Strange Encounters With Other Beings - Jason Quitt | Ep. 98

Summary

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Podcast Summary

AREA52 - DEBRIEFED with Chris Ramsay

Episode 98: Strange Encounters With Other Beings - Jason Quitt
Release Date: August 7, 2026
Host: Chris Ramsay
Guest: Jason Quitt (Author, experiencer, teacher)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Chris Ramsay sits down with Jason Quitt—a Canadian author, investigator, and self-described experiencer—to explore the mysteries of out-of-body experiences (OBEs), non-human entities, UFO encounters, esoteric traditions, consciousness, shamanic journeys, and the metaphysical roots of ancient myths. The discussion fluidly weaves personal anecdote with historical and philosophical frameworks, examining the overlap between OBEs and alien abductions, the nature of altered reality, and the enduring enigma of Atlantis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jason’s Path: From Sleep Paralysis to the Occult

• Jason’s background: Started as a musician and graphic designer; experiences of sleep paralysis catalyzed his journey into esotericism, qigong, and crystals.
• Early experiences: Sleep paralysis would happen multiple times a week, often accompanied by a terrifying sense of a non-physical presence.
  • “I see my body. I’m hovering above my bed. This is so real. And this is the grim reaper to take me away.” (Jason, 08:05)
• Crystals & qigong: Became coping mechanisms and vehicles for understanding his altered states.
• Necessity of experience: These episodes were not sought out—they “happened to him” and shifted his life’s trajectory.

Notable Quote

“Life had another plan for me. I started to have these experiences of sleep paralysis when I was at the studio… I couldn’t go on YouTube; it didn’t exist yet.”
— Jason (04:30)

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2. Out-of-Body Experiences: Techniques & Psychology

• Inducing OBEs:
  • Sleep paralysis is described as a “gateway,” a state where “the body is shut off, but the mind is still aware.”
  • Techniques: Afternoon naps, waking up at 4–5am and going back to sleep without moving, meditative/breathwork practices, the Monroe Institute’s “Focus 10” tapes.
• Staying in the OBE state:
  • Emotional neutrality and letting go are essential; excitement or fear often snaps one back to the body.
  • “The astral body itself has its own intelligence... You become the observer.” (Jason, 20:54)
• Alterity of the Astral State:
  • The astral landscape is both familiar and foreign—dreamlike overlays, architecture out of place, entities resembling archetypes or projections.

Notable Quotes

“When you try to force, you wake right up … The word ‘will’ is the best word possible.”
— Jason (11:21)

“It seems to me there is this other intelligence in that world, or the astral body itself has its own intelligence.”
— Jason (20:54)

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3. Entity Encounters: From Shadows to Mantids

• Menacing beginnings: Early OBEs are often frightening, involving shadowy beings or classic “old hag” phenomena.
• Progression to control: Over time, fear dissipates and interactions become less menacing.
• Notable entity—mantid beings:
  • “Very tall ... They looked exactly like a praying mantis, just very big.” (35:24)
  • Communication was non-verbal, with clicking sounds, and the entities seemed surprised Jason could see them.
  • No evidence of negative intent.
• Shadow people: Jason speculates some shadow figures may be projections of living people or fragmented aspects of the self—mirroring shamanic concepts of soul loss and reintegration.

Notable Quotes

"I felt like I caught him … They look at me like, ‘Did—can he see me?’"
— Jason (36:33)

“I think it’s our brains literally trying to interpret and put it together in a way that you’ll understand it.”
— Jason (23:31)

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4. OBEs, Alien Abductions, and the Non-Physical Realm

• Parallels to abduction lore:
  • The process of being “taken” often matches OBE descriptions: sleep paralysis, buzzing, floating, passing through walls, encounters with non-physical beings.
  • “From 1 to 10, almost exactly the same as someone that’s documenting their own abduction scenario.” (67:55)
• Altered-state encounters:
  • Beings encountered in the astral often match accounts of UFO abductees: mantids, greys, reptilians.
  • Shamanic and plant medicine journeys frequently result in similar “otherworldly” contact – suggesting a non-physical layer to these phenomena.
• The psychological vs. objective debate: Jason and Chris agree the experience is “all in your mind” but propose that mind is fundamental—reality is a shared trip.

Notable Quotes

“I’ve come in contact with beings that are described in abduction scenarios … In my journeys I'm like, wow, this is an out of body experience. So it was like a mystery being solved for me.”
— Jason (68:27)

“Some people will say, it’s all in your mind. And I go to them, I know it is all in my mind. It’s all in your mind too.”
— Jason (71:56)

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5. The Role of Ritual, Mind, and Manifestation

• Ritual as a discipline: Physical ritual as “spiritual muscle memory”; intentional practice builds greater capacity for altered-state work.
• Placebo & magic: The “placebo effect” is a form of magic—focused intent can produce real changes, especially when the mind is fully convinced.
• Healing as evidence: Jason shares stories of rapid physical healing using intention, qigong, and crystals, tying mind and energy work together.

Notable Quotes

“The mind is the most important ingredient ... you have to focus your mind on the outcome and the goal.”
— Jason (61:48)

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6. Lessons About Life’s Purpose & Boundaries

• The value of Earthly experience:
  • Profound mystical insight is not about escaping this life but engaging with it more fully.
  • “Why am I trying to get there all the time? If this body is some type of container vessel... then giving up instant manifestation, eternal reality... that has to mean something, right?” (Chris, 88:41–91:10)
  • The importance of relationships, daily living, and “growing the seed of consciousness.”
• Ego death & cosmic scale:
  • OBEs and shamanic journeys dissolve personal boundaries, leading to direct experience of oneness—but also raise the question of how to integrate back into the physical world.
  • The concept of moving through nested realities, each with its own laws and boundaries.

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7. Atlantis, Star Myths, and Esoteric Allegories (1:39:00–1:52:00)

• Jason’s book The Shining Island:
  • Plato’s Atlantis is a cosmological allegory rather than a lost continent.
  • The narrative encodes celestial cycles, especially precession of the pole stars (Vega, Hercules, etc.):
    • “As above, so below”—Atlantis’ destruction mirrors loss of the North Star and navigational guidance.
  • Story structure matches other ancient myths—Egyptian, Greek, and others—as initiatory teachings, not literal history.
• Plato’s secrecy: Myths were coded to ensure only initiates could understand; knowledge protected from persecution.

Notable Quotes

“When you read the Atlantis story, there’s a lot of hermetic and ancient creation myth in there. And unless you know those creation myths, you won’t be able to see them.”
— Jason (99:07)

“By giving this kind of fable, this myth, he’s actually following a very long line of other authors in the past that create myths of the gods, but it’s actually telling another story when initiated into this.”
— Jason (107:05)

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8. Questions from the Audience

• Does Disclosure Matter if Contact is Astral?

  • “It will matter to some people ... but a lot of people will never be happy with those answers. But will it matter if it’s in the astral? Not really, because you’re dealing with a whole other beast.” (Jason, 117:12)
  • Answers merely lead to new questions; the real experience is inward.

• Best Ancient Tech for EM/Consciousness Interaction?

  • Jason nominates sacred architecture: “churches” with their harmonics and geometry, and also mentions pyramids for their resonant properties.
  • “You can build the structures of creation or the vibrations and the sacred numbers and sacred geometry of creation directly into the structure that will resonate with you.” (Jason, 121:36)

• Most Difficult Piece of Forbidden Knowledge to Share?

  • Jason admits to oversharing personal experiences, including encounters with hybrid children in astral scenarios, and recounts the emotional intensity and moral conflict involved.

Notable Moment (Hybrid Children Narration; 127:18-130:57)

“I was taken ... in this nursery, hospital type of thing, and this nurse walks out... I want you to meet your child. And ... it’s like a half human, half alien baby... I was so angry... a couple years later, I was taken back ... I saw him, gave him a big hug and it was like this kind of reunion ... very emotional.”
— Jason

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Jason’s first OBE and the Grim Reaper (08:05):
  “I see my body. I’m hovering above my bed. This is so real. And this is the grim reaper to take me away.”

• On entity encounters, especially mantids (35:25–37:23):
  “It looks exactly like a praying mantis, just very big … they were shocked that I can see them.”

• On OBEs and abductions being perhaps non-physical (67:55):
  “From 1 to 10, almost exactly the same as someone that’s documenting their own abduction scenario.”

• Chris, on the lesson of physical existence (88:41):
  “What’s the hurry then? Why am I so in a rush to die? … That is the only certainty … but now I gotta ask myself, why am I trying to get there all the time?”

• Jason, on Plato and encoding myth (99:07–101:50):
  “The narrative of Atlantis mirrors the actual date and timing of the stars in the heavens ... as above, so below.”

• Jason’s hybrid children experience (127:18–130:57):

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Timed Segment Guide

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Opening; Jason’s background | Sleep paralysis, life change, crystals | 03:00–06:58 | | Techniques for OBE | Induction methods, meditative states | 10:29–16:24 | | Entity encounters (mantids, shadows) | Navigating fear, communicating, archetype theory | 32:43–38:02 | | OBEs vs. lucid dreams | The reality/illusion debate | 21:57–25:07 | | Magic, ritual, placebo | Power of mind, healing stories | 50:42–61:48 | | The purpose of human life | Experience vs. escapism, living fully | 91:10–92:21 | | Atlantis and creation myths | Jason’s research, Plato’s allegories | 99:07–113:42 | | Audience Q&A | Disclosure, ancient tech, hardest story to share | 116:33–133:33| | Hybrid children encounter | Personal story, emotional aftermath | 127:18–130:57|

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Style & Tone

The conversation is open-minded, deeply personal, and accessible, blending the language of experience, reflection, and inquiry with references to philosophical, shamanic, and scientific traditions. Both host and guest are cautious not to claim certainty, and instead emphasize curiosity, discernment, and the transformative effect of these anomalous experiences.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers an immersive tour through the realms of altered consciousness, UFO encounter narratives, metaphysical traditions, and the encoded histories of ancient myth. Jason Quitt’s lived experiences and thoughtful articulation, combined with Chris Ramsay’s probing curiosity, offer listeners both practical insights and profound enigmas—leaving the mystery very much alive.

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Find Jason Quitt’s books (The Shining Island, Astral Gates of the Anunnaki, Astral Genesis, Egyptian Postures of Power) on Amazon or visit thecrystalsun.com.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[B]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy See

[A]

terms I see my body hovering above my bed. This is so real. And this is the grim reaper to take me away. So I'm like screaming and like trying to wake my body up. Like I'm thrashing inside my physical body. Wake up, wake up. And that is literally how it started. A couple months will go by and then suddenly at night it'll just happen because maybe something walked into the bedroom that's not supposed to be there. There's more to this than just us wanting it. The first coup of these experiences, I would experience mantid beings, which a ton of people experience. And for me they were like, I don't know, I didn't feel any bad intention. I was taken and it was like I was in this nursery hospital type of thing. This nurse walks out and it's like, I want you to meet your child.

[B]

How you doing? I don't know if this actually counts for what you do, but I'm gonna tell you something quick. I was a Providence, Rhode island police officer from 02 to 09. I was injured by gunfire and lost the use of my right ear. Like I'm deaf in one ear. Some years later, I developed the ability to hear spirits, or I became Clara Audience, as they call it. And they think it's because of my injury. But a lot of things I've been hearing now have been picking up since a lot of this UFO stuff has been coming out. It's been getting more intense. Not schizophrenic. I'm serious. You can check that. I was a cop. This is a real thing. And I would like some help about this because I'm confused about what I'm hearing and I don't know anyone who can help me. Thanks. Ladies and gentlemen, today I'm joined by a fellow Canadian. This is Jason Quit, author, and I would say investigator experiencer. You're someone who I met at Contact in The desert. And I was quite taken with because your, your ability to, I suppose, put into words a lot of the out of body stuff, a lot of the sort of, even the Western esotericism or the sort of philosophical stuff, the ancient Greek, whether it's. What was the recent book you put out on Atlantis?

[A]

Atlantis called the Shining Island.

[B]

The Shining Island I thought was really fascinating. I haven't gotten a chance to read it yet. I want to read it. But you talking about it at Contact, I was really taken aback because I was like, oh, this is a brand new take. So thank you so much for joining me today. It's a real pleasure having you and I look forward to speaking about all these things that, that I'm sure you're really well versed on with you. So thank you again for joining me.

[A]

Of course. Thank you for inviting me.

[B]

So, Jason, for the audience at home, how would you describe what it is that you do? Like, other than being an author, what do you do?

[A]

Well, I started. What do I do other than being an author? I work. Selling crystals is actually my real job. I do teachings. I teach qigong and I just kind of research. That's, that's what I do day to day is just kind of wait till the next mystery and try to figure out exactly what I can do to try to break that open.

[B]

Yeah. And you've been researching this stuff for quite a while, I take it now we spoke before the cameras turned on, but you got into this through the crystals and through the qigong and all of this. But then you went from that to having out of body experiences.

[A]

No, actually reversed.

[B]

Oh, the out of body. That's what got you into it?

[A]

That's what really got me into it was the body, it was the crystals. And going down this path of the qigong to try to figure out this reality, what was I experiencing? What did I need to do? Because when I. I'll say. In my past life I was a musician, I was a graphic designer. I opened up a recording studio with my best friend, you know, so that's where I started out in life. After college and things were going great, I really enjoyed life. And life had another plan for me. I started to have these experiences of sleep paralysis when I was at the studio. And back in the day, we're, you know, we're going back to the early 2000s. I didn't know the Monroe Institute. I didn't know anybody I could talk to about this. I couldn't go on YouTube. It didn't exist yet. I had to Go on AOL or Yahoo Search or go to the library and try to figure this out. And it was kind of like that that kind of led me down this path. And you know, I love crystals all my life, don't get me wrong. But like, when I started to learn that maybe they could help me with dealing with this out of body experience stuff, that's when I really started to get into crystals.

[B]

So take me down the path of your first experience. I'd filled you in before the podcast on sort of what happened to me. I say what happened to me because I didn't go looking for it. And I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure you're probably the same. A lot of people who experience it, they don't go looking for it at first. It kind of just happens to them through circumstance. But what got you out of body the first time?

[A]

Well, it was actually anger, really. It was a lot of anger because like I said, I was having these sleep paralysis episodes and they were happening very frequently, you know, maybe even once a week or even more. And what happened is that I would be locked in my body, I'd be screaming to wake up. I can feel things in my room with me. So it's like I could sense something walking around. And so I'm just in complete terror, anger, fear. But you know, when it happens so often, you kind of get. I don't want to say you get used to it.

[B]

You get numb to it.

[A]

You kind of get numb to it, but you get really frustrated and angry, like this is happening again. So one night I'm just like really struggling inside my body. And when you're in this state, for me, it was like there was another version of me. There was another body within my physical body. So it's like I can move this thing around inside my physical body. And it was like, I always say it's like my tomb. So I'm like screaming and like trying to wake my body up. Like I'm thrashing inside my physical body. Wake up, wake up. And one night I was just so pissed, I was like thrashing so hard to wake up that I popped out of my body.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I found myself on the ceiling just like people describe in near death experience.

[B]

Robert Monroe having his first experience as well.

[A]

And I'm looking down at my bed, which is totally terrifying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm straight as a board on my back. There's no covers on me and my eyes are wide opened. So I'm like on the ceiling looking down at me, looking back up at me. And, okay, if that wasn't freaky enough, my attention gets pulled to the foot of my bed and there's this tall shadow being. And it was clear as day. It was like. It was. It looked dense, like it had a physical form, but it looked like the Grim Reaper. And it's like my heart stopped. And I instantly. It was like the slap of reality. It's like, did I just kill myself? I see my body. I'm hovering above my bed. This is so real. And this is the Grim reapers to take me away.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And it's like that. That moment of my life was so shocking, so terrifying, because, remember, I wasn't looking for this. I didn't know that this was gonna happen to me, but it did happen to me. And from that moment, well, in that exact moment, I got scared so much. I got sucked back in my body and woke up, and my heart was just like pounding out of my chest in fear, like, what just happened to me. And that is literally how it started.

[B]

Whoa. So there's a lot to unpack here. First off, I find it really interesting, the part about sleep paralysis, because from what I've gathered, it seems like that is the out of body state. I had a friend of mine, I have a friend of mine who can literally induce a sleep paralysis on command every night if he wishes to, which he doesn't, because it is. I've never had it, but it's very, very scary. Apparently. It's terrifying because often you'll have the hag or somebody on your chest or some snake or some being, and you'll feel like, oh, my God, I'm going to die, and you can't leave your body. And so I asked him one day, I said, his name is Wes. And I said, wes, have you ever flown in your dreams? And he goes, no, never. And I go, maybe that's why you're locked in your body. Like, I've always flown in my dreams. I fly in my dreams quite regularly. And so for me, I think when I had that sleep paralysis state, I already had the know how to sort of will myself up as one does in dreams. Is that the same for you? Have you had dreams? Have you flown in dreams before that?

[A]

Yes, I have flown in dreams. So I don't know if that's the same. But what I will say is that for me, it's that sleep paralysis is kind of like the key. That's like the state when you know your body is shut off and, you know, people will say it's your Brain shutting your body off, you know, and then you hallucinate. Well, it's true, you don't want to go out in your dreams and act them out when you're sleeping and. But when you're meditating, when you start to learn how to meditate, like deep breaths into the stomach, especially with meditation or qigong, you can induce that sleep paralysis, sleep paralysis state where it's like your body starts to feel that heat rise up, you start to feel that tingling, it may be like those waves coming through. And then you can start to feel like, okay, it's like your, your consciousness is now shifting. It's like your body is shutting down. It's like you've given the command. The body is now shutting down. It's going into its sleep cycle mode. But you are now aware, you're now aware of that sleep paralysis. And through that you will yourself. And I think the word will is the best word possible because when you try to force, you wake right up.

[B]

Right? Yeah. And it's the, it's the old mind awake, body asleep mantra that, you know, one learns at places like the Monroe Institute. Sorry, I think someone's at the door right now. How long? Okay, so I want to get, I really want to dissect the out of body experience stuff with you today because as someone who's had them, I stopped having them at one point, I think willingly, because of the last experience that I had was a little frightening. But I wanted to, I wanted to try and understand if there was a protocol that you had that helped you navigate out of the body. Now you said the sleep paralysis was like a gateway for you. How would you, how would you go about inducing that? Through meditation? Is that like 3 o' clock in the morning? Is it when you're tired? Is it late in the day? When do you do?

[A]

Varies. So sometimes when you have, let's say like an afternoon nap, it's sometimes the easiest time to do it really. Sometimes an afternoon nap will just put you in there because you're kind of like in this in between state already. It's like you're daydreaming and then suddenly your body shuts off and you can do it. The trick that I tell people is I found the easiest was if you wake up too early, as in, let's say you wake up at like 4 or 5 in the morning and, and you're like, oh, I don't have to get up till nine. Then you just go right back to sleep. So the whole trick is you wake up at like 4 or 5 in the morning. But don't move. Just be awake. Your body is still basically asleep. And then just go back there, but keep your mind aware. And then you'll feel yourself going and dropping through those areas of awareness.

[B]

I would say, yeah, that's what happened to me. That was like, I'd have to. At one point, I knew that if I drank a glass of water before bed, like a half glass, I knew I'd have to pee at like 4 in the morning or 3:30. But then I also knew that if I didn't drink too much water, I could probably just hold it and go back to sleep. And so once I'm in that state where I like, oh, I should go to the bathroom, I think, oh, maybe I won't. And I'll just start meditating. And that's usually when I put the headphones on and I'll start, like, sort of one of the gateway tapes or whatever. Do you do the gateway tapes?

[A]

A friend gave it to me years after I was already astral traveling, and I wanted to see if it would work. And so I listened to it. And I don't know which one it is because I know there's many tapes, but it's the one where you're taking the deep breaths and you focus, let's say on your toes, and then you kind of like work your way up.

[B]

Yeah, like Focus 10.

[A]

I think that's what it is. That one, for me is like the easiest, best way. It's just like you breathe because it's already doing this kind of like cosmic qigong breath, where you're bringing the energy to the stomach, you're focusing in on the breathing while you're listening to the frequencies. But then what you're doing is you're dropping your awareness into your body and breathing in those different places. And that's actually something that I teach in qigong as well, where. Where it's like. Because qi follows the circulatory system, but it also follows where your mind guides it. So it's like, if I say to you meditate and focus on your big toe, for example, right, and just breathe. But all your attention's on your big toe. Soon it's going to feel like you're pulling in chi. It's like your toe starts to breathe, like you'll feel this energy come in and out of your toe with this focused intention and breathing technique. So that's why I loved that Monroe tape, because it's something that I was already doing. So you go down into the Feet start breathing until I could feel that in and out flow. And I'll say this as well, is when you're meditating. And I know you said you meditate, there's this point in meditation where you're breathing and. But it's almost like the environment as well. Is breathing like you can feel kind of like this push and pull in the environment around you. And at first you think, is this, like, my pulse? Is this my breath? And then you're analyzing it, and it's like none of those. And you're, okay, wait a second. There is this kind of like ebb and flow in the atmosphere around you. And then suddenly you kind of let go and you go, okay, maybe this is like the flow I should be in. And you let go and you kind of join this in and out flow. And suddenly you expand outwards. So there's many different techniques and ways of popping out.

[B]

That's a beautiful way of putting it. I was, as you were speaking, imagining myself through meditation. Yeah, you do. I guess I never quite realized it, but yeah, there is that sense of sort of almost being rocked back and forth. Very interesting. Now, how many times would you say over the years have you left your body? How regularly do you leave your body? I've been carrying this exact Ridge wallet with me for about six months now, and it's traveled with me all over the place. At this point, I don't even think about it. It just. It works. It's slim. It's built incredibly well. And after months of airports and hotels and keys scraping around in my pocket, it looks almost brand new. And obviously, Ridge isn't just wallets either. They make premium everyday gear like power, banks, luggage, and more. And right now, they're bringing back their legendary sweepstakes. For the sixth year running, from July 24 through September 8, two lucky winners will get to choose between a Lamborghini Huracan Stirrado, a Ford Hennessey Velociraptor, a custom ford Bronco, or $100,000 in cash. And personally, I'd go for. I'd probably go for the cash, but the Bronco sounds pretty nice. But the best part is that you can enter completely [e-mail] and if you're already planning on picking up a Ridge wallet or any of their other gear, every dollar you spend during the sweepstakes earns you additional entries ready to upgrade your wallet and maybe your ride. So for a limited time, head ridge.com and use code AREA52 at checkout for 10% off your order and a chance to win Ridge's biggest sweepstakes ever. A Lamborghini Huracan Stado, A Hennessey Velociraptor or a ford Bronco or 100 grand. No purchase is necessary to enter, but every dollar you spend gets you more entries. Ridge.com and use code AREA52.

[A]

I can't even tell you a number anymore. I would say in my early 20s was the most frequent. So this is when it was happening constantly. And I basically lived kind of a monk style existence where all I did was meditate, all I did was qigong. And I was so addicted to the experience. And I know I shouldn't have been, which we could get into later.

[B]

But you were young, I was young.

[A]

I literally shut out my friends and family because it's like, you know, I. I just needed to know, I needed to get to these states. And it was kind of like this, I would say kind of escapism. Sure. But also it's like I felt like this drive, I needed to know, I needed to understand more. So there was also a lot of frustration in those early days because sometimes you. I would leave my body no problem, and sometimes I'd go months without nothing happening. And then you're like, why is nothing working? And you try to figure it out. And I can't figure it out. And I would just kind of say, maybe there's more to this than just us wanting it. Maybe there is some type of control of it or maybe the stars just have to be aligned or. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, maybe there's some type of permission that is required in order to attain it. Do you believe? Because one thing that I've experienced was the moment you let go is the moment it happens. And sometimes you think you've let go, but just by thinking about letting go, you haven't let go. And so it does seem like when it does happen, all the stars have aligned and you're in that perfect state of between sort of awake and sleep, but also in that mindset where you're not thinking about anything, you're literally not thinking about anything at all. And you're able to navigate very clearly in that state without producing a strong sense of emotion in any direction.

[A]

It's all about control. And this is the biggest fault with people trying to learn this and you know, it happened to me as well, happens to everybody, is that when it happens to you, you get really excited because, wow, I just did it. I just left my body. You get really excited. You know, after the terror Yeah. I say after 500 times, you get really excited.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you're like, okay, I want to like, do this, or I want to go here, I want to explore. And it's like, snap. You get pulled right back in your body. And for me it's like, okay, I have to stop that. I have to stop the excitement. I can't work my emotions up. My mind can't go wild. It's like I pop out. I have to learn how to be silent. So it seems to me there is this other intelligence in that world. Or the astral body itself has its own intelligence to it. It knows exactly what it has to do at that time. And you become the observer of it. And that's how I found to stay longer in that state. So I could have my awareness to observe what's going on. And when I'm doing it that way, then I get taken to places. And I could prolong the journey and maybe retrieve things, bring things back with me. But the moment I try to control or say, I want this, or let's do this, just shuts me off.

[B]

That is interesting. So do you think that the out of body state. And again we say out of body. I don't know if that's the correct term for what it is we're experiencing. Like, it's the closest thing that we can think about, Right. Because when you turn to look at yourself, you see a body lying there. But in reality, you know, the room isn't exactly the same. Things are a little different. It's almost like your brain is creating a reality based on memory to make you comfortable. Does that make sense?

[A]

It makes total sense. Because when I first started coming out, it was my bedroom. Right. So it's my bedroom. There might be things out of place. It's not exactly my bedroom. It can go through my house. You know, this is when I live with my mother and my brother. They weren't there. It was like an empty house. So it was like a separation. It was something else. And then what I found really interesting is that when I left the house. So let's say like I, I, I go out through the roof. Just float up through the roof. I can see my house. But then it's like jungle and then it's like waterfalls. And like, that's not where I live. It's almost like it merges with a type of a dreamscape reality type of thing. Yeah.

[B]

Like your, your brain is also perhaps used to certain things. And so in order to make you comfortable or to have you just Even understand what is happening. You might need some parameters that you're familiar with.

[A]

I think that's exactly what's happening. You know, after all these years. It's like, why did this look like this? Or why did this being come and being looked like this? I think. I think it's our brains literally trying to interpret and put it together in a way that could. Could unravel it or understand it in a way that you'll understand it.

[B]

Right. Almost like an archetype.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, that does make sense. Because it is kind of like when people ask me about it and I don't know too much about it. You know, I've read a few books, and I've had half a dozen experiences. They. I haven't had many. But what I do know is that the experience feels objectively different than a lucid dream. I've had plenty of lucid dreams. Many, many vivid dreams. Many, many lucid dreams. And this seems to fall into its own category, which isn't quite one or the other. Like, it's not reality, and it's not, well, reality as we know it physically. And it's not a dream or a lucid dream. And so, you know, that was always where I was a little confused because I'm like, objectively, this is different. I don't know if it's a new type of dream or something that we don't have a word for. I don't feel like I am because the term out of body is what it feels like when you can see your body and you're outside of it. But I don't know that my awareness isn't here and in my body at the same time. Like, I don't know that I'm not in my body. I just assume that. Have you given that any thought?

[A]

I have. But, you know, I think the body itself is a projection of, again, what we believe. So it's like maybe we're sending an orb of consciousness outside of us or. Or. Or our thoughts are connected to, you know, this greater consciousness field. And all we're doing is tapping into something else. There's also the concept of the multidimensional body, where we exist in all these dimensions at once. Kind of like panes of glass almost.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And basically what happens is that you can shift from one to the next. So it's like you have the physical body in this reality. And then when you enter that reality, you have this kind of form that fits that spiritual awareness of that space.

[B]

Right. I see. Which would make sense when you Know, some people report seeing their own hands, like in the out of body state. It's like you're creating that as well. Like you're almost. Again, it's hard to say what's happening because it's sort of unchartered.

[A]

It's very difficult. Yeah, it's very difficult to see your hands, you're out of body. And I've tried so many times to like just kind of look down at my hands and. And it doesn't. It just looks like kind of light in the darkness. Like just light in the darkness that you can see through. But it's almost like I had to work so hard to see that. It's like, am I manifesting that to see it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I think that could be part of it. Because that's the first thing that when I. The first time I willingly left my body, which was the third out of body event that I had, was I was very excited, extremely excited. Like, I was like, oh my God. It was coming back from the Monroe Institute. It was like months later, after meditating every single day, finally it's happened again. This time, you know, on my own accord. And I remember not seeing anything, you know, couldn't see. And I tried to, like, you know, will my eyes open, but I felt I was out and. And then I went. I tried to go to a place instead of a person. And this is interesting because it was the following chapter that I read the next day, which is spoken about it, but I was trying to go to Paris for some reason. And I was just like hurled through space, but I couldn't see anything. But I felt myself being thrown. And when I stopped, I felt I was suspended. And I felt the whole world kind of shift around me like this, like. Like I could feel it. And then as I peeled my eyes open forcefully, I'm looking at this giant churning cube, this black rock, like massive monolith of a stone just like churning in on itself. It was very bizarre and terrifying. And I was just like this big like next to it. And I remember closing my eyes, opening, and there it was again. I was like, oh my God. And I wiggled my fingers and then I got hurled sort of back into my body, you know. The next day I read in Journeys, I think it was chapter 17 or something like that. And he literally said, like. I mean, I was. I was listening to the audiobook actually, and I was in the shower and he said, don't go to a place, go to a person. If you go to a place, it's not going to work. And I was like, oh, yeah, I went somewhere in between because I was trying to go to a place, I guess. Have you ever found yourself in places that you. You couldn't recognize?

[A]

Yes,

[B]

many times. I take.

[A]

Well, yes, but I'll give you the. The weirdest one, okay. Because it's still. Still fascinating to me. And. And I'll just say that this was after a mushroom journey.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

After, like, the night after, like you dreamt. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So it was the night after and I. I left my body and I found myself in this other world. It was like this other dimension. And I was in the sky and I looked like a giant amoeba. Like, just a giant amoeba with all these, like, vibrant colors pulsing in my, like, translucent body. And I'm in the sky and there's this, like, grand forest underneath me. As far as you can see, the sky was like, purple, orange. It was a very weird sky. And there was other amoebas like me in the sky. And there was like these, like, almost like these snakes that were. They just had, like, colors through them, like they were invisible. It was so weird. And. And we were like, dancing and singing in the sky, and these snakes were, like, going around us and all through the sky. I was there the entire night. I was just there. And it was like, is this me, like in another form, in another dimension, just having a party in the sky? And then it's just like my consciousness came back and I was like, that was the most bizarre experience because I was not Jason. I was this amoeba thing with other amoeba things in the sky.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And it wasn't Earth.

[B]

So crazy. And it wasn't Earth.

[A]

That sky. I've never seen a sky like that.

[B]

Whoa. Yeah. I wonder if there is a part of that where we're just like, tapping into, like, other beings existence and kind of like changing the channels on a tv, you know, testing different. Do you think that, like. Because there are people who teach this stuff and you talk about this stuff, who often say that we journey out of the body every single night, whether we know it or not. Is that something you believe in?

[A]

I think so too, but I would say that the astral body itself is unconscious. I think it's like it remains in this unconscious state until you awaken it. And then once you awaken it, it's almost like this body double that will come when it's needed. So, you know, you asked me before, you know, how many times have I left my body? Like, now I don't never even try. I don't sit and meditate to, like, leave my body. I don't go to sleep at night and say I want to leave. I leave naturally when it's needed so I don't have to do anything. It's just like. So maybe a couple months will go by, and then suddenly at night it'll just happen because maybe something walked into the bedroom that's not supposed to be there, and it's almost like a immune response.

[B]

Hmm. Whoa. That's an interesting way of looking at it. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about the things walking in. You've met many sort of entities on these journeys.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What would you say? Okay, we're going to. We're going to dissect all of this, because this is. This is really where it intersects with the UFO world and with perhaps ghost stories. I mean, everything. What percentage of what you encountered, do you feel is at best at sort of benevolent or neutral? Like, what percentage is that versus something perhaps maybe a little more menacing?

[A]

I would say, from my experience in the beginning, it was more menacing.

[B]

It was more menacing, yeah.

[A]

So at first I think it was all menacing. It was kind of like beings or shadows that it felt like they were trying to pull me out of my body or push themselves into my body or like you said, like the old hag thing where you wake up and there's like this being on top of you or this heavy shadow. It gets very scary, especially when you don't know. And I think this is why a lot of people, when they first start to go out, they turn to religion very quickly, call on God very quickly. Because when you first enter, you know, a lot of people call it the. The lower astral is that suddenly there are things there that are not friendly and you have to learn how to deal with them. So for me, it was just kind of like, fight like hell. So it was like, if this thing is on me, I'm trying to fight it off. If this thing is trying to pull me, I'm trying to fight it off. If it's trying to get in me, I'm trying to fight it off. And that was like the first couple years, because I didn't have any teachers, I didn't know what to do. And so it starts like that. And then after a while, again, just like with the sleep paralysis, it becomes an annoyance, and you have this anger towards you. So it's like something will come into the room and you'll get awoken and you're not Getting awoken in the physical state, you're in this altered state where you kind of sit yourself up in bed, or you don't even have to sit up. You just kind of, like, turn your astral head and you can, like, kind of see out into the room, and you're like, okay, what's here? And then there's this thing. Let's say it's a shadow, for example. And, you know, it gets to a point where you just lose the fear and just like, okay, if you want to go, let's go. Let's do this. And then after a while, you gain more control over it. And then there are beings that were very. That I. I can't. I can't tell you if it was positive or negative. Like, for example, in the first couple years of these experiences, I would experience mantid beings, which a ton of people experience. And for me, they were like. They were kind of. I would say that from my perception, it was like they were shocked that I can see them.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

You know?

[B]

And how tall were they?

[A]

They're very tall.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like if they were standing by the door, it's like they'd have to, like, tuck their head in to come into the room.

[B]

Were they. Were they dressed?

[A]

No, no. The head is, like, this big, like, Because. I know. Because it would come very close, like. Like this close to you. And that's not a fun way to wake up. It's like, you know, something's in the room, and you pop out. You just kind of look, and there's a thing like this in front of your face. It looks exactly like a praying mantis, just very big. And sometimes there's one. Sometimes there was two in the room, and it's like I could hear them speaking to each other. And it's. It's like. It's almost like bird sounds are, like, clicking. And. And then I'm like, I'll never forget this, because I'm like, I'm sorry. This is what I said to them. I wake up, they're in the room. I'm like. I could hear them talking to each other, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't understand you. Can you please speak English so I could understand what you're saying? And they were looking at each other, and they just went like this. And they looked at me like, is this. Did. Can he see me? And it's just like. Then I got knocked back out. I don't know what these things are.

[B]

Well, you think it was them that knocked you back out.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's a terrifying thought. So.

[A]

But like I said, I don't know. I didn't feel any bad intentions or. It's almost like catching something that you're

[B]

not supposed to see and something scary doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, we're afraid of spiders, and spiders are really good. Objectively good. That's correct. You know, they help us bees. Same thing. You know, they just have a bad rap because of their physical appearance and our, you know, history and understanding of what monsters should look like. But. So, okay, so you met the mantis. Have you ever interacted with them?

[A]

Just like that.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Just like that.

[B]

Just those small transient moments where they're surprised that you're observing them and then they kind of knock you back out.

[A]

Yeah, it's just like they're surprised. It's like I keep waking up and they're there and it's kind of like they. I've had one just do, like a weird, like, head pull back. Like, it's like I felt like I caught him.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's all I can say. There was no communication whatsoever?

[B]

No. They didn't speak English at any point? Nothing like that?

[A]

No.

[B]

They weren't wearing robes or anything? A lot of them we hear about.

[A]

No, I didn't see any ropes.

[B]

What. What do you make of the mantis archetype?

[A]

I. I don't. I. I have no clue what's going

[B]

on because, like, what do you think if you were to take, like, a Jungian sort of approach to this? How would you rationalize the mantis as an archetype in terms of, like, the psyche? What would you. What would you say that that represents?

[A]

I would go back to maybe a time on Earth when there was intelligent. I know insects are intelligent, but there were bigger insects back then with the oxygen level. So maybe some of these insects were bigger. Maybe, you know, they're still here wrapped in whatever this consciousness is outside the physical, and maybe that's where they inhabit now. You know, there's this concept in shamanism, and it's called the spirits of nature. Or in Japanese, or in Shinto, it's called the kami. And it's basically like a collective spirit that everything has a spirit. So, for example, like an insect, for example, on the other side, there will be a spirit that represents the collective of that being or of that life.

[B]

Like an avatar or something kind of like that.

[A]

And, you know, I've heard a lot of stories, especially living in Canada, where it's like you have the. The spirit of nature. I love this concept, by the way, because it helps me kind of put together Bigfoot, which is like. They're like, people are like. It's multi dimensional, or it could tap in and out of, you know, this world. But think about this spirit of nature concept where let's say that all the trees and plants are sentient beings. Like, they're a life form. They have an energy, they have an awareness to whatever that. That awareness is. But they. They can't, like, move. They can't pick things up. They can't do anything. But maybe their consciousness, the spirit of nature, could manifest some type of form in the physical for a limited amount of time to do a certain task for them.

[B]

That is a funny concept. Like an egregore. Yeah, but created by plants, but created by nature.

[A]

Other animals.

[B]

Yeah, it's funny. The Canadian Space Agency. Did you see their patch?

[A]

Oh, the parking lot.

[B]

What parking lot?

[A]

The Canadian space agency.

[B]

Oh, the parking lot. Yeah, the giant platform. That's. Yeah, no, that's. Yeah, that's where they're gonna test, you know, whatever. I don't even know, but they have a patch that they put on Jeremy. I forget his last name, but he was, you know, the. The pilot and astronaut that went on Artemis 2 for the moon thing. And the Canadian patch features a bigfoot on. Was really quite nice. And they explained the. And it was not unlike what you're saying, but they had like, all these different animals because it was taken from first nations and sort of, you know, the orca and this. And then that represents different things. And on there was like, the, you know, the walk in Sasquatch. And I forget what the significance of it was, but I think it was something or other about sort of the mystery of, I don't know, like the. The Canadian wilderness. I could be mistaken. I. I really. I really want to look it up.

[A]

But, you know, you. You hear these stories all the time. And for example, like, someone's in the woods and they're looking at this tree or this bush, and suddenly this Bigfoot just materializes out of it and just scares them, runs away from. There's a story I heard up in Manitoulin island area, which is in Ontario, where, you know, someone was on an ATV in the woods. It flipped over. They went to go search for them. They couldn't find them for a week or two. Finally, the guy comes out of the cave. He comes out of a cave in the forest, and he's got, like, broken leg and all these things he's found. And they said, you know, what happened to you? He said, well, I woke up and something took me into the cave and these little people, these little things, they fed me, they healed my leg, like they fixed it up for me and they got me better to leave the forest. You know, it's like you hear stories in Canada like this all the time and you can go search for them, you'll never find them again. This whole concept of the spirit of nature and that maybe there's this intelligence that can manifest and literally manifest and walk into our world to do a task and then go back into the ethers.

[B]

Yeah, like, like, not unlike Jacques Vallee sort of control system idea where we're dealing with some intelligent omnipresent force that can, for whatever reason it deems necessary, interfere at certain key moments in time and sometimes to just even, you know. I know. Grant, what's his name?

[A]

Cameron.

[B]

Yeah, Grant Cameron. Grant Cameron has, you know, the theory of wow and sort of. That it manifests in order to inspire us or in order to. Yeah. Sort of create that wonder, instill wonder in us.

[A]

Um, I, I think it's the same thing for having these out of body experiences. And, you know, when you were telling

[B]

me your story, but like the backwards version.

[A]

Yeah, it. It's almost like. Because remember, I never asked for this. I wasn't looking for it and it happened. And when the phenomenon happens to a person that wasn't expecting it. Yeah, it's. It's like you have just shattered their reality. You shattered their life. Like, my old life ended that day because it was like I saw something grander that I couldn't explain. And because of that event, that one event in my life, it now put me on this completely different path. You know, meeting new people, researching new things, and going and exploring these worlds that would never have happened if something didn't put me into sleep paralysis. So, you know, when you were saying, at first I thought that shadow was a very negative thing because it was putting me in sleep paralysis. I was fearful, I felt terror. What if that was just all coming from me? And that whatever that thing was, I call it now, I call it the Initiator, because it's like whatever that thing was, it put me on a new path. It's like once I left my body, it was like its task was done and then I didn't see it again like that.

[B]

Oh, interesting. Or like a gatekeeper, perhaps just someone guarding the body. The shadow people do come up quite frequently as well. Have you Ever ran into them since then?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I see them quite often, but again, I don't know exactly what they are, and I think that they're actually living people, a lot of them. Not dead people, Living people.

[B]

Oh, other people. Exploring.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

I think that there's other. I think it's part of us, and I think it's also wounded parts of us. Because I've had experiences. Again, I'll go back to, like, this kind of shamanic philosophy where it's like, let's say you go through a trauma. They say that the soul itself is shattered when you go through certain traumas. And that hurt piece of you, it now creates its own egregore, basically. So that energy of yours is now separated from you and it starts to grow. So it grows from, let's say, emotions or thought forms or reliving those memories of that hurt and that pain, but it lives outside of you, but it's connected to you. So you might be attacked by these shadows, and you're pushing them away and pushing them away, and it might actually be a broken part of yourself that used to be you. And it wants reintegration. It wants healing, but you're scared. You have no idea what this is, and you're trying to fight this thing off of you.

[B]

You know, would that make. Would that make the phenomenon then, to a certain extent, psychological? Like, deeply, like what we're dealing with is perhaps just a projection of our own psychology or others. Do you think there's an objective reality there?

[A]

I. I really do think there is.

[B]

What. What makes you believe that?

[A]

Just from learning about different native shamanic cultures and even going back to ancient paganism as well, these are very old belief systems, and it. It included this kind of spiritual understanding of nature and spiritual understanding of ourselves and knowing that we are more than the physical body and, you know, this is where ritual magic came from, was understanding energy, understanding the self, understanding how to build that energy. Like you were talking about the aggregor, for example, you know, a bunch of people putting their energies towards it, giving offerings of energy to keep feeding this thing, to grow it, and then giving it tasks. You know, this is old, old stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then we kind of get into the place of the last couple thousand years where it's like it's demonized, and for good reason, for a lot of it, but it's also kind of been erased from us.

[B]

Why do you think. Why do you. Why do you say there's a good reason for it to be demonized?

[A]

Well, I can Say that a person that knows these things, knows how to use these things, has an advantage over people that don't know these things. I see.

[B]

Okay. I see what you're saying. So, like, the manipulation of reality. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And that's. That's demonized.

[A]

Well, we're not. We're not supposed to know about certain things. And if we don't understand it, how can we protect ourselves against it? How do we build our own energies to understand that difference between something, you know, that's attacking us? You know, a lot of people go through things and, you know, this is not medical advice, but, you know, there's some people that, let's say they have certain thoughts that come into their mind or certain triggers that keep getting pushed. And, you know, what if this was like a spiritual kind of parasite that continues to push these buttons on you to extract energy? So this is their goal, so they want to succubus. Yeah. It's almost like trying to keep the human in a perpetual state, whatever that state is. Obsession, addiction, sickness, keep them in a perpetual state so that they have access to you and your energy. And if we think that this is invisible and it doesn't exist, then we have nothing to fight against it. And it's just knowledge that will separate someone that knows how to deal with this and someone that doesn't. I'm not giving up.

[B]

I am selling the building.

[A]

The final season of FX is the Bear.

[B]

The restaurant is flooded.

[A]

Everything's either going to be okay. No, stop.

[B]

Or not.

[A]

We are outgunned and we are outmanned,

[B]

but we have each other.

[A]

FX is the Bear. The final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney plus.

[B]

Interesting. Do you think that the ritual matters, like, when it. When it comes to these things? We're speaking about magic with a K here. Do you think that the individual sequences or steps to be able to do some of these things, do you think that they actually matter? Or is it the energy behind them that matters more?

[A]

The ritual is extremely important. To start, okay, you have to build the structure of intention, all right? And the ritual is the continuation. It's almost like the muscle memory of the building, of the action.

[B]

I see.

[A]

And then after all that, you need the form. You need steps 1 through 10 to do it so many times that now you become formless.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Now you don't even need to do the ritual. It's almost like ingrained as, like, a spiritual muscle.

[B]

Interesting, because I've given a lot of thought to that as well. As someone who, you know, for 20 years being a professional magician, very skeptical about these things and yet completely intertwined with them at the same time. Like, everything from a magician's branding. You know, if you're a magician out there and you got a business card, it's like you got the name, you know, oh, Deception Artist. Or like, it's. It's ingrained in there. And then there's, like, pentagrams. There's all these, like, you know, sigils and sort of signets and whatever that have these ties to magic with a K. Like, I mean, the initial. The initial books on magic were written. You know, they're 600 years old, and they were about ritualistic magic. But how to sort of invoke these things through trickery, and that's where eventually parlor magic came from, was using the techniques that were used to fool people into believing the ritualistic stuff and using it for entertainment purposes and sort of creating that dichotomy and that separation between the two, where now the most. Ironically, the most disillusioned people are magicians. Like, they. They completely don't believe in any of that stuff. They're incredibly skeptical about all the magic with a K stuff, and they've completely separated the ritual for entertainment only. Whereas now I'm starting to believe, or at least I'm starting to. I don't know, my conviction level is a little higher than it was before on the idea that if you can trick the mind into believing something's real, that that is a key ingredient into these rituals, and that's a key ingredient into creating these egregore, creating these manifestations or apportations or whatever it is. Like, that's the ingredient for me. Would you. Would you agree with that or would you.

[A]

I would say that suggestion is very powerful. Yeah, because you're getting the person then to go along with your energy. So they've now given you access to their energy. Okay. To their life force, where then they can now build this reality with you because they've already submitted to that suggestion. And again, this is. I don't know much about, like, the type of magic that you're talking about, but I do know that it's like we have. If you go back to the Egyptian system, we have something called ka, which is like the energy body. And that ka is something that you take from life. So you could take it from food, you could take from the air, you could take it from the sun. You know, every time you're consuming something, you're taking that energy and you're. You're satisfying the Ka. Within you, you're building this energy light body. And it's almost like. So there's. It's kind of like the matrix where it's like you're the battery and you can build. So how strong is your battery? And the stronger your battery is, you could push and pull energy better. And this is also a concept in qigong, right? You know, so you have to build your energy body up. You have to strengthen your electromagnetic fields. You got to get the flow going, your connection to the earth and the sky. And then once you have this kind of energy, your suggestion level and what you can do with that energy is greater and greater and greater.

[B]

What's something that you would deem as an objective example that sort of proves any of this? And I mean proof in a loose term. But, like, what would you point to? Would you point to a specific practice that brings you something? Would you point to something you've personally manifested in your life? Or how would you. To someone who's dubious about these things say no? Here's an example of this working.

[A]

I would say that my favorite would be instant healing. So, like, kind of like a miraculous thing happens to you. And this has happened to me on a number of occasions. And I'll tell you, like, just a very simple story, because there was a time where I was doing personal sessions with people, like, doing, like, energy work in qigong. And I was helping this man out to his car. This is an older man in a wheelchair, so I'm putting him in his car. And I slammed the door on my middle finger. You know those times where it's like you slam the door and you pull your finger out? And my nail was already black. Like, it was that instant, and it was just throbbing with pain. And I'm like, okay, I know I'm going to lose this nail, right? So I'm like, something clicks. It's like, okay, I need to, like, use my energy. I need, you know, I'm taught all these things. I need to, like, do it.

[B]

And you're teaching them, right?

[A]

So I go. And I go into my room, and I have all these different essential oils, and I have all these different crystals, and I'm like, okay. And just. I knew I had to pick up this crystal, and I took. I just. I knew I had to take that oil, and I put it on my finger and I put it on the crystal, and I'm just breathing. And one of my teachers used to teach me, and I don't recommend this for everybody. I'll just tell you what they taught me is that the pain is the healing. Okay. That was the key in this teaching. They're saying the pain is the healing. And never go away from the pain. Go into the pain. Try to experience the pain as much as you can. All right? So that was one of the teachings that was given to me, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to do it now because my finger is just throbbing in pain, and I'm just breathing. Doing the qigong breath. I'm focusing on the pain in my finger and throbbing. And it's almost like it felt like a hose open. It's just like this energy opened in my finger, and it felt like hot air, like extremely hot air was, like, blowing out of my finger. That's exactly what it felt like. A valve, just a valve opening up in, like, hot air just shooting out of my finger.

[B]

And I was like, did you feel the pressure subside?

[A]

Yeah. And I never felt this before. This was like an energetic thing. I've never felt this experience before in my life. And I just like, okay, this is new. I'm like, I'm doing something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so then I go to sleep. In the morning, I wake up and I look at my finger, and it was. It had no sign of anything. Like, it was black. When I started in the morning, it was completely fine, and there was no pain. And for me, that was like. I just witnessed a miracle.

[B]

Whoa. It was still black, though. No, no, no.

[A]

Completely gone.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Like, overnight.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Overnight. Now, here's the. Here's the stupid thing, and this is stupid, just because it's me, is that I should never play football. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Literally, a week after this incident, instance, my friend says, let's throw the football around. So we're in the backyard throwing the football around, and, you know, it's a real football, and it, you know, spiraled, and again, it hit the same freaking

[B]

finger right on the tip.

[A]

Right on the tip. And I think I. I don't know if I didn't get it checked. I don't know if it was broken or not. All I know is the finger blew up to about three fingers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it was that bad and that swollen, and I couldn't move it. And so I did it again. Grab that crystal. Grab that oil. I'm like, it worked. Last week, I did it again, and the exact same thing happened.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

This thing opened up, the pressure released. But the next day, it was still there. It was much better, but it took, like, three days instead of overnight.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And then I'm like, okay, who's ever, like, guiding me or teaching me? I've learned my lesson. I don't need to be hurt anymore.

[B]

So what did you feel when you were, like, going towards the crystal and the oil? Like, did you just unconsciously. This one and this one? Or was there, like, a pull? Did you feel something?

[A]

Well, it's like an unconscious pull.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's like, I don't know why I chose those crystals. I just knew that that was the one. And if you knew me back then, where I lived, my room had, I think, a crystal on every shelf. So there's probably hundreds of crystals to choose from. But I went right in on one of them, and I had a. Sorry about that. And I had a display of about 50 different essential oils, and I just was like, I need this one. So, yeah, I don't know why I picked those two, but for me, it just made sense.

[B]

And you think that mattered versus the other ones? You think that was the specific ingredient, or was it, again, more the intention?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't know. It could have been both. Could have been suggestive. I don't. I don't know. Yeah, but remember, I'm in a. I'm in panic mode.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I'm just, like, running. Right? Like, I didn't. I kept a straight face to the guy who drove away. I just, like, all right, goodbye. And I ran in and just did what I had to do.

[B]

Because I think that, you know, we often talk about this term scientifically as, like, a placebo effect, and then explain it away with that. Like, that's some sort of satisfactory answer to the problem. Placebo is magic. Like that. It doesn't make sense. It shouldn't work. Right. Like, we agree, when you have clinical trials and people are given a placebo and all of a sudden are feeling or actually doing physically better, which I think there's proof of this. I mean, to just chalk it up to, oh, that's just placebo. That's how the mind works. For me, that isn't satisfactory. Like, there is something happening where suggestion is powerful. Like, extremely powerful. And so this is why I would ask the question, does the ritual matter? Does the specific ingredient matter? Does that crystal matter? And I think it matters if you believe it matters, if that makes sense. Like, if you have a strong enough belief or even faith or knowing without knowing that this will work, then that's the ingredient that you need. Do you know. Do you kind of understand what I'm saying?

[A]

I would say that the mind is the Most important ingredient. It's like you have to focus your mind on the outcome and the goal. And I think this is part of the magic as well. So, you know, just a simple thing. Like when I was in the hospital, I actually broke my back. Well before. So 2017, I broke my back. And so I'm in the hospital.

[B]

That's not too long ago.

[A]

No.

[B]

Whoa. What happened?

[A]

Fell down some stairs.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Okay, but not this way. I fell sideways downstairs. Yeah, it was dark.

[B]

And that's not how you go downstairs, Jason.

[A]

I would not recommend it. And it's funny because, like, I've hurt myself in the past a lot. And when I was at the bottom of the stairs, I just thought I was winded. I was like, it's okay. I just need to get my breath back and I'll get back up. And you know, my wife is like, don't move and we're calling the ambulance and all this. Thank God she did. Because me, I would have just tried to get up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in the hospital room, I didn't ask her to do this. But my wife, you know, she. There was this whiteboard that you can write on, and she wrote, I get stronger every day. Just simple, like a simple message. And a lot of people, you know, when they go through, like a traumatic thing in their life, a life changing thing, it's very easy for the mind to go dark. It's very easy to say, like, I'm going to give up. I'm never going to do this again. This is. My life is going to change. You can't have your mind go there. You have to, like, set your mind into goals. Like. And I know it's hard to say, maybe there's people watching. They'll say, well, in my situation, it's very hard to think that way because of these things that I carry. But even if you carry some really bad things, you've been dealt a really bad hand. You still need to keep that mindset going. Like I was telling you earlier, I go to Japan quite frequently. And it was like a week before I was going to go to Japan, so I had to cancel my trip. And it. I was speaking to my friends in Japan, I said, listen, the doctors said that three months, I'll start feeling a little better after the surgery. I have two rods and 10 screws in my back. And so I said to my friends, this was right after the accident. I said to my friends, don't worry, just set the date. I'll be in Japan in three months. So I Was already in my mind convinced, convincing myself that I'm going to be in Japan in three months, you know, and I was.

[B]

And that's what helped. That made the difference. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense to me that, that type of strong conviction about things, you know, you don't have to look further than someone saying, I'm going to fail this test, I'm going to fail this test, I'm going to fail this test. And the other person being like, I'm going to pass this test. And watch, watch them both fulfill their own prophecies. They are self fulfilling prophecies and we do that regularly every day. Everyone listening now can point to someone in their life who has one of those two things. Either this person who's like, I'm just unlucky, or this other person who goes through life feeling like they're the luckiest person alive and both of their lives sort of unfolding accordingly. And so yeah, it is a. And that's really nice of your wife to put that up in writing because I think that's probably something that you needed to read at that moment. Very cool. I want to go back to some of the beings that you encountered. We veered little into, into the, the dark arts of magic here. But I do want to talk about them a little bit more because I think there's an interesting intersection between ufology and the study of consciousness in regards to out of body and astral states. The entities are often mirrored, they're often talked about in both cases. But one thing also is with abductions. Many, many, many, many of the abductions. I would say possibly a vast majority. I don't know the exact number, but it feels like a majority of the abductions of the takings are happening in the non physical where the soul, body is sort of pulled out of the body and through the wall that these beings themselves run through the walls. And they are also non physical. What's your take on that?

[A]

I feel like I'm talking to myself now. Yeah, no, because this is what I've been saying forever, ever since I learned about this. And there was this writer, his name was Bob Mitchell. And this is the conversations that me and Bob would have because you know, he was documenting experiences of abduction. That was his thing. He really liked taking down. He was a journalist, so he took down everybody's story that had abductions. And when he heard my story and I was saying, okay, this is like your consciousness is being taken out of your body. And because you've never had this experience before, it's so real that of course you think you're taken physically, 100% you're taken physically because you don't know the difference if you've never done this before. And I said, okay, Bob, listen, tell me in all your cases, in journalism, of all these cases, let's do like a 1 to 10, what happens in their experiencing of abduction? And they go, you know, well, at first they get woken up, let's say in the middle of the night. They feel like their body is frozen, they can't move in their bed. I'm like, okay, let's keep going. They may start to feel like a buzzing or a warm sensation. They may hear like metallic sounds and then there's like a separation. It's like that. Now they're floating above their bed. I'm like, okay. And now they go either like a white light comes in or they get taken through the windows or the walls. And now they find themselves in a ship and there's beings. I'm like, okay, now let me write down exactly my out of body experience.

[B]

Yeah, I can see where this is

[A]

going, you know, and it's like exactly from 1 to 10. Almost exactly the same as someone that's documenting their own abduction scenario. And so for me, I came into this from the shamanic background, the spiritual background. So when I was having these experiences of altered states, I knew they were altered states. I knew what I was entering into, I knew that my body is sleeping in bed, my consciousness is separated, and now I'm having these experiences. Whereas someone that is having these experiences where they're not aware, it's very terrifying, it's very real. What I found incredible is that in my own personal out of body states is that I've come in contact with again, beings that are described in abduction scenarios. So I'd come across those mantids, I'd come across those grays, I'd come across those reptilians, I'd come across them. And in my journeys I'm like, wow, this is an out of body experience. So it was like a mystery being solved for me. And I'm not discounting any physical things whatsoever. I'm not discounting anybody else's physical experience.

[B]

Yeah, no, of course.

[A]

But I'm saying from my perspective, I came from it, from the altered perception. And, and funny enough, people that go on shamanic journeys, that do plant medicines like ayahuasca or peyote or mushroom ceremonies or, you know, they know what they're doing, they're going on a journey, they're taking These plant medicines and they find themselves where being taken to UFOs. Yeah, you know, if the shaman, their friends will be right with them on the ground, you know, singing their songs or putting sage around them and saying, you're doing great and here's a bucket to throw up in. But in their experience, they're not there, they're on a ship sometimes they're being operated on, they're being healed. So we have to kind of. We can't ignore that.

[B]

No, there's a correlation to be made, I definitely think, and that's one of the reasons I want to bring it up because I think that like there is so much crossover now, like you said, that doesn't discount the physical stuff. More importantly, I think once people, especially people who are a little more, let's say materialist or you know, less inclined to look into the esoteric stuff, they would be quick to say, oh, sleep paralysis, got it done, we're out of here, we solved it, it's sleep paralysis. That's what you did. Oh, you saw alien sleep paralysis. And they just brush the entire thing off. And that's what I'm always trying to explain to people who might be a little more skeptical is that, well, perhaps there's more to that sleep paralysis stuff than you might think. Brushing off something as sleep paralysis is easy, especially if you haven't had it. Just like one of these encounters or an out of body experience or even some type of kundalini experience or breaking through on dmt. Like all of these things are easy to brush off if you haven't had a firsthand experience with them. And so explaining that to someone who hasn't had it is as I looked at the time, by the way. It was 111111. Very, very fitting. It was like the first time I looked at it too. Yeah, I think there is definitely a correlation. But that shouldn't stop us from studying what is going on. Why are we seeing the same beings?

[A]

Some people will say, it's all in your mind. It's a hallucination. And I go to them, I know it is all in my mind. It's all in your mind too.

[B]

Yeah, everything's all in the mind.

[A]

We're all taking it and putting it together through our own filters and we're trying to make sense of our reality. And our reality is a trip. Yeah, just, just when you actually look at who we are as a species, where we are on Earth, where we are in space, if we keep going and going and going, you realize like this is nuts. Like, how do we even exist? This is magic that we're sitting here and talking about.

[B]

Yeah, it is. And it. It is magic. And at the same time, there's a part of me that feels like this is incredibly primitive. Do you know what I mean? Like, there is something miraculous that we're sitting here making vibrations with vocal cords and that you're picking up what I'm saying and instantly translating it in your mind. And it makes sense to you, but it's so slow. It's. It's not the. It's not the. I don't know. When you have these dreams or when you have these experiences. There is a knowing that happens. Noesis. Or like, there is an understanding that. Careful, if you do this, this will happen. And it's instant. You don't have to put words to it. You don't have to be told anything. It's just a knowing. And it's just this. This almost seems to be like the slower modality in terms of communication that we found.

[A]

Well, you know, they keep saying we're spiritual beings living in a physical body, right? And if that's the case, then we are already telepathic. We're already. We already know the future. This has already happened. We've lived thousands or infinite lives. We've been through time and space. So maybe this is just like what we're experiencing now is just like the tiniest little seed of that spiritual consciousness is being placed in this body to have this experience. And being here for this amount of time, you grow that kind of spiritual being from this little drop in the sea to maybe like a glass of water, and then it gets poured back into the ocean.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, it's just. We just are experiencing this right now. And this is another thing you learn in the out of body experiences. It's also what you learn on ayahuasca and all these other plant medicines. And it's the dissolving of boundaries. All right? And the best way that I could explain dissolving a boundary is what is a boundary? You could say our body is a boundary. So we exist within our body, we exist within our mind, right? So we identify as this thing here. I'm Jason, you're Chris. Like, we identify as these two individuals and we're having this life now. What if we dissolve that boundary? Who are you? So now you've lost your body, now you've lost your mind. Where does that consciousness kind of escape to? What's that next boundary? What is catching you next? And in these experiences, if you do want to go deeper and deeper and deeper. It's almost like you kind of dissolve the boundary. Dissolve the boundary until it's like, oh my God. It's like to oneness, it's, it's just this consciousness, it's just this field and you know, as we're coming down, it's like coming down through the dimensions is a good way of describing it. It's almost like, it's just like a doorway. You come through a density as a doorway. You get this understanding or knowledge or body and then you come down through this and you get this understanding. And when you, when you pass or when you're going into these very deep states, it's almost like you're going the opposite direction. You're saying, okay, I'm going to leave this dimension, I'm going to leave this body and now I'm over here. Well, you know, I'm bored here now I'm going to leave this and go out here until, and then how do you explain that to somebody?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you come back and you're like, man, I was everything.

[B]

Yeah, good job. Anyway, you wouldn't believe what I saw. No, absolutely. Have you ever heard of the flatlands Bob analogy?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, so that kind of idea there where you take a, you know, if you appeared in the two dimension, like if I stuck my finger in a two dimension, they would just perhaps see a line appear or something and not the entire hand. Right. And then if I picked them up and said, hey, this is up. Explain to your friends what up is. And this two dimensional figure would be like, it's kind of like forward and backwards, except it's up and down. I don't know, I don't know how else to explain it. You know, there's, there's no words that can describe that.

[A]

It's like your experience when you said you tried to open your eyes and you saw the cube.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the energies going around it.

[B]

It's like, okay, yeah, some tesseract, some fourth dimensional object is all I can sort of say. It is interesting when you think about those dimensions though because like I can, I can draw a, a representation of a three dimensional object in two dimensions. Just like we can create a representation of a fourth dimensional object in the third dimension, which is like a tesseract. And it's just hard for me to comprehend that I'll never be able to see a fourth dimensional object or. Sorry. To perceive a fourth dimensional object in the fourth dimension. I can only ever stare at it. Just like this little Two dimensional cube and just have an idea of what a fourth dimension could be like. But I could never. But I can reach into lower dimensions in my existence and understand what the third, the second and the first dimension are. I have a very faint grasp on what the fourth dimension could be. But you know, above that you have no access.

[A]

Right. And I think that's also when we leave and do these experiences. The brain has to process that information. So it needs to kind of create those archetypes, create those scenes or those beings for you to integrate whatever you just went through, which could be very traumatizing or very hard for a lot of people. Like, especially in the shamanic journeying, a lot of these journeys is like animals will come and rip you to pieces and eat you and then you get reassembled and you wake up like a new person. Well, is that actually happening to you? I don't think so, but that's the way that it's interpretive. It's like a shamanic language of dissolution and then coming back together.

[B]

So, yeah, ego, death or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, like, so we can't understand it. But again, I think if like again, with the whole concept of boundaries, of dissolving boundaries, it's like every time you hit the next one, think of it as a container or your next body or next thing, and it's only in that body that then you can experience that fourth dimension experience. Because I know with astral travel people will explain astral travel as there's no space or there's no time. So there's different laws of physics. There's something different about that space that allows you to, let's say, jump to other timelines or alternative timelines, or jump from one location to the next either through a portal like you've experienced in virtually no time. You could have crossed time, space dimensions instantly, you know, so the laws change, the rules change as you enter into these different states.

[B]

Do you think there is a substrate in this reality that is fundamental across all dimensions?

[A]

Can you explain that a little more?

[B]

So like we might consider it like zero point field or the quantum field or the vacuum, as this sort of omnipresent fundamental thing that exists across all dimensions. Like this might be the primary fundamental thing, dimension, if you will. And then built upon that is this secondary reality, which is our physical reality. But we have to use this to build this. Do you think across all dimensions there is a fundamental substrate?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. And the only word I can call it is the void. From my understanding of it, it's like the only Way I could describe it is kind of like a old Egyptian creation myth, you know, where the void is kind of like the dark cosmic waters. So the God none. And it's just darkness, chaos, there's nothing to it. But this is like the turning of creation. And then once that spiritual form has awareness, it separates from it and it becomes the light. And because of that light now exists, it shines and this mound of earth comes up. So it's building this creation, this reality. And from those two aspects, rising out of this darkness suddenly now creation could be born and materialized in different ways. So it's almost like, like you're drawing. It's just kind of like this stepping stone of, from this underlying something. And it's funny because when I say this underlying something, that's who me and you are sure we come from that. We return to that. We never. We're in it right now.

[B]

Yeah, it is everything.

[A]

It is everything. But it's, it's. How do we experience it? Like, I know I'm, you know, I'm not delusional. I know I can't stick my hand through this table right now. You know, there are laws that govern this world, but then again it's like the laws that govern this also govern other things. And that's why I said that I think that as we transfer through different dimensions or different altered states, these laws do get changed. And that's why in the out of body experience, you know, you could pass through the walls, no problem. Because maybe you and it are just a projection.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's a mind boggling thing to think about. And I often think about it in the face of sort of trying to explain away, you know, our reality and what it is like. If you look at, if you take the material, the materialist take of it would be, you know, the brain exists and the brain makes consciousness and the brain projects things and that's. You're perceiving things because of the brain. And where, you know, I, where I think that is just completely false is that we seem to agree that like there is a quantum vacuum, the void or whatever it is, even science agrees that there is something right, that everything is made of, that everything is attached to some web, some cosmic web or whatever. But the thing is we're trying to take this secondary reality, this physical reality that we live in, and we're trying to box this so it fits here. Do you know what I mean? We're like making a physical box and being like this is what everything's made of. And then we're assuming things, and based on those assumptions, we make formulas that turn out to be correct in our mathematics. So that it proves, quote unquote, that that is what reality is. Is that. Oh, that's all it is. It fits in this three dimension. And now we understand it. I feel like it's impossible to do that. You can't take something that's fundamental, have the offshoot of that fundamental thing that whatever this offspring is here that we live in, and fit that into what we call reality. There's no way.

[A]

How can you blow out a candle through a mirror?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's like we're the reflection of something and we're trying to hold on to the thing that's making the reflection.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But you can't because you're behind this pane of glass, you know, so it's very difficult to kind of wrap your mind around it.

[B]

Yeah. That's like somebody without ears telling me, based on numbers, what music is. And it's like. Or, you know what I mean? And you're like, you can't fully appreciate music. I think if you don't hear it, you sure you can have an understanding of it? And there is a math to it. Absolutely. So you can make your formulas and you can prove that, you know, the octaves are there and, like, everything has to follow a certain rhythm and flow and. Yes, but without hearing it, how can you possibly understand it? And how can you fit it into this box of mathematics? There is a whole other dimension to music that. That has nothing to do with math, and that is the interpretation of the sounds and how they make you feel and everything else. And I'm sure there's a math to that, but there is this dissonance between the two that we seem to ignore or, you know, just for the sake of our own sanity, you know?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. And, you know, you're talking about music, and I'm a music guy, and the secret to music is space, as in, you know, the silence between the sounds. You know, you need both. And I think this is what we're talking about. You have to kind of experience both this in and out type of breath to understand these things. So, again, it's like. It's the same thing as, like philosophers in ancient times. We're trying to explain the inexplainable.

[B]

Right. You know, and we can package it

[A]

and package it and say, I figured it out. Here it is. Here's the formula.

[B]

I can go to sleep now.

[A]

Here's the hig boson. It's Done, like, pop your champagne. We've. We've figured out reality. No, it's like, it's almost like when you look out into space, for example, now with the telescopes that we have, we know that it's like, I would say it's like infinite. Like our mind can't even accept the scale of what the universe is. And is this the only universe? And then you have dimensions within the universal structure. So there's such a grandness in scale. And the thing is, when we turn it around and go to a microscopic level, and you keep going and going and going, you're like, wow, this is like never ending as well. So we're like kind of like in this middle place between scales, just like the music scales. And we're just experiencing this tiny little vibration of creation. And as we go this way or this way, it doesn't matter. It's infinite. Type of experience.

[B]

Yeah, beautifully said. Yeah. There is as above, so below. It is infinite in both ways. And if you zoom in or zoom out far enough, it starts to look awfully, you know, similar.

[A]

And that's why I've thrown in the towel. Yeah, it's like, you know, how much more can you try to figure out? I'll just tell this, this one thing is that because I spent years and years of like meditating trying to find these or fine tune these ideas. And I got this, this message and it was, you need. You can't live your life between four walls. It's like, because that's what I was doing. I was sitting in my room and meditating between four walls. And I'm thinking, I'm gonna figure out life. No, you need to get out. You need to talk to people. You need to experience things. Get out. Stop what you're doing. It was a pretty strong message. And I'm like, but I'm meditating. I'm going to find the secrets of creation. They're like, not in your bedroom. Go outside, get some fresh air.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with. It's an epiphany that I had myself after my last out of body experience was I'm on this journey trying to use my body as a microscope, to look inwards and to be like, okay, what can I discover about the universe and the answers and the answer to life, the universe and everything, so to speak. And when I got this sort of semi confirmation while I was meditating in broad daylight and seemingly left my body or felt that way without falling asleep, completely lucid, walking around my room, you know, afterwards, I was very Excited about that. And the thought popped into my head of, okay, there is more than my physical body. There is more to life, to reality, to this existence than my physicalness. And that was a sort of proof. And that might not be death, that might not be what comes after it might be an extension of this, I don't know. But it was more than my physical reality, whatever that is. It was non physical and it wasn't this. And I thought, you know, so many people when they go out of body, a lot of them, it happens during like a near death experience and they're floating, they see themselves, same symptoms. And so I said, okay, there's a correlation between these two. Like there is something here between the astral and out of body states and near death and dying, like there is a correlation here. So I just asked myself like, well, what's the hurry then? What am I so in a rush to die for? Why do I want to know what death is? Like? I'm going to get there, I promise you I will get there. That is the only certainty in this physical existence that I can promise myself is that I'll get there. But now I got to ask myself, why am I trying to get there all the time? Like, you know, if this body is some type of container vessel, meat suit for the soul that we incarnate into, if that is the case, then giving up, instant manifestation, eternal reality, the most beautiful existence of all knowing and you can travel anywhere and have everything giving all that up to be here in this transient little, you know, moment. That has to mean something, right?

[A]

That's the message I was, I got is, you know, everybody from my perspective, it was like, you know, the whole point is this kind of ascension idea where it's like, I'm going to expand, I'm going to get into this oneness state. I'm going to be with God and everything. And the more I started to go down that road, the more it was turned the other way, it was more like, you're here. That's the point. It's like this is you normally.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

But now you're here and this, you need to, to, to get healthy. You got to figure stuff out. You got to change your tires, you got to pay your taxes, you know, you got to have relationships, you got to talk to people. Yeah, yeah, you have to do these things. And this is where the, the spiritual fulfillment will come that you're looking for will actually manifest and come from. And so it was, it was an interesting turnaround. But you know, you go, it's the same thing with life. You go one direction, you think you're going to find something in this direction and you realize it was already over there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You walked away from it.

[B]

Yeah. But you had to walk away to realize it. Yeah. Yeah. Well put. Okay, so you've obviously had a ton of out of body experiences.

[A]

Now.

[B]

You've met entities, you've interacted with them in different ways, interacted with different realities essentially in different ways. Have you ever come across. Because there's a lot of out of body experiencers that say that they had a job to do in the astral, which is helping people move on. I had Preston Dennett here who's saying, yeah, it's like you're just recruited once you go out of body and to have these jobs and to like help people. Has that ever happened to you?

[A]

At first, really? At first. This is stuff that happened like right near the beginning of things where it was like you'd be taken out of body and you'd be with like a group of people and it's like you're going to witness somebody die.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like, I don't know this person, but maybe they know me. Like, I don't understand it, but it's almost like you get called to help through transitions. I've been to some pretty weird ones. Like I've been called by aliens. I know it's a weird thing to say.

[B]

That's the title of the video now.

[A]

It's a weird thing to say because that's the only way I could describe it. It's like I had this one experience where I left my body and it was like this alien was like on the run. That's all I could. It was like it was being hunted by something and it was like hiding in like a cave. It looked like a desert and it looked like a tall gray alien, but it wasn't gray. It was like salmon pink color. Like that's what it looked like. And it's like, why am I being called here? And it's like this being, whatever it was, it was like so scared, like something was going to happen to it. It was going to get caught by somebody and it's being hunted. And it's like, okay, I'm here, I'm with you. Like, explain these things. I, I don't understand these things. But this is what started to happen at these first like stages of, of leaving the body.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

It's like you don't ask for it. It's just like you, you're just taken there. It's. It's like. You don't say, I'm gonna go.

[B]

No. It's like a job that you had to do. Yeah. So strange. I wonder what that could be. Any ideas, any hypotheses?

[A]

I think we play many roles, just like valets. The phenomenon has many faces. I think that we play many roles as well at different levels of understanding. So I don't understand it from my perspective as a human being. I don't understand it yet. Maybe I'll never understand it. But maybe it's like maybe when I came to for somebody's transition, maybe they didn't see me as Jason. Maybe they saw me as an older relative of them from, let's say, another life or something. And that's who they recognize to allow them to make that transition. And transition is a very important word because that's what I feel the astral state is. It's kind of like this transitionary world between the spiritual and physical. It's like the waiting area, you know, and it's like beings from different places to connect with you here in the physical. You know, let's just hypothetically say that there's someone you know on some planet in another universe. Well, how are they going to reach you? They're going to leave their body, they're going to go into this astral form. And this is kind of like the transitionary meeting place between these worlds where there is no time and space and you could have this interaction. And maybe when you do die, that's kind of the process. You go to this kind of transitionary place where you're met with beings that you're familiar with and they kind of get you familiar with this transition state. And then from that transition state you travel to other places.

[B]

That's an interesting way to put it as well. I know that Robert Monroe had a. Something similar, I think he called it like the. Was like the Intergalactic Cafe or something like that, where he. It was like Focus 19 or something. And he would go to this place and he would meditate, essentially sit down at this diner somewhere, maybe not unlike the diner we got here, and wait for someone to come sit down in front of him and have a conversation. This, this is another being from another dimension or whatever. But they were coming and going through these different tubes or whatever, like some type of sci fi, you know, Jetsons movie. But that is an interesting idea that this is just like a transitionary space that we can interact with or something

[A]

that we can create because it's Almost like a matrix or created reality that is like a dreamscape. So think of it like this way. Let's say that there's a spiritual being or just, you know, let's say an alien, for simplicity terms, on another planet. And they want to have a meeting with you, they want to talk to you, but instead of just sending you telepathic messages or channeling through you, you're dreaming. And you get pulled from your dream state into this kind of like, you say, like a boardroom. And you're sitting. So you're sitting at the table, and across from you is this alien. It's like, okay, I'm in the matrix now. You've created this matrix.

[B]

And.

[A]

And they say, well, no, this is just the. The room that we've created in this space so that we can communicate with you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And when we're done, this doesn't exist anymore.

[B]

Wild. Okay.

[A]

And it's all in the mind.

[B]

It's all in the mind. Everything is mental.

[A]

It's all mental.

[B]

Yeah. As it was at the first law of hermeticism.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay, let's transition. Okay, a nice way to segue here into your latest book. I do want to talk about this a little bit because I think that this is rather fascinating. We've all heard about Atlantis and, you know, its purported locations, whether that's the eye of the Sahara or whether that's, you know, somewhere in the ocean or, you know, you name it. But you've had done some research and found that maybe, maybe this isn't exactly what Plato was talking about. And can you go into it? I'm sure it's very complex, but if you could at least topically sort of COVID it.

[A]

Well, I'll make it very simply. Let's go to the source, which is Plato. And Plato wrote two works. He was supposed to write three. One is called the Timaeus, one is called Critias. And Critias is halfway complete. So out of three books, you have one and a half, and you get the Atlantis story from the Timaeus, which is, like, introduced in the Timaeus, and that's the only full book that Plato wrote. And then you have, let's say, like a half a book of the Critias, which details Atlantis. Now, when you read the Atlantis story, there's a lot of, I would say, hermetic and ancient creation myth in there. And unless you know those creation myths, you won't be able to see them. And the way that Plato writes the story from Critias or Solon is In a way, a reflection of the universe. It's a reflection of the creation. And when I say this, and I know it is kind of complicated, but if you go to the actual story of Atlantis, it starts with Poseidon. He's gifted an allotment of land of earth. He's the God of the sea. On a central hill, there's an Earth family, has a daughter he falls in love with. He falls in love with her. He comes down, he puts land and water like a lathe, like circles of land and water around her to protect her. And he has children with her. So just starting from that standpoint, this is the beginning of the Atlantis story. Where have we heard this story before of the gods seeing the daughter of man falling in love with them, having demigod kings. So then she has five twins, sets of twins, and the firstborn they named Atlas. Now, who is Atlas? Why would Plato name this character Atlas? Well, in Greek mythology, Atlas is the Axis Mundi. He is the Titan who upholds the heaven. And that's why you see the statues with them holding the world. And they place the temple of Poseidon right at the center of the island. In the middle, there is an orichalcum, which is a sacred metal, it's a mythological metal, which is kind of reddish gold, a pillar directly in the center of the island. And then Atlas rules. Now, over time, they live in harmony, perfection. They navigate their naval power, and then they go to war. They get too much mixing with mortals, they become warlike. And then they're going to go outside their boundaries into the Straits of Gibraltar, which is the pillars of Hercules. Now, here's the thing. They give a date very specifically in the Timaeus and the critias, about 9,000 years, or it comes to 9,600 BC. If you look up in the sky at the northern sky, at that time, the North Pole is directly in between the legs of Hercules in the sky. So the myth or the story of Atlantis mirrors the actual date and timing of the stars in the heavens. So it's kind of this as above, so below story. And if you just turn back the clock slightly to when Atlantis would have been at its highest power. The pole star is Vega in the north sky. And so Vega is the brightest star in the north sky. If you go back 12,000 BCE, that star would have been so important for travelers because you need a north star, a stable north star to travel the world. You could only be a naval power. If you have this star and all the stars turn around it like as turns as a lathe. So it's kind of like this, as above, so below. Allegory of the procession of the north star over the 25,000, 26,000 year cycle. So that when Atlantis was the power, they had this star, perfect reflection of Atlantis in the sky. As the time passed, they moved outside their boundaries into the pillars, which esoterically means legs of Hercules. So now the pole star is in between Hercules and you have this cataclysm because there is no North Star anymore, right? You lose visibility and then you go about 6,000 years of darkness. There's no North Star for about 6,000 years until you hit Thuben. So you have this loss of the world, loss of cosmic navigational understanding.

[B]

The Great Flood.

[A]

The Great Flood, it's like the deluge, because it's the dark waters of space. It's all. And yes, of course there's a reflection between the younger Dryas and the date, but there is this kind of cosmic story. And what makes this so intriguing is that if you go to the Timaeus, which is the actual work of Plato, you have the Atlantis story that pops in just before Timaeus speaks, because the Timaeus is basically Timaeus time. And he talks about the creation of the world by the benevolent demiurge. And so right after Atlantis, he starts describing the creation of the universe. And he's saying he's talking about the circles of the same and the circles of the different, which is the fixed stars and the wandering stars and the six circles that are divided into seven and then the eighth circle. And so he's talking about the creation of the universe, describing it. And then Critias comes in and talks about the creation of Atlantis. And if you take the image of Timaeus talking about the creation of the universe, and you take the Atlantis story and you actually just merge them together. It's like they're describing that same circular pattern that Atlantis is shaped of. So I. There's so much here and that's why I had to write a book about it. But basically that these creation myths, the whole story of Atlantis can be found in other myths going back just by. It's almost like Plato took ancient creation myths and then he wrapped it and gave it a new name. You know, so when you actually read those quotes, it's very interesting because you have to know about Egypt, you have to know about the Egyptian creation myths, you have to know about the Odyssey, you have to know about 12 Labors of Hercules, you have to know about all these different myths to understand the story of Atlantis, because all of that existed at the time he wrote that.

[B]

That is. So it's a lot for someone like me to fathom. Because you think to yourself, like, well, why wouldn't you just say so? Right. Why would you go through the trouble of concocting such a insane confabulated story, you know, to just explain the procession of the stars? And I asked you this at Contact and you had a really good answer for this.

[A]

Well, the answer would say you have to look at Socrates, which was Plato's teacher. And Socrates was basically murdered by the state for basically infecting the youth with his ideas or teaching about the wrong gods. So you couldn't really discuss these things openly. And Plato observed his own teacher being murdered by hemlock. And he knew that, okay, he's going to open the school, he's going to be an initiatory teacher, he's going to create these stories which are called likely stories. And by giving this kind of fable, this myth, he's actually following a very long line of other authors in the past that create myths of the gods, but it's actually telling another story when initiated into this. So this is where we get into secret societies. This is where we get into the initiations in Egypt, where the general public, if you could understand the story, and the story is a good story, and he is great at making stories. This story will pass on for generation and generation, and it has exactly the way he wanted it. But you would have to be initiated into these other orders in order to have the keys to unlock them and understand it.

[B]

Yeah, to decipher them. Right, yeah. That's fascinating because it really does, for me provide a brand new context into how brilliant these philosophers were. You know, we use the term philosophers, the Greek philosophers. We say it so flippantly. I don't think we can comprehend how smart these people really were. It's really difficult for us to comprehend that.

[A]

I don't know how he did this. It's. It boggles my mind. And the more I reread and reread, it's like I keep finding more things and I'm like. It just becomes obvious. It's like once you have that key, it starts to become so obvious. And, you know, I'm not the person. Like, people are historical, they want to find the island and then people are okay. This is a political allegory of moral, you know, And I say, that's fantastic, beautiful. I'm not discounting either side. I'm saying, let's go deeper. Why did the priest tell Solon that Phaethon stole his father's chariot and burnt the earth, causing a catastrophe by fire, and that the world goes through these periodic cataclysms by water and fire. Why did he tell this to Solon before he told the Atlantis story? But then before he says the Atlantis story, the priest also says, you know, this story has a form of a myth, but what it really means is the declination of the stars of the heavens over long periods of time. So he's basically telling you, right before he tells you the story of Atlantis that this is a myth. And what it really tells you is, is that it's a story of the moving heavens. He says it right before he tells the story of Atlantis. And the story of Phaethon is the destruction of the world by fire. The exact same theme is in the Atlantis story, but it's with water. And that's exactly what he said. There's periods of destruction with fire and water. And then now he tells the story of Atlantis. So people, they hear the story of Atlantis, they want, they.

[B]

We want the national treasure.

[A]

They want to find it. But I'll just say like as well. He says it's right outside the pillars of Hercules, which we know exactly that location on Earth. Okay? So he's given us the exact direction where it is. He's given us the size of it. He says it's larger than Libya and Asia combined. Now, if you put those two places together, you're talking about a continent roughly the size of North America. You're talking about a big place. And if that went into the ocean 11,000 years ago, give or take, there's going to be evidence of that. You're going to see it, but we don't. It's completely not in that location unless NASA and everybody's lying to us, which, again, that's a possibility.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

So everybody will look at this or look at the story of Atlantis and say he. They said exactly that there is an island. This is true. It's right here. This is the size. But look at the entire story, you know, because if this is true and

[B]

the why, I think that's important too. Like, why would, why would Plato, like, shroud this story as, as a sort of map to lead you to like, a lost civilization? That doesn't seem like something Plato would do or these philosophers would do. They wouldn't send you on a treasure hunt. You know, it seems like something Hollywood would do or like, you know, like a national treasure movie. I would love to see It. But in terms of philosophers, those guys were imparting knowledge like math and science and astronomy and that type of thing.

[A]

The thing is, it's the same thing with the Republic, where they're trying to find the ideal society, and it's almost like it doesn't matter what they choose, it falls apart. It's the same thing with life, it's the same thing with philosophy. It's the same thing with these cycles. And this is why the priest told Solon, it's about these cycles of the stars, the cycles of the heaven, over long periods of time, because there is this destruction that will periodically happen. Every civilization will come to its fall, but then there's this time of recalibration, and then there's this time where the society rises again and it's like a new world and it matches these cycles. So this whole thing about hubris and arrogance, and in my personal opinion, this hubris and arrogance is not about the ideal state. It's the ideal state of consciousness, as in, you know, don't run around like a chicken with your head cut off because the world is ending. Understand that these are natural cycles that will happen again and again and again. And if you understand this, you're going to be strong and you could lead.

[B]

It's a lot to contemplate, you know, and we're finding out now, thousands of years later, that, oh, there are cycles and, oh, we're kind of at the end of one right now. And, like, it feels like it might happen again. So it is timely that, you know, you sort of rediscovered this through a new lens. Has that. Has the work that you've put into this, has that ever been done before? Has anyone ever taken that approach to it?

[A]

Yes. Proclus, which is 5th century AD, he is a Neoplatonist, and he looked at the Atlantis story and he wrote a huge book. I think it's about two to 300 pages, if not more, saying that the story of Atlantis is actually a celestial allegory of the cycles and the demiurge and the creation, you know, and it's amazing, but this type of view maps it to the stars as well. So it builds off of that so that everything that we're told could actually be seen in the sky. And it goes into this kind of area that a lot of people don't look into. It's called astro theology. And astro theology is kind of like taking a myth and putting celestial observations of cycles and seasons into the myths and the gods. And so you carry that through, but it's valuable information into it. So it's like, you'll see, let's say the God Shemesh, for example, from the Akkadian myths, the God Shemesh is the sun God. And when you see the sun God depicted in some of these tablets, he'll be holding, let's say, a knife, and he'll have, like, heat rays coming off his shoulder because he's the sun. And then he might be standing next to Ishtar. And Ishtar, like the virgin, she's holding the barley in her hand, and he's grabbing her by the foot with the knife, and he has the heat. So what is like, you're looking at gods here, but really it's kind of like the cycle saying. It's like the sun is now, it's the hot time of the year, and he's cutting down, he's harvesting the wheat, you know, and these are the stars that are in the heavens. When this. You have to do this. So there's a celestial knowledge wrapped into the stories, even though we're not aware of those keys.

[B]

Yeah. It's not just fairy tales. That is their way of talking about science. That's how they did it. They did it through story, through fable and through tales.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Very interesting. Jason, I'm going to go start the camera back here. And we got some questions from the audience.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

All right, we got a few questions here. Our audience always asks the best questions, and if you want a chance to ask them as well, you can become a member. First question here from Guy says, does government disclosure even matter if the real contact happens in the astral?

[A]

It will matter to some people.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because there are people that are waiting for this disclosure to happen and to appease whatever they need. But again, I think that the government does need to come clean. They do need to release something. They need to give something to the public because the public knows that there's something off. And, you know, being in this community for so long, you meet so many people, people that claim to be whistleblowers or insiders or contactees or abductees, and there's definitely something going on. I don't think we'll ever get the answer that we actually want. We will just get a story of something to appease the minds of a lot of people, but a lot of people will never be happy with those answers. But will it matter if it's in the astral? Not really, because you're dealing with a whole other beast.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I tend to agree. I Think. I think a lot of. And this is something I get a lot of pushback on when I talk about, but I do think that to some extent, answers are inconsequential. I think they only thing answers provide is the ability to ask a new question. And I think the new question is more valuable. And so to be able to ask new questions, that's what we're really after. And to do that, we have to get an old answer out of the way. But I don't know. I also, I also think that, you know, let's say if the question is, are we alone? Right. If that is the question, if the answer to that is that we're given is yes, we're alone, I'm not happy with that answer. I'm going to keep asking the question until that answer becomes no. Right.

[A]

That answer is scarier than anything they can give us.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's the worst answer.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. But if that is the answer, it's not going to satisfy anyone. And we will keep looking until the answer is no. Correct. So why don't we just assume it's no and move on?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Well, they want the bodies, they want the craft.

[B]

And yeah, but only I do believe this. And again, I'll probably get pushback for that. But I do think it is only to satisfy a selfish need that we think will fill a void, which it will not. You get an answer, you're not going to retire and be like, well, there we go, I can die now. Of course not. You're going to have another question. And guess what? That question will feel more important than the other one.

[A]

Yeah, it reminds me of like, kind of like the old MUFON type of nuts and bolts stuff where it's like they're just interested in the craft. They need to know that technology. They want to know what powers it. Because if they can get their hands on that power system, we can change the world for the better. And I think it was actually Grant Cameron that said this. I don't know where he got it from, but he was basically saying that what happens if we give the world free energy today? You think we're going to be better off? No, we're just going to take more from the Earth faster because now we don't have to pay energy costs, and energy costs is the only thing that's stopping us from taking more.

[B]

Yeah, it's well put. Wow, I never thought of that. All right,

[A]

I'm not giving up.

[B]

I am selling the building.

[A]

The final season of FX is the Bear.

[B]

The Restaurant is flooded.

[A]

Everything's either gonna be okay. Nope.

[B]

Stop. Or not.

[A]

We are outgunned and we are outmanned.

[B]

But we have each other.

[A]

FX's the Bear the final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+.

[B]

From JK Part which ancient technology best supports interaction with consciousness or the body's EM field? And why?

[A]

Oh, wow. You know, at first I was just gonna say churches, like the building, the architecture from the masons. They knew how to build in harmony with very specific numbers and creating spaces that put you into contact in altered states of consciousness. Just being in the building itself.

[B]

The resonance too.

[A]

Just the resonance. So there is like an art of architecture that you can build the structures of creation or the vibrations and the sacred numbers and sacred geometry of creation directly into the structure that will resonate with you on a level that you're not aware of. Of. So I would say that churches.

[B]

Wow, that's a good answer.

[A]

They're pretty powerful.

[B]

How they enhance prayer as well and

[A]

song, because remember again, going back to music, reverberation, you create the space and as the sound reverberates around the walls, you're creating sacred geometry structures of sound within it.

[B]

Yeah. And that is an exact science as well. And you know, I know a lot of people refer to the king's tomb in the pyramids as well, is like if you. The king's chamber rather. And if you lay in that box and you start humming, it'll just like. It'll almost induce an out of body state, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I would think that's very, very powerful. And the pyramid itself, if you look at the geometry and the cubits and how it's built with the chambers, you get these low frequency oscillations going through those chambers with the granite and the limestone, you are creating an electrical resonance field. And the shape of the pyramid itself is a reflection of sacred geometry. Basically, it's the symbol of creation itself. So, you know, that's an extremely powerful thing. But I thought that would be the number one answer everybody would expect.

[B]

I think so, yeah. Because, yeah, I mean, pyramids, triangles and all that stuff. But church is a good one. And something I found out when I traveled to England recently was in order to be a city, you would have to have a cathedral. I didn't know that. So that's why all these like townships and they all have like, the cities all have a cathedral. Like you wouldn't be considered a city if you didn't have one.

[A]

So I don't know. You know, I think this is a John Mitchell book where he talks about the sacred center and these building structures of cities and towns is that you would find the center where it's like the most powerful place energetically, like through ley line.

[B]

Oh, like a ley line thing.

[A]

And what you do is that you would find that space which is like the life giving space, then you would put your, build your cathedral and then you'd build the city around it.

[B]

But that would be before our modern interpretation of what ley lines are. So it would have to. How do they measure that in that case? They would just feel it out.

[A]

I, you know, I. Well, there's like dowsers, people that are sensitive.

[B]

Yeah. Witching rods and whatnot.

[A]

Yeah. And there's also physical signs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like when you're looking at areas, it's almost like a sweetness in the air. There's water flowing, there's plants, abundance of life.

[B]

Right, I see.

[A]

It's like when you, when you see an area that is just teeming with life, then you're like, this is, this is a good spot.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And then kill it. Wipe it out. Put it.

[B]

Yeah, let's build something. All right, we got one last one here from Slug, believe that is his real name. Great question, Slug. Of everything in Forbidden Knowledge, what did you hesitate most to include and why did it make the cut?

[A]

Oh my God. First of all, Forbidden Knowledge, that's the first book that I wrote with Bob Mitchell. And I didn't know at the time that people would even read that book. Okay. I thought, and the problem with it being the first book and you know, someone's interviewing you is there's no filters whatsoever. So in that book it's like there's names of like my teachers, names of my friends, names of my family. Like, it's just the whole book is an overshare and the. So after people started reading it, I was like, oh my God, no. So I had, I had to. And then also within the first couple of months of that book being out, Bob Mitchell also passed away. So we also had to deal with. Okay, now what do we do with this partnership and all these things? And what ended up happening was we worked with the family and we took the book away. And then I wrote Astral Experiences, which is a little more focused and not oversharing. But you have to remember also Bob Mitchell was the guy who was the journalist who loved taking down experiencers stories and alien abduction. So he was heavily involved in UFO mythology. So in Forbidden Knowledge, it's a mix between my personal experiences, which I didn't hold back at all in that book, that was just nuts experiences. And then he would parallel it to other experiencers in the UFO scene. So it has a very heavy UFO weight to that book. Whereas the new book, it's more just about the experiences.

[B]

Was there ever an experience that you had that was just too crazy to share?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What's one example other than the being a giant amoeba?

[A]

Hybrid children.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hybrid children that you were shown? Yes, hybrid children. Hold on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. That stuff, I, I, I am cautious

[B]

about sharing because that is, you know, ever since I think Debbie Jordan, Deborah Jordan was like one of the first ones, you know, the Encounters book that Bud Hopkins covered. Bud Hopkins covered was one of the first times I think it was talked about this idea that they were presented with their hybrid children. And I've spoken, you know, I've sat across from many a experiencer who's told me about these same things that happened in the Astral.

[A]

Is this on YouTube, this part?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we can caveat it, we can put a big disclaimer here and say, we don't know what this is,

[A]

but, well, it's like, because you don't hear these things happening to men.

[B]

I have, yes. Peter Curry, he broke down in tears with what he was shown. I also have spoken to three other male experiencers off camera about this exact thing, and they are known experiencers.

[A]

Okay. Okay. So, you know, I think we've talked about enough crazy things. Sure, I'll share this, but just know this is an exclusive.

[B]

Understood.

[A]

Okay. So basically I was taken. And it was like I was in this nursery, hospital type of thing, and this, this, like, this nurse walks out and it's like, I, I want you to meet your child. And this was like in my early 20s. Like, I don't have any children. I'm not with anybody.

[B]

A human nurse, it's like a human

[A]

nurse and they, they have this child, they want to show it, be my child, and they show it to me. And it's like, it's like, it's like a half human, half, like, like it really looked like a half alien baby.

[B]

And did it have a little bit of hair?

[A]

It did have a little hair. And I was so angry. Like, I have this streak of anger in me, like with all these other experiences, but I, I was, I felt so taken advantage of. I felt so angry that this happened that I, I felt this, like, instant hate, like, and I just, like in my mind, I just like, went to the child. I'm like, I want you to die. Like, that's the first thought that came to me. It's like, I hate you, I want you to die. Like, this is awful. And it's like the, the child just kind of went limp in the hands. And then it's like I'm back, right? And I'm like. And I wake up and I have all this regret and I'm like, why did I do that? Because it's more like in. When you're in these out of body states, there's no like filter.

[B]

It's impulse.

[A]

It's so impulse. And that's what I really felt at that moment. Like, how can you do this? And so I had a lot of guilt. But then like a couple years later I was taken back and I'm back in the same place and they go, I want you to see your son again. It was a son and he's told me his name and I saw him like walking. It's just a little guy, didn't look like an alien at all. Now he looked like a human and came up and I gave him a big hug and it was like this kind of reunion and it was like very beautiful. Said I was sorry for what I did the first time and that was it. Very emotional because like, I have no idea what this really is.

[B]

What was his name, if you don't mind me asking?

[A]

Michael.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

that's. Yeah, that's so wild. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. I know it's not easy because it sounds completely insane and. Yeah, absolutely. But at the same time I think it's important. And I told this to Peter Curry when he was here as well and he had some wild experiences, one of which was, that was. And he was actually told prior to the meeting, he goes, we're hesitant to show you this child because how you might react to what it looks like physically and because this child is excelling and doing really well at school and what they're doing. He's also very highly telepathic and so he'll pick up on anything that you think. And so we're going to help you sort of navigate that interaction and like screen your mind type deal. But he, you know, that was the same sort of reaction he had at first, like, whoa, what the hell is this? And then that. How dare you do this to me?

[A]

Yeah, so it's like the same thing I just said.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. And I like, I said I would share the other stories, but these are, you know, off, off the record. Well, not even off the record, there's like off camera conversations I've had that say the exact same story that they were shown from other. This was from other grays and it was like football head, sort of half child, half or it was all child, but half human, half gray. A little tuft of hair, brown hair. And then the eyes were big eyes, but they weren't completely black. Like they had big pupils and you know, big irises and then a small nose, little tiny ears. Like there was a sort of. In between.

[A]

Yeah, that's what it was like, clearly.

[B]

Hybrid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when it was, when he was older, he couldn't tell.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. David Jacobs obviously would look into this a lot and he had a whole sort of evolution going from. He had five stages. Stage 1, Hybrid, 2, 3, 4, 5. And the five he would call the hubrid, which was indistinguishable. But as it would go on, you would see the change get more and more human.

[A]

Yeah, I, I've been, I've heard one thing from this that could be interesting for the people watching is what I heard was that this hybrid program, you know, a lot of people look at it very, very negatively, but they, they, some of it is what I've been told is that these hybrids, they're made for other planets. So it's like a different environment that you can't survive in. So they need to kind of mix so that you could live here. So it's almost like seeding other worlds.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, there's, I mean there's no shortage of theories.

[A]

That's a theory that I want to believe.

[B]

I want to believe that too. There is one theory that is essentially that I thought was really cool that I read, doing one of these read throughs, which was there is a defense system around the Earth, the spheres. You know, Patrick Jackson talks about it, but like there's like these, like this white blood cell sort of defense system that operates, you know, using maybe advanced AI or something like that, that prevents other beings from coming here, that escorts them off planet, that zaps them if they get too close type deal. And so to be able to live here, you would have to change your DNA over time. And so you go undetected on this system, which I thought was pretty cool for as far as a sci fi book goes. I mean, it'd be a great story. All right, I think we'll wrap it up there. Jason, thank you so much for sharing all that. Thank you for your insights into the out of body experience, into Plato and Neoplatonism and let people know where they can find your books and where they can follow you.

[A]

The easiest place to get my books is Amazon and just look it up. My new book about Atlantis is called the Shining Island. I have a book called Astral Gates of the Anunnaki and Astral Genesis. That's kind of like my evolution. Also Qigong. I have Egyptian Postures of Power book as well, so I have a number of books on Amazon. You could find me on my website thecrystalsun.com and that has lots of crystals. Like I said, I work with Orelite 23 up in Thunder Bay, Ontario here, so I love sharing that type of stuff with people.

[B]

Wonderful. I'll leave all those links below. Thank you so much Jason for joining me today.

[A]

Thank you. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail].

[B]

switch upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.