Cynthia Erivo

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Episode Summary Featuring Cynthia Erivo

Release Date: November 18, 2024

In this compelling episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard is joined by co-host Monica Padman and the immensely talented Cynthia Erivo. The conversation delves deep into Cynthia's illustrious career, her experiences in the highly anticipated film adaptation of Wicked, and her personal insights on fame, vulnerability, and the human experience.

Cynthia Erivo's Career Journey

Cynthia Erivo begins by sharing her extensive background in the performing arts, highlighting her roles in Harriet, Bad Times at the El Royale, and her acclaimed Broadway performance in The Color Purple. Her dedication and versatility have earned her numerous awards and accolades, setting the stage for her role in Wicked.

Cynthia Erivo [03:37]: "Things get so out of control. I don’t know what the heck is happening. People are seeking out the worst of things. It’s very strange."

Navigating Fame and Fan Interactions

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the complexities of fame. Cynthia reflects on the profound connections she forms with her audience, often hearing personal stories about how her work has impacted listeners' lives. She emphasizes the responsibility that comes with such influence and the emotional toll it can take.

Cynthia Erivo [48:53]: "There are times when you're like, I don't know what to say here, but I know that this is a really cool moment, and I'm glad you're here."

Dax and Monica explore the challenges celebrities face in maintaining personal boundaries while fostering genuine connections with fans. They discuss the phenomenon of fans projecting their emotions and struggles onto public figures, creating a delicate balance between accessibility and privacy.

The Art of Performance and Music Psychology

Cynthia delves into her passion for music psychology, explaining how different musical structures can profoundly affect listeners' emotions. She elaborates on her academic pursuits and how they intertwine with her artistic endeavors, enhancing her performances with a deeper understanding of human psychology.

Cynthia Erivo [61:07]: "The study of the way in which music affects the psychological state of a person based on where they live, their social standing... it’s fascinating how different cultures interpret and feel music differently."

Personal Reflections and Growth

Throughout the episode, Cynthia shares personal anecdotes about her upbringing, her mother's influence as a health visitor, and the impact of her father's absence. These stories provide a heartfelt look into the experiences that have shaped her resilience and empathetic nature.

Cynthia Erivo [77:37]: "I think my mom is really kind. I read Jada Pinkett Smith's book and there is a section in the book where she talks about her father. And it really clicked for me when I read this part."

Behind the Scenes of Wicked

The conversation also offers an insider's view of the making of Wicked. Cynthia discusses the rigorous demands of the role, the physical challenges of performing in a harness, and the collaborative spirit that made the production a success. She praises the director, John Chu, for fostering an engaging and supportive environment on set.

Cynthia Erivo [84:17]: "John is the most incredible person on the planet. Watching him work is really fun. He's so excited by it and he's like finding things at the same time."

Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, the hosts and Cynthia reflect on the importance of authenticity and the ongoing journey of personal and professional growth. Cynthia expresses her gratitude for the opportunity to connect with listeners on such a profound level, while Dax and Monica commend her for her unwavering dedication to her craft.

Cynthia Erivo [87:35]: "I'm here to teach you and take you through and help you. I want to be the person that's able to put people through school, take care of young people who need care."

This episode offers a rich tapestry of insights into Cynthia Erivo's life and career, providing listeners with an intimate glimpse into the mind of one of today's most dynamic performers. Her reflections on music, fame, and personal growth resonate deeply, making this a standout episode of Armchair Expert.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to the transcript provided and indicate the approximate moment each quote occurs within the episode.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

We had the great privilege of seeing Wicked early.

[Monica Padman]

What a dream.

[Dax Shepard]

And our guest today, Cynthia Erivo, is so dynamic and so powerful and so infectious and intoxicating and euphoria inducing.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I fell so in love with her in this movie.

[Monica Padman]

She's so good, so good in the movie. She's such a cool person. She's also like, she just hosted the CFDA Awards. That's a huge fashion thing. She's very cool.

[Dax Shepard]

And then she arrived and she over delivered. You have seen her in Harriet Windows, Bad Times at El Royale, the Color Purple on Broadway. She's won all the awards. And of course, November 22, just in time for the big turkey Wicked. You're going to want to run out and see it. Buy your tickets now. Pre order. If you didn't pre order a month ago, you should already be panicked.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, panic.

[Dax Shepard]

Please enjoy. Cynthia Erivo we are supported by Audible. We know you love audio content. Thanks for listening to the show, but if your ears are craving more audio, Audible is the place to go. I probably, in truth spend more time on Audible than any other place, any other app. Yeah, I'm listening every night for an hour before bed. There's more to imagine when you listen. Whether you're searching for the latest bestsellers and new releases or you want to catch up on a classic title, you can find it all in the Audible app. And as an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog.

[Monica Padman]

What do you listen into now?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'm just finishing the Worlds I See by Feife Li. It's so good in moving and I love it so much. I'm. I'm sad it's ending now. Listen. New members can try Audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.comdax or text DAX to 500500 that's audible.comdax or text Dax to 500. 500. We are supported by Audible. I love Audible. I've been listening to so much Audible lately because I've been taking these naps a lot. I always like to listen to Audible to go to sleep. Now look. It's a special feeling when you encounter a story that truly sparks your imagination. Whether it's imagining new worlds and poss abilities or discovering New ways of thinking. There's more to imagine when you listen. That's why we love listening to the amazing titles they have on Audible. Right now, I'm listening to WIM hof.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And you are really into it. You were explaining a lot of the pieces to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And I lost you a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

I'm listening to Intermezzo by Sally Rooney.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it great?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's great.

[Dax Shepard]

Audible truly has the best selection of audiobooks, without exception. From bestsellers to new releases to exclusive Audible originals, there's always something to discover. As an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.comdax or text DAX to 500. 500. That's audible.comdax or text Dax to 500. 500.

[Cynthia Erivo]

How long have you been doing this?

[Monica Padman]

We launched in February of 2018. Almost seven years.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. You're many people's favorite.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, thank you. We try to do the opposite of clickbaity. Even talk shows, which we love, you just go in and you do your thing, and then you get out and there's no context and things blow up. Trying to sort of be the antidote to that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you for doing that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, for us, too. Things get so out of control.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, they do.

[Monica Padman]

Getting worse by the second. I don't.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know what the heck is happening. People are seeking out the worst of things. It's very strange.

[Monica Padman]

It's a little bit of a. We say, like, outrage addiction.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And really unhealthy.

[Monica Padman]

It is. We're in a sort of an interesting time where I feel like celebrities, especially newer celebrities, are starting to push back and, like, question fandom in a really interesting way.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's like where the boundary is, like, exactly where you get to be a part of my life, and then when I get to have my life for myself. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That you're a person.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Just, like, reminding people that humanity exists.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You can be a human being.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. It's sad that we have to remind people, but.

[Dax Shepard]

Good morning.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Good morning.

[Dax Shepard]

Do it, do it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, man.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, you smell so good.

[Dax Shepard]

God, I smell like sweat. I just went on a hike.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well done.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you.

[Monica Padman]

Well, this is a long time coming.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. Oh, my goodness. You're a miniature, too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You. I am.

[Dax Shepard]

You're in good company. Lonnie, are you jealous? She has even bigger pants on than you.

[Monica Padman]

I know. Her fashion's under.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm Dax, by the way.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hi, Dax.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice to meet you. Welcome.

[Monica Padman]

We've already talked about bags. The fashion is outrageous.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you want to sit down for two seconds? Because I don't have the knowledge base to talk about what I thought was really funny while I was researching for one second.

[Monica Padman]

I try to tell him all the time that he only has some of the info.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Cynthia, I was watching an interview with you, and you had mentioned that you were about to do some Sondheim, and Kristen was readying herself for the day, and she stopped everything. She was. Who is she playing? What's Happening?

[Monica Padman]

Well, specifically, because it was Night Music.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is my favorite. Who did you play? Petra, of course.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you want to air your grievance?

[Monica Padman]

Well, my grievance was I was really struggling to figure out who you were going to play. Cause I was like, you have the moxie for Desiree, though.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You're not anywhere near the H for it.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So your grievance, as I recalled, was you only played the child in that. Is that the same musical?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

So I've done Night Music twice. I did it at the Kennedy center during Sondheim Rep a million years ago, and then I did it at the LA Opera House.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's cool.

[Monica Padman]

But both times, I played Frederica.

[Dax Shepard]

What? Who's 13. Who's 13 years old.

[Monica Padman]

The whole time I dream of playing Anne.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. No, Ann's phenomenal.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that was your chance.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Go, go, go. Spring off now as the sweet imbecility stumbled so lavishly onto her lap. Yes, but here's the thing.

[Monica Padman]

Dax informed me pretty bluntly this morning.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes?

[Monica Padman]

I can't pull off Anne either. He said, you're way more of a Desiree.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I said, what do you.

[Dax Shepard]

Hold on. First of all, I didn't say that because I don't know the names of the characters. But what I did say is that you are closer in age. This is bad news. I'm going to tell you. You're closer in age to 63 than you are 24.

[Cynthia Erivo]

True.

[Dax Shepard]

I said, now, look, you could put on a ton of makeup and play 24. They could do some prosthetics and age you down. Or you could go out on stage with no makeup and you'd be playing 64.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Can you believe I'm offended for you?

[Dax Shepard]

It's ludicrous. That's why I say it, because obviously, she's a beauty.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's like you aged backwards. It's very strange. It's a good joke because it's absolutely the most untrue thing in the world. I think you could still play Anne. I couldn't pull off Anne at all. Petra was perfect. Wait, what's Petra? Solo's the Miller's son.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, you've already done it or you're about to do it?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did it at Lincoln Center.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it was a one off.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was a one off. Well, four nights.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you watch for more or were you happy? It was only four nights.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was happy it was only four nights because it was manic. I was doing 59 other things at the same time on one day. I opened something in the morning, did something in the afternoon, which was like a full 20 minute set show for Pride Weekend and ran from the Pride Weekend show to.

[Dax Shepard]

That was Stonewall.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right. To do night music. And that's a dangerous song if your.

[Monica Padman]

Head is not straight. It is such a wordy song.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There was actually a night where I had to stop because it's also dangerous if you're not moving at the right speed. If it slows down too much, your brain switches on. It's one of those songs that you need your brain to be on autopilot so you can actually just reel the words off. And if it slows down and it felt like it was slowing to a grinding halt, it's like that weird sort of, oh, my God, I'm in the room. What are the words again? Choose that, what I'm saying. And I just was like, okay, we have to stop. I am a big, big advocate for if it's going wrong, stop.

[Dax Shepard]

Interesting, because I was just going to ask. Do you have a mode where you'll just, you know the melody still and you'll kind of make up some words.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Until we find our way back? We're not gonna do a car crash. I can't.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's great.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm gonna say, you know what? I'm gonna pull over to the side of the road.

[Monica Padman]

That's great.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We're gonna just start again. Let's get back into the right space and I'm gonna take you exactly where you're supposed to go in the right fashion. We're not focused here.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's regroup.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, we're swerving too much here. It's not good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we're all over the road.

[Monica Padman]

That's not what at least I was taught in musical theater. It's like, keep it going and it's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The wrong thing to be taught. Sometimes you keep going. Sometimes if you can and you can get back into it quickly, keep going. But if you need to stop and refocus, stop and refocus. Because the audience will say, oh, you know it too. You were experiencing it too. Okay, so I wasn't insane. That means you're taking care of me. I can trust you.

[Dax Shepard]

What you're saying is I'm not going to gaslight you audience. This is all fucked up.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not going to lie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This ain't it. And this is not what I want to do. This is not what you want to listen to. We're going to go back to the beginning. It also says that I'm in control of this and I've got you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I won't take you down this road where it doesn't make sense, what have.

[Dax Shepard]

You in so far as the scene. I want everyone to re enter, go out in the lobby, mill about, we're going to ring the bell, then come in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Maybe too far.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Just to be provocative for one second.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Go on.

[Dax Shepard]

One second for two hours. Did you see American Symphony, the John Baptiste documentary?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, yes, I did.

[Dax Shepard]

What a beautiful doc, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

But if you remember, he's at Carnegie hall and all the power goes out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And he's. I can't imagine anything more stressful. And then talk about 27 things going on in his life. He's got the Grammys, his wife. And then he starts letting his internal emotions come out on this piano keyboard and he's processing this frustration in this everything. And then slowly it starts fusing with this melody and then it becomes beautiful. And then magically the power comes back on. There is also some room for the chaos if embraced to become something unique and interesting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

However, what he didn't do was continue on with what was already pre planned. What he did was start something totally new.

[Dax Shepard]

You've won that. Checkmate.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You see what I'm saying?

[Dax Shepard]

Great counter.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which means that he was completely in control of the situation. He said what we were planning out the window. There's no power. I can't do this. And then just let me filter whatever I can filter through in the present moment.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, listen, I just wanted to bring Kristen in because the whole house was a flutter today. Now Kristen's in. She believes this ruse mysteriously. Our 11 year old had an emotional fit this morning that precluded her from going to school on time because she knew somebody was coming to the house at 11.

[Monica Padman]

Was she here?

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, we had to send her.

[Monica Padman]

I fell for it hook, line and sinker. I was like, oh, she's having a swing. Okay, we're going to let her regulate. I'm going to stand back. I'm going to let her get it all out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's crying the whole nine yards.

[Monica Padman]

We finally calmed down on the ride to school. She goes is Cynthia the 11am or the 2pm? That's what she said. I had a feeling you guys were going to keep them home from school today. I used my optimistic outlook. I said this will not be the last time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It won't. We're going to double date. There's going to be some other time.

[Monica Padman]

Where you will be able to be.

[Cynthia Erivo]

In her presence and say what she means to you because you mean quite.

[Monica Padman]

A bit to her.

[Dax Shepard]

But hun, if Brad Pit was coming over to clean the pool at 11am and I mysteriously couldn't make my appointment at 10, you would go immediately. This is horseshit. He just wants to watch Brad Pitt clean our pool.

[Monica Padman]

That's true. But I immediately take on their emotions.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She started to get disregulated and then I started to get disregulated and I was like chugging coffee to wake up.

[Monica Padman]

Be like how do we calm every everybody down this morning?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Then I called your sister to take the other one in and I was.

[Dax Shepard]

Evil Oz upstairs journaling.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was listening to all the machinations and I was like this is horseshit but it's gonna work.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't even realize until really this.

[Monica Padman]

Moment what was pulled over on me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Well listen, some people will be disappointed but that's something to be quite proud of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Our child did snow us that she.

[Monica Padman]

Gave it a shot for something she loves.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That is sweet. And also I feel really cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Good.

[Monica Padman]

You are really cool.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I feel really cool that your 11 year old was like yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're bringing something for everybody because then you showed up in this outfit and now Monica's all on the ropes. She's fucked up.

[Monica Padman]

You're more than an outfit to me though.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Don't let me do that.

[Dax Shepard]

You got us all fucked up. This place is titter. I think we should call it. That was a great episode. We can go only down from here. So what do you think about this really bad sample set I have? But 30 year old London, what do we share? Endlessly interested in whatever weird cultural differences we have because it's misleadingly similar.

[Cynthia Erivo]

As in between here and America.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Right. You're like oh yeah, English shows, blah blah blah. But then there's really interesting differences.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's weird because when I first moved here I moved to New York and that felt the most similar to London specifically. But the thing that America and the UK As a whole, have very similarly. Is that there are cities, places that it feels really multicultural and it's really, like, busy, and then you move further out and it becomes really disparate. I'm not having the same experience in London that someone is having in, I don't know, Yorkshire. Yorkshire's a beautiful, beautiful place. The vibe is very different, and it just feels different. So it's the same as if I'm here in LA or I'm here in New York. It's very different than if I'm in Georgia.

[Dax Shepard]

London and New York have more in common than London and Essex.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Than New York and Georgia, yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I get that the foods are different. We just have different food because we have to.

[Dax Shepard]

Why do you have to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, there are certain things that we're just not allowed to have in our food that you're okay to have in food here.

[Monica Padman]

Like, chemically.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Chemically, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, not allowed to have certain things.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But look how big and strong we are. Look at the ufc.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Look. I don't think we have. Do we have the UFC?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Conor McGregor.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm scared of him.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm scared of him a little bit, but I do think, like, he wants.

[Monica Padman]

You to be scared of him. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because he's scared.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I feel like there's a part of him that's just, like, the most gentle, sweetest thing in the world.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, this might interest you. We interviewed him last year, and my main curiosity was, like, what event happens before you dedicate your life to martial arts? And so I had asked him, and he said, no. I walked into this gym at 12 years old. I'm like, yeah, but why do you walk into a boxing gym? What happened. Happened immediately before. And he's like, okay, well, actually, I like this girl. She's older than me. She liked me. I was walking down the street with her. Then the older boys, one of whom was her boyfriend, pulled up in a car. Three older guys got out and beat the shit out of him. And then he goes, I didn't really fight back. And I'm like, now that makes sense. When you're trying to heal that embarrassment in front of a girl you like, where you didn't defend yourself, that's a motivation to consider you on a life trajectory. And so, yeah, I think that little boy is underneath all of that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But, boy, he's trying to defend himself.

[Dax Shepard]

It's really gone off the rails a.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Little bit, I think. So, yeah, it's just, like, gone one step too far. But, oh, I hope he finds a little Bit of healing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. He has little kids. I think that can be a route into it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I think there's something that has to be healed within himself first. It's also easily passed on to his kids. And that anger, that dismay, it's easily rubbed off.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I say this all the time. I'm glad we have girls and not boys, because, yeah, I think the impulse when that was your life is to go like, well, if I don't pass this on to him, he'll suffer the way I did. And you're just starting it all up again because you don't have any faith in the future. I get it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do you have kids? I don't. No.

[Monica Padman]

Do you want them?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't think so. I'm good with kids.

[Monica Padman]

I'm also on the fence.

[Dax Shepard]

You guys are the exact same age.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. 37.

[Dax Shepard]

And you and I are only six days apart in January.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No way.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you believe in all the astrology stuff or No?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think there's a part of me that does believe in it because I'm very Capricorn to a table, which disturbs me somewhat because it annoys me.

[Monica Padman]

That's what Capricorns do, get annoyed by the predictive act.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm annoyed by it.

[Dax Shepard]

The predictability.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I hate it. I'm like, okay, so I'm stubborn. Good. Great. Overachieving? Yes. Understood. Do I like nice things? Yes. I like nice things.

[Dax Shepard]

Am I in charge all the time?

[Cynthia Erivo]

All the time. Do I plan people's lives? Yes. Am I emotionally adept? Sometimes. Yes. Do I keep my feelings to myself for a really long time? Yes. Am I working through it? Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Am I insufferable? You bet your ass I am.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Completely. Am I right a lot of the time? Times? Yes. Does it annoy people? Yes. Do I like saying I told you so? Not always.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. I love you. Thanks for stopping by.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You don't have to sneak out. You can come back if you want.

[Dax Shepard]

She has a whole schedule.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, enjoy.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you. Bye, buddy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Bye. Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Bye. Did you get on with Michaela Cole? Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I've known her since I was 16.

[Dax Shepard]

I love her so much. I read her book.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's one of the most phenomenal human beings in the world.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, for people who don't know Michaela, what was her incredible show? That was the best show of the year on hbo.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I may destroy you.

[Dax Shepard]

I may destroy you. If you've not seen I May Destroy.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Youy Also before you see, I may destroy you See chewing gum, which I'm in for, like, an episode or Two, but it's just brilliant.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I'm so excited.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And people don't realize that is originally based on a long form poem that she wrote. I remember the first time I saw this poem because she performed it live. I can't even remember where we were, but it was like somewhere in Holloway or something. Like this small little theater. And it was like a one woman poem where she played all these different roles and then it just expanded into this TV show.

[Dax Shepard]

She's like a wunderkind.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. There's no one like her.

[Dax Shepard]

Where did you meet?

[Cynthia Erivo]

East London. I want to say we met at one of the theaters or something.

[Dax Shepard]

You were just both into.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you comparable ages?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think she's maybe a year or so younger than me.

[Dax Shepard]

Younger?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What a bitch.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, but I love her. She'd written some songs or poems with songs and asked me to sing. I think it was when I was dancing. She asked me to dance to one of her songs that she was performing at a church or something random. And we just stayed in contact and we've been friends since then.

[Dax Shepard]

Give us a simple explanation of London. So you grew up in South London. You said you met in East London?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, So I was born southwest London, a place called Stockwell. I went to school in South London, Tapam South. But I moved to East London when I was about 14, about Upton Park, East Ham, that kind of area, but properly East London.

[Dax Shepard]

Your whole family did or just you went to a school or something?

[Cynthia Erivo]

We all moved to East London.

[Dax Shepard]

Your sister, your mother and you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, my mom bought a house in East London and that's when we moved. That was a really big moment for us because it was like, oh, we have our own house.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the vibe in South London? Like, what are the stereotypes about these pockets of London?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I thought that South London was pretty chill. I really enjoyed it. I remember there's open spaces. Those are like cool little parks that you can go to. It's very walkable. You can walk all around South London and mostly downhill and just never come.

[Dax Shepard]

Home to avoid walking uphill.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The bus is your best friend at that point, you know, I mean, it's lovely going. Coming back is a damn nightmare. Or you take a tube. There's loads of cool outdoors activities. Where I lived. You could go. Go karting, stuff like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Go karting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And East London is really vibrant. It's busy and alive. Loads of different cultures.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it like the East Village in New York?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No. I don't know if there's anywhere like it you have the African community and different African communities. You've got Ghanaians, the Nigerians, you have the Pakistanis, you have Bangladesh, you have the Jamaicans there as well. There's like a smorgasbord of different types of people, which means that there's different types of food everywhere. And, like, it's super vibey. I can go to the corner of East Ham right after the tube station, and I know that I'm going to walk into the store that has all of the saris and all of the 24 karat golds. But then if I cross the road, there's the shop that has the Jamaican patties, and if I walk far enough, there's the auntie that does the Nigerian material cereals. It's like that. And then there's the market, which has everything.

[Dax Shepard]

This is where Kirby's mom's shop was, I think.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love it in Eastham because of how easy it is to just get everything. But then next door, Larry, who's like the plumber who fixes your roof and your backyard if he needs it, who's very, very Essex, who sounds like this and wants to talk to you about what the weather's been like, is also there.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you have all of these people who sort of exist in the same way. And then West Ham stadiums over there for what you call soccer. We call football.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, right. Which goes off.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It goes off.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Especially in the. Well, you were born in 87. Maybe that had passed, but there was the whole hood lamero. It felt like early 90s, maybe.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Early 90s, when I was still very, very young. I think it was Arsenal. That terrible, awful thing that happened at the games where people were like. There was a stab. Yeah, it was terrible.

[Dax Shepard]

And they were all wearing Burberry. I just learned this recently. That was their thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Something happened because Burberry was not that. Then it became part of that culture.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it's been, in a way, reclaimed and changed.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Beckham has saved it, kind of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Beckham saved it. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What a stylized.

[Monica Padman]

We're going to give him props for that.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what got me to buy Burberry sweater. And Monica got me a beautiful one for Christmas.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. It's changed hands enough that the style has changed enough for it to become. For the aperture and to become a wider.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, okay. So what age was mom when she moved here? Mom and dad both are from Nigeria.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Mom was 15. During the civil war.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, I believe so. Biafran War. And my mom moved to London when she was 24.

[Dax Shepard]

Had she already been a nurse in Nigeria?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She did all of that when she got here.

[Dax Shepard]

She came at 24 with who?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Herself and her younger sister when she landed.

[Dax Shepard]

What was the game plan?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know if she had a game plan.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Just arrive, arrive. What do I do? And then she was told that she was to do catering, to which she said yes for a second and then was like, I don't know if catering's for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then studied nursing at King's College, became a nurse, then expanded and kept expanding and then got better and better and then started doing her papers for what we call health visiting. There's a position in the uk. I always explain it because I think it's a really beautiful position that everyone should have called a health visitor. And it is a nurse or a nurse who's at the level of what you call a sister at this point, who can make visits to people's homes who have just had children. She will take care of mother and child, make sure the vitals are good. Her particular area of expertise was cognitive health. So it's. Are your children developing in the right way? Are they able to pick things up? Can they spot color from birth to the age of three before they go to kindergarten?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. What a preventative step. That probably saves a quadrillion dollars. That' though than a postpartum doula. What is. Do you know what a postpartum doula is?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, but it's weird because I think those are part of her duties to take care of mother right after birth. When mother comes home with a baby, when parents come home with a baby, that first couple of weeks, months, my mom is the person that you see.

[Monica Padman]

So amazing, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Weighs the baby, the whole lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Probably knows about breastfeeding.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Breastfeeding, the whole lot. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know why we don't have more of that. Because that's the whole thing. You take a baby home and you're like, I don't know what to do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Then my mom. That's when my mom steps in. So she will tell you what's next.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that would be of great comfort. Every parent has the moment in the car ride home from the hospital and you're like, holy shit, what's in our back seat?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Why they give you.

[Dax Shepard]

This thing's way too fragile to come to our house.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Where are the instructions to be in the icu.

[Dax Shepard]

Look how tiny it is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't know why you don't have this position here. Because it's so helpful because that bit between birth and kindergarten, it seems like there's nothing in between.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is so odd to me because my mom is the person in between. That means that a parent who has postpartum depression, someone who might have been already depressed, someone who is finding it hard to latch all of that, that's my mum.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. And if you fuck up the nutritional aspect of the first three years, like we now know there's so much developmental stuff downriver that doesn't happen if certain things aren't met.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That would be her. And she's very good at it. She's like the child whisperer. It's very strange, I would imagine, just.

[Dax Shepard]

To compare and contrast that to someone who is in hospice care. Right. Where your full time job is watching people die. The weight of that's gotta be something else.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

She has almost the opposite. She's seen all the excitement and the fun and the hopefulness in the future every day. Do you think it has infected her in a positive way?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think so. She loves children and children love her. It's really magical to watch. They all just sort of go to her.

[Dax Shepard]

Is she supremely disappointed you're not gonna give her a grandchild?

[Cynthia Erivo]

She might be. And I don't know if she knows yet. I think I have to break it. But the thing is, I want to satisfy that need in a very different way because I do want to be the person that's able to put people through school, take care of young people who need care. I do think that's a gift that's come from her because I do think I am actually very good with kids and good with young people. I want to still be nurturing without necessarily being the biological parent.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And still being able to have a date night whenever you desire.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. To take a vacation. That sounds fun.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do you know what I love? I love what Oprah has been able to do where she. She essentially has been taking care of these young women, building them up enough for them to move into whatever careers they want to move into. And they're all excellent women. I think I aspire to be able to do that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

At some point.

[Dax Shepard]

When do you start singing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I start singing at the age of five without realizing that that's actually what I'm doing. I know I'm making sound. I feel very good about the sound I'm making. I like the reaction that people are.

[Monica Padman]

Having because other people are reacting, acting positively.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So I know that something is good. I don't necessarily know that it's the most tuneful sound. I just know that I'm having a great time doing it. And I'm seeing people's faces. Smiles, applause is happening. Good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Approval.

[Dax Shepard]

There's nothing like being little and going, like, wait, I have control. And I feel so disenfranchised and powerless as this little person. But this is a moment in time. This is to think that I'm in charge.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Ooh, it's good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Very good. I think for a little bit, I was just chasing that because it was nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice, yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Pausing for anyone, then.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not aware of it then. But when I look back, I also think it's very rare in your life where you can be in control. And I think singing certainly has that. It just happened to me. We saw Wicked. I'm like, okay, I didn't see the musical. I don't love musicals. And then Limitless. And I'm like, oh, come on, let's go. Let it rip. And I'm in. You took complete control of me and whatever baggage I come in with, that's so powerful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But the thing is, I don't think I've ever thought of it as control necessarily. I think I've always thought of it as a way to encourage and connect people with emotion.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's the positive way. But I think you're in Capricorn Denial.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Maybe. Maybe I am.

[Dax Shepard]

And by the way, it can be all things.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not singular. It's not binary. It's not like, oh, you like it because of the control, or you like it because you make people you love happy. That's part of it, I think.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love the conversation of singing. I always think there's a real big conversation going on, especially when I'm singing live. It's a big old conversation. I can see it because I'm looking at people's eyes. I am. I am urging them to connect with me. I'm trying to tell you this story. I can scream, I can yell, I can whisper, I can caress with my voice. I can do all of those things. But I want the energy exchange. And I guess, selfishly, that energy exchange is like a high for me. It's a rush. And when I can see that it's happening, there's nothing better than that. It is a really vulnerable place to stand and be. Like, I'm going to open up myself and I'm going to tell you my stories with my voice. It's just me. And that's always a really vulnerable place to be. People don't realize that when you have to sing in front of an orchestra, they either love you or hate you.

[Dax Shepard]

The orchestra?

[Cynthia Erivo]

The orchestra. Why would they hate you? Because some singers will come in and there's an entitled thing that people come to an orchestra with where it's like, I'm the singer, you play behind me, you're serving me. Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm the star.

[Cynthia Erivo]

When actually it's the complete opposite. It's not that at all. You're all in it together. The music doesn't make sense without them and they don't make sense without you. They can play the song, but the lyrics communicate as well. But they help with the emotion. If you don't do it together, it will feel disjointed. I always get really nervous before I have the conversation, but I always urge myself to do it before we even start rehearsal. The first thing I ask the orchestra to do is to let me come with you and let's do this together. Because I'm not gonna do this alone. And if you're sat there not enjoying this, everyone's gonna feel it, right? Because there's 20 of them and only one of me. And if 20 of them aren't enjoying it, and if they can't go with it, their audience will feel that immediately and we're off in the wrong direction.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, I know nothing about this. Just from the outside is their knee jerk fear that we're playing math. Right? We have the sheet music in front of us and it goes this way to this tempo, but the singer has more latitude. And the singer can individualize it. The saxophonist can't individualize it, nor can the oboist. So is it that sometimes they're like, all right, this person's going to come in and they're going to do whatever the fuck they want, and we're stuck in this grid, and then we're going to try to catch them, but then we're going to fall back. Is it that. Is that their fear that they're going to be doing something that is different from what you're doing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. And I think the actual fear is that the singer who comes in, who does have the latitude, isn't respectful of the fact that they have maths to do as well. They have a box to stay in. You can have your latitude, but if you're aware of. I need to make sure I make it back to here.

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta stick your landing every time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And if you don't, I just got a point.

[Dax Shepard]

That means you really point it right up my face.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If you Don't. And you're just all over the place and you're not paying attention. You're not looking at the conductor. You're not listening.

[Dax Shepard]

You're in your own selfish world.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly. Now we're not doing this together. Now you're just doing whatever the hell you want to do. And I'm over here playing these notes.

[Dax Shepard]

We should just leave.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And, like, why are we even here? You're doing this on your own. You don't need us.

[Dax Shepard]

And what percentage of you just had a guess? How many do you think are respectful?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think very few. A lot of singers just get excited that they get to sing in front of an audience, and they're nervous, and they're nervous. They haven't really done it before. So sometimes an orchestra is a novelty to a lot of singers.

[Dax Shepard]

And in their defense, if it doesn't work out, no one's going, like, the oboe is sucked tonight. They're gonna say the singers suck.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You are carrying the weight of the whole performance.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes. But the weight becomes a hell of a lot lighter when you know it's not just you.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

When you say you wanted to connect, that's your main goal when you're up there. Did you feel like when you were younger you had a hard time connecting outside of that realm? Was it an escape? I mean, it doesn't seem like it because you're easy to talk to, but I don't know if you were introverted or shy and that was your outlet.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I wasn't shy. I was very bossy.

[Dax Shepard]

Baby boss.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So was Monica.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was very bossy. I knew exactly what I needed to do and what I wanted. And if I didn't like something, I was the worst version of a Capricorn that could exist.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Peloton. Are you tired of the same old workout routine or struggling to find motivation at this busy time of year? It's time to check out Peloton.

[Monica Padman]

Peloton is so great. We all know this. Also, not only is it a good workout, which I did at our friend Molly's house, it's a great workout, but it's also, like, pretty. It's sleek.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it is. It's a good looking piece.

[Monica Padman]

Very aesthetically pleasing. And you know that matters to me.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. I agree. Well, Peloton has a variety of training programs. They got pilates, 5k, 10k, half and full marathon programs, strength training, boot camps. There's so many ways, ways to challenge yourself.

[Monica Padman]

It's so helpful to have a set plan. It takes the guesswork out. It just makes it easier to get started on your fitness journey.

[Dax Shepard]

That's great. And there's so many options on Peloton so you can find a workout that gives you exactly what you're looking for.

[Monica Padman]

Kind of workout are you feeling today?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I gotta tell you, I was recently advised by a doctor to incorporate some more blasts, some high intensity blasts that you get the special. He said, look at sprinters, right? Why do they look like that? Because they're in this really high heart rate for some period of time and it's really beneficial. So I'm looking to go harder, hard.

[Monica Padman]

Cool. Well, whatever you're looking for, Peloton has the workout for you and they have world class fitness instructors to push you to the next level.

[Dax Shepard]

Find your push, find your power with [e-mail] we are supported by Skims. If you're in the market for holiday presents, Skims has got you covered.

[Monica Padman]

Boy, do they. They just launched their holiday shop with some incredible gift ideas. You know I like giving gifts.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, you're a gift expert and you approve?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I do.

[Monica Padman]

And when I gave for a white elephant, I gave a skims robe once before. It was a huge hit.

[Dax Shepard]

It was stolen immediately, unlocked immediately.

[Monica Padman]

And they do. They have this amazing soft lounge sleep set from the Skims holiday shop. Really cute seasonal colors. It's so nice to get festive and get in your skims and bop around.

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta have Venti's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You gotta.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so fun. And who doesn't love a gift list? It makes holiday shopping that much easier. Shop skimsholiday. [e-mail] available in styles for women, men, kids and even pets. If you haven't yet, be sure to let them know we sent you. After you place your orders, select podcast in the survey and select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. We are supported by Sonos. Oh boy, oh boy. Sonos is my favorite product in my whole life. I'm listening to it all day long. I'm in the gym listening to Sonos. I'm at home, listen, watching TV with my Sonos soundbar. I mean, it's.

[Monica Padman]

It really changes the whole experience of listening.

[Dax Shepard]

Look, you're listening to the podcast right now, but how are you listening if you're not listening on a Sonos speaker? You don't even know how amazing the dulcet tones of our voices can sound. Sonos is known for having the absolute best sound Quality of any speaker on the market. You've got to hear it. And as good as Sonos can make us sound, imagine listening to Pink Floyd on a Sonos speaker or hearing the booming dramatic music in a great action film on a Sonos soundbar are game changing. Another incredible feature of Sonos. Their integrated sound system makes it easy to play anything in any room.

[Monica Padman]

I love that it's easy to use.

[Dax Shepard]

Too, so you can keep your dance party going throughout your whole house. Visit sonos.comdax to learn more. That's sonos.comdax we are supported by Wayfair. Oh my goodness. I love Wayfair. My feet are on a Wayfair coffee table right now that I'm in love with. I cannot believe the holidays are just around the corner. If you're hosting this holiday season, it's definitely that time where you need to start prepping the house to make things festive but also functional for your guests. Wayfair is the place to get great deals on things your home actually needs this time of year. Cozier blankets, maybe a few extra dining chairs, holiday serveware. You name it, they have it. If you've been eyeing a few things on Wayfair, now is the time to get them. They have huge holiday deals going on right now and you can get up to 70% off during their Black Friday deal deals. That's huge. 70%.

[Monica Padman]

As you said, we have a coffee table, we have side tables in the studio. This whole place is Wayfair.

[Dax Shepard]

We are decked out. Wayfair also offers free and easy shipping, even on the big stuff. And they'll help you set it up. One less thing to worry about this busy season. Don't miss out on saving big with Wayfair this holiday. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals. That's W A Y F A I R dot Calm.

[Monica Padman]

You have some Virgo in you too. I'm feeling. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I would just say what I thought sometimes. That would not be nice. It would not be nice.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I wasn't a mean kid. I just was really honest all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Can I defend us for a second?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's an easy mix up. What I value the most is the truth.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Please.

[Dax Shepard]

And I prefer an inconvenient truth than I do a flowery lie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Just don't do it to me.

[Dax Shepard]

But I have to acknowledge for other people that's not the case. Yeah, they're not interested in that. And that's also fair because it depends.

[Monica Padman]

On where you're coming from. You have that, Dax has that. Hang up. I guess I'll call it or obsession or whatever.

[Dax Shepard]

Character defect.

[Monica Padman]

No, it's not a defect, but because you were told things that weren't true and you had to figure it out. Yeah, you had to figure out what was true and what wasn't true. And so you seek the truth. So it comes from somewhere that need.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we're blaming January, but maybe there's more.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think it might be a little more than January.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Because we're all doing that. The best way to survive in the world. And so why truth for you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it comes from my own past and my history with my dad and all of those things. Maybe feeling a little lied to in that expectation of a parent and not getting it.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have this chip on your shoulder? Do you remember being young and them telling you some kid safe thing that you saw right through and it felt so disrespectful, like, I know what's going on and you're trying to fool me. Did you have that sense of like, you're treating me too young? I know what's going on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, sometimes I was a clever kid, so I didn't necessarily need much babying. So when a person did baby me, it still pisses me off now.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, how sweet of you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I can't stand it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, it's rough.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Please don't call me cute.

[Dax Shepard]

Cute?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I haven't been cute in a long time.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, it depends what your association with the word cute.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Is a small squirrel cute. My dogs, who are £5 and £8 cute. Vulnerable, too vulnerable. You know, some babies cute.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Do you think that's a small person complex thing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it's a small person complex thing to other people. I know I'm short. I'm very aware of being a small 5 foot 1 person, but it's when people think because you're small, you're also very young and down the two things don't go together. Just because I'm small. You know what I mean? I'm good.

[Monica Padman]

I have that too. I'm like, don't underestimate, please, this. But then I think sometimes I'm too critical or harsh or you need to respect me. Do you ever feel like you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I try not to swing when someone's like, you look so much bigger on stage. I understand what that means. I think if you'd told me that 10 years ago, I would have been like, what do you mean? But now I understand what you mean by by someone's presence when they're in performance mode, as opposed to when you meet them. They're two different things. So the look of someone changes when they're in their sort of elements. Yes, they do seem bigger. You can't help it. And that's what happens. So I totally understand what that means.

[Dax Shepard]

This is all very comedic, though, because that's your bag, that's what you were handed, and that's what you're dealing with. So mine is universally, when I meet someone in real life, they go, oh my God, you're so much bigger in real life. So weirdly, I'm so much bigger in real life than they see me on screen. So if I wanted. If I'm in the mood, I could go, like, I'm not powerful on screen or I'm not. I could let that be a whole thing. If you choose, you could really take it personal or something's going on. And what's really complicates it all. Not for me as much, because I am given the best benefit of the doubt that a human on planet Earth could be given. I'm a tall white dude, but. But if I'm short and black in British, how am I to know what's actually at play here? Is it just normal humanness or is it some kind of bigotry?

[Monica Padman]

What's happening?

[Cynthia Erivo]

The thing is, it's very hard to know. And at any point, it could be either one of those things.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Or all of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Because sometimes it is. You're so sweet. Oh, my goodness. I didn't expect you to be so sweet.

[Dax Shepard]

Or you're so articulate, or you're so smart. I mean, these are very dog whistle spoken.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God, I love the way you speak. How else am I supposed to speak?

[Dax Shepard]

But what's tricky. Here's what's tricky. There's the historical context of that comment. Basically, what I'm saying is I was expecting you to sound dumb. Yet you do speak very appealingly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, objectively.

[Dax Shepard]

How are you to know what the hell's going on?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I like to think I'm somewhat discerning and you can tell by the way someone says something and the intention behind it. I think you can always sense it through the way a person approaches you and what they're trying to say and the context through which they say it. I also just try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. If I was to run around going, what are you trying to say? The whole time? I would be exhausted. And some of this is exhausting as it is.

[Monica Padman]

It's a pick your bag.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is not the fight I want to even get into. And sometimes it's just a. Yeah, thank you so much.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the real move is to just file all of it into. That's their stuff.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's not my stuff. So my little thing is, I'd say at least half the people that come up to me in public, they have come up to me to say, hey, I love your wife. And I go, oh, yeah, me too. I don't really know what else to say. You just flagged me down to like, I guess carry that message onto her. But the truth is, many of those people, they don't know what to say. And people are coming up to Kristen saying, I love your husband. Now, she is objectively more famous than me, so I could let that lower my self esteem. Or I could go like, oh, yeah, people say it to her too. None of it means anything.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The thing you want to say is, I think you're great and I watch.

[Monica Padman]

Your shows and I know what.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I know what about you. And they want to have a whole conversation and nothing comes out. Yes, but I love your wife.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, exactly. Now it's all fine. And at some point you just have to make a decision for yourself. It's like, well, this could continue to rattle me or I could enjoy my life. Yeah, but if you're a justice warrior, like, I am not in the popular sense, but if there's an injustice I'm.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Running towards, I'm telling you, this is Capricorn shit.

[Dax Shepard]

It is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It really is. Because I have.

[Dax Shepard]

But you suffer from it. I suffer from it. The person doesn't suffer from it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No. They go home afterwards, they're like, okay, that was good.

[Monica Padman]

That was a great interaction.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

And what they probably want to really say, and they're not even sure how to say it, is. I'm short circuiting. You're a person that's on my TV that's now in three dimension.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's a complete collapse of reality for them.

[Monica Padman]

I think a more generous take is that they are actually saying, I've invested part of my life in your life. I know about you. I know you have a wife and I really like her too. And I find you interesting enough that I've given you my time. That's really what they're trying to say, but then that's what comes out. But I do want to say that I am grateful that you. Dax, just said you recognize that as a tall, white, straight man. Yeah, I added that you don't know all my stuff. That you can't really imagine what it's like to be in that other position. Because I have heard people say, like, they're just being nice. And I'm like, you haven't had 37 years of practice to know when someone's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Being nice to when someone's not. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's just great to acknowledge maybe you can't know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I wonder if there's a world in which you just, like, ask the question.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Are you a racist asshole?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Are you being condescending or are you watch them short circuit.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think I was ever going to admit this out loud. I only told a single person. I knew Monica would be mad at me. I told Eric because he's our shittiest friend and I knew he would maybe agree with this.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, now we're telling the world.

[Dax Shepard]

Now I'm going to tell the world.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I was not proud of this, but this did happen. I'm at this burger joint down the street for the win. I love it. I'm there by myself. I'm eating a hamburger. There's a man and his wife and two kind of late teens kids. And the man leans over and he goes, I love your wife's commercials. It's cool they let you be in them.

[Monica Padman]

So rude.

[Dax Shepard]

I take like four or five seconds and I'm like, this guy doesn't know what he just said. Said maybe a minute goes by, and I go, hey, did you mean to sound like a dick when you said that to me, or did you just mess up your delivery? Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right?

[Dax Shepard]

And he goes, what? And I go, well, you said that my wife lets me be in her commercials that I wrote, and I just don't know. Do you realize how that sounded? Or did you just get nervous? And then he kind of panicked and he goes, yeah, we just love all the work you guys do with mental health.

[Monica Padman]

And I was like, oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my gosh.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no. And then, y'all, we continue to sit there for another 15 minutes and finish our hamburgers.

[Monica Padman]

You were with this person?

[Dax Shepard]

I was by myself, sitting directly next to the guy. He wasn't even a foot from me.

[Monica Padman]

You'd think he would move.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But there is something in the asking that made him have to think about it. What he said was rude.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I've left out a part I considered for a moment. He might be trying to make a joke. He might know that's obviously an insult, and he's just being familiar with Me, because he knows me. And maybe a buddy of mine would say that from Detroit. And I think I said, were you meaning to be a dick or were you trying to be funny?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

To which he didn't answer. He said, I like the work you guys do with mental health.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I will say that that is a really simple question to ask, and it's actually the simple answer, yes or no. It's a yes or no answer. And I don't think he knew the answer.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think so either.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think he said a joke that he realized could be an insult as well, but thought it was, like, okay to say because he felt familiar.

[Dax Shepard]

And by the time I was asking him, he's already hearing the fight he's having with his wife on the ride home where she's like, why do you have to fucking open your mout? I'm him in a lot of situations.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I understand that there are people who short circuit and they just don't know what to say. And sometimes some of the sweetest interactions come out of that. My favorite types of those interactions are those where they just say, I don't know what to say, and I have no words, but you're amazing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because I get it. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that sentence weirdly conveys more emotion than any other one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly. I'm really overwhelmed. I don't really know what to say because it's so honest, it's so endearing, and it's so real. There are times when you're like, I don't know what to say here, but I know that this is a really cool moment, and I'm glad you're here.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm scared right now because I.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Don'T want to say the wrong thing. It's an honest, emotional reaction. The flip side of that is someone saying something and they say it in the wrong way. And if you look closely enough, you'll see it in their faces that, oh, my God, what did I just say? Immediately, you'll see it. But if that doesn't show, show up at all, then it's, oh, I said the best thing in the world. And then it's like, did you mean to hurt my feelings, or was that just a moment of you trying to connect?

[Monica Padman]

That's a little bit better of a way to phrase it instead of, were you trying to be a dick?

[Dax Shepard]

How mad are you at me? Out of 10?

[Monica Padman]

I'm not. I'm not mad. But I do think maybe, oh, did you mean to hurt my feelings, or were you just trying to be me? That's the most vulnerable. And you're right. There's one answer.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There's one answer. You know, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or I just wanted to connect. I'm so sorry. That came out wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

I should have let the whole thing slide. I don't think anything predict seductive came out of it other than I came.

[Monica Padman]

Home and I was like to think about it and maybe they won't go to the next person and say something like that. It's wild. Before you guys came up, we were talking about fame. And newer celebrities are pushing back on fame.

[Dax Shepard]

The social contract of it all. Yes.

[Monica Padman]

They're building a bigger boundary and I think it's very interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I imagine you are dealing with something different than me. Well, now, currently what we deal with. But prior to this show, when I was just an actor, occasionally people were moved by what I did on parody Parenthood. They laughed a lot at stuff I did. They didn't have cathartic emotional breakthroughs. You know, your lane in particular, I think is going to warrant an asymmetric connection where it's like you really connected with my soul and opened up something. And I don't even know what to do with this. We have it from the show. I just did a bunch of meet and greets for my beer company and I met so many fucking beautiful listeners of the show. And they're saying, like, my brother OD'd or I've repaired my relationship with my parents. They're addicts. You know, this kind of stuff. And I'm presuming that's the level of connection people are having with you. And I love it, cherish it. Feels so lucky to be receiving it. And it's very emotionally exhausting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I think for me, that particular kind of connection has been happening since the Color Purple, really and truly. So that kind of cathartic release and people's stories and people coming together, breaking the stories of abuse, those things have come up and people have been really open with me about the things they've been going through because of these women that I've been able to play and the stories that we get to tell. And during my concerts as well, people come together. There's something that happens in these spaces. I'm really grateful that that is what people experience with me. But I do have to be, like, protective. Yeah. Because otherwise I'll just arms open wide all day.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's like when someone writes a cancer survival memoir that's popular, inevitably what you're going to hear when you Meet people who loved it is their cancer journey or their parents cancer journey, which is totally appropriate, but also, it's a lot.

[Monica Padman]

You can't carry all those.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And it's very hard not to, because I actually care. Every time someone takes the time to tell me a story, I'm listening. I feel their feelings. Because there's nothing worse than trying to tell someone a story and them not even bothering to, like, look you in the face.

[Dax Shepard]

No. Then you're invisible.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I never want anyone to feel like that with me. So I take a lot of time to speak with people and be with people after shows, and I can be there for, like, an hour and just be there with people.

[Dax Shepard]

No, your only solution is to not leave your house.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's not healthy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So after those shows, after those performances, whenever I've had all of that outside of it, I have to find spaces for me to just be like me, find places where I could be meditative. And for me, running or walking gives me space to just, like. I'm just gonna think. I'm gonna reconfigure my brain. I'm gonna free up some space for myself, because it's really the only way I can do it.

[Dax Shepard]

I remember being depressed in my 20s, living in Santa Monica and just kind of hopeless, and I'd be like, just walk out your door and just walk. And I'd walk, like, five miles, and I'd get back. I'm like, okay, yeah, I can keep going. What a magical thing to walk.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's so great. It has really helped me. I went to Greece and I filmed a little film called Drift. And that was really terrifying and hard and heartbreaking, the whole lot. And what I would do every day before we would start filming is either run or walk miles. And it would just sort of reset everything. The practice has just never changed.

[Monica Padman]

That's great.

[Dax Shepard]

At some point, for your mental health, you're gonna have to, like, do some silly science. Something.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Some silly something.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Because Drift, Harriet, Color Purple, like, you're kind of living.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If we think about it, even Wicked isn't really a silly project.

[Dax Shepard]

You're getting your ass kicked.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I'm pulling out everything from the depths of me. I think on the outside, people go, oh, it's fun. And then they get and they're like, what?

[Dax Shepard]

What is great about Wicked? And again, I can't believe I'd never seen the musical, but I didn't know anything about the story, which was great.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I really appreciate people who have not seen it at all. And are coming to the movie Fresh.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I tell you? I went back to our interview with Adina and she told this crazy story. You know, she got really hurt on stage one time, and then they had to rush her to the hospital. And she was saying this in the interview and like, I'm all green. And I'm like, I don't know what that mean. She can't really be all green.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, you didn't know?

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't know. I didn't even know she was all green in that. And then I saw you and I was like, oh, my God. Now that story makes sense. She was in the ER completely green. That's nuts.

[Monica Padman]

In her outfit.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, gosh.

[Monica Padman]

So funny.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's such a great. I don't want to call it a trope that feels dismissive, but it's a great architecture to watch someone just fucking take it on the chin. It's gut wrenching. I hate it. Especially the justice warrior, me. I want you to go like, hey, fuck all y'all. I'm better than all y'all. I'm maddened by it. And it's so sticky and good and great story.

[Monica Padman]

We got to go see it in a theater. And it was so exciting. And I saw the play many years ago. I guess I forgot the whole thing. It started and I was like, what? I don't remember any of this. And then we were with a friend and she went to the bathroom and she came and I was like, this movie is so sad. I hate what is happening to her.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

You do such a good job of not playing it with pity, but you feel for that. And I was like, I'm her. I was like, so. You know, I'm her. And I hate this for everybody, especially me. It was fantastic. You're so good in it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you. But I do have to do something silly at some point. I don't know what the silly thing is. I just did a really cool. I mean, there is silliness in it, and I had a great time doing it. We did an episode of Poker Face with Natasha Leone and Ryan Johnson, and I had the best time doing it. And there is a lot of silliness. I got to use my funny bone there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I think drama's always going to follow me. I think the dramatic bone is always going to be there. There's always going to be heart in something.

[Dax Shepard]

This is not a popular opinion that I have, but I have it. And I don't know where this comes from in me, but I'm a white Trash kid. And I got to grow up and be free of that. And I don't have to tell the story of every socially and financially disenfranch franchise person. And I have always felt a little bit of sympathy. If you're famous and you're black, there feels like some obligation. Like, you can't not be political. That's just not on the table for you. And although I think it's great to pursue those things, I also think it's yet another thing that's not fair about the whole experience. You finally transcended this, and now you also need to be a social leader for me and for you, I imagine, like, telling these stories. Do you feel some obligation? Like, yeah, I'm the best person to tell the Color Purple story. I'm obliged to do so.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There is a part of me that is like, yes, sometimes I want to just do some great stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the politics of me being a black, queer woman fashionista. I try, but I don't know if I have that choice. And so I kind of just accept it and try my very, very best to pick the things that have the widest view of what humanness looks like. I want to dance in the gray area always. I'm not particularly interested in characters that are only liked. I'm not particularly interested in characters that are just heroes. I want the complicated, icky space, the Gary Oldman career. I want that. I want to be able to do all of those things, and I want it to be okay. I have less worry about it than often. Sometimes studios and streamers do. They're like, oh, but what makes her redeemable? Do we like her? And I'm always like, I don't know if the character cares if you like her or not also.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think that's Sopranos.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The most successful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Nobody asks if Tony Soprano is likable. We just watch it. Nobody asked if American Psycho was going to be liked. I think it's okay if we can get those kinds of characters where the face is mine. We'll all be okay if we start really diving into those spaces and not being like, it's because she's black. It's just because she's human and she has darkness and light in her.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what's kind of clever about Wicked is she's green.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. It's all the difference that a person can be.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I loved the idea of being able to play her because there is no requirement for me to play her as just good or Perfect the entire time. She makes mistakes, she fucks up, she gets it wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Ariana is perfect. Well, but we immediately don't like that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that's the thing. They're both fallible beings. They're both fallible humans. They rub up against each other. They're not great with each other either. It's not like Glinda's horrible and Elphaba doesn't give it back, they give it to each other. They're mean to each other for a long time. They say horrid things to each other until they realize, oh, we feel just as outcast as each other in spaces. Yours is more obvious, mine is not. I'm trying to live up to something that is beyond me and I can't get to a place that you are in. And I'm in the difference my entire life. So the experience of the world is very, very different.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, the most important thing is neither's thriving from the identity they've taken on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No. Because neither one of them at the beginning actually take on who they're meant to be. It takes them having to be like this could be to my complete destruction. But I have got to be myself because it's the only way that I can actually fully exist. And that's when shit really takes off.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Oh my God. So good. We love John Chu. We've known John for forever. He's the director, truly is one of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The most incredible people on the planet. Just a good human being. Watching him work is really fun. He's so excited by it and he's like finding things at the same time. We're finding things and then the ideas keep going back and forth. Should we try this? Do you want to try it one more time? And it's just so thrilling the entire time. And this is what it's like for months and months on end. And the thing is, he won't say he's tired. And I'll be like, John, you're tired. I need you to sit down. You need to take a break. Have you had something to eat? What are you eating? This is trash. I'm going to get you some vegetables and some like nuts. Let's get you some sugar free sweets instead of having like all that sugar because it's not going to help. He's the kind of person that you want to be well, because he wants you to be well. He's creating this atmosphere that is so infectious and it sounds really cliche and very factious, but it's not. That's how we did this and that's not to say that it was easy. It's just to say that because the atmosphere was set up in the right way, the things that were difficult were pleasurable. At the same time, you could actually enjoy doing the hard work.

[Dax Shepard]

When you're a carpenter and you're building a house, it's hard.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

But it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Fuck.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it rewarding? Yes. Like, it's all going right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exactly.

[Monica Padman]

And it's so rewarding when people see the movie. It is shocking what he's done. I mean, it is incredible.

[Dax Shepard]

It's visually choreography.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. I was like, how did he do this? How did he think this? It's incredible. But I can imagine because there's so many moving parts, it'd be easiest for him to just be tough.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So the fact that he was fun and engaging was a big feat and.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Really caring, because he asked me at the very beginning whether I wanted to do the makeup or whether I wanted to do cgi. There was a question. It was like. So here's the deal, Cynthia. If you do this makeup, it's going to add three hours to your call time every day, and it's going to be hard to do that because these are long days and you're going to add to it.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm more worried about taking it off. Putting it on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Taking it off took an extra hour, hour and a half.

[Dax Shepard]

And is that bad for your skin?

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know what? My skin was in the best.

[Monica Padman]

So you said yes?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I said, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Why did you say yes? You wanted to look in the mirror and. Yeah, I get that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't want to leave my trailer and have, like, dots on my face.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I see your hands? I couldn't tell if it was. Your nails were so long if you were wearing some kind of hand thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, my nails were done.

[Dax Shepard]

Nothing was happening with your hands?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Nothing was happened with my hands. I have very long fingers.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, very long fingers.

[Dax Shepard]

This is very.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My nails are very long right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I ask you a really crazy question? It's inappropriate.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Go on.

[Dax Shepard]

When you're wiping your butt.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I knew you would ask that question. I knew. I know, but everyone thinks it.

[Dax Shepard]

Everyone's afraid to ask it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, because. No. No one's afraid to ask it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, is everyone asking that?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Everybody asks questions, though. No. Everybody asks that question.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Very cliche.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And my answer is, nobody uses just their fingers to wipe their backside. You use tissue.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, sure.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Correct. And you wipe.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I guess my question is, does the tissue go on the tip of the fingernails, or do you try to get the tissue on the pads of the fingernails. Okay, great, great, great, great. We're getting somewhere. And then. Okay, and then you're just feeling a little tickle of the nails on your crack of your butt sometimes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, because the tissue's there. You don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you're covering. I wonder. Okay, what I would do if I were you is I would wrap my whole. I'd make a mitten.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I fold.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, you're a folder. I bunch now.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you offended by that question? Are you like, I get it? Well, I get annoyed by it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm annoyed by it. I'm like, come. Come on, guys. But I get it. But it's also like I'm a functioning adult and I've never walked around smelling like.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, no one thinks that. In fact, everyone thinks you smell so good. It begs the question, how are you wiping your tush?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Very well.

[Monica Padman]

They're saying. What they're saying when they're asking is, I would never be able to wipe properly. It's a problem with them.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's a problem with them. And here's the thing. There are people who do not have nails who need to check how they wipe big time.

[Dax Shepard]

I agree.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know what I'm saying?

[Dax Shepard]

This isn't a pass on everyone without nails.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is what I'm saying.

[Dax Shepard]

So everyone's asking that question.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Everyone's asking that question.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I kind of thought everyone would think that, but not be bold.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, no, People are bold. They are.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, you can handle it. I need to handle it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

People are always like, how do you get anything done with those nails? And I'm like, I mean, I'm here.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I got here somehow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm dressed.

[Dax Shepard]

I love them. I was just thinking of the ergonomics.

[Monica Padman]

In that exact situation.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you so much. But, yeah, because the nails would change with the scene. Sometimes you would shoot two different things in one day. So the nails would change in the middle of the day.

[Dax Shepard]

Can we go back in time for a second?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You originally to University of East London.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

And you were majoring in psychology of Music or music Psychology.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Music psychology, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What is music psychology?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It is the study of the way in which music affects the psychological state of a person based on where they live, their social standing. What's the word I'm looking for? Based on, like, elitism, socioeconomic standing. Yeah. Status. And then when you get down to the fine points of it, what is within music itself. So the way in which the note structures can affect the way a person hears the music and what it does to a person's mood and a person's psyche. So this is sort of layman's terms. If you hear a song in a minor key and the lyrics happen to be sad or without lyrics, it tends to evoke a sad emotion. Or if you hear music with a major key, even if the lyrics are sad, you will evoke a happy mood. There's a song and I hate to pick this, but I pick it because it's the one thing on my mind and she's with me all the time. The song called One Life Time that Ariana Grande has One last time I need to be the one who takes you home.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm so happy. I was praying you would sing at least for a second and you just did. So thank you. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. Apple Card is the perfect card for your holiday shopping when you use Apple Card on your iPhone, you'll earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including products at Apple like a new iPhone 16 or Apple Watch Ultra. Apply now in the Wallet app on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and [e-mail] we are supported by Amazon Luna Luna is Amazon's cloud gaming service that lets you play video games like you stream shows and movies straight from the cloud, no console required. With Amazon Luna and a high speed Internet connection, you can play games on almost any screen. Play on fire tv, tablets, smartphones and even a browser window. Amazon Luna has hundreds of games from the latest releases to beloved classics. We're talking Star Wars Outlaws, Arkham Knight, Sonic Mania and so much more. This is great. If you just got your phone on you and you want to kill some time at the airport, pop over to Amazon Luna and play some of these great games. Prime members can play select games free, including Fortnite and a rotating monthly selection of games from across the Luna library. Go to luna.Amazon.com to get gaming we are supported by Expedia. Having an adventure on the books gives you somewhere to look forward to.

[Monica Padman]

The excitement, the anticipation, just living in.

[Dax Shepard]

The fantasy of it. And that's why Expedia Hotels.com and VRBO have launched Unpacked 2025, an annual report on the trends in travel for the upcoming year. It's a great way to figure out where you want to go on your next adventure. We checked out the Unpacked25 site and it's really, really cool. They have a section called Detour destinations that highlights lesser known cities near major travel spots. So let's say you're thinking of traveling to Cancun. Why not venture off the beaten path for a couple days to check out Expedia's detour destination, Cozumel. Now Cozumel, Mexico is fantastic. I've been. That's a great detour. Hey, maybe you could even make Cozumel your vacation's main destination, because there's nothing better than traveling. But having a trip to look forward to is a close second. Find your somewhere to look forward [e-mail] unpack25 if you want to sing more at any point.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But her version, which is the seminal version, is in a major key and it's up tempo. When you hear it, you don't realize that it's actually a heartbreak song. People dance.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Then there is a band called Third Story who changed the key and took the tempo right down. And now it becomes a heartbreaking.

[Monica Padman]

People are crying.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And now you make people cry.

[Monica Padman]

Whoa, that's fascinating.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it is.

[Dax Shepard]

And do you find there's two different camps of people? So Monica and I are in different camps. I'm obsessed with music. It's a huge part of my life, but it's generally the music, the singing. Sure. It's not the lyrics for me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And so Monica's heavily driven by lyrics. I have even shared a couple songs with Monica and she'll be like, well, this song's a real bummer. And I'm like, it is. And then like, oh, yeah. It's kind of about batter. I've completely missed it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm the camp that sits right in between because I think both of those things have inherent value. Let's take Mozart's Lacrimosa. Nobody knows what those lyrics are. Lacrimosa means to cry. But you wouldn't know that unless you go and look up the lyrics. And you know Latin, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But you know that the music itself is deeply sad. That's what it sounds like. So it's sad.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, you're sad.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But the lyrics, though, they mean to cry. It is actually about forgiveness in a way, you know, so it's actually not a sad song necessarily.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a double trick, which is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which is why I'm in both camps, because even the happiest song can actually mean something very, very different. We can dance when we're happy we can dance when we're sad. Both have value. Like, I'll listen to the lyrics all day long, but sometimes I just want to hear the music. Sometimes it's the music that moves me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. One of the most interesting things about music to me this was what I studied in college, which is cultural anthropology. I'll be in other countries and I'm listening to the music that everybody loves and I'm like, how on earth do they like this music?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right, right, right.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's so cultural. Largely when I'm in Mexico and I hear all German inspired, their musical genre in Mexico is polka dot.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, yes.

[Dax Shepard]

So the bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom. And I go like, yeah, if I grew up in Mexico, I would love.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What you're hearing, of course.

[Dax Shepard]

And that is fascinating. You think a music somehow objective to some degree. And it's not.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it's what's really interesting about what's happening with. There's a music called Afrobeats which is happening right now and it seems to be growing tentacles and spreading out everywhere. Whereas before I grew up with it and it's developed and it evolves and it changes ever so much. So it's become a little bit popularized. But if you go back 50 years, the rhythms are still very similar. The tonal qualities are still very similar. So you still hear the same types of notation, but lyrically it becomes different. And the way we've put it together has become different and young people have started to listen to it. That was why I was interested in this particular subject. But I think I was too early for it. I needed to go and do this thing I'm meant to do, which is.

[Dax Shepard]

This because you bailed, right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't even go to RADA straight away. I went to like a Young Actors Company program at a local theater because I was like, I'm not doing this. I don't think this is right for me. So I left and I went to this Young X Company. And at the Young X Company I was, I mean, I use the word forced fondly to go and study at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. And I say it because this wonderful mentor of mine would not allow me to do. Do this particular program unless I signed up for an audition.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow, she blackmailed you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. She was like, you sign up for an audition, you come to this. You don't, you can't. And I was like.

[Monica Padman]

Good for her. Fine.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Begrudgingly signed in to do an audition, thinking this will be short lived. It's not going to happen. I'm not going to get in. We're cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Really. Quick. Why didn't you want to go there?

[Cynthia Erivo]

There was no point because I was not going to get in.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, there we go.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was not going to get in.

[Monica Padman]

I'm just asking. Get rejected.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You mean me? A girl from southwest London who moved to East London is now going to go to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts? In what world? That's a nonsense idea.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No one's ever flagged it for me before, so why on earth? It's not going to happen. And then I got in.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And did you like it immediately because you're now the vice president?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I.

[Dax Shepard]

What does that mean?

[Monica Padman]

You are.

[Dax Shepard]

Is that a ceremonial position? How on earth do you have time to be a vice president of a fucking college? This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God. It's so. I swear to you, it's the most ridiculous thing in the world. Because here's the thing. My time at RADA was not easy. I was the oddball. I was a true East London girl who just was myself. And I was, like, the one girl who really loved music. And like, I left, I was gonna do a backing vocal gig before I came to the school that was gonna pay for the school. And they said no. I was doing gigantic at night. And I was the only person that was doing that kind of thing in this school. So I really had figured out my jobs.

[Dax Shepard]

This is John Batiste, too. Do you remember when he's at Juilliard and he wants to be performing?

[Monica Padman]

This is for people who are in America and don't know. It is Juilliard basically, correct.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. It's the same space, the same level.

[Dax Shepard]

It had Royal in the title, and.

[Monica Padman]

I assume that, yeah, they might have some sort of connection.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think they have a little connection. If not, I'm trying to make it happen.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that should be one of your tasks as vice president.

[Monica Padman]

President.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I've given it to myself. I think that might be a really good idea. Like exchange studenting, maybe, kind of thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, sure. Some professor swaps. Maybe everyone wants. In London.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Here's the thing. I would go to Juilliard and sit and chat with the students, because I do actually teach at rada.

[Dax Shepard]

You do?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

You currently teach?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I currently teach.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

World.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You're going to kill yourself.

[Monica Padman]

Are you the type that'll just run yourself into the ground?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I try not to, but I think it's going to happen. I think it's going to happen this year.

[Dax Shepard]

This is the year.

[Monica Padman]

It's a lot.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I do. I think it's gonna happen because there's just like a lot going on and I'm actively trying to work at RADA and do the things I need to do because I don't believe in taking on a title if you're actually not gonna do the work. I vehemently detest that. I don't want to be the vice president just because ceremonial I'm not interested. And I know that there's stuff to be done. And I also love working with the students at rada. And I try and get there every year for at least a week Intensive workshop with the third year students. What I want to do is meet them in the first year, have a little time with them in the second, and then have the intensive in the third. So there is something that they work with throughout. They're not just meeting me the first time in the third year, but now they'll see me more often because, well, I'm there.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to ask you a very vice president inappropriate question.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Go.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you in love with any of your teachers?

[Cynthia Erivo]

In love? As in in love crushes, like.

[Monica Padman]

Well, okay, I was in love with one of mine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Monica was in love with one of her teachers.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Still pines for. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know what he's up to these days, but boy, was he attractive and so smart.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you have any crushes on your teachers?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't think so.

[Dax Shepard]

You didn't? That's fair. I didn't have any on mine either.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No.

[Monica Padman]

Theater space is very intimate, though.

[Dax Shepard]

I was only going to ask, like, if I was teaching at 37 at a college, I think I would be mildly like, oh, Jesus, does this person have a crush? Because there's a weird magic to the whole thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm going to ignore any of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Yes, yes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm going to be like, don't know, don't want to know.

[Monica Padman]

Paying attention.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Don't tell me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you have me confused with a human. I am an acting teaching robot.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm also aware of what I'm walking into this.

[Dax Shepard]

I'd fall in love with you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

No, you are.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think I would for sure. Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I don't know that people would fall in love with me as a me. I think they're falling in love with the idea.

[Dax Shepard]

But aren't people always falling in love with the idea of the other person?

[Monica Padman]

I guess we fight about this all.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think so. I think people fall in love with the idea of a person until they allow themselves to fall in love with the actual person.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. With great Luck.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

You end up falling in love with the real person, but more often you go, oh, no. This whole thing was a personality.

[Monica Padman]

But then if you're on the other side of it, if you're Cynthia, then you're like, oh, this person's in love with me. And then you run the risk of them finding out about the real you and them being like, oh, I'm not interested in that.

[Dax Shepard]

But she'll be doing the same to that person, because that person would have captivated some other fantasy and imagination. So it'd be complimentary, I think, but.

[Cynthia Erivo]

When it comes to the school of it all, I'm here to teach you and take you through and help you.

[Dax Shepard]

I shouldn't have even asked you that question. You're in a compromised position as a. I would never.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I'm also aware of what I walk in the room with. I know that there's a lot. And I think I'm getting used to what that even is.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm going to suggest someone more likely would think they're in love with you, but what they're in love with is they want to be you. You'd be very aspirational. It's like, I want to be an empowered woman who's got a Tony and a Grammy. And so you would represent some kind of fantasy wish fulfillment. And that could be misinterpreted as love as well.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And the thing is, I would say to that person, you do not want to be me. You want to be the best version of yourself. You don't know if you want to do all the things or go through all the things. I've already been through. My shit's made for me.

[Dax Shepard]

But when you're at that age, you can't tell.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, you just like, I'm looking at Nicholas Cage and I want to be that. I think for me, in the perfect world, I think I would be, like, the love child of Cicely Tyson and Barbra Streisand.

[Dax Shepard]

Who's Cicely Tyson?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm so sorry. I'm very sorry. With all apologies.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't either.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank fucking God. I was sure it was a white guy thing.

[Monica Padman]

I was leave you out.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You got to look her. She passed away a few years ago at, like, the age of 94, I think it was.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's good. 96.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She made it to 96. What a quitter.

[Dax Shepard]

She almost made it to 100.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We really wanted her to get to 100. And she was strong. She was one of the most incredible actresses ever. British American. And she shaved her head just like me. I read her autobiography. It's the most fascinating thing. She had a torrid relationship with Miles Davis.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's a wild ride.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Tells you all about that. She was in. She was in Roots. Most people probably know her best for how to get away with Murder. She was Anneliese Keating's mother. Oh, but she's just brilliant. The way she used her hair as a statement constantly throughout her life was just really inspiring. So whether it was doing Bantu knots or getting it cornrowed or shaving it off or leaving it as an Afro, there's a really beautiful image of her. When she is nominated, I think for Sounder for the Oscar where she goes with like flowers in her hair. She's special, special, special. So that combination of her and Barbra Streisand. And Barbra Streisand I picked because of the Renaissance woman effect that she has over her own life and the way in which she was able to translate music and song and acting and do all of this vast arena of things.

[Dax Shepard]

She's one of our few. I always say this about Taylor Swift when people try to figure out what is the magic that's happening. For me, a big part seems like, at least through my little girl's eyes, is that she is a fully formed self created matriarchy. And I would argue Barbara was a early. Like created her own matriarchy world around herself. Yeah, I can see that as inspirational.

[Monica Padman]

It seems like you are the combination of them and especially Renaissance. You're the vice president, you're an academic, you're covering a lot of graphics.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Leave some for the rest of us, bro. With all this said, how mentally prepared do you feel like you are for a wicked. Because I can't imagine you are.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I want to kid myself and be like I'm really ready for it. I think in a way I am. But there's always the aspect that you have no idea what's coming. You can't have the future. I have no idea what this will be, full stop. But I think I'm open. That's as far as I can take myself. I'm open to the possibilities of what this might be. I'm very, very, very grateful for the chance to do something of this magnitude because it doesn't come along often.

[Dax Shepard]

No. I feel like I have some insight into what you're going to go through, which is I think this thing will be what Frozen was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think you'll have parents for the next five years coming up and complaining to you that their kid will not stop listening to a certain song over and over and over, over again.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I think you'll have a lot of parents bringing over young children to meet you at the table. But the children have no clue what's going on.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't understand what you're telling me.

[Monica Padman]

That's the part that's going to be different and harder perhaps. Because when it happens to Kristen, sometimes the kids are like, what? That's not her cartoon.

[Dax Shepard]

What are you talking about?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right?

[Monica Padman]

And they're gonna see you as a person.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank God you're not green.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I know. In real life you should fuck around.

[Dax Shepard]

One time, just go out, it's green. When this thing really peaked, you should go set up shop.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Cheesecake Factory. Can you imagine? Insane.

[Dax Shepard]

So I guess I have one remaining question about kind of how you got to this place. Because we didn't talk about your childhood as much as I like to. How old were you when mom and dad got divorced?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mom and dad didn't get divorced.

[Dax Shepard]

They weren't married.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They were never married.

[Dax Shepard]

They were never married.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But I was 16 when my dad decided not to be a part of my life.

[Dax Shepard]

How frequently were you seeing him?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Maybe two or three times a week. His choice. My mom was really, I think, kind.

[Dax Shepard]

And not talk about him to you ever. That's so nice. My mom did that as well. And as you get older, don't you respect it even more?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because now I'm completely respect it.

[Dax Shepard]

It almost seems impossible.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I honestly can't believe it. And gave him the space to come and visit if he wanted to. We would go over to his from time to time as well. She'd like really made the space for us if he wanted to build a relationship. To build a relationship. And he just didn't.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he struggling with stuff?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, I think he just was not set up to be a dad. I don't think it was his bag.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I read Jada Pinkett Smith's book and there is a section in the book where she talks about her father. And it really clicked for me when I read this part. She said that there are some parents who are meant to be parents. They're meant to shepherd their children into the world, make sure that they are taken care of and they are good with them. And there are other parents who are meant to literally get them here. And that is it. And we can't forget that each parent is still a human being. They are a human being before they're a parent. And I'm okay. That made everything really clear for me. That doesn't remove hurts and pain that I had been through and have worked to work through.

[Dax Shepard]

Does it materialize in relationships?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think it did, but you have.

[Dax Shepard]

Your arms around it now.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But, yeah, thank goodness, good therapists, because that shit really helps.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you generally attracted to people? You had some subconscious notion that they were going to abandon you?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Unavailable people.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Isn't it funny how fucking generic it is? Like, oh, what's the situation with this kid? Okay, I'll tell you exactly what's going.

[Cynthia Erivo]

To happen in 12 years. You know, that they're predisposed to, like, actually go away at some point.

[Dax Shepard]

You sense it somehow. The second you're so hot for somebody, that should be your huge clue that there's some parental damage underneath of it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Nuts.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's ridiculous. Until you get your head around it and you get some control on what it is that you're actually looking for, what you're trying to fix in that it just will keep going.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you agree? I had to go. Oh, wow. I actually have to actively go the opposite direction of what I want. I got to experiment with that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I had to be alone for a second. I have to figure out what the heck this is. What am I running away from? What do I want for myself? And also, I think I was using for a small amount of time my career as a conduit to, like, find a way to get him back.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. Look what you missed.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Look what you missed.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's a great engine.

[Monica Padman]

Look what you gave up.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Look what you gave up. You're gonna regret leaving this, that kind of thing.

[Dax Shepard]

What a great motivator that is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's fantastic. Until it doesn't work anymore.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Until it leaves you empty and you're like, what am I actually doing this one. I've not done this for myself, and I have to figure out how to do this for myself.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I think one of the great tricks in life that everyone has to figure out is what got you to the party isn't what's going to keep you at the party. And it's so hard to accept that or believe in that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. We got to try something else.

[Dax Shepard]

You need a new fuel source.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Let's change direction, pivot. Let's go somewhere else.

[Dax Shepard]

Got you here. All blessings to this thing. But it's actually going to get you asked to leave.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So you seem to have the same. Kristen has A really, really, really in depth knowledge of music and reading music and all the math that's associated with music. Where did you learn that? Did you learn that at Royal Academy?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I learned at secondary school or high school.

[Dax Shepard]

You went to a Catholic school?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did. So my music teacher there, Ms. Rycroft, who is so awesome, no one really understood her, but I really got her. She would pretend to be like this curmudgeonly teacher who just didn't like people, but actually she was funniest, most brilliant, most kind teacher to me ever. She was like, oh, I have your number right. I know what you are. You are a musician. And I'm going to make sure that you're always a musician. I see you. I was like, quickly accosted. And I learned to play the clarinet, so I learned to read music that way. And then she got me a viola, so I started doing that too. And I can't play any of these any anymore. But it meant that I could really actually read music. And I did music proficiency, all of that stuff, and did graded tests. The whole lot sing was happening in concert with all of that. They had a choir. I don't know how this happened, and I think it's because of Ms. Rycroft and strangely enough, my science teacher, Mr. Sappho J, who somehow put this together. We started singing with a big choir in the UK and we would do like requiems every year. I loved doing them because of the big sound of all these voices.

[Dax Shepard]

What's a requiem? My apologies.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So Requiem is a huge choral piece with all the voices. Tenors, bass soprano, alto, mez, soprano. And occasionally you'll have recitatives in between where they like solo lines that would end up with big choral numbers. And usually it's a long piece written but separated by particular movements. We did Carmina Burana and Carmina Burana. You wouldn't know the name. You would know the sound of Carmina Burana.

[Monica Padman]

We're gonna pretend like we don't know it. So you just keep going.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I don't know what you're doing. I bet if you ever measures.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Have you ever watched Romeo and Juliet? The Baz Lemon version. Love that musical. Big choral thing is that. And we did another piece called the Rutter Requiem by John Rutter, and that is one of my favorite pieces ever. But it contains a piece called Pie Su and there are like three different pa. Jesus. But these are the pieces that we would do. That's how I learned about classical singing. And so she made me learn Schubert, leder the whole lot So I expanded my classical taste in music at secondary school whilst running alongside with everything else and learning how my voice worked elsewhere and just my outside love of music. Anyways. And my mom is playing Aretha Franklin and Diana Ross in the car.

[Dax Shepard]

Erykah Badu.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. And I'm learning all of the.

[Dax Shepard]

How about Window Seat? Can we sing Window Seat?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Have I got a window? Window seat?

[Dax Shepard]

Don't want anybody next to me. I just wanna.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love it.

[Dax Shepard]

I love Erykah Badu.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's brilliant. She's one of the artist singers that has gotten better and better and better as time has gone on. I just recently saw her in concert in London.

[Dax Shepard]

How late was she? Because I've seen her four times.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She wasn't that late.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't believe you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, she wasn't.

[Dax Shepard]

She wasn't. Maybe she was still on American time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She wasn't late. I think she was maybe like 20 minutes, 10 minutes or something. And she was. Yeah, it was.

[Dax Shepard]

I've waited three hours to see her and I didn't care on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was amazing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Good.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Puma came out as well. It was so good. There's an artist called Duran Bernard. He does her backing vocals. But he's an amazing vocalist on his own. He was out. It was amazing. I went. My sister and my best friend, we had the best time.

[Dax Shepard]

She's a force.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my gosh. She had her jewelry in her hat. She had these really cool trousers. Pants that were like chaps, actually, but had, like, teddy bears on. It was just wild. The whole thing was wild. I was obsessed. It was brilliant. But, yeah, but that's how my proficiency for music, because I've had such a vast experience of it from loads of different sources onwards.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, you said the highlight is being in the stage and having that open line of communication with the audience. It's really happening. So I'm wondering, the moment in the Requiem.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you experience something in that insane mass of harmony that can compete with the other solo thing?

[Cynthia Erivo]

There's like 30 to 40 voices singing at once. Yeah. Or at the top of their voices.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

In harmony.

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta be like mdma.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my God. There's nothing like it. And it's ringing in your ears, but you can feel it in the back of your head at the same time. It's like a short circuit. And sometimes it's what I feel when an orchestra is playing all together, there's nothing like it.

[Dax Shepard]

You do realize how lucky you are, y'all?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, really, you're having an experience on Planet Earth that really very few people can ever touch.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My experience is sort of enhanced by the fact that I experience anesthesia. So I see color.

[Dax Shepard]

You have that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I see color when I hear music. So for me, it's like you're on, asshole. Sensory thing.

[Dax Shepard]

We understand that we are story creatures. We understand that we pass. Passed on our culture and our knowledge through story. We're starting to really understand it neurologically. But we haven't really cracked what music is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, no, no. You can talk about the science all day long and what it is and sound waves and all of that, but actually, we can't really crack the code on why it affects people the way it does. We can't crack how this piece connects with that person, but doesn't connect with this person. Why do we all understand this particular language? We might speak it differently, but there are a finite amount. Amount of notes.

[Dax Shepard]

My uncle who went to Juilliard, who is a trumpet player, he told me, yeah, mathematically, every single song's already been written.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

They'll never be a piece of music that's so wild.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The notes are the same. It's just how we experience it. Why do we experience it like that?

[Dax Shepard]

I think part of it is it seemingly has absolutely no purpose.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right. But it does.

[Dax Shepard]

It does.

[Monica Padman]

The most important purpose.

[Dax Shepard]

But it seems like a weird thing for a human to do at any given time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And there's something, I think, just starting with that premise, which is like, this serves no purpose is interesting. So we know we're doing it for some other calling. It's like the closest we have to touching something kind of mystical.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I believe that this might sound like the nerdiest thing I've ever said, but my favorite scale is chromatic.

[Dax Shepard]

Say it again.

[Cynthia Erivo]

All the notes in between. A chromatic scale.

[Dax Shepard]

A chromatic romantic scale.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Because it leaves none of the notes out.

[Monica Padman]

Ooh. But it's not just humans. Animals sing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They do.

[Dax Shepard]

Birds.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And they won't shut the up.

[Dax Shepard]

Whales, whales, songs.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They're all tonal notes. And music, however you experience it, it's the one thing that connects every single being on the planet. It's the one thing we all have in common.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're doing it at, like, the apex level.

[Monica Padman]

Lucky girl.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you for saying that.

[Dax Shepard]

Put too fine a point on how great wicked is. It's outrageous.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Monica Padman]

We don't love music in general, and we say that publicly. It says equal to me saying I don't like dogs, which is also true, but man, did it get me when.

[Dax Shepard]

You'Re experiencing some lip from somebody. You have to go through such a long list. You're like, is it because I'm a woman? Is it I'm small? Is it I'm Indian? Is that I hate dogs?

[Monica Padman]

Is that I hate musical things by the second?

[Dax Shepard]

You're not helping yourself figure out what's really going on in any way. What a delight to meet you, Cynthia. I really have enjoyed this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's been really fun.

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta urge people to go to. But I don't. In fact, I could say like, whatever you do, do not go on November 22nd to see Wicked and I know you'll be there.

[Monica Padman]

I bet everyone already has pre booked their ticket.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I hope so.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it a secret when the second one will come out?

[Cynthia Erivo]

The second one is coming out the same time next year.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

22Nd November next year.

[Dax Shepard]

And you film them both at once? Obviously.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Both at once.

[Dax Shepard]

How long that takes? A year.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That took about a year. We started rehearsals August 2022, started shooting.

[Dax Shepard]

December, so four months of rehearsals.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Wow. We needed it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We were doing like a Broadway show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. Started shooting it in December, came to a halt in June or July, I can't remember, for the writing strike or actor strike? Both. And then came back top of this year in January, finished in February.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. And Ariana's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She's fantastic. She's great. She's experienced a lot and she's a sweetheart. And what people don't realize is that she's experienced real heartbreak.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Again, back to the thing we were talking about, trying to figure out everything. So. Yeah. You have a package. Monica has a package. I have a package. The perfect end of the package also sucks sometimes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like very hard to be sympathetic to someone who looks like her and has her career. And she's just as worthy of anyone's sympathy. You love her, right? I've heard you talk about her. You guys have really fallen in love.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love her. She's a bright spark. But you just want to, like, take care of her.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Give her a big old hug. And we really took care of each other. This was like a big one for us. We used to joke that the two of us were like dust by the end of it because we were working to the bone. I mean, whatever scratches, scrapes, cuts, bruises you think you could get, we had them. The flying in harnesses, chafing. We had it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Chafing was like a funny word to me until I realized what chafing actually looked like. When you had it repetitively, it's almost.

[Dax Shepard]

A bed sore at that point.

[Cynthia Erivo]

My gosh. It took months for my hips to just heal. Scratched palms, bleeding. I had a bloody nose like it was mad. We were in this the whole way outside. She's got basically her arms out all the time. When it's cold, it's cold. There's nothing you could do about it. You want to fly outside? Okay, we're flying outside. Is it windy? Yes. Tough. We're going to do it anyway. Is it raining today? Yep. It won't show on camera, so we're going to do it. That kind of thing. We were willing to do whatever it took to do this. You want to be in at 3am being at 3am we're going to finish this makeup because we need to be on set by five.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, in some weird way, it's lucky you did it at this age because if you tried to do this at 45 with this long ass career, you'd be like, I am not getting in that harness.

[Monica Padman]

And it's rare that I know about chafing. I'm not doing.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's rare that I can ask women to feel bad for men, but I've spent a lot of time in harnesses too.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Just put a penis and balls in that same harness as well as everything else that's going on. You're in it sometimes going, well, this can't be how it is. Right. Like, this is probably going to destroy my reproductive capabilities.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But here's the thing. I'm going to top you there. I'm going to say, think of putting on a harness and then throw in a corset at the same time.

[Dax Shepard]

No, thanks.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because the corset's already hitting your hips. Right. And now you put the harness on top of the corset.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Your ribs hurt.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, you win. I adore you. I hope everyone goes and sees Wicked November 22nd. And I hope we end up interviewing you a dozen more times as you promote other things. Wonderful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Can I come back even if I don't have to promote something? Yes, of course. This was fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, Kristen has just started doing this thing on Sunday. She started a choir club.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my goodness.

[Dax Shepard]

So if you're ever here on Sunday, I'm sure she would love for you to come. And it's just a bunch of nerds like you guys singing together.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I would love that. Quiet club.

[Monica Padman]

It's really cool.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do you know how lovely that would be?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Cause there's no point to it. Other Than remembering that you love music.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, my gosh, I would love that. I will.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode. But we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. Oh, what now?

[Monica Padman]

No, I will put it on Do Not Disturb for you.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, oh, oh, oh. I thought you had a bad update.

[Monica Padman]

No, I don't have a bad update.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Monica Padman]

On a previous or upcoming. I'm not sure. Armchair Anonymous. You told me that you hate me because I don't put my phone on do not disturb.

[Dax Shepard]

That is that.

[Monica Padman]

That's how I heard it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's how you heard it. Okay, okay.

[Monica Padman]

So now I put it on do not disturb.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess those people will have to listen to Armchair Anonymous and. Or go back and listen. If it already came out, you should.

[Monica Padman]

Go back and keep listening.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Just in case.

[Dax Shepard]

Because of course I remember it. More of a playful. Hey, is there anything, like really trivial about each other that we want to air?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you tried to make it cutesy, but it wasn't.

[Dax Shepard]

It wasn't so cutesy.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

But yeah, I inquired, by the way, you don't have a case on your phone.

[Monica Padman]

I know because when I was Mary Kay and Ashley, the row era, I had to take the case off because they would never have a case.

[Dax Shepard]

You're absolutely right. You can't look.

[Monica Padman]

You, you can't look like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Like you're. You need to protect your phone. How low class.

[Monica Padman]

So embarrassing.

[Dax Shepard]

Funny enough, someone in the comments had like, someone wrote like totally off topic to the episode. But why aren't any of the people in TV shows or movies using a phone with a phone case on it? No one does this. And they were saying their anxiety of watching a phone and scenes without a case is a lot. So I said, you know, generally they have the permit, minimally the permission of the phone manufacturer. And so if the phone manufacturer is like, yes, you can use our product and they probably supply products, they don't want it all obscured with a phone case.

[Monica Padman]

The phone company wants it without the case so that you can see what the phone company is.

[Dax Shepard]

But if I like that you're calling it a phone company.

[Monica Padman]

But if you don't have approval, you do have to have a phone case on because you have to cover up or they.

[Dax Shepard]

What they call what's Greeking it. We'll find out if that holds up. But you Greek things on a set too. Or she. You obscure the logo a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Put a little tape over this and that you'll see a lot of. If people look closely, they'll see a lot of Mac computers being used in things. A little tape on it.

[Monica Padman]

Stickers or tape.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep. Covering up that logo. That, what a great logo, by the way. Not a sponsor.

[Monica Padman]

Not.

[Dax Shepard]

Not a sponsor, but what a cute apple.

[Monica Padman]

Although it's kind of.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm looking directly at yours, of course.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And we don't have.

[Dax Shepard]

We have not greeted it. No. My brother visited yesterday. How was it for just, I don't know, 12 hours. Wow. Because he was going on a cruise leaving out of Long beach, so he and my sister in law, Tammy came from 1pm Till the evening. And we went out to Cafe 101/Clark Street. It's not really Cafe 101 anymore. Had a lovely lunch, played spades, came back and then we wandered into here and we sat down and we just started chatting. And it was incredibly touching and connected and we were talking about our childhoods together and realizations we have. And there was even some damp eyes.

[Monica Padman]

At times from both of you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That's sweet.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And it was, it was really, really, really special.

[Monica Padman]

Did you guys hug?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we hugged when he got here and then we hugged a long time when he left.

[Monica Padman]

But did you hug in the moment in the middle?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Monica Padman]

That felt too much.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, just didn't feel terribly necessary. What we did is afterwards we played pickleball.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's fun. Okay, I do have a question about this. Like when people, when you're around someone and they have damp eyes because they're about to cry or they're crying a little bit.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't really necessarily know how to handle that always. Like I know how to handle it with my words.

[Dax Shepard]

Meaning you know how to say the right thing.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

But I don't because I didn't really grow up in an affectionate family, Physically affectionate family. Like, I don't know if I should touch them or not.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. So specifically whether or not to touch them.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Do you?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't feel a compulsion to touch people. And maybe this is arrogant, but when that happens to me and it's generally a man, like, if it's happening and it's another man, I immediately feel super flattered.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

The main feeling I have is like, I'm so lucky that this person feels comfortable doing this in front of me. It doesn't give me anxiety or like, I gotta do the right thing. To me, the right thing already happened, which is why they're doing it in front of you.

[Monica Padman]

But you don't feel the need to, like, help or comfort?

[Dax Shepard]

No, I don't feel any. Well, I inevitably will comfort and just will be talking. Talking about whatever it is they're. And I'll be hopefully dialed in and thoughtful and asking questions and. Yeah, but I get no anxiety. But I understand the anxiety.

[Monica Padman]

I only. I get anxiety about to touch or not.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just touching.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Your words are fine.

[Monica Padman]

As you say, I feel like sometimes I should, like, caress their hair. No, not caress their hair.

[Dax Shepard]

What if I start gently brushing my brother's hair back behind his ear? I mean, doesn't have enough to tuck behind his ear. Not that he can't. He couldn't. He has very thick hair above his ears.

[Monica Padman]

What if he started playing with the ear and the hair in his ear.

[Dax Shepard]

That's very sexual. I mean, so is putting the hair behind the ear.

[Monica Padman]

It is.

[Dax Shepard]

But no. No, I didn't. No. Now a full breakdown. Yes. I would have probably moved over to.

[Monica Padman]

That couch and would you have put your arm around.

[Dax Shepard]

I just put my arm around him and hoped that he wanted to hide his head in my shoulder.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

But that would have been a full breakdown.

[Monica Padman]

It needs to be, like, really bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I'm.

[Monica Padman]

I'm going to write down the rules. Rob, do you like to touch people when they cry?

[Dax Shepard]

I get like you. I get.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know what to do.

[Dax Shepard]

That would have been my guess. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Rob, here's a question. Rob.

[Monica Padman]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

So that. That totally makes sense for me. If it's Natalie, I know what to do. Other people and your children.

[Monica Padman]

There's exceptions.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But, Rob, do you think. And this sound. This sounds like I'm fishing for a compliment. I'm truly not. I'm just genuinely curious. We've been working nearly every day together for seven years. My. Do you think my willingness to do that with men has at all, like, rubbed off on you? Yeah, probably. Little bit. Yeah. Like, do you think, like, you would take a nice, long hug from me? Right. Yeah, I would. I mean, I have friends that I would. It's more. I'd love to hug you if you ever had a sad moment. If I needed to cry. Yes. If you want to schedule one, I'm totally available. I'll throw on the calendar.

[Monica Padman]

It depends on who it is. And it depends on how often that exchange happens. Like, how often you're crying around.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

There are some people who've definitely never seen me cry, who I'm close to.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

And then There are others who see me cry a lot. You.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, sure, sure.

[Monica Padman]

You've seen me cry a lot. Kristin's seen me cry a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Callie, I presume. Or do you keep it buttoned up? Right?

[Monica Padman]

No, she has. She. That's interesting. Actually, I don't keep it buttoned up. She's definitely seen it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And heard it. But this is how I am with family. I have a very quick trigger to cry in front of my parents, but. But I don't want to. So I'm always, like, trying to not. But it's like always right at the.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the best kind when you're acting and that's what you're supposed to do as an actor. You're supposed to try to not cry.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

You're trying to cry really hard and then the second it starts and you gotta act like you're not, and you're.

[Monica Padman]

Like, trying to keep it together. I learned that in college. I did learn it in college. Yeah. So I'm always like. It's right there. Emotions are just so heightened with your family. I have similar feelings in this environment.

[Dax Shepard]

Aha. Sure, sure.

[Monica Padman]

Where it's like, could happen at any time. The tears floodgates. I don't have that as much with her. I don't know why. It's not good or bad, I don't think.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Erin and I used to. We had this. I mean, we did this so often. We would laugh at ourselves for doing it, which is we would. Our thing was we drank with everybody, all of our friends. But he and I always went another three or four hours. Even from our most, you know, hard charging friends, there was always a few hours reserved for Aaron and I to just be together. Really hammered at the end of the night. And we would start going through childhood and we would have a good cry while we were hammered.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

We loved it. It was the only way we could talk about it. Yes. Get into all the stuff. And so, like, we kind of needed it. And yet we only did it when we were super hammered. But luckily we were hammered all the time together. So, yeah, we would do it and then we would wake up and we just laugh. Like, oh, yeah, we did that again. We just started crying together. Wow. While we were hammered.

[Monica Padman]

That's funny.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, it feels like somehow the subconscious was like, you gotta figure. Figure out a way to. This is your moment together. Like, however it needs to happen. You do need to probably have some cries together.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I've held Aaron a lot for sure.

[Monica Padman]

Aaron's very, very sensitive.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So wonderfully sensitive. Isn't it funny? Sensitive is like a pejorative. But it's so.

[Monica Padman]

It's not. To me, it's not.

[Dax Shepard]

You ever someone who's not sensitive?

[Monica Padman]

That's a patriarchal thing because people say. Think women are sensitive.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So they've decided that's a negative.

[Dax Shepard]

Women are sensitive.

[Monica Padman]

Thank God.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, thank God. I know. We need it so much.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a great segue.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I really wanted to promote the Martha Stewart documentary. Did you finish it?

[Monica Padman]

Not yet.

[Dax Shepard]

I knew you wanted.

[Monica Padman]

We still have to talk about substance. We keep adding.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, let's talk about. Do you want to talk about substance first? I mean, we're here talking about women. I think I want to talk about. I want to talk about Martha Stewart.

[Monica Padman]

Today's a big. Today's a. I know it's in a couple weeks.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That this is coming out. But today is a big day to talk about women. Women.

[Dax Shepard]

Why? Who is. Oh, why who?

[Monica Padman]

It's election day.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, but it's. But it's not two weeks later.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but I can't act like I'm not thinking about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. I'm not going to prevent you from anything. So Martha Stewart. If I just start with my own. Of course. I knew who she was all growing up. She's been a very prominent figure in culture forever. I remember when she became a billionaire. That was very big news. And then her incarceration, which I thought was insider. Not only did I think it was insider trading, I think I thought that's what she went to prison for. I also thought it was insider trading of her own company. Neither of those things are true. Which is fascinating. This is like an Amanda Knox story.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

And a Mar Jones story. This is another one. I bet we all remember it differently than what it actually was, but watching this doc, I admire her so much. And she's got some very unattractive sides.

[Monica Padman]

To her big time.

[Dax Shepard]

Which she kind of owns.

[Monica Padman]

Well, does she? Well, that's the part that.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the. Yeah. You got to get deeper into it. It's a phenomenal doc. I really want an interviewer. Of course. And I think it's great. I recommend it. And I can't wait for you to finish it because we can talk about, like, the, you know, pretty insane mis. Miscarriage of justice. Basically. America was sick of white collar criminals getting away with shit. It was in the air. And there was a lot of bad insider trading.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And no one gave a About the other people. They wanted a sacrificial lamb. They want. Everyone wanted someone to pay. And then you add in all the resentment people already have that she is a very successful, very rich, very powerful woman.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And whether anyone's aware of that or not while they're. I don't even blame. I don't think anyone was like consciously going, yeah, this is the wrong thing to do. I'm going to do it. I don't think that happened. But I don't think you're aware of how much you're responding to this thing you're threatened by and you don't even know you are in the world.

[Monica Padman]

Carry so many feelings that they don't understand about successful women.

[Dax Shepard]

It's very similar to the Kardashian hatred. It's quite similar because Martha was presenting the perfect life. She's in pursuit of perfection. And so people are simultaneously very attracted to that because we all like beauty and we like this stuff and it's very aspirational and wish fulfillment and then. And then you're mad you don't have it and she has it and you're jealous. Even though in her case, like she was physically doing it all herself. Like she's making floral arrangements and she's making the meals and she's all this stuff. But it's just there's a lot of things that are fun to look at in the doc. How complicated are all of our relationship is with high status people and particularly high status women and people who have what we want is, you know.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's complicated.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Very complicated. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to watch that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. The substance. Now, my prediction was. I don't know if it was a prediction. I was just like, it's unrelenting and very intense and I'm just curious how you're going to feel. What do you rate the intensity, the gore?

[Monica Padman]

So of course, it's so gory. It's so. It's very intense. It's so over the top. But I wasn't like, I don't think I was as disturbed as I was worried as you were anticipating.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I said then. And I was like, I'm not sure if this is gonna be true, but I wonder if women will watch this differently and will not think it's as intense as men do. I mean, it is, it is. It's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

Objectively. Objectively, an alien would go, wow, that's a really wild film the monkeys made.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Everyone's like kind of screaming. It's like kind of One of those where people are reacting loudly in a really fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Was it pretty packed when you went?

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

There was, there was like the five people were screaming.

[Dax Shepard]

Did anyone walk out? People walked out when I was. No.

[Monica Padman]

And that's like, to me the idea of someone walking out is a. Is funny to me.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I don't want to do any spoilers, but I just want to talk about the sewing of the skin.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you were.

[Dax Shepard]

That wasn't like, oh my God. I mean, I was fingernail stuff. No, this was. I, I mean that stuff is.

[Monica Padman]

I mean I was like, ew. Of course I was like, ew. Oh my God, this is so insane. But I was not like, oh my God, I gotta walk out. Oh, I gotta close my eyes. And like by the end of the movie I was dying, laughing. I was laughing out loud at like such a high frequency. I thought it became so funny to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So absurd.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair Expert if you dare blink and get more. Blink is your go to value brand for smart home security made simple. Blink's wired and wire free smart security devices work together to create affordable, convenient whole home coverage when and where you need it most. With Blink, you're able to see, hear and speak to people and pets right from the Blink app. With two way audio and crisp HD live view, you even get real time motion alerts on your smartphone so you can react and engage from anywhere. That's key right there.

[Monica Padman]

It's huge.

[Dax Shepard]

The motion detection is everything. And look, if you're concerned about wireless security products not having a long battery life, worry no more. The Blink wireless camera and video doorbell systems have a powerful two year battery life. That's two years of smart security coverage for simple peace of mind. Plus you can easily set up your Blink devices in just minutes. Everything you need to get started is included in the box your device comes in. No professionals needed. To learn more About Blink, visit Amazon.com Blink Blink and get more. I have that with violence in movies, you know, or it starts making me laugh so hard. Some of the violence in Goodfellas, some of the violence in Tarantino movies, it's just. Yeah, I think it is interesting.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think there's something there, right? I think because for you, since violence is a real was a reality big time, you can see it a little differently or you can like you maybe you know when it's hit an absurd threshold.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And because for me, violence is just scary and it's all violence. It's all Scary. It doesn't matter.

[Dax Shepard]

Even you don't know what's comedic and what's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And so I would, I wouldn't laugh at that. But this is like. Yes. I'm so clear as to when like body gore has hit another level or when. When the message of the female body has like escalated to a different point. It's such an incredible message. It's so true. Speaking of successful women, it's cast so perfectly because demonstrated Moore is so gorgeous.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

She's so beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

She's a knockout. Yep.

[Monica Padman]

She has aged incredibly gracefully. She looks incredible.

[Dax Shepard]

When you were my age to me more because she was perfectly the right age above me where she was like this incredibly exotic young 20 year old when I was like 15 or whatever.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Jess said that he, he was in love with her.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. And I was transcended.

[Monica Padman]

I know I said a lot. Well, what do you want to do? Eat around it?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Do people know that? I think it's worth repeating.

[Monica Padman]

It's worth repeating if you listen to Monica and Jess loves boys.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Monica and Jess love boys. That was one of our early spin off shows, was a long time ago at this point. We did a 10 episode show with Jess where him and I were so opposite but we were on like dating missions basically. And it was such a fun show. Another show I'm really proud of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Speaking of.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, let's add now because people for so many years have wanted to know why you guys didn't do a second season. And I think it's important to just say that you realize if you are actually going to find love, this was not the right way. You had to prioritize your real.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it felt a little cheap. You know, we put out the questionnaires and people responded and once we were going through them, I was like, yeah, this is. We're just making a show. And it wouldn't really be about the real thing.

[Dax Shepard]

And that feels not your real life informing the show. The show is going to start informing your real life. And that's. That's a dicey road.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyways, that's why we didn't.

[Dax Shepard]

But he had girlfriends in high school.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, he had girlfriends. Jess is gay. If people don't know that he had girlfriends in high school. And we'd be like, well, did you like, what'd you guys do physically? Or would you. And he was like, why would you around it?

[Dax Shepard]

Which by the way feels very sexy. Just having someone eat my thighs and get close. They were probably like teetering on the Verge. It might have been better than actual what High School Boys were doing directly.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It's worth perhaps going back and listening to that show just to hear him describe that. Speaking of that, actually, we have a feed. It's called Armchair Limited. It is where all our old series live.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yo.

[Dax Shepard]

Great. People are curious about that.

[Monica Padman]

If you ever want to go back and listen to any of these fun things.

[Dax Shepard]

We've done race to 270. A lot of people have been asking me, like, where's race to 270?

[Monica Padman]

270. Race to 30, 35. So anyway, all our old shows are on there. It's really fun. If you want to go.

[Dax Shepard]

Armchair Limited. Armchair Umbrella Limited series. Armchair Umbrella Limited series.

[Monica Padman]

But I think if you type in Armchair Limited, you can. It'll pop up. Anyway, I asked, did you eat? Did you want to eat around it? And he said, no, I just wanted to write her letters.

[Dax Shepard]

Ah, okay. He was more of like. What do they call that? Mother.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Someone called me that the other day, and I was so flattered. So cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Anywho.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyhow.

[Monica Padman]

So substance. Yeah. Like, she's so gorgeous and perfect, and so when she's starting to do. Go down this road where she's taking a substance. Younger. Yes. You're like, why? You don't need to do this. Why are you doing this?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And. And then you see the young person, and as a woman, and this is so sad. But as women, you're like, oh, Like, I guess I kind of get it. I, like, I understand why she wants that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It's so fucked up. It is so fucked up what we do to aging women in this society. We really cast women aside.

[Dax Shepard]

It's asymmetric for sure.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. The way they shoot the men in the movie is hilarious.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Yes. All fish. Ey. Disgusting. He's always eating shit. Oh, God.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's fine. Out of his mouth.

[Dax Shepard]

See Substance.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. See substance. I want to. We have facts. But also. And this is for Cynthia. She was incredible. Cynthia.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What a blast that was.

[Monica Padman]

I have to tell you, any day now. I think we might get unplugged. The SIM is hitting new levels.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, okay. Yesterday I was in Culver City. I'm never in Culver City.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

It was so random. It was kind of laughing minute.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Decided to go.

[Dax Shepard]

Decided to go to Culver City last minute.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

What on earth was in Culver City?

[Monica Padman]

Jess is helping open a new restaurant.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And I told him I would come.

[Dax Shepard]

Be a patron.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly. And. But I was like, really? On the fence. I didn't know if I was. Whatever. And last minute I was like, I guess I'll go. I wanted to beat traffic, so I went early. I went at like this random time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I park. I'm just sitting in the car. I'm on the phone and I look over and Molly is staring at me through my car window.

[Dax Shepard]

Richardson.

[Monica Padman]

Molly Richardson.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Molly Richardson, who also does not live in Culver City, is never in Culver City. Happened to be meeting for lunch. No. Exactly. Happened to meeting a friend for lunch there. And like drove by, saw my car, saw my little. She said she saw my little head.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And then parked and. What? That is so weird.

[Dax Shepard]

It is very weird.

[Monica Padman]

Y.

[Dax Shepard]

We have listen. Which it's so fine. We have complimentary things about that trigger us into the sim.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So you have thing. You have coincidences.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. That's kind of your. What you don't ever miss. Mine is more what's happening in my lifetime. This feels very suspicious. So my example, my recent SIM moment was talking to my hormone doctor, telling him how I mean this. We're just chatting. It's not like I'm asking him to deal with this. I'm just somehow we're talking about getting older maybe. And I said, the thing that's killing me is my eyesight. I find it so frustrating. And. And I know I'm being a baby, but I cannot stand not being able to read anything that's not 25ft away from me.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And he said, oh, I just got the bionic lenses put on.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And they go, what? What bionic lenses? And he said, I think Johnson and Johnson makes now an artificial lens that lasts forever, that gives you perfect sight.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I went, what are the odds I'm going to be. I'm not going to have to deal with fucked up declining vision. That's where we're at the again. That feels awfully suspicious. Monica. For 300,000 years, humans have had to deal with their eyes going to shit. And I might not have to.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Come on, man. My final piece of the puzzle where I'll go, okay, it's a sim. I'm in. A SIM is if they shut off aging. If they end aging and you don't have to die.

[Monica Padman]

I know, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Until the earth blows up in 5 billion years.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

Or sooner.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But also you would still die by getting. Getting hit by a car and stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

You could still die by getting. Yeah. I think we've. What? We've really beat out all the things that this Would cause is you. I think you'd get abnormally fearful of accidental death.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You'd everyone become agoraphobia.

[Dax Shepard]

You'd walk around with a big bubble wrap all over you.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So that to me that's more what I'm tracking.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I've always said this. Mostly people that believe in the SIM have an abnormally lucky life. And I own that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But that's. If you're looking at the SIM in the way you're looking at the sim. If you look at it in the coincidental way that can also. That doesn't have to be privileged. That's just like what the fuck is going on? That I just said this or that I'm running into Molly. That my. My neighbor of my house owns the apartment next door. Like that's not that stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

I acknowledge that stuff is very simmy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But.

[Dax Shepard]

But, but I do think that if you're. If you've had, you know, two people knock you up that lied and said they had vasectomies and you're in a trailer on welfare and you. If. If. If you do think it's a sim, I feel so bad for that because why would that person deserve that sim? Why would they. They plugged into something to have that experience. So I don't think that person would ever think they're in a sim because why would they. Who would be in a sim? That's fucking insufferable.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's a fee. Okay. It gets so heady because if we're. If my. If I'm in my sim, the people.

[Dax Shepard]

That are suffering are fake.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what we hope.

[Monica Padman]

You know. I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't want anyone to suffer. I don't want any. Anyone that's in a SIM should be having a.

[Monica Padman]

But in this SIM they are.

[Dax Shepard]

This is very confusing.

[Monica Padman]

Well, tbd. I think we might get unplugged soon because it's getting way.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's.

[Monica Padman]

That's so crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

Same bionic eyes. I mean they just happened.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Cynthia.

[Dax Shepard]

Boy did I like her. That self assured was. Is so attractive to me.

[Monica Padman]

Very. Okay. Michaela Cole. We were talking about if she was younger or older. She is the same age. She's 37 as well. Okay. All of us were born in 87. All three of us.

[Dax Shepard]

Special year, as we know.

[Monica Padman]

Special year.

[Dax Shepard]

Seventh grade for me. Birth for you.

[Monica Padman]

A postpartum doula. You wanted to know what that was.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

A trained professional who offers support to new parents during the postpartum period, which is the first six weeks after giving birth, postpartum doulas can help with a variety of tasks, including physical care, helping with breastfeeding, infant feeding, and infant soothing emotional support. Information. Housework, incorporating older children. Oh, helping to incorporate the older child overnight shifts. She mentioned one of her heroes, Cicely Tyson, and yes, it was. She was nominated for best actress in 1973 for Sounder. Cicely Tyson was.

[Dax Shepard]

I wasn't even here yet.

[Monica Padman]

No, you weren't.

[Dax Shepard]

Still a few years away.

[Monica Padman]

A couple years.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you say 72 or 73? Three. Two. Yeah. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Your brother was here. 69. Erykah badu. I just wanted to. Because you talk. You asked if she was late, and I just want to be clear.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This.

[Monica Padman]

That's a thing with her. It's a thing that, like, she is late a lot. And it's cool, though.

[Dax Shepard]

I like it. The Queen's Lake. Like, you wait for the Queen.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I agree. I just. For people who don't know that, it seemed random that you would ask that. Yeah, but it's a thing, like, people ask, like, what? Oh, she's going to be a couple hours late.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

You said that your cousin told you that mathematically, every song has already been created. That's not true.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Monica Padman]

The number of possible sound combinations is essentially infinite. For example, Spotify, the world's largest music platform, has over 100 million songs registered, and 100,000 new songs are added every day.

[Dax Shepard]

Every day?

[Monica Padman]

That's what it says.

[Dax Shepard]

A hundred thousand songs are added every day?

[Monica Padman]

That's what it says.

[Dax Shepard]

Holy smokes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So. No, no, there's no. There's a. Infinite number of combinations, essentially. All right, so you can tell your cousin.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not gonna tell him. It sounds like a fun thing for him to hold on to.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, we talk about how, in English, they have things. We have things here that they don't have because we allow chemicals that they don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, sure, yeah. We play it fast and loose.

[Monica Padman]

We do. But in 2023, about a year ago, California became the first state to ban four food additives linked to disease.

[Dax Shepard]

What are they?

[Monica Padman]

The California Food Safety act prohibits the manufacturing, distribution, and sale of food and beverages that contain promenaded vegetable oil.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I love raminated vegetable oil. Delicious.

[Monica Padman]

No, you don't.

[Dax Shepard]

I got to move.

[Monica Padman]

Potassium bromate.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Propyl paraben. Well, what about propofol and red dye three? Red dye three is the big. The biggie.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Can be found in candy, fruit juices and cookies. And more. Cookie boy.

[Dax Shepard]

Cookie boy.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, so that's good.

[Dax Shepard]

How are you doing on your cookie boyness? When's the last time you had a cookie?

[Monica Padman]

I had a cookie at least two weeks ago because I had one at Sycamore Kitchen. Love Sycamore kitchen. They have a rice krispie treat cookie. It's so insane.

[Dax Shepard]

I just had an impulse I'm going to share with you. You know how I want to go back in my time machine and woo your grandma so bad. Kill to do that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I also want to see you as a baby because now when I just asked you about cookies, of course you looked one years old when you started thinking about your cookies. And so I want to go back and see you as a baby. Baby eating a cookie.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, like my first cookie.

[Dax Shepard]

How hot was your grandma when you're a baby? Can I hit two birds with one stone?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. She was beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

She was gorgeous. How old was she when you were eating cookies? As a 1 year old?

[Monica Padman]

She would have been. Okay. Let's see. So my mom is 26 years my senior. How old was. She was probably 20.

[Dax Shepard]

But isn't that your dad's mom?

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's your mom.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Mom's mom.

[Monica Padman]

You didn't know that?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know, ma'am.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I think of your that. That grandma feels very Indian and I know that your mom's parents lived in Savannah from.

[Monica Padman]

They came from India.

[Dax Shepard]

Came though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know cuz I. Your, your dad of course feels so much more in like he was an adult when he left India.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, he was.

[Dax Shepard]

So when I see a picture like that, I just. I'm in India.

[Monica Padman]

You are in India. She.

[Dax Shepard]

Congratulations. You got that one right.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So she was probably in her late 40s when I was born. So she was probably around your age that I was eating cookies.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. Okay. That. I think this is gonna work.

[Monica Padman]

No, I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, no, my grandpa, he won't know. All right, let me flip it. If you wanted to go back in time and give papa Bob some ass. I love my grandma Yolas to death.

[Monica Padman]

I wouldn't do that to her. You haven't met her, but you love her.

[Dax Shepard]

I love her so much.

[Monica Padman]

So why would I do that?

[Dax Shepard]

Smartest person I ever knew. Because this is. This is a one off time capsule for him. This is like he doesn't even know if it was a dream the next day because you came into town and you were nowhere to be found. She went back to the future.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Ding, ding, ding. Not a sponsor Great movie. It's a one off. There's no threat to the marriage because you've returned to the future. He can't fall in love with you and ruin everything. It's just a one off. You give Papa Bob a little tush. I would want that for him. I would want it for him. And my. My grandma didn't need to know. And I would want Brad Pitt to go back and give Ulis the right of her life.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That one feels less.

[Dax Shepard]

Why do we want that for her and on him?

[Monica Padman]

I don't know what to say.

[Dax Shepard]

We don't have a word for misogynist for men. What is it? We need that word.

[Monica Padman]

There's no such thing.

[Dax Shepard]

There's no such thing. That's why it feels very mean to men. It feels mean to men that she gets Brad Pip, but Papa Bob can't have some.

[Monica Padman]

That's not mean.

[Dax Shepard]

Some tush. She isn't the grossest thing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I hate. You keep saying it. And I think it's just.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a 70s rock song. He's like, I'm just looking for some tush. And Aaron, I sing. It is so grody.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, we're gonna get stereotypical here.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Of course.

[Monica Padman]

Women, I think, for the most part.

[Dax Shepard]

Caveat, Caveat, Caveat. Asterisk.

[Monica Padman]

For the most part, their sex drive. They don't want to have as much sex as men do. As they age, as they get older, as things happen. Like, I mean, for. It's actually for real. Your sex drive does also.

[Dax Shepard]

We have testosterone. That's like the. That's the sex fuel. Any. Anyone will tell you that.

[Monica Padman]

Well, we have testosterone, but not as much.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

So. But with menopause and perimenopause, everything drops off. I know because I'm in perimenopause. And so. So I think a lot of women are having sex with their husbands past the point of them wanting. We know this. It's like the husbands are like, can we have sex once a week? And like, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the predominant pattern.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. Not all.

[Dax Shepard]

But I do want to add. And this I think comes from. There's a ton of great work on this from social scientists like Ira's mom who studied infidelity. Women cheating eat the same amount, but they are driven by novelty. This is, like, agreed upon. Women are driven by novelty and men are driven by sprain, unfortunately. So, you know, put that in your argument. This is kind of known.

[Monica Padman]

It says men are more likely to cheat than women.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. But like 51 to 49.

[Monica Padman]

Or it's. According to this, men are cheating with somebody. This is 20, 22. Yeah, but they might be cheating on someone who's not in a partnership. Yeah. 20% of men and 13% of women admit. Admitt to cheating on their spouse.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Yeah. And then I'm just gotta, you know, I gotta do my thing, which is like admitting culturally, it's so much worse for a woman to admit it. It's so expected of men. Even you.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. That's. This is all tying back into what I'm about to say, which is why it's not the same that if Grandma Yollis gets to have sex with Brad Pitt. It's not the same.

[Dax Shepard]

You feel like it's writing the scales. Yes, I got you.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so I imagine that just this is. Just don't hate me.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

If it's admitted 20% and 13%, I think the real numbers are probably like 35% for men and probably like 29% for women. That's just what I think. From the amount of adults I've known that have been married and the amount of affairs I know about and who they were with, that to me feels way more likely.

[Monica Padman]

I only. I only. I'm really trying to think, because I don't want to speak out of school, but in my experience, I don't know very many, but I personally only know men who have cheated on.

[Dax Shepard]

None of your girlfriends cheated on their boyfriends. Most of the girls I know cheated.

[Monica Padman]

One girl cheated on her boyfriend.

[Dax Shepard]

1.

[Monica Padman]

Well, let me think.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me go through every woman I've ever known.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, well, I guess for me, I'm. I guess I'm thinking more marital.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Once people are married, I, in my experience, only know men who have cheated on their wives.

[Dax Shepard]

I bet it's gone up, too, since women joined the workforce, because forever they were at home and they would interact with other women. Who the hell are they even going to meet? Whereas, like, men were meeting women out in their workplace all the time.

[Monica Padman]

Well, they weren't meeting women out in the workplace. Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

They had secretaries and all. All these roles that were conventionally feminine, you know, females.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, like, my Papa Bob worked at the Wonder Bread bakery. Sure. Everyone in the bakery was men carrying bags of flour, but then up front, there was all these women doing all kinds of stuff.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Any. Okay, so.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Mexican music is.

[Dax Shepard]

Hold on, though.

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

So I accept your full logic, then why doesn't that apply to your sweet grandma? Why isn't she like my grandmas.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, what do you mean if you.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Brad Pitt having a night with Ulysses. Useless eggshells named after Ulysses S. Grant. Why wouldn't your grandma be entitled to a night with me?

[Monica Padman]

Because I don't want that for my grandfather.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, right. But it's okay for my grandfather. Which would make sense.

[Monica Padman]

You know, it makes sense for your grandfather because you said you want it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I want them.

[Monica Padman]

I don't want it for them.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, I'm moving on.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Tejano music is influenced significantly by polka. You were right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's it.

[Dax Shepard]

That was everything.

[Monica Padman]

Well, let me just do one more double check.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep, all done. Final note, not a spoiler. Loved. Wicked. Oh, you gotta go see Wicked.

[Monica Padman]

Got it. You will? Everyone already will. Everyone's already seen it probably by now, but it is so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Popular. All right. I love you. Love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey in a quiet suburb, a community is shattered.

[Cynthia Erivo]

By the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her. And she wasn't the exact only target. Because buried in the depths of the Internet is the Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses and specific instructions for people's murders. This podcast is the true story of how it ended up in a race.

[Monica Padman]

Against time to warn those who lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wandery app.

[Dax Shepard]

Or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Monica Padman]

You can listen to Kill List and more.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Exhibit C True crime shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus check out exhibit C in the Wandery app for all your true crime listening.