Brandi Carlile

Summary

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Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Guest: Brandi Carlile

Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and humorous episode, Dax Shepard and co-host Lily Padman welcome acclaimed singer-songwriter Brandi Carlile. Their conversation spans Brandi’s rural upbringing, her connection to music and activism, experiences with religion, personal growth as a queer artist, and reflections on ambition, legacy, and parenting. Brandi shares stories of her rise from small-town beginnings to Grammy-winning stardom, her role as a collaborator with legendary artists, motherhood, and finding fulfillment both onstage and off. The episode closes with a moving live performance of "You Without Me," dedicated to the bittersweet experience of parenting.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brandi’s Upbringing and Early Life

• Rural Roots: Brandi describes her childhood in Ravensdale, Washington—a tiny, coal-mining town—and the formative experience of growing up with few resources but strong family bonds. She and Dax connect over the freedoms and risks of rural living.

  • Notable quote:

    “We were just lighting stuff on fire. I mean, you’re allowed to do whatever came across your mind because there’s no supervision and there’s no one around to catch you.”
    —Dax [08:01]

• Family Struggles: The family frequently moved (14 homes in 17 years) due to economic instability and her father’s battle with alcoholism.

  • Notable quote:

    “We’re just a chaotic unit of dysfunction that just deeply loves each other.”
    —Brandi [38:33]

• Parental Influence: Brandi’s mother was a talented country singer—a legacy Brandi credits for her own love of performing.

2. Growing Up LGBTQ+ and Experiences with Religion

• Coming Out Early: Brandi was one of the only openly gay people in her small town and faced both subtle and overt exclusion, particularly from the local church.

  • Notable quote:

    “You know me. I go, you know I’m gay. Everyone knows I’m gay. I’m the gay person in town. I’m like the town gay.”
    —Brandi [24:40]

• Church Exclusion: At 16, Brandi was denied baptism by her church because of her sexuality—an experience both humiliating and pivotal.

  • Notable quote:

    “I just laughed. I just burst out laughing because I didn’t understand why that question was pertinent, and I still don’t…”
    —Brandi [23:54]

  • Emotional aftermath: The townspeople turned against the pastor for his exclusion.

    “Suddenly I was loved and accepted... the whole town got mad on my behalf.”
    —Brandi [25:17]

• Personal Faith: Despite institutional rejection, Brandi’s spiritual connection deepened after a near-death experience as a child, forming a lasting, independent sense of faith.

  • Quote:

    “I was just like riding shotgun with this Jesus character.”
    —Brandi [18:00]

3. On Ambition, Music, and Hustle

• Obsession and “Coyote” Mentality: Brandi describes her drive to succeed as “coyote for achievement”—a survival skill born from instability.

  • Quote:

    “I’m a coyote for achievement. I’m a coyote for stability and money.”
    —Brandi [39:17]

• Early Music Career: She hustled through gigs at restaurants, busked on the streets, built personal mailing lists, and strategically grew her audience in the Seattle area.

  • Quote:

    “You gotta make opportunities every chance you get.”
    —Brandi [44:32]

• Collaboration with Seattle Twins: Meeting Tim and Phil Hanseroth ("the Twins") in a grunge-era studio set the foundation for her signature musical partnership.

• Breakthrough and Industry Lessons: Brandi discusses interactions with legendary producers Rick Rubin and T Bone Burnett, navigating between creative autonomy and external definitions of “greatness.”

  • Quote:

    “He [Rick Rubin] actually used the word great all the time, and I felt that word was subjective. I needed to be the determining factor.”
    —Brandi [62:17]

4. Sobriety, Recovery, and Generational Change

• Echoes with Dax: Both discuss growing up with addicted fathers and their own complicated relationships with sobriety, recovery, and family legacy.

  • Quote:

    “In AA, the saying is you won’t change until your hair is on fire.”
    —Dax [16:06]

• Changing Parenting Norms: Reflecting on differing attitudes toward children’s independence and safety, and the balance between fostering resilience and protecting kids from trauma.

5. Love, Marriage Equality, and Activism

• Marriage as a Right: Brandi and Dax bond over waiting for marriage equality before getting married—insisting on solidarity with LGBTQ+ friends and highlighting the practical exclusions couples faced (hospital visits, immigration, property rights).

  • Quote:

    “I just don’t think any one religion has a monopoly on two people choosing to spend their lives together...”
    —Brandi [29:09]

• Founding the Looking Out Foundation: Brandi shares using early commercial earnings to launch her foundation, with work spanning anti-violence programs, hunger, LGBTQ+ advocacy, refugee outreach, and COVID relief.

6. Legacy, Self-Doubt, and Creative Evolution

• Ambition and Success: Brandi describes the counterintuitive increase in self-consciousness and fear of failure as her career advanced.

  • Quote:

    “I put out album after album without even knowing when the Grammys were. And now I’m thinking about the Grammys before I write the song...”
    —Brandi [54:31]

  • Dax responds:

    “If you’ve never been nominated for a Grammy, who cares? Once you get nominated... it’s yours to not do.” [55:36]

• Collaborations with Legends: Brandi recounts working with, and often helping revive, careers of iconic artists such as Tanya Tucker, Joni Mitchell, Elton John, and Dolly Parton.

  • Notable story: The genesis of the “Joni Jams,” Joni Mitchell’s return to singing, and her performance at the Hollywood Bowl.

    “Joni Mitchell always has a plan.”
    —Russ Kunkel (quoted by Brandi) [76:37]

7. Parenting & the Bittersweet of “Letting Go”

• Motherhood: Brandi and Dax reflect deeply on the push-pull of raising children to be independent.

  • Quote:

    “[The song is] about these little moments... where it occurs to you that they’re gonna leave. They’re their own people.”
    —Brandi [93:15]

• Live Performance: The episode culminates with Brandi performing “You Without Me,” a poignant meditation on seeing your child take steps away from you towards their own life.

  • Memorable moment:

    “Every time you say ‘without me,’ thinking, oh, no. You’re going to have a whole life without me.”
    —Dax [98:19]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On feeling different and resilient:
  “I just have always been pretty oblivious to not being cool... I didn’t know that people were laughing at my obsessions or my eccentricity. And so I was like, yeah, I’m gay.” —Brandi [22:22]

• On exclusion and acceptance:
  “It was about the most embarrassed I’ve ever been in my life... and suddenly I was loved and accepted.” —Brandi [25:17]

• On creative hustle:
  “You gotta make opportunities every chance you get.” —Brandi [44:32]

• On the tension with Rick Rubin:
  “He actually used the word great all the time... I needed to be the Determining factor between what I was making and whether it was great or not great.” —Brandi [62:17]

• On ambition and fulfillment:
  “Once you do get what you want, before you sit there and marinate in it long enough to let it change, you get right on into doing that for somebody else.” —Brandi [80:34]

• On Live Performance with Joni Mitchell:
  “Listening to this woman sing this song... being 82 years old, and really having looked at life from both sides now, it’s like, how did I get this seat?” —Brandi [77:55]

• On letting your children go:
  “These are the little, like, moments where it occurs to you that they’re gonna leave... and they’re tiny things at first. And that’s what I wrote this song about.” —Brandi [93:23]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• [03:11] — “Girls Just Want a Weekend” festival: Concept and inclusivity.
• [12:02] — Brandi and Dax discuss their fathers’ alcoholism and family impact.
• [20:21] — Brandi’s experience coming out and being denied baptism.
• [29:09] — Conversation on the civil right of marriage equality.
• [38:33] — Mobility and family dynamics growing up.
• [44:32] — Building a career through relentless hustling and networking.
• [54:31] — Fears, legacy, and internal/external pressures of musical success.
• [76:37] — The revival of Joni Mitchell’s live performance.
• [93:15] — Brandi introduces and explains the song “You Without Me.”
• [98:19] — The emotional impact of the song and discussion on parenting.

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Episode’s Tone and Style

This episode is intimate, sincere, and laced with Dax and Lily’s signature warmth and humor. Brandi’s candor and thoughtfulness foster a space for reflection, laughter, and the kind of raw vulnerability the podcast is known for. There are many playful asides about parenthood, music-industry oddities, growing up as outsiders, and a celebration of chosen and biological families.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

You’ll come away understanding:

• The powerful, sometimes isolating, journey of growing up queer in rural America.
• The personal sacrifices and emotional labor behind artistic “overnight” success.
• The complex interplay between ambition, artistry, family, and service to others.
• The realities and rewards of loving fiercely—be it through parenting, activism, or music.

Above all, Brandi Carlile’s voice—both literal and figurative—shines as a testament to radical authenticity, resilience, and the enduring power of connection.

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Final Thoughts

Whether you’re a longtime fan or discovering Brandi Carlile for the first time, this Armchair Expert episode is a rich tapestry of honesty, humor, inspiration, and song—a must-listen for anyone who believes in the messy, beautiful, human journey toward belonging and meaning.

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Brandi’s New Album and Tour

• Album: Returning to Myself (out now)
• Tour: Dates and tickets at brandicarlile.com

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[Listen to the heartbreakingly beautiful live performance of "You Without Me" at 93:46–98:19]

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Welcome, welcome. Welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[Lily Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

My voice broke there.

[Lily Padman]

Let's leave it.

[Brandi Carlile]

It's very.

[Lily Padman]

Because it's a ding ding ding. Oh my gosh. It's a ding ding ding. To the episode.

[Dax Shepard]

It is.

[Lily Padman]

Her voice breaks in one of her most famous songs.

[Dax Shepard]

Really good job. Brandi Carlisle Brandi Carlisle is an 11 time Grammy Award winning singer, songwriter and producer. Her albums are by the way, I forgive you in these silent Days the story returning to myself currently on the Human Tour. For dates and tickets go to brandycarlisle.com guys I loved her.

[Lily Padman]

This was such a fun episode.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I really really loved her.

[Lily Padman]

And she sings for us.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, she sings for us. Please enjoy Brandi Carlisle this message is brought to you by Apple Card. For a limited time when you get a new Apple card and purchase AirPods Pro 3 at Apple you can earn back the cost of up to 250 Daily Cash. New AirPods Pro and up to $250 Bonus Daily Cash back. Now that's music to my ears. Subject to credit approval, limitations and spend requirements apply. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch terms and more At Apple Co AirPods we are supported by quints. Monica we love quints.

[Lily Padman]

We do. We do love quints.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Lily Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Lily Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Brandi Carlile]

We're so Happy to have you, and I'm really excited to talk to you guys. This is. Is awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

I purposely was not around because I knew the stakes were really high. You just met Anna?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Yeah. She was great.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. She was so nervous to meet you.

[Dax Shepard]

She's never asked in eight years to meet anybody.

[Lily Padman]

She was like, I have to. She's a huge fan.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, man. Well, I have this thing called Girls Just Want a Weekend every year.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Mexico.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. It's like, life changing for a lot of people because you get lured into it thinking it's a festival, but really, it's like a whole experience. You got to come.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

You got to have.

[Dax Shepard]

It's all female performers, right?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Are men welcome?

[Brandi Carlile]

Men are treated like absolute celebrities.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Oh.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, my God. The way that we basically hoist you onto our shoulders and carry you around like a trophy if you come to our festival. Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, Now I want to go. I love the idea of being merch

[Brandi Carlile]

for just men that says, like, I survived. Girls just want a weekend.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's great.

[Brandi Carlile]

We sing.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Let's hear it for the boy.

[Dax Shepard]

These boys are here.

[Lily Padman]

That's right. Okay. I think you do great there, Dax.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, I just think when men will leave the country to attend a festival with all women or non binary headliners, it's like, yeah, that's awesome. Those men are rad.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, good, good, good, good. I was reading about it, and you must know that we heard the most sincere and authentic review of this festival from Anna.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah. She had.

[Dax Shepard]

She got back, and I had a million questions. I'm like, is it a lesbian festival? And she's like, yes and no. Not overtly, but yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. A lot of gay men are starting, which is really cool. There's this, like, whole contingency of really sapphically focused gay men that are really enjoying it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. This sounds like the happiest group imaginable, to be honest.

[Lily Padman]

I think that's why it's life changing.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, it's pretty good.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. That's awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

Kristin has described it. She's not Ben, but just given all the feedback from Ana, she said, you know, it's the polar opposite of woodstock99. If you're trying to think of an

[Brandi Carlile]

event I can be anymore in one way or another, it's a response to that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But you saw Lilith Fair when you were a kid. Yeah. You went to the Lilith Fair festival.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yep. That's actually what I think got me. Wanting to do this, was that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What age were you when you went to that?

[Brandi Carlile]

17. So so formative. Yeah. I had this one experience in particular where I was just this little scallywag kid, all sunburned and drinking Mountain Dews. Like these big refillable Mountain Dews all day. And I, like, took my bucket of Mountain Dew to have it refilled to the Mountain Dew stand. And there was this lesbian standing in line behind me. And she goes, honey, what are you getting to drink? And I was like, a Mountain Dew. And she goes, you need some water and you're sunburned. And she put sunscreen on my shoulders. She made me fill my bucket on one hand. I was like. But then I got older, and I was like, I need a festival like that, you know?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's like we're taking care of each

[Dax Shepard]

other, you know, looking out. Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

That is the opposite of Woodstock.

[Brandi Carlile]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

It does make me think what you tell your children when you have children, which is like, okay, if you're alone, you find a police officer.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You cannot find a police officer, which you likely will not find. A woman with kids.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, that's what I said. We say find a mom. Yep, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Go to a woman.

[Lily Padman]

A single woman.

[Dax Shepard]

Just keep going down the line.

[Brandi Carlile]

Find a lesbian.

[Dax Shepard]

If you can't find a man, find a dude in a Corvette with his shirt off.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. You might as well just run into the street.

[Dax Shepard]

Where was the Lilith? Was it in Gasworks Park?

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, good question. You know, Seattle.

[Dax Shepard]

I've drank in a lot of 40s at Gasworks.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I dated a girl for nine years that was from Marysville.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay. No, it's at the Gorge.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, perfect.

[Brandi Carlile]

In fact, that's where it started, 1997.

[Dax Shepard]

Perfect.

[Brandi Carlile]

And that was the year Tracy Chapman was on that lineup. Sarah and the Indigo Girl. I mean, it was amazing. Erykah Badu was on the year. Sinead o' Connor was there the year.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, God, I love Erykah Badu.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, so.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Ravens.

[Brandi Carlile]

Dale.

[Dax Shepard]

Ravens. Dale. A lot of Dales in that area.

[Brandi Carlile]

There might be a Dale or two.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, there's a Dale or two up there.

[Lily Padman]

Couple Dales.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, Ravensdale, it seems almost impossible because it's 28 miles from Seattle, yet it has a population of 500 people.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, Seattle's like that. It's a bit like Anchorage in a way, where you can land in Seattle, get yourself, like, the most delicious silky cappuccino you've ever drank, and then a half an hour later, see a bear.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And be potentially lost.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. That's what I love about it.

[Dax Shepard]

That is cool. The history of the town fascinated me because it's a coal mining town. You don't associate Washington with coal mining.

[Brandi Carlile]

You kind of can. I mean, it was one of the first in terms of that Ravensdale is a bit of a subsidiary of another town called Black diamond, which is a neighboring town. And actually. And Loretta Lynn lived there.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, for a time. And yeah, when I was a kid, we were running around. There's coal mines everywhere. You gotta watch out for mine shafts and everything. In fact, I got my last spanking for playing in a mineshaft.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, gosh, I'm so jealous.

[Dax Shepard]

I would have loved a mine shaft when I was a kid. We liked rock quarries. Cause there was water.

[Brandi Carlile]

Same. And mineshafts, they got water in them too, I bet. But they're bottomless.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, so you like to flirt with danger. If you're playing over there, you're a rascal a little bit. I would stand far away.

[Dax Shepard]

I think feral's the. The right word.

[Lily Padman]

Right?

[Dax Shepard]

So I grew up in a rural area too, and I will say that's not necessarily what I wanted for my kids, but boy, do I cherish the amount of. We were just lighting stuff on fire. I mean, you're allowed to do whatever came across your mind because there's no supervision and there's no one around to catch you.

[Brandi Carlile]

What parts of it don't you want for your kids?

[Dax Shepard]

I. Again, this is probably rooted in all my own personal stuff, but it's like too much privacy out there, too many places to hide. And just like, I couldn't get caught lighting shit on fire. Adults were getting caught for stuff. And there's a general that part of it I don't love.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, no, you're exactly right.

[Dax Shepard]

Look, and again, I would love to see dad on this, but where I was from, we had to have over indexed. We had a serial killer, a small town, every single person was molested. I know. I just feel like it's safer here.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, we don't do sleepovers.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, a lot of people don't anymore.

[Brandi Carlile]

It's amazing. That is something about our generation. Having realized that maybe we all had too much freedom whether we lived in a rural area or not. Yeah, I was trying to explain that to my kids. I would be like, we would get on our bikes, it would be 8 o' clock in the morning, and we would maybe come home at some point after dark, and no one knew where we were, how we were getting money or candy.

[Dax Shepard]

Weren't even curious. Didn't even ask you what your day was like.

[Brandi Carlile]

No.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

And back to what's dangerous about it is like, I know, you know, because I had it a million times, if my kids run into somebody dicey on the street, which they do, it's la, There's a bunch of homeless people. They always have someone in sight they could yell to. How many times when you're a kid and you're out in the woods or you're somewhere and you come across an adult, like a sold adult, and it's freaky, you know, there's nobody around and this weird adult's in the woods for some reason too. You have a lot of those moments when you grow up. I think rural, I do.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I didn't experience any significant traumas, but I can see the near misses now. How many times it got close to my battleship. Yeah, it's crazy. Like I remember getting in this guy's truck that was like the town scary guy. But he told me that there were trout biting in this quarry. And I was like, no, that's an empty pond that's full of water. And he's like, no, there's a stream that's dumping kokanee into it. I'll show you right where they're biting. And I was like, I shouldn't get into your truck, but I want those kokanee.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't imagine loving fish in the water.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I did.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what people do to go get drugs. Like, I don't trust this guy, but fuck, I do. Want coke.

[Brandi Carlile]

Coconut. Coconut.

[Lily Padman]

Oh my God.

[Brandi Carlile]

No, I did and it was fine. But I mean, near miss, right? Or even that the guy would put a 13 year old girl in his truck is horrifying without our parents permission and then totally innocuously take her to show her where to catch trout. It's kind of unbelievable.

[Dax Shepard]

You got lucky.

[Brandi Carlile]

I got lucky every time, but a lot of folks don't. So I actually know what you mean about that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's just that element. And again, I love it because I got through it and I feel like I got all my confidence from that because I was navigating these weird situations and dangerous ones and kids were getting hurt and all that. I think you enter the real world and you're like, I got to get a job and pay for bills, that's fine.

[Brandi Carlile]

The question is, how do you recreate those kinds of experiences for your kids without exposing them to the possibility of real trauma? You want them to have the street smarts we have. You want them to understand that not everybody is upper middle Class or privileged in a way, but you can't falsify or recreate.

[Dax Shepard]

I know I'm coming across as the kind of parent. We're actually quite free range, really. Oh, yeah. Like, we were in Denmark and we're like, cool. This is Trevoli's Gardens. It's huge, but it's all encapsulated. We're like, have fun. We will see you in six hours. Here is a credit card. You know, like, go.

[Brandi Carlile]

And they're 11 and 13. Am I right?

[Dax Shepard]

At the time, they were nine and 11. Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

With other kids, too, though, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, they were split up. So, yes, Lily went with maybe Lincoln, but Dolly and Delta got it in their mind they were going to set a record on a roller coaster and they wrote it, you know, 60 times in a row or something. So they did split up. They were in another country, and it's just like, yeah, it'll work out. They're smart. So I do have that side of me, too.

[Lily Padman]

Wow. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And that's how you do it. You set up those situations of kind of controlled chaos.

[Dax Shepard]

It's within reason.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. What were mom and dad like? What were they up to? I think we share an addict father.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. We may share the actual one. We don't know. We don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

I think I'd be cuter, but. Yeah, I got this bum into that stick.

[Lily Padman]

That would be huge. What a revelation.

[Brandi Carlile]

I mean, this would go so, so viral.

[Dax Shepard]

He was a car fan.

[Lily Padman]

The biggest episode of all.

[Dax Shepard]

Dave Shepherd.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. So I grew up in that kind of house.

[Dax Shepard]

How old were they when they had. You're the middle.

[Brandi Carlile]

I'm the oldest daughter, and I'm the oldest grandchild on both sides. So I have all that superiority complex going for me and this enormous sense of responsibility to balance it out. So they were young. They were like 19 and 20 or 20 and 21, like, right around there. And they got married while they were pregnant with me. And I'm not sure how long it took for my dad to sort of succumb to pretty severe alcoholism or if he kind of was already always drinking. I may actually know this, but I'm not recalling it off the top of my head, but, yeah, he had a really, really bad drinking problem most of my childhood.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he employed?

[Brandi Carlile]

He was employed initially at the Boeing in Tacoma. Yeah, but you gotta build airplanes. You gotta stay sober.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, you do.

[Dax Shepard]

Of all the jobs we allow people to be.

[Brandi Carlile]

So that's a big one. You know, he would go in recovery and he would go to rehab. And he would where he would even be somebody else's sponsor. Like, he'd be clean that long. It made it that much more heartbreaking when he would fall and would you

[Dax Shepard]

see the signs percolating up? Did you ever feel like you had a sense of when those times were coming?

[Brandi Carlile]

No, it always surprised me. And I actually think maybe now that I'm an adult, that's why I never let anything surprise me ever. I don't even like getting a birthday present. I'm like, tell me what it is and we'll talk about it.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

When he was drunk, what version of a drunk was he?

[Brandi Carlile]

Just unpredictable. He's really smart, hyper, articulate, kind of a victim of a overactive mind. And alcohol is obviously something that he used to sort of quell that. But because he's so naturally he would not like this, but quite dogmatic and marinating and rhetoric all the time. His sobriety would become a family religion. So we would be an al anon alateen. We would be learning that we'd have the slogans, we had the one liners. And then he would fall off the wagon and it would feel like we fell off a skyscraper.

[Lily Padman]

Well, yeah. Your ident, all of your identities and

[Dax Shepard]

the whole friendship group is all members of aa, I'm sure.

[Brandi Carlile]

I wish. I think that's part of the problem.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

Is that, you know, you kind of described that small town situation. No, they were not. And my dad, he doesn't have like an ego, but he's kind of self important in a way. And just if what is needed in theory for an addict to stay clean is a positive friend group, he doesn't believe that applies to him. He's the one guy, he can do

[Lily Padman]

it on his own.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm always like, when I entered recovery, they're like, you know, here's six things that work for people. And I'm like, let's see if I can do it with one, get three months relapse and then come back. I'm open to doing two of the things. I mean, literally, I had to get worn down over years before I was finally like, okay, I'll do all the fucking things. What? I have to believe in God. Okay, I need a sponsor.

[Lily Padman]

Well, it's still all about acceptance. Acceptance that you have a real issue. Obviously that cliche or that acknowledgement is the hardest hurdle or problem is real. All of that is just to get to, yeah, I have a real problem. Because until then you're like, I have a little problem. I could probably just do with one

[Dax Shepard]

of these things, there's an arrogance, like, the normal people need all this, but I'm exceptional, so what will I need? Maybe three of these things.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. If any of them. And then there's to your point, like, have you seen that Leonardo DiCaprio? I love it so much. Where he's got that kind of face and he's holding a martini or whatever. The meme is like, how wine drunks look at regular drunks. It's like, oh, we drink wine.

[Lily Padman]

So there's always someone worse.

[Brandi Carlile]

There's always someone worse. And then there's that cliche of the rock bottom thing. It feels like only time I've seen people get sober and, like, stay sober. This is just a theory from a person who's not an addict, by the way, but is that the shit has to really hit the fan.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. The saying in AA is like, you won't change until your hair is on fire. Ye other great sayings which describes your father. Myself is like, you can have terminal uniqueness, which is, I'm so unique and I'm going to die because of it. Like, I'm so special and different and unique, and I'm going to die of that uniqueness, but I don't care. I'd rather be that unique.

[Brandi Carlile]

It's almost romantic.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yes. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And it feels like it has autonomy. You're in control and it's not. Yeah. You're just unwilling.

[Brandi Carlile]

He's sober now, though.

[Dax Shepard]

He is.

[Brandi Carlile]

Awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

For how long?

[Brandi Carlile]

A long time. 22 years.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, that's awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

I imagine we inherited the same thing, which I was just like, you know, it's kind of dorky because it's this thing my dad's super into. And then the spirituality that would accompany it. Right. It'd be like, course of miracles and all these other things that tie in with it. What kind of feelings were you having about that whole element, about the spiritual element, the AA and the slogans and all that stuff? Was it like, oh, my God, this is embarrassing, or.

[Brandi Carlile]

I was already more religious than AA when we entered into aa. I was already really into Jesus.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, and were your parents or just you? You found it on your own?

[Brandi Carlile]

It's very weird. My parents were. And my dad really was at a time, you know, he's an extremist, so he had extremist moments and is still an extremist. But I had my own path with it. Like, I have terminal uniqueness. So I almost died when I was five from meningitis. I just got told so many times that I had like a purpose and that. I was like saved for something. And we were all intense and we were all going to chur and so I was like talking to Jesus all the time. I had a whole relationship with this Jesus thing that was kind of independent. I would elect to go to vacation Bible school and awanas and youth group and stuff like that. I didn't have groups of friends based on it either. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You weren't like idolizing some older kid that was super into it or anything? No, it was just that maybe that near death experience. Your heart stopped a few times during that?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, yeah, I was in a coma and everything.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

I was just like riding shotgun with this Jesus character.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Brandi Carlile]

And kind of always have been through a lot of turmoil, ups and downs in my life and even things about me that would push me away from it and pull me back and recognize with a lot of gratitude that I have a very unique God perspective.

[Lily Padman]

And you still do.

[Brandi Carlile]

I still do, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

What age were you when baptism was supposed to happen?

[Brandi Carlile]

I think like 16.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so 16. You were supposed to get baptized.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And what happened?

[Brandi Carlile]

There was this kind of troubling church actually in our town. Big surprise. In the neighboring town, Black Diamond. They kind of looked for troubled kids that were in troubled home situations and stressed out, you know. And at this point, me and my brother already dropped out of high school and we were in trouble cleaning buses at the bus barn. And this church bus pulled up and told us to get in, picked up my brother and I didn't go.

[Dax Shepard]

They should have told you Steelhead were running.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. All they had to tell me, all

[Dax Shepard]

they had to tell me was Steelhead

[Brandi Carlile]

were running in the graveyard.

[Dax Shepard]

There's God at the church. Okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

I'm like, okay, I didn't look that bad. I got in the quarry guy's truck. No. But I didn't go. Event. Eventually I started going to the church. Found it compelling. Went to one of those camps. You know, they go to these camps. I don't think you guys have ever experienced these church camp things.

[Dax Shepard]

I've not been to one, but kids went to them where I grew up.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, a lot of friends went.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay. Deeply emotional and transformative for young kids. These camps, these pastors, they're cool. They know how to talk to young people. They know how to play on our guilt and our sense of rebelliousness. And so it compelled me to want to get baptized. I felt that there was just too much in the world that I couldn't handle without making my faith official.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

So I did the thing that you do in the evangelical church where the pastor, like, prays for everybody to close their eyes and then somebody comes forward. And I came forward, so I was gonna get baptized, and everybody's crying and clapping and it's all very charismatic. And you spend, like a week taking classes and doing Bible study and spending time with the pastor and everything. And I had done it. I did all those things. And when the day came around for my baptism at the church, the whole town, which is, like, not many people, and my parents, troubling as it all was, we were a unit. We were together. We were all a big dysfunctional family. I was out of the closet. I had a girlfriend, a short little haircut.

[Dax Shepard]

Can we do one second on that? Being openly gay where I'm from in a rural area in the 80s, it would have been really hard. Was it different in Washington?

[Brandi Carlile]

No, I was the only one I knew.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Where did you get the confidence to own that and not run from that at all?

[Brandi Carlile]

It's a really good question. It's just. For me, it's just always been such an obvious part of who I am. When I saw other gay people on TV, you know, like Ellen DeGeneres coming out in the 90s, when I saw gay artists like the Indigo Girls, and I was a huge Elton John fan, and I read all these biographies, and then there were movies that kind of touched on it. Boys on the side in Philadelphia. I recognized there was a community or a culture outside of my life.

[Dax Shepard]

That makes sense. Your heroes were often gay.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And all my friends were going through puberty and they wanted to make out with boys, and I wanted to make out with girls. Yeah, Yeah, I just did. I wanted to make out with them. I couldn't deny that.

[Lily Padman]

But people do. But they do all the time, so it's amazing.

[Dax Shepard]

I think when they're not in cities as well, they tend to even more.

[Brandi Carlile]

I just have always been pretty oblivious to just not being cool. You know, my favorite pants growing up were, like, cow print jeans. I didn't know that people were laughing at my obsessions or my eccentricity. And so I was like, yeah, I'm gay. Everybody knows I'm gay. They're not that into it. It's not a popular thing. I'm not taking a whole lot of shit for it, but I'm not being accepted either. And again, kind of oblivious to that. Just listening to the Indigo Girls, loving my life.

[Dax Shepard]

They probably don't mind that you're gay. They're nervous. Is every Girl gonna turn gay now in the school.

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't think I had that kind of influence, guys.

[Dax Shepard]

I think if I could turn a

[Brandi Carlile]

one girl gay in my school, that would have been awesome.

[Lily Padman]

You're like, I was trying, like, when

[Dax Shepard]

I talk to friends of mine who I adore, that live in the south, the way they'll tell me that, like, Disney's goal is to convince all kids to be trans, I'm like, I think you think that. Like, I do think you think that.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think. I think that's a real thought.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think similarly, like, I think a lot of people back then were just like, yeah, I don't care what she does, but she can influence my daughter.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. This idea of a bad influence in place.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

There may have been some of that. I mean, I remember hearing a lot of words like that thrown around town or in my family or in the 90s, like, oh, she's militant or she's hard, or, are you going to put it in our faces? These kind of. Or like, love the sin or hate the sin. We love you, but we don't accept your lifestyle kind of thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right, right.

[Brandi Carlile]

And that unfortunately, just had to be good enough for me back then. And I was absolutely fine with that.

[Dax Shepard]

You weren't sweating that too much?

[Brandi Carlile]

I mean, I wasn't. I knew it was a countercultural thing.

[Dax Shepard]

And your parents, they were cool, obviously?

[Brandi Carlile]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Not really. Same. Same situation.

[Brandi Carlile]

They weren't cool, but they weren't not cool. It was something everybody found kind of quite annoying about me, if I'm honest. But. But I have an inner world. And I also knew. I can't explain why, but I knew I had this life ahead of me that I was about to be a part of and that I was going to be okay. But I get to this church for this baptism after spending this time with the pastor, having this kind of position in my community that was complicated. I was loved but not accepted. And just everything was like, okay, but not great. So I get to this church, and the pastor takes me with this other kid that was gonna get, like, a much younger kid and asks us both, as a formality, do you practice witchcraft or homosexuality? And I just laughed. I just burst out laughing because I didn't understand why that question was pertinent, and I still don't, but that question seemed so ridiculous to me. And then it didn't take me long to realize that I had to answer yes to one of those things.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think he threw witchcraft in to make it seem less pointed or you think that's standard?

[Lily Padman]

They think that's equal. Those are the same.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm just curious if he's. Because he spent a week with you, he probably liked you.

[Brandi Carlile]

He liked me and he knew me. He knew my family.

[Dax Shepard]

And he's about to put you in a situation where he's going to deny you a baptism. I mean, imagine he's human. So did he just throw to try to make it say, hey, I gotta ask these standard questions? I think so.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I think until this very moment, I just accepted it as such.

[Dax Shepard]

It just seems like an insane. How would you find yourself all the way to this point, believing in witchcraft?

[Lily Padman]

But whatever.

[Brandi Carlile]

I have a great idea. I'm gonna ask her about witchcraft, and then the homosexuality thing won't be.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a throwaway.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Maybe the other kid was a warlock, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, maybe the kid. The boy was a warlock.

[Brandi Carlile]

He's getting you both with the easy question. So he very well could have been. He's standing there with his staff. Exactly. But I stopped laughing. I looked at him. I go, you know me. I go, you know I'm gay. Everyone knows I'm gay. I'm the gay person in town. I'm like the town gay. You know, that didn't seem like that was a disqualifying factor. And I'm in a swimsuit and my parents are right there. What are you talking about?

[Lily Padman]

Ye.

[Brandi Carlile]

And he was like, you can't be baptized today. And I had to leave the church in front of all those people sitting there, run back to my house.

[Dax Shepard]

How did you take that? Were you heartbroken by that or were you angered by it at that point?

[Brandi Carlile]

Just humiliated.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

So embarrassed, which is my nightmare. I cannot be embarrassed. It was about the most embarrassed I've ever been in my life to this day. And my parents came home, and a couple of their close friends, like Ron and Diane, like, they all came to the house and it was. Suddenly I was loved and accepted. It was this weird thing that happened where then Pastor dude was the problem and the whole town got mad on my behalf.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, that's beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

That might be scarier for me, though. I don't know if I want the whole town to hate me or love me. I'm afraid of both.

[Brandi Carlile]

I could see why, because they might know what you're doing.

[Dax Shepard]

I'd just be like, oh, I can't live up to love. I can live up to disappointing you, but living up to love, that's the whole trajectory of this experience of even getting Famous. That's still an issue. I'm afraid for you to love me because I'm gonna disappoint you, I think more than ever.

[Brandi Carlile]

That is a valid stressor. I can see why you feel that way, even without the issues.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I already had those. And then there's some proof now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Absolutely. That turned that around for me in a really interesting way.

[Dax Shepard]

So did they. Can the pastor, they said, like, you gotta get with the program and baptize.

[Brandi Carlile]

No, that pastor called me every day for a long time trying to apologize. I just. I think it was just upsetting for everyone. You know, religion and dogma. It's so oppressive.

[Dax Shepard]

So did you just lose your desire to even get baptized at that point? Like, fuck that. I have my relationship with Jesus and I'm good.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Until much, much later in life. It set me free in a way, I think made a lot of people that thought that gay people were militant and insisting on these rights that they're going to take from them realize we really are kind of in trouble out here. We really are vulnerable in a lot of different ways, and I don't think they're realized.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You were just, like, excommunicated from your

[Brandi Carlile]

church in front of them all.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Well, that's a lovely end, though, to that terrible story that they all had.

[Brandi Carlile]

I think so. That's the way I look at it.

[Dax Shepard]

Something about it is the best part of us as humans, which is, like, we don't enjoy seeing someone get shit

[Brandi Carlile]

on or excluded almost no matter what.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And it can change us on a dime in a profound way more than had you bitched out the guy in front of everyone and won and won something.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Did I read correctly that you wouldn't get married until lgbtq?

[Dax Shepard]

Until the gay is good.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had a lot of gay friends. And my analogy was. And this is a crazy analogy, but it feels very appropriate. If half my friends were black and I lived in the 30s, I wouldn't host a party in the front of the bus. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It would feel insane. And I was like, well, we're gonna invite, like, eight of our gay friends to watch us have this. Right. They don't have. And celebrate us. Feels bonkers.

[Brandi Carlile]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Just on that alone. Not like a big global. Just like, this is wrong for me to do this and invite friends that can't do it to enjoy it for me. It feels crazy.

[Lily Padman]

It's pretty good.

[Brandi Carlile]

It's pretty great.

[Dax Shepard]

But then we Were stuck in engagement purgatory for, like, I want to say, three years, to the point where people will be like, you're still engaged. Like, they're getting nervous for us. Right. Like, you can only be engaged for so long.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, this is a bad sign.

[Dax Shepard]

Nervous. And it's like, oh, this is convenient. You have a cause now.

[Brandi Carlile]

What time you for your guy's idea?

[Lily Padman]

You should go to the festival. You definitely.

[Brandi Carlile]

You should go to the festival. I really do think it's right for you. But also, that's actually amazing that that's going to always be a part of your legacy. And being able to get married changed my life. And when I couldn't get married, it was a major drain on my life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Can we talk about that a little bit? Because I do think we have a friend group and there's something adjacent happening where there's some religious people who are like, well, no, you can be together, but, like, marriage is a different thing. What can you share about why that's

[Brandi Carlile]

not okay, about why it's not okay to deny that basic civil right? Well, I just don't think that any one religion has the monopoly on two people choosing to spend the rest of their lives together under equal protection of the law. And guess what? Some of us are quite religious. It was kind of wild, actually, because my weddings. We had a lot of weddings. My wife is from London, so we got married in a little church called the Church of the Good shepherd in Wareham, Massachusetts.

[Dax Shepard]

And her last name is Shepherd.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, Shepherd. Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Isn't that wild?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's great.

[Brandi Carlile]

And then we had a civil partnership in England because they didn't have marriage there yet. It was just a civil partnership. So it was kind of weird because we never had a civil partnership here. We had marriage first, and then England for years had civil partnerships and then marriage quite a lot later. So we had a civil partnership there. And the deal was you couldn't have any mention of faith, religious music. I don't even think you could wear, like, a cross. Like, you had to have a totally secular union, which was an interesting thing because it gave me this perspective of understanding how it can really be viewed through a religious lens. But really that's all in the eye of the beholder. That's all in how you feel about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, it just really speaks to, like, little groups of humans, do little weird things, and they have little weird rules so that they're separate from this group. So it's like, this one has to be secular. Doesn't make much sense. This One can't have. That doesn't make much sense. Yeah, they overlap in these little segments of life and you're going to deal with a civil union and that thing at the same time, I think just

[Brandi Carlile]

normal people out like living their lives and stuff just didn't realize how many things it excluded us from. We had all kinds of issues.

[Dax Shepard]

You couldn't visit her in the hospital. Right. Like that would be one in a lot of cases.

[Brandi Carlile]

That was a really heartbreaking and happened to a lot of older couples or just homeownership, like going back to somebody's family instead of their long term spouse, things like that. But then immigration as well. We couldn't get a green card or vouch for citizenship or anything like that because there was no spousal allocation for me to be able to do that. So we had to renew our visa every couple of years and panic every time we traveled internationally. Get detained at the airport. We were always detained at the airport. And when that changed, it was just immediate. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is what everybody else. You just get to walk up to the counter and say we're married everywhere.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't even think about it. I don't think I've gotten some right. Which I have.

[Lily Padman]

That's the problem when people are against it. They don't recognize the benefits of it that they're just inherently getting.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's a good point.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you like Sedaris? David Sedaris, the writer?

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't know him. Help me.

[Lily Padman]

He's hit me.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, congratulations. You just got introduced to the greatest living writer.

[Lily Padman]

That's incredible.

[Dax Shepard]

He's hysterical. But anyways, I was just reading a short story two nights ago and it was about when it got passed. He has a very interesting. He's older. He's 60, probably four now. And he has opinions that are of his era in a fun way and he's very open about them. He was in England and he collects trash in the morning at their house in England. That's like his routine. And he brought with him his iPad because he knew that the Supreme Court announcement was going to happen. And then he lost signal for three hours. Then he got to a cafe and he opened it up and he saw it and he said, I don't think any gay human being in America could have not read that and just felt emotion.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But then his whole process is like him going home to his partner of 20 years and telling Hugh that they got to get married because there's a great tax benefit and he Was like, I'm not getting married. That's for fucking straight people. I don't give a fuck about the tax benefit.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's the whole thing.

[Dax Shepard]

He censored him for, like, a month to finally get him to concede. And he said the actual proposal was, like, him rolling out the tax benefits, bludgeoning him, and then Hugh saying, fine, if it'll make you shut up, I'll do it.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's marriage. That's hot.

[Dax Shepard]

Walking to his room, going like, well, that's not the wedding proposal, I imagine, but here we are. And, like, doesn't want to be called husband. You know, like this. There's a whole rejection.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's a whole thing. How old are they?

[Dax Shepard]

Like, 64, 5.

[Brandi Carlile]

I get it. I respect that. I really respect that.

[Dax Shepard]

He hates the word queer. You know, like, he's got a lot of things.

[Brandi Carlile]

I know those people. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And he's fun to talk to and he's earned every single opinion he has. But, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, I love those folks. Yeah. Those are my, well, ancestors in a way. Like, those are my elders. Man. I've got so much respect for the older gays.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. He grew up in a time where he had to leave North Carolina and move to New York City. This is his only shot.

[Brandi Carlile]

Had to.

[Dax Shepard]

Had to. And he's almost unsympathetic when he has people ask him questions like, what should I do? I'm in this town. Move. Move to.

[Brandi Carlile]

They're gritty those older days. They're so gritty, it's brutal.

[Lily Padman]

And they're like, you guys don't even know what AIDS is.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, my gosh. Exactly. Yeah, they're pissed. And, yeah, in some ways, like they have, Right?

[Lily Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair experts, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking. Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your gas gauge before hitting the road. You genuinely thought you could make it. You were wrong. That's a very long stretch of highway where you learned exactly how far fumes can take you, and it's not far enough. Yeah. Checking first is an excellent plan. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need need it, add an Allstate roadside plan. Today you're in good hands with Allstate Potential savings. Vary insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club Incorporated and Allstate Affiliate thank you to our presenting sponsor. Grubhub. Gold Days is here, which feels like a dangerous time to be ordering food because suddenly everyone in your life is very interested in what you're eating. Grubhub plus members are getting nonstop savings all month long. And if you're not a member yet, you can join for just 99 cents a month for six months. That's a 90% discount off of the usual price. Grubhub plus membership, auto renews and terms apply. Sign up now in the app [e-mail] plus gold. We are supported by Skims. You know, I feel like at this point everyone knows when they drop something new. It's kind of a big deal.

[Lily Padman]

It really is. And I've talked about this before, but my biggest thing with underwear is always comfort versus actually feeling cute. It's very hard to get both. You usually don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. It's a trade off.

[Lily Padman]

You're either comfortable and not really thrilled, or you look good and you're counting down the minutes till you can just take that baby off. But Skim solved that. Their new Everyday Cotton collection is the perfect balance.

[Dax Shepard]

So what is it about the line that you really love? What are you actually reaching for the most?

[Lily Padman]

Okay, so in the Everyday Cotton Collection, I really like the Everyday Cotton bra. It is very comfortable, but very sleek and durable too. It is not like some bras. You throw them in the wash, say goodbye, they're disintegrating.

[Dax Shepard]

They'll never be the same.

[Lily Padman]

Yes, this is not like that. Skims has nailed the products. They're just great.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, look, if it's comfortable and it fits well and you don't have to think about it, that's kind of the whole goal.

[Lily Padman]

Shop Everyday Cotton and all my favorite bras and [e-mail] after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.

[Dax Shepard]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. So May is Mental health awareness month. And I've been thinking about how we all have those things that keep us up at night.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And it's so easy to think you have it all figured out on your own.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? But the truth is, no one has all the answers. Having someone with you, someone to actually listen and understand, it makes a real difference.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And that's what therapy can be. It's not about having everything figured out. It's about having unbiased support when you're feeling overwhelmed. Stuck or just unsure.

[Dax Shepard]

And betterhelp makes it easier to find that support. They match you with a licensed therapist based on your needs. With over 30,000 therapists, they usually get it right the first time. And if not, you can switch anytime.

[Lily Padman]

I have therapy tomorrow. I'm really looking forward to it. I have nothing to talk about and it's going to be the best session ever. You just get to the root of things.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Dax that's betterhelp.com Dax. Okay. So mom, was she the breadwinner? I'm imagining you guys were probably scraping by if they were super young. Dad had his problem in mom. What did she do?

[Brandi Carlile]

Mom was a stay at home mom.

[Dax Shepard]

How did this work?

[Brandi Carlile]

There wasn't a lot of bread to be land. My dad, when he couldn't be a Boeing anymore, he learned how to do some construction. And a guy helped out our family helped my dad get some tools. My dad's actually really good at construction. He still comes out and does stuff at my house all the time and stuff. And just within that gig, you just get jobs when you can get them and when you don't have them, you don't have money. And that's just how you roll. So we moved a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I noticed maybe seven places I read or something in some period of time.

[Brandi Carlile]

Me and my brothers got in an argument about this last, believe me. But it's 14 places in 17 years.

[Dax Shepard]

Here we go.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Brandi Carlile]

But it didn't seem that strange at all at the time. There were consistent things, you know, like I had the same cat that we took to every place that we moved to. I shared a room with my little sister. I'm really tight with my brother and sister and I'm really tight with my parents. We're just a chaotic unit of dysfunction that just deeply loves each other. We sometimes disagree about history and how it played out and what we're allowed to talk about, what we aren't. But I do believe that my life is my story. And we'll just talk it through. We'll continue to talk it through like we always have.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Did you covet money? Or was the town so small that even though you were broke, was everyone broke? Or did you covet money and think, how the fuck am I gonna get. I gotta get money?

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

I thought about money a lot. Yeah, I still do.

[Dax Shepard]

Me too.

[Brandi Carlile]

I'm a Coyote? Yeah. Coyote People?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What are you? Old Coyote People is what we're called.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Oh, tell me more like a coyote. It cannot help but exist for me. You know what I mean? And like, I'm a coyote for achievement. I'm a Coyote for success. I'm a coyote for stability and money. And I do my best. I've got all kinds of philosophies around not hoarding money and things like that, because I know where the addiction lies. But I used to lay in my bed and dream about all the things I could buy everybody if I got money. And they were dumb things like four wheelers.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. No, those are great things.

[Brandi Carlile]

And like downriggers and crap like that. Once I very first started making money, I did crazy, crazy stuff with it. I took out loans, like I would finance four wheelers and get like my dad and brother a four wheeler. Just new money stuff.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I wish I were one of your family members. I love four wheelers. I have a lot, especially free one.

[Brandi Carlile]

I have a four wheeler problem.

[Dax Shepard]

But you started singing with mom at 8 years old?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So mom was a singer, I presume?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, my mom's a really good country singer to this day. She can still sing really good, like Tammy Wynette. Her dad died of ALS really young. He died at like 5. And that was tough for my mom. Cause she was really young, needed a dad. Yep. And he was special. So he was gonna be a pretty important patriarchal figure in our family that we all could have really used. And so he left us. And one thing he did was sing country music and play the spoons and sing in a country band with his family.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he from Washington?

[Brandi Carlile]

He was from Minnesota.

[Dax Shepard]

Doesn't make much more sense. I was hoping from the south, you

[Brandi Carlile]

know, but you can't count out the North.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Or the West. That's what we call it. Country and western where I come from. Because we just belong to the South. That's true. And so she, in a way, was able to continue that legacy. Pass that on to me and my brother and my sister. We all do music now.

[Dax Shepard]

And who was she singing with that she got to get you up on stage to sing with her.

[Brandi Carlile]

There was like a little community theater in town called the Northwest Grand Ole Opry that I dream about all the time. Actually, we were acting out the Grand Ole Opry. You had like an announcer. There was like a little Jimmy Dickens mini Pearl thing happening.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's great.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And so she would mostly sing with us. But even though she's a Good singer. I always got the idea that it was really more about us than her at a certain point. And she thought it was really cool that her kids could sing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. You have kids?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, I got kids.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. They do shit. And you're like, oh, my God.

[Brandi Carlile]

They do shit. And you're like, oh, my God. I've picked a song to play for you later.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I can't wait.

[Brandi Carlile]

Based on this because of the ages, tell me now, how old?

[Dax Shepard]

11 and 13. And you're 8 and 12?

[Brandi Carlile]

8 and 11. Almost 12.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So similar. Both girls? Yeah, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Both girls, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Yours are both girls also.

[Brandi Carlile]

Mine are both girls.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And do they write four weeks?

[Brandi Carlile]

They do. They both have Polarises.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay, good.

[Brandi Carlile]

Putting them on four wheelers is something I'm really happy I did. And an arranger, because when they get to driving.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, right.

[Brandi Carlile]

Just that coordination and understand she should

[Lily Padman]

really be hanging out.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. My girls ride dirt bikes and they drive razors and golf carts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. You start singing now without mom by what age? 15. Ish.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Me and my best friend Amber, we started singing background vocals for her dad, who was an Elvis impersonator. And then we would a song or two in the set by ourselves. And then we learned a couple of Indigo Girl songs and started trying to teach her harmony, which my brother had taught me. And I was singing in another band with my brother, and things just kind of turned into me being in multiple bands and having a lot going on.

[Dax Shepard]

You got obsessed with Elton John. Taught yourself piano. Taught yourself guitar.

[Brandi Carlile]

Guitar. When I was around 17. 16. 17.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. And when do you move into Seattle and meet Tim and Phil?

[Brandi Carlile]

I never moved to Seattle.

[Dax Shepard]

You didn't?

[Brandi Carlile]

In fact, to this day, I live where I. But I did meet them in a studio when I was about 18, 19. I got some money together from neighbors. Coyote out there doing the Coyote things, got some money together to go make a cd, and ended up in a. There's a recording studio there called London Bridge and a guy called Rick Parasher. And this recording studio is very special. This is where Pearl Jam 10 was done. Temple of the Dog, all the Alice in Chain stuff with Kelly Gray. And Rick Parasher was involved in all that. And he was the producer of those things. So this felt to me like the center of Seattle grunge. But I couldn't afford, like, the big studio or the big producer. So, like, an assistant engineer let me record with him upstairs in, like, a

[Dax Shepard]

little kind of satellite room.

[Brandi Carlile]

And it wasn't even really. It was just a room. But Pro Tools was just coming out so you could do that without a big console. And Tim and Phil were downstairs working with the big producer in the big room in their own band called the Fighting Machinists. They were like legends in Seattle. They had just gotten the biggest record deal anybody in Seattle had ever gotten, and they were gonna be. And I just waltzed down there and again, totally oblivious to what I looked like and where I came from, and

[Dax Shepard]

just was like, you guys like cow pants?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. What do you think?

[Dax Shepard]

Enjoy.

[Brandi Carlile]

Leave this all behind.

[Dax Shepard]

Come with me. Put on your bib and pull up a plate.

[Brandi Carlile]

Let's go.

[Lily Padman]

I guess that's the beauty of moving a lot. You just have to, like, put yourself out there. You have to talk to people. You can't really be shy. You don't have time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. If you're sitting at home, no one's ever gonna knock at your door and go, hey, do you want this spectacular?

[Brandi Carlile]

No one ever is. And you realize you gotta make opportunities every chance you get. And I was working as a barista at a coffee stand, so I got a lot of social skills that way. I was working at a grocery store as a sample lady.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, a sample lady. What was your sample?

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, every day it was different. It was awesome job, actually. And then I was working part time as a roofing laborer.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I. I also was a roofer.

[Brandi Carlile]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's quite a job.

[Brandi Carlile]

Same person.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

I think my back is still tear off or tear off and clean up. And sometime I would throw down the tar paper if it was not slatted roof.

[Dax Shepard]

Never got to throw any bundles on.

[Brandi Carlile]

You didn't get promoted there.

[Dax Shepard]

I will say, though, I was just talking about this with a neighbor in Nashville because he's a builder. And we were kind of going through the strata of people in the trades, and I was like, look, you've been doing this for 35 years. Am I not crazy? We are the worst, right? Roofers are just like worst prison records. Least likely to show up. And he goes, oh, by far, roofers. They are the most fucked up in the trades. Oh, you gotta shit on a roof. In Detroit, we would do rubber roof. You'd be five, six stories up. There's no. Even if you went down the ladder, there's nowhere in Detroit to go use the bathroom. So, yeah, guys are shitting in buckets on the roof. Everyone's hammered, people aren't showing up. I mean, yeah, it was a mess.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. So imagine being like the lowest rung on that ladder where you're literally, you're just cleaning up the mess. It was like that. And when you're on a roof and you're cleaning up roofing material, you're never lifting anything properly because you're always trying to keep from falling down.

[Dax Shepard]

You're in a crazy angle to hold this.

[Brandi Carlile]

So I think my back is permanent. Probably from it.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Your whole day is spent figuring out how to do this ergonomically so you don't get hurt. Because, yeah, you're on an angle that's different from the angle you mastered yesterday. And you're prying these nails out with this weird shovel.

[Brandi Carlile]

This has gotten so niche, like, no one cares.

[Dax Shepard]

Who cares? You and I can. We know six other roofers out there.

[Lily Padman]

Six roofers as our audience.

[Dax Shepard]

The six roofers who are sober enough to comprehend this right now are enjoying it.

[Brandi Carlile]

They're like, to our paper,

[Dax Shepard]

how do you though? Woo. Tim and Phil, like, how do you go from. They're the hot shit in town. You're upstairs in the attic recording on Pro Tools. How do you convince them we should work together?

[Brandi Carlile]

Honestly, I don't know. Because every show they had was sold out. I saw them play like, they were unbelievable. They were very nice. I almost couldn't believe how nice they were to me because they were so popular and they were so good looking. I had nothing to offer these two beautiful boys in their 20s. And I was just like, you want to play on my record?

[Dax Shepard]

You know, how's this sound?

[Brandi Carlile]

And they just did it for no reason. The way I had things going was I would busk whenever I could in the daytime at Pike Place Market. And I had these residencies at night in clubs and restaurants all over Seattle. I'm talking about Duke's Clam Chowder House, Bill Madine's Ravioli Station and Ballard. The Dubliner Bar and the Ballard Firehouse.

[Dax Shepard]

People are coming for the entree first. And then there's music.

[Brandi Carlile]

They have no idea they're gonna get music.

[Dax Shepard]

Right?

[Brandi Carlile]

But I did have this little PA series that I would go and I would go, hey, listen, I got two speakers. I know you don't have music here, but if you let me come in on Tuesday nights, give me like four Tuesday nights. If on the fifth Tuesday night it's like twice as busy in here that you gotta start paying me nice. And then I would get my Tuesday night at Salty Son Alkai. So I basically had all these residencies going and then I would get down on my breaks and sit with all these people at their tables and have a beer and say, give me your phone number, give me your phone number. And then once a month, I'd call them and I'd give, hey, I got a big show at the Tractor Tavern. Might be some record labels there. Will you pack it out for me? And all these people would come, and then I'd have packed shows. And so everybody was like, what's going on with this girl?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. You really networked your way into that.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's how we ended up getting a record deal, and that's how I ended up getting the twins to join the band. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't you marvel. I'll be just reflecting on the odds against everyone to make it in any of these chosen show business careers. And the thing I constantly come back to is like, yeah, it'd be great if talent got you there. The amount of hustle it takes, I think, is a little misleading. When you're on the outside, you think like, oh, if I'm Bieber and I'm a genius at 13, I'll become famous. And really, it's like, you gotta fucking call random people you played in front of at a restaurant.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And it's really the stuff we've been talking about this whole time that gives you that acumen, like, the skills to do that. You can't fit fake being a Coyote. You can't fake coming from nothing. You can't fake the charisma that it takes to rise like a phoenix out of really difficult situations.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So it does start happening pretty darn quick for you, I would say. Right. Because you've dropped out of high school. That ship sailed.

[Brandi Carlile]

That was a bummer.

[Lily Padman]

We're not gonna. I do wanna pause there for two minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

We're not gonna pursue anything academically.

[Lily Padman]

We're just like, I'm done.

[Dax Shepard]

You had adhd, right? You were diagnosed as adhd?

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't think so. You know something? My folks. The whole thing is a bit inaccurate in terms of, like, we're inaccurate historians. I mean, I'm sure there was a doctor or two that was like, you have adhd? And now that everybody understands it so well, I'm sure there's some truth to that, but I just didn't do well in school, and I just couldn't keep myself there.

[Dax Shepard]

You were restless there, and I felt

[Brandi Carlile]

too grown up to be there, I guess, because I had all these jobs and all these goals and these plans, and I was working it, and I would be working and getting myself placed, and then I would go to school and have to raise my hand to use the bathroom.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

I was like, I don't belong here. I'm an adult. I just felt like I can't be here. I'm failing at everything. I need to go somewhere. I'm not gonna fail. That's what it was.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your parents were like, all right, I guess that's what's gonna happen. They didn't really have a choice.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Me and my brother were just a year apart. We just stopped going and just started working.

[Lily Padman]

Wow. I just wonder, Dax, if the girls were like, we're not going to school anymore.

[Dax Shepard]

Of all the people I know successful in working, I don't think any of them went to Harvard. None of them did the right thing. I barely graduated high school. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I think if you. If you want it, you're going to get it. And if you don't want it, you're not going to get it anyways. I can send you any school that'll take you. It's not going to give you that. I hate to say that I feel that way, but I kind of do.

[Lily Padman]

I mean, it worked out.

[Brandi Carlile]

If my girls came to me and said, we don't want to go to a conventional high school, I have the time and the means to help with an alternative path. My parents, they both dropped out of high school. No one in our family graduated. Not my brother, not my sister, not me, not my folks.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. Your kids could be the first.

[Brandi Carlile]

So my kids could be the first. They will do it maybe a different way, though. I don't see my kids going to a conventional high school and doing that. I don't understand how to speak that language. So I think there will be alternative forms of their exit from their education.

[Dax Shepard]

But suffice to say, by 2005, you record Brandi Carlisle. That's the first album. So you would have been 24 when it came out.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, I think I recorded it in maybe 2002, 2003.

[Dax Shepard]

So pretty young 24. And that works like Rolling Stone reviews it beautifully. They put you on the top 10 artists to watch in 2005. After all that grind, did you have a hard time trusting the positive things that were coming?

[Brandi Carlile]

No, I just loved it. I was so. Honestly, I was happy before. I've always felt like a famous singer.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

I've always felt like that. So.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you're like, oh, the world caught up.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

I'm more gun shy now than I was back then.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me, what do you think has caused that?

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't know. Maybe just getting older, being middle aged, wondering about relevance, the Internet, the way people talk about each other, how easy it is to surmise that someone is something that they're not. And those kinds of things to make me question whether this is the gig for me.

[Dax Shepard]

It's weird though, isn't it? It's like counter to what you would think. If you would ask me at like 15, let's say you did all this stuff, what would you feel like at the end of it? Be like, oh, I'd feel so confident. But, yeah, I was in this movie that people give me a lot of compliments for Idiocracy. And I played a role that I know I wouldn't do today. Like, it would be too big of a swing. I would be afraid to go try to do what I did in that movie.

[Brandi Carlile]

You're saying that you wouldn't do it today?

[Dax Shepard]

You offer me that role today, I would be like, I can't do it. Yeah, I'd be too scared. But isn't that what we're saying?

[Brandi Carlile]

There's like, that's what's so weird thing about Idiocracy, too. That. Yeah, I could see why. Yeah, I could see why.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Just it was a huge swing and I didn't mind at all taking it out. And I didn't give a fuck if anyone thought it was embarrassing or not.

[Brandi Carlile]

Right, right, right.

[Dax Shepard]

And now I would. And it would be harder for me to do it now. And that's opposite of what I would have expected.

[Brandi Carlile]

Is it because we don't want to be embarrassed in front of our kids? Is it because we're like becoming legacy conscious as well? We get older.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I think those are really good guesses. And for probably a lot of people, that stuff is going on. I don't think I'm concerned about legacy. I think what it is is in some weird way, I was inoculated by ignorance and naivete and didn't even consider, what if I look ridiculous doing it? What if this is embarrassing? Those thoughts never crossed my mind. And now they would.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, that sucks. We only get that. I think for I'm not as good

[Dax Shepard]

as I thought I was. That's part of it, right? Like, I used to think I was so good. Now I think I'm fine. In some weird way, I'm more confident. But also it's like I tapped down the bottom and the top.

[Brandi Carlile]

What has changed that? Do you think you've let some of the Outside in a little bit.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Or I've seen stuff I did that I thought was one thing. And then upon reflection or years away, I'm like, oh, it wasn't as good as I thought it was, or I wasn't as good in it. I've more come to the feeling like, yeah, I'm fine. I can do this job. Not. I'm going to be Will Ferrell. At that point, I was like, I'm going to be Will Ferrell.

[Lily Padman]

No, you have stuff to lose now. That's really what it is. You get to an age where you have stuff to lose. When you're starting out, there's nothing to lose. You to put yourself out there because it's like, well, what's the worst that can happen?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I didn't have a mortgage when I did that.

[Lily Padman]

Exactly. And you have a reputation. You have children. There's a ton to lose, actually.

[Brandi Carlile]

Exactly. And you're a little bit dumb.

[Lily Padman]

The beauty of not having a fully developed frontal lobe, actually, it helps you.

[Brandi Carlile]

I put out album after album after album without ever even knowing when the Grammys were. And now I'm thinking about the Grammys before I write the song. I don't want it to be that way. And I push it out. I do it, I get rid of it, and I do the thing. And I. But two not know the things. I know I made an album with Elton John. Elton's incredibly encyclopedic about numbers and the charts and how things do. And he knows everything and I knew nothing. He would call me and say, hey, the record is coming out at this. Or it got this, or this thing is gonna happen. And I'd be like, oh, my God, tell me about that. Like, what is that? Yeah. Once you learn too much about how you're being received, it can definitely go in. But I think there's ways we can erase. I don't know how, but I think there are ways we can get rid of the knowledge.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, because we have examples of people who have avoided that, so minimally. There are mentors that exist that seem to have never succumbed to that pressure. But, yes, if you've never been nominated for a Grammy, who cares? Once you get nominated for one, now we know you can do it. It's yours to not do.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what fucks you up, I think,

[Brandi Carlile]

is like, yours to not do in the climb.

[Lily Padman]

We talk about this all the time. Counterintuitive, intuitive. But it's so much scarier once you're at the top of the Mountain climbing. The mountain is hard. And when you're in it, you're like, all I want to do is be up there. But then when you're up there, there's one way to go.

[Dax Shepard]

There's one way to go.

[Lily Padman]

Scary up there, nowhere to go.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And you're more self conscious because of it.

[Brandi Carlile]

You're right. Yeah. And they say, what's that Miley lyric? There's always going to be another mountain. Yeah, I need another mountain. I need another mountain all the time. That's my addiction.

[Lily Padman]

They're there.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. In 07, the story comes out. How did you end up working with T Bone Burnett? And is he as magical as I'm led to believe from film and television? He seems very special.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, he is very special. When I started recording our songs, me and the Twins songs, we had like 40 something songs, 42 songs maybe over the course of doing these residencies together and working together and practicing and who we met first was Rick Rubin.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

And Rick Rubin tried to sign us to American Recordings, but there was a lot going on. Like the Johnny Cash stuff had just come out and he was moving and a bunch of record label stuff didn't work out. But what he told me was, these are your good songs and these are your not so good songs. He divided them in half. And he goes, this is a really great record. This is something you can record if you need to make money and find a way to get yourself through the next couple of years until I get settled in at my new record label.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you agree with that assessment?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Then I was really open to suggestion at that point for. From him. So I divided those things in half and I went in and recorded what became Brandi Carlisle as my own collection basically of demos for me to sell at my shows. And then later on I got the record deal in 2005. And they said, well, okay, we know your good record is the story. This album has mythical yet to come out. Let's put this other one out in the meantime, while you kind of get your chops and get out on the road and get good. So we did, and that became Brandi Carlisle. That was my not good songs. That was my album of rejects.

[Dax Shepard]

And you toured for two years on that, right?

[Brandi Carlile]

For like several years on that. And then it never really worked out with Rick Rubin. And I met T Bone Burnett in a hotel bar in New York City and we got to talking about country music. We hit it off and we agreed that we were gonna leave the country and make a record together. In some other country, that record was the story. And the whole thing is recorded live in one room with one band to

[Dax Shepard]

tape 11 days or something. Something really quick.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, you can't get T Bone Burnett to stay longer than that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he moves quick.

[Brandi Carlile]

He moves quick.

[Dax Shepard]

What was going on with live was a departure from what was being done normally, right?

[Brandi Carlile]

It was, but it was a recent departure because like I was saying, Pro Tools was only kind of new. And there were certain editing techniques that are second nature today that you hear all the time without realizing you're hearing them, that we didn't really have refined or have a lot of access to back in that exact moment. You couldn't have used Autotune or Melodyne and not heard it. You'd hear it. It wasn't as finessed as it is now. Compression, too. Everything was in a time when you're hearing, like really unaltered human voice and not a lot of I.

[Dax Shepard]

Your voice cracks on one of the tracks, right?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, on the story in a significant way. And a lot of times I'm playing guitar and singing at the same time. And those things can't be separated in those recordings. And so we recorded to tape, which is another whole other cumbersome but beautiful sounding way to record and to edit on.

[Dax Shepard]

It is so much more time consuming.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. They actually splice it and cut it. So you have to make big decisions about accepting imperfect.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So how about that moment with the voice when you first heard it? Were you like, we can't have that. Or were you like, oh, fuck. This somehow has a magic to it.

[Brandi Carlile]

It felt and sounded so wild to me when I made that sound that I almost laughed and just ended the take for everyone. But I knew that everybody was playing so good and I didn't want to throw it for the drummer. And so I just sang through it thinking, well, if they love the first half, they can splice a second half on from another one. When I ended the song, Tebow Burnett comes running through and you know, he doesn't run. Yeah, but he. And he throws the door open on my Isopod and he goes, that was the moment of the record. That was the moment of the record.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I go, what are you talking about? He goes, wait till you hear it.

[Lily Padman]

Wow. Powerful.

[Dax Shepard]

That's cool.

[Lily Padman]

That is so cool.

[Dax Shepard]

So that album, the story really changes kind of everything. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

No, at the time it really didn't. I think it didn't break the top anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you get songs on Grey's Anatomy

[Brandi Carlile]

that started so Grey's Anatomy started showing up really early, like during the Brandi Carlisle thing. And this sort of relationship happened with them where they found that my music was going well with their programming. So good. I even recorded a couple of songs just for them. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. In one season they had three of your songs. And then their musical episode, they sang one of your songs.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

The story. It helped everything. It helped pay the bills. It helped our band. And what an iconic show.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God. I was amazing. Obsessed with it. And specifically the music. Just picking out every song.

[Dax Shepard]

They were like Maureen becomes eclectic. They were like a gateway to great music.

[Brandi Carlile]

Exactly like Moyne becomes a clergy. Exactly. Like Garden State.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

There was this kind of really cool thing that happened around Sync Licensing at that time, and I just happened to be a part of it. I still feel the ripple effect of that. And I love that show.

[Lily Padman]

It's a great show.

[Dax Shepard]

What size venues were you playing on that? Two years of touring with Brandon Carlisle. Theaters, dude. Tiny bars.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, if I got to open for somebody, theaters, but a lot of bars and clubs and just kind of standing rooms and stuff like that. Loved it.

[Dax Shepard]

Saw all kinds of fun stuff. I bet.

[Brandi Carlile]

Saw all kinds of fun stuff. I never got on a plane Till I was 17 years old, so I saw the whole country with these two twins in my own van. We should take our kids to more bars. Right? That actually teaches how to get by in a bar.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, if you can survive there.

[Brandi Carlile]

Litmus test for the whole world.

[Lily Padman]

So true.

[Dax Shepard]

Every weekend with my father, spend the entire day at the Dirt Dirty Duck saloon from like 8am till 2 in the morning.

[Brandi Carlile]

Dirty Duck.

[Dax Shepard]

That was his spot.

[Brandi Carlile]

Tell me you met Doug the Dirty Duck. Oh, duck.

[Dax Shepard]

It had a duck.

[Brandi Carlile]

I gotta know who Doug is.

[Dax Shepard]

Dirty Doug probably was owned by a Dirty Doug.

[Brandi Carlile]

For sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so when you finally got to work with Rick Rubin, how was that? That could go either way. If he met you years before and saved this, and these are great, this could go either way.

[Brandi Carlile]

I found it tense.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm intimidated by him a bit. We interviewed him and I was like, he's got some mojo. But the mojo for me is I

[Brandi Carlile]

think I found it like that. If I had to really unpack it on the spot, I would say that him being the deciding force between whether something was great or not great really rubbed me the wrong way.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

He actually used the word great all the time. And I felt that that word was subjective. I was young enough to where the punk rock artist in me needed that word to be subjective. And I needed to be the Determining factor between what I was making and whether it was great or not great. And I think if he were sitting here today, he would probably giggle and tell you that that's probably what he doesn't like about working with young artists, is that they have to be the determining factor of great or not great. At the same time, I wouldn't take that from myself for anything. So we butted heads.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Really bad. And then later on in life came back together and now are very good friends.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's long.

[Brandi Carlile]

But I still think he's a complicated man and tough to work with on that level.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I only hung around there for a minute when the Avetts were recording there because I'm friends with Seth.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, cool. I'm really good friends with those guys, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I noticed you guys have played together. But if I had to really isolate, like, what insecurity in me is triggered by him.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, tell me.

[Dax Shepard]

There's something almost religious about him, and I'm like, oh, I'll never grasp his thing that he's got, and therefore he doesn't value me. You know, whatever. He's got some toehold on something I don't even believe in. And so there's a chasm between us. And he'll never, never think I'm special, and I'll never think he understands me. I don't know.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, that's the same thing. His, like, serenity and his knowledge of what's great and not great is almost religious.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like an aggressive serenity.

[Brandi Carlile]

Dude. Dude. That's it. That is it. It's an aggressive serenity.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

He just also.

[Dax Shepard]

He knows himself, and I think the dude's a genius. Let me be clear as day. I think the dude's a genius. Dude's a genius.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, he knows himself very well. In the middle of our interview, he was like, it's cold in here. We need to turn down the. He didn't say, can we?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Lily Padman]

We were like, oh, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And then it, like, really rattled us for the next, like, however many minutes happened. It never happened. But he, like, really just knows what he wants. He says it. He's not scared of you.

[Dax Shepard]

Not a people pleaser.

[Brandi Carlile]

No. Like, what we would say is, hey, are you guys cold?

[Lily Padman]

Exactly.

[Brandi Carlile]

You know what I mean? We would, like. We would ask for the peanut gallery to, like, chime in and make a group.

[Dax Shepard]

There's merits of both. I call myself a little bit.

[Brandi Carlile]

I have to admit that the first thing I said when I walked in here today Was. Can we turn the air conditioning.

[Lily Padman]

No. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

It's totally fine.

[Brandi Carlile]

I guess he passed some of it on to me.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, it's a legit thing to say. It's just the manner in which he rolled it out was unlike any version I had ever heard someone advocate for themselves.

[Brandi Carlile]

One time I went up to. Okay, and this is the other thing is when we were making that second record, he didn't come to the studio, not one time. And I live in Seattle, and I had to live in LA to make this record so I could be near him. But then I would have to take the record, which we recorded on the tape, up to his house once a week, sit there and play for him all the work I had done. And then he would make suggestions. And so at one point, he asked for me to double a guitar solo in length. That sounds challenging in this song.

[Dax Shepard]

Impossible narrative.

[Brandi Carlile]

So I said, oh, well, we were cutting the tape. We can't do that. And he goes, I'm sure you'll find a way to make it happen.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Did you?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

It couldn't be done, but it was like that aggressive serenity was such a descriptive fact. Anyway, I don't think it's that way anymore. In fact, I worked with him recently on something, and, yeah, he was very direct, but I enjoyed it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's cool. Something about him triggers some insecurity in me. The dude's fine, and he's a genius,

[Brandi Carlile]

and he knows it. Yeah. Quietly, silently.

[Dax Shepard]

And I may be jealous of that, too.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. Maybe if you ask him, because he doesn't play an instrument or know how to run any of the equipment, what qualifies him as being the guru that he is? And he just says very confidently, my taste. I gotta respect it.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, I know I do. And the results. Yeah, he has them.

[Brandi Carlile]

Can't deny that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I feel like spring always does this thing where you realize you've been thinking about something for a long time, and suddenly it feels like, okay, maybe I actually do something with it.

[Lily Padman]

Totally. It's less pressure, but more like readiness.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Like you've been sitting on an idea or a project or even just a perspective you care about, and now you're like, maybe this deserves to exist somewhere outside of my own head.

[Lily Padman]

In May being Mental Health Awareness Month, there's already this broader conversation happening. People more open, more curious, more willing

[Dax Shepard]

to engage, which is where something like squarespace comes in. It makes that jump from idea to actual thing feel way less overwhelming. You can build a site that looks good, works well, and actually reflects what you're trying to put out there.

[Lily Padman]

And it's not just hypothetical. Wabi Wob literally used Squarespace to build our site.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, and Wabiwab is not trying to spend 40 hours figuring out web design.

[Lily Padman]

It just worked, which is kind of the point.

[Dax Shepard]

So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might, might be it. Head to squarespace.comdax for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. We are supported by Helix. So, Monica, you've been sleeping on a Helix for what, a year now?

[Lily Padman]

A few years now, yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my gosh.

[Lily Padman]

They sponsored a previous show and I got a Helix mattress and it's holding up.

[Dax Shepard]

It is.

[Lily Padman]

I still got it and I really like it because it's so personalized to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they're so personalized. You pick side sleeper back, slee sleeper, whether you run hot or not. That's why I love mine. I haven't had mine as long as you have, but mine is in tip top shape after about six months of hardware, let's be honest, I'm meditating in there, I'm journaling in there, I'm sleeping there. I'm virtually living in there.

[Lily Padman]

And there's actually science behind why we're sleeping better. 82% of those involved in a recent study saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle while sleeping on a Helix mattress.

[Dax Shepard]

They've got over 20 mattress models, so there's one designed specifically for how you sleep. Plus free shipping, 120 night sleep trial, and a limited lifetime warranty. Go to helixsleep.comarmchair for 27% off site wide. That's H E L I X sleep.com armchair for 27% off. Make sure you enter our show name at checkout so they know we sent you. Helixsleep.com Armchair. 2014. You sing the national anthem out of season. You've performed at this point a thousand times in front of people.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, yeah. In my mind I'm like, already Celine Dion.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right, right. But do you get nervous when you go perform there for some reason though? Good, I like that.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And I actually sang the national anthem a lot in the early part of my career for different sporting things. In Seattle, I sort of had like a program I knew a key. Like I had a key that I do it in. And I knew a way to keep the key in my head so I didn't lose it. When I. I got out there, I knew how to manage the delay in the stadium. I knew how to use that song as, like, a wrestling move.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a complicated song. No, like, there's something about it can get away from you. That song really easy, right? People start too high and they got nowhere to go. Is that what it is?

[Brandi Carlile]

Fear in their eyes.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, just, like, they realize they're out of octaves.

[Brandi Carlile]

Don't even listen to where they started. Just look at their eyes. Oh, God. Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so let's go to the fire Watcher's Daughter 2000. This is the first Grammy nomination you get.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So you've been at it now for 10 years. What do you think you picked up between Brandi Carlisle, the first album, and the Fire Watcher's Daughter? Do you think it's all the same, they just slept on you before? Or do you think you learned something at some point that made that a logical conclusion?

[Brandi Carlile]

Lots and lots of live experience, Lots and lots of road time and people skills, understanding how to interact with people. But hold on to myself. A lot of production know how, because I had worked with Tebow and Burnett and Rick Rubin on two separate things and then also all these ancillary producers. Like, I had gone in with John Goodmanson and Tony Berg, and I'd done a lot of projects with other really big producers. And me and twins, we came from a big producer, Rick Brosher. So I had, like, a lot of production ideas and a lot of beliefs about. And when we went in and made Firewatcher's Daughter, it was, for better or worse, self produced with a really powerful and amazing engineer called Trina Shoemaker, who was really co producing when I look back on it now. And so I felt that we were like, almost an indie band. We were living like an indie band and operating like an indie band and just fine with it. Doing really, really well and believing we were doing really well.

[Dax Shepard]

So when you got that nomination, were you shocked or did you.

[Brandi Carlile]

I was shocked. Nobody had ever even talked to me about the Grammys. I thought it was like a TV show that my mom would let me stay up late for because Whitney is going to hit that note live, you know. And so basically I was on an airplane and I got a text message from ato, the, like, indie label we were on at the time. This guy John, he texted me and he said, congratulations on your Grammy nomination. I was on the label with Brittany Howard. And I knew she was always getting this stuff, so I thought, oh, this is Brandi. I said to him, it's been a mix up. I was speechless. I had no idea even when they were or when the nominations were coming out.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you cry?

[Brandi Carlile]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Didn't mean to insinuate you were a little baby? Yeah, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

No, I'm just thinking about it because the Grammys have made me cry a couple of times. But at this point, I didn't cry yet, but I was just like, oh, that's a level of making it that I hadn't even considered.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you end up somewhere bigger than you dreamed.

[Brandi Carlile]

So I went. It was awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you've been back a bazillion times. Just wondering after you've already had them, does the reaction turn to more like relief?

[Brandi Carlile]

I think it does.

[Dax Shepard]

Isn't that weird?

[Brandi Carlile]

It does, because the team works so hard for it. You so want to be able to bring that home for everybody else. And then there becomes an expectation and, you know, if you don't get it, does that mean that something's over? Like when Elton was involved in this last one for Elton, I. I have never wanted acknowledgement more in my life than I did for Elton. Like, he hasn't had enough acknowledgement.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right, right. But on his behalf, you very much wanted that.

[Brandi Carlile]

I couldn't sleep for, like, two days.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And then we woke up and we had it and it was like, ugh, we didn't win.

[Dax Shepard]

And you got a nominated for an Academy Award from that song too.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

That's exciting.

[Dax Shepard]

And you've won two Emmys.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, two Emmys.

[Lily Padman]

You're on your way to an egot. I see this coming. Do you?

[Dax Shepard]

She's gotta figure out what's the other meaning.

[Brandi Carlile]

She's excited.

[Dax Shepard]

Got involved with a Tony. Well, you need. You got to figure out a Tony.

[Lily Padman]

We can figure that out.

[Brandi Carlile]

I have an idea for

[Dax Shepard]

the other fun thing you've done, other than create nine albums that are all great and won 11 Grammys and two Emmys and Academy Award nomination. You've also got this side career as someone who has been obsessed with people, and you get to work with these people. I think this is the zone of your life. I'd be most envious of more than the other other stuff. To have people you love for an eternity and then to get to enter their orbit and then even get to work together. So is Tanya the first person or is Joni. Where does this start? Where you become this Collaborator of people who have been humongous.

[Brandi Carlile]

Where did it start?

[Dax Shepard]

Because you have Tanya Tucker, you have Joni Mitchell, and you have Elton John. You've spent years with these people.

[Brandi Carlile]

It started in some of the places that you don't read about and that you can't imagine, because I am a fan. Like, I. I am a wait outside your tour bus for an autograph fan. I'm that kind of girl. And so a lot of these folks that I followed around when I was young and went to all of their shows and bought every single thing they did and worked to get closer to before I had this job. I got to work with them early on, like the Indigo Girls and Lucinda Williams and Mary Chapin Carpenter and Kim Ritchie and some of my favorite, most iconic, Bonnie Raitt. And then it starts to get bigger, and the artists are, like, getting. And it's like I'm getting a call returned from Dolly, and then we're singing together, and then me and Elton, we're going on vacation together and we're writing songs, and then Joni Mitchell, that turned into a whole other world.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I'm just guessing, but I feel like of the other two, I feel like Joni, you needed to pull her into performing again.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, I may have thought of that at the time, but I remember, you know who Russ Kunkel is. Uh, he's like this iconic drummer. He played on Blue, and he played on all this James Taylor, like, all the early. I think he's even on Tapestry. He's the dude. And he's still killer in doing it all the time. But I did this concert where I covered Blue, and I wasn't even that close with Joanie yet, but she came. Oh, wow. And I had just had my first Joanie jam with her at her house. For anybody that doesn't know what the Joanie jams are, it's something that we started at Joni's behest. Six, seven. She's recovering from an aneurysm, doesn't play music anymore. And we wound up in a situation where we had dinner, and she was talking about her house and her instruments in her living room and saying, I don't do music anymore. I don't want to hear it. It's not a problem. I don't want you to think that that's sad. I'm a painter, I'm a this, I'm a that, but my house misses it. And these instruments should be played.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Brandi Carlile]

What do you think about bringing a few people over every now and then and doing These. So I just had my first jam. And at the very first jam, I won't walk you through the whole process, but Joni decided out of nowhere to open her mouth and sing with nobody expecting it.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Brandi Carlile]

It was. Herbie Hancock was sitting at the piano.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, get out of here. Herbie Hancock was tickling the ivory.

[Brandi Carlile]

Exactly that.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Brandi Carlile]

And he was hovering over this diminished chord that. I didn't know what it was. Nobody knew what it was. She did, though. And she just goes, summertime and the living is. And people burst into tears. Herbie burst into tears. All the people that had been taking care of her. And as she recovered from her aneurysm, she wouldn't do music, but then suddenly just decided to sing that line. Wow. So I'm telling Russ Kunkel this, and he goes, she sang. I go, yeah, she fully sang. And I go, yeah, maybe, you know, maybe it's this or maybe it was cause of that, or it was just this. And he goes, one thing I want you to remember if you ever think that you're spearheading this. Joni Mitchell always has a plan. Joanie's always got a plan.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And so I am convinced that she actually was the architect of everything from that first line to the Hollywood Bowl.

[Dax Shepard]

She's Kaiser Sose. Wow.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

She let you believe this was all your idea. This is genius.

[Brandi Carlile]

I mean, you don't have to let me believe something's all my idea for me to just go ahead and believe it. But she didn't say it wasn't. But I do feel like she orchestrated an incredible recovery for herself I got to be the one in the passenger seat watching it happen.

[Lily Padman]

So cool.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Cool.

[Dax Shepard]

That did escalate into you guys playing at the Bowl. How many shows did you guys do?

[Brandi Carlile]

We did two nights at the Bowl.

[Dax Shepard]

Two nights at the Bowl. Surreal experience for you. Are you able to, in moments like that, be super there and taking it all in, or are you like, yeah,

[Brandi Carlile]

I mean, you want to talk about welling up? I let a few of the Joanie things take me by surprise, but that one I was, like, ready for. And I remember just sitting next to her on the. While she's saying, both sides now, just openly weeping, kind of knowing it was the last time I was gonna get to do it, and also thinking, these are some of the most powerful moments in music history, listening to this woman sing this song. Especially from the perspective of recovering from this aneurysm, being 82 years old, and really having looked at life from both sides now, it's like, how did I get this seat?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, exactly. You must believe. Oh, I guess you believe in God, but I was gonna say you must believe in the seat. Simulation.

[Brandi Carlile]

The simulation. Explain.

[Dax Shepard]

We're in a computer model being run like there's no. Our lives are too good. Literally too good to be true. Suspicious. That night with you with Joanie Mitchell is highly suspicious.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's highly suspicious.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That doesn't happen for people, so.

[Brandi Carlile]

No, it doesn't.

[Dax Shepard]

When it does, you either got to go like, wow, God's really smiling at me. Or we're in a simulation.

[Brandi Carlile]

Or what's going to happen.

[Lily Padman]

Exact. Exactly. Or what shoe's going to drop.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

How long had it been since Tanya had recorded an album when you guys worked together?

[Brandi Carlile]

I think a long time, something like 17 years.

[Dax Shepard]

That album gets nominated for a Grammy.

[Brandi Carlile]

One.

[Dax Shepard]

One, sorry, one.

[Brandi Carlile]

Country album of the year and country song of the year.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

After a 17 year and she'd never won a Grammy in her life. And she is a country music waypaper icon.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes, yes. When you were imagining your own success and visualizing it and you thought was gonna feel like blank, I wanna know how much that delivered or didn't. And then I wanna know the difference between being a part of something that when you can help someone else do something, contrast those two experiences.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, it over delivered. Way beyond over delivered. There's just things like, you know, headlining Madison Square Garden or winning a Grammy or anything that happened with Joni or Dolly or Elton or Taniel or Annie Lennox. It's unbelievable. And then if you take that part of my job and you actually backtrack it, it's why I'm married to my wife. It's why I have my daughters, it's why I have my brothers, the twins, and why we live together. It's why our family is okay. It's given me everything. And so to say it over delivered is such an understatement because it has woven the fabric of my life. Now in terms of when you get something from it, like success or you learn how to do something, when you share that, for me, it's always as soon as I out figure. So when I figure something out, whether it's how to throw a festival or run a successful tour or maybe make an album that is good enough to where it garners the respect of winning a Grammy, I immediately want to do that for or with someone else immediately. I'm already bored with the me part of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right, right.

[Brandi Carlile]

And so when, by the way, I forgive you did what? It did. Somebody mentioned Danny Tucker, and I was like, that's next. Let's get Tanya Tucker here now. And then we get Tanya Tucker here now. And then you hear about the next guy and you're like, yeah, yeah, let's get the door open for them too. And that is just sort of how I've seen it. As soon as I figure out how to get in the door, I'm trying to find a way to prop it open.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, that's really nice.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's the next mountain we were talking about. That's what it is. It's. Yeah. Once you do get what you want, before you sit there and marinate in it long enough to let it change, you get right on into doing that for somebody else.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Because that's where the elation. I mean, I think selfishly, you can pursue that. It's so exciting.

[Brandi Carlile]

It is so exciting.

[Dax Shepard]

It is, right? It's like the number one. Like, I'll pull up to this house and I'm like, God, we are so lucky. We have a great house. But I look at Monica's house and I'm like, oh, yeah, look at Monica's house. That's fucking awesome.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's so funny. I remember when me and the twins, even early on around maybe the story or give up the ghost, anytime they would, like, move into a nice house or get something, like, I would go to their house and I'd be like, hell, yeah. Yes. That's cause of this job. That's cause of this music we're making. Like, we're winning.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I don't know if I'm, like, superstitious and I'm afraid if I let myself experience that, I'll lose everything. And then I can just enjoy it for them without any of those fears. I don't know what's going on, but something's so much more joyous about that.

[Lily Padman]

You can see it objectively when it's not yours.

[Dax Shepard]

True. Yeah. It's quite stark when it's not happening to you. So Phil, one of the twins, married her little sister.

[Lily Padman]

That's fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Isn't that fun?

[Brandi Carlile]

It's really fun.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. I was gonna say.

[Brandi Carlile]

Could I say Nick?

[Lily Padman]

Complicated. Making family.

[Dax Shepard]

Were they trying to hide it from you at first?

[Brandi Carlile]

Maybe a little bit.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

It was really awkward at first, actually, very briefly, because she was so young and he was like, not young.

[Dax Shepard]

He was already older than you. As you.

[Brandi Carlile]

He was already older than me. She's my baby sister.

[Dax Shepard]

You're protective.

[Brandi Carlile]

I want to say she was like, 18.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, shit.

[Brandi Carlile]

And he was 28, 29, and we were already in a band. We'd been on the road together. We were kind of bros in a way. And I was like, are you serious right now? And I mean, I thought to myself, it could definitely be the end of anything with me and the twins, because you do not cross my brothers and sisters on my list.

[Lily Padman]

He has that too. Yeah. I mean, everyone has it, but some of you guys have it more than others.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll kill you if you hurt my sister's feelings.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, my God. My brother and sister, like, no.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

But if they're in a relationship, they're gonna be some stuff.

[Brandi Carlile]

But he's been quite gallant. And honestly, she has really. I don't wanna say something demeaningly cool. She's really grown up. Cause she's like 40, but like she has grown up married to that man and in this band. That is how she has lived the second half of her life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And it's been incredible.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I'm so delighted it worked out.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

That's awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

Because they've been together for a long time now. 22 years.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

You've been with your wife for 13 years?

[Brandi Carlile]

We've been married for 15.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

And we've been together for like 6, 16, 17.

[Dax Shepard]

And so how'd you meet her if she's from England?

[Brandi Carlile]

We met actually she was working for Paul McCartney.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, right. She was doing his philanthropic work.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I had like a campaign running in Seattle called the Fight the Fear Campaign. We were teaching self defense courses to women and people in at risk communities for free. Because there was like a terrible string of like violent crime that had happened in the city that year. And when it kind of culminated in this really awful thing and so it traveled across to England and she was reading about this in the newspaper and basically called up and was like, hey, what can Paul do? What can I do to help Paul thing? And I thought to myself, well, I just started this foundation, I need some mentorship.

[Dax Shepard]

The Keen Out Foundation.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. I had a lot of principles that maybe I was getting in my own way a little bit. So I wanted to have this mentorship thing with her. And we got to talking and so for like a while I thought I was talking to somebody. Paul McCarthy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Brandi Carlile]

I thought I was talking to a 70 year old woman.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Wow. That's an interesting. That's almost like a reality show. Like you can't see the person.

[Lily Padman]

There is a show.

[Brandi Carlile]

It didn't occur to me that she wasn't 70. It did not even occur to me. And she was saying 70 year old shit too, because she's English.

[Dax Shepard]

It sounded.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

At least she took the lift or something.

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't know. She was doing 70 year old stuff. She was listening to 70 year old music. Her and her girlfriend were traveling like 70 year old people and just had this vibe.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you have any moment where you're like, I feel like I'm becoming attracted to a 70 year old woman?

[Brandi Carlile]

I just called her the charity lady. I'm like the charity lady. And then one time I was playing in New York City and I was like getting ready to go out with all the baby dykes. We were all gonna get on our Vespas and drive to the gay bar and drink tequila and I couldn't wait. And she came to the show and I remember the tour manager being like, oh, you're gonna have to say hi to the charity lady. Backstage. I was like, really grateful to her. But is she in a wheelchair? Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

She got a walker. How'd you get her backstage?

[Brandi Carlile]

And now 7:70 is like, that's my age. I love barely old enough for me to date, but I walked backstage with this 27 year old, 28 year old.

[Dax Shepard]

She's hot, I imagine.

[Brandi Carlile]

Absolute not hot.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, she ain't no granny.

[Brandi Carlile]

I mean, and oh my God, she was so charming and I loved her accent. And she had black hair and bright blue eyes and she was wearing this blazer and she just was like hip. And I was like, cancel my plans, order me a pizza. I've got to stay with this woman.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, forever.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, forever.

[Dax Shepard]

Forever. As it turns out. Did she already have a crush on you? If she came to the show, she knew you, you weren't 70. She had that advantage over you.

[Brandi Carlile]

I don't know if she had a crush on me. She will say no. She will say no. But I think, yeah, she probably thought I was pretty cute.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you come to the show.

[Brandi Carlile]

You come to the show.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, now here's another little bit of overlap. What are you smiling at?

[Lily Padman]

Well, she's there. Oh, that's.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yes. My God.

[Dax Shepard]

I did not put that together.

[Lily Padman]

I was like, should we ask or.

[Dax Shepard]

I thought you were like the publicist or something. Let me look at these blue eyes.

[Brandi Carlile]

Look how beautiful she is.

[Dax Shepard]

And now I can say it was theoretical. You are a smoke show. She is a smoke show.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, she's absolutely.

[Lily Padman]

I didn't know what you were doing because you knew.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I thought it was your public 10

[Brandi Carlile]

wife and she manages me now.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So I wasn't terribly off basic. She's got an official capacity and we can ask them.

[Lily Padman]

Did you have a crush?

[Brandi Carlile]

She's going to say no.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. When you came to that show, did you have plans? I had my. My girlfriend with me, so.

[Brandi Carlile]

Listen to her talk.

[Lily Padman]

I'll say that I think we're all

[Dax Shepard]

intrigued by your voice.

[Brandi Carlile]

Listen to that voice.

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Brandi Carlile]

Do you see what I was going through?

[Lily Padman]

That's order pizza time.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, let's not go.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's get this girlfriend out of here. Was. Doesn't she have some errands to run? We ordered pizza. You can't eat pizza. Right. Heard you're gluten intolerant. You don't eat cheese.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. The cauliflower flour crust is in the

[Dax Shepard]

twins dressing room down the block. Okay. Our other overlap is we're both boat owners.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

You have the Captain Fantastic. Gorgeous vessel. I saw some video of you out piloting it.

[Brandi Carlile]

And you have a pontoon.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a tritune. Yeah. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

So is a tritune less redneck than a pontoon?

[Dax Shepard]

It is. It's the newest iteration. They're more stable.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a 400 horsepower V10 on a pontoon, so it moves.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, wow. That really moves.

[Dax Shepard]

It really moves. I was just on it this weekend.

[Brandi Carlile]

Marquee Mercury or Yamaha?

[Dax Shepard]

A? Mercury.

[Lily Padman]

Wow, language you guys are speaking.

[Dax Shepard]

You got dual 350s out back. Dual 400, dual 400s, girl. Get it. Okay. And a big ass kit, second engine.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You've got me doubled in horsepower.

[Lily Padman]

Do you just check out? Yeah, me too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. We could get into it.

[Brandi Carlile]

She really checks out.

[Dax Shepard]

Captain Fantastic named the boat after Elton John. Y and just congratulations. Looking out foundations, giving away 9 million bucks. I think that's incredible that you've raised that amount of money.

[Lily Padman]

A lot of different. Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

What's the thing about the foundation is I started the foundation in 2007 when GM wanted to use the story in a television commercial.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Brandi Carlile]

And I was really young and idealistic. They offered me like $100,000, you know, and you know how old I was. That's a very big deal. Oh, and I made all these calls to all my friends and I called the Indigo Girls, which, if you want to do a television commercial, never call the Indigo Girls. And all my friends were like, you can't do that. GM is one of the biggest contributors to pollution and they've caused all these problems. It is rum that they've squashed patents and that they're really restricting the progression of the Electric car and the hydrogen engine and the things that could help the environment. You can't work with gm, so who knows how much of that was true. But I said no. And so, like, the VP of advertising at GM was like a 20 something year old kid. Can't say no to $100,000 unless we're getting a really bad reputation. And they called me and they said, what can we do to convince you to let us put your song in the Olympics and give you $100,000?

[Dax Shepard]

How can we make this even better for you?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And so I thought, and I made some demands and they acquiesced to all of them. And it was really cool, empowering moment for me as a young girl.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And then I took that money and started the foundation. And that's what we used it for. But since then, the foundation has done the things like Fight the Fear campaign that I was telling you about. We've done a lot to end hunger. We've done a lot of LGBTQ focused stuff. And in recent years, the plight of displaced people and outreach to refugees and asylum seekers, you know, children whose lives have been torn apart by. By war, immigrants, economic migrants, and the way that we navigate the southern border have become focuses of the Looking Out Foundation.

[Dax Shepard]

And you did Covid relief stuff.

[Brandi Carlile]

We were really campaign based. You know, maybe it's adhd. Part of me, if that's a real thing for me, I think you're the

[Dax Shepard]

only person that's actually been diagnosed and you don't want it.

[Lily Padman]

I know you're like, everyone else hasn't

[Dax Shepard]

been diagnosed and they want it. You're like flipping the script on terminal uniqueness.

[Brandi Carlile]

Just don't accept it. Too many people have everyone. Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not punk rock anymore to be adhd.

[Brandi Carlile]

No. So that's the foundation.

[Lily Padman]

That's awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so Returning to Myself is currently out and you are on tour. You have tour dates that people could go look at. Brandycarlile.com and one other things I want to say before I get to be serenaded, which I'm so excited about.

[Lily Padman]

I think so too.

[Dax Shepard]

I think that's it. Everyone listen immediately to Returning to Myself, if you're not already obsessed with it, and go see Brandi live. This woman is like the Beatles. She's played as many live shows. You're guaranteed for a good show. Am I? You've been playing. It's kind of crazy, right? At 44, you've been playing for 30 plus years.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. It's like it's second nature to me by now, but it never gets old. Just like you were saying, it's the best job in the world. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. All right. I would love to hear this song that's going to make me think of my children.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

My buddy Marcus on. And he did this right with his job.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yes, he did.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you don't even need the bottle. Oh my God. This is post bottle.

[Lily Padman]

I've seen it without the bottle.

[Brandi Carlile]

This is like tipped Marcus to this.

[Dax Shepard]

I think he said that. By the way, we loved him.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

You must love him, right?

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, my God. We are sibs.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. He brought you up a lot. He loves you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Special dude.

[Brandi Carlile]

I love his solo album.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Brandi Carlile]

Self titled. It's such a good. He is such a good piece of music and really important. I love Mumford and Sons too. Oh, my God. Always have. Keep on with the levels. You want me to sing.

[Dax Shepard]

You know what's crazy? We're sitting here talking. You're just so charismatic and special. Before you do this.

[Lily Padman]

I know now and then you do

[Dax Shepard]

this and I'm like, well, hold on a sec. You can't have all. Yeah, now I'm a little upset. I'm like, you don't get a superpower on top of having a great personality. You get kind of one or the other.

[Brandi Carlile]

You guys have plenty of superheroes too.

[Lily Padman]

Not that one though. That's a hard one.

[Dax Shepard]

And you haven't even seen me drive that pontoon. It's got to be what you're referencing.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, I can just see the wake though. So this song, it's about kids that are our kids age. And it's about these little moments, these little like micro separations where you see them do something that you didn't expect. They're trying something out that they're gonna need later on in life, like when they're not with you. It's called like a you without me moment. And I'm wondering what yours was because my friend Ben, when he first heard this song, he had this moment where it was like they were at this big party weekend thing and Mark Ronson was DJing and he was gonna let his oldest daughter stay up late and like dance with him on the dance floor. And they're out on the dance floor and they're silly dancing and they're being goofy and they're doing the thing. But she started to like her own music. So she sees a group of older girls, you know, she's maybe 10 and they're like 14 or 15. And he gets distracted and she leaves him and she goes over to them and she starts trying to dance with them, like, the way they're danc and, like, relate to them. And he said that he looked over there and he saw her and he didn't recognize her.

[Dax Shepard]

That she was an independent, autonomous, and

[Brandi Carlile]

she was taking a risk. And she was using her body and voice in a way that he had never seen.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

And these are the little, like, moments where it occurs to you that they're gonna leave.

[Dax Shepard]

They're their own people.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And they're tiny things at first. And that's what I wrote this song about. It's called you'd Without Me. Was your smile always crooked?

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Was the freedom ever free? Do you kick the rocks between your feet after all this time with me? You can listen to your own records now. Decide what you believe. You can pray on stars and skip the God like stones across the sea. But I would know you anywhere I lost myself in you. And heavy are the hands that you are free to slip right through. Do what you have to do. And there you are, my morning star I wondered when you'd show Give me just a quick thumbs up A wink before you go. I never heard that voice before. For today I remind myself to breathe and there you are it's just you

[Brandi Carlile]

without me. I'm late to another game I guess

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

I never learn the rules I showed up with a broken name and handed it to you I'm not sure if

[Brandi Carlile]

you can fix it now but if

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

you wanted to I would follow you around and carry all your tools. Cause I would know you anywhere I found myself in you. And heavy are the hands that hold the changes you go through do what you have to do. And there you are, my morning star I wondered when you just show Giving me a Just a quick thumbs up A wink before you go. I never heard that voice before today I remind myself to breathe and there you are. It's just you without me Me without me. It's as predictable as time and age but comforting in some strange way that time makes every one of us an absolute cliche.

[Brandi Carlile]

And when I met you face to

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

face not none of it was true. So who am I?

[Brandi Carlile]

Not you.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

There you are my morning star I wondered when you showed Just a quick thumbs up, a wink before you go. I never heard that voice before today I remind myself to breathe I'm ever just a thought away if ever you need me. You're gonna live a lot of life. You're gonna see a lot of years, God willing just you without me There you are. It's just you. Without me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it's so sad. It's the without me part that's so sad. Every time you say without me, thinking, oh, no. Yeah, you're gonna have a whole life without me.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Gorgeous. Gorgeous. Thank you so much.

[Dax Shepard]

It's bittersweet, isn't it?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah, it is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You gotta go, like, oh, yeah. And that's a sign. I did a good job. That's all you get. They're just like.

[Brandi Carlile]

See, I know they're not.

[Lily Padman]

Think about how you think about your. Your parents.

[Brandi Carlile]

Well, I know, but there was a moment.

[Lily Padman]

I know there is.

[Dax Shepard]

I got my 20s to do, girl. I'll talk to you later. Like, 20s is coming. You know you gotta do your 20s.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It doesn't involve mom and dad.

[Brandi Carlile]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

No. And then hopefully it comes back around.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, it does.

[Dax Shepard]

I want it for them.

[Brandi Carlile]

They go and they just do, like one little thing. It's one little interaction. You see them do point. They make one thing they disagree about, where they win the argument. And you're like, there you are. That's who you're gonna be for the rest of your life without me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no, take me. I'll carry your tools like you said. I'll run and get coffee.

[Lily Padman]

Well, that was beautiful.

[Brandi Carlile]

Thank you so much.

[Dax Shepard]

Your tiny desk, by the way, is so good.

[Brandi Carlile]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I love tiny desk. And you nailed yours.

[Brandi Carlile]

I like tiny dust, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It'll show you who's what separates the

[Brandi Carlile]

wheat from the Chester. Have you seen Dochi's tiny desk?

[Lily Padman]

It's incredible.

[Brandi Carlile]

Or the silk Sonic John Anderson pack? Oh, my God.

[Lily Padman]

On.

[Brandi Carlile]

It was just insane.

[Dax Shepard]

What a dude.

[Brandi Carlile]

What a vibe, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you watch that? I could talk to you for seven hours. Just side note, I'm going to wrap this up, but did you watch this super bowl halftime show with Dr. Dre? Obviously, he's the most memorable one ever.

[Lily Padman]

Yep.

[Brandi Carlile]

They were all wearing rich, fresh tracksuits. Baby blue powder blue, rich, fresh drums. It's so cool.

[Dax Shepard]

But when they pan over and I'm like, anderson Pack's playing the drums this whole time.

[Brandi Carlile]

We didn't even see him. Yeah, I know.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

That's.

[Brandi Carlile]

That is how stacked that lineup was. You didn't even see Anderson Paak playing the drums.

[Dax Shepard]

11 minutes in, you're like, oh, damn, Anderson's been playing the drums.

[Brandi Carlile]

Why doesn't everybody call that halftime out like everybody says? I mean, Prince and I mean Prince was amazing.

[Lily Padman]

Right?

[Brandi Carlile]

But it's like, now that's number one. Pretty epic.

[Dax Shepard]

It Was, I think, too, if you're a poor kid.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I was crying during that whole thing. I'm like, these kids are from down the block, and Tipper Gore was saying they were going to destroy America.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And everyone hated them. And they were the poor kids. And look at them. And they are the show.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I loved it.

[Brandi Carlile]

So you have the vibe that the old gays have now about the young gays.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's like.

[Dax Shepard]

That's poor.

[Brandi Carlile]

Like, you got old, poor kid thing going on, like.

[Lily Padman]

Exactly.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's the thing.

[Dax Shepard]

That's my gateway into understanding.

[Brandi Carlile]

We're like, let's talk about coming for nothing right now and then owning the world.

[Dax Shepard]

These motherfuckers own the world. Nothing could be worth better. Well, Brandy, this has been a delight.

[Lily Padman]

Thank you for joining us.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So nice. I'm really glad Anna's got good taste.

[Lily Padman]

She sure does.

[Dax Shepard]

When she picks a mentor, boy, it's few and far between.

[Lily Padman]

It's true.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming. This has been so lovely.

[Brandi Carlile]

Thanks for having me. I've always wanted to talk to you guys.

[Lily Padman]

Please come back.

[Brandi Carlile]

Have me back.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, we love to. Stay tuned for the Fact Check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. We just ordered drinks from Erewhon.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

And I'm putting in. I'm trying to order it, and it's saying, you. You have to meet at the door. This can't be left. It's like. That's weird. Okay, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Then it says, you have to show your id, and we ordered you something

[Dax Shepard]

that's just a standard disclaimer in case you've ordered alcohol.

[Lily Padman]

No, because I order Erewhon, like, every day. Or not every day. I mean, but I ordered.

[Dax Shepard]

I bet you can predict my reaction to this, which is like, fine, fuck you. We won't order from you. You don't leave it. You got a show id. It's like, this is my. My beef with the place that required a signature no matter what. It's like our policy. It's like, great, well, then I won't. I won't be using you.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, well, I already ordered it.

[Dax Shepard]

You didn't predict that.

[Lily Padman]

No, I didn't. Because what I of course, think is, so you got a new drink we don't know about. It's like, new and strange and it has colostrum in it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think that's the only strange part. Everything else is not new.

[Lily Padman]

Or, like, maybe that is what's requiring it.

[Dax Shepard]

You got to be an adult to Drink. Or maybe you got to be a baby to drink.

[Lily Padman]

Colostrum to show you're under 21.

[Dax Shepard]

You got to show you're under 2 years old.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, anyway, we didn't anticipate that being the sis.

[Lily Padman]

We didn't. But I think this is interesting that I do, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You got breast milk in your coffee. There was no.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Brandi Carlile]

I want to make sure.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, it has.

[Brandi Carlile]

It has colostrum, but there's no alcohol

[Dax Shepard]

in it, so why would you need.

[Lily Padman]

Exactly. That's why. But now I have to check.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Just.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I would detect alcohol immediately. That's interesting. That was in last night's meeting I was at.

[Lily Padman]

Tell me.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, just people are kind of. One person told a story about ordering a, you know, a Coke, and it came. There's always these moments for alcoholics where inevitably you're going to bump into some real alcohol.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Tell me how that goes.

[Dax Shepard]

My. You know, my second dad and I were. One time in Wyoming, and. And I ordered a diet Coke and he ordered a ginger ale, and our drinks came and. And we both took a sip of them almost at the same time. And I mean, was like, oh, this is Jack and diet. And then he's putting his drink down, he goes, but this is. What was really funny is he goes, try this. Is there j. Like, oh, God. He just wasn't really thinking. He's just doing what you would normally do if you say something funny.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was like, I'll take your word for it. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, you shouldn't try it. But it was just kind of instinctual, like, does this smell funny?

[Lily Padman]

Right? Totally.

[Dax Shepard]

Does this taste like. Anyways, they were both laced with Jack Daniels. That a Jack Ginger and a Jack and Die.

[Lily Padman]

I have a lot, like, look, I have a lot of respect for servers and food staff and chefs and kitchen workers, but that makes me so angry.

[Dax Shepard]

It does.

[Lily Padman]

Yes. That kind of mistake. Take only that one.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Is so bad. That is so dangerous. People don't understand what can happen.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure, sure. I mean, look, we could. We could look at this from a lot of different angles. I would just say right out of the gates, what percentage of people in the restaurant at any given time are recovering addicts? It's like a lot to.

[Lily Padman]

You have to protect the most vulnerable.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Yeah. I just. I imagine he's got tickets and he, you know, or she. The bartender got, you know, six different Cokes, and Jack and I. Mistakes happen.

[Lily Padman]

I see how it happened. I'm not like. But I do think it is incumbent is your responsibility if you're bartender or whatever. Yeah, I guess. It was a bartender, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's the kind of restaurant they gotta put in the drink order with the bartender.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

To be aware if there shouldn't be alcohol in the drink. But wait, it also could be for a kid.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, thank you. I was just, I just had gotten that place in my head where I was like, if it's happened to me and it's happened to Tom and it's happened to. Well, almost every dude in the meeting had. Had this. Yeah. Surely kids are getting. And do they think like, oh, this just tastes funny, but I still like soda.

[Lily Padman]

No, it's gross. Something's wrong with this.

[Dax Shepard]

I like to think that some kid just powered through, became an alcoholic. Buzzed. Well again, most people who drink don't become alcoholic.

[Lily Padman]

A lot of us do.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a fun little like philosophical conversation which is like, I don't think it's the responsibility of the masses to be changing their whole life because some small percentage of the population has a thing.

[Lily Padman]

I just don't think that's generally don't either. But this isn't changing anything. This is just being careful.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no, I mean even the notion that like, well, you can't have a. If a kid drank, he'd be an alcoholic. Well, it's like. Well that's not true. Most people that drink aren't alcoholics, so that's fine. Yeah. But I think that would be a common kind of religion reaction.

[Lily Padman]

Well no, I think they're just like, don't give my kid alcohol. Like that's very.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's bad.

[Dax Shepard]

You want to decide when your kid has alcohol.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And. And it is illegal.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm so sorry. I have it on do not disturb, but for some reason it's still. Yeah, do not disturb. Why would you be buzzing?

[Lily Padman]

See, it's like my, my door burns.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't buzz. You're not supposed to buzz. Oh, it's cuz it's Kristen.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, she has an override.

[Dax Shepard]

She has an override if she calls and now I'm realizing she has an override. Override. If she texts you.

[Lily Padman]

Does she have to call twice or text twice or it just immediately is an over.

[Dax Shepard]

Anytime she calls it'll actually ring.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, that's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

I learned that from Toto Wolf. Remember he was in the interview and his phone rang twice.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Once was his wife and once was one of his children.

[Lily Padman]

Oh yeah, that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And he said, oh, and I was like, I didn't even know you could do that.

[Lily Padman]

That's cool. Okay. I did look it up. And cold brew coffee with cowboy colostrum, though. Like, what does it mean, cowboy colostrum. Okay. Heavy cream and maple syrup. That's all it's saying. Oh. Enhanced with Luca maca and sea salt.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe they don't want kids to have maca because it's a lot of caffeine or some. Maybe I'm just thinking that, like, it's a policy gone arai.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like they flagged some certain thing and now this got ins. Snared in it.

[Lily Padman]

There's no reason someone bet it's colostrum, but we need to figure out why,

[Dax Shepard]

like, you know, further.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God. What if you get addicted to cholesterol colostrum now.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I'm gonna get in trouble for this.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But it's in keeping with this conversation. We already have it. I just had read that they're like sentencing someone who is in between. I don't know what chain of events they were involved with. The Matthew Perry overdose.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, I've heard about this.

[Dax Shepard]

And they just got sentenced. And I think someone else got sentenced.

[Lily Padman]

Like a doctor, I think. Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And my kids and I were talking about it and I was like, no, that's not how it should work. My analogy was Yamaha, Kawasaki, all these motorcycle companies, they all sell motorcycles that go 200 miles an hour. They're for sale at the dealership. A 16 year old can walk in and buy it. They don't have to prove at all that they've ever ridden a thing. And quite often those kids go out and they die on motorcycles. It's way too much motorcycle.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That is living in a country with liberty. You do have the right to. To be a mountain climber, to do dangerous activities.

[Lily Padman]

That's not the same.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no, it's. It's identical. If you, if you remove the word legal or illegal and you just say that there are many products that are sold that are just inherently dangerous. Motorcycles, drugs, guns, alcohol. Alcohol, cigarettes.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Cars. There are products that are dangerous.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I really believe. Believe, unless it's a situation like Big Tobacco, where they know it causes cancer and they're stifling that information. Like, I think you should have full awareness as a consumer of what the. I think it should be like, yeah, you're going to buy this motorcycle. It goes 200 miles an hour. You kill yourself really easily. Okay. Now if you want to do that, that's like, it's your life. So, no, I don't think someone that sells a dangerous product should go to jail because someone else used the dangerous product and killed themselves. I think it's the person who used it has to have the responsibility.

[Lily Padman]

Well, not if it's a doctor. It's a doctor, I think, that got in trouble. I think maybe I'm wrong about that. Yeah, but again, not a doctor. I'm more aligned with you. But.

[Dax Shepard]

But let's just say that what I guarantee is that the doctor hadn't given him a dosage that killed him. What I guarantee is that he had multiple sources or stockpiled or whatever, and he took on his own a dose that no doctor would ever recommend.

[Lily Padman]

Well, we don't know that.

[Dax Shepard]

We. I do.

[Lily Padman]

How like Michael Jackson's doctor also gave. Gave him way too much. Like, they're giving what the people are asking for. And that's the whole issue. It's. They have a do not do no harm obligation. And if it's just like, well, this person's paying me and wanting more than I'm really. I should give, but I'm giving it. That a problem?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we would. We would need more, but I can tell you we wouldn't. From everyone I've known who's overdosed in the last 30 years of sobriety, no one was taking it as prescribed.

[Lily Padman]

Right, but this was ketamine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So there is a safe dosage of ketamine. A lot of people in this country have ketamine prescriptions. Yeah, but, like, if I got a prescription for Percocet, right? The. The 1.0s, the big boys. And it says, take one every four hours. And I take that jar and I take eight right away. Away. Yeah, that's on me.

[Lily Padman]

No, that is on you, though.

[Dax Shepard]

What he did.

[Lily Padman]

What.

[Dax Shepard]

What our boy did was he OD'd. He took way more than was prescribed to him. For sure.

[Lily Padman]

Well, I don't know if it's for sure, because then every doctor who had an o, had someone od, would be in trouble. And that's not the case.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. The only thing that makes the. I think this reason this person's going to jail is because a. The person that died was. Was famous. I think a bunch of people have od, done ketamine and other drugs, and there was not even an investigation. Like, yeah, someone OD'd. That's what happens on drugs when they're abused. But because it's him, they're like, well, we got to figure out who killed Matthew Perry. That's not what. No one killed him.

[Lily Padman]

Well, again, I don't know that this is. I don't know enough about this doctor or what was being prescribed.

[Dax Shepard]

I do know that I read what he was on when he died, and it was an insane amount of ketamine, and it was not what his. His prescription was. He was a drug counselor that connected Perry to the ketamine Queen who delivered him the ketamine.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, Ketamine Queen is tricky.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I don't know enough about her. At the end of the day. He did it. No one else did it. He did it.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, but if you're a doctor, you. You can't. Like.

[Dax Shepard]

Ketamine Queen was a doctor, I assume.

[Lily Padman]

Let me look it up. Yes. This person, British American, convicted felon and drug dealer known as the Ketamine Queen. She gained international attention. Her indictment and subsequent guilty plea in connection with the overdose of actor Matthew. Let me see if she's a doctor. She looks kind of Indian.

[Dax Shepard]

Kind of Indian.

[Lily Padman]

Prosecutors alleged that she operated a drug distribution network from her North Hollywood home for several years. Sentenced to 15 years in prison for her role in supplying the ketamine that would cause Perry's death.

[Dax Shepard]

Just think how many people drink to a fatal level. It happens a ton.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, but you can get in trouble for over serving.

[Dax Shepard]

I can go into the store and I can buy 10 fish.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So we would agree the Jack Daniels Company should not be held responsible because someone went and bought.

[Lily Padman]

How did she even get the ketamine, this lady? She's probably. I mean, it's clearly illegal. What she's doing is illegal. So that's why she's going to jail.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, She's a drug dealer. Drug dealer.

[Lily Padman]

Drug dealers, you know, But I admit agree that if you. I think drug dealers in certain cases should go to jail.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you do?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. You're getting illegal drugs off the black market. I mean, yes. You're engaging in a lot of illegal activity.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the time that I'd be fine with a drug dealer going to jail would be when the drug dealer knowingly sold someone fentanyl under the guise of it being heroin. Knowingly, Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

I mean, obviously, then they're a murderer.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, exactly. Then the person that got it can't really dose it correctly, and they have deceitfully misled this person, which may have caused their death. But if I'm selling you crack cocaine, I go, hey, bro, this is crack. You know, do with you. I really don't think it's on the

[Lily Padman]

person who sold it, but they Got it Illegally. No one gets crack legally.

[Dax Shepard]

That's kind of what I'm trying to have the conversation about is because we labeled alcohol legal in this other thing, illegal, yet we clearly think because alcohol is legal, that no one's really responsible. Someone drinks themselves to death. And so you're saying that because one is classified by the government as illegal and one is legal, that that should make the person who sells it go to prison.

[Lily Padman]

Yes, because there are regulations on actual alcohol. Like you. It's labeled 12%, blah, blah. Like crack is not like it's. If. If crack was legal, then it would probably be under some sort of system where you'd see the amount. It would be like supervised in a way.

[Dax Shepard]

Regularly held responsible. Yeah, right.

[Lily Padman]

But that's fine then. I am fine. If we lived in a world where it was legal and it was regulated. I mean, this was a whole marrow. This is the whole debate about marijuana for years and years and years, which now.

[Dax Shepard]

And all these people went to prison and were held responsible for other people's abuse of something.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think we all now agree that was a bad. That was wrong.

[Brandi Carlile]

Right.

[Lily Padman]

But also because now just because, like, marijuana isn't a problem.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

But crack is a problem.

[Brandi Carlile]

You.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, let's keep it to ketamine because you can get a prescription for ketamine. There is ketamine therapy. People do use ketamine therapeutically. I personally don't think it's a great idea to use ketamine because I've seen it go wrong more than I've seen it go right. And not even in death. I've seen a very temporary patch for something that long term wasn't a good solution.

[Lily Padman]

Right. And you think it has a risk of addiction.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, just like cigarettes, alcohol, caffeine, most things that.

[Lily Padman]

Do you think it's more or less. I'm actually asking because I don't know a lot about ketamine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I don't. I've never taken ketamine, so I don't know how sticky it is. Yeah, I know how sticky opiates are.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I know how sticky cocaine is. I know how sticky alcohol is. I know cigarettes, like. Yeah, of all of them cigarettes, cigarettes are the stickiest. There's a bunch of junkies that'll tell you quitting smoking was harder than quitting heroin.

[Lily Padman]

But again, that's why, like, because it's legal. It says, like, basically it says on the box like, this is gonna kill you.

[Dax Shepard]

But my only issue with cigarette manufacturers were when they knew it was causing Something.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, horrible.

[Dax Shepard]

And, and they silence that. And so to me, if you have total transparency, I do think we. I want to live in a country where people get to evaluate the risks they want to take. And then also we. I don't think it's fair. 90% of people or even the 94% of people who try cocaine and don't become addicted. I don't think it's fair to those people that because us 8% have a problem, you guys can't do it. I don't think that's fair.

[Lily Padman]

Well, we can't do it because it's not regulated and there is fentanyl in it and there is like, there's so many. It's not. Are you saying you think cocaine should be legalized?

[Dax Shepard]

No, I don't think that. I think that we've seen the extra experiment run. It doesn't work. That's my opinion. On, on many classifications of drugs. I do think they're too addictive and I think the barriers that exist are what help it going from 94 of people never getting addicted to, you know, the 8. I think if it were, yeah, $5 for an 8 ball and it was at 7 11, I think you would see a massive uptick. You would?

[Lily Padman]

Yes. And it would affect every single person, whether you're an addict or you're not.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's one topic. Do I think it should be legalized? And then another topic is do I think people are respons distributing a product that's dangerous and someone abuses it and dies? I don't, I don't think the kid who breaks the speed limit on his new Yamaha or 1 and is going 180 on the 5 and kills himself. I don't think the dealer is responsible.

[Lily Padman]

I don't either.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think Yamaha is responsible.

[Lily Padman]

But again the, the difference is. I just. We're. I do think the difference is legality.

[Dax Shepard]

I know but that's just really. We would agree that's arbitrary. Like we'd wasn't legal two years ago and, and now it is.

[Lily Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And so now we, now we think that it's like, well, that should have

[Lily Padman]

been consistent because like doesn't do that much harm. There's been. We have enough, we have enough evidence of all of these drugs at this point to, to rank how lethal they are exactly. And, and lethal to yourself and like, you know, to society, like what it's going to cause then we get even

[Dax Shepard]

more fun debate, which is sometimes the ones that aren't lethal are weirdly more Dangerous. So like weed and alcohol.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I think bizarrely, they can take more of a toll on your overall life because they're not so extreme that you can habitually do them forever and lose big chunks of your existence.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Weed's gonna be. I think at some. There's, there's going to be one. There'll be some study at some point when we have 20 years of data on what happened with this experiment. And although I'm in favor of it, we're going to see it's just a more innocuous. It has more innocuous and subtle consequences that are currently being completely ignored.

[Lily Padman]

Sure. Like in a way that maybe, maybe if someone is addicted to caffeine and then they can't sleep and then they have a bad. You know, know, like. Yes. There are consequences for anything you do. Anything you can eat sugar.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

You know, like, where do we draw the line?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And I think you have to draw it at. You have to draw it somewhere. Obviously, I think we both agree we can't just have a free for all situation.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we have the data for it. Back in the early 1900s when these cure alls, when people went town to town with cure alls in 30% of the kids, cure all was opium. You saw there was a moment in America where like 30% of the country was addicted to opiates. So we have data that when you make it wildly available and it's not illegal, it's bad. You're gonna have a third of the population. So back to the weed. What makes me think we will at some point re evaluate it a little bit? Not to say we're ever going to make it illegal again or that we should, but my anecdotal experiences, I. I drive Delta to school every morning on my motorcycle and when I am, well, both directions, but certainly I'm more aware of it when I'm driving home by myself. I smell weed the whole way home in la.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I have to go like, oh, yeah. So now that it's legal, a lot of people have transferred to. Many, many people are getting stoned the second they wake up and on their way to work and walking around in the morning.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not judgmental of it, but I am still suggesting that's going to show a little burble. We're going to see some, some downriver consequences of people waking up and immediately getting stoned.

[Lily Padman]

I mean, my guess is yes, but I also don't know. We have Seth Rogan, you know, he's Extremely. Not affected negatively at all, for sure. This is a hard one for me because I don't like weed. Like, personally, I don't take it, I don't enjoy it. So I don't feel. Feel like I have a dog in this fight, really.

[Dax Shepard]

Here's what you don't see. I saw it one time. Well, I've seen it a couple times. I saw it in Russia when I was there in 1996, I guess. And it had, you know, the wall had only fallen at that point for what, seven years or something? And driving in the morning from the boat to Catherine's Palace, I saw hundreds, if not thousands, thousands of men drinking vodka at 8am on the sidewalk.

[Lily Padman]

It's cultural. Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

And you go, that town has a drinking problem. And then we went to Sweden right after. And then we learned of Sweden's taxation of vodka because Sweden went, we got a drinking problem. And so they wanted to start addressing it somehow. And what I'm saying is, if you were driving home from anywhere at 8am in the morning and you saw one in three people chugging alcohol, alcohol, vodka or beer, you go, huh, this isn't great.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But weed, this is what I'm talking about. It's innocuous quality, which is like, yeah, I do believe you can smoke weed and drive your car and smoke weed and probably go to work and do a fine job. I don't think you're gonna do a hundred percent. I don't think.

[Lily Padman]

I don't either. But I don't also know, like, I don't know because I. I just don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's just interesting how it's already, like, folded into our culture and it's kind of like you. You observe people smoking weed all morning in L. A.

[Lily Padman]

And it might be because it's still. I mean, not in a. Not really new, but kind of. It's still kind of newly legal.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And as you said, like, we could be seeing 1 in 3 people drinking all day, and we don't. And I think that probably has to do with just the fact that it's been around for so long and.

[Dax Shepard]

And you can't function as well, and y. You can't. If you show up to work, you smell like it, and socially we're like, no, no, you can't drink in the morning.

[Lily Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

It's interesting. You can smoke weed in the morning. It's fine. No one really gives a shit.

[Lily Padman]

I mean, I think most people do. I think most people, if they hear that, are like, what? That's crazy. I think some people maybe don't, but I think the majority of people who, who hear that somebody woke up in the morning and started smoking weed immediately are probably a little concerned about that person. I am.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I just saw this, this. I saw these two ladies, they have a podcast about adhd. They' and they were talking about why many ADHD people love weed because it's a dopamine dysregulation condition and that you can get dopamine from the weed. So initially they're talking about, it's almost like heavily in support of adhd, people using it, or at least maybe not feeling guilty that they're using it because it is like a good medicine for them. But then they were also very quite honest to say. And 36% of ADHD cannabis users have cannabis use disorder.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's like it's over a third. And I also think we. It has benefited from the fact that we've been saying forever it's not addictive. It is not physically addictive. You're not going to go through withdrawals of the physical variety when you stop doing it, but you're going to go through a lot and you. Mental withdrawal, your brain chemistry is going 100% for a while. And so I also don't think we're being totally honest about, like, oh, it's not addictive. No, no. Many, many people are fully addicted to weed and their tolerance has gone up and up and their dosage has gone up and up and up.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And they're smoking. You know, a lot of weed addictions

[Lily Padman]

are also mental, like so many are. That will kill you. Like, not, not, not just. It's not just like a silly thing to say. It's very. You know, my brother used to smoke so much weed. It was like, it's not addictive. It's not addictive. And I' addicted. I can tell because, because you, you keep getting in trouble for this. It's having a consequence and you can't or won't stop.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Lily Padman]

So maybe, yes, it's not physically addictive, but mentally you are addicted.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

So.

[Dax Shepard]

And you probably won't suck a dick for weed. You probably won't break into a house for weed. And there's like, there is a. Even when you're jonesing for it, it doesn't reach the level of jonesing for opiates or jonesing for. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. It's fascinating.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, it is interesting, I think, I

[Dax Shepard]

think, though, we'll have a bit of A reckoning. I think it should stay legal again. I don't think that the many. The millions of people that are doing it, like on the weekends to relax or taking a gummy to go to sleep, I don't want those people to lose. Lose that. No, they should have that. And also, like me, are going to it up and abuse it. And then there's also going to probably be some questions about when you start doing it, at what age and what kind of effects it has on your brain development if you're a heavy weed user.

[Lily Padman]

Well, maybe they will start. Maybe eventually they'll be. Is it right now, Is there an age thing?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. 18. Well, I don't know if it's 18 or 20. 21. It would make sense that it was 21, but I have no clue.

[Lily Padman]

I would assume it would be 21 and it. And it.

[Dax Shepard]

I probably wouldn't get carded. I know that it's 21. It's 21. Yep.

[Lily Padman]

Wow. That's a really big ding, ding, ding. Because I'm about getting carded. Yep. I was at Chili's this past weekend.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, with your mom?

[Lily Padman]

With my mom and dad.

[Brandi Carlile]

In doing.

[Dax Shepard]

You guys went over Chili's?

[Lily Padman]

We did, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Great.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. It was my idea.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good. Did you get the potato skins?

[Lily Padman]

I didn't. I got the quesadilla, which is my thing there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And the problem is my mom had made quesadillas the day before. Homemade. Homemade tortillas, homemade everything. And they were so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Gourmet.

[Lily Padman]

They were really gourmet. And then I had this idea about the Chili's quesadillas because it's so nostalgic.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And it was. It was fun. It was good. It was fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

I just probably shouldn't have had it the next day after these, like, really one of a kind quesadillas.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Lily Padman]

We were. We were at, obviously, tj. My mom and I went to TJ Maxx. Obviously.

[Dax Shepard]

I thought you're about to say tgif. I was like, wow, you guys hit Fridays and Chili's weekend.

[Lily Padman]

We went to TJ Maxx, which we always do. We went to Kohl's. We went to Nordstrom Rack. They're all in the same area.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

We're shopping. And then there's a Chili's right there. Our Chili's, where, like, I grew up going. And I asked, oh, my mom had asked earlier, what do you want to do for dinner? And I was like, I don't know. And then I said, have you guys been to the Chili's do you guys still go there? And she was like, yeah, we go. And she's like, do you want to do that for dinner? Dinner? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I do want to. So then my dad met us.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Where was he?

[Lily Padman]

He was at home.

[Dax Shepard]

He wasn't going to TJ Maxx in his retirement?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, no, he was. He's not going to TJ Maxx and Nordstrom Rack stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

I would rather die.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, he was home, but then he came to meet us and. And we ate there and I got carded.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, lovely.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's cute.

[Lily Padman]

It was cute.

[Dax Shepard]

Flattering.

[Lily Padman]

It was cute. And then the.

[Dax Shepard]

What was your cocktail at Chili's?

[Lily Padman]

It was a margarita.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

I didn't finish. It was bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Super sugary.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And I. I said, can I get a Casamigos one? But skinny. And those were, you know, two separate things, basically. And he was like, oh, I don't know, I have to ask. And I was like, charge me for the expensive Casamigos one, but just make it skinny.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. No way that's gonna happen back there.

[Lily Padman]

It didn't happen.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

I don't know what happened, but it tasted very.

[Dax Shepard]

That cocktail.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So was it so beautiful in Georgia? Is it green as hell right now? Spring?

[Lily Padman]

It's pretty green. Green. Yeah. It's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

It's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

It's nice. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But any thoughts of moving back while you're there?

[Lily Padman]

No, I never have that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you never have that.

[Lily Padman]

I have. I have, like, oh, like, I'm glad I touched down here a couple times a year.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, have you had the thought I had in Michigan, which is like, oh, my gosh, I could live in the super nice neighborhood now.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Because that's what really me up. That's what had me almost getting a house on a certain lake in Michigan.

[Lily Padman]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Just like, oh, I used to drive back, buy the house, you know, I mean, every time I went to West Bloomfield or anywhere, which is regular, is one stretch Pontiac Trail. And look at these mansions with these huge yards. And they're on Long Lake, I think, Lower Straits, upper Streets. And. Yeah. The notion that I could live there became very intoxicating.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, I could almost not resist. I thought better of it at the end.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I had found a house and I was flying there to get it because I was just like, wow, I can't believe I can live where the best players lived.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. So that's interesting. I don't have that. I mean, I definitely drive around there and I think like, you know, one

[Dax Shepard]

difference I think between you and I as kids, I coveted wealth.

[Lily Padman]

I. Okay, I didn't covet wealth in the same way you did, but I still did have like aspirations to have a lot of wealth. Like. And we didn't. We lived in the nice house that. Well, that is the difference.

[Brandi Carlile]

Difference.

[Lily Padman]

We lived in a nice house, a. But a modest, nice house. Like it. My parents would get mad because they would say like, it's really nice like it is.

[Dax Shepard]

I've seen it. It's a big, big house by American standards. It's like a 4,000 square foot house.

[Lily Padman]

Less than that. But it is. Yeah, it is. But it's. Yes, it is. It's a.

[Dax Shepard]

In like an upscale neighborhood.

[Lily Padman]

It's in a subdivision.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

This. I was trying to teach Jess about subdivisions. He didn't understand them.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Lily Padman]

Being from la, he was fighting with me about suburbs because like you don't really understand suburbs.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. And he was like, what sub you live in?

[Lily Padman]

Well, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't even say subdivision, you say sub. Did you say sub?

[Lily Padman]

Well, no, cuz we didn't say. We said neighborhood. Okay, so what neighborhood do you live in? But I don't even say that to people who don't understand it cuz they don't even understand what that means.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Lily Padman]

So I said, you know, cuz sometimes I like to do suburban Fridays here, which is as. Going to a movie on Friday afternoon and then going to dinner at the Americana.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

It feels so suburban to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Lily Padman]

And. And I was. We did that. We watched Devil Rose Prod and then we went to the Italian restaurant at the Americana and you know, they bring out the bread. It's just all so suburban.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And I was feeling very nostalgic and I was talking about the suburbs and he was like, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, Burbank is a suburb. He grew up in Burbank.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And I was like, no. And then he of course had to look up on ChatGPT, where of course it says it is.

[Dax Shepard]

And, and sure, Burbank is a suburb of la.

[Lily Padman]

Exactly. Technically it is a suburb.

[Dax Shepard]

But a subdivision is a very specific thing.

[Lily Padman]

Well, that's what I said. But you don't have subdivisions. Like a real suburb.

[Dax Shepard]

To me, someone who lives. Grew up in New York, there are three or four streets. You enter the subdivision on and. And through those three or four streets a web of streets are connected to it. And it's its own little world. House up, it's on a main road and. Yeah, yeah. And that's how everything was built where I grew up in Michigan.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

In my elementary, you'd go, what sub do you live in? And it was either Heritage Farms, Axford Acres, LaSalle Gardens. There were only four options.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, so for us. Yeah. What neighborhood do you live in?

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

And it's a huge neighborhood, like 800 houses.

[Dax Shepard]

Housers. Big development.

[Lily Padman]

So it was really exciting. For Halloween, you wanted to go in Riverbrook, you know. Yeah, I was really excited.

[Dax Shepard]

It was Riverbrook, the nicest of.

[Lily Padman]

And no, that's what I'm saying.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. There was a nicer sub.

[Lily Padman]

So many.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

So many. So there were St. Ives. That was really, really fancy.

[Dax Shepard]

It's also funny.

[Lily Padman]

It is so funny. So that's. And like, I had friends who lived in these, you know, and sugar.

[Dax Shepard]

Sugar tits.

[Lily Padman]

I can't believe I'm forgetting this.

[Brandi Carlile]

Is.

[Lily Padman]

That's just because coffee. But anyway. Yes. There are some areas. It's like, oh, my God, if you live there, like, you've really made it.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I tell you the coveted wealth part?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So on the weekends, very, very regular activity for us, maybe even every other weekend, we would leave our shitty welfare apartment and we would get mom's Pinto and we would drive to Bloomfield Hills.

[Lily Padman]

That was enabled overhead.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You know, it's 25 miles away. Not a subdivision. It is a suburb. It's an area.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, got it.

[Dax Shepard]

And we would pull up to the end of driveways and stare at the house. And my mom would say, these people went to college. Like, if you want to live here, these people went to college. Then she'd drive to another nice house. This person's probably a doctor or they're a lawyer, you know, like, if you like that, this is how you get it. And we did that all the time. So I do think that compounded my obsession with, like, wealth in like, oh, my God, that's so out of reach. And we want that thing. So. Yeah. The lake with the basketball houses. I was very primed.

[Lily Padman]

That used to be a thing. Like. Yeah. When we were going on vacations, we just drive around and look at houses.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so fun. I love it. I still love.

[Lily Padman]

It's weird now that I'm thinking about that. Like, I would never go on a vacation and do that. But we did it all the time. Anytime we went somewhere in a car, it was. Yeah. We would go to neighborhoods and drive around and look at. At houses.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Strange.

[Dax Shepard]

See how the other folks live, I guess.

[Lily Padman]

But like, I don't know. So funny. It's all so funny.

[Dax Shepard]

We're watching Zillow Gone Wild. We're now addicted to it. We have a guest coming up. Don't have to deduce how who that would be.

[Lily Padman]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

But if you haven't seen Zillow Gone Wild, it's from the Instagram account, Zillow Gone Wild. So it's these crazy listings on Zillow.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And the show goes and visits these houses and. And there was the cutest Indian couple last night.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

In Orlando, Florida.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh.

[Lily Padman]

A lot of them there.

[Dax Shepard]

And they lived in a castle. It looked like Excalibur Hotel in Vegas.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And inside were, like, swords and all this stuff.

[Lily Padman]

And they were Indian stuff in there or like.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it was all, like, knights and stuff.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Brandi Carlile]

Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And it just. It's the whole. The whole tableau was so cute. Because they're from India. Right. And the dad is like, clearly, he's been successful here.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, look at this. This guy in a castle in America. This is making me so happy. Like, you would not want to live in this castle.

[Lily Padman]

I know I want it.

[Dax Shepard]

But there was something so

[Lily Padman]

idea of a man.

[Dax Shepard]

This guy's in America. Five acres in a castle in Camelot. Yes. And then they show the children. I guess the children talk them into buying the house. And the children. It was on ebay, which I didn't even know they sold homes on ebay. Yeah. It was just really cute because the mom did all the talking. A lot of it was very. Followed a lot of my stereotypes.

[Lily Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

But in the. The adorable way. The things I love about, like, she handled all the talking. He just kind of sat there. He nodded, and then he got to show his sword. You know, like, when it was time, it was time to do, like, the sword stuff. And then the cute thing was, eventually we saw the kids.

[Lily Padman]

How old are they?

[Dax Shepard]

In their twenties.

[Brandi Carlile]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Taking advantage of their parents.

[Dax Shepard]

And this son had, like, a long ponytail, fucking tattoo style everywhere. And I was like, these second generation.

[Lily Padman]

I know. It's so sad.

[Dax Shepard]

Actually, you're talking about your brother just made me think of the whole scenario. And I was like, oh, yeah, man. You got. Like, if you're. If you're immigrating here from India, like, you have a lot coming your way. There's so many challenges for you. There's racism, there's this and that. You got to find your footing, and then the reward is you'll give your kids everything, and they will likely go berserk American style.

[Lily Padman]

Well, it's all connected. It's. You're gonna go berserk, America style. Because you have to be American.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

You have to very quickly assimilate into this culture and be whatever it needs you to be. And you don't really know how.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just a hard road. They, they, they, they travel and I want to honor them. It's like, what an experience. You know, you, you, you, you go through hell, Helen. Back.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

To make it here and to provide this opportunity. And they're like, I think, dad, I'm gonna blow joints and get.

[Lily Padman]

That's why I'm such a good daughter.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes.

[Lily Padman]

I've always been a good daughter.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, you mean, you mean because I did do a crazy thing and you could be.

[Dax Shepard]

It, it worked out. So you could have been moving back at 36 years old and you could have been in this doc about Zillow.

[Brandi Carlile]

No, no, no.

[Lily Padman]

That's not in, that was not in my cards. Maybe I wouldn't have had all this, but I would have figured out something.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We have much different assessments of ourselves. Had this not worked out for me, I would be penniless.

[Lily Padman]

That's so crazy that you think that.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. So I was just talking about it with Kristen. We were talking about somebody and it was like, just get a job. Right? Like, just get a job or you didn't get the management position. Get a job.

[Lily Padman]

Just do it. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was, I was like enjoying that, being a little judgmental. And then I was like, you know, hon, if I'm being dead honest, like, I could not. I couldn't have a job. I could be an Uber driver. I could be at 7:11 if there's no manager. But I could not at this point have a 30 year old boss who I thought was dumb and was making me do stupid things. I couldn't do it. I'd rather be penniless. I just don't have it in me.

[Lily Padman]

What if you have a family? You can't just choose to be penniless. You have to support your family.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a family. Well, luckily there are. I would be an Uber driver. I would be something where I could be an independent contractor. What I'm saying, I really have always been terrible at. Yeah, and I'm admitting it. I've not been great when I have idiot bosses and most people have idiot bosses. I'm not talking about good bosses. But your odds of getting a good boss are.

[Lily Padman]

Well, even if you have a good boss, you're not going to see eye to eye on everything at all. And you're not going to be quiet about that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Lily Padman]

But listen, can you work on it?

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, no, no, no. I know who I am. I'm 51.

[Lily Padman]

No, no, now. I don't mean now. I mean now. If this was. Well, it would have happened much earlier. It would have happened earlier in life, I think. We can't tell people they can't change these behaviors because, like, you can. You can.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no, I'm telling those people you probably gotta be an Uber driver. You need to be something. Something where you don't have a boss.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, yeah, sure. You can be something where you don't have a boss or you can work on yourself and. And decide, like, okay, this boss is annoying. Like, I hate him, and I hate that he's telling me what to do. And guess what? I need a job and I need to support my family and I can go home and forget about this. Per. Like you.

[Dax Shepard]

You're. You're 100, right? That's how people should be. I completely agree with you.

[Lily Padman]

People can.

[Dax Shepard]

That's how people should be.

[Lily Padman]

And they can be.

[Dax Shepard]

I am not that way.

[Lily Padman]

I disagree. You. You don't give yourself enough credit for change. You've changed a lot. And it's again, as you say, like, it's when push comes to shove. But that's what would. This would require. You would be.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm just telling on myself. You know, I've got some bad characteristics.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

This is one of them. I know you don't do well with authoritarian presences, but I think you don't.

[Lily Padman]

I don't, but I. I think you. You could in. In a specific circ, given your life had gone a different way.

[Dax Shepard]

That's why I couldn't direct commercials. I did a few. I got through them.

[Lily Padman]

I know you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You were in one.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was fine that day. I didn't piss off the client.

[Lily Padman]

You were great.

[Dax Shepard]

But I didn't like it so much that I'm like, I would rather not direct if that's how.

[Lily Padman]

We're already rich. So this is my point. If you. If you. You weren't.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And you needed the job. You didn't need.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we have an example, so. I was broke when I worked for cpk.

[Lily Padman]

I know, but.

[Dax Shepard]

And I couldn't do it. I couldn't have him tell me I got a six.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Or a seven on my punctuality when I had been early every day. I.

[Lily Padman]

It's rude.

[Dax Shepard]

I couldn't resist.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I just couldn't. I couldn't Handle the injustice.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

And I lost that job. Or I quit it.

[Lily Padman]

That's okay, though. You lost a job to me.

[Brandi Carlile]

That's okay.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. He. That was weird. He told you.

[Dax Shepard]

I bet Corbett told him to do that.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Brandi Carlile]

Of course.

[Lily Padman]

Not his fault, necessarily, but whatever. You quit because you're like, I can't work for this corporation that is. Is gaslighting me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Lying to me.

[Lily Padman]

And I won't do it, so I'm quitting. That's fine. I, in fact, think in some ways, that's noble.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

That doesn't mean that you couldn't have gone to a different job.

[Brandi Carlile]

Mm.

[Lily Padman]

And worked for someone.

[Dax Shepard]

I was so lucky that I had a job for 14 years.

[Lily Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

But my bosses were my mom and my brother.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, but in. Sometimes that's the worst that can be

[Dax Shepard]

because we already knew how to deal with each other. You're right. A lot of family businesses, it does that. That part gets tricky. It worked great for us because my mom knew.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The more I stay out of his business and the more responsibility I give him, the better he'll.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So she just stayed the fuck out of the way. And almost every year, I got more and more responsibilities where I was.

[Lily Padman]

Oh. Oh, my gosh. The breast. The colostrum has already.

[Dax Shepard]

Did they make you show an id? They did.

[Lily Padman]

Well, if you take a sip and you taste alcohol, let me know.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. You'll know if there's alcohol in it. How will you know if there's alcohol in it?

[Lily Padman]

Because you'll drink the whole thing in one sip.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll ask Rob if he can run up and get a pack of Camel Lights.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, you mean after you're done with it.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I'll figure out where to get cocaine.

[Lily Padman]

I know. I know. If you did. If there was alcohol and you drank it and you relapsed and then you did cocaine and, like, we could sue.

[Dax Shepard]

Erewhon, I don't think.

[Lily Padman]

And that would. Oh, a hundred percent. We would.

[Dax Shepard]

After the point I just made, I would never.

[Lily Padman]

Well, I'm cutting that, obviously, so that we can sue, and then that will be so exciting. Talk about buying a house in Bloomington Hills or whatever with the suing money. The Suingfield Hills Sugarloaf. My God. That was gonna kill me. Sugarloaf had really big houses. How's the colostrum?

[Dax Shepard]

This thing is delicious.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Oh, good.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm willing to show my ID to get it.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, see?

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Look at that.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know if that's true, but.

[Brandi Carlile]

Oh, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to do some facts.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, let's do some facts. So this is, like, all connected because this is for Brandy Carlisle.

[Dax Shepard]

And she grew up modestly and she could now buy.

[Lily Padman]

She said.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And she could definitely buy a house on upper straights, middle straights, or lower straits.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Or Long Lake. Those are the big boys. I really liked her.

[Lily Padman]

I know. She was fantastic.

[Dax Shepard]

I really, really, really liked her. What I liked most, I was talking to Phineas about her. What I love is how unapologetically ambitious she is. And she doesn't pretend she's not. And I love that. And I think it's weirdly a good message to put out there because I think lot of people think one need only be a genius artist, and that's not. You gotta call all the clubs and get on open mic night. And, like, you know, there's just a ton of ambition.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

In the mix too.

[Lily Padman]

I agree. Yeah. Okay. Our civil partnerships. Okay. I was looking up the Silver partnership and. And gay marriage timeline in England. Okay. So same sex marriage in England and Wales became legal on March 13, 20, 2014. Civil partnerships were 2005. And I looked up because she said those had to be, like, very secular. And that's correct. They must remain legally secular, meaning the registration process cannot include religious words, music, or hymns.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. Would they send a monitor there to make sure that didn't happen in your ceremony?

[Lily Padman]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just the maybe honor agreement or whatever they call it.

[Lily Padman]

Honor system. Maybe. I don't know. But yeah. Oh, was Ross Kunle the drummer? Did he play on Tapestry, the album Tapestry? Carol King? Yes, he did. He did do that. He did do that.

[Dax Shepard]

Does that.

[Lily Padman]

He did it and he does it. Oh, you said you, like, invented a reality or like a show or something where you don't know the person's age but you hear their voice and because she was on the phone with her wife, her now wife, and thought she

[Dax Shepard]

was an old lady.

[Lily Padman]

Old lady.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

That is a current. That's currently a reality show.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it is.

[Lily Padman]

It's called Age of Attraction. It's on Netflix.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my goodness.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And you want to hear the trailer?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Because we might have to watch this with the kids when Zillow runs out.

[Brandi Carlile]

I have dated guys who are my age because it was the right thing to do and it didn't work out. Obviously

[Lily Padman]

here you'll be dating and even committing without ever knowing how old your partner is committing.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you ready?

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. I don't know if these guys are

[Lily Padman]

my grandpa's age, but you don't know

[Dax Shepard]

who the Spice Girls are? I couldn't name 1. Best 3 minute date I've ever had. I'm not gonna lie.

[Brandi Carlile]

I like Mommy. You do? Do you have mommy issues?

[Dax Shepard]

If you're not as hot as my

[Brandi Carlile]

mom, I'm not gonna marry you.

[Dax Shepard]

Huh.

[Lily Padman]

If you feel as if you found that, all that's left is revealing your age.

[Brandi Carlile]

I am.

[Dax Shepard]

Got your seatbelt on. Oh, my God. I didn't even know there were 60 year olds here. Well, okay, I was gonna say my only issue with the show as I'm seeing it is they get to see each other. So it's like but or leave this

[Lily Padman]

experience the same way you entered it alone.

[Brandi Carlile]

I'm definitely worried.

[Dax Shepard]

What would my family think? Children.

[Brandi Carlile]

Yeah. And you hated babysitting. You need someone.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, we got it. Yeah, I guess that shows really more about how well can you hide your age? Because we're seeing the people.

[Lily Padman]

We are seeing them.

[Dax Shepard]

So there's a lot of shockers. Like clearly what's going to be the shocker is a lot of people are much older than they look and a lot of people are much younger than they are.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, but maybe. What? Yes, but I think it is saying like that is what they look. These are the people people. So. So who cares what their age is?

[Dax Shepard]

It's just a number, Monica.

[Lily Padman]

It's just a number.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's what.

[Lily Padman]

That's what they're trying to do.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Anyway, people are watching that.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna watch that.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I bet the kids would like that report back.

[Lily Padman]

And that's it. Really Not a lot of facts.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I really enjoyed her immensely.

[Brandi Carlile]

Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I really like her.

[Brandi Carlile]

I love her.

[Dax Shepard]

I love her. All right.

[Lily Padman]

Love you.