Jon Bernthal

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Episode Featuring Jon Bernthal

Release Date: May 5, 2025
Guest: Jon Bernthal

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1. Introduction to Jon Bernthal

The episode opens with Jon Bernthal, a beloved actor known for his intense roles in The Walking Dead and The Punisher. Dax Shepard expresses his growing admiration for Bernthal, highlighting his extensive body of work and upcoming projects. Although the conversation begins with promotional content, it swiftly transitions into the heart of Jon's personal and professional journey.

2. Family Background and Early Life

Jon delves into his family dynamics, emphasizing the strong bonds with his brothers and the influence of his immigrant parents from Syracuse, New York.

Jon Bernthal [03:38]: "My dad is really nice. He's a rougher. He's very direct."

He describes his father as "fiercely loyal" and a steadfast presence, shaping Jon's values and approach to life.

Jon Bernthal [05:05]: "The first thing I say is fiercely, fiercely loyal. He is the guy you want in your corner."

Despite admiration for his brothers' successes—ranging from an orthopedic surgeon to an Emmy-winning producer—Jon admits feeling like he didn't measure up during his upbringing.

Jon Bernthal [05:58]: "I think I was wildly disappointing as a son."

3. Personal Struggles and Sobriety

Jon candidly shares his tumultuous past filled with violence, boxing, and struggles with alcohol, which ultimately led to his sobriety in 2009.

Jon Bernthal [10:16]: "I got in trouble one more time pretty bad in 2009. That's when everything kind shifted for me."

He reflects on the moment that changed his life—a violent altercation that landed him in jail and forced him to confront his path.

Jon Bernthal [45:41]: "It was literally as profound and clear a moment as I've ever had. Wow."

4. Acting Career and Time in Russia

Jon recounts his unconventional path into acting, including his transformative experience at the Moscow Art Theater from 1998 to 2001. Under the tutelage of esteemed Russian actors, he underwent rigorous training that profoundly impacted his craft.

Jon Bernthal [26:12]: "Moscow was wild in the late 90s. It was completely run by the mob. Shootouts in the Duma."

He describes the intense discipline and collaborative environment that honed his skills, making him a dedicated and versatile actor.

Jon Bernthal [28:37]: "The level of discipline was so unlike anything I'd ever seen."

5. Fatherhood and Raising Children

Transitioning to personal life, Jon discusses fatherhood, balancing his career with raising his three children and a niece. He emphasizes the importance of teaching his kids empathy, accountability, and resilience.

Jon Bernthal [54:37]: "How do I raise kind, empathetic, sturdy young men, protectors who take accountability."

He shares insights into creating a supportive and nurturing environment, drawing from his own experiences and the lessons learned from his family.

Jon Bernthal [54:53]: "Things as kids, freaking huge. And then everyone says it and maybe I'll be proven wrong."

6. Reflections on Violence, Shame, and Empathy

Jon offers a deep exploration of violence and its roots in shame, discussing how his own confrontations have shaped his understanding and portrayal of complex characters.

Jon Bernthal [50:04]: "You're crying inside. You go into prison and you hang out among folks who have had real, real time to sit with this."

He highlights the humanity behind violent personas, advocating for empathy and understanding in both his acting and personal interactions.

Jon Bernthal [49:19]: "I have this weird relationship because I found myself watching... I know these people, their brothers, their sisters."

7. Current and Future Projects

Jon talks about his impressive portfolio, including The Accountant 2, The Bear, and collaborations with renowned directors like Christopher Nolan. He expresses enthusiasm for upcoming roles that challenge him and allow for meaningful storytelling.

Jon Bernthal [56:38]: "I do believe it's a bunch of bullshit. But now I'm like, those Quaker values are beautiful."

He praises directors and fellow actors who inspire him, emphasizing the importance of integrity and artistic dedication.

Jon Bernthal [58:32]: "I think he's brilliant in the movie and we really had this awesome thing together."

8. Podcasting and Community Engagement

Jon discusses his involvement in podcasting, focusing on bringing authentic and diverse voices to the forefront. He emphasizes intention and the impact of genuine conversations.

Jon Bernthal [63:19]: "I hope so. As I get older, in both fatherhood and this career, I really keep coming back to intention."

He underscores the value of community and the role of his platform in fostering understanding and support.

Jon Bernthal [65:36]: "And then I was like, wait a second, what would happen if I put those guys together?"

9. Conclusion and Final Reflections

As the episode wraps up, Jon reflects on the interconnectedness of his experiences—acting, fatherhood, and personal growth—and how they inform his approach to life and work. He expresses gratitude for the opportunities and relationships that have shaped him.

Jon Bernthal [68:28]: "I really appreciate you guys having me. Yeah, you guys are awesome."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jon Bernthal [03:38]: "My dad is really nice. He's a rougher. He's very direct."
• Jon Bernthal [05:05]: "The first thing I say is fiercely, fiercely loyal. He is the guy you want in your corner."
• Jon Bernthal [10:16]: "I got in trouble one more time pretty bad in 2009. That's when everything kind shifted for me."
• Jon Bernthal [26:12]: "Moscow was wild in the late 90s. It was completely run by the mob. Shootouts in the Duma."
• Jon Bernthal [28:37]: "The level of discipline was so unlike anything I'd ever seen."
• Jon Bernthal [45:41]: "It was literally as profound and clear a moment as I've ever had. Wow."
• Jon Bernthal [50:04]: "You're crying inside. You go into prison and you hang out among folks who have had real, real time to sit with this."
• Jon Bernthal [54:37]: "How do I raise kind, empathetic, sturdy young men, protectors who take accountability."
• Jon Bernthal [58:32]: "I think he's brilliant in the movie and we really had this awesome thing together."
• Jon Bernthal [63:19]: "I hope so. As I get older, in both fatherhood and this career, I really keep coming back to intention."
• Jon Bernthal [65:36]: "And then I was like, wait a second, what would happen if I put those guys together?"
• Jon Bernthal [68:28]: "I really appreciate you guys having me. Yeah, you guys are awesome."

---

Key Takeaways

• Family Influence: Jon's upbringing with loyal and successful brothers instilled in him values of loyalty and protection, despite his own struggles.
• Acting as Transformation: His time at the Moscow Art Theater was pivotal, providing rigorous training and exposing him to a disciplined, collaborative environment.
• Overcoming Personal Struggles: Jon's journey from a troubled youth to sobriety underscores his resilience and commitment to personal growth.
• Fatherhood: Emphasizes the importance of raising empathetic and accountable children, drawing from his own experiences and challenges.
• Empathy and Understanding: Advocates for understanding the deeper reasons behind violent behavior, promoting empathy in both his roles and personal life.
• Community Engagement: Through podcasting and acting, Jon aims to foster genuine conversations and support systems within his community.
• Future Aspirations: Continues to seek roles that challenge him and allow for meaningful storytelling, maintaining a focus on integrity and artistic dedication.

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This episode offers an intimate glimpse into Jon Bernthal's life, exploring the intersections of family, personal struggles, and professional achievements. His candid discussions provide valuable insights into overcoming adversity, the transformative power of acting, and the profound responsibilities of fatherhood. Jon's reflections on empathy and understanding add depth to his portrayal of complex characters, making this a compelling listen for fans and those interested in the human stories behind the actors we admire.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[Lily Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Today we have one of my favorite actors on. I've been slowly becoming obsessed with him. I got a handful that I follow that I'm really intrigued by and this is one of them. John Bernthal.

[Lily Padman]

I'll be honest. Cause that's what we do here. When I first saw him, I was like, oh, I don't know who that is. And then as soon as I saw his face, I was like, oh, I do. He's in everything.

[Dax Shepard]

He's in absolutely everything. I think so many, most people will probably know the Walking Dead because it.

[Lily Padman]

Was such an enormous hit and he was in King Richard.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, King Richard. The Punisher. He is the Punisher. The accountant with your boyfriend, Daredevil Fury. And he has a new movie in theaters now, the accountant to also with my boyfriend. With your boyfriend. But one thing we didn't get to in the interview, which I really wanted to, we ran out of time. We had him for so long is he has a really cool project in Ojai called Ironbound and it runs from May 9 to May 11 and May 16 to May 18. And he will star alongside actress Marin Ireland and an immigrant blue collar story. And he has put his whole life and passion into this theater project in Ohio. And I hope people will go check it out. May 9th through the 11th and 16th through the 18th.

[Lily Padman]

Once you hear this interview and you hear his acting background, you're gonna want to see that.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, he's a monster.

[Lily Padman]

Oh my God, what a story. His story is felt like a movie.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Jon Bernthal]

He's an object. My wife is disgusted by beards. I just got off of this movie. I just got back from Africa, and now we got kind of word that. Not the next thing I'm doing, but the one after that. They want to keep the beard, and I think the beard's gonna play in it. So, like, this beard ain't going nowhere.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Everyone's gonna get comfortable, make peace with the beard.

[Jon Bernthal]

And that's, like, not happening in your.

[Lily Padman]

Family, in your personal life.

[Jon Bernthal]

She's, like, truly disgusted.

[Dax Shepard]

You had a great mustache in. It was like a comedy. No, it.

[Jon Bernthal]

Was it. King Richard.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, King Richard. Big, bushy.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yes. Long.

[Dax Shepard]

It's impressive.

[Jon Bernthal]

It's disgusting. And then this thing just accentuates it. So, you know, it's funny, man. I come from a family, like, my whole family sort of reminds me. My brothers are really good looking. My nose has been broken a ton of times. I was born with these giant ears. I, like, hate the way that I look.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, me, too. But I look at you, and I'm like, you're gorgeous. What are you worried about?

[Lily Padman]

You guys look.

[Jon Bernthal]

I don't know, man.

[Lily Padman]

Similar.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess we've got, like, the big.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, let me ask you. I made a decision where I'm like, this isn't the face I wanted. So I guess we're going tough. Like, I'm going to embrace being masculine.

[Lily Padman]

Are his brothers pretty?

[Dax Shepard]

Listen, we got to get into his brothers. They're like the Romney family. No, not.

[Lily Padman]

Am I. Rami Malek.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no.

[Jon Bernthal]

Rami Malek. Rami's brother. Like Rami. The Emanuels are the Emanuels. Oh, boy. Yeah, My brothers are. They're the Emanuels of D.C. i'm the middle, but my parents took in a bunch of foster kids, and my parents were sort of the parents in D.C. they all had their own specific and unique and separate and private relationships with friends. So if you were in trouble, you go to my d. It was a.

[Dax Shepard]

Lawyer that became the board of directors of the Humane Society.

[Jon Bernthal]

Humane Society, yes, sir.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm presuming a nice gentleman that would take on that work.

[Jon Bernthal]

I think my dad is really nice. He's a rougher. He's very direct.

[Dax Shepard]

Where's he from?

[Jon Bernthal]

Enormously smart. He's from Syracuse, New York. Son of immigrants. Russian, Polish. But I don't know that people would Lead with nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, great.

[Jon Bernthal]

When you get to know him, 100% fiercely loyal. A great guy to have in your corner.

[Dax Shepard]

What kind of law did he practice?

[Jon Bernthal]

So he started off his three cousins that were his best friends and like his brothers growing up, one of them specifically, but they were sort of involved with pretty major bank robbery in Connecticut. And my dad went into law, I.

[Dax Shepard]

Think to defend his friends.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. But then he got into representing radio stations and TV stations. And I will probably completely mess this up when my other brothers would do this much better. But legend has it that there was a few young businessmen that he became extraordinarily close with. And he was with them from a very, very young age, helping them build their businesses, sort of being their right hand man. When you asked me about my dad, the first thing I say is fiercely, fiercely loyal. He is the guy you want in your corner. He's been in my corner. I've seen him be in other people's corners. No matter what happens, that guy's got your back. Huge lesson for me as a father.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he a tough father?

[Jon Bernthal]

Definitely. And I think I was wildly disappointing as a son. You know, when you talk about my brothers.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, let's hit it. So Nick is an orthopedic surgeon and professor at ucla.

[Lily Padman]

He's done his research.

[Jon Bernthal]

He's the head of oncology and orthopedics at ucla. Went to Princeton. All American football players.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a bummer of an older brother to have.

[Jon Bernthal]

That's my little brother. That's my little brother. Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, listen, the older brother fucking was working in the Clinton administration and comms in the White House. Is that a miss?

[Jon Bernthal]

A little bit.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, let's straighten it out.

[Jon Bernthal]

Hang on. Don't give him that one, bro. It's hard enough. He was, I believe he was the youngest producer for the nightly news ever. He won like five Emmys. By the time he was 25.

[Dax Shepard]

He's got more Emmys than you.

[Jon Bernthal]

He sure does. I mean, the joke in my house, getting back to the ugly thing, is that if I had my brother's looks, I'd have five Oscars right now. You know when you first start out, and I've said it before, you're just facing sort of like this avalanche of rejection. I think the first thing we go to as human beings is, oh, I'm disgusting. It's because my ears are big. And I do remember palpably walking into rooms where the casting director looked up and was sort of like, oh, God. You know. But I think, no, no, no.

[Lily Padman]

For sure.

[Jon Bernthal]

But I do also think it's because, look, in the beginning I'm trying to be on soap operas. I would be in the waiting rooms and see these beautiful men just be like, this ain't gonna happen for you, bro. But there was never a part of me like, oh, you just wait. When I get my hands, it was always, I suck. This isn't going to work for me. It's, you're gross. But what a blessing in the long run, because I do think that there is a thing for folks that I've seen, and I don't know that it necessarily means because of their looks, but I have sort of come up with people where I thought, wow, they've really got this whole thing kind of licked, and they play beautiful young men. But then when it comes time to play a father or to play a soldier or to play a cop or to play somebody who's really worked with their hands, honestly, whether they've done that or not, I think it really can become a hindrance.

[Lily Padman]

They don't look like a real person.

[Jon Bernthal]

I think so, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, a lot of dudes at the gas station that look like some of the folks.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, that's probably right.

[Dax Shepard]

And then when they're playing the guy at the gas station, why isn't that guy in fucking Hollywood? Because he's gorgeous. Why is he wasting his time in Pennsylvania at this gas station? So you had a brother ahead of you who went through school, and clearly he must have been brilliant. This school you went to, friendly something.

[Jon Bernthal]

Well, friends, it's really coming full circle right now because I'm trying to decide what we're doing with our kids next year. And, you know, I don't know if.

[Dax Shepard]

We have 10 and 12.

[Jon Bernthal]

Do you have babies?

[Lily Padman]

All that school stuff is scary.

[Jon Bernthal]

The whole thing for me, being a D love, things that you're never going to lick, that you're going to fail at constantly, that you just want so bad that you can pour every bit of your heart into and that you just keep running into walls. And, my God, do you just fail over and over again As a parent, you admit it and you show up. And so trying to figure it out now, I don't know if you could say the same thing, but I'm tremendously grateful for how I grew up, where I grew up, even with all of the walls that I ran into. And there is a huge pressure on me for my kids to learn what I've learned. Unfortunately, I don't think they're going to be able to learn it the way that I.

[Lily Padman]

It.

[Dax Shepard]

No, nor should they.

[Jon Bernthal]

Nor should they. But I think it really could have gone and did go bad a lot of different times. And, you know, my brother was definitely not a brilliant student. My brother. No, not at all. He really got bullied a lot. I think D.C. at that time, no matter where you were in that city, was a rough city and it was rough on him. And I think a lot of the decisions that I made, how I was going to conduct my life and how I was going to carry myself was really in reaction to that. In a very similar way, I think my little brother made those same decisions of what not to do based on what I was doing.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, it was a pendulum swinging in your family.

[Jon Bernthal]

I think so. But I think the thing that was steady all the way through with my folks because, yes, both of my brothers are really wildly successful guys. And I think more than just that, they've had unbelievably satisfying careers. They're deeply kind and good people who put helping people and being there for other people before anything else. They're family first people. They have wonderful friendships, they have wonderful marriages, they have wonderful children that they hate them.

[Dax Shepard]

I hate both these guys. No rehabs or anything.

[Jon Bernthal]

I mean, look, man, we have that.

[Dax Shepard]

Believe you me, we have.

[Jon Bernthal]

Have anything that you could possibly have within a family, but with our immediate family. I was doing an interview the other day for this movie I have coming out, and they asked Ben Affleck and me, like, what is your superpower? I mean, it was just so clear. I really do think it's them. It's my family. There's never been resentment among each other. There's not been jealousy. There's been total support. I did get in trouble a lot when I was young.

[Dax Shepard]

What brand of trouble did you find yourself in?

[Jon Bernthal]

Got locked up a bunch of times. And it was mostly. I had problems with violence.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Jon Bernthal]

Got into martial arts and boxing when I was young and. And probably learned from some of the wrong people. And a lot of questions with my own manhood and fear. And I feel like so much of that stuff comes from shame anyway. And again, when I talk about teaching my kids, I really believe every person has to have their own fluency and relationship with violence. I find specifically as a man, I think you have to be able to have a healthy relationship with it to sort of understand it, because I think when it's super far away from you and you've never delved in those waters, it can be enormously toxic. And so to try to teach my kids that my boys and my girls, but teach that to them in a place shrouded in honor and respect and kindness and justice, and under the umbrella of safety, has been a real focus of mine. And, man, I wish I had that. I mean, it's just super basic. It kind of goes for everything with these kids and with us. And I try to remind myself all the time, try to not let your feelings be the boss of you. Try to not do anything out of anger, out of resentment, out of fear. Try to be your own master in that way. You're never going to have that licked. You're never going to fully that down, but you can aim towards it. You know, you can try going to this unbelievably prestigious and lauded school that I went to. I still, you know, by the time I was 11, I was taking the subway in the bus squad. I gotten jumped, I gotten mugged. That's not going to happen to my kids in Ohio. That is not going to happen.

[Dax Shepard]

They have better odds of coming face to face with a cougar, for sure.

[Jon Bernthal]

For sure. In both this business and in life, I've come across so many people who clearly walk down the street and walk into a room and have no situational awareness and didn't grow up the way that you grew up, up and aren't thinking about those things. And it's not that, oh, gosh, they're a sitting duck, or, oh, they're vulnerable or, oh, this is going to be bad for them. It's just that, who knows? And these things could become enormously valuable at a certain time. And when it does, what you don't want to do is sit in the corner and say, oh, my gosh, make it end. I think you want to be able to be in a situation where you can protect your family, protect your friends, stand up to somebody who's getting it bad, no matter what that is, but to never fall to the base inclination and desires that push you to say, oh, I feel bad about myself. I'm gonna go bully that guy. I know what I can do. Right now, I feel a little bit ashamed. I'm gonna be the loudest talker in the room. Rather, hey, you've been there, you've been on the mat, you've been in the ring, all that stuff, you recognize it for what it is. It's noise. And to give you a sense of confidence that's curated by really, really spiritually strong people. And what a gift I think you can give. And for me, because I had my.

[Dax Shepard]

Boys first, so you have two boys and a girl.

[Jon Bernthal]

I have two boys and a girl. And then we just took in my niece who's three, so she's been with us for almost a year now.

[Dax Shepard]

So you got four little kids.

[Jon Bernthal]

She's little.

[Dax Shepard]

How old's your oldest son?

[Jon Bernthal]

Thirteen.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's my daughter's 12th birthday today.

[Jon Bernthal]

Oh, happy birthday.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we're going to Disneyland today. Let's go, let's go.

[Jon Bernthal]

You'll go tonight and spend the day tomorrow.

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly.

[Lily Padman]

It's probably so good for a 13 year old boy to have a little 3 year old girl around.

[Jon Bernthal]

My niece's dad, he's in prison in Florida, he's not going to get out. And my wife's sister, who's wonderful is six months sober now, but really been fighting her her whole life.

[Dax Shepard]

Good for her.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, she's really, really fighting the fight. This little girl, she's seen a lot, she through a lot and was going into the foster system and we were able to get down there and get her to us.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good.

[Jon Bernthal]

And the gift has been so profound for my kids.

[Dax Shepard]

One of the things I'm sure you wrestle with like I do, which is like what reality do they know they've had a swimming pool their whole life. That's bizarre to me. But I think having a little girl around who's really in it is a good perspective giver for your kids who presuming your house is pretty nice in Ojai.

[Jon Bernthal]

For sure, for sure, for sure. But also it's funny when I talk about that people are always sort of coming to me or coming to my wife because it's really my wife, but saying, wow, that's so great. And I just totally see it as it's a gift to us, it's a gift to our kids.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I believe that both are true.

[Jon Bernthal]

Both are true, both can be true.

[Dax Shepard]

This school though looks so idyllic. Just from the photo I saw. It's like a Henry Ford museum in Detroit. It's a Quaker school.

[Jon Bernthal]

There are Quaker values that are enormously beautiful. There are no real Quakers that go to that school. The way that sort of DC was in the 80s and 90s. DC is a city that's not part of a state and the public schools were in pretty rough shape here because it's really a lesson and in hypocrisy, that city, because you have this sterling city on the hill in the middle of the city which is all these monuments and all these government buildings, but that's protected by the park police and the Secret Service. There's no litter. Nobody from D.C. lives there. And then you go like two blocks in any direction, and there's a different kind of music, a different kind of vernacular, a different kind of folks. It's definitely not what it used to be, but it is that. And you see that growing up, no matter where you go, it's a loss of innocence. You sort of start to figure things out for us. I think specifically that school just had a history. I was really brought up with the idea of Quakerism, that there is that of God in everyone, the way that Quakers pray. I don't know if you guys have ever attended a Quaker meeting, but I.

[Dax Shepard]

Have a friend who's an atheist who attends a Quaker church.

[Jon Bernthal]

I mean, the way that Quaker meeting works is everybody sits around in silence. So at that school, for instance, once a week, everybody, every coach, every security guard, every buildings and grounds member, every teacher, every student sits in silence. And there's no leaders, no followers, there's no priests, there's no rabbis. And if that of God moves you anyone, you get up and you address the congregation and you speak from the God that's within you. So it's really steeped in conflict resolution and equality and diversity. How cool, right?

[Lily Padman]

Very cool.

[Jon Bernthal]

The school that I sort of came up with was vast, vast majority scholarship students. It really put a real onus on all kinds of diversity. There was kids that weren't allowed to go to the public schools that were allowed to come to our school. And what I saw was this really sort of utopian, beautiful thing where kids that were, in some cases, in. Involved in things out of school, that were genuinely dangerous kids, were lost to gun violence, were on school grounds, really a part of this community where they felt respected and safe. And even when things would flare up, there was a way of dealing with them where there was no principal saying, you're suspended, you're kicked out. It was a group of your peers. And we would try to get to the bottom, okay, well, why are you doing what you're doing? And let's see if we can bring you guys together. And maybe you need to go spend a night in his neighborhood, and maybe you need to go to her house and see what that's. For me, it really worked. And, man, do I believe it. If you had asked me, then I would. It's a bunch of bullshit. But now I'm like, those Quaker values are beautiful. I love the school, and I'm so grateful to the school and the people who are my best friends, who I played on My undefeated high school football team with are still my best friends.

[Dax Shepard]

They play football. That's a little bit of a. Yeah, I guess.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Jon Bernthal]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

Conflict resolution. God. And then you have football team. I like it.

[Jon Bernthal]

We were a really sort of violent group of guys. And there is really that element there, this dichotomy. But supported anyway. Truthfully, what I'm most grateful is it really was a place and a city that was diverse. People throw that word around. But the kind of folks that I got to grow up with were from all walks of life and in that city. And at that time, I'm just so grateful for it. And I think where DC Is is such an interesting thing because you cross one river in your Virginia and then you go out this way. You're in Maryland and there's the Eastern Shore. It's such a wildly different culture.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you go to Skidmore, but you're there for how long?

[Jon Bernthal]

I had gotten in trouble in high school, so I had this sort of thing lo looming over me while I was in college.

[Dax Shepard]

Trial coming your way?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

I went to Skidmore to play baseball. And it was at Skidmore where I started acting.

[Dax Shepard]

You go to Moscow on the advice of one of your acting teachers?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. This woman, Alma Becker. I have her name tattooed right here. She was my first acting teacher. I've told this story before.

[Dax Shepard]

I've never heard it.

[Jon Bernthal]

Okay, sorry. I know it's not the worst though, man. Anyway, I box my whole life and so my head's a little. And my biggest fear is that I'm telling the same story over and over again. And someone's sitting there being like this story again. In every boxing gym, there's somebody who does that. And I'm so upset.

[Dax Shepard]

A cte.

[Lily Padman]

I know. Now I'm scared for you because you just said that.

[Dax Shepard]

Cuz we just had cte.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, I'm scared for me about that too, to be honest with you.

[Lily Padman]

You're going to be just fine.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. Anyways, I took this class to fulfill a requirement. I was a total. I was there just to play baseball.

[Dax Shepard]

What position did you play?

[Jon Bernthal]

I play catcher.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, how are your knees?

[Jon Bernthal]

I'm okay now. I mean, but from boxing and catching and I play a lot of outdoor basketball. They were bad. I've had a bunch of surgeries. But hey, my little brother, you know.

[Dax Shepard]

When I've sat in that position, like, how do those catchers sit like this for two hours?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, it was bad for a while, but I played all through high school and College. I played some baseball.

[Dax Shepard]

We got to get to that.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

Oh, boy. But there was an Intro to theater class that all the athletes took. And you would sit in the auditorium, and I heard you could just sort of take acid and sit in the back and watch movies. I was like, that is, for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that sounds great.

[Jon Bernthal]

I ended up. Because I'm a total shitbag in the Intro to Acting class, which was a serious acting student class, and I'd never seen anything like this before. And the first assignment was to bring in something that you really cared about to share it with the class. Everybody was sitting on the floor, which I thought was the weirdest fucking thing in the world. Like, why are we sitting on the floor? And they were going around person by person, theater people sharing. And they were taking it so seriously, really emoting. And it just dawned on me. I totally didn't bring anything because you.

[Dax Shepard]

Didn'T love anything or.

[Jon Bernthal]

Cause you just bring in an assignment anyhow. It was slowly but surely working its way to me. And the only thing I thought to do was to get my catcher's glove, because I was going to fall practice right afterwards. And I kind of launched into this story about how my mother had given me this glove on her deathbed. And my mom's, like, alive, and.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, I just thought that was sort of acting. And I just told this story, and I'm like, you know. And then me and my brother, you know, we just have a catch and talk about my.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's kind of like an ABC after school special almost for real.

[Jon Bernthal]

And, like, everyone's crying their eyes out. I'm, like, crying my eyes out. And I checked in with myself. I really went to this crazy place.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

And I'm like, whoa, guys, I'm just doing the acting here. Like, chill out. And this woman, Alma, who's this magical woman from the San Francisco theater in the 60s and the 70s, was in original Sam Shepard shows. It's just great. Fierce woman made everybody leave. And she just ripped me the fuck apart. And then she said, but you're auditioning for the play. Learn this monologue. Come back tonight and audition. I did, and I have no idea why I did. But I remember walking back to the house with the baseball players where I lived, and I remember reading the words and something was happening to me. And I'm like, what the fuck is this? The same thing that was happening in that room. And I got in the play.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I make a guess or a suggestion?

[Jon Bernthal]

Sure, man.

[Dax Shepard]

When one embarks on Boxing and fighting and defending. Weirdly, I don't want to get hurt. And I want everyone to know, pick someone else. There's an easier thing for you. Because I'm protecting this sweet boy that's really in me.

[Jon Bernthal]

That's it.

[Dax Shepard]

You get in there and you're like, wait, you can be a sweet boy and people will be happy about that. And no one here is going to fucking call me gay because I just said I like my brother and miss my mom. All these layers of. Wait. A world like this exists.

[Jon Bernthal]

I can definitely identify with that. What I'll tell you, for me, more specifically was the guy who was getting in fights on the street. That guy was fake. That guy was scared. But what I found out, and still to this day, man, if I can tap in to, like, real, genuine chaos and danger. I love my friends so much. And I sort of went from the guy in the back talking the smack, like, let's all go do this to, you know, the shame. I gotta be the guy in the front. Okay. Now I gotta be the guy to do it one on one. Okay. Now I gotta be the one to, like, prove to myself that I can do it. This stupid, toxic, awful game. But what I found was that intoxicating energy. If I could tap into that this way, I could do it in such a positive way that brought me closer to people.

[Dax Shepard]

Both pursuits are full of fear, for sure.

[Jon Bernthal]

And I think in both cases, what I've really responded to is that it's a group effort and it's a collaborative effort. And you get so close with. I know it probably sounds cheese dick and hokey, but like the soldiers that you're with next to you. The reason why I was getting in street fights, because I didn't know how to tell my friends how much I loved.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jon Bernthal]

That was all it was. I love those guys. I didn't know how to do it any other way. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I wanted them to feel so safe and protected that they would love me so much, for sure. And I thought my wife would like that. Yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

Which is like.

[Dax Shepard]

He's like, no, yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

Like, bro. And my wife comes from a genuinely tough family.

[Dax Shepard]

Her uncle is a wwe.

[Jon Bernthal]

He won the gold medal for American wrestling. Yeah. Kurt won the gold medal in 96.

[Dax Shepard]

And Eric, they were teammates.

[Jon Bernthal]

Best of friends. Mark trained him.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. He was at Foxcatcher.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he on Fox Catcher?

[Jon Bernthal]

And he left to go train with my wife.

[Dax Shepard]

You pumped him for those stories?

[Jon Bernthal]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. But, I mean, my wife's dad's got even better stories.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Wow. Wow. Okay.

[Jon Bernthal]

They're serious, but they're the real serious family.

[Dax Shepard]

So. Yeah. I loved my friends so much. I wanted them to love me so much, and I would jump on fire for them to show that. And I found out you can do it in acting and comedy.

[Lily Padman]

You can also just say it. But sometimes you can't. Sometimes you can.

[Dax Shepard]

I know if your group of friends come from a group of adults who say I love you, and then act in an opposite fashion. If that's like, your core group, Everyone there is divorced kids. No. Saying it really doesn't mean anything.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. And the truth is, I don't want to sell these guys short because they're not mongoloids. They're not simple. They're beautiful people with successful families and beautiful careers.

[Dax Shepard]

The sad thing is you get older as you go. Oh. Everyone on the other side was also in the same situation.

[Jon Bernthal]

That was one of the biggest things for me. I remember there was this one time in D.C. when we were at a bar and there was some little stupid altercation. I think my little brother had gotten into it with some guy. I was fiercely protective because, you know, then you go to therapy and you start working on your anger, and so crazy that we're even talking about this. But, you know, I really like keeping an anger journal and really whittling it down and doing the work. Like, what are the things? And one of the things for me are my brothers. I just knew from a young age my job was to protect my brother. So going into certain situations, playing pickup basketball with them on the street, going out drinking with it. Like, if my brothers are around, I am that guy. And I still to this day, you're.

[Dax Shepard]

Their security a little bit.

[Jon Bernthal]

And I just do remember my brother got his into it. This guy was giving him a hard time, and this other guy stepped in, and I just got up, and I remember I hit this guy and I knocked his teeth out. I had this theory that you only got hurt in fights when it's your fault somehow. That was my scientific complete. But, you know, I remember I got this huge infection on my hand, and it was Christmas Eve, and I just woke up that next morning in this state of, like, absolute horror that this guy has to wake up on Christmas morning without his teeth.

[Dax Shepard]

All I want for Christmas is my tube, bro. You got to at least sing that, actually.

[Jon Bernthal]

How funny is that?

[Dax Shepard]

I never even thought literally front teeth.

[Jon Bernthal]

But I just remember being in D.C. and like, crying my eyes out thinking about this guy. And that was at least the beginning of. Gotta stop this.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

I always talk about this with my kids. Like, the steps of behavior, there's unconscious incompetence where you're just doing dumb and you have no idea you're doing it. And then that super incredible and vital point where you're like, oh, conscious incompetence. I am doing something wrong. Why am I doing this? And then that next step of conscious competence where you're like, if I tell myself every day, here comes. Don't do that. I can plan for it. I can do a million different things to keep myself from doing that. And then maybe you can get to that spot of unconscious confidence where you don't even have to think about it. You just do that. And for the most part, because I don't ever believe you're good. I don't believe that this is gone from you or me or whatever. But I just do want to say, I think with my brothers and my friends, the one thing that was always present is we only wanted each other to be okay and to be safe and to grow out of our bullshit. And whether we were able to say that to each other at the time or no. But that was clear. Is clear, and I'm so grateful for that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Russia.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yes, sir.

[Dax Shepard]

Somehow this teacher says, you know what you might want to think about doing is going and studying in Moscow.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, I didn't know, man. I knew that this is what I wanted to do once I started acting. It was baseball and acting.

[Dax Shepard]

Is this like, 96?

[Jon Bernthal]

I went to Russia in 98, and then I was there from 98 to 2001.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Three years.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, two years. I first went for a year, and that was to be in the Russian school. And she had hooked it up, got me an audition.

[Dax Shepard]

And can I ask what the value of that is? That school where, like, Stanislaus School?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, the Moscow Art Theater. Yeah. I was just dealing with this case. I was in real trouble and having to deal with parole boards and not being able to continue school. And I went to her and I just said, look, how do you do this? I thought it was like being a plumber. Like, what are the steps that I need to do? This is what I want to do. I wanted to be a regional theater actor, and that was it. And she said, look, there's no rhyme or reason to this thing. There's no one way. But she said, you know, if I were you, I would audition for the Moscow Art Theater. Americans haven't done this before. And I think what she knew one, she Needed to get me out of my environment. And I think, two, there was a level of training over there and an environment over there that was so beyond humbling. Moscow was wild in the late 90s. It was completely run by the mob. Shootouts in the Duma. I had guns pulled on me multiple times within my first few days there.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Jon Bernthal]

You know, it was a really lawless place. And for a guy who's like, I'm a tough D.C. guy, like barrel, like, you are not tough like you are a little.

[Dax Shepard]

These ate their shoelaces stalling crap.

[Jon Bernthal]

The old lady on the street, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Like.

[Jon Bernthal]

Like the babushka. Will you up? Yeah, yeah, straight up. And also, I hadn't done international travel to go to a place to be a Russian actor, to be a Russian singer. That meant every bit as much as to be an American, you know, to be an artist. There was, for lack of a better word, at this time of my life, it was this enormously masculine thing to do. You learn how to do ballet. You lear to do acrobatics, you learn how to fight. Super rigorous and unbelievably cutthroat. If you get into these schools, it's so hard to get in. You know, out of 10,000 kids, they'll take 100, and then every semester, they'll cut you in half. That last year, those 10 kids, you're doing 10 plays in repertory. And when you show up to the theater, you're told which of those 10 plays you're doing and which role you're playing, both male and female. The level of discipline was so unlike anything I'd ever seen.

[Dax Shepard]

What's going on with the language? Is it in?

[Jon Bernthal]

So when I first got there, no, no, definitely not, man. Nobody was speaking eng.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

How on earth are you dealing with that?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, it was hard. I lived in a place called Parkultori, which is a Gorky park and not a great area in Moscow. Then the deal is, if you got in the school, they'd provide a translator. So I had this guy who was with me all the time. But the cool thing was, is, honestly, in your first 12, 13 months there, it's training your attention and your concentration. A common exercise would be if there was 12 of us. It's like ensemble building at the same time with no leaders or followers. We'd all stand up at the same time, and then at the same time, we'd all pick up our chairs at the same time. We'd all start moving around the room, and you would have a newspaper article and you would have to read a paragraph from that newspaper article while we're walking around the room. It's starting to get confusing. Right. While we start walking around the room, I'm saying, dax, what color is your underwear today?

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Jon Bernthal]

And you would say, red. Right. Or whatever. Or, I'm not wearing green and blue. And then you would say, john, what'd you have for breakfast? Strawberries and eggs. And we go around the room. The teacher, meanwhile, is snapping, coughing and clapping. Then at one point, the teacher, teacher says, stop. Everybody stops. And at the same time, everybody makes a semicircle with their chairs. At the same time, everybody puts their chairs down. Same time, everybody goes and sits down. And you had to know, what did Dax ask John? What was the answers? How many claps, how many cops, how many snaps, what you're reading your thing, and then you need to know every answer and you need to be able to recite.

[Dax Shepard]

That sounds perfect for you.

[Jon Bernthal]

It was perfect for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Especially coming from the sports background.

[Jon Bernthal]

It was more rigorous than boxing. It was more rigorous than football. It was more rigorous than anything thing I had ever done. And I think in Russia, to be an acting teacher is the highest acclaim that you can get. So my teachers were the biggest stars. And not just that they were famous, but they were the most respected. Oleg Tabakov is like the Robert De Niro of Russia. He's a teacher. So if you're anywhere in Moscow and a Moscow art theater teacher comes into the place that you're in, you have to stand up and you can't sit down until they sit down. Those guys all lived through communist times. So, you know, public gatherings were outlawed. So if you were to do theater, it was always state sponsored theater.

[Dax Shepard]

Probably propaganda to some. Some level.

[Jon Bernthal]

Propaganda to some level. But then if they said, okay, you guys are doing a play and this is a state sponsored play, but because my arbitrary look on it, if I'm a state person, you know, I think that there's actually an anti state message. Yeah, they'll come to your house and kill you. Meyerhold was one of the biggest Russian directors in the Moscow Art Theater. Assassinated in his apartment.

[Dax Shepard]

Teachers because he got Siberia.

[Jon Bernthal]

Well, did they or did they? Not according to them. And like, who knows? You know, it's corrupt as hell. This is where they came up in. And my three main acting teachers, these three men, their best friends, I love these guys. And they did this play called Chinzano about these three best friends who. One of their mothers died, and they sit in an apartment and drink a Bottle of Chinzano and talk about it. They did it all through the 80s, performing in Subway tunnels and abandoned buildings, putting signs up through the city. If anyone had been caught dead, I don't know if they'd be dead, but they'd definitely go to prison, they'd definitely be in trouble. And they performed it anyway. So there was just this level of vitality to it that I think I really responded to. How long no Internet. I didn't have an email account, I didn't have a cell phone, so there's no calls home.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you a romantic though? Are you telling the story of your life? And you're like, look at me, man, I'm in fucking. A little bit, yeah. That would be what would sustain me.

[Jon Bernthal]

Things were not looking good for me. Like I do feel every day I am in church, man, I am walking the walk. It's just for me, my mind was blown every single day, spiritually, physically and just being in such a different environment and I don't know if that's even possible now. I had one phone call on Christmas. I called my mom and my dad. I called my best Greg Zumas and I remember how awkward it was and I didn't know how to talk to them. My dad would like, do you know how much this is costing? Are you sure? What are we talking about, bro?

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Addie.

[Lily Padman]

Addie, that's that little pink pill, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it sure is. Addie is the number one doctor prescribed FDA approved treatment to get this. Increase women's sex drive in certain premenopausal women who are bothered by low libido.

[Lily Padman]

This is very important, which brings up.

[Dax Shepard]

A really interesting conversation. What do women want out of sex? I mean, it's different for men, right?

[Lily Padman]

Well, I'm not a man, so I guess I can't really speak to that. But for women, it's definitely about pleasure and orgasms, of course, but it's really more about the intimacy, like being really.

[Dax Shepard]

Excited about the person.

[Lily Padman]

Yes, totally. Yes. Be so into someone that you're like, let's do this. I want this. That, that's a good feeling.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, apparently there's a lot of women out there who struggle with low libido, but there's not enough honest conversation about it.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And women should know that there are options out there and we shouldn't be embarrassed to talk about it and get help.

[Dax Shepard]

No way. It's your life. You deserve this.

[Lily Padman]

If you want to learn more and get back to feeling like yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Lily Padman]

It's time to do a little refresh. This is such a good place because it's a really good price, but it's really good quality.

[Dax Shepard]

Super high quality. Quince has all the things you actually want to wear, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts. Ding, ding, ding. And comfort pants that work for everything from backyard hangs to nice dinners. Quince keeps prices down by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, giving you luxury pieces without out the crazy markups. In this economy, making the most of your dollars is a priority. Quince gets that. Elevate your closet with quince. Go to quince.comdax for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comdax to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comdax we are supported by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like, you know, to double check the HAMP first before turning your white laundry into a lovely shade of pink. Like, you know, to check that your headphones are plugged in first before blessing your guilty pleasure playlist in the quiet section of the library. Like, you know to check that you're texting the right person first before sending that spicy gossip about your cousin. Checking first is smart, so check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate Savings. Vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. You also end up playing professional baseball while you're there. How does that happen?

[Jon Bernthal]

While I was there to make a little bit of money, Moscow had just gotten a team. It was interesting there because all these new sort of American things were popping out. You really had very different rushes and very different Moscow. The Moscow that all the kids that I went to school with, you know, they were coming in their whole families from the Ural Mountains, eating off a hot plate, really destitute. At night it was drinking vodka, singing, rapping, playing theater games. No One had any money. So it was like you scrounged together what you had. That was the Russia that I knew. But there was this other thing with the mafia and it was this fascination with American culture and these sort of American restaurants and McDonald's. And one of the things was baseball. So there was this new thing in Russia where these mafia guys would go with their model girlfriends and go watch baseball games.

[Dax Shepard]

I went in 2000 to Russia.

[Jon Bernthal]

I was there then.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I went to St. Petersburg and it was like, oh, communism's dead. But there's no stores, there's no bars, there's no restaurants. The downtown is just like, dudes are drunk at 9 in the morning. There's really nothing to do.

[Jon Bernthal]

Real, real, real drinking. Not surprising to see dead guys on the subway to school. There are certain cultural rules on the street. Like if somebody falls down, cracks their head open, you do not touch that person. You don't help them, you don't call anybody.

[Lily Padman]

What's behind that?

[Dax Shepard]

I think they've seen so much fudgeing, suffering is my guess, through those many years. I mean, fuck, from Stalin on, so much suffering, food scarcity they've just seen.

[Lily Padman]

It's just like, take care of yourself and get through it.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, I could tell you all day, like really brutal, dark stories that happen there. But for every single one of those, I've got one that is so profoundly beautiful. Yeah, of course both of those things exist at the same time there.

[Lily Padman]

Sounds like they're carrying so much duality there. Like even the fact that there's this mafia thing and it's all regimented. But then an art professor comes in and everyone has to stand up. Like that's already blowing my mind, that they revere it.

[Jon Bernthal]

And on every corner there's a statue of a playwright or a poet or an actor. To find somebody, like a street, street guy, he'll know what's playing at the Bolshoi. He'll be able to name all the members of the Moscow Art Theater. And when you go, there's no idea of this sort of like subscription based gentry, exclusive theater. The theater is religion. Every theater is packed every night. People are sitting in the rows. It's cheap. You take your family to the theater, you go and you see theater. It's like something that you do and not in any kind of like, do you know who's going to be in this? Like. And also just the way that these plays are even put on. There's no such thing as, okay, we're going to rehearse and Then we've rented this theater. So we're going to go up in June. You rehearse a play until the director says it's ready. Could be three years. Once you have a role, like if you're playing Hamlet and you're playing Desdemona, those are your roles. And you might get a call next week. Every night there's a bill of what shows. It's not like this show is playing here. You're going to see Dax and Hamlet tonight, and then tomorrow they're doing Othello and you're playing Desdemona. So you're. You have your parts. There's plays that have been running there for 35 years. And they're just, oh, they're going to do it at the Tagonka tonight. And you got to see this production.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like a rock band.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, it's really cool.

[Dax Shepard]

What were you making playing baseball? What could someone make?

[Jon Bernthal]

It was in rubles, but I think at the time it was close to probably 25 bucks a game.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Yeah, but that went a long way.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, congratulations.

[Jon Bernthal]

For me, at that time, 25 rubles, which was approximately five bucks, if I'm doing this right. Not in the western places, but the three of us could go out to a Georgian restaurant, eat hachapuri, split a bottle of vodka, get a couple chickens, maybe a thing of beans, the best bread you've ever had. And we'd sit there and get completely hammered and eat. Do you guys know what hachapuri is?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Jon Bernthal]

Georgian food. It centers around this thing called hachapuri, which is basically like this bread with these three kinds of Georgian cheeses sort of like fried into it with an egg fried over the top. Like, then you can put these Russian beans on. I mean, it's bonkers. Good for five bucks. Three, four people eat and drink as much as you want. So for 25 bucks.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Not bad, you know.

[Jon Bernthal]

Cause I was 20 years old, my buddies were all Russian teenagers and people in their young twenties. And so to be like the big spender, like, come on, I got you. It was so crazy to be able to do that.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So you get back from Russia, you move to New York, you do 30 odd plays, you do some, like, guest stars on all the shows. Everyone in New York does guest roles on. You get Tina and Tony's Wedding. Wedding.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And that brings you to LA in 2004.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yes, sir.

[Dax Shepard]

So you're just scrabbling for those however many years that would have been just kind of cobbling together.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. I mean, it was a lot of years when I was in Russia. Harvard has a graduate school.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sorry, that's really relevant.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, no, I don't know if it's relevant, but they would bring their MFA students there. They saw me in a show, they're like, what the hell are you doing here? They offered me a spot. I was like, harvard?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, yeah, look at that.

[Dax Shepard]

To go to graduate school.

[Jon Bernthal]

To go to graduate school. Even though I never went to college.

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't even know one could do that.

[Jon Bernthal]

Me neither. But then you go back to Russia, but this time as a Harvard student, which is a totally different thing. And that was an extraordinary thing too. But they do these showcases and stuff, and I got an agent.

[Dax Shepard]

So you have a master's from Harvard?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

So cool.

[Dax Shepard]

That's hilarious. Look at the arc given. Basically, you fled the country.

[Jon Bernthal]

If I could bring in, like, a group of people that could tell you stories. Stories of how big of a. Like a colossal.

[Lily Padman]

Your story is a movie.

[Jon Bernthal]

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You're Will Hunting. I know.

[Jon Bernthal]

My best friends were from South Boston. My friend John Davis, Spark, he just passed the serio deed greatest guy, played baseball with him. But these, like, group from south. He took me to Harvard to audition. They're all waiting outside. They're like ripping lines in the car. The craziest group of. Yeah. You know, he's like, wait. He's like, did you get in? I go there and I do this audition. They told me in the room they saw me in Russia. They're like, come back.

[Dax Shepard]

This really is Goodwill, honey.

[Jon Bernthal]

He's like a janitor.

[Lily Padman]

My favorite movie of all time.

[Jon Bernthal]

Nuts. I remember exactly where. I was calling my mom on Sparky's phone. She couldn't believe it. But I met my. I met my wife, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you met her at Harvard?

[Jon Bernthal]

No. She's a. Was an ICU trauma nurse in dc. I met her the day I got home from Russia.

[Dax Shepard]

What a story.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, man, this is so wild.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you come to LA, 2004, you get yourself on a show. You're a regular friend for a season. It gets canceled. That's 2005. You get another show for a year. You're in this nebulous. I'm imagining you're like, is it starting or not starting? Is it starting? Were you feeling that feeling here in LA for a few years?

[Jon Bernthal]

In the beginning, there was definitely the whole ugly thing that I was telling you about, where I was like, okay, this is not Gonna happen.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, the first one was a sitcom, right?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. With like, Jesse Tyler Ferguson and Lizzy Kaplan. And it was the people that had done Friends and it was supposed to be the one Jimmy Burrows took us on the private jet.

[Lily Padman]

Wasn't it called, like the Class?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, yeah. And I remember it was Chris Klein and James Vanderbeek, I think, going into rooms to test with those guys. It was like, this is a total joke. Look at you, you charlatan. You ugly little joke. In the beginning, it was really hard. It was just. No, no, no, no, no. For years, nothing couldn't make money. I was like selling weed. I was bouncing, I was doing whatever the I could, but I'd come home feeling sorry for myself. And my wife was working at these major trauma centers around the country, being like, pull it. Never saying it right, but she's like.

[Lily Padman]

Do you know what I saw today?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, dog. And she would never could just do it by like, come here, I got you. And I'm like, I'm crying on her chest. What did you do today? You know, like, you saw.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So several gallons of blood dump, bro.

[Jon Bernthal]

Right. And like, literally, like an angel. I'm upset about this bullshit.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

But I will say, man, through that time, it was really, genuinely total gratitude. It was an influx of positivity. It was like, you're getting really close and there was no end game.

[Dax Shepard]

So you haven't been arrested in a while.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. I mean, I got in trouble one more time pretty bad in 2009. That's when everything kind shifted for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. After you've been working.

[Jon Bernthal]

That's when I stopped drinking and. Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't drink.

[Jon Bernthal]

I do not.

[Dax Shepard]

For how long?

[Jon Bernthal]

Since 2009.

[Dax Shepard]

2009.

[Lily Padman]

Congratulations. Long time.

[Jon Bernthal]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Meanings or anything or.

[Jon Bernthal]

No, no, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Therapy.

[Jon Bernthal]

You said that event more than anything else. Like, yes, I was working. It was a really bad thing happened in Venice. And I think more than anything else, there's an issue, sort of with one of my dogs. I tried to take my dog, he was a bunch of them. I ended up hitting a guy and he got knocked out and hit his head on the ground. Being down in jail in LA and not knowing whether this guy was going to wake up. And it was literally as profound and clear a moment as I've ever had. Wow. Okay. If you're going this way, this is your life now. There's no more acting, there's no more girlfriend, there's no more any of this. You got to go be the devil. You're going that way. He's not waking up. This is your life now.

[Dax Shepard]

You just ruined your entire life for me.

[Jon Bernthal]

It was way more active than that. It was like, okay, if we're going in that direction, I'm going to let you into my life. I will be the worst version of myself. I will fully give over to whatever energy that is. And I see with so many people, violent criminals, folks that we call monsters. I know that they've been in the same spot. And I was ready, man. It's not a tough guy bullshit. It's like, I am ready for whatever the fuck comes my way, and I will meet it with whatever comes my way. And then the next thought was like, but if just this one time, please, I swear I'm dumb. I will devote myself to this thing. I will devote myself to this woman. I will serv. In every way that I can. I will really do your work, whatever that is. I promise you. Literally, in that moment, he woke up. That was July 3, 2009. July 3, 2010, I was in Atlanta starting the Walking Dead, engaged to my wife, a year sober. Year later, my first son, Henry, was born. I'm, like, blown away with gratitude. And at any point, including now, if it all goes away.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you read the Pat Tillman book? The Jon Krakauer book, Where Men Win Glory?

[Jon Bernthal]

Sure. I love that book. He had that moment, that exact same moment.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he really hurt a guy right before college, and he was almost done.

[Lily Padman]

It gives you a lot of empathy, as you said. When you hear about these stories of people, it's so easy to say, like, yeah, they're just bad.

[Jon Bernthal]

You know, when I go into prisons and I get to know these people and there's some folks that we've been a part of reducing their sentences and getting them out. The biggest thing that I'm aware of when I talk about my life, there's shame in it. Because the truth is, man, I had every opportunity. I went to grade school. I had good parents who loved me. And I hit these walls over and over and over and over. So many chances. This wasn't the worst thing that I had ever done. Like, dude, what are you doing? But the thing that I find is the only reason that I got these second chances is because of that privilege. Honestly, it's the only reason. And there are so many folks who just don't have that or who made that same deal with whatever, and it didn't work out for them. And they're no better than me. They're no worse than me.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have an explanation for what was driving this side of you.

[Jon Bernthal]

For me, it's always again been. I have these pillars of brothers who never up. Just got it all figured out. And by the way, always made me feel like I had real worth in a bind. You go to John, you really want to talk about something, emotion. You really want to have an honest conversation. I know they come to me. They'll always come to me. And I was always that guy. That being said, I know it all came from shame. It all came from the times I was beat up, the times that I was jumped and I didn't do anything about it. The times that I was really scared.

[Dax Shepard]

I can explain all this by one event. I let a kid be beat me up in sixth grade, and for years I laid in bed at night going, oh, my God, why didn't you fight back?

[Jon Bernthal]

Do you know how much violence has happened because of young men laying in bed and light hating themselves because they couldn't make their hands move?

[Dax Shepard]

I've never been more mad at myself. And it's funny because we interviewed Conor McGregor and I was like, how do you get in? Oh, I saw a boxing gym. I'm like, there's got to be more to it than that. Oh, I got jumped by these guys that were older than me. Okay. And then I go, well, I didn't fight back. He's like, yeah, yeah, I didn't really. I'm like, yeah, that produced Conor McGregor.

[Jon Bernthal]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

God, it's fucking powerful, the amount of shame. I'm 50. It's all worked out. I'll be in bed and I'll just occasionally I can be on the couch watching the kid punch me in the face for a long time.

[Jon Bernthal]

I know how toxic that road is, that shame and that I'm really a wimp. I'm really a coward if these guys find me out, you know? So I'm going to talk a little bit. Like, all those things are just such horrible roads to walk down. And it is crazy that a lot of the things that I get to do is portray these uber tough, strong. And the thing that I find such a gift is that I'm really aware of each one of their. Not just deep vulnerabilities and sensitivities, but their shame. I just don't think there's any such thing as, like, violence without pain and shame.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

You're crying inside. You go into prison and you hang out among folks who have had real, real time to sit with this. You go into prisons and you Find folks who are, in my opinion, some of the most ethical and innov and deep and spiritually sound because they've just had so much time to sit and really work a lot of this stuff out. And when you find folks like that, it's such a gift, you know, fully evolved, like, fully figured it out. There are people who never get to be around their kids because they're behind walls. And I think they're some of the best parents on Earth. The way that they breathe is in full consideration of their children, of their offspring, of their spiritual connection. And I'm so in awe of it.

[Dax Shepard]

You've done a bunch of great shit. I'm going to jump right to. To one thing. Cause I saw you in Walking Dead, and to be honest, I was like, ugh, I know this guy. I would be fighting this guy at the bar and I couldn't enjoy it. Like, it was that visceral for me. The character, the actor.

[Jon Bernthal]

Oh, shame. He's a dick.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was like, oh, I just. I couldn't really enjoy it. I was like, yeah, this dude and I are at a bar.

[Jon Bernthal]

It's a good show. I wish I didn't do that for you, dude. Can you watch it and just fast forward through my stuff?

[Dax Shepard]

This is great, though. Cause I'm like, oh, this guy. And I would get into it so bad.

[Lily Padman]

Because you're the same.

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. That's what happens.

[Dax Shepard]

And you just know.

[Jon Bernthal]

Can I say one thing about that? Yeah. The guy who 2009, got knocked out, hit his head. 2010, July 3rd. I wrote him a letter and I said to him, I realized that when I hit you, I saw you and me, and I wanted to fucking smash it. That's what it was. Sorry. I just wanted to say that.

[Dax Shepard]

Thousand percent. Then you start popping up in other stuff, and I'm like, oh, this guy's really.

[Jon Bernthal]

This guy. I hate.

[Dax Shepard]

This guy's pretty good.

[Jon Bernthal]

Fucking.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, this guy's pretty good. And then for me, we own the city. I was like, I'm prepared to bow down.

[Jon Bernthal]

Oh, man.

[Dax Shepard]

Holy.

[Jon Bernthal]

What a gift.

[Dax Shepard]

Look, are you good in that show, man? That's like Gandolfini level. Oh, my God.

[Jon Bernthal]

Thanks, man.

[Dax Shepard]

I cannot believe that show wasn't enormous.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. I feel so bad for David and George because they're so great. You know, it's the Wire. But that show was, I think, at that time, especially in a subject matter that I'm so curious about, fascinated by, deplored by race and policing. It's like so at the center because of that show, I got this unbelievable front row ticket and access point in this city that is like right at the tip of the spear of these issues. And to really get to understand policing. And for three months, going out every single night on the east side with the gun squad and then on the west side of Baltimore with Nagovich and them and on SWAT raids and like, really getting to know these guys really, really well. And then at the same time understanding it through the systemic lens that George and David kind singularly can do, then getting to know the real guy and understanding it for all its complexities, it was just such a gift.

[Dax Shepard]

Both the Wire and We Own the City is as close as you can get to narrative being a documentary. I mean, it's just so enjoyably specific. There's not one line of exposition that someone thought, they know how it works, they know how it works.

[Jon Bernthal]

When you're dealing with David and George, they're not interested in making the scene. The funniest. It is journalistic integrity. It's like we're shooting this with as many of the real people as we can.

[Dax Shepard]

Not in an offensive way. It's almost a reenactment.

[Jon Bernthal]

It is. But to play this, like, wildly colorful guy that everyone said, like, the dude's larger than life in this tapestry where like 90% of the people I'm working with are not actors. What a gift. And in that world at that time, after Freddy, to be able to go into Baltimore, in Baltimore, the Wire is like required watching for every cop, like, you know, for every gangster, for every community member.

[Dax Shepard]

Common.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, dude. And so, like, when you're saying, hey, I'm here with that, they open up to you, you unbelievable friends. But the experiences I had getting to play that role. Yeah, I'm just so grateful for it.

[Dax Shepard]

I am so happy for you that you had that.

[Jon Bernthal]

Oh, thanks, man. Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow, you're incredible. I know we're here to promote other stuff, but everyone needs to go watch. We own this.

[Jon Bernthal]

I agree, man.

[Lily Padman]

I know we're in career mode, but I do have a question because based on this whole interview, I wonder what your opinion is on this. Have you seen Adolescents yet?

[Jon Bernthal]

I have not. I saw his movie. I cannot wait to see this show.

[Lily Padman]

It's fantastic. It is exploring the plight of young boys and violence and incel culture and how all this happens. I was like, how do we fix this? And I don't know that you have the answer, but you've experienced a lot of this stuff, and I wonder, do you have an opinion on that?

[Jon Bernthal]

My Two oldest, they're a year apart. Man. It's like everything. How do I raise? Kind, empathetic, sturdy young men, protectors who take accountability. And there are things that I really feel my wife and I have gotten right.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

And there are things that I really feel like we haven't. And that is the rub. There are things that are unquestionably good. I think jiu jitsu is unquestionably good. A martial art that doesn't require you to strike somebody, which causes the other person to get angry and scared and strike you back, or that is such violent with striking that they could fall down and hurt themselves. But it's a martial art of getting close. You hearing them breathe and say, hey, I'm right here, and this needs to stop now. I got you. I'm with you. To teach that to kids and to get them to have a facility in that and to be able to walk into a room and know that that is an unquestionable good thing. Really having respect for nature, like getting outside, learning how to be outside, loving outside, doubling down on things that no one can take away from you. No one can take nature away from you. No one can take reading away from you. No one can take music away from you. Giving them these solid touchstones to really see value in those things. Things as kids, freaking huge. And then everyone says it, and maybe I'll be proven wrong. It's sad, but the phone and the screen is the enemy. But I was raised, the kids that were told, don't ever touch beer, don't ever touch sugar. Those are the kids. Like, the second they got the shot, they're, oh, exactly right. Like, how do you do it? But I think what you can do is you can clown the out of people who are always on their phones. That's what I do with my kids. I'm like, look at that family. That motherfucker has not gone off. Like, how sad is that? Maybe that's not the best way. But it's a way point out, like, that that guy's not going off his phone. But I do think that there are sort of undeniable things. Art and food and skills and travel, confidence.

[Lily Padman]

I guess that's how you get it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Because then you don't have to prove in other ways.

[Jon Bernthal]

I guess.

[Dax Shepard]

So let's talk about what's coming out. You have so much coming out. First of all, you won an Emmy last year for bear last year.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Congrats.

[Jon Bernthal]

Thanks, man.

[Dax Shepard]

So you're on the bear. You're going to be in the new season of the Bear, you have the amateur coming out April 11th. That's with Laurence Fishburne and Rami Malek. So the Accountant two. I saw Accountant one seemingly from the trailer. This one's a two hander.

[Jon Bernthal]

More so.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's really exciting.

[Jon Bernthal]

Again, not to be a cheese dick, but I do believe the greatest part of this thing is the people that you get to meet along the way. And in the first one, Ben and I really didn't get much time together. My character was sort of mysterious. You didn't know that they were brothers and they come together at the end. This one is the two of them together and Gavin O'Connor and Bill Dubuque, same writer and director. I don't know about for you, you guys, but as I'm getting older and older, I am just constantly looking for models of people that have really got it going. And Gavin's a guy that I really look at. He's been through it. He's been in those valleys. And I don't think you can be up in the mountaintops unless you've been in the valleys. But he is just like a family first guy who takes his art super seriously and I love him. And I've really found that with Ben. I just got done working with Matt on the Nolan film.

[Dax Shepard]

Wait, you're in a Nolan movie? You son of a.

[Jon Bernthal]

That's why I have this haircut.

[Lily Padman]

Congratulations.

[Jon Bernthal]

Thanks, man.

[Lily Padman]

That is really.

[Dax Shepard]

Talk about being anointed.

[Jon Bernthal]

Oh, boy. You know, I knew Matt from Ford Ferrari, but I just think that what they're doing together with this company is so beyond beautiful and what we need. And I think in a way it's going to save this whole thing. They're artists, first guys, but Ben is brilliant.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, intimidatingly so, almost.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. He really is such an incredible filmmaker. And what I loved is on this film, he's the studio head and he's the lead actor, but he's not the director.

[Dax Shepard]

He's like Bill Russell. He's the coach and a player.

[Jon Bernthal]

And it's such an interesting thing to sort of navigate, especially in that role, through personal things in his life. He's really got a deeper connection to the role and you can see it and you can feel it. I think he's brilliant in the movie and we really had this awesome thing together.

[Dax Shepard]

You guys are exploring in a fun way. He's autistic and you're not, and you're brothers and you have a relationship and you're trying to understand what's happening with him. Does he love you? Does he care about you? Does he think about you? His behavior is very hard to read. That's all happening in this. That's a cool storyline.

[Jon Bernthal]

Really cool. And I think it's really personal to everybody who made it, which is the most important. Bill DeBuc, who wrote it, created Ozark. He's wonderful.

[Dax Shepard]

You wrote the Judge. I was in that.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah, man. That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

He was a headhunter in St. Louis or something. Right before the Judge. It's a great story.

[Jon Bernthal]

It does come from a really personal place. And I think that he writes family. And when you think about Gavin and the movies that he makes and sort of uncovering father issues and brother issues and masculinity, and these guys are all sort of like deep dive type guys. Because of the first film, you do get sort of a sense through these flashbacks of how these boys were raised in this really, really unique, violent way by their father. I wanted Brax, the character that I played, he had to be equally. I didn't want it. Like, one guy's got the affliction and the other guy's got it figured out. It's like, no, he is every bit.

[Dax Shepard]

Here's one side of the coin, here's the other side.

[Jon Bernthal]

That shit. They're equally dependent on each other. They're equally in awe of each other. They're equally frustrated with each other. I find with everybody. I don't know if you guys think this with the relationships in your life that are the most important, but I'm constantly blown away by the things that I love about people so much are such a close cousin to what I cannot fucking stand about them. Like, it's like the same thing. And it can be something totally positive. My wife will never tell a lie. She will never exaggerate. Her integrity is so insane. But it's like, dude, if we just say he's sick, you know, like, burrow, like, we can get through this. But, oh, my God, I'm so in awe. And so I think you really feel that in this movie, the things that these guys love each other for are exactly what also drives them crazy. And I think it's really honest.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, do you like this term method actor, or do you hate it? Do you have objections?

[Jon Bernthal]

I don't know that, like, I hate. Look, being from the Moscow Art Theater and all that. I do think it's bastardized. And it has nothing to do with what that method was.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the colloquial understanding of method is you don't break character ever, which.

[Jon Bernthal]

Is not what Stanislavski's method was at all with that.

[Dax Shepard]

Said you played a mute in a movie.

[Jon Bernthal]

Oh, fuck. Fucking Holland. Did Tom tell you this?

[Dax Shepard]

I just read it. And you didn't talk to anybody for months?

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

How does that.

[Jon Bernthal]

Well, it didn't work, dude. I mean, like.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you mean it didn't work?

[Jon Bernthal]

Fucking Tom's on this Nolan movie too, man, and he was just clowning me. Yes. I was playing a fucking mute. And embarrassingly, we were in this tiny little village in Ireland, and it was one of these deals were all living together at the same little resort. There's nowhere to go, so every meal, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, we're together. So we're not just together on set. We're together all. Which is great. I love these guys. Wouldn't want it any other way, except I come up with this idea. I'm going to be silent the entire time. So now they've been dealing with this.

[Dax Shepard]

What if you saw someone was on fire, bro?

[Jon Bernthal]

But, like, the way it all came to an end, which is so embarrassing, is not only do they have to deal with me on set, but we would sit there at dinner. What do you want for dinner? And I'd be like, you know, this is so lame.

[Lily Padman]

You kind of boxed yourself in a corner, bro.

[Jon Bernthal]

It was so bad. And then there was salmon for every meal, and I'm obsessed with lemon for my salmon. So I wrote on this little notepad to Tom Holland, who was like, 17 at the time. I'm like, hey, dude, can you get me some lemon for my thing? I write that down. He's like, of course. Can we have some lemon? And the guy comes over and drops the lemon in my soda, and I'm like, I'm done. I'm done. I can't do it anymore. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That was the breaking point.

[Jon Bernthal]

That was the breaking point. That was one of the breaking points. And I think the thing that is frustrating to people and certain people are definitely guilty of it, and I really try to catch myself, because there is this thing that we want to show everybody how hard we're working. Some of it is performative. And I have seen people where I've been like, oh, this motherfucker. Like, we all know how hard you're working, dude. Like, great. Good for you. But I've also been unbelievably surprised by that, where I thought that. And I was like, oh, no. I will tell you. Shia on Fury, when I first saw him get back from real boot camp in full fatigue, show up at Brad Pitt's house. Be like, I just got back from boot camp, G. And I was like, dude. And then eight months later, this has not stopped for one second. Being all the way dialed in, and he's laying down that no one else is laying down. He's proving once again to perform on a level that other people can't do. Other people can't do it, and that is his thing. I really do try to give people the benefit of the doubt and say, God bless you, man. Like, if that's what you need to do, I think it's cool.

[Dax Shepard]

I think everyone gets to skin the cat how they want to.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then the last thing, you have a really popular podcast. You have a podcast that's adored and loved. And so you're a peer in this space. The real ones, you have firefighters, first responders, drug dealers, convicts. You have the whole spectrum. How do you find folks?

[Jon Bernthal]

To be honest with you, over 90% of the people that I have on are just of mine from life, that I've just been lucky enough to get to know a lot of the cops in Baltimore. I have a real weird relationship with it. I've always really felt the need to shy away from getting too much of me out there.

[Dax Shepard]

That's an old actor trope, though.

[Jon Bernthal]

It is. I totally get it. I also think that, for me, we don't make money off the show. I don't monetize it in any way. The genesis of it was really after George Floyd. I found myself watching that and knowing that I had to be part of the resistance. It would make me so angry and so disgusted and that I had to do something. And I would turn on the TV and I would go down there, and then I would see people throwing bottles at cops. And I looked at each one of those cops, and I'm like, I know these people. Their brothers, their sisters, their fathers, their daughters. And then I would go down to Newton Division, where a bunch of my really good friends work, and I would go make sure they were good. I just was so sort of disgusted with the national discourse on subjects like that, but especially that, where I felt like the folks at the being the loudest were the people at the opposite poles waving their flags as hard as they could because they were filled with fear and shame because they'd never experienced anything in the middle. They had never been down in that valley where they've actually come face to face with a cop or they've come face to face with somebody from one of those communities. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

And then I just looked at my life. And I was like, wow. The one thing that I know is the guys that I know who run gangs and guys who I know who have been in that life and are real community minded, community activists, the real ones, they can look among their own community and they can tell you who's real and who's not. They'll tell you which one of these guys, yeah, he stands for the set, but he's not. Like, that guy ain't the real thing. That dude right there, he's down for it. Like, he'll help the lady crossroad. He's down for this community. And they can look across the divide and say, that cop over there, he's real. He shows up. There's a kid in our community that has cancer. Since he's five years old, he shows up. And I've also saw it on the other side with the cops that they can look over and say, that guy, stand up.

[Dax Shepard]

Integrity.

[Jon Bernthal]

And then I was like, wait a second, what would happen if I put those guys together? Because in this moment where everyone's an expert but no one is actually walking the walk, what would happen if you put those two guys together? And those are the people ultimately that I want my kids to learn from. And so that's what the first shows were. Were. Basically, it was cops that I was buddies with and gangsters that I was buddies with. But then it kind of evolved and it was, yeah, Special forces, soldiers, surgeons, teachers, activists, actors. But I'm a fan of your guys show. You guys are actually really great at this. Not.

[Dax Shepard]

I disagree with that.

[Jon Bernthal]

No, no, I'm really not. The point that I'm saying is that my show is never.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not about you.

[Jon Bernthal]

It's definitely not. And the one thing that we hear over and over about my show is he didn't say anything.

[Dax Shepard]

You're a facilitator.

[Lily Padman]

That's great.

[Jon Bernthal]

I hope so. As I get older, in both fatherhood and this career, I really keep coming back to intention. Intentions are everything. Like, what are your intentions? And every time that I've done one of those shows where I can get behind my intentions. Forgive me, but when I used to play baseball, I had this coach in college who used to. You're in the batter's box and all of a sudden you start spiraling like, I can't hit this ball, dude. He's got. Look, he's gonna throw a curveball. What is it? And you start to spiral out of control. And this guy said that in those moments, you gotta step the out and Remind yourself, why do you do this in the first place? Take yourself back. It's like, what are you doing this for? And if that is really clear and solid in the podcast thing for me, when I've had people on where I believe in this person, one day I want my son, Lil Bill Bernthal, to listen to this guy and be like, yeah, dad. With this guy, dad says, watch this. It's not about who they voted for. It's not about their politics. This motherfucker has integrity. This motherfucker is about it. And the majority of the people that we have on our show, they've never been on camera before. You guys do that, too. Like, they've never done this. And I recognize that I'm asking them to do something that they're really not that comfortable with. And I do have a very weird relationship with it because, look, you guys, I'm sure people are just lining up to be. I mean, like, look at the people you guys have on. Like, on our show, it's a little different. It's like, oh, shit, that's right. I remember my friend from D.C. it's more that kind of thing. I'm sort of have to sell them on the fact that, hey, you know me. Yeah, I'm not going to fuck with you. Anything you don't want in here, take it out. You know, like, you're good. And then in the same way, I know you're either a really good friend of mine or you're a friend of a friend who say, this dude, there's no bullshit here. There's no bravado. There's no bluster. This person, this woman, and this man is the real thing.

[Dax Shepard]

That's awesome. I think people should check it out. The real ones with John Bernthal. Watch the Amateur. Watch the Accountant 2. Watch Daredevil. Watch the Bear. My fucking goodness.

[Lily Padman]

Awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know how you have the endurance for it all.

[Lily Padman]

Watch the new Nolan movie.

[Dax Shepard]

This was awesome.

[Jon Bernthal]

Thank you. I really appreciate you guys having me. Yeah, you guys are awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

I loved. It was so good.

[Jon Bernthal]

Thank you, brother, very much.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[Lily Padman]

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather, it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics.

[Jon Bernthal]

I would define reclaiming as to take.

[Lily Padman]

Back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen.

[Jon Bernthal]

And ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

[Lily Padman]

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks both recognizable and unrecognizable. Names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like.

[Jon Bernthal]

They filled their tank up, they connected.

[Lily Padman]

With the people that I'm talking to, and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Dax Shepard]

Lamont Jones world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County Penns, a chilling true story of corruption and coverups that begins as one one man's search for answers, but soon reveals a disturbing Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County, Pennsylvania pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now. Follow Death County Penn, the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad free right now by joining wondery. I'm David McCloskey, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist.

[Jon Bernthal]

And I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist.

[Dax Shepard]

And together we're the hosts of the Rest Is Classified, where we bring you brilliant stories from the world of spies.

[Jon Bernthal]

This week we're talking about one of the most significant stories of the 21st century, Edward Edward Snowden, and how he orchestrated the biggest leak of classified secrets in modern American and British history.

[Dax Shepard]

Snowden revealed that the American government was mass collecting data on its own citizens, and it was really the first time that Americans and so many others around the world understood the extent of the US Government's mass surveillance.

[Jon Bernthal]

That's right, it's a story I covered at the time. And it also really gets to wider questions about what privacy means, how technology technology has changed our lives, and what the government and companies can do with data we might have thought was private.

[Dax Shepard]

And we'll take you through the whole story, from Snowden's early career in the CIA and the NSA to his life in exile in Russia.

[Jon Bernthal]

So to hear more search for the Rest Is Classified wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dax Shepard]

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom. Mrs. Monica comes in and tells us what was wrong.

[Lily Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm really trying to figure out what, how that happened.

[Lily Padman]

You're late for the listener, 23 minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I would say more than just late. So I got back from dropping delta off. I was like, I got to work out, then record.

[Lily Padman]

That was the plan for the day.

[Dax Shepard]

That was the plan, then edit. And then I was like, I'm very tired. I'm going to take a 20 minute nap. So it must have been 9:45.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And I set my alarm for 10:15, 30 minute nap. But that's not. I now know that's not what it. I was like, oh, I set it for 10:15. Then I'll have a 40 minutes to work out and then I'll be able to still do all, all the things. Then I'm taking this nap and do you ever do this when you're taking a nap and you're like, you're kind of waking up a little bit. And I'm like, oh God, this is so much longer than I thought. Like, am I gonna. The alarm's gonna go off any second. And then I'm like, okay, who cares? Right? And then I go back.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So I was weirdly conscious of how long the nap was. And then I thought that was part of my dream.

[Lily Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, oh my God, this feels so long. Anyways, my alarm goes off. Oh, okay, great. Then I look at the wall clock and I'm like, 11:15. I'm like, 11:15.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, you said it wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

I did. It's more than that. I knew I was setting at 11:15, but for some reason you knew you.

[Lily Padman]

Were setting it at 11:15.

[Dax Shepard]

For some reason that was 10:15. I was still going to have. I was sitting at 11:15 and I was going to have 45 minutes to work out, which makes no sense. Sense. That's what I'm struggling with.

[Lily Padman]

And we started at 11:11.

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. I just confused out of whack.

[Dax Shepard]

I confused 11:15 for 10:15 is what happened.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, that happens. I'm jealous.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Were you sleepy? You would have liked to have slept longer. Instead you got over here on time.

[Lily Padman]

And then I mostly I was five minutes late. I was dressed and then. And I'm running in stressed and then you're not here.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no. Why were you late? Did you have too long of a nap?

[Lily Padman]

No, no, I was working. We had a call.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a shameful fact check.

[Lily Padman]

We had a merch call, Easter egg. And then after that I only had 30 minutes to take My shower and put on my makeup and get here.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Turns out you had 40 minutes.

[Lily Padman]

35.

[Dax Shepard]

Fuck. I'm sorry.

[Lily Padman]

That's all right. Did you listen to the podcast I sent you yet?

[Dax Shepard]

No, because you sent it to me at late last night. Or not late last night, but like 9 o'clock at night.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, probably.

[Dax Shepard]

And so I couldn't listen to it then. And this is another part of the thing. I was the full intention.

[Lily Padman]

8, 27.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm an hour fucked up. I'm not really. No, my full intention was like, I'm going to listen to that while I work out and then you are going to talk about it in the fact check. I didn't make it to that workout.

[Lily Padman]

Easter egg again. There's so many Easter eggs already.

[Dax Shepard]

This is all kind of, I think, reflective of what my updates would be.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, let's hear them.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I'm going to hit you with the headline. I think this is miraculous.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think people will. They'll be scrutinizing of this. They'll be skeptical of these numbers, but I swear, these are numbers. I weigh myself every day pre post duty. Wednesday when we left for New York, I was £194 in the morning, almost on the dot. Then when we got home on Sunday, I weighed myself 208.8 pounds.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So I gained 14.8 pounds in three days.

[Lily Padman]

That's cool. Cool. Well, you were in New York. You were probably eating.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God, was I eating?

[Lily Padman]

You know what it might mean?

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me.

[Lily Padman]

It might mean that that's what your body really wants to be at. And you're. You're kind of always like a little under what your body wants.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

I think I feel like that a little bit. Like if I just don't hold the reins. Yeah. If I'm not like, actively like thinking about sort of what I'm eating and doing my farmer's carries and my wogs and all this. If I'm just like being.

[Dax Shepard]

I want you to write a fitness.

[Lily Padman]

Manual as well, then wogs and farmer carries, then I think my body at this stage in life wants to be at a. At a certain number. And I'm like active at keeping it a little bit under that. That.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes.

[Lily Padman]

But I think that's what it really naturally just wants. Should I just give it what it wants?

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta give your body what it wants. I. Mine is just eating so fast and so much and just. I overate what you eat. Oh, my God. Infinite hamburgers. But a new thing that I'm here To give a testimonial for.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Urge you to do. On your next trip to New York. Have you ever been to Mercado Little Spain? That's Jose Andres. Oh, no Market in Chelsea.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, then maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Monica, you're gonna die.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll add. I walk in and it kind of looks like a food court a little bit. Right?

[Lily Padman]

The Chelsea Mar. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But it's not. It's so. So elevated and hand built and everything's so good. And the meat has been flown in from Spain and they have a cool little market.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so my intention was to go and get the hamburger there. Cause remember, Jose was like, I make the best burger when we interviewed him. And so I go in there with the intention of getting that burger. I invite Dr. Mike.

[Lily Padman]

Nice.

[Dax Shepard]

We got a really cool tour of the whole thing. I'm gonna cut to some of the things that came my way. They take olives, they press them, then they gather the oil and whatever else came out of it. And then they put it in some kind of calcium or do something to it. It comes out on a spoon. Monica. And it's an egg yolk. Have you had this?

[Lily Padman]

No, but that sounds like something they do at a Michelin restaurant.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, it's. It's got a now skin over it. But all it is is the olive oil.

[Lily Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's a yolk. And you take the spoon and you put it. And then it pops in your mouth.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The taste. I couldn't believe how good this was. Best artichokes ever. Then the Big Daddy burger. Then also recommended this More street burger. And it was. He's right. He had. It is. Yeah. Emily Burger got some major competition.

[Lily Padman]

So truthful. No, you're just honest.

[Dax Shepard]

Now don't let that break your heart.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I also ate at Emily Burger three times.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, good. And Corner Bistro.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, I haven't been there in a while.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. So it was a good spot.

[Lily Padman]

It's a classic tour. Nice. Oh, this is a ding ding ding. Tell me this is a ding ding ding to a story been wanting to tell for a minute. David Chang.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yes, you. Yes.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. Because when I went to Napa with Cali, we got to the airport. Burbank Airport. Dream of all dreams. If you live in la to fly out of the Burbank airport.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't even want you to tell people about it. But yes, I know it's a blessing.

[Lily Padman]

It. It's. You're in and out so fast. Especially because I carried on. Can you imagine?

[Dax Shepard]

I Can't.

[Lily Padman]

And anyway, it was so exciting. We get to the air. Airport. We get to the vestibule. What's it called?

[Dax Shepard]

Baggage claim?

[Lily Padman]

No, Terminal. Terminal. Thank you. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Vestibule. Vestibule three. You're flying out of vestibule.

[Lily Padman]

Sometimes you just have to put in a word.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it had similar amount of syllables.

[Lily Padman]

I think it could count.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Anyway, we got to the terminal. Terminal sounds. Yeah, Just gate. What?

[Jon Bernthal]

Gate.

[Lily Padman]

Gate, Gate.

[Dax Shepard]

But then for the Bill Gates conspiracy theorist, that's a problem, too.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. We there. And Callie's like, oh, I think that's that. That fancy chef. And I was like, oh, it's David Chang now. We've interviewed David Chang.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Additionally, we've also, like, been in Spotify events with him. Like, we've seen him over time. It's not. But I. But I knew. I was like, he is not gonna know me out of context, so I'm going to, like, not say anything to him.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, you decide. I'm not gonna.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. But I. You know, it's kind of like. Well. But I really don't want to get near him because I don't want this to be an awkward. Or, like, if he's like, oh, I kind of do recognize her, but.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

I got kind of anxious.

[Dax Shepard]

You overthought it? Maybe a little bit.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And then, you know, we got called up, so we went. But. So something happened. And we got sent up there, but it was the wrong gate. So everyone was, like, in line, and it was the wrong thing. And she. Callie and I were first. So the. The woman told us it was wrong. And so then I was like, ugh. And I like, look over behind to kind of tell everyone. And it's. And he's there.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Right there.

[Dax Shepard]

Right in your face.

[Lily Padman]

So then I had. I was. I ha. I felt I had to, at that point.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Kind of say. So I was like, hey.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. Oh.

[Lily Padman]

So uncomfortable. And he was like, hey. And I could tell. Again, I knew. I was like. Like, I knew this was gonna happen. He's gonna kind of know. He should know that I'm not, like, a stranger who's saying hey.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, even that tone of hey, you told him I know you.

[Lily Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

But. And he was like, hey, how are you? And I was like, oh, I'm good. And then I just left. Or. No, I said, I'm. How are you? He said, good. And I said, and then I just left. Or Callie was like, let's go. You know, she Got me out of there. And she cut me out.

[Dax Shepard]

She whisked me away.

[Lily Padman]

She had to step in. But, like, I know. I don't know what happened. Clearly, I should have just been like Monica from Armchair Expert.

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Lily Padman]

It's just so easy to do that. But it felt impossible. I was so befuddled at the vestibule. And then we just stood on the side like, idiot.

[Dax Shepard]

Now you're. Now you're really flogging yourself.

[Lily Padman]

And then we get to the airport leak. Going home. And I was. And. And she said, what if David Chang is here? I was like, he. No, he probably already. I'm sure he came here for, like, cook. Yeah, exactly. And then left. It's fine. And then we're sitting at the terminal gate, and she's like, he's here. She's so, so excited. Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

She wants round two of this.

[Lily Padman]

Thrilled.

[Dax Shepard]

Huh?

[Lily Padman]

Oh, no. So again, again, avoiding. And I managed to avoid this time completely until. So, Callie, sitting at the window. I'm sitting at the aisle. All of a sudden, she just looks at me with this face, and I look over and guess who's sit in.

[Dax Shepard]

Your row in my single banger.

[Lily Padman]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. Now what?

[Lily Padman]

Ignore the whole time. Oh, I had to ignore him the entire. And he was, like, kind of having an issue with the bat. Well, his. He was holding a thing we think is bread.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Lily Padman]

And I wanted to know where the bread was from.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Lily Padman]

But I didn't. I just. I just, like, looked like. To the right the whole flight.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. That's intense.

[Lily Padman]

It was so upsetting. And then she was like, do you want to switch seats? I was like, well, no. That's really weird.

[Jon Bernthal]

Kill.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you. You thought he smelled?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And. Or his bread smelled.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, not the bread. People like the smell of bread.

[Lily Padman]

Well, I don't know what it was. I don't know what it was.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

But I did want to know. And I guess. And we made a plan that if for some reason there was another. A third interaction, if there was another interaction that I had, I could ask. Oh, what you got in there? That was my line.

[Dax Shepard]

You're really flailing.

[Lily Padman]

Is it red? Where'd you get it? We can't talk to him again.

[Dax Shepard]

It's funny. You.

[Lily Padman]

Sorry, Rob. None of us can eat at any of these restaurants or do any of this.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you want me to text him?

[Lily Padman]

Guys, stop it. Why do all of you have this deep relationship with him? And he doesn't even recognize me at the airport.

[Dax Shepard]

He's in Idaho. Every year.

[Jon Bernthal]

I see him at Foodstuff often, too.

[Lily Padman]

It really humbled me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, MAN on. I'm sorry. You had that. I feel like it brought you back to seventh grade or something.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Like in the lunch and you were with Cali. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, it feels. I'm sure, like, a lot of old muscle memory was triggered.

[Lily Padman]

It did feel like we were in the.

[Dax Shepard]

And he was a quarterback or something.

[Lily Padman]

Or we were at the mall.

[Dax Shepard]

You gave him nothing. Just familiarity and then potentially a false curiosity about his bag. Yeah, he said no. Like a little monster.

[Jon Bernthal]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Hello, David.

[Lily Padman]

Even after I decided, God, it would have just been so easy for me to say Monica from Armchair Expert. I didn't. I had the opportunity. I didn't do it again.

[Dax Shepard]

I will say in his defense, he was on Zoom. That was a Zoom interview.

[Lily Padman]

We. We saw him at the Spotify dinner.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Seen him multiple times. Obviously not as many times as the two of you have seen him.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. I'm un.

[Lily Padman]

Or I'm just not memorable, which is probably true.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not true.

[Lily Padman]

It's out text. I wasn't with you. It was awful. And I really want to know what the bread was. Oh, can you ask?

[Dax Shepard]

I'll ask. I'll ask. Hey, my friend Monica was on a flight with you up to Napa. Opposite experience. My kids made fun of me for the first three days in Hawaii. I. I mean, you know, I don't ever talk to anyone on an airplane. I. I just want to watch my shows. I've brought on my ipacks, and that's my goal.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, you mean, like, the people you're with?

[Dax Shepard]

If I'm seated next to somebody, I'm not striking up a conversation.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, oh, yeah. No, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm trying to watch all this content I downloaded on my ipacks. Yeah, I've got it so mapped out. Like, I'm going to watch this many episodes of this, but I got sent a video of a dude that was filming riding behind me on a motorcycle at Circuit of America's in Austin, the racetrack, before takeoff. It was just, like, I had enough signal to download this video and watch a lap. And I'm watching it, and then I hear the guy next to me says, was that Koda? And because he immediately knew it was Koda from, like, two turns, I go, oh, yeah, it's Koda. Have you been there? And he goes, oh, yeah, I do a lot of track days there. And his name was Boyd. And Monica. Entire trip to Hawaii, five and a half hours. We talked like Two schoolgirls.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Boyd, what a stud. He's a builder who lives on Maui and is so into cars and everything. And my kids just couldn't get over it. They'd never seen me. Oh, they get up or I'd have to take Delta to the bathroom. She'd go, wow, you're really talking that guy, huh? There's like, does he need a break?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. You were talking to Vera. Well, I guess we have strengths and weaknesses. You talk a lot. And I don't talk at all.

[Jon Bernthal]

Nope.

[Dax Shepard]

That's. That was in no reference to your story other than it reminded me I had a real ideal seatmate, which never happens.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, I don't talk either.

[Dax Shepard]

It was such a fun and good conversation. It felt kind of crazy to not exchange numbers at the end. I can see how people fall in love on airplanes.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Meet cutes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I told him where I was staying.

[Lily Padman]

And I kept hoping he'd pop around.

[Dax Shepard]

I kept. At dinner, I would like, look, I'm like, I wonder if he'll just.

[Lily Padman]

That is like a love interest. And what happens is you're talking to the kids at the restaurant. You're chit chatting, and then you just see, like out in the distance, there's Boyd, and he's standing there and he does a little wave. And then you get up and you beeline. And then you make out. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

All with the make out.

[Lily Padman]

That's how it goes.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. I have one more update from the trip.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So we went because Kristen is again, time 100 most influential people.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

We did not. I did not. And one. I know. She didn't either. She. We didn't look. She. No one. We didn't look at the list. We didn't know who was. Who was nominated other than her. I guess not. Now you're not nominated. You're declared.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So my joke, the two days leading up to it is was, you know, I bet the first 40, it's so obvious, right? They're the committee. Oh, yeah. That person. That person. And then 40 through 85 is probably a little. Takes more time.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

My hunch is 85. The last 15, I bet is like a month of them in a room. I never even heard of that. What? No. They can't be on the list. Like, I just imagine it gets harder and harder to make a case.

[Lily Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a lot of people to say sure. Anyways, go to the event and to our excitement. Adam and Naomi Scott are there.

[Lily Padman]

Adam was selected.

[Dax Shepard]

Adam's One so like. Oh, shoot.

[Lily Padman]

That's fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Very fun.

[Lily Padman]

Friend of the pod.

[Dax Shepard]

Friend of the pod. Just a friend. Good friend.

[Jon Bernthal]

I have an update.

[Lily Padman]

You texted him, Rob.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. This is like Lionel Richie. Uh. Oh. Ha ha. I did say hi when we left Burbank for nap, but I didn't. So I wasn't sure if it was actually her. Or maybe she did and I didn't hear. Or maybe I'm just gaslighting myself. I thought it was her. So it was pretty strange when I returned on the same floor sitting next to her. If I had doubled down and said hi again, it would have seemed very odd. Especially if it wasn't her. This was really a curb you'd enthusiasm moment. I did bring home all this bread that my kids never ate.

[Jon Bernthal]

Good job, Rob. That's a great.

[Lily Padman]

That's a great update.

[Dax Shepard]

Leave it up. Leave it up.

[Lily Padman]

You know, we both were thinking. I. I said hi, though. I said hi.

[Dax Shepard]

But it.

[Lily Padman]

And then he said hi.

[Dax Shepard]

It really demonstrates just how awkward being a human being is. Like, he was like, is that her? That's. That's her. Well, if it was her, she would have been a little more engaging.

[Lily Padman]

No. No.

[Dax Shepard]

Then she fucking iced me out on the flight. Would never look at me. You owe him an apology.

[Jon Bernthal]

How dare you?

[Lily Padman]

How dare you twist this into that? It was. I recognized him. Said hi.

[Dax Shepard]

You should send him a loaf of bread or something.

[Lily Padman]

He should send me one. Why.

[Dax Shepard]

Why am I. You're in trouble.

[Lily Padman]

I in trouble.

[Dax Shepard]

I slept till fudgeing 1pm but you're great.

[Lily Padman]

This is great. We were both. Hold on. I got to take a picture of that and send it to Cal.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's really funny stuff.

[Lily Padman]

Haha.

[Dax Shepard]

He really wrote a long. Look at that. He gave you a paragraph.

[Lily Padman]

What did. Rob, what did you say?

[Dax Shepard]

I just said that you brought it.

[Jon Bernthal]

Up on the fact. Fact check that you saw him on the way to Napa.

[Dax Shepard]

That could be from Natalie. I mean, we don't know the providence of this.

[Lily Padman]

Are you being harassed?

[Dax Shepard]

It's 100. It's how hard to trust Rob.

[Lily Padman]

I can't believe you can text him like that. I can't even talk to him in real life.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, he'll just be like, hey, Dick, what the fuck's up Monica? The slacks around you.

[Lily Padman]

Why didn't you talk to Monica?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

Rat.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, well, it's hard to be a person.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Jon Bernthal]

It just.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it demonstrates how awkward everyone feels at all times. Even if you're both successful in your own right. You still walking around like you're in seventh grade and you're not sure the person knows who you are.

[Lily Padman]

Seventh grade lunchroom.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, back to time 100.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

The event is. And I know I'm gonna get my. Myself excluded right now from ever being nominated. I'm looking around the room immediately. I'm so excited, you guys. As everyone knows, I wanna be around Simone Biles so bad.

[Lily Padman]

Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

She was there. I went up to her mom and told her mom how much I love her. And I wanted. Everyone asks her to do her hair now.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, that was cute.

[Dax Shepard]

And then there's a bunch of people I don't recognize because they've done something heroic around the globe that year.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so the thing kicks off and it's like Snoop Dogg is. Is emceeing. What a party. Snoop Dogg. He's right there. That's so exciting. So. And I'm like, how's this dude a better host than everybody? Like, he's reading off the prompter like all people, but it feels so good and natural. He's just an ace. Yeah, that's a blast. Woo woo. Let's go now to this honoree. Immediately, a microphone. And this woman has been freed like 68 days earlier from Hamas. And she tells this long story, this absolutely one of the worst stories you've ever heard in your life. And then begging for her husband, who's still there, oh my God. In tunnels to be released.

[Lily Padman]

This is horrible.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're like. You went from like Snoop Dogg. Cheering. So it goes from that. And now you're just kind of like, oh, man.

[Jon Bernthal]

Fuck.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel bad that I was having a good time.

[Lily Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And then back to Snoop. Like, bring out this great pop country star. And this guy gets out and he starts rocking on a guitar and he's like, everybody on your feet. And now we're all standing up and we're dancing. And then it goes to immediately, you.

[Lily Padman]

Know, like a climate change.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yes. It was just like this.

[Jon Bernthal]

Woo woo.

[Dax Shepard]

You didn't know what. It's on tv. You can see where you would be. You'd have the wrong looking on your face.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You just couldn't settle into a fucking mood or a tone or if we were there to have fun and celebrate, if we were there to really cry and be fucking heartbroken and bummed.

[Lily Padman]

Isn't that life?

[Dax Shepard]

It was a very accelerated version of life.

[Lily Padman]

Wow. Speaking of New York City, when I didn't go to New York, something really. This was really the opposite of sim and the opposite of a meet Cute.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

So I was supposed to go, as we know. I didn't go because of Buddhism.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And I don't know if I should say. I won't say who. There's a person in this industry, not. Not the podcasting industry, the entertainment industry, who I love. I'm obs. It's not Ben and Matt. This isn't a. I think, potentially an available person.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Lily Padman]

Very extremely attractive. Oh, I love him.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Lily Padman]

So I was supposed to go to SNL when I was there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Lily Padman]

Jon Hamm was hosting. So I was supposed to go to SNL with my friend Sally. And I didn't go, obviously, because I didn't go to New York. And she texted me the next day. She said, I met your boyfriend last night. And I was like, oh, Ben or Matt? And I was still upset about that, obviously. And she. She said, no, this person, the new Ben and Matt. And he was backstage.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Lily Padman]

With her. Like, with. Where I would have been.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no, with Sally.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And. And at the after party. And she talked to him at the after party because she said he's like. He looked kind of alone.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you love when someone's alone. Unless it's David Chan.

[Lily Padman]

I know. Maybe it actually.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe you could have had the most regrettable experience of your life, given this. I'm glad you. I'm glad you had a trial run with David Shane, because that wasn't even. There's nothing. There's no stakes.

[Jon Bernthal]

No.

[Lily Padman]

That's what made it hard. I don't know. I don't know what happened. I think it would have been great.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I play a role in this? Do I have access to this person?

[Lily Padman]

Well, we could maybe have this person on. There's a project. There's a project coming up that I think we could potentially have this person on this show. Now, we will not say who it is when it happens.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, boy.

[Lily Padman]

Anyway, so I missed a huge meet cute opportunity.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And I. It, like, kind of like I think about it every other day while I masturbate. Oh, no, no, no. That was a joke. That was a joke. That was a joke. But for real, it was sad.

[Dax Shepard]

That's sad.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sorry. The opposite of Boyd and I is.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, it's the opposite. I'm having a lot of opposites of you and Boyd. It's really unfortunate. Really unfortunate.

[Dax Shepard]

Anywho, so I had a time of my life dinner with Vincent.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, Vincent. Friend of the pod.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, man, what a boy. I love him so much. Can I say one more thing?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

We had as much fun with Naomi and Adam as when I used to go to New York. Like in my 30s fun. We ended up in a back elevator, like a service elevator to get out of there. And as we got in there, there was a room service tray, someone's room service tray. And there was a half drank and cup of coffee. And I said to Adam, how much would you pay me to drink this cup of coffee? $5. And as I was saying, would you pay me $5? I just drank this cup of coffee and. Well, okay. You didn't like that story? It was so funny. It felt like I was in seventh grade and he was so. He's putting hand sanitizer on. And I just drank a random person's half cup of coffee. And then I picked up the tray and then what was the item in there? And then I took a scoop of it. It was an old dessert. Yeah, yeah. It was like I was acting like I was back when Aaron and I were causing too much trouble. I couldn't believe how much fun I had out on the town. Like I was in my 30s and then I've been tired for two days.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, you know how I haven't been able to finish a book?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And I have like.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you finish All Fours? You did, right?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, All Fours. That the last book I finished. And I've been reading Intermezzo, Ding, ding ding. Hats, Hat, Riddle that we'll do later. Yeah, I've been reading that since December. And I have like 100 pages left and I just can't do it. Like I can't do it. I stare at it on the nightstand and it has like. It has like.

[Dax Shepard]

It's haunting me.

[Lily Padman]

Wiggles coming out of it, like brown squiggles. I don't want to touch it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

So, you know, I have this block about reading. And then my friend Maddie, who's in town, she recommended a book. So I went to Skylight and I bought it. And then on the way out, there was another book there that I grabbed last minute. Cause it looked fun. I judged a book by. By its cover.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, good.

[Lily Padman]

And I've read 130 pages in two days.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really? Congratulations.

[Lily Padman]

I have high hopes that I'm going to finish it this week.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good.

[Lily Padman]

And I love it.

[Dax Shepard]

What is it?

[Lily Padman]

I think you would like it. Although it's fiction, you don't read too much fiction.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Lily Padman]

But it's called Atavists.

[Dax Shepard]

Atavists.

[Lily Padman]

Atavists. Something.

[Dax Shepard]

Show me the COVID because I want to see what grabbed Your attention. Yeah. It's a word I don't know, I've never heard of. And there's cute little foxes and bunnies on it. And then the name. Millet. Is that the author' name?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Lydia Miller.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a cool name.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And let me tell you, won the Pulitzer. Finalist.

[Dax Shepard]

Finalist.

[Lily Padman]

The word atavism, coined by a botanist and popularized by a criminologist, refers to the resurfacing of a primitive evolutionary trait or urge in a modern being.

[Dax Shepard]

O.

[Lily Padman]

And it's all these short stories, but they're all connect. All the people are connected. And it's such a funny and interesting, Interesting exploration of human behavior.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I would like that.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You would like naughty human behavior?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. I mean, no. Some. Some naughty, some fringe, some. Some horrifying, some beautiful. The gambit.

[Dax Shepard]

Gambit. You say gambit, you really hit that B. I say the gamut.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, no. Am I wrong?

[Dax Shepard]

No, I think it is a camp. The Queen's Gambit. I think it's with a B. I just. I. I don't hit that B, you really nail it. Gambit, Gambit. The whole gamut is what I say. Gamut's also a word too.

[Lily Padman]

Is it the same one?

[Dax Shepard]

A complete range or scope of something.

[Lily Padman]

That's it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, so you're. You've been using the wrong word.

[Jon Bernthal]

Gambit, strategic move, or often in a gamer situation. So I think it is the Queen's Gambit.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so it's a. It's the whole gamut. That's okay. This is great. Real time learning. We claim to love learning, but now we're. Yeah, I don't, like, didn't enjoy that. Learn.

[Lily Padman]

Strategic move, often involving some kind of sacrifice intended to gain a future advantage.

[Dax Shepard]

So then you could say, like, he was running a gambit, meaning some kind of strategy against me.

[Lily Padman]

Chess, politics, business, and even social interactions.

[Dax Shepard]

If people don't watch you on the fact check, they are. They are missing out on 99% of the ride. That look.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God. Anyway, that was. You don't think I've been beat down enough today? But it's all right. It's the. It's the truth. I don't know words.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you know, vestibule. You have an incredible vocabulary.

[Lily Padman]

Anyway, gamut. Gamut runs the gamut.

[Dax Shepard]

That's helpful because I was like, can I really be dropping the B that much?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, okay, some facts. This. This is for Jon Bernthal.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wonderful.

[Lily Padman]

Quaker values. Quaker values, often summarized by the acronym spices, are centered around simplicity, peace, integrity, Community, equality, service and stewardship. These principles guide Quakers lives and their interactions with the world, emphasizing direct spiritual experience, inclusivity, and a commitment to social justice.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, see on them again and let's say what we think our worst two qualities are of that list. Okay, so simplicity, peace, peace, integrity, integrity.

[Lily Padman]

Community, equality, service and stewardship. Something's happening when I'm saying S's recently. Are you hearing it?

[Dax Shepard]

No. What happens?

[Lily Padman]

I'm getting kind of anxious that I'm having. You have a lisp, like something is going on. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Mr. Daggs.

[Jon Bernthal]

Mr. Daggs.

[Lily Padman]

Maybe it's inflamed.

[Dax Shepard]

Spices.

[Lily Padman]

Spices. Okay. What are simplicity?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I would say simplicity is my week. That's weak, right?

[Lily Padman]

Well, I guess, depending on how.

[Dax Shepard]

What aspect of your life are you looking?

[Lily Padman]

Right, right.

[Dax Shepard]

But I don't think I make things simple per se. I think I tend to have a lot of balls in the air all at the same time. Trying to do too many things, go too many places, have too many vehicles.

[Lily Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Trying to live 10 different lives at once, not good at simplicity.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It wouldn't work for me either. I don't even aspire to that one.

[Lily Padman]

No, you should. Quaker values.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't have to love all them, do I? I can just like, aart and then integrity. I. I think I'm mid level there. That's good.

[Lily Padman]

Simplicity, peace, integrity, community, equality, service and stewardship.

[Dax Shepard]

I go peace, probably. Yeah. How about you?

[Lily Padman]

Those are really linked, I would say.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Simplicity and peace.

[Lily Padman]

I think my worst spices are service.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

And maybe stewardship, like you said. Stewardship's kind of like. What is it again? I don't really get it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So it's like you're the steward of your flock, you're the steward of your wealth, you're the steward of your objects. Do you maintain them? Do you cherish them? Do you. Do you take good care of everything that you were kind of gifted and are you responsible with all the stuff that you were gifted?

[Lily Padman]

Well, not objects.

[Dax Shepard]

Not objects.

[Lily Padman]

But if we're talking about. If we're getting more abstract about it. Yes. I think I am a good steward of, like, people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Yes.

[Lily Padman]

But I don't think of objects. But. So, okay, maybe I won't pick that. Maybe simplicity for me, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

I don't live a very simple life.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. I don't want to live. It's. That's. That feels akin to boring.

[Lily Padman]

No, there. There are times, especially since I've become Buddhist, that I. I've had thoughts of what is all this? What is all this. There's so much noise and distraction and it could just be simple.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But I think if you know about yourself. And I've had therapists tell me this and I've had other kind of clinicians tell me this. I am an arousal personality type. Like that is. I love being aroused. So I think it would be. I see the value in it.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I also don't think that's my path.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You know that work.

[Lily Padman]

That's makes sense.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

You're just not going to be a Quaker.

[Dax Shepard]

No, but I like it a lot. If I. Well, it'd be up there. If I'm forced to join some kind of religion. Yeah. This is good. This is where my friend Christine joined. She's very, very intelligent.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. Who was on the class.

[Dax Shepard]

All that sounds vaguely like stoicism to me. By the way.

[Lily Padman]

It also sounds like Buddhism.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

It's all kind of.

[Dax Shepard]

All these things are really.

[Lily Padman]

All the good ones are the same.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you watch Heretic, that movie?

[Lily Padman]

Yes. Oh my God. I've been meaning to bring it up to you. Oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Great. I watched it on the airplane.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, I liked it.

[Dax Shepard]

Me too. I love him.

[Lily Padman]

Me too. Hugh Grant.

[Dax Shepard]

Hugh Grant is so, so skilled.

[Lily Padman]

He really is.

[Dax Shepard]

He's so charming. It's absolutely bonkers.

[Lily Padman]

But he, He's. Yeah, he's a beautifully.

[Dax Shepard]

He's still so good looking. Yeah. It's a great movie.

[Lily Padman]

Great movie about religion.

[Dax Shepard]

Iterations. I keep thinking of the word iterations everywhere I go. I took a long bike ride yesterday and I was just like thinking on iterations. That's a big thing. And theme of the movie.

[Lily Padman]

It's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Points out how many religions had all these same tenants prior to the Judeo. Christian ones.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

But it is a horror movie.

[Dax Shepard]

It is a horror movie.

[Lily Padman]

The girls.

[Jon Bernthal]

I like it though.

[Dax Shepard]

It's my kind of horror movie. It's just creepy.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And suspenseful. It's not like machetes and chainsaws and.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Ghouls and.

[Lily Padman]

And it's, you know, a kind of a crazy person. But his theories aren't that crazy. I mean it's. It's.

[Dax Shepard]

This is consistent with all these things. It's like Nexium's really good until A line in the sand. But also that movie hing on him as an actor because he keeps getting them to stay and quiet their fears. And if it's not Hugh Grant.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like they. That was really cast dependent.

[Lily Padman]

It was the girls there. So it's two girls and him in the whole movie.

[Dax Shepard]

It may turn out to be way smarter than you think. Which I like.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, they were great too. That it was. I highly recommend that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, me too.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, the cast of the class is Andrea Anders. John Lizzy Kaplan, friend of the pod. Jesse Tyler Ferguson, friend of the pod. Heather Golden Hirsch. We haven't met her yet.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Lily Padman]

Sean McGuire. Not quite yet. Jason Ritter, friend of the pod.

[Dax Shepard]

First live show.

[Lily Padman]

Those are. First live show. Those are the regulars that I see. Well, lucy punches in 13 episodes, but it looks like the rest are 19.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. What a cast.

[Lily Padman]

Great cast.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

The current rubles to American dollars, one Russian ruble equals.012 US$100 US is 8403.38 rubles.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So 84 rubles per buck.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. The price of bitcoin today.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, is this is a random bitcoin update.

[Lily Padman]

94180.77. Down. 123.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but that's up. Last time he did it, it was 88.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, so maybe it went on the rebound. Well, no, cuz today it's down negative 123.02.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Lily Padman]

Just so it must have rebounded and then.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a wild ride, this cryptocurrency ride.

[Lily Padman]

It really is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And the stock market tracking it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's very wild. Right too. A lot of wildness out there.

[Lily Padman]

It. There is. I just wanted to shout out his wife who works in a ER trauma center.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh yeah. That's so cool.

[Lily Padman]

It's so cool. It's very er. It's very the pit.

[Dax Shepard]

Uhhuh.

[Lily Padman]

And I. I think that's admirable. Very admirable. And she's probably living simplicity, peace, integrity, community, equality, service and stewardship. All the spot devices.

[Dax Shepard]

Probably. Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And that's it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, thank you.

[Lily Padman]

Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.