Caroline Fraser (on serial killers)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Caroline Fraser on Serial Killers

Episode Release Date: August 6, 2025
Guest: Caroline Fraser, Pulitzer Prize-Winning Author
Host: Dax Shepard with Monica Padman

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard, alongside Monica Padman, welcomes Pulitzer Prize-winning author Caroline Fraser. Renowned for her insightful works like Prairie Fires and God's Perfect Child, Church, Fraser delves into her latest exploration of a dark and intricate subject in her new book, "Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers."

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Background and Personal Experience

[03:35] Dax Shepard:
"So you grew up in Seattle in the 60s and 70s. And I want to talk first a little bit about the Christian Science book, God's Perfect Child living and dying in the Christian Science Church. So it's rare that I get to talk to someone who grew up Christian Scientists. And that was your experience?"

Caroline Fraser shares her personal history, growing up within the Christian Science church—a belief system that has seen a significant decline since its peak in the 1970s. She reflects on the chilly and doctrinaire environment of the church, emphasizing the lack of emphasis on the Bible compared to Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health, which she describes as "possibly the most boring book ever written." Fraser recounts her troubled relationship with her devout Christian Scientist father, highlighting the stringent beliefs that often led to neglect of medical care.

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Christian Science: Beliefs and Decline

[06:17] Dax Shepard:
"So your father. This is curious to me. Your father had a PhD from Columbia."

Fraser explains the foundational tenets of Christian Science, notably the belief that the physical world is an illusion. This philosophy, especially the rejection of conventional medical treatment, has contributed to the decline of the church due to insurmountable health-related consequences and an inability to attract new members. She underscores the historical context, noting the Nixon administration's ties with Christian Scientists, which influenced legislation allowing religious exemptions to medical treatments, inadvertently fostering environments prone to higher rates of avoidable deaths.

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Lead Poisoning and Behavioral Impacts

[21:04] Dax Shepard:
"Are you able to aggregate any public data from Tacoma in general? Are they over indexing as a total population for certain things?"

Fraser introduces a compelling theory connecting lead poisoning to the prevalence of serial killers in the Pacific Northwest, particularly in Tacoma, Washington. She outlines how industrial activities, especially the Asarco smelter, significantly increased lead contamination in the area. Drawing connections between high lead exposure and aggressive, impulsive behavior, Fraser posits that the environmental factors may have inadvertently contributed to the emergence of notorious serial killers from the region, such as Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway.

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Serial Killers of the Pacific Northwest

[34:07] Caroline Fraser:
"Well, it was quite disrupted because he's born in a foundling home. Essentially, his mother gets pregnant outside wedlock."

Fraser delves into the backgrounds of infamous serial killers from Tacoma:

• Ted Bundy: Born in a foundling home, experienced early familial disruptions, and grew up in a lead-polluted environment.
• Gary Ridgway: Convicted of 49 murders, with evidence suggesting higher lead exposure during formative years.
• Robert Lee Yates: Known for multiple homicides, also emerging from regions with significant industrial lead contamination.

These cases illustrate a potential pattern linking environmental toxins to violent behaviors, although Fraser acknowledges the complexity and multifaceted nature of such criminal psychology.

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Decline in Crime and Serial Killers

[32:33] Dax Shepard:
"The decline is generally attributed to advancements in forensic science, policing, criminal justice, and technology, making it harder for serial killers to avoid capture."

Fraser discusses the notable decrease in active serial killers from nearly 300 in the 1970s to fewer than 50 in recent decades. She attributes this decline to improvements in forensic techniques, enhanced inter-agency communication, and the advent of advanced technologies that assist law enforcement in tracking and apprehending perpetrators more efficiently. Despite the reduction, Fraser points out that an estimated 500 serial killers remain at large in the United States, underscoring an ongoing concern in public safety.

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The True Crime Phenomenon and Its Ethics

[37:13] Dax Shepard:
"What do you think the ethics are of true crime? And why are women predominantly the creators and the audience of true Crime?"

The conversation shifts to the True Crime genre, where Fraser examines its popularity, particularly among women. She references Ann Rule's contributions and suggests that engaging with true crime offers a sense of protection—understanding the minds and backgrounds of criminals to stay safe. Fraser also critiques the sensationalization inherent in true crime media, advocating for a more contextualized and holistic approach to understanding violent crimes beyond individual case studies.

Furthermore, Fraser addresses the issue of "Missing White Woman Syndrome," highlighting the disparity in media coverage where crimes against women of color receive significantly less attention, perpetuating systemic biases and neglect in societal narratives.

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Advancements in Forensic Science and Future Implications

[43:15] Caroline Fraser:
"There have of course caught the Golden State Killer, who you mentioned that was the Big one. But I think there have and a couple others whereby they can go back and they can find."

The role of genetic science, particularly DNA analysis, is emphasized as a game-changer in solving cold cases. Fraser underscores successes like the capture of the Golden State Killer, made possible through modern forensic methods. She also touches upon neurological developments—such as the impact of brain injuries on violent behavior—and suggests that these scientific advancements should inform future approaches to preventing and understanding violent crimes.

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Conclusion

Caroline Fraser's interview on Armchair Expert provides a deep dive into the complex interplay between environmental factors, religious beliefs, and psychological predispositions in shaping the behaviors of serial killers. Her exploration of lead poisoning as a potential catalyst for violent tendencies offers a unique perspective that bridges criminology with environmental science. Additionally, Fraser's insights into the True Crime genre provoke thoughtful discussions on media ethics and societal biases.

As the episode concludes, Fraser leaves listeners with a reflective understanding of how intertwined societal structures and individual behaviors contribute to the emergence of such heinous crimes, urging a multidisciplinary approach to effectively address and prevent future atrocities.

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Notable Quotes:

• Caroline Fraser [06:25]:
  "That's a foundational tenet of the religion, is that the physical world doesn't exist and that it's just an illusion, a kind of fantasy that we're all having."

• Dax Shepard [32:33]:
  "The decline is generally attributed to advancements in forensic science, policing, criminal justice, and technology, making it harder for serial killers to avoid capture."

• Caroline Fraser [37:13]:
  "This is a fascinating phenomenon. I think, you know, Ann Rule had a lot to do with this because her relationship to true crime, I mean, she was making a living at it as a single mom..."

---

This in-depth summary encapsulates the essence of Caroline Fraser's discussions on serial killers, environmental influences, and the True Crime genre, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the episode's key insights and thematic explorations.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan shepherd and I'm joined by Lily Padman. We have a Pulitzer Prize winning author on today, Caroline Frazier. She's got many great books, Prairie Fires, God's Perfect Child, Church. And she has a new book out now called Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers.

[Monica Padman]

We love serial killers. You you. A show on Netflix.

[Dax Shepard]

Please enjoy. Caroline Fraser. We are supported by Quints. Ooh, we love quints.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

He's an object expert. He's an insurance.

[Monica Padman]

In New York, it's seltzer. They call it seltzer and it's different.

[Dax Shepard]

And they're not moving off of it.

[Monica Padman]

No, they're not.

[Dax Shepard]

You and I were alive when New York seltzer water was all the rage. Do you remember that whole era of our lives where those were everywhere? Those little bottles?

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And they came in flavors. Oh, Black cherry maybe was a popular one. Yeah, I remember those hit the market and my father just couldn't get enough.

[Monica Padman]

Of them he loved.

[Dax Shepard]

He went all in on the seltzer.

[Monica Padman]

Fun.

[Dax Shepard]

It's funny, the arc of things that are novel.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

How exciting they are. And they almost seem like, oh, well, these are going to be around forever and then everyone just tires of them. Yeah, that's my prediction with AI generated media.

[Caroline Fraser]

Oh, I hope so.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's like, really interesting at first. And the more you see of it, you're like, oh, yeah, I get it. They can do anything. And really, who cares?

[Monica Padman]

Except those babies. They make really cute babies. Baby videos. They get me. Every time you be falling for any of the baby videos, you're going to get some now that we are talking about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you grew up in Seattle in the 60s and 70s. And I want to talk first a little bit about the Christian Science book, God's Perfect Child living and dying in the Christian Science Church. So it's rare that I get to talk to someone who grew up Christian Scientists. And that was your experience?

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah, they're all disappearing. I mean, demographically, they just kind of peaked during the 70s and then just fell off a cliff. Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Caroline Fraser]

And now they're all dying because they don't accept medical care. And they have never figured out how to draw people to the religion. Really. I mean, it's a very chilly kind of experience to go to a Christian Science church.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Caroline Fraser]

Because it's just reading. You know, people just read Mary Baker Eddy's book Science and Health, which is possibly the most boring book ever written.

[Dax Shepard]

Do they read the Bible as well?

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah, but it's kind of secondary.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, interesting in a way.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So even in just researching you, I'm embarrassed to admit I had no clue that that had been invented by a.

[Caroline Fraser]

Woman, that religion, and she died in 1910. And they kind of pretended that she didn't really die.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, they did.

[Monica Padman]

They made her, like a deity.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah. I mean, she's buried in this spectacular cemetery in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in this monument where you kind of can't tell is somebody actually buried here.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Caroline Fraser]

And they put a phone, famously, in her tomb in case she resurrected herself so that she.

[Monica Padman]

No, it's like, let me out.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's connected to a live phone line. Well, it was church.

[Caroline Fraser]

I don't know what the status of it is now.

[Dax Shepard]

I'd love to get the number for that. Just drive her crazy in her.

[Monica Padman]

No, you don't want her to haunt you.

[Dax Shepard]

What were the unique circumstances by which she was able to write a book that was then taken on and practiced by so many people?

[Caroline Fraser]

Well, A lot of it had to do with the, you know, failures of medical care at the time because there were so many things that you could get that you couldn't really treat. And a lot of doctors were quacks or didn't know what they were doing. And so, you know, if you got TB or something, I mean, it was just. There were a lot of things that were a death sentence. And so anybody who came along and said, oh, you know, if you pray about this, if you know the truth, that was their big kind of formula, then everything will be resolved and you'll be fine.

[Dax Shepard]

So your father. This is curious to me. Your father had a PhD from Columbia.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Caroline Fraser]

In education.

[Dax Shepard]

In education. And yet he was a devout Christian scientist and he did not believe in matter.

[Caroline Fraser]

That's right. Yeah. That's a foundational tenet of the religion, is that the physical world doesn't exist and that it's just an illusion, a kind of fantasy that we're all having.

[Dax Shepard]

Kind of the matrix kind of simulation. There may be ahead of the curve on the sim.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Weird.

[Dax Shepard]

How long into it were you going along with it? When did you start having some major disagreements? Or can you recall in your own life when you started going, is this possibly how it all works?

[Caroline Fraser]

Part of my problem always was my relationship with my father because he was so difficult. And I just kind of kept wishing he would go away. Can we get rid of this guy?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And did you sense your mother was in accord with how you were evaluating him, or was she?

[Caroline Fraser]

No, she was not raised in the church. He was. And so he was incredibly devout and kind of doctrinaire about everything. And I don't think I, as a child, sort of consciously thought, oh, this is a load of crap, or something. Not until I was, like, in high school. But I associated the belief so much with him because he was so into it. And he would sit on the couch, and he always kept the books next to the couch and would read sometimes, and we would kind of have to sit at his feet and listen to this wisdom. And, you know, and he was always sort of enforcing the belief. If I got sick, for example, and threw up in the car or something, that was like a big deal.

[Dax Shepard]

What was the solution for that?

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah, well, the whole way it was framed was that these things are kind of your fault.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline Fraser]

Because you're not practicing.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, you're not.

[Dax Shepard]

Manifestations of impurity kind of.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes. And manifestation is actually a huge word. Oh, it is in science and health.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, maybe I should join that came Very organically to me. Maybe you would be horrible. No, I would be a bad fad member. I'm kind of attached to matter as a concept.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

What prompted you to write the book?

[Caroline Fraser]

At the time that I started, the church was going through this kind of big crisis where they had invested all this money. It was kind of their last ditch attempt to invest a bunch of money in a TV and news organization that they were trying to launch. And by way of this, they were going to attract new members and appear on the kind of international stage. And they had very high hopes for this thing. And yet they made a bunch of mistakes. They invested too much money.

[Dax Shepard]

Turns out the TV business is kind of hard. You need to be an expert to be profitable.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes. And at the same time, in the 80s, there were all these, what they called the child cases, which were various cases around the country where Christian Zion's parents were prosecuted for the deaths or neglect of their children who had died under really pretty grotesque and preventable circumstances. And I think prosecutors by that time had just gotten sick of this whole phenomenon. And we're like, we're gonna make sure to kind of put the kibosh on this by prosecuting a few people.

[Dax Shepard]

But you do explore in your book there was a moment where they had lobbyists, where they were effective at getting themselves kind of inoculated from that type of prosecution. Right. How did that work?

[Caroline Fraser]

I mean, ironically, this was during the 70s at the same time that Nixon had ascended to his position of power. And a couple of Nixons most powerful lieutenants, Bob Haldeman and John Ehrlichman, were Christian Scientists. And some of the people who worked for them were Christian scientists, like this guy, Eagle Crow, who you may remember Eagle Crow. Eagle Crow was his name.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he native or. He just has a very native name.

[Caroline Fraser]

E G I L. Oh, wow, that is unfortunate.

[Dax Shepard]

I was like, it's a Native American Christian Scientist working for Nixon. This has got to be the most unique person.

[Caroline Fraser]

But any. Anyway, so there were these Christian Scientists in positions of power and they used that to basically kind of push through various federal acts, legislation, regulations that would allow mainly on the state level, but some on the federal level that would allow people to refuse vaccinations, for example, or any sort of healthcare under the.

[Dax Shepard]

Guise of religious freedom.

[Caroline Fraser]

That's right. These were called religious exemptions and they still exist in most states. And Oregon overturned theirs. Because one of the really terrible things about this religious exemption stuff is that all these other religious nuts, in addition to the Christianity, free ride on it yes. And so, like, in Oregon, there was this thing called the Church of the Firstborn who did not believe in any kind of health care for mothers having babies. And so all these women were having babies who died within a few days because they had problems giving birth or various other things that could have been addressed in a hospital setting.

[Dax Shepard]

The infant mortality rate for these Christian Scientists was some standard deviations above the national average. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Fraser]

The Christian Scientists had always had kind of carve outs in a weird way. And so, like, I was born in a hospital, but it was with a doctor who I think was friendly to Christian Scientists. They were kind of okay with glasses or dental care. Although I remember my father had his wisdom teeth pulled with no anesthetic. Anesthetic. So it was fungible.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. That's what always has been an issue for me is humans are full of contradictions. I don't think anyone has a monopoly on contradictions, but I do find that in religions in particular, the contradictions start piling up at such a degree. The Amish, they can't have anything electrical, but they can borrow their neighbor's car. Like, that's such a curious part. And I don't know how people make peace with the inconsistency.

[Monica Padman]

There's a lot of mental gymnastics that goes on to justify a lot of the things.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so in 2017, you wrote Prairie Friars. I'm laying this out because they share some connective tissue as we'll get into with Murderland, but Prairie Fires the American Dreams of Laura Ingalls Wilder. Am I saying Ingalls?

[Monica Padman]

Right?

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I didn't even know who she was, but she wrote.

[Monica Padman]

I do.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you read?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I was. When I was younger. Much younger. And then they made it into a show. And I watched the show, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What is it called? Prairie.

[Monica Padman]

Little House on the Prairie.

[Dax Shepard]

Little House on the Prairie. What drew you to write about?

[Caroline Fraser]

Well, I'd read the books as a kid and loved them. You know, I was always really into reading because I think it was a sort of way to learn about the world that was outside of the religious framework. And I loved those books. I mean, they're great adventure stories about a girl and her family, and they, you know, are sort of about family and domesticity and farming. And, you know, all my grandparents were farmers of one kind or another or most of them. So I think I kind of recognized my family's kind of immigrant journey to the Midwest and struggling to survive out on the plains. You know, all that seemed like it was adjacent to my family. Story. So that was kind of fascinating to me.

[Dax Shepard]

You won the Pulitzer for that, the National Book Critics Circle Award, numerous awards for that. Did that come as a surprise to you? Yes.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes, it did.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I would imagine, like you as a writer is not terribly different than me as an actor, which is like, I'm doing it for a long time. There's some period where I go, oh, right, we're not really in search of an Academy Award. That's really not what we're going to be getting in our lifetime.

[Monica Padman]

So.

[Dax Shepard]

And if it just happened out of nowhere, it might be surprising. So it must have been.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah, it was. It was a kind of a bolt out of the blue. I mean, I had no idea because, I mean, for one thing, it's a biography of a children's book author and they're respected, but maybe not the center of the literary universe in some ways.

[Dax Shepard]

And what do you think was the proprietary angle that made it so appealing and well received?

[Caroline Fraser]

I think a lot of it had to do with the history, you know, that I was kind of presenting her as a historical figure who had been through all these pretty major events.

[Dax Shepard]

We would modernly call her. Like, she'd be high on the ace score. She had a lot of trauma. If you look at her life. Endless uprooting, scary people maybe lurking around. I mean, it's a very heightened arousal. Childhood.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah. I mean, she was somebody who survived, like, really bizarre and terrifying catastrophes. You know, the locust invasion of the 1870s, in which, like, trillions of locusts fell out of the sky and destroyed their farm and their crops.

[Dax Shepard]

And one of the harshest winters of all time.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah. The hard winter of 1880. They practically froze and starved to death.

[Dax Shepard]

And then a crop failure one year. And that's all you're betting on. I mean, just one after.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah. And just sad. She had a child who died less than a month after he was born and their house burned down. So she sort of went through it all and then just survived for many years, kind of working at odd jobs. And then finally, you know, in her 60s, which is really pretty late to adopt a new career, she, with the help of her daughter, who kind of bullied her into it, started writing these memoirs, which turned into the fictional stories of the Little House books. She's writing them during another crisis. Cause it was, you know, the Dust bowl, and it just.

[Dax Shepard]

One of the hits won't stop.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes. And so that kind of unfolding all the history behind her life and the writing of the books, I think people really responded to the history, which is itself kind of harrowing. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Murderland. Very juicy. Our theme that we're exploring is in general, you're kind of attracted to violence or exploring violence. Yeah, that's like a theme that runs through a lot of these. Do you have an explanation for that fascination? Let me just say. Itunes. Very interested in violence.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah. I was thinking about that Viggo Mortensen movie, you know, a history of violence.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Fraser]

Because I think that phrase is meaningful to me. I guess it has a lot to do with being, you know, a kid in the 70s, which was an incredibly violent era. Crime rate was going up, up, up. Kind of topped out in the 80s.

[Dax Shepard]

The economy was stalled. You had the oil issues, Vietnam.

[Caroline Fraser]

So it was a really violent time, and everybody was kind of tearing their hair out, like, you know, why is this happening? You know, are we just terrible people?

[Dax Shepard]

You know?

[Caroline Fraser]

And it became this societal question, why is this happening? And people had all these sort of theories about we're losing our morals or people are not going to.

[Dax Shepard]

People are leaving the church. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Fraser]

So that's always a kind of perennial favorite. And at the same time, you have all these serial killers. I think for me, looking at the serial killers was just kind of one extreme.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And you're looking specifically at the Pacific Northwest, which both make sense, a. Because you're from there. I could see why you'd be interested in it. But the Pacific Northwest does have this eerie stereotype. It's lumber, it's aeronautics, it's Starbucks, it's serial killers.

[Monica Padman]

Is it associated? I didn't know that.

[Dax Shepard]

From the region, we have Ted Bundy, the Green Mile Killer. Gary ridgeway. He killed 49 people.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

49 people.

[Caroline Fraser]

That's a low end.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what he was convicted of.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah, yeah. Probably way more.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my gosh.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Robert Lee Yates, 13, folks. The i5 killer, the night Stalker, the Hillside Strangler.

[Caroline Fraser]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

This is the Mount Rushmore serial killers.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it really is.

[Dax Shepard]

So what have been the common explanations?

[Caroline Fraser]

People talked about the weather and the lack of light for, you know, much of the year. And also the Joan Didion people going to the west coast, running out of land. People who are sort of antisocial or sort of. They washed out elsewhere. They washed out on the east coast or Midwest or whatever. So they end up kind of trapped in this place. This is true of Alaska, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I was gonna say that. The reason that opinion is appealing to me is Alaska's number one per capita for serial Killers. And I've been there. And that too is like everyone there is like I had to get the. I like the anger by which that drove them to Alaska is pretty common.

[Monica Padman]

Definitely weather then.

[Dax Shepard]

Or just the spirit of who wants to go live in the middle of nowhere. I think is a curious. For a social primate, that's a curious desire. Okay, so those were kind of well worn explanations. And as you set out to write this book, what did you start discovering? We start the book weirdly with a lot of geology.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, you love geology.

[Dax Shepard]

I do love geology. So I wasn't bothered by it, but I was like, well, this is an interesting place to start is maps.

[Caroline Fraser]

Those explanations that we just talked about seemed like, you know, reasonable things to talk about, but they just never felt like enough. And I'm thinking about this, you know, the kind of aha moment of it came when I was. My husband and I were kind of thinking of moving back to the Northwest. And so I was looking at these pieces of property. There was an ad, a real estate ad for a piece of property on Vashon island, which is just across Puget Sound from Tacoma. And I read this ad and it said remediation required for arsenic or something like that. And I was like, what?

[Dax Shepard]

On an island with no industry?

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes. Ashon is just a kind of farm, you know.

[Dax Shepard]

Edenica.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes, yes. Strawberry farms were a big thing on Vachon when I was a kid. So I thought how the heck did Vashon get arsenic on it? And about five minutes later of googling, I see the smelter in Tacoma and that, that is the source of the arsenic on Vashon Island.

[Monica Padman]

What's the smelter?

[Caroline Fraser]

The smelter is the Asarco American Smelting and Refining Company which is. Which was built right in the center of the city of Tacoma. And the smelter was originally a lead smelter and then a copper smelter. But for years, like decade after decade, it's just pouring tons of arsenic and lead into the air. And so I said, hmm, that's interesting. I wonder what all that lead did to people. And like, again, you know, you Google lead and what you find out is that lead is associated with aggressive behavior. And kids especially who are exposed to lead show a tendency to become impulsive, irritable, aggressive, and in some cases violent.

[Dax Shepard]

It's replacing the calcium that should be there in your brain during development and you're impairing regions that would be in charge of impulse control and other things. So it's a structural damage in the wake of lots of lead poisoning.

[Caroline Fraser]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Quick question before we get into the nitty gritty of it. When you go into a book like this and you're curious about an alternative explanation, you don't start with an alternative explanation. You are just kind of open to discovering an alternative.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah. And this in particular is not something that I can prove. One of the things that was so intriguing to me about it was, you know, Ted Bundy grows up in Tacoma. Gary Ridgeway grows up just to the north of Tacoma. Charles Manson is imprisoned for five years on McNeil island just across from Tacoma. And so all three of these guys are kind of in the same place at the same time. And this answers your geology question because that line between the three of them just kind of leapt out at me like, oh, this is fascinating.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[Monica Padman]

Hi, I'm Monica Lewinsky. Welcome to Reclaiming. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours, something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Miley Cyrus, welcome to reclaiming. My 2013 is your 1998. I lost everything during that time in my personal life because of the choices I was making professionally. Chelsea Handler, welcome to reclaiming. I did have a teacher who instilled in me that I was going to do something special. And she was like, you're going to have an impact. Sophia Bush, welcome to reclaiming. You went all the way, you committed, and if it wasn't for you, you have the courage to. To tell the truth and get out. And I had to say that to women in my life, and I had to learn how to say it in the mirror to myself. This last decade for me has really been what I consider my own reclaiming, my own journey. My own reclaiming story is in the bones of this show. Please listen to Reclaiming on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. The town of AGDA in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex. But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn. The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption. His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant. Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.

[Dax Shepard]

I am the Archangel Michael.

[Monica Padman]

The whole town has been thrown into.

[Dax Shepard]

Chaos as the mayor is unable to carry out his duty. I would like to address you. All legal proceedings have been initiated.

[Monica Padman]

Join me, Anna Richardson and journalist Leo Chic for the mystic and the mayor as we investigate a story of Power, corruption and magic. Binge all episodes of the mystic and the Mayor exclusively and ad free right now on Wonder Plus. Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondery App.

[Dax Shepard]

How hard is it to kill a planet?

[Monica Padman]

Maybe all it takes is a little.

[Dax Shepard]

Drilling, some mining, and a whole lot of carbon pumped into the atmosphere. When you see what's left, it starts to look like a crime scene.

[Caroline Fraser]

Are we really safe? Is our water safe? You destroyed our tap.

[Dax Shepard]

And crimes like that, they don't just happen.

[Caroline Fraser]

We call things accidents.

[Monica Padman]

There is no accident. This was 100% preventable.

[Dax Shepard]

They're the result of choices by people. Ruthless oil tycoons, corrupt politicians, even organized crime. These are the stories we need to be telling about our changing planet. Stories of scams, murders and coverups that are about us and the things we're doing to either protect the earth or destroy it. Follow Lawless Planet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes of.

[Caroline Fraser]

Lawless Planet early and ad free right.

[Dax Shepard]

Now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[Caroline Fraser]

It's your man, Nick Cannon and I'm here to bring you my new podcast.

[Dax Shepard]

Nick Cannon at Night.

[Caroline Fraser]

I've heard y' all been needing some.

[Dax Shepard]

Advice in the love department. So who better to help than yours truly?

[Caroline Fraser]

Nah, I'm serious. Every week I'm bringing out some of.

[Dax Shepard]

My celebrity friends and the best experts in the business to answer your most intimate relationship questions. Having problems with your man?

[Caroline Fraser]

We got you catching feelings for your sneaky link. Let's make sure it's the real deal first.

[Dax Shepard]

Ready to bring toys into the bedroom?

[Caroline Fraser]

Let's talk about it. Consider this a non judgment zone to.

[Dax Shepard]

Ask your questions when it comes to.

[Caroline Fraser]

Sex and modern dating in relationships, friendships, situationships and everything in between, it's gonna be sexy, freaky, messy and you know what?

[Dax Shepard]

You'll just have to watch the show.

[Caroline Fraser]

So don't be shy, join the conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

And head over to YouTube to watch.

[Caroline Fraser]

Nick Cannon at night or subscribe on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. Want to watch episodes early and ad free? Join Wondery right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you able to aggregate any public data from Tacoma in general? Are they over indexing as a total population for certain things?

[Caroline Fraser]

That's one of the really frustrating things about Tacoma is is that Asarco controlled that area so completely and was so central to the economy during the time when it operated that they did not do and did not allow any, you know, wholesale testing of A lot of this stuff. There were some limited testing of kids involving arsenic, but not lead. And they certainly do know now how much lead. I mean, there's a GIS map generated by the Washington State Department of Ecology that will show you how much lead was in Ted Bundy's front yard and his backyard. And so you can see how much lead people were getting when and if.

[Dax Shepard]

You'Ve compared that data, say, the lead in Ted Bundy's front and backyard to the primary exposure of lead to kids and everyone in the 70s and 80s was lead gasoline being admitted from cars. What I read today was like 58% of lead was being absorbed from the exhaust of cars. So if that was the primary contributor to lead poisoning, how did that level of exhaust compare to the level that was just sitting in their yard? Like, if an average person was consuming X amount of lead, how much were these people living that close consuming?

[Caroline Fraser]

Well, for a place like Tacoma, it was a double whammy because it was leaded gas. But it was also significant amounts from the smelter. Chemists and scientists can actually identify the molecular component. You know, like in El Paso, another place that I talk about, they actually did studies that show that the lead that was polluting a lot of the city directly came from the smokestack, the asarco smokestack that was in El Paso.

[Dax Shepard]

They have a fingerprint.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes, they do. And I don't think they did that in Tacoma, but, I mean, since they have spent millions of dollars trying to clean up the lead, I think a good portion of that did come from the smelter.

[Monica Padman]

That's so interesting. Also, I'm sure it's not everyone who's exposed to lead becomes a serial killer, obviously, or becomes that impulsive, but maybe you have some predispositions that that pushes you over the edge.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah, potentially.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a whole theory that overlaps what you're suggesting. There is a lead crime hypothesis, as people will know or not know. From this period, mid-80s till now, we've seen homicides get cut in half. We've seen an overall huge reduction in crime. And there's innumerable theories. Freakonomics put forward the abortion explanation, Right. That you had a lot less unwanted kids entering the population. That's what you're seeing the result of. A lot of folks will say, well, the interconnectivity of police forces improves. So you saw this with Ted Bundy, right? He's like, moving from one place to another. It's just down the road, and no one knows the same Thing's happening one county over. So that's kind of a. And then there is this lead crime hypothesis that we see the outline of lead in fuel and in other places and that we're seeing now kind of the response to that. So, like, walk me through some of the people that you have outlined in this book and just kind of tell me how you think that fits in or doesn't fit in with any of these theories.

[Caroline Fraser]

I don't know that we're ever going to tease that apart in terms of, oh, we can assign this number to the abortion.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, there's no way to know.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah, I mean, it's very difficult. But they have done a number of studies looking at the connection between violent crime and psychopathy and lead exposure. So we know there's something going on there. I think the question is, how much do you assign to that? And what became a sort of, you know, obsession for me during COVID was sort of looking at where each of these guys grew up and what their lead exposure might have been. And some of them, you can't answer the question. But for the people who lived in Tacoma, it's pretty easy. You know, when I was sort of doing the research, you know, I looked at the smelter in Tacoma, which was owned by Asarco. I mean, they own stuff all over the west. But one of the other big lead and copper smelters they owned was in El Paso, right on the border across from Ciudad Juarez. And when I saw that, I thought, oh, there's no serial killer. That's from El Paso. Google that, what pops up. It's Richard Ramirez because he grew up there. He's not associated with it because he killed people in Los Angeles.

[Monica Padman]

This is the state killer.

[Caroline Fraser]

Richard Ramirez is the night stalker.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, the night stalker, right. Okay.

[Caroline Fraser]

1986, I think.

[Monica Padman]

Got it.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what was Ted Bundy's childhood like?

[Caroline Fraser]

Well, it was quite disrupted because he's born in a foundling home. Essentially, his mother gets pregnant outside wedlock. She's sent off kind of in shame, have this baby in a place that's run by nuns, and she has the baby and leaves it for two, three months. If you go and look at what psychologists and psychiatrists have talked about attachment theory. Yeah, that's a real issue. She goes back to get the baby, takes it home with her to her home in Philadelphia, which is fondly known at the time as the city of smelters, has incredible lead pollution. And so he grows up there. His mother remarries. He seems to have been confused about the Status of this stepfather. Like he thought maybe it was his real father. So there seems to have been a lot of confusion, a lot of anger about his mom. And you start seeing him acting out at a very young age and doing violent things. And that's another thing that all these guys have in common is they start having these fantasies about women, about murder, about rape, very young.

[Dax Shepard]

And did Ted ever say why he was doing it?

[Caroline Fraser]

It's one of the really frustrating things though about him is that they talked to him a lot. They got him to make statements, most of them hypothetical and a kind of, if I had done this, I would have done it that way. Because he wouldn't admit culpability.

[Dax Shepard]

Like OJ's book.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, if I had done it or whatever. Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Jesus.

[Caroline Fraser]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

So dark.

[Caroline Fraser]

But there's so many things we just don't know. We don't even know how many people he killed when he started killing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, the first we know about is an eight year old.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

That he took out of a house.

[Caroline Fraser]

This is a theory. We don't know for sure because she has never been found. He would never admit to it. Although in other cases where we know for a fact that he didn't kill the person, when he was asked about it, he would just say, no, no, I didn't do that. And it turns out he was right about those. In the case of Ann Marie Burr in Tacoma, who he may have killed when he was 14, he said stuff like, oh, I never went to that part of Tacoma, which is not true because his uncle lived around the corner. He said, I was too young to have done that. You know, the more somebody kind of embroiders on their denial, the more it kind of sounds like they're lying and.

[Monica Padman]

It isn't consistent with the other way.

[Caroline Fraser]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you think the ethics are of true crime? And why are women predominantly the creators and the audience of true Crime?

[Caroline Fraser]

This is a fascinating phenomenon. I think, you know, Ann Rule had a lot to do with this because her relationship to true crime, I mean, she was making a living at it as a single mom writing for detective magazines, but I think she also experienced it as a way of, like, the more I know about this, the safer I can be almost, and the safer my daughter will be. If we know who these people are, if we understand where they came from and how they do what they do, then it becomes a kind of protective.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's like having the knowledge.

[Caroline Fraser]

Right. That's now why so many women are drawn to it. But of course the ethics are just all over the place. The desire to sensationalize this stuff is almost overwhelming. It's undeniable that violence is a human health issue. You know, I mean, where does it come from? You know, why do so many men commit violent crimes? So I think it's legitimate to. To engage in conversations about it, to write books about it, to examine the history of it. And I also think it's useful to kind of pull it out of the standard treatment where you kind of have a silo. You know, you've got a book about Ted Bundy and a book about the Night Stalker and a book about Jack the Ripper or something, but you're not looking at the whole.

[Dax Shepard]

There's no synthesis of it.

[Caroline Fraser]

That's right. And so I think historically, it's useful to look at.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's very Malcolm Gladwell to kind of be like, this is what was going on for all these people.

[Caroline Fraser]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

There is a through line.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. My explanation has always been kind of intuitively just. We are all afraid of the thing that we have the highest probability of dying from. Although, ironically, we don't, because we don't care about diet and stuff, but the flashy stuff that we have no control over, we tend to fixate on. And there was this moment going around last year where women would ask men when the last time they talked about the Roman Empire was. I don't know if you saw this.

[Monica Padman]

How often do you think about it?

[Dax Shepard]

Think about it, talk about it? And it really did lead me down the path of like, well, that is. I recognize the reality of that. And then go further. World War II in color. What husband isn't watching World War II in color, and the wife is like, what the fuck is the obsession with World War II? But it occurred to me, that's how we die. We die in war. We have been dying in war at the level of tens of millions, and we're not even one generation out of it. My father was in Vietnam. You know, people went to Desert Storm. Like, that's how young men are gonna die. So guess what? We're pretty interested in war. And we consume it over and over again because that was the high likelihood of how we will die accidentally. And so it just kind of makes sense that women have found their way to being murdered by men or abused or hurt, and men are focusing on getting killed in a war.

[Caroline Fraser]

And there was that other sort of meme thing that happened about bears, you know, women.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's right. Would you rather be trapped if you're.

[Caroline Fraser]

Hiking alone in the wilderness, who would you rather encounter? A bear or a man?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that was a big thing.

[Dax Shepard]

And women pretty consistently said.

[Monica Padman]

Said bear. People said bear.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Guys, I don't know if that's the right decision. If we just look at statistically the kill rate of bears versus random bears, I. I think the message is important.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I can imagine walking through the woods and then seeing a random man. That is so terrifying. I don't know if it's more or less than a bear, but that's what I fear.

[Caroline Fraser]

My husband and I once did a sort of six, seven month stint at this place above the Rogue River. It was like a writer's retreat thing that didn't, you know, have electricity or whatever, and it was really remote. And we did see bears and mountain lions, which was very exciting. But the scariest thing that happened when we were out there was when this guy came hiking out there and he had a rifle with him, which he said was for bears.

[Monica Padman]

Right, right.

[Caroline Fraser]

But you never know really now.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly. Ooh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's talk about missing White woman syndrome.

[Monica Padman]

That just came up on a show I was watching You. The show you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

About a serial killer, basically.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah. It's a huge thing where white women are obsessed with other white women going missing or abducted or raped or murdered or whatever, when in fact, most violent crime is being experienced by women of color.

[Monica Padman]

It doesn't get all the headlines.

[Dax Shepard]

I watched a doc. Yeah. Compton had a serial killer that was worse than most of these other ones that got headlines, but he was killing black prostitutes and no one cared. Some astronomical number of them. And no one even put together that this was happening.

[Caroline Fraser]

Right. That Grim Sleeper killer in LA was killing women, most of whom were black, most of whom were prostitutes for decades, and nobody was really paying attention. And recently this guy made a documentary about that and actually went to the community and talked to people and they all just said nobody cared. Nobody's even been here to ask us these questions. Women who had been involved, women who had been attacked by this guy said, you're the first person who came and talked to us about it. So it's a huge.

[Monica Padman]

And even on the podcast and the true crime stories, it's like who you're choosing to put at the center of the story. Often it's a white woman because. Yeah, that gets more clicks.

[Dax Shepard]

What is genetic science? How is it shining a light on some of these cold cases?

[Caroline Fraser]

Oh, well, they've of course caught the Golden State Killer, who you mentioned that was the Big one. But I think there have and a couple others whereby they can go back and they can find. Even if they don't know who the person is, they can, using DNA from the case, they can locate a relative of some kind and kind of move forward until they can pinpoint the exact person. But I also think that all the stuff that we now know about neurology and brain development that should also be playing a part in how we sort of think about violent crime. Because we know now, I mean the whole football brain injury thing is huge because some of these guys had significant brain injury from being beaten or being in an accident or something. And so that I think is another thing that should be looked into.

[Dax Shepard]

Interestingly with that we just had a CT expert on. Weirdly the mechanism becomes the same as lead, which is it is an area of the brain that is now obstructing communication with other parts of the brain. And the result of that is. Yeah, a lot of unpredictable erratic behavior. Erratic, often violent behavior. Did you consider in this. Because another thing that I don't hear pushed forward a lot in all these different explanations which seems quite likely to me is the contagion effect of these things. So it's like, yeah, it had this enormous peak and serial killers seemed to beget other serial killers in the same way that reporting on suicides leads to outbreaks of suicides, that psychosomatic illnesses are contagious. When people see this in press and in the media, other people do it. How much do you think was it just a self fueling phenomena? I would say now it's been replaced with school shooters. We can easily identify these patterns of when they're heavily reported. All of a sudden we have another outbreak of them.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah. Although I wonder about that because the serial killers, the vast majority of them are motivated by the sexual compulsion. They're getting off on what they're doing. Whereas the mass shooters, that seems to be a slightly different phenomenon. I mean they're both obsessed with getting credit for what they do and the.

[Dax Shepard]

Publicity of it, notoriety.

[Caroline Fraser]

The mass murderers seem more motivated by that celebrity aspect, their manifestos and obsession with guns and so forth. But I think it's a different kink.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I can see that.

[Caroline Fraser]

Whereas the serial killers, the wiring got caused in some devastating way that left them with this sexual compulsion to do the same thing over and over again and achieve gratification through that. And that seems really different.

[Dax Shepard]

Now in all of this research and formulating this theory, did you have any vision forward? Do you have any, I mean prescriptions yeah. Any prescriptions?

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Caroline Fraser]

And I think what I wasn't doing was writing a kind of academic argument or a thesis about this because I was more interested in a subjective approach, one that kind of captured the era and the feeling of it and the look of it and my sort of memories of it, because that felt like a kind of drama that people could maybe relate to. There have been great works of academic histories of lead and the corruption that allowed lead to become such a huge factor in this country. So those are out there, you know, they've been done. I think I was after something a little less programmatic and more expressive or evocative of the era.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It feels like you felt like these stories were missing context.

[Caroline Fraser]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And that you wanted to provide this context. And then even furthermore, these things, which are incredibly low percentage things, these are statistically negligible, really. One in 13 million is the current estimate of serial killer, you know, but that in some ways these larger societal problems do feed into that downriver. This is yet one of the many downriver effects of this kind of corruption and greed and lack of accountability.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

When you were researching this book, did it make you more. Are you more paranoid now post writing this?

[Caroline Fraser]

No, I don't think so, because I think it was a factor of that time. I mean, I'm more paranoid probably about, like, keeping the door locked and the windows locked. I mean, that serial killer at the end, Israel Keys, who I kind of close with him, and he would always say, yeah, why don't people lock their window?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Caroline Fraser]

So I'm more aware of things like that, but I wouldn't call that paranoia.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that seems just sensible.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll tell him why. Laziness.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, just laziness.

[Caroline Fraser]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, well, Caroline, such a fascinating topic and such an interesting look at it and way to evaluate it. It's such a pleasure meeting you. Murder, Land, Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers. Seattle, Washington. Yeah. I mean, minimally. You have to be a little more optimistic because the trajectory has been pretty consistent. We are getting better at this somehow.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes. And crime is down, actually.

[Monica Padman]

We'll see what AI does.

[Dax Shepard]

There's something to be learned on that little spike during COVID that could be a telling when we fully understand what happened there. Oh, that's exact. Like, we have all these corollaries, but these corollaries now make this a little more compelling.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, thank you so much. I wish you tons of luck with the book.

[Caroline Fraser]

Thanks a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you Dare.

[Monica Padman]

Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at.

[Dax Shepard]

Hello, hello. Welcome back to the Big Apple. It's a scorcher today.

[Monica Padman]

It's hot out.

[Dax Shepard]

The only thing I was looking forward to about leaving Nashville, where the day I left, the day before I left, it was like 95. They do the real feel kind of like they would do in Michigan with the wind chill or what it really feels like.

[Monica Padman]

Uh huh.

[Dax Shepard]

And it was 95, but it felt like 100. And it did.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I was like, oh, and we'll be fine. Go up to New York, get a little fresh air. Yeah, it's 95 today.

[Monica Padman]

Today is hot. Yeah. Yesterday though, was, in my opinion, tolerable. Nice.

[Dax Shepard]

It was hot yesterday too. It was, I do think, real feel, real feel when you're surrounded by buildings. Yeah, it feels hotter. There's no breeze.

[Monica Padman]

It's true. But when I. So when I left the hotel, when I left the airport, I had a sweatshirt on. And I got to the hotel and I had to drop my bags. My room wasn't ready. And so then I was walking with my sweatshirt on for a while and I was like, I'm fine in my sweatshirt.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but you, I know you really.

[Monica Padman]

I'm an anomaly. Let's talk about this. Okay. So I went home to see my parents and it was, it's. It was so hot there.

[Dax Shepard]

Probably even hotter than Nashville. Right. It's a little bit further south.

[Monica Padman]

It felt similar, but yeah, it was, it was so hot. And. But as we know.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we looked up the humidity.

[Monica Padman]

We did.

[Dax Shepard]

It was 1% higher. Yeah, you're like, it's a little bit more humid and it was 1%.

[Monica Padman]

It's pretty much the same, but there's something a tiny bit different. And I was right. But yeah, so I went, I got to my parents house and I was like, oh, I'm gonna walk to the grocery store. And my parents were like, it's too hot. And I said, it's fine. It's close. It's very close.

[Dax Shepard]

How far did they live from the grocery store?

[Monica Padman]

Very close. Like, let's see, could you put it.

[Dax Shepard]

In miles or kilometers?

[Monica Padman]

Less than a mile.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Definitely less than a mile to me. No brainer.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then, you know, they're like, it's. It's too hot. And I was like, it's. I'm. It's fine. It's gonna be fine. And then it turned into this crazy, like, you can't. And I was like, they were like.

[Dax Shepard]

Worried you're Gonna die.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, they may.

[Dax Shepard]

They load you up with water and stuff.

[Monica Padman]

No. They were like, you can't go. Like, I'll drive you. And I was like, well, no, you don't. Don't drive. And then I was like, well, I'll just drive if you're that worried. And they're like, well, you can't drive because this car is here. And then my aunt was coming over, and it's like, she won't be able to get in. And I was like, well, I'll take mom's car. And like, you can't. She just bought it. You don't know how to drive that car. I was like, oh. I was there for five minutes, and I was like, I gotta get in.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm shocked you even agreed to drive a car which was shot down, but.

[Monica Padman]

I know I already was being like, I don't want to do this. It's fine. I'll just drive.

[Dax Shepard]

You were bending over backwards.

[Monica Padman]

I was. Thank you for acknowledging that. And. But then ultimately, I was like, I'm walking.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then I'm a big girl.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm a biggest girl in this house.

[Monica Padman]

I did. I said, I'm 37.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I live in LA. I'm okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Weeks away from 38.

[Monica Padman]

Well, just don't say that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So I left. I walked. It was very hot.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. At any point, did you think they were right?

[Monica Padman]

Okay. No. But I was starting to feel like. I think I'm getting, like, in my head about it.

[Dax Shepard]

A little anxiety, panic attack.

[Monica Padman]

And then I made a whole story in my head where I was like, this is what they do. They. Everything's so scary.

[Dax Shepard]

They planted the fear.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. They planted the fear. And now I'm, like, feeling fearful about a thing I have zero fear about. And this is my whole life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And look what I've overcome.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So then you felt good. You're like, I've overcome this.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But I also felt, like, righteous.

[Dax Shepard]

Being in the south really has forced me to think about temperatures way more than I normally would. There's so many weird, inconsistent things about it. One is when you walk inside of a house down there, the air conditioning is only set at, like, I don't know, 78 or 77 or something in the house, which feels ice cold. But in LA, you would never. You need it at 72.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You would never have it on 68.

[Caroline Fraser]

Why is.

[Dax Shepard]

Why does it feel complete? It feels colder in the house in Nashville because relative to outside. But then you do the myth the temperature's not higher. Like, when we get into late August, September, October in LA, it'll be 98, 100. It won't feel as hot as 93. Real feel real feels different.

[Monica Padman]

Different.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I still don't understand why the gap in the AC has to be so much more dramatic out west. It doesn't make any sense.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's because. Well, I guess, I don't know. But I think like we always set in the summer to 78 and in the winter to 68. That's like what you're supposed to do. Eco friendly wise, but also money wise.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So from. For my parents it's always about. About money and spending. So.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Is it. It's probably more. It probably requires more energy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Of course.

[Monica Padman]

To cool it more it. When it's hotter outside.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

So that's why people are doing. Oh, you're just saying it feels different.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't feel warm in the house? Like were you feeling warm in your parents house at 78?

[Monica Padman]

No, but I don't feel warm at 78.

[Dax Shepard]

But if you walked into my house in LA in September and it was 78, you would go, why don't you guys have the air on?

[Monica Padman]

Maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm telling you because our bedroom will be 78. I can't go to sleep really in LA in the, in the summer or when it's hot.

[Monica Padman]

We're not really hot in the summer.

[Dax Shepard]

We'Re hot in the fall. It's very confusing. It's. I can't believe that something like temperature and humidity could be that relative.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it is weird. I mean humidity changes the whole game. That's.

[Dax Shepard]

Changes? Yes. It throws the rules out. Yeah, it did remind me too. Like my whole childhood in Michigan, I never once was in a house with ac. Maybe my dad's. When I go to my dad's on the weekend, he would live in a condo and he would have air conditioning. But never in my house growing up.

[Monica Padman]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

No, we never had air conditioning. My grandparents put blah blah and grandma no ac. Every window had a box fan in it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It was noisy as hell. That made it kind of tolerable.

[Monica Padman]

It was. Is it hot? It gets hot there.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my God, yeah. Then why didn't they have was too expensive. It wasn't most of the year like I think everyone's just like, yeah, you just got to get through July and August.

[Monica Padman]

Well that's, that's how California is now.

[Dax Shepard]

Because you got to get through September.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. And it, it didn't used to be like that. So most apartments and stuff they don't have ac. You're gonna put in a box.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And you're not Gonna put an AC for something that you only need for 20 days a year. Like in Santa Monica, when I lived there, almost none of the. None of those apartments had ac.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you only needed it like nine days a year in Santa Monica.

[Monica Padman]

And it's changed. Like, it's gotten a lot hotter in LA over the past 10 years. So, like now I think these apartments do need ac, but they don't have it.

[Dax Shepard]

I wonder. I want to look that.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I do remember in Santa Monica, there was always a few brutal weeks that Brie and I would be like, in there smoking cigarettes again. With a box fan in the window and one out the back, trying to get a little airflow.

[Monica Padman]

Sure, yeah. Has LA gotten hotter? But you don't like the way that's worded.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no, that's fine. I'll sign off on that search from 1990 to now.

[Caroline Fraser]

Now, AI overview says yes.

[Dax Shepard]

By how much? Approximately 2.5 degrees in the last 50 years. 50 years. Okay.

[Caroline Fraser]

Not.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know. And you cut that into a third.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know. I just know when I lived with Anthony.

[Dax Shepard]

You also, though, live further east.

[Monica Padman]

I live further east.

[Dax Shepard]

But you were at Fairfax.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You think that's much cooler.

[Dax Shepard]

It's. It's seven miles closer to the ocean.

[Monica Padman]

That's true. But it wasn't.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll tell you, Santa Monica is a full 20 degrees cooler.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, even. That's fine. But it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's fine. I can accept that.

[Monica Padman]

I understand that about Santa Monica. But the grove was hot. Yeah, but not as hot.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a fun thing in LA. So our house in LA is a good 10, 15 degrees warmer than Santa Monica. But then I drive one mile on the 101, I go over the hill into the valley, and then it's another 10. It's like 30 degrees hotter.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Within two miles.

[Monica Padman]

So fun. Mountains, Mountains, valleys, Sea Breeze, Equid, Aqua Death.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you ever use Sea Breeze?

[Monica Padman]

No. Tell me about it.

[Dax Shepard]

I think that was like an astringent for the face, for acne.

[Monica Padman]

Sea Breeze.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, the stuff that they were selling us in the 80s, that wasn't around when it was not good for your skin. It was just like. Put turpentine on your face.

[Monica Padman]

Face cream. I'm gonna put.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's like cleanser, Cleanser.

[Monica Padman]

Sea breeze, astringent, sensitive skin.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it still?

[Monica Padman]

It's still.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, then I take all that back. I don't want to be sued. It's a great, great product. When I used it, it made my skin a little dry.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Well, you do have to be careful. Obviously, with. They used to think you should just.

[Dax Shepard]

Dry your face out in the 80s.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You know, I go to Correct Shout.

[Dax Shepard]

Out Jen and one of your many personal sponsors.

[Monica Padman]

I actually. So I kind of freaked out because I have a little breakout now. Now everyone's gonna be staring, and that's fine.

[Dax Shepard]

But I don't have. Can I tell you something right now? You do not have a breakout.

[Monica Padman]

I do. And I do.

[Dax Shepard]

I worry about your sanity if you think you're having a breakout right now. Cause I'm staring at your face.

[Monica Padman]

Listen, I have makeup on. I have makeup on.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, I. I was like, oh, fuck. Like, maybe she doesn't work anymore.

[Dax Shepard]

Decided she retired while you're gone.

[Monica Padman]

I got worried and I was like, I think maybe she's, like, lost her touch or something. And then I was looking at my calendar and I was like, oh, oh, my God, I am about to start my period. It really snuck up on me.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I didn't know. And that is standard. I'm definitely gonna have, regardless of corrective skin care, a little break.

[Dax Shepard]

You could.

[Caroline Fraser]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

You could bathe in Sea breeze. But every 28 days you're gonna.

[Monica Padman]

I'm getting something. I'm getting something. But she does. For my skin anyway. She likes it to be dry.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

To. You know, I use a. I use a cleanser, by the way, people who don't live in LA and are like, I want some of these things, or I need help. I think you can buy some of these products on her website.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

So, yeah, so I use a cleanser that. It makes my skin pretty dry. And I. It's good for my skin. And then I use ice cream.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you ever do Accutane?

[Monica Padman]

I think I've never done it.

[Dax Shepard]

You never did.

[Monica Padman]

I. I was scared of it.

[Dax Shepard]

You were scared of it?

[Monica Padman]

I did everything else. So I took the antibiotics.

[Dax Shepard]

Because it can what? It can have kidney outcomes or also.

[Monica Padman]

Like, some mental stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Interesting.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Like some.

[Caroline Fraser]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Depression.

[Dax Shepard]

Again, we're not doctors. We don't know. We love Sea Breeze. We love acute.

[Monica Padman]

This is all alleged?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

This is alleged. Yes. I'm like, depression, some potential suicide.

[Dax Shepard]

So there'll be a very easy correlation, not causation. Because think about why you're having the acne. You're having more hormones.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You're at an age where you're starting to have more of those.

[Monica Padman]

Yep. It could be that. But also, it's. It's really. It's, like, intense. I think it's kind of like a carpet bomb.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I have several friends that did it. It. But I have several friends that, like, had really bad acne, and then they never did.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you can't, like, get.

[Dax Shepard]

You can't drink on it. You're not supposed to drink on it, probably.

[Monica Padman]

And then you can't get pregnant, like, for a while.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Which always is a little. When you hear that.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like, if you have it in your teenage years, maybe don't get pregnant as well.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but people have acne like me, when they're adults.

[Dax Shepard]

Would you call what you have acne at this point?

[Monica Padman]

He doesn't have any wood.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. The floors, you could get down on the floor.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, boy. Yes, I would. I say, I think I have it under control.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

But, yes, at any moment.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, let's just put it this way. If someone said, does your friend Monica have acne? I go, no.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's nice. But you.

[Dax Shepard]

I would. I would never, ever describe. And the many things I could list about you. Acne would never be on that list. Well, ever.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's nice, but you'd be lying.

[Dax Shepard]

Would you. Rob, ever say that Monica has acne? No.

[Monica Padman]

That's very nice. But also, what's he. What are you guys gonna say right now? Like, that would be if I. I.

[Dax Shepard]

Just not bring it up. Well, you got to understand, like, I. When. When I just don't bring it up.

[Monica Padman]

You asked Rob. You put him on the spot.

[Dax Shepard]

That was compromising, for sure.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That wasn't fair. But I said, not bad skin. I also ask a lot. Yes. I put him on the spot. Yeah, B. That was a. Yeah, B, I only ask questions that I'm certain are gonna be. That it's not gonna be hard for him. I know he would never describe you as having acne. I just know it.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's.

[Dax Shepard]

We've talked about it a bunch of times while you weren't around.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, great.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, we'll be having lunch sometimes. I'll go, you think Monica's got acne? I mean, Monica. Monica? Yeah. Monica. Our Monica? Yeah. No. Why would you ask that? That's what he says when I ask him that. And I go, yes.

[Monica Padman]

Saying, why would you ask that?

[Dax Shepard]

Why would you ask that? Of course she doesn't.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

When we're having lunch and then he's.

[Monica Padman]

Like, what do you think?

[Dax Shepard]

No, of course not. But I heard her say she had acne. I was like, bitch, look in the mirror. You ain't got acne.

[Monica Padman]

What should we order?

[Dax Shepard]

And then he goes, you shouldn't call her bitch. And I go. I say. I only say bitch affectionately. I never use it pejoratively. And then we stopped talking about it.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know if. I don't know if she'd like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Then we're in the weeds.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, obviously. Listen, it's not. This is. It's not crazy. Like, I do. I go to a place that is acne centric. And it is why it's under control for the most part.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I also had acne for so long. It's not like. This isn't like I was a teenager with acne. Like, I am. I have skin.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[Monica Padman]

No one can tell me I'm not in acne.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm Monica and I'm an acne.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, acne. What a horrible name for it.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not bad.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's bad.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll tell you what's bad. I was not gonna tell this story.

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm reading the Mark Twain book. As I've said a million times, I happen to be in a section for the last couple weeks where almost every night I'm hearing about his carbuncles.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Teach me.

[Dax Shepard]

He's got these carbuncles. He's on tour in Europe, and he's got carbuncles, like, on his thighs, and they're these big boil cysts. And just the name Carbuncles, it's such a rough name. Like Shingles.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, shingles.

[Caroline Fraser]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

But, like.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my carbuncle hurt. You're like.

[Monica Padman]

But it sounds kind of whimsical, too.

[Dax Shepard]

I do like that it has car in it and bunkles of fun.

[Monica Padman]

Bunkles.

[Dax Shepard]

But you don't. I just.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This is crazy. So I've been kind of obsessing for a couple weeks about carbuncles.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Just because I keep hearing it all night long as I'm falling asleep. Carbuncle. Car. So I take a bike ride five days ago. We have a whole night. We go out to Nashville, and then we go see Superman.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Great movie. Our boyfriend's so good in it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Dax Shepard]

Nicholas Holt. It's really funny, by the way, when, like, Lincoln starts liking somebody a lot and, like, she has no interest in our job, but. And she, of course, is loving Lex Luthor.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I go. I go, like, nicholas Holt's so good in this. And she goes, you know, Him. And I go, yeah, honey, I've interviewed him a couple times. You have? Yeah. We're friends. We text each other. You are like, it's only in those.

[Monica Padman]

Moments that you text him.

[Dax Shepard]

I text him. It's pretty one direction.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But anyways, we see that, and then we go. And I am feeling all night like, I almost felt like my boxers were pinching my thigh or something. Right.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I get home, I pull down my pants, and I have fucking, like a marino cherry hanging off my inner thigh. It's so swollen, it's irritated.

[Monica Padman]

Were you worried it was a tick gone bad?

[Dax Shepard]

No, no. I immediately went, I have cancer.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Of course. This is, like, it's now coming out of the skin. I have cancer. Of course I have cancer, because this house is too nice. I mean, literally, I. I was so quick to think, of course the shoe's dropping. I have cancer. I'm in a panic in the. The kit in the bathroom by myself. And then I go, man, I think AI is really good at identifying, you know, radiology charts and stuff. I take a photo of it.

[Monica Padman]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

I upload it.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And I. I did. This is a little dicey. I did say, is this a boil?

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I started with. I could have potentially led the witness.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But it was like, yes, this looks. This is definitely a boil. And I'm like, oh, my God, I have a boil.

[Monica Padman]

You know what? A boil is a bad word.

[Dax Shepard]

It's terrible. I don't want to boil.

[Monica Padman]

I do prefer acne to boil.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, oh, my God, I have a boy. How to get a boy. Why do I.

[Monica Padman]

What made you even think it was a boil? Why wouldn't you just say, Like, I.

[Dax Shepard]

Was just like, my. My best. Like, my. My Hail Mary pass was that this was a boil, and it was. Right. But in reading about this boil, now it gives me this long thing. It's a for knuckle.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

If you get multiple, they become carbuncles. I was like, oh, my. I've been obsessing about carbuncles, and now I have. I'm en route to a car.

[Monica Padman]

I know you don't want to believe in the sim, but, like, come on.

[Dax Shepard]

I know if the sim was fairer to everyone, I'd believe in it, but I just can't get out.

[Monica Padman]

But just because. Okay, this is in, like, let's. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I think. I think we'll get sidetracked on that. But so. And then.

[Caroline Fraser]

And then.

[Dax Shepard]

I really enjoy this interaction with AI. It says if there's any more Information, you know? And I say, like, okay, well, I took a long bike ride this morning, blah, blah, blah. And then immediately, like, that makes a lot of sense. People who cycle get them often because you're wearing extra tight clothes. And what a boil really is is generally staph infection. And I'm like, oh, my God, now I have a fucking staph infection. I'm not pumped about that either.

[Monica Padman]

That's not good. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It tells me to do hot compresses four times a day, and it'll probably clear up on its own.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But I'm not happy with that because we have to go to New York in 36 hours.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Staph infection can turn into shingles.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I did get one round of the vax. Hopefully that would have protected me. Anyways, I. I find a doctor that'll take me in Nashville.

[Monica Padman]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

Kristen's already gone with Lincoln at a vocal lesson. The Richardsons are leaving Delta. I don't want her to be home. So I have this, like, mad dash race to this doctor. I get there. I love the nurse. She's so fun. And she. I think I'm going there to lancet. They go, yeah, come in. We'll lance it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And then we'll give you an antibiotic. And she's like, Like, I. I don't think that needs to be lanced.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm like, oh, man, I really wanted you to lance it. And she goes, I really wanted to lance it. I was excited for you to come in, and I'm going to lance it and all that. She goes, but I don't. I'm not even sure it's a boil. It looks more like just a big blood blister.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But you're leaving tomorrow.

[Monica Padman]

Blood blister also not a good word.

[Dax Shepard]

All preferred to staff. Carbuncle, furnuncle, and boil. So I'm disappointed. So I'm so anti compress. Hot compress. Kristen's always begging me to do hot compresses on stuff. I'm like, what the fuck does that do? Get in bed that night. I do a hot compress for 15 minutes.

[Monica Padman]

Monica felt so nice.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it hurt better.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, it burst.

[Dax Shepard]

It just starts opening.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I took pictures along the way. I have many pictures. And then it just. It completely, like, drained. So it was like, God damn, this hot compress thing really worked.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

So that night I actually went to bed feeling pretty good because I. It was drained. Antibacterial spray. Neosporin on top. Huge bandage. Woke up the Next morning, took it off. Loved what was happening on the bandage. Flat as a pancake. Now I'm down to a small band aid. Everything things. Delicious.

[Monica Padman]

Great. Don't say delicious.

[Dax Shepard]

It looks pretty delicious.

[Monica Padman]

This is not the time to say delicious.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. You're not in a position to say.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me ask you this. Are maraschino cherries delicious? Because that's what the first thing.

[Monica Padman]

They're not for me.

[Dax Shepard]

They're not for you.

[Monica Padman]

Only arm cherries.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Cherries.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I had a cherry.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So what? So you got the small band aid. That's it. But then you also have a wart. What's happening?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know what's happening.

[Monica Padman]

Is it a wartime.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a side thing.

[Caroline Fraser]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't want to talk about my war. I was happy to talk about. Oh, no, you know me. I like talking about things that have already resolved themselves.

[Monica Padman]

It's so confusing.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. I have a weird. You just pattern of honesty.

[Monica Padman]

You just talk.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll be honest about anything once it's over. Like if I've my pants. Yes. I'll never tell you while I'm shitting my pants that I'm shitting my pants.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Well, I. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm falling apart, I guess. I hope so. I have a. I don't know if it's a word. I just felt something on my thumb. I'm like, if that's a word, I want to handle it. So now I'm.

[Monica Padman]

What if it's a. I have a.

[Dax Shepard]

Band aid on that erodes and.

[Monica Padman]

Are you worried it's a farm uncle.

[Dax Shepard]

Farm uncle. A carbuncle.

[Monica Padman]

No, that's when there's a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a lot. No, we're all. Yeah, we're at farm uncle level.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Speaking of like this gross stuff that's happening to me, my friend, when I was home, I was with my friends from home and they had bedbugs this summer. Oh, and the pictures of all the on on.

[Dax Shepard]

They eat you up, right?

[Monica Padman]

She's covered in bites.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure wasn't scabies.

[Monica Padman]

It was bedbugs.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And both her and her husband.

[Dax Shepard]

You have to burn your house down. Virtually.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. They were in another. They were at their parents vacation house. Thank God no one else in the house got. Is just in that room there was.

[Dax Shepard]

A big New York City bedbug thing I remember reading about a couple years.

[Monica Padman]

A long time ago. Disgusting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's rough. We're talking about gross stuff.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So after dinner last night, I'm like Oh, I'll walk through Central park on the way home. I love Central park in the summer. As soon as I get on the path, I'm hearing all this rustling in the bushes. And every time I look over, I see a rat in the undergrowth. And then I just start seeing rats all over the walkway. And I'm like, I guess if you look at them like squirrels, we don't mind.

[Monica Padman]

I know. It is like, it's racism against rats. It is. It is. Haven't I even. Mice versus rats. We think mice are so cute.

[Dax Shepard]

And miniature mice.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

If you were a miniature rat.

[Monica Padman]

Honestly, I'm offended. You don't even like hearing that. Yeah, I. That's so bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Tasteful.

[Monica Padman]

And they're. And it's. But I feel bad for them. They're.

[Dax Shepard]

They're just. Just little animals on the planet trying to make it work. But they were. I couldn't believe how many were just running around the pathways. And no one seemed worried but me.

[Monica Padman]

Do you think?

[Dax Shepard]

I was like, are they gonna bite my ankles? What?

[Monica Padman]

Do you think there was a dead body?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't. I would have smelled it.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe your smell is gone because of all this other stuff. That's. You have a.

[Dax Shepard]

That's possible.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, possibly. I mean, all of those rats in.

[Dax Shepard]

One spot, Wouldn't they be all over the dead body, chowing down instead of running around the path? Or they telling their friends.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they're getting. Yeah, they're gathering.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But oh, wait real quick, because we're talking about dead bodies.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Which. That's really distasteful, what I just did, because I am going to talk about some sad stuff, which is Malcolm Jamal Warner died, which is so sad. So sad.

[Dax Shepard]

Swimming.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And you guys never take my drowning talk seriously. Just saying. Okay. And then. And then Ozzy Osbourne died.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Do we know of what?

[Monica Padman]

I think just a hard life.

[Dax Shepard]

Hard life.

[Monica Padman]

He was. I mean, it was like, so. Exactly. So this is what. So when I was with my friends from home, they. They were like, well. Well, Ozzy Osborne had died that day. And. And they're like, well, you know, these things come in threes. And I was like, no, that's not real. And they're like, we'll see.

[Dax Shepard]

And they were right.

[Monica Padman]

They were right.

[Dax Shepard]

They do come in threes.

[Monica Padman]

I don't like that.

[Dax Shepard]

The Hulk Hogan thing. So my friend Dean text Aaron and I a picture of Hulk ripping his shirt off.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't. I hadn't heard he died.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, you just thought it was a ranch.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Which Would not be unlike Dean to just randomly send a Hulk hook. Yeah. And luckily, I wrote a God among men.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

And then an hour later, I found out he's dead. And then I was like, oh, he was letting us know. And I'm like, oh, no. That really worked.

[Monica Padman]

It really worked.

[Dax Shepard]

It almost worked better. I don't even know if I would have come up with something as appropriate. Wow. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Is there still a phone in the tomb of the woman who invented the Christian Scientist Church? She said that they put a phone in there.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Monica Padman]

In case she, like, woke up rose.

[Dax Shepard]

And wanted to order a pizza. Cause she was starving.

[Monica Padman]

She was starving. She was under there for so long. Okay. According to a long standing rumor, a telephone was installed in Mary Baker Eddy's tomb at Mount Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge, Massachusetts. This is not true.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, boy.

[Monica Padman]

The origin of this rumor seems to center around the circumstances following eddie's death on December 3, 1910. After her funeral on December 8, Eddie's casket was kept in Mount Auburn Cemetery's receiving tomb until the graveside could be made ready. In order to protect against vandalism, the casket was guarded around the clock. At that time, a telephone was installed for the guards to use. It was removed after the casket was transferred to the gravesite in January 1911.

[Dax Shepard]

You also have to imagine what a phone in 1910 was. I think it was an enormous plywood box.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't even know if they have plywood yet, but huge. Remember? You never watched Green Acres, did you? You're too young.

[Monica Padman]

No, I don't think so.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you know the theme song?

[Monica Padman]

Sing it.

[Dax Shepard]

Green Acres is the life for me Farm living is the. And then Jaja Jaco Gabor would say, darling, I love you but give me Park Avenue. Oh, you are my wife Goodbye city life Green Acres we will do, do do do do do, do well, that was a mess, but I got some pieces.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So they let the big city. Yeah, it does.

[Dax Shepard]

He drug Zsa Zsa Gabor out of the big city and took her to a farm. It's blessed, this mess, I guess. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

What about it? Telephone. Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. Cause I was gonna say on that show, they had the kind of telephone you pick up and you hold the big part to your ear, and then you talk into the little mouthpiece and there was an operator and. And that phone was enormous. And that was probably set in the 40s, I don't know. So just imagine how big it is. That's all I'm saying. It might have been the size of a casket.

[Monica Padman]

How are they even having it outside at the cemetery? Yeah. Even.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

With the guards who were using it or whatever.

[Dax Shepard]

And you used to have to crank it. I don't know. If that was to supply electricity. I don't know. You had to crank the fucking thing. I kind of wish I had one, actually.

[Monica Padman]

You could probably auction for one.

[Dax Shepard]

I'd love to have one in my car. It'd take up the whole passenger seat. And that would be my cell phone in the car.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. When we. Remember when. I mean, things have moved so, so fast. Cause when we watch what Lies Beneath, they're on a cordless phone in that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And it just looks wild.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And we've been doing the Tom Cruise marathon and. Yes. What's even crazier is to watch early Mission Impossibles. Cause it's like the highest tech, CIA, a covert shit. And you're kind of looking at all this stuff and it's like, you know, your iPhone would do way more than every single thing in the movie.

[Monica Padman]

It's so weird.

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Lord.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my heavens.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. How many states have religious exemptions for vaccines? 45 states and D.C. allow for religious exemptions to school vaccine requirements. These exemptions allow parents to decline vaccinations for their children based on religious beliefs. The remaining five states, California, A ding, ding, ding. Connecticut, Maine. A place I really want to go. Mississippi, which I'm very surprised by. Yeah. And West Virginia do not allow religious exemptions.

[Dax Shepard]

You'll get surprised.

[Monica Padman]

You know, you will get surprised.

[Dax Shepard]

West Virginia and Mississippi I'm interested in.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Can the Amish borrow their neighbor's car? Not have electricity, but borrow their neighbor's car? Well, Amish individuals cannot own cars due to their religious beliefs. They can't and often do accept rides from neighbors or hire drivers for transportation. The key distinction is that they're allowed to be passengers in vehicles, but not drivers or owners.

[Dax Shepard]

Not drivers.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Caroline Fraser]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So I guess you go to your neighbor's house and go, like, take me up to Rite Aid.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But they better not be Amish.

[Dax Shepard]

The neighbor.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And don't they all kind of live amongst one another?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, they probably strategically make sure it's every other one. Like, boy, girl, boy, girl. You gotta make sure you got one worldly person to the left or right of you in case you need to go to Rite Aid.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. This is interesting because you would think if this was the case, you'd see More Amish people, just among non Amish people. So that, yeah, they could, like, reap the benefits.

[Dax Shepard]

Where my grandparents had their motel in Sturgis, you saw that it was like. And you would. It's. And you can tell because out there, none of the power lines are buried. So you're driving and you're seeing power lines come off the main power lines into a house, and then the next house there's no power lines going into. And then. So you literally could just drive down the road and see exactly who was Amish and who was.

[Monica Padman]

Wasn't.

[Dax Shepard]

But I gotta say, I'm often critical of religions and Amish is quite extreme, of course, but I love the Amish solely because of Rumspringa. I think it's so rad that they go, go. Not just you can. You should.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Go out and spend a year in the worldly world. And we want you to decide to be here. I think that's fucking. That's all you can ask of a religion, really. What I hate is like, trying to mask reality from the practitioners or hide truths or as this term, put it back on the shelf. We've heard in under the banner, all these ways to stifle knowledge and information. That's my issue mostly with religion. So the fact that they encourage a full exploration, I think is awesome.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's awesome too. I'm a little more. More pessimistic about the actual chances of coming out of Rum Springa and having a true assessment. Because you've grown up, you know, it's like you've grown up being told these things about the modern world and then you're just like, thrust in the modern world is scary if you're thrust in.

[Dax Shepard]

But be clear again, they're living among the modern world. It's not like they're unaware of it. They're driving a. In their horse and buggy down the road with, you know, Porsche's driving.

[Monica Padman]

They're being told, like, that's not a good way of living. And then you're in it. I think it's hard to then be like, yeah, I love it. I think it would take long, maybe longer to fully adjust than they have for the little spring break.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I just don't know of any other. I don't know of any sect of Christianity that says, go become Muslim for a year, go become Jewish for a year, go practice a full other religion, and we're confident you'll return to ours. Yeah, it's just rad.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Okay. Is Alaska the number one per Capita serial killer state. Yes. California has the highest total number of serial killings, but it's not the most per capita.

[Dax Shepard]

Just like California. A high gdp.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I just was watching Newsom in an interview on a podcast, talk about the amount of money that California gives to the federal government that it doesn't take. So we're in a, like, $81 billion surplus that California gives to the federal government, whereas Texas, and I love Texas, make no mistake, is in a $71 billion deficit it from the federal government. So, you know, $150 billion difference there.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's something like. I remember during the fires when Trump was, like, threatening to, like, not help us, not help us and not give us aid and stuff. I was talking to my dad about it, and he was like, good luck. All California has to do is say, then we're not contributing to the federal government and the whole country is riding on that money.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, we are prop in New York. And.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, the country is propped up on California.

[Dax Shepard]

I think about eight states. Yeah, I think somewhere in there. Yeah. Which is rad, by the way. I love it. That's why we're a union. We all benefit. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, so what is the current estimate of serial killers? While pinpointing an exact number is impossible due to the clandestine nature of serial killing, it is estimated that there are at least 500 serial killers currently at large and unidentified in the United States. The FBI has previously stated that for every one serial killer apprehended and brought to trial, three more may emerge and begin their criminal activity. While the number of active serial killers has decreased significantly since its peak in the 70s and 80s, there is still a concerning number operating undetected. The decline is generally attributed to advancements in forensic science, policing, criminal justice, and technology, making it harder for serial killers to avoid capture. For example, the number of known active serial killers in the US dropped from nearly 300 in the 1970s to fewer than 50 in the 2010s. Despite this downward trend, the FBI estimates that the problem is far from eradicated.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they kind of. Yeah. Law enforcement, the risk they run is they get a little tunnel vision. Like, even if they're seeing a very clear pattern of decreasing, they're like, don't use. You dare think about cutting our funding. Yeah, it's still raging. It's definitely come down. It's very interesting. I don't think we really have the answer yet. I think there's. Well, Eric and I were talking about on this trip. You know, there's weird outlets for people now, and we're ways to pacify people that didn't exist. Like, you could sit in your basement and just blast people all day long on video games and you could be talking to other dudes on headsets and yelling at them and being aggressive. And, you know, all kinds of shit can happen online. And you wonder, is that pacifying a lot of people that otherwise would be out roaming around delinquent and bored with these weird ideas? I don't know. There's some explanation and it seems like it has to be correlated to technology. Whether that's also. It's way harder to get away with it. I'm sure that's part of it. But again, I don't believe serial killers exist or don't exist because of deterrence. I think if you're that way, you're that way. It's not like, like, oh, I was gonna be a serial killer, but then I found out you get the death penalty. So then I wasn't a serial killer. I don't think it works that way.

[Monica Padman]

Me either. It's definitely a brain. I think it's a brain. It's a disease. Like, I think psychopathy. I mean. Okay, so here's an interesting question. Do you think if they discover a gene that is a serial killer gene?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But it only appears in the eighth month of the pregnancy. You can only test it. Do you think the country would be like, yeah, you can abort that child that late in the game?

[Dax Shepard]

I think it would be split. I think a lot of people would say, no, you can't. Again, everyone that's anti death penalty would say, no, no, you can't just kill somebody. That's not the right of any of us or any government. But they would have to live in a very interesting way. There'd have to be some monitoring at all times. Like if there was a known gene. And again, that's so tricky of a hypothetical because so often people are genotypically one thing and then phenotypically not that thing. Like you could, you know, things happen that prevent the express of those genes. So you could have that gene and probably not happen. So it's very, very tricky. I think a more compelling aspect that is ahead for us is there's that gene. And CRISPR is totally ironed out and dependable. Would there be legislation that on that eighth month you have to use CRISPR to edit out that gene? I think people would sign up for that.

[Monica Padman]

It's pretty scary.

[Dax Shepard]

Serial killers or crispr serial killers, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Then we would be putting in so much. It would require a lot of funding to, like, monitor those people or put them in a place or, you know, whatever.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I don't, like. I don't know if people would go for it.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, you see the obvious. The pushback would be. It's like a very slippery slope. That's eugenics. Right. So we're.

[Monica Padman]

That's why it's an interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

It's. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Comment if you'd say yes on the bill. All right, well, that's it for Caroline. I hope everyone can sleep at night even though they're scared.

[Dax Shepard]

They're scared.

[Monica Padman]

So scary.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, spank your children. All right, love you.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, love you.

[Caroline Fraser]

Bye.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry App or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.