Armchair Anonymous: Stalking II

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard Episode: Armchair Anonymous: Stalking II Release Date: June 6, 2025

In this gripping episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, titled Armchair Anonymous: Stalking II, host Dax Shepard delves deep into the unsettling world of stalking through personal stories shared by guests Lindy, Nick, and Brittany. The episode navigates the complexities of harassment, the psychological impact on victims, and the challenges faced in seeking justice.

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1. Introduction to Armchair Anonymous

Dax Shepard introduces the segment "Armchair Anonymous," a space where individuals share their personal experiences with stalking. Joined by Monica Padman, Dax sets the stage for an honest and vulnerable exploration of these distressing encounters.

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2. Lindy's Encounter with Joe Smith

Timestamp: [03:06]

Lindy recounts her harrowing experience with a neighbor, Joe Smith. Initially dismissing the strange Facebook friend requests with inappropriate profile pictures as spam, Lindy's concerns escalate when her family learns that Joe Smith is a known neighbor involved in similar harassment.

• Key Events:

  • Friend Requests: Lindy received unsettling friend requests from a profile named "Joe Smith" featuring a genital image, which she later recognized as her neighbor.
  • Escalation: Joe's harassment extended beyond Lindy to her mother and sister, leading to increased community scrutiny and police involvement.
  • Police Intervention: Despite multiple reports, Joe managed to evade long-term detention, resulting in ongoing harassment and eventual arrest after attempting to harass his parole officer.

• Notable Quotes:

  • Lindy: “He somehow had her phone number and he starts sending her these pictures, screenshots of porn’s...” ([05:26])
  • Dax Shepard: “What do you do with someone like this? Like he's so unhinged...” ([09:45])

• Conclusion of Lindy's Story: Joe Smith’s pattern of behavior culminated in arrests for various offenses, including cyberstalking and indecent exposure. Lindy highlights the difficulties in obtaining sufficient evidence and the limitations of the legal system in handling such pervasive harassment.

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3. Nick's Story: From Friend to Obsession

Timestamp: [29:25]

Nick, who reveals himself as a police detective specializing in harassment and abuse cases, shares his personal ordeal with Amy—a participant in a university program who became obsessively attached to him.

• Key Events:

  • Initial Interaction: Nick met Amy through a university program aimed at assisting individuals experiencing homelessness.
  • Developing Obsession: Amy's behavior became increasingly controlling, isolating Nick from other participants and demanding his constant attention.
  • Relocation and Escalation: As Nick’s family moved to Florida and he prepared to leave for England, Amy's obsession intensified, leading to unrelenting harassment even after his departure.
  • Legal and Emotional Fallout: Despite multiple reports to the police, Amy's actions continued until Nick eventually severed ties by deleting her online presence and receiving minimal legal recourse.

• Notable Quotes:

  • Nick: “I just want her to find the next guy she’s gonna get crazy about...” ([28:29])
  • Dax Shepard: “...the decision you're making is, I'll do it today or I'm going to do it sometime in the future and incur way more stuff.” ([28:40])

• Expert Insight: Towards the end of his narrative, Nick emphasizes the importance of speaking one’s truth and setting firm boundaries, underscoring the long-term psychological benefits of confronting such situations rather than avoiding them.

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4. Brittany's Harrowing Experience with a Rideshare Driver

Timestamp: [37:34]

Brittany shares her unsettling encounter with Bill, a rideshare driver whose increasingly aggressive and invasive behavior led to a terrifying ordeal.

• Key Events:

  • Initial Contact: After a seemingly normal ride, Bill begins sending Brittany unsolicited and inappropriate messages.
  • Escalation: When Brittany attempts to set boundaries, Bill's demeanor turns hostile, culminating in threats to come to her office.
  • Confrontation: Despite multiple warnings and involvement of law enforcement, Bill's harassment persists, leading Brittany to take drastic measures like blocking him and seeking further legal protection.
  • Long-term Impact: The incident left Brittany and her family in a state of heightened alertness and fear, highlighting the challenges in stopping persistent online harassment.

• Notable Quotes:

  • Brittany: “He is so sick, so I've never heard from her since.” ([28:15])
  • Dax Shepard: “We are supported by Apple TV plus presenting the hit limited series Presumed Innocent...” ([17:57]) (Note: This appears to be an advertisement and is not included in the summary)

• Additional Insights: Brittany discusses the limitations faced when reporting such incidents, including the lack of immediate actionable responses from rideshare companies and law enforcement.

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5. Expert Commentary and Reflections

Timestamp: [29:15]

Nick returns to offer professional insights into the stories shared, emphasizing the prevalence of stalking and the importance of addressing mental health issues underlying such behavior.

• Key Points:

  • Mental Health: Recognizing the role of mental health and past trauma in stalking behavior.
  • Legal Limitations: Addressing the constraints of the legal system in providing immediate protection.
  • Personal Healing: Encouraging victims to speak their truth as a path to healing and reclaiming their identities.

• Notable Quotes:

  • Nick: “One in six boys at some point in their childhood will experience sexual abuse...” ([30:15])
  • Dax Shepard: “Did you hear the Tyler Perry episode? For anyone that's struggling, his willingness and openness is really incredible.” ([30:28])

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6. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Dax and Monica wrap up the episode by acknowledging the resilience of the guests and the importance of community support in overcoming such traumatic experiences. The episode serves as a powerful reminder of the pervasive nature of stalking and the need for systemic changes to better protect and support victims.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• Lindy: "He somehow had her phone number and he starts sending her these pictures, screenshots of porn’s..." ([05:26])
• Dax Shepard: “What do you do with someone like this?...” ([09:45])
• Nick: “I just want her to find the next guy she’s gonna get crazy about...” ([28:29])
• Dax Shepard: “…the decision you're making is, I'll do it today or I'm going to do it sometime in the future and incur way more stuff.” ([28:40])
• Brittany: “He is so sick, so I've never heard from her since.” ([28:15])

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This episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard offers a raw and unfiltered look into the lives of those affected by stalking, shedding light on the emotional and psychological toll it takes. Through heartfelt narratives and expert analysis, Dax and his guests encourage listeners to foster empathy, advocate for better support systems, and prioritize mental health in addressing such pervasive issues.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Stalker Part 2.

[Monica Padman]

Scary.

[Dax Shepard]

Scary. They are scary, but these were not as scary.

[Monica Padman]

It's always pretty. It's always pretty scary, but you can listen.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And there was a guy we liked having.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, we do like that. I mean, it was still scary.

[Dax Shepard]

It was still scary. It's a different version of scary, but it's scary.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And you know what? It's perfect timing because I'm watching you. We didn't even plan this. The universe, the sim storm.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's got a sense of humor.

[Monica Padman]

It really does.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Please Enjoy Stalker Part 2.

[Monica Padman]

Get into your body's vitals with the Vitals app on Apple Watch. The Vitals app tracks key overnight metrics so you can spot changes in your health before you feel them. The Vitals app on Apple Watch iPhone Xs are later required. The Vitals app is for wellness purposes only and not for medical use.

[Dax Shepard]

We are supported by Domino's. You'd be hard pressed to find two people that love Domino's more than you and I. It's an integral part of our friendship.

[Monica Padman]

When we were just baby friends, we.

[Dax Shepard]

Discovered we both love Domino's and we ordered it with reckless abandon. If you haven't tried Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust pizza yet, what are you waiting for? With a buttery flavored crust, melty cheese, and real Parmesan sprinkled on top, every bite is absolutely packed with flavor. Order one today at Domino's.com come and go. Good times, take them slow. My life, I had them both. You got to know I'mma keep on shining. Hello. Hello. You're my first Lindy.

[Lindy]

Yes. It's a very unique name.

[Dax Shepard]

Am I your first axe?

[Lindy]

Yes. Not my first Monica.

[Dax Shepard]

Not my first Monica. Sounds like. Not my first barbecue.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. Or rodeo.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Not my first rodeo. Not my first barbecue.

[Lindy]

Ooh, this is my first armchair Anonymous interview.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Have you ever called a radio station or anything?

[Lindy]

No, I've never. And this was my first story I submitted.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. It's good conversion odds. Okay, so you have a stalking story.

[Lindy]

I do have a stalking story. Also, before we get started, I'm just gonna mention my mom Jennifer and my sister Erica. There are also armchairs with me and they feature in this story. And my mom wanted to say to you, Dax, that she's just very grateful for you always being honest in your recovery and sobriety. She's nine years sober as of this year.

[Dax Shepard]

Fuck, yeah.

[Lindy]

And my sister, she's two years younger than me. She wanted me to say that she's regularly in the top 1% of listeners. She's a badass horse rider, works on a farm, and she's always listening to you guys.

[Dax Shepard]

Does she have powerful legs?

[Lindy]

Yes, she does. CrossFit. I mean, there's nothing she can't do.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. Cool.

[Lindy]

She's the athletic one. So the story does take place in Washington, but western Washington, about 45 minutes south of Tacoma. It was my senior year of high school about 10 years ago. I had just turned 18 in December. And Monica, my junior year, our cheer team won state. I was on the cheerleading squad.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dax Shepard]

And you don't describe yourself as the athletic one. That feels definitely not compared to her.

[Lindy]

I love a good dance routine, but put me in any other kind of coordinated situation. It's not my jam.

[Monica Padman]

Did you guys do stunts and stuff?

[Lindy]

We did do stunts. We were not a tumbling squad, but we did stunts and had a great routine.

[Monica Padman]

Nice. Congrats.

[Lindy]

Yeah, that was exciting. So a lot of stuff was going on. That spring, I started receiving strange friend requests on Facebook, and I didn't recognize the name. It said Joe Smith, but the profile picture was a picture of a penis.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, that's not a great way to make friends. Or maybe it's a great way to make the kind of friends you want. I don't know.

[Lindy]

To be more specific, the penis was a micro penis.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, boy.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. Okay.

[Lindy]

I've never seen anything like that.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to see really bad now. Of course.

[Lindy]

Then check my messenger app on Facebook. And I had message requests from this profile, most of them saying things like hey or hi. I think one of them said something kind of creepy, like, do you like what you see? Referencing the picture? But I just deleted these. I honestly thought it was spam or someone messing with me. It's. I didn't think it would be anything crazy. So a few months go by, and a family friend calls my mom and says, hey, I've been getting friend requests from this person, Joe Smith, on Facebook. His profile's normal. I asked how he knows me, and he said, he knows you, Jennifer. I overhear this, and I say, oh, I know that name. That's Joe Smith. This profile with this penis picture, her jaw dropped, and she says, that's Joe Smith, our neighbor. So I didn't know his name.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. How old was the neighbor?

[Lindy]

He was probably in his 30s, lived with his mom. And we didn't interact with him a lot, but I knew his first name, but I didn't know his last name. So we contacted the police, but I didn't have any evidence. I deleted the friend requests, I deleted the messages. And I was over 18. I think if I was a minor, it would have been a bigger deal. And they also mentioned if I had asked him to stop and then he continued, that would have been something else. But I had never kind of said stop.

[Dax Shepard]

The victim's never doing it correctly in the exact.

[Lindy]

This is the common thread.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It was like, I'm sorry, you didn't do it. Correct. You weren't a correct victim.

[Lindy]

Then he turns his attention towards my mom. He somehow had her phone number and he starts sending her these pictures, screenshots of porno's. One time he sent the penis picture, but with a mini Bic lighter held up next to it to compare the size.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Lindy]

I did look it up. So that's 2 inches is the size we're working with. She also contacts the police. She was going to get a restraining order at one point, but it would have cost her money. We had gone over to the home. Well, my parents did, my mom and my stepdad. And he didn't answer the door, but they knocked and let him know very loudly that if anything were to happen again, we're going to have some more issues. So she ended up changing her phone number. Because of that, a bit of time goes by. I'm away at college now, so a lot of this is from my mom and my sister. A couple things to note. We lived on a private driveway, so there were only three houses. It was our house, Joe's house, and then our third neighbor's house. Now living at home is my mom, stepdad, my sister, and my brother Kyle. So we're not having any issues with Joe directly, but it's clear that other people in the community are. Because cars start coming down the driveway, showing up at his house, knocking on his door. They start knocking on our door, saying, hey, they're always men. Joe's been messaging my wife, my girlfriend, my sister. There's three or four instances of different men coming, telling us this, do you know anything about him? And we just let him know, hey, we're working with the police, building a case. He's done this to us. At one point, someone comes back in the night and smashes his car. With a baseball bat. While this is going on, my sister Erica turns 18. So she starts receiving the Facebook friend request messages and she is very freaked out and she's very avoidant, so she is just deleting them and doesn't really want to deal with this anymore. At one point, my stepdad's outside, our other neighbor is looking out her window and she sees Erica getting out of her car and Joe standing in the driveway with his pants down, touching himself.

[Hannah]

Oh my God.

[Lindy]

Things are escalating past just cyber harassment.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know that this is appropriate question, but do we know it's his penis in these photos or is he getting a penis from the Internet?

[Lindy]

We're assuming it's his penis. We don't know for sure. That's a follow up question I'll have to ask. So he's arrested for some of these various crimes within the community. He's released within less than a year, just a few months. And they assign him a female parole officer. What does he start doing? Harassing his female parole officer.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my.

[Lindy]

Begins sending her vulgar messages, showing up, calling her. Now he's got multiple warrants out for his arrest. At one point, the U.S. marshals show up at our house. They're asking where he is, and supposedly he's staying maybe in shelters in Tacoma. Few months later, the sheriffs show back up. They're looking around, knocking on the door, trying to find him. And at one point there's some shouting. My family's outside watching all of this and they're dragging him out from under the house. He'd been hiding under the house. We're not sure why.

[Dax Shepard]

In the crawl space.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Lindy]

And so they had dragged him out from under the house and arrested him. And that's kind of where the story ends for us. I sent in a news article to Emma about Joe, and I was looking at this article of his. There's a photo included. In 2018, he was convicted of indecent exposure and cyberstalking one of his former teachers. A year after that, he was convicted of indecent exposure on a bus after offering a woman chocolate and then showing his penis. As of 2021, he was arrested and being held without bail for a couple of things. Unlawful possession of a personal identification device, which I gu is something you use to make fake IDs with obstructing police and failing to register as a sex offender.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you do with someone like this? Like he's so unhinged, he's just blasting everyone he sees clearly. All Day long he's doing this. Can you throw someone in prison forever? I was thinking a good invention would be a pill. Once they could isolate whatever chemical creates the horniness. If there was like, a blocker, there's.

[Monica Padman]

Probably a testosterone blocker.

[Lindy]

Doesn't chemical castration exist? Didn't they do that to, like, some people? Not for the right reasons. This was about homosexuality, but that's the instances I've heard it being used.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, right.

[Dax Shepard]

Was that to make them infertile or not horny?

[Lindy]

I'm not sure. Oh, I know. Another side note, One night I was Googling myself or my family, just as you do when you're a teenager. And I found this forum where Joe had written about my mom and, like, watching her getting out of her car at work and just posting some creepy things about watching her. And so just a lot of creepiness happening next door.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, that is rough. I hope he's in jail. I do want him to be in jail. That has to be the answer.

[Dax Shepard]

Another question, also delicate. Has anyone talked to him? Like, is he mentally.

[Lindy]

I believe there's mental issues there and some kind of maybe drug use and probably a traumatic home life. We're not really sure, but there's a lot of things going on.

[Dax Shepard]

And then the micro penis.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, I was wondering the same thing. Is that his or is that just kind of a weird obsession?

[Lindy]

And we'd have to ask him.

[Monica Padman]

I think I'm good. I think I'm probably not gonna ask him.

[Dax Shepard]

I would love to talk to him, actually.

[Lindy]

I wrote down this little bingo card of what would happen during the interview. And one of the things I put down was that Dax would have compassion for or want to follow up with Joe.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, the reason I have compassion is I just always imagine, what if that was my life? What a disaster over there.

[Monica Padman]

I have compassion.

[Lindy]

I can too. He's consumed his whole life and ruined it.

[Dax Shepard]

What was the other bingo cards? I wanna know the other bingos.

[Lindy]

All right, let me see. What should I write? That? Armchair bingo. I have a technical issue. Dax brings up Big Brown if I mention the Pacific Northwest.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that was a good guess.

[Lindy]

Dax tries to guess where I live.

[Dax Shepard]

These are great guesses. Like, you never know where I'm at with my annoying of Monica. So, like, that's hard to know. Is it the first one? And I haven't already asked a bunch of geography questions.

[Lindy]

Right. Rob makes an appearance. Not yet. Monica makes a gasp type noise like.

[Monica Padman]

A. I'm sure that happened.

[Dax Shepard]

Rob, please make a bingo.

[Nick]

I'm here Hi, Rob.

[Lindy]

And then I wrote down, I get emotional, but I haven't said my thank you yet, so that could happen soon.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I want to hear your thank you, and let's see if we can get another bingo.

[Lindy]

I did just want to say thank you guys so much for everything you do. I'm a teacher, and you've taught me so much about empathy and compassion and just communicating in relationships. And you just made me so curious about the world again. About eight months ago, I had a baby. My first baby.

[Dax Shepard]

Congratulations.

[Lindy]

Our baby girl, Daphne. She is amazing. But those first few weeks are kind of rough. But. But I always knew I could listen to you guys and just feel like myself again. So thank you for always being there for me. And you're my favorite parasocial relationship, so thank you.

[Monica Padman]

We love that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Lindy, this was delightful. Thank you so much.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you for being a teacher.

[Lindy]

The best year, middle school, seventh grade.

[Monica Padman]

We love it. We love it.

[Lindy]

It's Teacher Appreciation Week right now, first week of May. So shout out all the teachers.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Monica Padman]

We need to remember that for next year. Armchair Anonymous.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we should do teacher prompt.

[Lindy]

Teacher prompts. Or more teacher experts on anything like that.

[Hannah]

We would love.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a great idea. Well, thank you, Lindy. So nice meeting you.

[Monica Padman]

Nice to meet you.

[Lindy]

Have a great rest of your day. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Bye.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Nick]

Hi, there. This is happening, huh?

[Monica Padman]

It's happening.

[Dax Shepard]

It's really happening. Do you have a preferred fake name?

[Nick]

Can I go by Nick?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I love Nick. Very solid name.

[Monica Padman]

You could pass for Nick.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, let me ask you this. Do you have a friend that you think is really cool that's named Nick?

[Nick]

It's related to my wife's name, so it's a little homage to her.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a nod. It's a wink.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. It could have been short for Nickelodeon.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Because I would have said if I was in the situation. Yeah, I would probably go like Justin, Trevor. Names I associate with being cool.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

What would you do, Monica? Names you associate with being nerdy.

[Monica Padman]

How dare you?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you're laughing that I would want a cool name.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think I would put that much thought in it.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, Mandy. Okay, Nick, sorry we took up a lot of your time. Are you allowed to tell us where you're at?

[Nick]

Yes. So I am in beautiful Seattle, Washington.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. Ding, ding, ding. We just got off the phone with someone whose story took place just south of Tacoma.

[Monica Padman]

It's not speaking. Well, the Pac Northwest Seattle.

[Nick]

I actually live just south of Tacoma.

[Dax Shepard]

What if he goes, My name's Joe Smith and I use pictures.

[Nick]

Oh, my gosh.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

None of the stalkers have called in.

[Dax Shepard]

You're right. It's always people who've been stalked. We've never had a stalker call.

[Nick]

That'd be a change.

[Dax Shepard]

It sure would. I don't know how I'd handle that, but I'd like to try.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, I want to hear it now.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, me too, Nick.

[Nick]

Okay, so this starts almost 21 years ago. So 2004. I graduated high school two years early. My family and I, we lived in Washington, D.C. at the time, I was 17. And I don't want to commit to a college just yet, so I was looking for something interesting to do. And the University of Washington in Seattle had a program that worked with people experiencing homelessness. It was like a work study where you lived in the university district, you shared a house with other people in the program, and you would get college credit at the end of it as a one year program. This sounds great. I wanted to get it as far away from my family as possible.

[Dax Shepard]

So great.

[Nick]

I get out there. I'm obviously the youngest because I'm 17. Everybody's sort of like 19 to 21. Except this woman that's part of the program. She was 26. Her name was Amy. Obviously it's a fake name, but Amy sort of takes a liking to me. I'm like, oh, this is great. She wanted to hang out with me.

[Dax Shepard]

She can buy beer.

[Nick]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Nick]

Everything was working in my favorite. But as time went on, I could say now I could see what the pattern was. But she started isolating me from the other people. She would get mad if I hung out with another housemate. If I was going to grab something out to eat, she'd want to meet me there. She'd call me if I wasn't back at a certain time. I just was like, oh, maybe that's just part of having a friend that's a little bit older.

[Dax Shepard]

We are supported by Domino's. You know I have the app.

[Monica Padman]

Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not talked about in this ad spot, but I do gotta give a shout out to the lava cakes.

[Monica Padman]

Mm.

[Dax Shepard]

They're outrageous.

[Monica Padman]

I want it right now.

[Dax Shepard]

At long last, Domino's finally, finally has stuffed crust pizza. And not just stuffed crust. Parmesan. Stuffed crust.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, man. What are you waiting for?

[Dax Shepard]

Who doesn't love a little Parmesan? Nobody, that's who. It's hard to believe it's taken them this long to make a stuffed crust pizza. But let me tell you, this was worth the wait. They've taken their buttery flavored handmade pan pizza dough and stuffed it with melty cheese. And if that wasn't enough, they topped it with garlic seasoning and yes, real Parmesan.

[Monica Padman]

I can taste it.

[Dax Shepard]

I love mine smothered with pepperoni. The more the better. Okay, all this talk about Domino's has got me hungry and I think I've got tonight's dinner plans all figured out. Order Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust pizza on the Domino's app and use code dax to get any three topping parmesan stuffed crust pizza for 11.99. That's code D on the Domino's app to try it today, price is higher in some locations. You must ask for this limited time offer. Prices, participation delivery area and charges may vary. Delivery orders subject to local stores. Delivery charge. We are supported by Apple TV plus presenting the hit limited series Presumed Innocent. Starring Jake Gyllenhaal and Ruth Nega. Hailing from David e. Kelly and J.J. abrams. Starring Gyllenhaal in the lead role of chief deputy prosecutor Rusty Savage, Presumed Innocent explores a horrific murder that upends the Chicago prosecutor prosecuting attorney's office when one of its own is suspected of the crime. The series delves into obsession, sex, politics and the power and limits of love as the accused fights to hold his family and marriage together.

[Monica Padman]

I loved this show and I started.

[Dax Shepard]

It per your recommendation. And I love it too. Critics rave about the fantastic ensemble and say Presumed Innocent is brilliant, undeniably compelling and TV at its highest quality. Now streaming on Apple TV. [e-mail] we are supported by Boar's Head. 1905 was a big year. The first ever radio broadcast hit airwaves. The first movie theater opened in Pittsburgh. Einstein published his theory of relativity and Boar's Head was founded in Brooklyn, which if you're a sandwich lover like us, is just as important. Boar's Head doesn't cut corners. Their premium deli meats and cheeses are top tier. They use premium whole cuts of beef, beef, pork and poultry. And they source spices from around the globe. Boar's Head uses the best possible ingredients in time honored recipes, preparing everything they make with care. That's how they've been able to stay in business for more than 120 years.

[Monica Padman]

I love Boar's Head. It is definitely my my meat of choice. I like the Oven Gold turkey.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, the Oven Gold turkey is outrageous. So is that Smokemaster uncured ham. Oh, I can just eat a pile.

[Monica Padman]

I want that right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Taste the tradition. Boar's head. Committed to craft since 1905. And so you're just friends at this point?

[Nick]

Just friends at this point. Other housemates start to notice and start reaching out. Hey, are you cool with her? I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, everything's fine. Fast forward. At the end of the year before I leave, Amy sits me down and she says, hey, I really, really like you. I just turned 18 and I think that we're made to be together. And I was like, oh, geez.

[Dax Shepard]

Was she attractive?

[Nick]

Yeah, nothing out of the ordinary except she was a little bit older. I told her, hey, I'm moving back to Washington D.C. i don't think it's going to work out. And so she made me promise and promise and promise that we'd be best friends.

[Monica Padman]

Was she crying?

[Nick]

She was absolutely a wreck. I fly back to D.C. and I'm getting involved in life. I work at a warehouse, 12 hour shifts. And I get a call a couple months in from Amy and she goes, oh, the best thing happened. I found a really good program at this college that's in Washington D.C. and I'm thinking about doing that program. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, I'd already moved on by that point.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Nick]

But she was like, wouldn't that be cool? I'd be like, it'd be interesting. Sure. Two weeks later, there is a knock at my parents front door and it's Amy.

[Monica Padman]

Oh no.

[Nick]

She's like, surprise. I'm here. And she grabs me and she hugs me and she starts to kiss me. And she's like, I'm so glad we're meant to be together. And I was like, whoa, freaked out.

[Dax Shepard]

18 or 19?

[Nick]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God. And your parents are just like standing.

[Nick]

There, super awkward, very non confrontational. And so she's like, hey, since I'm here now, do you think maybe we could date? I should have said no. But I was so overwhelmed by the whole thing that I was like, oh, okay. Because she was a friend and I didn't want to hurt her feelings.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, this is tricky.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Nick]

And she goes, the only thing is, I need a place to stay. There's no notice. She was just there. I asked my stepmom, hey, do you think that she can crash here for a week until she figures out her dorm? So it turns out that she wasn't in some program at the university. She enrolled in the community college nearby.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the program she discovered?

[Nick]

Yes. So basically, what would Happen is I'd work these 12 hour shifts. I would come home, and she would be sitting there waiting for me. Oh, you're here. I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad you're here. Let's go out. Let's do this, let's do that. It was very, very overwhelming, and I wasn't feeling it at all. If I tried to make plans with friends, she would sort of fly off the handle. She would cr. Cry.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I ask, are your parents checking in on any of this? Are they asking you, like, tell us about this woman who's here?

[Nick]

They did, but I was like, I'm 18. I could handle this. My dad was like, hey, she find a place yet? She wasn't working. She was going to class, like, twice a week. And so this goes on for about six months.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my Lord, Nick. Six months.

[Nick]

It was to the point where I didn't want to come home from work. I would stay late after work, and if I didn't call her on my breaks at work when I got back, she would be angry, and it would be like I was in trouble.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Nick]

Why didn't you do that? Who are you talking to? Super controlling. And I could see it now in hindsight, and I was like, wow, this was super intense. I wanted to find a way to have it, but I didn't know what to do. I started looking at colleges again, and I found a really cool university program in England.

[Dax Shepard]

Now you're on the hunt for a program to escape.

[Nick]

I'm getting out of here, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Nick]

At this time, my dad's job moves to Florida. This is my out. They're moving over the summer. I'll help them move, and then once they're moved, I'll go to England and go to the program. This is great. Clean break all around. I let her know, hey, it's not that I don't like you. You're great. But my parents are moving. I'm going to help them. I need to move on. She completely broke down so that she was going to kill herself. She couldn't be with me. She didn't want to be with anybody else. She said that one person can't decide to end a relationship. Both people have to make that decision.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, those are the rules.

[Nick]

Apparently she was from Michigan, and so her mom drove from Michigan to D.C. to pick her up. And I helped pack all of her stuff. I was like, all right, I'm sorry, but, you know, it's been great. See ya. So she leaves with mom, can I.

[Dax Shepard]

Ask you a question? You're not going to want to answer.

[Nick]

That's okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. If I were in your situation, I would want her out of there so bad. And also I would be 19 and horny. Did you hook up with her at all?

[Nick]

Yeah, that was part of why it was so hard to.

[Monica Padman]

And then you feel guilty.

[Nick]

Exactly. Time comes for parents to move. I help them move from D.C. to Jacksonville, Florida, get them set up in their house there. And it's the summer. I had like six weeks until I moved to England. I got accepted into the program. I was like, this is great. So about a week after being there, I'm moving some boxes, I'm packing stuff, and there's a ring at the doorbell. So I go and answer it, and.

[Dax Shepard]

It'S Amy in Jacksonville, Florida.

[Nick]

Yes. Address? I didn't give her. I don't even know how she knew that was the address, but she just showed up. She was so excited. Oh, my gosh, I'm so happy to see you. And she ran in and she hugged me and she tried to kiss me. And I sort of went, whoa, what's going on? And she's like, I found another college program here in Jacksonville.

[Dax Shepard]

You mean another community college? Yeah. They're everywhere. Amy.

[Nick]

She said her dad was a long haul trucker, and he had a route going from where they lived in Michigan down to South Florida. So he agreed that he would drop her off on the way down, and then he'd pick her up six days later on the way back if she decided that she didn't want to stay. And so at that point, I'd had enough. We could be friends, but this is just way too much. This is more than I can handle. She immediately threw herself on the ground, crying, writhing, like she was in pain. And then she ran in the house to the back bedroom, which just happened to be the bedroom I was staying in. Like our guest bedroom. And she locked herself in and she wouldn't come out.

[Lindy]

Oh.

[Nick]

Now I was there by myself, and I didn't know what to do. I called my dad and stepmom. I was like, hey, I have a visitor, but I don't really want him to be here. They're like, is it Amy? I was like, yes, it's Amy. They come home and now there's a negotiation. Through the door, trying to get her out of the room. It goes on for hours. She's like, I just need a good night's sleep. And then I could think clearly about this. And so my parents were like, all Right. We'll talk about this in the morning. Just go to sleep. Oh, I slept on the couch. And then in the middle of the night, I woke up to Amy on the couch on me. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we're not doing that. At this point, she runs back to the bedroom and it's about maybe 4 o' clock in the morning, my dad wakes up and he goes, hey, listen, you're gonna have to deal with this or I'm gonna deal with it. This is gonna be done either way. Do you wanna talk to her? Do I want to talk to her? So I said, you know what? I'll talk to her. So I told her, hey, let's go for a ride to the beach. We went down to the beach and I laid it all out there and she cried. And I was like, it's not going to work. She's like, all right, but can we still be friends? I was like, we can be friends if you get on a plane tomorrow back to Michigan. And she said, I agree. Okay, fine, fine. So I bought her one way ticket back to Michigan. And she goes back to Michigan. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad this is over. I didn't hear from her for another couple weeks. It's two weeks before I was moving to the uk.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Nick]

One night my phone rings. It's her number and I answer it. She's on the other end, but she's screaming, why aren't you picking up the phone? You gotta make this work relationship. It takes both people. I can't believe the way you've treated me. I'm like, what are you talking about? It turns out in that period of time that less than two weeks, she, on a whim, moved back to Seattle, moved back to where our friends were in the program and was like, he said he wanted to be with me and now he doesn't. And now he's treating me bad. And so they were all, well, let's call him and try to, to get them to work it out. They had no idea what had been going on. So now I'm on speakerphone with all my friends while she's saying all these things that I did, which I didn't do. And so I finally said, you know what? This is over. I don't love you. Never did. Don't call me again. And I hung up. That night, she called my cell phone and then the house phone over 300 times. Oh, we had to unplug the phone and turn my phone off. And she started Peppering with long emails, maybe 20, 25 a day. But she was posting pictures of us together on MySpace, talking about, we're so in love, we're getting married. And so this is where I did something that. That I don't know the legality of it, but I just sort of made the decision. I knew her MySpace password and her email password because it was my name.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Nick]

I logged into her MySpace and I deleted every single photo that there was of us. It's absolutely everything. Cleaned out the entire thing. And then I logged into her email and I deleted every single email that we'd ever sent to each other. And I'm like, that's it. A couple weeks later, I moved to England. A couple weeks into that, I was talking to one of the registrars there, and they pulled me aside, like, somebody listed you as a reference. They're trying to get into the program. I'm like, who's that? And I was like, it's this girl, Amy. She said that you would vouch for her. I was like, absolutely not. No. Thank God. They were like, no. So I haven't spoken to her since. The only person that's heard from her was randomly. Six months after all this went down, my sister, who lives in Maryland, got a package. She opened up the package and there was a loaf of bread, and then there was a picture of Amy.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Nick]

Not like a smiley picture, just like a deranged bug eye picture. And on the back it said, happy President's Day. And that was it.

[Dax Shepard]

You can't write this stuff. Happy President's Day.

[Nick]

She's sick, so I've never heard from her since. I tried to, like, Google to see where she's at. Cannot find her anywhere. And nobody that I know has heard from her.

[Dax Shepard]

This is so selfish, but if I were you, all I'd be thinking is like, God, I just need her to find the next guy she's gonna get crazy about. I just hope she finds another guy she's obsessed with and he has to deal with. Because you're like, what's the solution to this? Well, the only solution is get obsessed.

[Monica Padman]

With someone different to get on medication.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Monica Padman]

So that's the solution, I learned quite.

[Nick]

A bit from that one, is speak what your truth is and not try to just go along.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, I was going to say this earlier because I was maybe telling my kids this. I was like, you got to know that when you are in a situation where you want to say something, but it seems very cruel or it's going to hurt the person. What you have to know is you will have to say that there is no getting out of that, that you can delay it for some period of time and more stuff will happen. But just know the decision you're making is, I'll do it today or I'm going to do it sometime in the future and incur way more stuff. But it will have to get done. And I think that's what you tell yourself. There's going to be an easy, softer way out of this. There isn't in life.

[Nick]

Can I be sincere just for a sec? Is that okay? Since all this has happened, I'm a police detective and I specialize in homicide investigations, crimes against children, and sexual assault investigations, including stalking.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Nick]

I'm a day one armchairi. I actually emailed you guys in 2018 to say, like, thanks, please keep doing the podcast.

[Monica Padman]

Aww.

[Nick]

One of the parts of my job is I work with people who are survivors of crimes and abuse. I myself am a childhood abuse survivor. One in six boys at some point in their childhood will experience sexual abuse. And some boys never talk about it their entire life. It becomes this thing that weighs on their masculinity and really, really traumatic to even bring it up, much less work through it. Some of the guys that I've worked with that have disclosed this type of background, I've used an example to show that just because you acknowledge something for healing, it doesn't emasculate you. It helps you to be able to own your identity and who you are. It's something that can bring healing, and you don't have to sacrifice who you feel you are to be able to do that. So I just want to say thank you. I really appreciate what you've been doing and Monica as well.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, man. Brother. That was the very hardest thing I've ever said in my life to somebody. And thank you. Did you hear the Tyler Perry episode? For anyone that's struggling, his willingness and openness is really incredible.

[Nick]

Absolutely.

[Monica Padman]

Well, you're doing amazing work, it sounds like.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What a pleasure meeting you.

[Nick]

Thank you so much for having me on.

[Dax Shepard]

Of course. All right, have a great meeting. Great meeting you. Take care.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Hello. What fake name do you want, Brittany? It's Bitney Britch.

[Brittany]

That's right. That's exactly what I thought when I picked it.

[Dax Shepard]

Not only do you have a closet rocking, but you also have a nice blanket behind you that's going to be very sound damp.

[Brittany]

I have many blankets behind me.

[Monica Padman]

Very colorful.

[Hannah]

Thank you.

[Brittany]

We have an addiction. And we are okay with that. We love our blankies.

[Dax Shepard]

Of all the addictions, that one's pretty safe.

[Brittany]

I've given up a lot that weren't, so I call it a win.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Can you tell us where you're at?

[Brittany]

I am in southwest Michigan.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wonderful. I rented a house down there not terribly long ago in Stevensville. Stevensonville. On the water.

[Brittany]

I was gonna guess that, like, Michigan, South Haven, St. Joe, something like that.

[Dax Shepard]

We made Monica a fan.

[Monica Padman]

Ye. So fun.

[Brittany]

It's beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. On a darker note, you have a stalking story.

[Brittany]

I do. And I'm going to try not to laugh through it because. Well, you'll see.

[Monica Padman]

You get to.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You're allowed to.

[Brittany]

Obviously involves me, Brittany, and then my cousins. We're going to go with Carrie and Victoria. And Carrie and Victoria are sisters. This is 1996. I'm a junior in high school. Victoria is a year older than me, senior. And then Carrie is 21. So we're all pretty close. Definitely came in handy on those Friday night party nights. She had her own apartment. It was great. We pretty much are living our best lives at this time. We hang out all the time. Carrie works at a factory that's pretty big in the area. Second shift. And then she tells us about this guy she meets. We're gonna call him Kyle. We're all like, what a great guy. He's so nice. She's so happy. She deserves it. We're just like, oh, this is what dreams are made of. A few weeks into this relationship, she starts telling us about a girl named Karen who's quite jealous. She really likes Kyle, too. And, I mean, why wouldn't you? He's a really nice guy. Karen starts harassing Carrie. At first, just snide comments, rude remarks.

[Dax Shepard]

Do they all work together?

[Brittany]

Yes, they all work the same place. Carrie just every chance she gets a dig or something. And then Kyle, so sweet, he sends flowers to Carrie at work. And that kind of sets Karen off a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Brittany]

Karen starts following Carrie home at night. At first, just kind of driving by, yelling through the parking lot because it's an apartment complex she lives in. So this continues for probably a couple weeks. And then Victoria and I are like, something needs to be done. My cousin, her sister. We can't be having this. Karen is regularly showing up at Carrie's apartment after work. So we plan a stakeout.

[Dax Shepard]

I was just gonna add for color. And maybe we're not as unique in this as I think, but I just need to remind people, girls in Michigan fight.

[Brittany]

We Do?

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sure at some point you're like, there's three of us in one, Karen.

[Brittany]

Absolutely. We had it won before it started. We planned it all out. We're gonna jump her. She's never gonna see it.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, great. I just knew that was in the mix.

[Brittany]

Victoria and I are sitting in the car and we're waiting. And we have a perfect view. The apartment has like an open stairwell so we can see all the way through to the other side. We got a great vantage point. So we're waiting, and we're waiting. It's a Friday night. We're sure she's gonna show up. We see Carrie get home and go inside. And Carrie knew we were there, but she acted like she didn't. We wait probably an hour after Carrie gets home. No Karen. We go home the next day. Carrie calls Victoria and is like, she showed up after you guys came. And we're like, the audacity. How did we miss this? So I'm mad. I'm like, we're doing this again. No way this is happening again. Well, before we could plan it, Karen had come back another night and left a note on the door. A very threatening, harassing note. Another night later, Carrie gets home, Karen's there, and there's a little altercation, a pushing, a shoving, yelling.

[Dax Shepard]

We are supported by Edible Arrangements. There's just something special about getting a delivery, isn't there? Getting a gift from Edible Arrangements is a surefire way to put a smile on someone's face. I love when people send us this.

[Monica Padman]

It is really fun.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm really keen on the pineapple when.

[Monica Padman]

They come with the chocolate.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I can't get enough of that yummy goodness. You probably know Edible Arrangements has delicious fresh fruit bouquets, and those are great, but Edible Arrangements has so much more than that. They've got chocolate dipped fruit, new dessert boards with cakes, cookies and brownies, balloons, and even fresh flowers. And free gift wrapping is included so your gift recipient will feel extra special. So no matter what your occasion, hosting, thank yous, birthdays, celebrations, hey, even a good apology. Edible Arrangements is your one stop shop for gifting. And if you happen to forget a special occasion, no worries. Edible Arrangements has fast and flexible delivery with next day, same day, and even one hour delivery options. Go to ediblearrangements.com and use promo code ARMCHAIR10 to save $10 on your order. Over $59. Offer ends at midnight Eastern Standard Time on December 31st. Additional terms and conditions apply. See site for details. This message is Brought to you by Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card today and start earning up to 3% daily cash back on everyday purchases. And that daily cash can even grow automatically when you open a high yield savings account through Apple Card. What are you waiting for? Visit Apple Co Card Calculator today to see how much daily cash you can earn. Subject to credit approval Savings available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] we are supported by Macy's. Let Macy's be your guide to gifting this Father's Day. Father's Day is fast approaching and Macy's is the gift destination shop for your dad or all the important men in your life. They've got a great collection of clothes for him from brands like Lacoste, Tommy Hilfiger, Calvin Klein Levi's and more. If you're shopping for me, I love Levi's. The selection at Macy's is massive. So whether he's more of a tailored suit guy, likes to keep it casual and some comfy shorts and a polo, or only wears activewear, Macy's has all of that and more. And if you're looking for something different, you could snag him a fragrance. Sunglasses, electronics, barbecue, gadgets, sleepwear, gaming equipment, they make it easy to find something Dad's gonna love. So again, just grab me some Levi's. I'm size 33. Let Macy's be your guide to gifting for Father's Day. Shop now@macy's.com or in store.

[Brittany]

So at this point, Victoria and I are like, all right, dude, this is getting scary. She's regularly showing up. You need to go to the police. She goes to the police, files a report a couple days go by. So I'm talking to Victoria. What happened with the police? She's like, well, they did an investigation. I'm like, oh, fantastic. Well, what happened? Well, Carrie's not being stalked anymore. Good. Like, did Karen go to jail? And she's like, no, she did. I'm like, tell me what happened. And she, like, doesn't want to. I'm like, come on, I was ready to beat this girl's ass. She's like, well, the police talked to the florist, and the florist didn't describe a man that sent the flowers. And remember, 1996, we don't really track credit cards. Not many people have them. I said, okay, well, who did she describe? And she's like, carrie.

[Monica Padman]

I had a scary feeling when you said Karen arrived right after you left.

[Brittany]

I know, right? So I'm like, like what? And then they investigated further. Found out the note was from Cari's apartment and a couple other things. Like Carrie couldn't produce Karen's last name. Wouldn't give them Kyle's information. So Carrie got arrested. Not Karen. She was stalking herself.

[Dax Shepard]

Your cousin invented a stalker.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. That's kind of Munchausen Z.

[Dax Shepard]

Very Munchausen Z. I was on board.

[Brittany]

Hook, line and sinker. It was very convincing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Did you have any follow up with Carrie? Did it ever get talked about?

[Brittany]

We just pushed it under the rug and I kind of was like, note to self, we are taking a little step back.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. You know who you're dealing with.

[Brittany]

Truly, it hurts my heart that she felt she had to do this. You know, 1996, mental health wasn't talked about. But even in current times there's been some things not quite like that, but some like. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And was she ever even dating Kyle or did she just like Kyle at work? Work.

[Brittany]

We don't really know if he's real. Never met him.

[Monica Padman]

He's definitely not real.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I could see him being there and she just liked him and made.

[Monica Padman]

Up this whole fantasy about him.

[Dax Shepard]

And he's so great. Someone's jealous of it. It's like a whole soap opera.

[Monica Padman]

It also doesn't even make sense that he would send flowers to his own work. Why wouldn't he just bring flowers?

[Dax Shepard]

Good point. Or send them to her house. These are the questions you ask after the fact.

[Brittany]

Yeah. And at the little age of 17, I was just all like, oh, he's the flowers. And no, he didn't think about that stuff of now.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you and Carrie's younger sister ever have a session about it? Talk it through?

[Brittany]

Not really because she's pretty protective. Even then I was much more open to like therapy and things. Like maybe we should have her talk to somebody. And she's like, no, we don't mention it. She pretty much just got a felony and we're just not going to talk about it.

[Monica Padman]

What was the charge?

[Brittany]

Falsifying a police report.

[Monica Padman]

Oh no.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my God. I can't believe she was like letting you guys sit out there for an hour on the steak.

[Brittany]

We were like pumped. Probably on Red Bull and who knows what. I was like ready just to grab anybody and start throwing down.

[Dax Shepard]

She is just some random.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God. Thank God somebody else didn't come to the door.

[Dax Shepard]

That could have ended in a real arrest or a real assault.

[Brittany]

It could have because we had no description of who she was. We were just gonna jump anybody that went to that door.

[Dax Shepard]

I started yelling, oh wow, Brittany. That was a good twist of a story. I like that.

[Monica Padman]

Really good twist.

[Dax Shepard]

It's good to have some twisty light hearted ones in the middle of these to be honest. Honest. If you have to pick between someone has a real stalker or a fake one, you know, I hope they have a fake one.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Brittany]

That's what I'm going to hope for if I ever have one.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So nice meeting you.

[Brittany]

Nice to meet you too. Being here with you is like winning the lotto. Probably better.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I don't know about that.

[Brittany]

If I ever get it, I'll let you know the comparison. But right now this is money right here.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, thank you Britney.

[Brittany]

Nice to meet you. You guys have a great day.

[Dax Shepard]

What if her cousin was. Oh the Amy Michigan.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, she was from Michigan, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, the ages aren't right. No, they are right. Are they my age?

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God. What is that?

[Dax Shepard]

Would be incredible.

[Monica Padman]

Should we ask him what the real name was?

[Dax Shepard]

Perhaps. Hi, how are you?

[Hannah]

I'm good.

[Dax Shepard]

What fake name do you want? Have you thought of one?

[Hannah]

Hannah. My best friend picked it because she thinks do I look like a Hannah? I think you do.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Are you allowed to tell us where you're at or no?

[Hannah]

I think I'd rather just say I'm in the mid West.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. Midwest is popular for stalkers. Just so you know, Pacific Northwest and Midwest seems to be a hot spots for stalkers. Maybe the shitty weather, maybe people are bored.

[Hannah]

Actually it's been pretty here.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I'm jealous. It's gloomy as hell here.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so lay the scene for us.

[Hannah]

This happened in 2017. It was eight years ago and there's things I would do differently. Let me just say that. So at the time ride share were fairly new to the area and I was really uncomfortable. It's sort of intimate, right? Yes. I mean you're getting in stranger's car with a stranger driving you and it's like go to my house.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, 100%.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me show you where I live.

[Hannah]

It was really weird. So for a while I was rideshare adverse but eventually I sort of accepted it. And probably about six months after I decided to start using rideshare, I'm going to use that instead of a company name.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Hannah]

So I was at a restaurant with my girlfriend and decided I wanted to ride share home. So I ordered a ride share and came to the restaurant and it was about 12 minutes from my house. So we're talking. This was a short drive. We're gonna call driver Bill.

[Dax Shepard]

And what time of night was it? When did this dinner conclude?

[Hannah]

Like 8:45. It was not late. So I get in the car and driver Bill was really nice. I liked him. Chatty, Just small talk, nothing big, just a little fluffy.

[Dax Shepard]

Can you tell me Bill's age? Ish.

[Hannah]

It's funny. So I'm 53 and I thought he was about 10 years older than me, but I actually think he was about eight years younger.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so some hard miles, maybe Very hard miles.

[Hannah]

So we're pulling into my neighborhood and he says, these houses are so cute and I love this neighborhood and I wonder what the value of the houses are. And I said, well, interestingly enough, I'm a real estate agent. We talked just a little bit and he's pulling up to my house and I said, well, if you are serious, serious about purchasing a house, here is my business card.

[Monica Padman]

So far you're fine.

[Dax Shepard]

You've done nothing wrong.

[Monica Padman]

You've done what most of us would do.

[Hannah]

So I learned later that a ride share driver is not allowed to call someone outside of the ride. After the ride. It's done.

[Dax Shepard]

I've just registered with all these ride shares and yeah, you're not allowed to get a number. There's all these stuff you can't say. Even if you were invited to get romantic with someone, you cannot do that.

[Monica Padman]

That's good. I mean, I'm glad to know that.

[Hannah]

Some of that stuff actually happened closer to like 2019 in response. This was in the beginning. It was a little bit of risky business Wild west, right? So I give him my card and I go into my house and it's 9pm and I climb into bed and I'm sleeping and all of a sudden my phone dings at like 11:30pm Ooh. And I get a text and it says, this is your rideshare driver. You are a very elegant woman. Thank you for, for the card and I will call you tomorrow. Oh, we had a couple red flags there. But I was in the era, this is eight years ago, of I want to help people. I want to work with first time home buyers. I see the good in everyone. I'm like, maybe he's just socially awkward, maybe I can help him. But you have that ick. And it's funny, as a realtor, you get that ick with people. It's that intuition. Okay, well, I had it, but I was trying to talk myself out of it. So the next morning, sure enough, get it, text. When are we gonna get together? And at that point, I'm like, oh, gosh. And I was really busy, but I thought, well, I'm gonna process this a little bit more. So I say to him, listen, I'm super busy. Let's reconvene next week. Dude didn't wait. He was texting me, how are you? Did you have a good day? It got creepy. So I figured out very quick, this dude don't wanna buy a house.

[Monica Padman]

No. He wants to date you, probably.

[Dax Shepard]

He does want to live in your neighborhood, but in your house.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

So at some point, I just pulled back. I'm not gonna respond to this. It's forward a few days, and I've pulled up to my company parking lot. All of a sudden, I get this barrage of text messages from this guy. He is going off on me. He is saying, you promised me this, you promised me that, and you have not done what you were supposed to. And it goes on. I mean, he's cussing at me. He's like, I am on my way to your office.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Hannah]

What I responded with is, I cannot work with you. You. Here is the name and number of a colleague of mine who has your name. Call him. He is waiting for your call, trying to keep it professional. Well, all of a sudden, my phone is blowing up, and I thought, well, I'm going to answer one time because I wanted to set a boundary and say, we're done. So I pick up the phone, and of course, he's screaming and kind of going off, and. And I said to him, I sent you the information. Don't ever call me again.

[Monica Padman]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Mm.

[Hannah]

Hung up. He texts me, I am truly on my way to your office. It was terrifying. So I go into my office, and of course, at the time, I told my manager in the front desk, and they locked the office down. Thankfully, he never showed up. But for the next week, someone always walked me to my car. This was scary stuff.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Of course. In the back of your mind, you know, this guy knows where I live.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Oh, it was awful. And I did not block him because I thought if something happens, I want record of he threatens me or something. But he didn't call, he didn't text. So I really thought, we're fine. Well, about a week later, I open up Facebook. And my Facebook is public because of my job. And this is how I market myself. But I have a friend request from this guy. I am like, leave me alone. And so at that point, I think he knows what my children look like. It's obvious he could have found me. But I guess I'm still kind of naive thinking this guy is gone. But he wasn't. So at that point, I think I've got to call rideshare corporate.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice.

[Hannah]

And no one answered. No one responded to messages. I finally get someone to email me back. I mean, I sent pictures, screenshots of what he said. And they said to me, that's very disturbing. Here is your money back.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God. Great, thanks for the $8.

[Hannah]

And I just responded like, what are you guys doing about this? Tell me. And they said, well, it's private, we can't tell you.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you need to say we called him, he's been fired.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And he no longer called the cops.

[Monica Padman]

For this ride share company.

[Hannah]

Then nothing happened. So I thought, well, maybe he got into trouble and we're done. So I've got my 10 year old son, my 13 year old daughter in the car with me and it's night and I'm pulling down the road to my house and I see this car in front of my house. And for a minute I thought, well, maybe a neighbor's having people over. But I'm looking around thinking, nobody's having a party, I can tell. So I pull into my driveway with the kids. It's the same shape car, it's the same color. And. And I can see there is a man sitting in the front seat. It was Bill. And I was so scared, I locked the doors of my car and I called the police.

[Monica Padman]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, good.

[Hannah]

And I thought, I don't want my children 30ft from this crazy man. And so I said, guys, we're gonna run to the house. Maybe that was a bad mistake, but it was what I did. So we all jumped out of the car and we ran to the door and I locked the doors. So I'm standing at the front door and he's not left and I see the police lights and I can hear the sirens coming down the street. And he takes off. Yeah, I run to the street and there were two police cars and I run and I said he just left, go chase him. He drove off. And then the other guy I just told the whole story to. And unfortunately the first police officer comes back and he says he was gone, I couldn't find him. And he says, well, what is his name? And so I had the name from Facebook, so I gave him the name.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good.

[Hannah]

And he went back to his car and did what he did. And he comes back and both of Them just say, look, he has not broken any laws. There's nothing we can do. Which I'm sure you've heard this.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's maddening. Well, there's something you can do. You go talk to this guy and you go. We are monitoring you. We are aware of what you've done. And if you do anything, we are going to arrest you. That's what you do.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know. Why aren't they doing that?

[Hannah]

What they said to me is, we are going to patrol your block. We're gonna drive in front of your house a lot more for now, and you call us if there's a problem. They were very nice, but, you know, their hands are tied.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Hannah]

So nothing happens. Time goes by and I think he's done.

[Dax Shepard]

I called the cops. He got his scare. He got spooked. Yeah, right.

[Hannah]

We just broke up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Hannah]

It was like a month, six weeks. I get on Instagram and he is following me. So I went to his Instagram profile before I blocked him. And I guarantee he had just created that profile because the picture was like the day before. He had no followers. Wait, 12 minutes. Let go of me.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, this is. He has a real hang up.

[Hannah]

Oh, I blocked him and he never came back around. And I actually looked him up as a realtor. We have an app on our phone that allows us to do background checks. And I don't know why I'd never thought of it, but he is many states away at this point.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's good.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, he's someone else's.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

The thing is, when we have these stories, I don't ever feel better.

[Dax Shepard]

I know the person we're talking to has maybe been free of it, but there's no way the person's different.

[Hannah]

I know it's sad. I mean, there was a woman who was murdered by an Uber driver a couple years later. And even as real tours, crazy things have happened. So at least people are more aware of these things. And there are safeguards in place that were not before with some of the rideshare. And also as agents, they've taught us new things. And it's sad that times have changed and we're not completely safe. But in my business, I'm out in front of the public, I'm networking with strangers.

[Dax Shepard]

You have to constantly be sharing intimate spaces with people you don't know.

[Hannah]

Right. So I'm giving out my business card a lot. But I will tell you, I have never given my business card again to a ride share driver.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's probably a good policy. Well, if you're ever. If you're ever in Detroit, feel free to call. Cause you might get Aaron weekly. And you'll be safe. He'll even protect you from the bad guys.

[Monica Padman]

True.

[Hannah]

So I have to tell you guys, currently my son is 18. When he hit about 13 years old, they go from they love their mom to they don't want to speak to their mom.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Mom's embarrassing.

[Hannah]

He turns 13, 14, and he doesn't want anything to do with me, but he can't drive, so I'm his ride share.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right. Yeah. You're his bill.

[Hannah]

I don't get paid. So I would take him places and of course, try to talk. I'm all cheery, you know. And he's like, mom, stop. I don't want to talk. I'm listening to music.

[Dax Shepard]

So brutal.

[Hannah]

So I started playing Armchair Expert and in particular, Armchair Anonymous. And slowly I realized he was listening. And then I would drop him off, I'd say, do you want me to pause it till you get back in the car? And he says, yes.

[Monica Padman]

Aw, this is so cute.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, we have observed this weird thing we keep hearing from people, that they listen to it with their kids. And then in my own own life, my kids have zero interest in the interviews I do. Even if they are obsessed with a singer. I'll go, like, do you want to hear it? And they'll go, yeah. And then five minutes, and they're like, I don't want to hear it every time we record these. And they know I've done Armchair Anonymous at dinner, they go, what stories did you hear today? Kids are really fascinated with the things that are going on.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Hannah]

Yes. Thank you very much for getting my teenage boy to talk to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, and now he's got to listen to you and get, guess what, son? I think you're cool.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, mom is cool. Son.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, lovely meeting you.

[Monica Padman]

So nice to meet you.

[Dax Shepard]

You're in the right business.

[Hannah]

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment.

[Dax Shepard]

It is a compliment. Yeah. All right, well, take care.

[Monica Padman]

Thanks for chatting.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice meeting you.

[Hannah]

Nice to meet you, too.

[Monica Padman]

It's tough out there. It's tough out there.

[Dax Shepard]

Mostly tough out there for the gals.

[Monica Padman]

Well, there were some scary girls in this batch. Oh, stalkers, stalkers, stalkers. We did it again.

[Dax Shepard]

And we'll do it again.

[Brittany]

I love you.

[Monica Padman]

I love you.

[Nick]

Do you want to sing a tune or something? We know a theme song.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. Great. We don't have a theme song for this new show. So here I go, go go. We're going to ask some random questions and with the help of arm cherries, we'll get some suggestions on the fly rhyme dish on the flying ra. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry App, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey this.

[Rob]

Is Nick and this is Jack. We're best friends, ex finance guys and resident 90s experts. And every week on our podcast the Best Best Idea yet, we're bringing you the untold stories behind your favorite products. For instance, can you guess which billion dollar fashion company went viral thanks to a rhinestone covered tracksuit? Or which cartoon turned four turtles into a global toy empire by accident? It started as a joke. Last one which cold beverage was so hated by Starbucks they actually ended up acquiring it?

[Nick]

Spoiler.

[Rob]

The Frappuccino. Howard Schultz apparently thought cold coffee was super lame and then he bought it. From Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to Juicy Couture to the Orange Mocha Frappuccino, join us every week to learn how your favorite things got made. Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. And if this podcast lasts longer than 45 minutes, call your doctor.