Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Keith Payne on the Psychology Behind America's Dangerous Divide

In this insightful episode of Armchair Expert, host Dax Shepard engages in a profound conversation with Keith Payne, a renowned psychology professor from the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Payne, the author of Good Reasonable People: The Psychology Behind America's Dangerous Divide, delves deep into the psychological underpinnings that fuel the current political polarization in the United States.

Understanding Inequality and Its Psychological Impact

Payne begins by distinguishing between absolute poverty and relative inequality, emphasizing that the latter significantly influences individuals' behaviors and societal outcomes. He illustrates this with an airplane boarding example:

Keith Payne [07:13]: "Some airplanes board from the front where you can see the first-class passengers indulging in luxury, while others board from the middle, minimizing the visible disparities. Research shows that planes with more visible inequality experience higher rates of in-flight conflict."

This analogy demonstrates how visible inequalities can trigger feelings of resentment and lead to disruptive behaviors, underscoring the subtle yet pervasive effects of social hierarchies.

Perceived Poverty vs. Actual Poverty

A critical insight Payne shares is the distinction between perceived relative poverty and actual financial hardship. He explains that:

Keith Payne [09:57]: "When people perceive themselves as poorer compared to others, regardless of their actual income, they experience similar negative outcomes to those living in genuine poverty. This perception exacerbates issues like stress, health problems, and reduced life expectancy."

This highlights the psychological strain caused by constant upward comparison, where individuals feel inadequate despite their objective circumstances.

Historical Roots of Modern Political Divides

Payne traces the origins of current political divides back to historical events, particularly the legacy of slavery in the United States. He discusses Abraham Lincoln's map from the 1860 census, which categorized counties based on their reliance on slavery. This historical divide laid the groundwork for persistent racial and socioeconomic disparities that continue to shape political affiliations today.

Keith Payne [60:23]: "Lincoln used the 1860 census to predict which states would secede, but the implications of that map extend far beyond the Civil War, influencing contemporary issues like residential segregation and political alignment."

The Role of Education and Income in Political Alignment

Contrary to common stereotypes, Payne reveals that higher education and income do not uniformly predict political leanings. Specifically:

• Education: Among white voters, those with college degrees are more likely to vote Democrat, while those without are more inclined to vote Republican.
• Income: Conversely, higher-income individuals, regardless of education, tend to vote Republican.

Keith Payne [72:08]: "When we separate education from income, we see that more educated white individuals lean Democratic, but higher income associates with Republican voting. This complexity challenges the simplistic narratives often presented in media."

Psychological Immune System and Rationalization

A pivotal concept discussed is the "psychological immune system," a set of psychological defenses that individuals employ to maintain self-esteem and view themselves as good people despite conflicting information or beliefs.

Keith Payne [36:04]: "The psychological immune system comprises the maneuvers we use to protect our self-esteem and reassure ourselves that we're good, which often involves rationalizing our beliefs and actions."

This mechanism explains why individuals cling to their political identities, often disregarding evidence that contradicts their preconceived notions.

Dehumanization and Its Consequences

The conversation shifts to the alarming trend of dehumanization in political rhetoric. Payne cites historical examples where groups were labeled as non-human, facilitating violence and hatred.

Keith Payne [24:19]: "Dehumanizing language, like calling opponents 'cockroaches' or 'rats,' strips away their humanity, making it psychologically easier to engage in or justify violence against them."

Recent studies further illustrate this phenomenon, revealing that strong partisan identities lead individuals to view members of the opposing party as less human.

Solutions: Empathy and Structural Changes

Towards the end of the discussion, Payne emphasizes the importance of empathy and understanding in bridging political divides. He suggests that recognizing the shared human desire to be good and reasonable can foster more civil and productive conversations.

Keith Payne [82:20]: "If we can realize that both sides are trying to be good, reasonable humans, despite differing beliefs, it sets the stage for respectful dialogue and mutual understanding."

Additionally, Payne advocates for structural changes to reduce inequality, such as universal access to higher education and policies that ensure upward mobility is attainable for all, thereby mitigating the psychological impacts of relative inequality.

Conclusion

Keith Payne's expertise sheds light on the intricate psychological factors driving America's political polarization. By unraveling the roles of perceived inequality, historical legacies, social identities, and psychological defenses, Payne provides a comprehensive framework for understanding and addressing the deep-rooted divisions in American society. His insights call for both personal empathy and systemic reforms to create a more unified and equitable nation.

For those interested in exploring these themes further, Keith Payne's book, Good Reasonable People: The Psychology Behind America's Dangerous Divide, offers an in-depth analysis of these critical issues.

Notable Quotes:

• Keith Payne [07:13]: "Some airplanes board from the front where you can see the first-class passengers indulging in luxury, while others board from the middle, minimizing the visible disparities..."
• Keith Payne [09:57]: "When people perceive themselves as poorer compared to others, regardless of their actual income, they experience similar negative outcomes to those living in genuine poverty."
• Keith Payne [36:04]: "The psychological immune system comprises the maneuvers we use to protect our self-esteem and reassure ourselves that we're good..."
• Keith Payne [24:19]: "Dehumanizing language... strips away their humanity, making it psychologically easier to engage in or justify violence against them."
• Keith Payne [82:20]: "If we can realize that both sides are trying to be good, reasonable humans, despite differing beliefs, it sets the stage for respectful dialogue and mutual understanding."

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand the psychological foundations of political divides and looking for pathways to overcome them.