well. And we talked about just the guest that you had the hardest time taking their story at face value was Charles hall, for sure.

[Chris]

Are we in the pod right now?

[Jesse]

Yeah. Break that wall.

[Chris]

Yeah. Well, Chris and I did Charles hall together when. Jesus, that sounds weird. We did an interview with Charles hall

[Gerb]

when Chris was telling Luigi and I when I was out here last time. And that's when Chris was doing impressions of some other prominent figures in the subject, too, that Luigi and I were just loving.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah. Who's this? Who's I. Who's I impersonating? Bledsoe about the hormones.

[Gerb]

Luigi was cackling all time, man.

[Jesse]

It's just like the way he's so soft spoke and he's like, oh, thank you. I've seen so many of his videos and, like, you just see these lights, these, you know, these. I don't know what they are. But then you hear his, like, soft voice in the background. Thank you. Trailing off at the end of the videos.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

There's the kind of infamous video, like, the last contact of him doing that.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He always says, cut the football chatter. Cut the. Yeah, cut the football chatter. Yeah. What do you make of that? What do you make of, like, all that stuff?

[Gerb]

Well, Jesse and I were talking about this last night. You know, he is Die Hard wants to talk to Tim Taylor.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

That seems to be the biggest number one. Yeah.

[Jesse]

To this puzzle, because at least that's your way. Whale.

[Chris]

It is, I think.

[Jesse]

Yeah, Yeah. I think it'll happen.

[Chris]

I put him on. I made a vision board and he's on it.

[Jesse]

Cut to Jesse's shrine with candles and, like, Tim Tannic Satanic. Yeah. Like Pentagram.

[Chris]

Oh, it sounds so creepy because it seems I really want to do it. Yeah. He's the intersection between trippy stuff and then real nuts and bolts era space. But, like, really trippy stuff. Not even just like, UFO work.

[Gerb]

Like lady.

[Chris]

Like time travel and, you know, there's.

[Gerb]

Oh, yeah, the Bermuda T. Townsend Brown stuff.

[Jesse]

Yeah. The fact that his name came up at Charles hall thing was interesting, too. Like, Mary Therese's wife was just like Timothy.

[Chris]

And Bledsoe said that she. He was writing a book with Townsend Brown's Daughter.

[Jesse]

Have you contacted her who was writing a book?

[Chris]

Tim Taylor.

[Jesse]

Oh, wow. And didn't Townsend Brown's daughter leave some type of Amazon review on his book?

[Chris]

Yes, yes. So there is a connection there.

[Jesse]

There's definitely a connection, yeah.

[Gerb]

Have you reached out to the daughter?

[Chris]

I have. Well, she was on a phone call in my original Towns Brown documentary and so we'll occasionally talk on the phone and she's fascinating.

[Jesse]

That's so wild. Yeah, he's just such a. I think it's more of like he's this weird puzzle piece that you don't know where to put in the puzzle. And that's what's so intriguing about this. This man is like, it's not necessarily how he's tied together with everything, but just like what, like what is his role here? He seems like this transient sort of goes wherever he wants entity. But at the same time I get the feeling might be an experiencer from having, you know, so much interest in the topic and talking to Streber, what's his face, Charles hall and all these other experiencers. Bledsoe, I don't know. I don't know what to make of him.

[Gerb]

It's weird because Tim Taylor doesn't cross over into my lane of studying the programs at all. Like Tim Taylor's name never comes up.

[Jesse]

He's an aerospace corp.

[Chris]

Right?

[Jesse]

Right.

[Gerb]

Yeah, NASA. But still in terms of like actual program efforts, his name has never really come up as a key player ever. Which is interesting because then he's gallivanting around with Bledsoe, with Charles Hall.

[Jesse]

Yeah. You would think that he would keep a lower profile if he was really in the, in the deep part of the program. What do you think chronic migraine is? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox Onobotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical History, muscle or nerve conditions, including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more.

[Chris]

Got a Sam's Cafe pizza. Order up.

[Gerb]

You know the best part about this spicy Italian sausage? I voted for this topping. Yeah, just another perk of being a member.

[Chris]

Come join us. Sam's Club. I think he was part of some. Well, I think the program is probably a misnomer and I think there are probably a lot of different. You know, you have this phenomena which is sort of multifaceted, and then you have whatever's going on with Dan Sherman, like, with the, you know, like humming a tone. Yeah, exact. Project Preserve Destiny is definitely stepwise different than reverse engineering A craft is the stuff you're tracking. And so those two things are different. And then is there some sort of, you know, like, looking glass style time travel thing? Like probably, you know, if you take Wild Bazaar face value, they were at least looking at little time perturbations, you know, and then, you know, is there some group that thinks it can time travel? Like, there's a. There's a. He wrote a book called Launch Fever. It's his autobiography. And he writes about flying back and forth from between Florida and the Bahamas. And he says time moved differently there. And it's all. To me, it's like all this, like, weird coded language. Like it's island time and it's really strange.

[Jesse]

Oh, that's. That's an interesting way to see it.

[Chris]

And then simultaneously, he's telling Chris Bledsoe's son that, like, he's part of this time travel group and Townsend Brown was the president of it. And Townsend Brown always conceived of himself as a time traveler. Like, I literally asked Townsend Brown's daughter, like, what is. If your father is a time traveler, what is he up to now? And she goes, he's probably rearranging the math on the most frontier science to make sure we don't blow ourselves up. And then you think about the UFO nukes thing is so crazy.

[Jesse]

Some sort of time traveling superhero that's saving us all from imminent doom.

[Chris]

Yeah, right.

[Jesse]

Or this idea. Also, did you ever ask Malmgren about Tim?

[Chris]

So Malmgren, at the end of his life was going really deep on Townsend Brown, right? And was like, had all these like, notes on him and he apparently so. He said he had a foreign intelligence source that gave him documentation of Townsend Brown collaborating with Tesla on some gravity stuff, which is crazy. And, like, I couldn't get too much deeper than that. So, you know, I don't know. And then on Tim Taylor, I don't think I ever asked him. I pro. I probably, knowing me, I probably did. And then he probably didn't say anything. That's why I don't remember.

[Jesse]

But.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

Are we all in solidarity that Malm Green was likely CIA?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

I don't know enough to put him in that category, but I'll trust both of your judgments, I think.

[Chris]

I think.

[Jesse]

For sure, yeah.

[Chris]

Because he was in. He's talking about Primakov and Dobryn and. And Pompidou, like a global stage sort of guy. And then he was at Yale and. And at Oxford before that. And then he was living at. He had Paul Mellon's walking stick at his apartment. And I'm holding it. Paul Mellon founded the CIA. And then he goes, my best friend Tom Farmer or whatever. And then you look up Tom Farmer. He was the General Counsel of the CIA.

[Jesse]

It would be a big oversight not to have him in the CIA.

[Gerb]

He had IDA as kind of his NOC position to the Institute for Defense

[Chris]

Analyses, which he literally said was a cover for his work on the National Security Council. So this whole Deedeen Johnson takedown around him not working on the National Security Council, he already addressed before he died with this other interview of Robin Laird. So.

[Jesse]

Wow. I'm still blown away that you got that interview.

[Chris]

Yeah, I am, too, man. I felt it. Felt like really like it. Yeah, it did. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gerb]

What would you guys say are the most important interviews you guys have done?

[Jesse]

I think Malm Grin is probably the most important interview any of us have done. Yeah. One of them, at least. At the very top.

[Chris]

Yeah. Mal grand or Crush for me,

[Jesse]

I mean, I would. I would push that question off to you. You've only done. You've only done a handful on camera.

[Gerb]

Yeah, I definitely. Off camera stuff.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

And like, we talked about it beforehand, specifically about Air Force stuff. That's.

[Jesse]

That's like.

[Gerb]

That's my Tim Taylor to get specific people on camera that have worked in those programs.

[Chris]

What about you, Chris?

[Jesse]

Most important? Yeah. I don't know. It's hard to say because that would. That would mean that you would have to acknowledge that what they're saying is a sort of agreeable truth. Right. Where I'm.

[Chris]

Or not. It has a ripple effect.

[Jesse]

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's that's true. That's true. I would say. I think, you know, it's gonna set. People can make what they want of it. But I think Lou was a really important interview for the trajectory of my channel. You know, him coming early onto the channel obviously got a lot of eyes on a channel, and so, you know, believe or don't believe anything Lou says. Regardless of that, first of all, he, you know, he took his time to come here and be on the podcast. Always be thankful he did that. But the offset of that was now that this, you know, created some type of eventful thing where now people look at the podcast differently, like, oh, this is, you know, he's getting big guests. And so after that, I was able to, you know, get some really interesting people, even whistleblowers such as Jeremy Weeks come on. And. And so I think it was important in the trajectory of my channel, and it felt serendipitous the way it happened, too, I would say. But Jeremy Weeks is another one. Jeremy Weeks is one that.

[Chris]

Yeah, it's a trippy story.

[Jesse]

Yeah. So super trippy. But actually, maybe Peter Curry.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

I feel like that one kind of. Even though it did pretty well, I still think it went under the radar with, you know, what we're proposing and what was brought forward. Like it was some physical evidence. It was physical evidence.

[Chris]

Wild.

[Jesse]

It's, you know, we're not. It's not hearsay. It's physical evidence.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

It doesn't prove aliens, but it's anomalous physical evidence that we. That we have.

[Chris]

And anomalous physical evidence that's biological. It's not. Just usually you hear like, oh, we did mass spec on, you know, this material and that has isotope ratios, you know, whatever. You're talking about a hair.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I was pulled off the being.

[Jesse]

And what. What trips me out more is how it corroborates his story and not the other way around. So it wasn't like he had this hair tested, and they were like, oh, it's half Asian, half Basque. It's blond, it's immune to AIDS without the CCR5 gene deletion. And then he goes, oh, yeah, you know, I had a blonde and an Asian naked alien in my room. And that's not how it happens. It was that story first, and then you get this hair back. That actually kind of corroborates what the heck this guy's saying. Like, that, for me, was the big oh, my God moment. It wasn't even, like, the anomalous nature of the hair. It was like that. It corroborated his anomalous story. This is the skiff. No windows, no WI fi, and ideally no one quietly collecting your data in the background. Which brings us to your phone. See, most people think of their carrier as just the company that gives them bars. But traditional carriers have access to way more than that. Your number, your metadata, your location patterns, your account information. In a world where data gets leaked, sold, brokered and tracked, that should make everybody a little uncomfortable. Kape is America's privacy first mobile carrier. It gives you premium reliable cell service, but it's built from the ground up around privacy and security. One of their features I think is genuinely wild, is identifier rotation. Your phone has an IMSI, basically a unique subscriber ID tied to your SIM. Kape can rotate that identifier every 24 hours. So to the network you look like a different subscriber every day. They also give you two secondary text only numbers so you don't have to hand out your real number to every app, website, store, delivery service, or random form that asks for it. And unlike traditional carriers that hold onto your metadata, Kape deletes call and text metadata after 24 hours. So if you watch Area 52 and you care about privacy, go to Cape Co Area 52 and use code AREA52 for 33% off your first six months. That's Cape Co Area 52. Code AREA52 for 33% OFF your first six months. Thank you to Kape for sponsoring this video.

[Gerb]

How did you get in contact with him in the first place? And did you fly him in from Australia?

[Jesse]

I did. Wow. Yeah, flew him in from Australia. I got in contact with him through. What's his name? Horace Drew. So Horace Drew was the geneticist who, who did the tests, the genetic test on the hair. He's also been in and around the UFO space quite a lot. He's worked with Bill Chalker, who wrote the book Hair of the Alien. Bill Chalker, who's like a respected UFO researcher in Australia. And Horace was also the person who introduced me to Jeremy Weeks. He was the one who decoded Jeremy's initial binary sequence after. You know, I think it was Linda Molt Howe. She, she didn't know what to do with it. She. It resembled binary. She didn't really know how to read it. Took horse like a few weeks and then.

[Gerb]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And then cj, you know, came out. Yeah.

[Gerb]

But yeah, outside of Tim Taylor, who would like your guys's three dream guests currently living be that you guys would do Anything to get on your pods.

[Jesse]

Okay, let's do, let's do one at a time. Okay, you first.

[Chris]

Oh, man.

[Jesse]

No Tim Taylor. Yeah, no Tim, that's already vision board. Thank you, sir.

[Chris]

It's funny because it's either like, you know, I either want to interview, you know, people like Spielberg or like, you know, people who are like in the, like, you know, really clearly, like know more than they let on, like have, you know, clearly have some interesting sources. I think that would be really cool. And it's either that or like, I always never know how to answer that because it used to be like more high signal people and now it's like, you know, I've my audience kind of hated on this, but I love this interview I just did with this guy Rolf, this Doe guy. He was. I disagree with him about Doe oversight when it comes to UFOs. Yeah, but the. I like somebody who's experienced something kind of ontologically trippy, but then they can also make sense of it in some greater theoretical framework. So anybody like that. And I felt like Malm Grim was like that too, where you had to like meta perspective of like being able to make sense of it. You were like an actor in the world. You weren't just identifying with the experience in this way that, you know, that's, that's the only thing and you're sort of like, you know, I don't know, like, like, like selling everything off of that.

[Jesse]

Experience, return philosopher.

[Chris]

Experience return philosopher. Yeah, but being able to make sense of it and you've experienced something really trippy.

[Gerb]

Yeah, yeah, Spielberg's a good one.

[Jesse]

Spielberg's a great answer.

[Gerb]

You could get so much value out of even just asking him, hey, why did you include Lockheed and TRW in Close Encounters? Why did you have those crates? He probably would have some interesting answers

[Jesse]

the whole Project Serpo trip. Yeah.

[Gerb]

Tell me about the lore behind the Abyss creatures.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, he. That was James Cameron, but. Oh, oh, that's. But still, I mean, Spielberg was a producer. Yeah, but Spielberg was a producer on Back to the Future.

[Gerb]

Yeah, right.

[Jesse]

You know, and then obviously ET Is another one that is pretty on the nose in terms of like, you know, them studying this being and whatnot. Yeah. I think in that same vein, if we were to stick around, you know, the entertainment industry, I think Chris Carter for me, would be a big one.

[Gerb]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Because same questions go to him in the season finale that Tim Taylor mentions in American Cosmic or what's her book?

[Chris]

American Cosmic.

[Jesse]

American Cosmic.

[Chris]

Where they're taken to the.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And he's like, does this place look familiar? And they're like, well, this is actually a season finale of X Files, and it's an actual range. So he must have had. Especially after that pilot episode.

[Gerb]

Yes, yes. One episode, one Deep Throat.

[Jesse]

That's.

[Gerb]

That's the biggest it, dude.

[Jesse]

It. They go to an Air Force base and they see testing of like light triangles blipping around. And then this triangle, massive, you know, what looks like a TR3B or, you know, military.

[Gerb]

Very similar. Very similar.

[Jesse]

And after that, immediately it was like freak of the Week for like.

[Gerb]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

I don't know how many seasons.

[Gerb]

Creature features.

[Jesse]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Gerb]

Well, that craft, the artwork from that. I talk about this all the time. Was was commissioned to an art forensic artist named Bill McDonald. He also designed a lot of the craft for, like, Roswell depictions and so forth. But Bill McDonald, that craft, he called it the XF131 Super Sentinel. And that was based off of a meeting with two Lockheed and two Northrop engineers at a Denny's in Antelope Valley in 1992. These engineers worked out of Helendale and Tejon.

[Chris]

What?

[Gerb]

So you can look up the original artwork. It's called the Tehachapi triangle, dated 1992 from Bill McDonald. This is allegedly a real craft.

[Chris]

That's crazy.

[Jesse]

I didn't know that.

[Gerb]

And I've talked to Bill McDonald as well, who won't give up the engineers names. But, you know, as according to him, this is a real craft.

[Jesse]

Might have been in this diner right here.

[Chris]

There you go. The other thing about the X Files is they were real. You know, the guy Bannister was this guy at the FBI. Ironically, Lee Harvey Oswald was working out of his building at 554 Camp street or 544 Camp street in New Orleans, which is crazy. But he is the X Files guy. He was the guy. Like this guy Fred Chrisman worked under him. He was another FBI guy who showed up at the Maury island incident, which was literally like, adjacent to the Kenneth Arnold sighting, which was another UFO experience where somebody said his dog got killed by UFO slag coming down or whatever.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So it's this weird. So, yeah, to your point, like, the X Files was a thing. He's paying homage to this real thing.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And then, I mean, even you look at Nick Pope, who is, you know, kind of the Scully or the molder of the UK at the UFO desk for the mod, which is interesting, too. He had a 1, 800 number. Essentially. It was like this phone number that you would call in. And you know, I don't know what to make of that. I didn't know what to make of that when he told me. And like, that does sound like a position they would just give someone to like. All right, you just do this. But then accidentally falling into some real stuff.

[Chris]

Well, it's like the weird desk at the CIA.

[Jesse]

Exactly.

[Chris]

That they say, you know, they say Kit Green was on it. Then they say Ron Pandolfi took over.

[Jesse]

Yeah. It seems like a lot of weird desk. Yeah, they seem. But like, that one almost seemed performative to me.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

Public number. But then in. In that same vein, like you're getting calls from actual experiencers and he's actually going out and seeing these things.

[Chris]

Y.

[Jesse]

Right. Which I think is. You know, I would. I would have loved to have that job. That's like a dream job.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

Have you reached out to Chris Carter?

[Jesse]

I don't know how I've had like, people I know try to reach out to him. Him. David Duchovny. Oh, nice. Yeah. What's her name? Jillian Anderson. I'd love to talk to any of them. I'm sure David Duchovny would probably have some really interesting stories.

[Chris]

Well, I think he's a UFO skeptic is what I hear.

[Jesse]

Oh, that's interesting. That would make for a good conversation then. Yeah. I wonder if he's still a skeptic.

[Chris]

I think it's tough now. Right. Like, especially if you're always associated with that. And then you see all this stuff coming out in the news and everybody's coming up to you being like, oh, you're the guy here, Fox Mulder. And then he's. He probably has. He probably feels some pressure to have the correct view on it. And like now I do think the consensus is shifting. Five, six years ago, I don't think it was, you know, popular to say you believe in this stuff. But now.

[Jesse]

How many times do you think he just ended a conversation with. Well, truth is out there.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[Gerb]

But often that's a good choice.

[Jesse]

Or like the. The dude who is smoking. The Smoking Man. Yeah, the episodes.

[Gerb]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

That's like.

[Jesse]

He probably knows some shit.

[Gerb]

Yeah. Mulder's legacy contact. They've been here. They've been here for a long time, guys.

[Chris]

But they also say that like alien hybrids, chain smoke or whatever. Like that's like.

[Jesse]

That's so wild.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Hilarious. How about you?

[Gerb]

My number one would have just be boring. It. It would be, of course, Dave Grush. But in conversation with Dave Grush, not so much an interview, but more so like a fireside chat type situation. Just like, like three, four hours of talking about legacy programs and legacy.

[Jesse]

Have you not had that conversation with Dave Grush?

[Gerb]

That's not. That's not my story to tell.

[Jesse]

Okay, no, but that you said, like, that would be your number one thing you'd like to do. Yes. Oh, I see. I see.

[Gerb]

Yeah. To do like a. A video, right? To sit down, like, three, four hours.

[Jesse]

Oh, I see, I see.

[Gerb]

Just.

[Chris]

I would pay to watch that.

[Jesse]

I would too.

[Gerb]

That would be. That would be my number one dream. I mean, all the way from like, Roswell prior to today.

[Jesse]

I feel like. I feel like it'd be dangerous for Dave Grusch to sit down with you.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

Same reason Dave Grush wouldn't probably sit down with Bob Lazar, where it's like, you guys are going to talk about some stuff that, like, literally you shouldn't be talking about. Yeah, of course.

[Gerb]

Because, like, I've never had a clearance. I can cross lines that he can't without being thrown in jail.

[Jesse]

Should have a button with him. Yeah, like slap the button when you're getting too close to that line because,

[Gerb]

like, I can cross lines that, you know, he will be imprisoned and made an example of if he cross.

[Jesse]

If he.

[Gerb]

He crosses. So I have ability to cross those lines.

[Jesse]

So.

[Gerb]

Yeah, you're right.

[Jesse]

It could be hell of a way to send an invite

[Gerb]

conversation.

[Chris]

So let's do it.

[Jesse]

You know, that.

[Gerb]

That would be. That would be my dream. Just of. Of any guest living. Living or dead.

[Chris]

It'd be amazing. I would love to.

[Jesse]

All right, let's go down the list. Who else?

[Chris]

I think that if that conversation's happened, it would be a sign that we've made a lot of progress because, you know, like, he could be super open about a lot of, like, the deeper stuff. Yeah, it'd be like a very good

[Gerb]

indicator or dates and program evolution, which I just think with how much information has flooded the zone, would be really helpful just to have like a clear and concise. This is how some of the legacy programs were founded. This is how they work. This is what they've evolved into.

[Chris]

Well, you're doing the open source version of what he did at the uap. Atf, I think, is, you know, he was known as like, this really, like, you know, his mind was a steel trap and he was just this like, big database of like, all this stuff,

[Jesse]

you know, but you're both kind of like, cut from the Same cloth. Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying is like when you put two phones together and just had AI talk to each other, it

[Gerb]

would be a great conversation.

[Chris]

That would be.

[Gerb]

I'd be really intrigued to.

[Jesse]

Dude, both of you. Nerding out on acronyms would be the best. You could probably host an hour long podcast where you say no words.

[Gerb]

We could, yeah.

[Jesse]

We could speak in shorthand, entirely in code and acronyms.

[Gerb]

That would be a dream.

[Jesse]

Oh, dude. Right here in this. Dino, let's set it up.

[Gerb]

I would love to.

[Jesse]

This is going to be an extremely busy month.

[Gerb]

I have to watch 104 soccer games,

[Chris]

follow the pre game, the post game, yell useless opinions at the tv.

[Jesse]

It's a lot.

[Gerb]

So I knew that when it comes

[Chris]

to screening for colon cancer, the choice was clear. The Cologuard plus test.

[Gerb]

It can be used at home and

[Chris]

can only take 15 minutes.

[Jesse]

So I can do it during halftime

[Gerb]

and not miss any action. If you are 45 or older and at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with a Cologuard test.

[Chris]

You can also request a [e-mail]

[Jesse]

a burst pipe, a dead water heater, the

[Chris]

AC calling it quits. Who do you call?

[Jesse]

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[Chris]

That's HomeServe.com podcast savings compared to renewal

[Jesse]

price void in Florida.

[Chris]

My number two. Oh, man, Ideal guests. So tough. I think maybe somebody at the like, okay, if there is still a majestic 12, you know, like Helen Coker. Yeah, Well, I would put somebody like a Bobby Ray Inman on it and I'd love to interview somebody like at that level where they have somewhat of a top of the pyramid view. You know, you always hear these like, analogies of like, you know, it's like a bunch of blind men touching an elephant or different parts of an elephant. And it's really hard to like piece together what's actually going on. And you even had, you know, when Jake came on my show and Ross's, it was like, I'm the fingertips, you know, and it's like we don't have all the context. And to me, the most interesting stuff isn't the, like, functional, like what's going on in the form of crash retrieval program. Like, I'm pretty sure that is going on. It's the metaphysical truth behind it. What is going on? What is reality? Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

That we're touching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who would. And you. You think Bobby Raymond would be the closest one to give you a broader sort of.

[Chris]

I don't. That's where. I don't know. And it's interesting because I think with like the MALM Grin thing, like, in retrospect, I think he was. Had much wider of a scope than I ever would have ever imagined. Thank you.

[Jesse]

Thank you. Sorry. Very good.

[Chris]

So, yeah, so I think like you never know with these people. You don't know. You know, maybe like there's a. And then you would guess because he was. I think he was. Thank you. Well, he's NSA director and deputy director. Yeah.

[Gerb]

Just insanely spooky. Now if you were to interview. Oh, thank you, sir. If you were to interview.

[Jesse]

That one has cheese.

[Chris]

Yeah. Oh, no, that, that one did.

[Jesse]

No, it doesn't. This has sauce on it, I think.

[Chris]

No, it's got a little bit of cheese. Oh, it does.

[Gerb]

Oh, no.

[Chris]

Oh, it's all good.

[Jesse]

Do we have one without cheese? We do. Nice. Oh, nice.

[Chris]

Amazing.

[Jesse]

They'll start yet.

[Chris]

Thank you.

[Jesse]

Finding a little bit.

[Chris]

Cut that out a little bitch.

[Jesse]

We're finding out the deepest.

[Gerb]

The deepest secrets of Jesse.

[Jesse]

The deepest bowels of Jesse's.

[Chris]

Which one is which?

[Jesse]

This one here.

[Chris]

Thank you. ICU is going to target me with some cheese now.

[Gerb]

So Jesse, if you were to interview Bobby Ray Inman.

[Jesse]

Yeah, of course.

[Gerb]

Infamously, Jay Anderson has and gotten some eclectic sound bites out of him.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

What would you do differently or ask differently to try and pry more answers out of him? Because I'm of the mind of you. That.

[Jesse]

Great question. You should do this.

[Chris]

That is a great question. I, I think, I think you'd have to hit on. Touch on real specifics.

[Gerb]

Right.

[Chris]

As far as, you know, overlap that he's had in his career with specific people where it seems like, you know, they've. But even then these guys are trained professionals and I think we're especially him and you. It's like these people are running your questions through a filter of like, can talk about, can't talk about. If I, If I can't talk about it, I'm going to ex. You know, if I'm going to look like a sycophant in the future, I'm going to express openness on the thing I can't talk about. And it's a computation and they're professionals at that shit.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And so like, you really have to read the body language. But I do think if you want to, you know, kind of, you know, make them squirm a little bit, you gotta, you know, bring up specifics. I think around like, you know, overlap. But even then you're going off of things that are like, you have two or three data points, you know, and it's, it's ultimately, it's like an open source. Knowledge on this stuff is a fucking minefield. Yeah.

[Jesse]

And all you're going to get is like a little smile out of the corner of their mouth when you ask like some cute question. They go like, in the back of their mind they're like, you have no idea.

[Gerb]

You could have a whole conversation about his time as director of Neuro100, the National Underwater Reconnaissance.

[Chris]

Well, he formed Neuro, right? No.

[Gerb]

Nero was formed in 1969 out of the need to coordinate Navy and CIA DS&T reconnaissance activity. So up until 1974, NEURO was a tug of war between the Navy and DS and T. And I can't remember the specific Secretary of the Navy that kind of wagered some control back. But yeah, around that time frame, Andrew Zhou.

[Chris]

Well, I'd also want to ask about his time at saic, specifically his interest in psychotronic weapons.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

Wagon Hut as well.

[Jesse]

Something we don't hear about often either. And maybe, maybe this is just. I don't hear about it much. But what about the Russians? Are they not doing any underwater reconnaissance? I believe they're doing like water crash retrieval or like water even. Like what, like what Neuro is doing. Like, don't they have their own. We never hear anything from them in terms of the oceans. We always hear, you know, crash.

[Gerb]

I think one of the questions is, is did the Americans beat them to the punch? Because under Neuro, like the Ivy Bells programs and basically various programs to put reconnaissance sensors and activities on the seabed across the entire globe. Maybe we beat them there. So we have denied territory with a lot of the oceans.

[Chris]

I think they have to have a program because they have nuclear subs. And if you have nuclear subs, then you're going to attract this stuff no matter what.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[Chris]

And that's, you know, I think it's a true, true above land, it's true below and then, or underwater. And then they also have this mountain range called the Yamanto Mountain range where they seem to study sort of extended electrodynamics.

[Jesse]

I was like, they're Area 51.

[Chris]

It is, it's A nickel mine. It's near Kazakhstan.

[Jesse]

That's the. The dude who was on Ross Coultard's show. He had. There's this lady, she was like, this opera singer. Her father was a janitor, what she thought was a janitor. And then when he died, he left her with, like, all of these files. And it's a book filled with diagrams of UFOs and, like, trippy science.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And they refer to the ufo Gina.

[Gerb]

Oh, Jean.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah. That was fascinating. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like. And, you know, Ross told me, to this day, no one's been like, oh, that's fake. Or like, there was no. There's been no debunks. No.

[Chris]

Well, the Russians also. There's this great book, guys, Tom August on that talks about this basically great race to, like, take over the tech of Kamler. Stop. Like, the Secret Nazi.

[Gerb]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris]

And if you look at the Avrocar project in the us it was literally this, like, we tested flying saucers. That is not, like, debatable. And they couldn't fly due to this thing called the Kiwanda Effect. But we got all these, like, guys from Kamler Stab the Secret Nazi stuff, like Mita, and we stole all Victor Schauberger's IP using Army counterintel stuff. All of these guys that we're working on reported flying saucers in Nazi Germany. We took over here through Avrocar counterintel, other. Other means. And so they, I think, got a lot of this stuff, too. They were called, like, the, you know, the Habermal designs or the Habermal project. And I think there is. There are exotic lineages of science in both. In both places. And then on the. You know, are they interested in underwater stuff? Dennis Asperg, you know, the Baltic Sea anomaly said that, you know, had a presence out there. Well, yeah. I mean, the Baltic Sea is obviously of very strategic importance, and it seems like they're interested in this. An object underwater.

[Jesse]

That makes sense. Okay. Number two. Oh, me. Thank you. Thank you.

[Chris]

Thank you.

[Jesse]

Everything okay? Everything's delicious. You know, I don't know if I'd go towards, you know, anybody that I don't know are. We. Are. This is living like. Living like we'd have an opportunity to. I think Dan Burrish.

[Gerb]

Nice.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah. Dan Burrish would be a big. And obviously, you know, Bob Lazar is up there. I think he's everyone's number one. Yeah, but Dan Burrish, I think, because he's limited himself to not doing any of these interviews ever. Like, you Know, since the early 2000s when he came out. I think he would probably have. I don't. I don't even know how that would go down. There's so many weird stories I hear around Dan Burch and, like, that he's under house arrest somewhere in Canada, and that, like, do not approach. Like, he's being literally babysat by, like, ex MJ12, like, type cats that you can't even get close to.

[Chris]

Ex MJ12 guys are babysitting him.

[Gerb]

Like, MJ12 deputies, essentially.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Like, you, like, enforcement army. Like, once you're out of the MJ12 scope, you're not allowed to just lead a normal life. Ideal. You're under, like. Like a mafia type district surveillance. And so he's got, like. Yeah, that type of activity.

[Chris]

His story is, though, one of the weirdest.

[Jesse]

So strange because there are things that, like, corroborate other people's accounts. Incredibly, there are credible. You know, the fact that. Where was that university that he went to to, like, do the public speaking event on molecular biology?

[Gerb]

I can't remember.

[Jesse]

And that's on paper.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You know, like, he was.

[Chris]

And it was Stony Brook.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And then. And which is, you know, a place where a lot of really bright minds went to discuss things.

[Chris]

Extremely bright minds. It's like a center of, like, really spooky physics, I think that's right.

[Jesse]

Yeah. So. And then afterwards, to have his, you know, schooling completely erased. Not unlike Bob Lazar, where you can't track him. But we do have this talk that he did at this really prestigious, you know, school. And so, you know, how do. How do people reconcile those two facts? Like, you have really, really interesting corroborative evidence of this guy being who he says he is, even. And then, you know, take it a little further. He also got into the program kind of the same way that Bob did through Edward Teller. Yeah.

[Gerb]

Teller.

[Chris]

Yeah. He recruited him.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And.

[Chris]

Or according to him.

[Jesse]

But then.

[Chris]

And then there's also, I think, a photo of him with Mike McConnell, who's NSA director. Navy admiral.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

Clint from Night Shift is pretty positive on that, but I don't think it's conclusive yet. Okay. But he's really high confidence on it. But I don't. I don't think it's been definitive because

[Chris]

this researcher, Brian Jackson, says that McConnell viewed him like a son, the son he never had. And then his son died in a weird way. And it's like they swapped souls or something. And I. I don't know what to make of it.

[Jesse]

It's Also interesting is that Burch claimed that these. These beings were sort of us from the future. Right. These two different timelines that have, like, separated, and that both of them ended up being these breakaway civilizations on, you know, Zeta or whatever, Orion, and that they're trying to help us steer clear of what is, like, imminent doom for this planet, which would have been having Hillary Clinton elected.

[Gerb]

No way.

[Jesse]

Yeah. That's like. That's the one thing that would have, like, screwed our planet up was having Hillary elected. Now, if you look at Hillary and, you know, we talk to a lot of people, it seems like she was going to be the disclosure. There were efforts to do that. Right. So it kind of corroborates what Dan was saying. Whereas, like, oh, that might have absolutely destroyed our timeline.

[Chris]

I have to say, for some reason, that is hilarious. It's like Hillary Clinton is the apocalyptic. Right, right.

[Jesse]

And, like. Yeah. To no one's surprise, I think.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, naturally.

[Jesse]

Yeah. I mean, and what. I mean, there's probably an Epstein connection to be made there, too. You know, I'd be curious to know if Epstein was interested at all in Dan Burrish or Bob Lazar.

[Chris]

We should search that.

[Jesse]

We should search it up. Let's do right now.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Gerb]

Jesse, could you pass me the ketchup, please?

[Chris]

Got you, brother.

[Jesse]

Sir. Because I mean, just be careful. Bob. Bob. Early 90s would have been, like, a celebrity.

[Gerb]

Right, right.

[Jesse]

And this guy, you know, Epstein, was obviously highly interested in trippy physics. So what did you tell me yesterday about, like, the Los Alamos scientists, the physicist?

[Chris]

So Epstein has, like, hours recorded with this guy, Steve Bannon, who's probably a spook himself.

[Jesse]

And, you know, he's like, Trump's guy, right?

[Chris]

Trump's guy. Operative from the 20 from 2016 era. And they're talking and he goes, why'd you, you know, put Zorro Ranch, where it is, in New Mexico? And he starts going on about retired Los Alamos physics physicists being in the proximity, and he want him wanting to have conversations with these guys. And you're like, what the fuck? Like, who's literally targeting our most sensitive programs? And by the way, Bill Richardson, I think, was Secretary of Energy under Bill Clinton. I believe he was a Clinton crony for sure. And, like, he was governor of New Mexico. And so I think that there's some sort of connection there, too.

[Jesse]

Let's see.

[Gerb]

Let's see, Bob.

[Jesse]

Oh, there's a lot of Lazar, but then, like, there's this artist and Karen Lazar. There's all These. So I'm just gonna look under Bob Lazarus. No results under Bob Lazar, but plenty of results under just Lazar. I'm sorry, Bob. I'm not trying to imply that, you know, if you're listening, just if they were speaking about him, but if they were speaking about him as well, because, you know, he sends out feelers.

[Chris]

Look up. Look up Casimir, which is zero point energy. Because I. I've heard rumors that Epstein was obsessed with the Kazimir.

[Jesse]

So K A Z I, M I,

[Chris]

R C A S I M I

[Jesse]

R. Couldn't have been further. Casimir loading. Oh, weird.

[Chris]

Come up.

[Jesse]

No, it's just my phone just, like, bugged out.

[Chris]

Classic. When you look up Epstein's interest in 0.9.

[Jesse]

Dude, I'm telling you, everything's frozen right now. I can't do anything on my phone.

[Chris]

That happened to me in my McKinnon interview, which hopefully will be out by.

[Jesse]

Yeah, Gary McKinnon.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I filmed it. Yeah, I was like, I can't move. My phone is completely frozen.

[Gerb]

You got him to your studio?

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, that happened to me too. No, no, I went out to uk. Wow.

[Jesse]

One more time here,

[Gerb]

dude. I really look forward to that.

[Jesse]

Well, it's out, so you can watch it.

[Chris]

It's out now.

[Gerb]

Oh, yeah, it's out.

[Chris]

I should not watch it in the future now.

[Jesse]

It comes up a lot. But Anthony Casimir is a name. And then Hernando Quellar, Huxley. Casimir. Okay, and so these are all names.

[Chris]

No. What about Casimir effect? E, F, F, E, C, T. I

[Jesse]

know how to spell fact, Jesse.

[Chris]

The T, H. Yeah. What about anti gravity? That's interesting.

[Jesse]

That'll probably come out.

[Chris]

Let's see that. Oh, gravity. He holds these gravity conferences or whatever, but one result. Okay, where?

[Jesse]

Pulling it up now. So from Robert Kuhn to Jeffrey Epstein, an exchange between. So it starts with Jeffrey being like, I deeply appreciate your strong intention with the bold interviews of the best physicists to be quote, unquote, closer to the truth about our universe and its basic physical mysteries. Below is my new J. Fizz published article. Oh, this is Dr. Yuri Grybove. Sorry about that. I was wondering. And then I guess Jeffrey was cc'd on this. So this is going. Yeah, they're talking about breakthroughs. And. He goes, I waited years. This opportunity. My model predicts the matter antimatter, anti gravity, etc, that was simply stupidly forbidden to publish in the most of. In the most of distant physical journals. Why stupid? Because this barrier existed without any experimental verification of the opposite case. Matter, antimatter, attractive gravity. But now it is published and links his publication which might be interesting to look into.

[Chris]

That is interesting. I wonder why he says attractive gravity. Because that's what gravity is. I think of repellent gravity as being anti gravity or something.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah. Maybe A and B. The A wave and the B wave. And so then Robert Kuhn writes and cc's Jeffrey and says, as you know, Jeffrey and Closer to the Truth. So it sounds like an organization are collaborating on a major series for PBS on breakthroughs in mathematics and other areas. And we surely want to feature you in one or more mathematics episodes, hopefully so. Okay. He was also very strange.

[Chris]

And we should look up closer to the tree.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Gripov is a physicist slash artist in Germany with a Idiosyncratic multiverse theory. Idiosyncratic multiverse theory.

[Chris]

Oh, one of my number one interviews. Transurfing reality. Vadim Zeland.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris]

I want to interview that guy.

[Jesse]

So we talk about that a lot.

[Chris]

I love that book. And he's, He's. I think people say it might be a collection of people. There's one photo of him with these huge sunglasses on. Nobody knows who he is. Disappeared.

[Jesse]

Really? Oh, yeah. There isn't there?

[Gerb]

No.

[Jesse]

I was thinking of stock in the Wild Pendulum. I'm thinking of the other guy.

[Chris]

It's Hawk Bentoff. He died in a plane crash.

[Jesse]

Yeah, he's probably. Yeah, he's super trippy. He's on an interview I watched once and I was like, this guy kind of like, knows a lot.

[Chris]

He knows a ton. Yeah, he was like the Israeli version of Puharich and they were like, very close. And then. Yeah, a lot of people said, are

[Jesse]

you convinced Buharis wasn't also with ties to Israel? I mean, he was working really closely with.

[Chris]

I think he was CIA. And I think the CIA and Assad have always been really close.

[Jesse]

Not a buddy. Buddy. Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting cat. Too large.

[Chris]

Extremely interesting. Yeah.

[Jesse]

All right. What about you? GERB number two.

[Gerb]

This will be another kind of boring one compared to what you guys said. But it would be a man by the name of Edward C. Aldrich, also known as Pete Aldrich.

[Jesse]

This guy was a ghost guy.

[Gerb]

No, we talked a little bit about it last night. But this guy was a secretary of the Air Force and undersecretary of the Air Force. His CV is equatable only to somebody like Bobby Ray Inman or Donald Kerr. I mean, this guy was CEO of the Aerospace Corporation.

[Jesse]

He was Tim Taylor.

[Gerb]

He was a senior, I think, board Member at LTB Aerospace, which was eventually transitioned to E Systems, which was a CIA shell company, and then bought up by Raytheon. But as far as I understand it, Edward C. Aldrich was pretty instrumental during his time as undersecretary of the Air Force for helping programs kind of morph legacy programs and take advantage of expanding SAP security controls to kind of hide itself within other programs and program cover offices. And there's actually a very real tangible observation of this. I can't believe this is unclassified, but if you find a document called the History of safaa, which is the administrative assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force, which is a pretty high level position within the Air Force, specifically the headquarters of the Air Force, there were what was known as outside activities within the safaa. And these were created in Pete Aldridge's time. Not necessarily created, but kind of morphed in Pete Aldridge's time, which was a collection of Air Force activities that existed outside of the Air Force that the Air Force had administrative and operational control over. Now, the interesting thing about this is these programs that were stuffed under SAF aa. The administrative assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force by Aldrich bypassed the SAF aa's special access program oversight channels, which is the safety S A H A Z. Sorry, I mean staff aaz. My mistake. Which is info slash I was gonna correct.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, me too. I was actually offended.

[Gerb]

And so that. That's like a.

[Jesse]

That's like a big.

[Gerb]

That's like a big light bulb going off that under Aldrich, he kind of morphed these outside activities under cover offices that bypass traditional special access program oversight channels. That's like a really big, like red alert that.

[Jesse]

Where did you get that information from?

[Gerb]

From that public history. And that was doing stuff for my Air Force video, which a lot of it talked about SAF aa because that SAF AA position, two senior positions there, a man by the name Russell E. Weiler and William E. McClure are likely. One of them is likely the gatekeeper that Chris Mellon was talking about back in 2024. Do you remember when Chris Mellon hosted.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Gerb]

Do you remember when Chris Mellon took to Twitter, he posted an image in response to Sean Kirkpatrick leaking Chris Mellon and Kirkpatrick signal dms. It was Chris Mellon talking to a senior USG official and saying, hey, I think we tracked down the SES Senior Executive Service gatekeeper in the Air Force named Redacted thanks to some work by like a good guy named Alex Katz and myself. It's either former SAF, AAH sensitive activities Russell Wyler or AAC William E. McClure most likely. So it's really interesting there.

[Jesse]

It.

[Gerb]

I would love to. Of course he wouldn't speak about it, but to understand that that roll under like, no comment.

[Jesse]

Yeah, you got me. No comment.

[Chris]

I've had a couple of that.

[Gerb]

Yeah. I think one of the big conversations that needs to happen next, at least in my lane with the legacy programs, is finding out how they morphed and evolved from what you could consider The Manhattan Project 2.0 to a blind man touching the elephant.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

And I think that's a very critical

[Chris]

milestone and why there are no physics. This also should be. There's a. There's this video I just did with Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis. And Eric Weinstein is like, you're telling me these crafts break physics and there are no physicists on the program? And Eric Davis goes, yeah, I checked with the guy. You know, I was exploring this through NIDS and you know, and OS app and you know, met with a lot of these people, met with five people on the crash Retrieval program and they all said it was just material scientists and no physicists. And Weinstein, I think rightly so, is like, I know like some of the smartest people in the country and they have no idea any of this stuff is real. Like, why are you, if you're like struggling to get it to work, at least in its most vital form, the way it was working as the NHI had it working or what, whatever.

[Jesse]

Well, I don't know there. What's the reason?

[Chris]

There is no good reason. It's actually like a brain dead policy.

[Jesse]

If you had to think of a reason, what would it be? They're afraid of some like shifting tech gets out of hand. Everybody has a hold of it.

[Chris]

It would be something like with the invention of the atom bomb, not only did like instrumental, like experimental physics become dangerous, but theoretical physics itself became extremely dangerous.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And compartmentalized, you know, certain science itself. Exactly.

[Chris]

The literally like the top, like the top layer of like, you know, think. Think of theoretical physics as like the guardrails to reality. Like they literally, and this is the kind of Weinstein narrative somewhat is like string theory was pushed out as like a limited hangout where like you bump up against the right stuff and they farm you out. And maybe that. Then they, you know, I see they

[Jesse]

work with you, they extract you.

[Chris]

He thinks Renaissance technologies, this hedge fund that. This guy Jim Simons, who contributed to fundamental physics with the Chern Simons equation and also was an NSA code breaker and then starts this hedge fund called the Medallion fund, which does 30% year over year returns since 1989. Literally made $100 billion.

[Jesse]

Oh, my God. 1989, you say?

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And has the collection of like, it has all the most differential geometers in the country. They all go there and you have to sign an NDA for life once you go and you're like, you're in or you're out sort of thing. And then Stony Brook, he oversees. He was Stony Brook, and he also oversees Brookhaven National Labs. So is this kind of iron triangle. And then the guy, David Spergle is the guy who runs the Simons foundation, and he did the NASA UAP review panel. He was in charge of it in 2022. This is a lot of crazy connections.

[Gerb]

I mean.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Chris]

The interesting thing is it's crazy.

[Jesse]

Holy.

[Gerb]

It seems like the programs used to have top minds and physicists, right?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

Like a premium example of that we were talking about with, with Kingman, like Jesse said. But that Chris mellon exchange is Dr. Ed Dahl. Dr. Ed Dahl was a primary figure named in the Kingman crash by primary witness Arthur Stancil Jr. And Dr. Ed Dahl was a premier physicist that, you know, worked on the Manhattan Project, and according to Stancil, was a. Was a pretty important figure to the early efforts of legacy programs. He would go on to serve as like, executive senior VP for TRW on their mission systems group component and so forth. So it seems like over time that,

[Jesse]

that, that, yeah, mid century had a lot of. Had a lot of these guys, and then something happened to where they were. Like, we cannot have these guys. And so I wonder what that was. Whether that's an event, you know, some type of leak, or whether it was just the, you know, taking that information, projecting it forward and being like, what happens if this gets into the wrong hands type deal? And we need to really clamp on this. The only way we can do that is to have people who don't understand what they' at look at this stuff.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Because otherwise it breaks reality for everyone.

[Chris]

And the number one string theorist over the last 50 years is a guy named Ed Witten. He's known as, like, the Michael Jordan of string theory. Like, he's so much more advanced and smarter than anyone else. His father was working on anti gravity at Martin Corporation's RIAS division, which was literally their. Their anti gravity division group. And he's on. He's giving an interview for the, I think American Institute of Physics. And he's on video saying, wright Airfield commissioned me to do gravity. And now if you email him, he's like 103 or something. He goes, I can't talk about that. I'm so sorry. It is wild.

[Jesse]

It's funny you mentioned Michael Jordan, because I am to string theory what Michael Jordan is to string theory.

[Chris]

Me as.

[Gerb]

Okay, Jesse, number three, who's your.

[Jesse]

Who's your third? Before we get to number three, I got a question for both. Sure. Have you ever had to cut something out of a podcast?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Based on, like, classified stuff. They said you can't put that in

[Chris]

there because it's classified.

[Jesse]

I went too far. I shouldn't have said that.

[Chris]

No, no.

[Gerb]

I've cut stuff out. Out of my. What I perceive as my own safety lines across that. I don't really want to attract the ire of certain individuals.

[Jesse]

Of your own self.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So not.

[Gerb]

Because I don't really do.

[Jesse]

No, you don't do that.

[Gerb]

No, but I. I've cut stuff out, like, of what I say at the end.

[Jesse]

So while editing, you're listening to yourself and you go, wait a second.

[Gerb]

Yeah, like, maybe I should do this.

[Jesse]

Really?

[Gerb]

It happens.

[Chris]

I mean, think about the. That, you know, where it's like, you

[Jesse]

know, he's like, I get it.

[Chris]

Everything's like a shot across the bow.

[Jesse]

But he's also so bold in these videos, I can't imagine what he's holding back. Yeah.

[Gerb]

A good example is in the. In the Air Force Project, I put forward the name Terry Phillips as the gatekeeper. People should know in the same sentence as Glenn Gaffner, right?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

There's other names there that right now I just. I do am a little too worried to talk about.

[Jesse]

Yeah, right. Because they're bad people.

[Gerb]

Terry Phillips is pos. A real bastard.

[Jesse]

But what does that acronym stand for?

[Gerb]

Hey, I don't have a test on the channel.

[Jesse]

It might be the only acronym I know, but.

[Gerb]

Yeah, just stuff that I kind of worry if I put out there, I'll either attract the ire of people I don't want to attract and kind of take their fire, or I'm just kind of worried from. For myself.

[Jesse]

I would not assume that they haven't heard about you. That's true. How about you?

[Chris]

There is one instance I can think of where somebody was like, this would, like, endanger lives if you put this out. And it's like. And it was like. I think it was like a reasonable.

[Jesse]

Who was the guest? Can you say who the guest was?

[Chris]

I don't know, I feel, I feel. No, I feel like if I. No, it wasn't owl, but I feel like if I said it would be

[Jesse]

a stupid blow up.

[Chris]

What's that?

[Jesse]

People would blow him up.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So it's a him.

[Chris]

Yeah. I've liked not that many female guys, but.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

But. And that just Lives of whom? Of the people involved in what he was talking about. Anywhere near it?

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah. Because I, you know, I don't.

[Jesse]

How many syllables in their name? Yeah. All right. I don't know.

[Chris]

And then. And then a couple of other times. But you never know if it's classified, you know, like, if it's like. Because it's classified or.

[Jesse]

Right. But I've had to cut out something.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

John Ramirez.

[Chris]

Interesting.

[Jesse]

Yeah. It was the only time I've ever had to cut out something. You know, I've all. I haven't done that many government officials. I haven't had that many government officials that I know of. But, you know, Lou was one. I got to say that, like, when he went in, he's like, you ask me anything, I don't want any of the questions beforehand and I'll respond how I can respond. Although he was very evasive in a lot of the questioning, he never asked me to cut anything out.

[Gerb]

And he has a playbook of responses.

[Jesse]

That's right. Yeah. And you can tell when you listen to it. A lot of people just roll their eyes halfway through. They're like, we're not getting anything out of this guy. He's air type. But John Ramirez did. There was things that we touched on, and this was around the time Matt Brown had come out with the Immaculate Constellation document. So you can extrapolate from that what you will. I won't get into it. But there was some discussions there that he had to double check.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And got back to me with a negative. Yeah. I have to. He's like, I'm not sure about this. Let me just check. And when he got back, he's like, no, 100%, you got to cut that out. He's like. I was told Peter sternly cannot talk about this. Which.

[Gerb]

Which is interesting because of course, his part was cut out of the Age of Disclosure. Right. And I know he talked about the same things on Age of Disclosure.

[Jesse]

Ah, that's probably why.

[Chris]

Oh, interesting.

[Gerb]

Also because he started. He does get.

[Jesse]

I mean, it's. It's intelligence. It's related to intelligence gathering, which is what he did his whole life.

[Gerb]

It's an asymmetric capability.

[Jesse]

Exactly. And it's very Sensitive.

[Gerb]

Yes.

[Jesse]

And something being used currently. So it's probably. It's literally national security. Reasonable. Yeah. Nothing to do with like spooky UFO stuff, but I mean potentially a little bit adjacently, but yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Okay. Number three. Number three.

[Chris]

Do you hear that? Sounds like breakfast is ready. Because Quakers coming in hot with Morning Nutrition. 100 whole grain oats and a good source of fiber to fuel the rhythm of your morning and kick start your day.

[Jesse]

And that sounds absolutely delicious.

[Chris]

Fuel to start whatever's next.

[Gerb]

Quaker official sponsor of FIFA World Cup 26.

[Jesse]

Let's go.

[Chris]

I gotta thank you guys. You guys go first.

[Jesse]

I'll think all time.

[Chris]

I would do. I would want to interview the Pope.

[Jesse]

It's a good one, the current one.

[Chris]

Yeah. I actually have a crazy story.

[Jesse]

Leo too. He's. He's an American.

[Chris]

He's an American fun podcast and there's just all this stuff around the Vatican knowing stuff about UFOs.

[Jesse]

Having a slice of Chicago deep dish with him. Oh wow.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Sick.

[Chris]

Yeah, it would be sick. Yeah,

[Jesse]

that's a great.

[Chris]

And. And like I just think there's so much. There's the magenta crash like was under, you know, I think was it Pius,

[Jesse]

Pope pius XII the 12th.

[Chris]

Like it was like, you know, under his jurisdiction and so. And then he helped back channel this, the information back to fdr. Yeah.

[Jesse]

After the war. Yeah. Because he would have been, you know, part of the axis. And then during the crash.

[Chris]

Totally.

[Jesse]

And then you have the crash. Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah. Thank you. And then you have Pasulka talking about access to the Vatican archives and you know her going with Tim Taylor and hinting that they know much more than meets the eye. You're all good.

[Jesse]

Yeah. No, and. And the whole, you know, you look at the institution and you look at obviously like we'd mentioned like you'd mentioned like with Diana, like a lot of the research and the words they use and stuff that was potentially changed in the translation to sort of mask a lot of this stuff. Like the word cloud apparently was actually like object or something. And like.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And so they replaced it with cloud

[Chris]

and Roman flaming blazing Roman shields or

[Jesse]

whatever, drums and whatnot.

[Chris]

And then. And they have in the. I think it's like the Roughland translation is like St. Anne's Cathedral. There's once a year within the grounds of the Vatican there is a UFO research group that meets up and discusses stuff. So I went, I'm coming out with a Vatican and UFOs documentary about the magenta crash. And I interviewed Marconi's grandson Who says that Marconi was part of Rs33. And this is. This is the most embarrassing part of. So I. I'm in the Vatican as part of this, like, you know, event. It's like some, like, interdisciplinary faith thing or whatever that I was invited.

[Jesse]

How did you get access to this?

[Chris]

So this dude that reached out around my Peru mummies doc was connected with Kirsan Ilyam Zinov.

[Jesse]

Yeah, the president.

[Chris]

The President.

[Jesse]

And Micronesia or whatever. I forget that.

[Chris]

Of Kalmykia. Yeah. Please get it right, Chris.

[Jesse]

My apologies.

[Chris]

They are population of 300,000 and they're beautiful people.

[Jesse]

Nothing.

[Chris]

No, definitely not. All right. And. And he got this, like, elaborate, beautiful. So he was also president of the World Chess Federation. Fide. Yeah. It was like being president of FIFA. You mean everyone. And he's the man. He's the nicest, coolest guy. I bonded with him. Like, I was like, this guy's a. So cool. And, you know, maybe, you know, they have different standards of, you know, he might. He might not have done everything above board as dictator of his country. I'm not gonna, like, you know, comment on that, but I gotta.

[Jesse]

That was one of the most groundbreaking episodes that I've ever seen. Just like, on another note, and I'll let you finish, but that was insane, dude. The seeing you up there on like, some type of political throne next to, like, this president. You know, it, dude. It's so, so, so surreal to see.

[Chris]

And he said so many insane things in that interview.

[Jesse]

So many insane.

[Chris]

He said he spent a ton of time with Kissinger, and Kissinger seemed to know a lot about the UFO stuff.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris]

And he said that there was a president of another country who he was friends with who got abducted on a fishing trip but was afraid to speak about it. And I'm like, I know this guy's not, you know, maybe. Maybe there's like a little bit of embellishment. So there's. He's not lying. Yeah, he's not lying there.

[Jesse]

And more. More than his own experience is these little interactions with other world leaders and stuff that really goes like, oh, this is just a boys club.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Of like, of information. Like, these guys love sort of sharing these little winks at each other.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah. Their bodies.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Like, this type of deal, like, it really cements that for me. When I watched that interview, I was like, oh, yeah. Once you're in, you're in.

[Chris]

Totally, totally.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Anyway, so, yeah. So, okay, so this guy who hooked me up with that interview, he was so. Yeah. So he had this invite to this Vatican event or whatever. And it was like faiths of all. You know, it was like every religion or whatever representatives would go or whatever. And Kirsten was there and he had this big chess piece that he wanted to give to the Pope. And the Pope ended up like kind of scurrying off and then.

[Jesse]

Not a fan of chess.

[Chris]

What's that?

[Jesse]

Not a fan of chess?

[Chris]

Yeah, not a fan of chess, apparently. I didn't care. Yeah, yeah. No, he didn't like, engage with anybody. And. But then there are some people, like, left over from the event, like, who were in it, you know, some official looking cardinals or whatever who are walking kind of the grounds and like shaking hands or whatever. And so dude that invited me and Kirsan are like huddled up there and I see them talking to one of them. And so I go up and shake the guy's hand briefly, like, you know, meet him for a second. And he gives him the chess piece. Cause he's a representative of the Pope. And then they kind of walk off. And then somebody comes to me after he goes, you know who that was? He shook, you know, his hand you shook. I go, no. He goes, that was the Cardinal Secretary of State, which is the number two to the Pope and has more political power than the Pope. The Pope is like the figurehead. And this is like. This is like the dictionary. Complete fumble. I couldn't ask him about you, but I don't. I don't know what the guy's face looks like.

[Gerb]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You don't have a set of trading cards with all the car.

[Chris]

No, I don't. And so I. So I. I'm like, oh. And then I'm like, in the back of my head, I'm like, well, at least he probably doesn't know anything about UFOs. And then I find out like a week or two later that like, in certain instances he's expressed interest and ufo. But you know what?

[Jesse]

Something.

[Chris]

What's that?

[Jesse]

He knows something in.

[Chris]

He knows something.

[Jesse]

Something of interest.

[Chris]

And so. But anyways, I. I still. I want to. I want to interview one of you.

[Jesse]

One of the red guys or the white guy. That's. That's a really good.

[Gerb]

Yeah, I can't wait for that, Doc.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse]

It's gonna be fun. Super exciting.

[Chris]

It's gonna be cool.

[Jesse]

Oh, man. Yeah. Especially because since you made the reverse of that dock with the sort of like Satan worshipping rocket builders, now you have like the. The dichotomy here, which is really interesting. I would. I would also have a religious figure, but mine would be the. I heard about, you know, this Carthusian monk that apparently lives in, like, Vermont.

[Gerb]

Where did we hear that?

[Jesse]

Jon Stewart.

[Gerb]

Okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I remember that. When he was on your paw.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And a lot of people are going to roll their eyes at the. At the sound of this guy's name. Jon Stewart. I love the guy. I think he's fun. He's hilarious, and he's got gumption, and he just doesn't give a shit. You know, he even considers himself a useful idiot, which I think is a refreshing take.

[Chris]

It is refreshing. No, it's. It's better than the people who don't know.

[Gerb]

It's like, I disagree with John on a lot, but I'd love to get dinner with him. He just seems like somebody who. Who you would enjoy spending time around in a personal setting.

[Jesse]

Definitely. And he. And he's a showman, obviously. He's ex wrestler, politician, car salesman, used car salesman. He loves.

[Chris]

I was up late last night because he has this video he came out with saying Whitley Streamer is a CIA age. He goes, this is gonna break the news of 2026. And you find out that he's quoting William Cooper, Behold a pale horse. Yeah, I texted. I texted Whitley. I was like, is this legit, dude? And he's like. He goes, that's absolutely nuts. Like, And Whitley's saying, it's absolutely nuts. He. Man, it's absolute.

[Gerb]

How many times did John refer to himself in the third person?

[Chris]

I don't. Know, but your episode with him was amazing, and I think it showed how deep, at least in that isolated context. The alien interview.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Chris]

That guy knows his shit.

[Jesse]

He's done a lot of legwork on that specific video and probably uncovered potentially some of the most. I mean, he came up with a list of names that were in that room, and those names he then independently sought to verify one by one, and was met every single time with either a, I'm not talking about this, don't call here again, or, you know, that was my husband. He would never talk about work. So it was. It was really interesting. Like, you looked at it and you go, oh, there's definitely something here. But then he mentions these. So apparently how this goes down is the CIA or the DIA at the time, hires remote viewers to remote view, you know, targets or whatever. Now they're getting pulled in the direction of this monastery in northeastern United States. And this tall, this sort of big white building is what they're saying. Something you're seeing is that the people that are there are going to help you. Those are the people you need. Right. So they were sought out by first of all, remote viewers. Now I reached out to Joe McMonagle about this because that would have been roughly around his time. He said it rings a bell. He would get back to me. And he got back to me and he was like, no, we. We were actually tasked for a monastery in that area. But it had something to do with like hauntings, which is also really trippy. And I think it had to do with. It was like. It was a private thing. It wasn't like a government thing. So it was like post Stargate. But regardless, he said these two, they took six of them and they had them work as counter intel. It's sort of remote viewers and train them. And then two of them were really talented. And those two were flown out to S4 apparently meant to communicate with this being. And so John said he has a guy on the inside. He won't tell me his name. And I've. I like credit to him because I've in person too. I was like, just give me the name. Like give me, give me something. Dude, I gotta go. I gotta go see this guy. I find out the name of the monk but not the name of the person who interviewed the monk. So that part still is a little nebulous. But apparently this Monk is like 90 some years old, he's in good health, still alive, and spilled the beans and said. Yeah to you. He spilled the beans. No, to this. To the guy that John was getting his information from.

[Gerb]

Have you reached out to this monk?

[Jesse]

No, and I know probably a lot of people have. I heard through, all through John that Rick Doty has like apparently like sent pizzas there and like letters and facts recently.

[Chris]

No way.

[Jesse]

Yeah. To like try and creepy. Yeah. And so that, that tells me is that, oh, Rick Doty also doesn't know about this and that he has a genuine interest or you know, some other nefarious connection. Yeah, you never know. You never know. But I just thought, thought dropping that name was kind of interesting and. But he has some other person on the inside that ended up writing a letter now I've penned a letter. I have a letter ready to go. I put the video out and I thought I'm gonna wait a bit because they're probably gonna get inundated with flooded. Yeah. And so I'm gonna wait a bit. But you can't contact them in any way. That disrupts their vow of silence. And you, I mean you can't Infer any type of COVID up conspiracy, anything outside of like perhaps historic, like historic purposes or faith purposes. Those are like, that's the bare minimum. But as soon as you talk about anything else, you're going to get shut down, shut up for good.

[Gerb]

So how did you approach it as a historical basis?

[Jesse]

Yeah, pretty much that I'm a researcher and that there were rumors circulating that during the cold war era that some people within certain agencies would have hired people with monistic ties to, you know, sort of aid in some of their operations. And now we're hearing more fringe sort of conversations around this matter. And I wanted to give you a chance to set the record straight about any involvement that you might have had during that time. You know, to correct the history books was like, you know the way. But I haven't sent it yet and I'm a little reluctant because I know that like if they don't answer, they're just gonna leave it on the bed.

[Chris]

I think you gotta do it though, because he's a 97.

[Jesse]

Yeah, but interesting, that guy. I'd like to talk to Monk. But how would you talk to him

[Gerb]

though if he's in a bowel of silence? Would you have to exchange?

[Jesse]

Apparently, allegedly. According to John, he broke his vow of silence to answer the questions. And that guy has been in contact with this monk's family for a long time.

[Chris]

Gotta find that guy.

[Jesse]

Yeah, he would have been, you know, the communicator, which is so crazy to think about. Wild. Yeah, yeah. And he, you know, he's saying some trippy stuff like you know how, how they were, you know, literally he was like listening to in his mind and like talking to the general, the sir colonel or whoever it was in the room at the same time. Like real time translating. That's so crazy.

[Gerb]

Wild.

[Jesse]

But you know, science fiction, reality. I don't know, but I would. Regardless, if this person is real, which I think he is, and if he's lying, I would love to hear a lie from a 95 year old monk. I would love nothing more.

[Chris]

Well, it makes intuitive sense. Like you have the telepathy tapes and you have like the idea of like one, one sense goes like all those kids are, they say autistic, but usually they're autistic. They're mostly non verbal.

[Jesse]

That's right.

[Chris]

And so this guy's taking a vow of silence. And so there's definitely something around like an accentuation of senses when something else goes. And spending that much time just hermetically sealed and meditating.

[Jesse]

Yeah, correct. They're in constant contemplation about God.

[Chris]

That's what they're doing. Your paradigm is going to look much more like one of these beings. Likely.

[Jesse]

Correct.

[Chris]

Or if not, it's going to be just deviated from a normal human beings. And you're going to throw a person like that at any entity to try to translate. For sure.

[Jesse]

Yeah. I guess that's the catch 22 about taking that vow of silence, is that you do accrue all of this amazing knowledge through your contemplative practices and your deep pondering of, you know, spirituality and the source and all of this. But at the same time, you have no outlet. You can't articulate it right.

[Chris]

Well, it's like this with like, Jesus and the Buddha and it's always like, ears to hear. Like, your communication is only as good as, like, the measurement instrument on the other side and how much it resonates. And so like, there's going to be this, like, translation error. Like if you get to a certain level of wisdom, like, it's inherently not going to, like, trickle down in this, like, one to one way.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. Trippy.

[Gerb]

That'd be. I would love, love if you were able to get in contact with that monk.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Who knows?

[Jesse]

He's definitely not watching this podcast, so we can say whatever we want.

[Chris]

Fuck that guy.

[Gerb]

I mean, even if he's not talking

[Chris]

about, like, the alien interview, probably strike me down right now.

[Jesse]

I think you'd probably have a better chance communicating with that person in an astral form.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You know, and I think you suggested that or you.

[Chris]

I did. I told you. Hey, you should.

[Jesse]

Yeah. It was so funny because when I broke this, when I heard it first from John to Amar, our buddy Amar, he was in a monastery in the oldest monastery in the world, like St. Catherine's Monastery or something during that time. And I was like, whoa. I told him about this monastery. He's never been in a monastery. And it was the last day of the year. It was January 31st, and I was the last person he would talk to before the new year. And it was just like this weird, trippy synchronicity where we at number three.

[Gerb]

I think. So, yeah. You guys, you guys have the Pope.

[Jesse]

Another boring name.

[Chris]

Exactly.

[Jesse]

I'm going to say another four Major, major, Colonel because you guys have the

[Gerb]

Pope, you guys have monks.

[Jesse]

I, I.

[Gerb]

And then you got me. Who's going to say Donald Kerr. So that's like a huge step down, an interest.

[Jesse]

Who's Donald Kerr?

[Gerb]

Donald Kerr was, he was, you know, either director of the NRO altogether. Some. Some pretty senior elements of the NRO. He was within DS&T on MITRE, EG&G, special projects VP or director. Okay, this director of Los Alamos.

[Jesse]

Spook. Spook spooked. This guy might be nhi, the most

[Gerb]

juicy, robust CV I've ever seen in my life. But the problem is with some of this guys, just like the monk, Donald Kerr is ancient. So a lot of these guys, so is Bobby Ray Inman. It's kind of a race against time. Hopefully their testimony has been taken in and saved for historical purposes. But. But the guy's super old, and from what I understand, he's been one of the most ingrained legacy people, as you can just tell from his background.

[Jesse]

I would watch eight seasons of Gerb doing deathbed confessions.

[Gerb]

I've tried with multiple people, and they say they will tell me on their deathbed, but not pre record to release.

[Chris]

They don't know what they die exactly.

[Jesse]

They all think they're gonna live longer. Everybody who dies, guys thinks, oh, when I get out of this, I'm buying an RV and like, or I'm traveling the world. Yeah, this is it.

[Gerb]

There's one very specific person that has, in my opinion, one of the most worthy testimonies that must be heard. And he says, you know what? When I'm dying, I'll summon you to my deathbed and I'll tell you, but the guy's in really bad health, and so I don't want him to be gone. As my friend.

[Jesse]

And you don't want to be like, you're dying.

[Gerb]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't want him to go because, A, he's my friend and B, like, there's no guarantee we could have that conversation with, with his poor health.

[Jesse]

What's, what's making him so reticent in sharing that now that he's in decent health, does he not trust you, or does he not trust that the information will fall into the wrong reprisals?

[Gerb]

We, during the course of our communications, there have been several instances where, you know, some, some keys will be dangled above him saying, hey, you better stop, or like, we're taking away your pension. Because this guy retired at a very high level within a certain element of the armed forces, and, and he has family members that rely on him to live because of disability. So he's ultra worried because he's disabled himself. That pension gets taken away. He can't live. Those members of his family can't live either. So that's this big pain point that they love to target this guy.

[Jesse]

Seen bodies.

[Gerb]

Yes.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Gerb]

We talked. That's the guy we talked about last time. Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

Seen bodies. Seen tech. Seen craft. Yeah.

[Gerb]

Seen our craft, too.

[Jesse]

Is this the same guy that Greer mentions? Did Greer ever meet this guy?

[Gerb]

You know, what I have to say about Greer and some of his testimonies that he's collected? Some people will be very shrewd and approach Greer from a doctor patient privilege, because, of course, Greer is a licensed doctor. And they'll enter into an agreement with Greer.

[Jesse]

What is he. I didn't know that.

[Gerb]

Yeah, they'll enter into an agreement with Greer where Greer is in a position of, like, a health caretaker.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Gerb]

And so all of their communications with Greer will be protected via hipaa. And so when Greer releases those, he's in direct violation of those laws. So Greer has collected and distributed testimony illegally on several occasions of people who approach him under the guidelines of hipaa, and he takes it upon himself to release that and talk about that, and that is both highly unethical and just wrong.

[Jesse]

And so. You didn't answer my question.

[Gerb]

I have no further comment to say there.

[Jesse]

All right.

[Chris]

Sounds like I did not get in this direction.

[Gerb]

A lot of people have come across Greer's desk.

[Jesse]

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[Chris]

He was like, the guy.

[Jesse]

Including.

[Gerb]

Yeah. And of late, because there was a time at which, you know, like. Like we've talked about before, I think he did the right thing by platforming guys like McCandlish on, you know, the National Press Club in 2001 and the other one.

[Chris]

But.

[Gerb]

Yeah, 2023 with Mike Herrera, but also done the wrong thing of taking people's testimonies and expanding on them to suit his needs.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Chris]

And probably.

[Jesse]

I don't know, that's a pretty big claim, too. And that's like, you know, is that something he's nervous about? Like, what is. What do you think? Like, what's. What's the.

[Gerb]

Like the hip. The hipaa. Violent issues.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Like, why.

[Gerb]

Why he's not. Because he's continued to do it.

[Chris]

Well, I. I think if. If you were trying to protect the program, I think you would use him now as a fly trap.

[Gerb]

He's been legally mandated to take down their documents because he's been threatened with legal action because of the HIPAA violation. And he still talks about them.

[Chris]

Yeah. And there's weird stuff that you've pointed out go missing and, like, really key interviews. Like, he did a great thing with Jonathan Makin and Stephen Greer just cut all these parts of the interview, and he's Also, I think Lord Admiral Hill Norton in the uk, who's head of the, you know, the. The naval fleet there.

[Jesse]

Well, thank you.

[Chris]

Thanks so much.

[Jesse]

Coffee soon. I'm good with coffee. Yeah. You good?

[Gerb]

I'm good for now, too.

[Jesse]

Thank you.

[Chris]

I, you know, James Fox got that interview, and then Stephen Greer was just like. Like, that's my interview. And he like, cut James Fox's parts of the interview.

[Gerb]

He did that with Quakeant as well. And I talked to James Fox about it. I said, hey, do you remember shooting this? And he said, yeah, of course. I was like, do you know Greer cut out all of your parts?

[Jesse]

He said, no.

[Chris]

So crazy.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Gerb]

Because you can hear in the interview, not like the interview Greer posted to YouTube, but in the archives of the DPI archive, you can hear sort of the raw interview. And at certain parts, James Fox will start to ask a question, then it'll just cut that.

[Chris]

He's acting like it's him. It's like, come on, dude. It's okay.

[Jesse]

He can squat 700 pounds or whatever.

[Gerb]

Leg press?

[Jesse]

Yeah, leg press. Big difference there, actually. How much can you leg press, Trip? I don't know.

[Gerb]

I don't leg press much because it. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't. How. How's leg press going to help you? And athletic movements, functional movements.

[Jesse]

We're a big guy. You don't do any weight training?

[Gerb]

I do a lot of weight training, but more so, like. More so compound movements instead of like a leg press.

[Jesse]

Like you're training deadlifts?

[Gerb]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Like how. How often?

[Gerb]

Jiu jitsu? Four times a week? Two times a week.

[Chris]

Wow. Whoa.

[Gerb]

As you could probably tell.

[Jesse]

So you're training six times a week. Where do you have time? That's crazy.

[Chris]

That's impressive.

[Jesse]

Well, I.

[Gerb]

You got to. To stay sane sometimes on this subject.

[Jesse]

I. I agree with you totally. I do. I do exercise. I do, like, three days a week,

[Gerb]

but I just love it. It helps calm the mind. There's something about matching up with, like, a worthy opponent in grappling and getting to a position where you could choke the life out of them. If you're not in a controlled sport environment, it's just like. There's nothing more satisfying than matching up against somebody worthy of skill and grappling

[Jesse]

and besting, I don't know, solving a puzzle,

[Gerb]

It's a very primal thing. I love it.

[Chris]

Playing bridge,

[Jesse]

chess, you know, a lot of people say it's really close.

[Gerb]

Yeah. You whooped my butt in chess last time we played.

[Chris]

Same.

[Gerb]

What do you guys do to. To stay sane and grounded in your spare time with this subject.

[Jesse]

I mean, what.

[Chris]

I used to surf and then I moved to Texas and I don't surf as much there.

[Jesse]

I used to surf in California. I know you went to like Portugal.

[Chris]

Yeah. Surf all the time.

[Jesse]

You're good at surfing.

[Gerb]

I'm like, okay, yeah, it's hard.

[Chris]

Amazing. But it is definitely really hard. But yeah, I'm like decent. It.

[Jesse]

No, it's cool.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You ever encountered sharks?

[Chris]

No.

[Jesse]

As a Canadian, that's like our number one fear.

[Chris]

Oh my God.

[Jesse]

That's ours because we don't have them.

[Chris]

So we're like, yeah, it's like an abstract, not real fear. Like even where there are a ton of great whites in Northern California, I think the last like death due to a great white shark was like 2013 or something crazy like that.

[Jesse]

Oh, it's still not zero. Yeah,

[Chris]

but yeah, I don't know. Surfing, running now, more meditating. But I could use some more compartmentalization for sure. Like.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like it's definitely spend a lot of time on UFOs and.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Crazy.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Cuz you gotta like, you gotta do so many things in between these episodes that people.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Might not realize or might. Might think is a lot of people think. A lot of the brunt of the work is like having those conversations, holding court, coming up with questions. It's more than that. It's like, it's the amount of brain power it takes to devote to the subject on the off time. Like you gotta live a normal life. But then also I got a guest, I got three guests coming and they each got four books. I gotta read at least one of the books, you know, and so you're, you're catching up on reading during that time and then on top of that you're getting inundated with all sorts of other, you know, inquiries and future, you know, opportunities. And you're constantly like in this world and the second you let up, you feel like it starts. You know, like you want to maximize, you want to strike while the iron's hot type deal.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And that's, that's tough. That's tough as it's a tough mental game to play. So maybe offsetting that with like physical activity is probably the healthiest.

[Chris]

But. Yep.

[Gerb]

Well, that's why I don't know about you guys, but I'm so thankful. I don't really spend time doing like news of the day stuff or kind of capturing news. I'm a bundle of nerds.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

Like also, you're going to SW. Like with UFOs. You're going to swing at bad pitches if you don't do that. But you're definitely going to swing at bad pitches if you're trying to do like the hot new thing.

[Jesse]

We all. We already swing at bad pitches after doing research.

[Chris]

That's what I'm saying.

[Jesse]

That's very true. Yeah. Guys like vetted or even like the night shift guys. Like these guys covering or psychoactivo people covering, like the Today news. Like, to me, when I started this channel, I did it a little bit, maybe for two episodes.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse]

I was like, all right, what's going on? Let's do a little roundup. And then I went, oh. And another thing happened. Another thing happened. I'm taking notes and I'm. Now I have to research because the second you don't, you look like a buffoon. And so I'm just like researching constantly because news is coming out daily about that stuff. And I'm like, there's no way I'll ever be able to keep up with this. I am the most easily psyopable person now because I have no time to research anything. And I'm constantly.

[Chris]

And you're bought in a priori to the whole topic, obviously.

[Jesse]

And I'm responding to every single story. And I'm giving my take and my take becomes shifted and molded according to, you know, the information. Yeah, exactly. That I'm consuming and stress. It like, heightened my anxiety.

[Gerb]

Right.

[Jesse]

To think about, did I have the right take on that? Did I say the right thing? Oh, I made a mistake. I should redact that. Like these stresses. You're like, my hat's off to those guys doing it.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

I'm glad people are out there covering that because there was a need for that type of content. I think a lot of people enjoy it. It. But it's not for me. It's something that. Yeah. Def. I don't have the heart. I don't know how to do it.

[Chris]

I feel like sometimes it reduce in its best form. It's like you're covering and amplifying stuff that like, needs to be amplified. Especially because, like, all this stuff gets drowned out often by like.

[Jesse]

That's true.

[Chris]

The World War iii. We might be like on the verge of, you know, other kind of prosaic political events. I think in its worst form, it's like Sports center for. Or TMZ for UFOs.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And it's like star.

[Chris]

You manage. That's right. And you manage to take this, like, topic that touches on, like, ontological truths, sacred truths, like, what is reality? Like, you know, itself, like, the most important questions, and you've managed to turn it into, like, this he said, she said, like, food fight thing. And it's like, come on.

[Jesse]

That's a good way of putting it, Jesse. Like, at best, it is something that, like, everybody kind of wants to be updated on and you have. And at worst, it's literally like high school drama. Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So. Yeah, it. Man. I don't know how anybody doing that doesn't suffer from some type of, you know, offset depression anxiety, like, because that would affect me. I've been, you know, I've had my bouts of depression. I know. I was like. When I got started, I was like, no, no, no. Yeah, I gotta stay away from this. Like. And then when you.

[Gerb]

You view the topic and think about it, your knowledge is as wide as a ocean, but as deep as a puddle.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Gerb]

Because you don' time or ability to really specialize in various parts of the subject. And as we all know, it gets so weird so quick. And all of us focus and specialize in different aspects of this topic and, you know, we. We lack in knowledge of each other's topic and.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Gerb]

There's just so much to learn about various aspects of. Of this subject. You know, experiencers, science and physics, legacy program stuff.

[Chris]

It.

[Gerb]

It'd be so impossible to cover all of it at once.

[Jesse]

That's a good point, man.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Well, I'm glad you guys are a part of it. It. Yeah, me too.

[Gerb]

Me too, man.

[Chris]

I'm very grateful.

[Jesse]

Yeah, same.

[Chris]

I'd feel crazy if you guys weren't around.

[Jesse]

I know. Yeah. You got an island. Yeah. Hey, hold on.

[Chris]

Don't leave me.

[Jesse]

One island, Jesse.

[Chris]

Jesus Christ.

[Jesse]

All right. Well, boys, this is delicious. And this is fun.

[Chris]

Yeah. This is so fun.

[Jesse]

Thanks for. Thanks for hanging out with me, the flying saucer. Appreciate it.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah. Thank you for having us.

[Gerb]

Thank you for having us.

[Chris]

Chris, it's great. Apple pie and burger.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's delicious. All right, let's get the hell out of here.

[Chris]

Let's do it,

[Jesse]

Sam.