Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Caroline Fraser on Serial Killers

Episode Release Date: August 6, 2025
Guest: Caroline Fraser, Pulitzer Prize-Winning Author
Host: Dax Shepard with Monica Padman

Introduction

In this captivating episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard, alongside Monica Padman, welcomes Pulitzer Prize-winning author Caroline Fraser. Renowned for her insightful works like Prairie Fires and God's Perfect Child, Church, Fraser delves into her latest exploration of a dark and intricate subject in her new book, "Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers."

Background and Personal Experience

[03:35] Dax Shepard:
"So you grew up in Seattle in the 60s and 70s. And I want to talk first a little bit about the Christian Science book, God's Perfect Child living and dying in the Christian Science Church. So it's rare that I get to talk to someone who grew up Christian Scientists. And that was your experience?"

Caroline Fraser shares her personal history, growing up within the Christian Science church—a belief system that has seen a significant decline since its peak in the 1970s. She reflects on the chilly and doctrinaire environment of the church, emphasizing the lack of emphasis on the Bible compared to Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health, which she describes as "possibly the most boring book ever written." Fraser recounts her troubled relationship with her devout Christian Scientist father, highlighting the stringent beliefs that often led to neglect of medical care.

Christian Science: Beliefs and Decline

[06:17] Dax Shepard:
"So your father. This is curious to me. Your father had a PhD from Columbia."

Fraser explains the foundational tenets of Christian Science, notably the belief that the physical world is an illusion. This philosophy, especially the rejection of conventional medical treatment, has contributed to the decline of the church due to insurmountable health-related consequences and an inability to attract new members. She underscores the historical context, noting the Nixon administration's ties with Christian Scientists, which influenced legislation allowing religious exemptions to medical treatments, inadvertently fostering environments prone to higher rates of avoidable deaths.

Lead Poisoning and Behavioral Impacts

[21:04] Dax Shepard:
"Are you able to aggregate any public data from Tacoma in general? Are they over indexing as a total population for certain things?"

Fraser introduces a compelling theory connecting lead poisoning to the prevalence of serial killers in the Pacific Northwest, particularly in Tacoma, Washington. She outlines how industrial activities, especially the Asarco smelter, significantly increased lead contamination in the area. Drawing connections between high lead exposure and aggressive, impulsive behavior, Fraser posits that the environmental factors may have inadvertently contributed to the emergence of notorious serial killers from the region, such as Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway.

Serial Killers of the Pacific Northwest

[34:07] Caroline Fraser:
"Well, it was quite disrupted because he's born in a foundling home. Essentially, his mother gets pregnant outside wedlock."

Fraser delves into the backgrounds of infamous serial killers from Tacoma:

• Ted Bundy: Born in a foundling home, experienced early familial disruptions, and grew up in a lead-polluted environment.
• Gary Ridgway: Convicted of 49 murders, with evidence suggesting higher lead exposure during formative years.
• Robert Lee Yates: Known for multiple homicides, also emerging from regions with significant industrial lead contamination.

These cases illustrate a potential pattern linking environmental toxins to violent behaviors, although Fraser acknowledges the complexity and multifaceted nature of such criminal psychology.

Decline in Crime and Serial Killers

[32:33] Dax Shepard:
"The decline is generally attributed to advancements in forensic science, policing, criminal justice, and technology, making it harder for serial killers to avoid capture."

Fraser discusses the notable decrease in active serial killers from nearly 300 in the 1970s to fewer than 50 in recent decades. She attributes this decline to improvements in forensic techniques, enhanced inter-agency communication, and the advent of advanced technologies that assist law enforcement in tracking and apprehending perpetrators more efficiently. Despite the reduction, Fraser points out that an estimated 500 serial killers remain at large in the United States, underscoring an ongoing concern in public safety.

The True Crime Phenomenon and Its Ethics

[37:13] Dax Shepard:
"What do you think the ethics are of true crime? And why are women predominantly the creators and the audience of true Crime?"

The conversation shifts to the True Crime genre, where Fraser examines its popularity, particularly among women. She references Ann Rule's contributions and suggests that engaging with true crime offers a sense of protection—understanding the minds and backgrounds of criminals to stay safe. Fraser also critiques the sensationalization inherent in true crime media, advocating for a more contextualized and holistic approach to understanding violent crimes beyond individual case studies.

Furthermore, Fraser addresses the issue of "Missing White Woman Syndrome," highlighting the disparity in media coverage where crimes against women of color receive significantly less attention, perpetuating systemic biases and neglect in societal narratives.

Advancements in Forensic Science and Future Implications

[43:15] Caroline Fraser:
"There have of course caught the Golden State Killer, who you mentioned that was the Big one. But I think there have and a couple others whereby they can go back and they can find."

The role of genetic science, particularly DNA analysis, is emphasized as a game-changer in solving cold cases. Fraser underscores successes like the capture of the Golden State Killer, made possible through modern forensic methods. She also touches upon neurological developments—such as the impact of brain injuries on violent behavior—and suggests that these scientific advancements should inform future approaches to preventing and understanding violent crimes.

Conclusion

Caroline Fraser's interview on Armchair Expert provides a deep dive into the complex interplay between environmental factors, religious beliefs, and psychological predispositions in shaping the behaviors of serial killers. Her exploration of lead poisoning as a potential catalyst for violent tendencies offers a unique perspective that bridges criminology with environmental science. Additionally, Fraser's insights into the True Crime genre provoke thoughtful discussions on media ethics and societal biases.

As the episode concludes, Fraser leaves listeners with a reflective understanding of how intertwined societal structures and individual behaviors contribute to the emergence of such heinous crimes, urging a multidisciplinary approach to effectively address and prevent future atrocities.

Notable Quotes:

• Caroline Fraser [06:25]:
  "That's a foundational tenet of the religion, is that the physical world doesn't exist and that it's just an illusion, a kind of fantasy that we're all having."

• Dax Shepard [32:33]:
  "The decline is generally attributed to advancements in forensic science, policing, criminal justice, and technology, making it harder for serial killers to avoid capture."

• Caroline Fraser [37:13]:
  "This is a fascinating phenomenon. I think, you know, Ann Rule had a lot to do with this because her relationship to true crime, I mean, she was making a living at it as a single mom..."

This in-depth summary encapsulates the essence of Caroline Fraser's discussions on serial killers, environmental influences, and the True Crime genre, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the episode's key insights and thematic explorations.