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Dax Shepard
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. And today we have Lena Waithe. Oh, I love Lena Waithe. She's an actor, a producer and a screenwriter. She created the Shy. She was on Master of None.
Monica Padman
We loved that show.
Dax Shepard
Yes. Queen and Slim boomerang them. This is the final season of the Shy, now streaming on Paramount. Plus, you know Lena, you're gonna really fall in love with her if you've never heard her chat. She's just is sweet and wonder.
Monica Padman
That's right.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Please enjoy Lena Waithe. We are supported by Quints Monica. We love quints.
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Monica Padman
Totally. It's less pressure, but more like readiness.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Like you've been sitting on an idea or a project or even just a perspective you care about, and now you're like, maybe this deserves to exist somewhere outside of my own head.
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Dax Shepard
Yeah. And Wabiwab is not trying to spend 40 hours figuring out web design.
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Lena Waithe
He's an upchurch. Holy options.
Monica Padman
No, no, you were great.
Dax Shepard
Were you offered enough options? Because look how many I have.
Lena Waithe
I know. That's how I usually am. That's how I usually am.
Dax Shepard
I just did.
Lena Waithe
I just did something.
Dax Shepard
Oh. Cause you brought her a cream top, and she was like, I'm not with that much dairy.
Lena Waithe
Coffee.
Dax Shepard
Don't drink coffee.
Monica Padman
What about tea?
Lena Waithe
Sometimes.
Dax Shepard
Is it caffeine in general you don't get down with?
Lena Waithe
I don't know if I need any kind of caffeine. He's like. He's already walked in. He's already like, you're talking to the wrong guy.
Dax Shepard
Caffeine, caffeine, caffeine, caffeine.
Monica Padman
He doesn't need it, but he drinks it.
Lena Waithe
I can't do it. Yeah. I don't want to be dependent on.
Monica Padman
It's fun. It's something to look forward to.
Dax Shepard
Do you identify at all with the many, many things that come across your Instagram about adhd? Because for me, I'm like, ooh, yeah,
Lena Waithe
I don't have adhd. It's interesting. The person who I share my life,
Dax Shepard
she says she's already on here, so I don't know what to tell you.
Lena Waithe
I know, I know. I like to watch my podcast, so I like. I watch y' all as well. I'm watching the podcast, like, what's on my phone? And I'm like, watching a Kim Burns documentary at the same time. It's like, I'm doing that. And she's just like, how. How are you able to do this and follow what's happening here in this conversation and listen to this docum? I don't know. It's the thing.
Dax Shepard
My question is, do you think you are consuming both at, like, what percentage?
Lena Waithe
That's a good question.
Dax Shepard
Because, you know, they've debunked the myth of multitasking. Right? Like, there's been enormous Studies done where they measure the time spent and then they have proven that if you had just done one at a time and then the next one, like, this is already kind of known. But I'm not saying that's the case here. I'm just wondering what percentage you think you're thinking it is.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. You know, the truth is, here's the thing. I will sometimes say, okay, put the phone down. Let me focus. I think it's really about not just attention span, which we all have to work at expanding. We have to actively do that. But I think that it's also about giving something your undivided attention.
Dax Shepard
That could almost be your rating system. Like, if you had a public platform where you rated things, it would be like, what thing did you shut down all things for? So this season, what showed you were like, you know what, we're putting this over here.
Lena Waithe
The thing that I'm like, really locked in is half man, half man.
Dax Shepard
What one is that?
Lena Waithe
That's the gentleman who did Baby Reindeer.
Dax Shepard
Oh, oh, oh, oh.
Lena Waithe
This is his sophomore effort, hbo.
Dax Shepard
It just came out.
Lena Waithe
Just came out. There's two episodes up right now. I think both are pretty exquisite.
Dax Shepard
Exquisite, nice word.
Lena Waithe
You know, Baby reindeer locked us all in in a real way. But I think. And I got to tell him this, I was really grateful to be able to do that at the Globes. I stopped him and I said, you made me want to be a more vulnerable artist.
Monica Padman
Oh, that's a lovely compliment.
Dax Shepard
No, when he goes into the whole thing about he's in that fucked up, crazy zone of drugs and fucking and that whole. I was like, oh, wow, man. I'm so impressed. He's going here as like an addict. I was like, oh, yes.
Monica Padman
And it's true.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, well, we're all addicted to something. Our vices sometimes look different and some are more socially acceptable than others. You know, it's like cheating is a vice. Being unfaithful, I think can be a vice.
Dax Shepard
We'd say that's low acceptance, right? Yeah, we would agree.
Lena Waithe
Correct.
Dax Shepard
Universally reviled, universally practiced. Estelle.
Monica Padman
Esther. Esther Perel.
Dax Shepard
Esther Perel. I fucked it up on both sides.
Lena Waithe
You just, like brought her all together.
Dax Shepard
I made her a one name artist.
Lena Waithe
You're like, look, let me glob you here.
Dax Shepard
Let me make you worldwide.
Lena Waithe
I got you. But also, it's like shopping is a vice. Socially acceptable.
Dax Shepard
Social media is a vice.
Lena Waithe
Absolutely. But socially acceptable in a way. Because the funny thing is people on their phones posting on social. Why you shouldn't be on social. And Folks are watching it, like, yeah, but I'm getting this message on the very thing you're telling me to get off of.
Dax Shepard
We had the CEO of Instagram on, and he gave this.
Lena Waithe
Liv. Liv, who's my guy with the glasses who always send in a thing about the updates and stuff. Who talks about that?
Dax Shepard
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's our guy, Adam Mosseri.
Lena Waithe
Okay.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And I love him.
Lena Waithe
I like him a lot.
Dax Shepard
And he's so thoughtful.
Lena Waithe
Very like.
Dax Shepard
He's the dude you should pray is running that thing. Yeah. And we have him on. We have this great, thoughtful thing, and I challenge him on every damn thing.
Lena Waithe
Wow.
Dax Shepard
And people are on the goddamn app telling me, how could you platform him? You can't support this. And I'm like, you're on the app. You cannot have this position.
Lena Waithe
Wow. Yes, of course. Because they have to rationalize.
Dax Shepard
They're on there just to shut it down. I think in their mind, they're gonna
Lena Waithe
take down the very thing that they're helping to keep alive.
Dax Shepard
Okay. So we love the new show. Madman Horse Man.
Monica Padman
Half man, half man. Get too much coffee.
Lena Waithe
It's too much coffee. I just really like that show a lot in terms of how he's exploring masculinity and what relationships can look like between two men that don't necessarily have to be. Both of them have to be queer. But I think he also was exploring versions of that in Baby Reindeer as well. But I think he definitely is sort of an artist that's making television in a. That is forcing us to pay attention in a way that I don't know if we always do. The fact that this was something that was not proper America. Netflix. This was Netflix that was, like, coming out of the uk and he said to me, he was like, I don't think Netflix thought it was gonna be this huge hit. That speaks to the disconnect between, I think, streamers and audiences.
Monica Padman
I know.
Lena Waithe
And it's sort of like, what do audiences actually want? What do they need?
Dax Shepard
This is the beauty, though. There's downsides to the streamers. You have a show that's about to be on for eight seasons. If you had that on network TV in 1980, you'd be buying a bas.
Lena Waithe
I lived through the whole thing.
Monica Padman
Okay? Exactly.
Dax Shepard
The one upside of it is, yeah, they're gonna make Baby Reindeer.
Lena Waithe
That's Netflix.
Dax Shepard
No one there believes in it, but they're gonna make it because they're gonna make 350 shows this year.
Lena Waithe
Right.
Dax Shepard
And then that does give the opportunity for all these things to Pop Beef comes out of nowhere, and all these shows come out of nowhere that no one was betting on in, like, a network way. And that deserves acknowledgment. Like, it's taken a toll on a lot of aspects of this industry, but that one part is amazing. It's like they switched a niche, and then niche became mega hits sometimes.
Lena Waithe
No, that's true. And it's about, like, what becomes mega hits. Why does it become a mega hit? I'm always fascinated by that. Are we creating stars anymore or just sort of depending on the ones that already have the money to carry a show that might not be that great?
Monica Padman
Well, stars also are becoming stars in a different way. Like, not just because they're on TV or in movies or in music. I was looking at all the pictures from the Met gala this morning, and I was like, I know. I'm, like, getting old.
Lena Waithe
You're like, who are these people?
Monica Padman
But I don't know anything. Any of these people.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. It's like being 30, watching a billboard Awards.
Monica Padman
I know.
Lena Waithe
I was like, wait, I don't know anyone.
Monica Padman
Is it me or is it that the stars are from TikTok. From things that I'm not on, but they're not on my tv, I don't think.
Lena Waithe
Right. I think the word star is sort of becoming interesting. The word celebrity, public figure. What does that mean? Because you can become a celebrity in a week, but then you're a. Has been. That never was in, like, a year.
Monica Padman
It's so fleeting.
Lena Waithe
I know. You're like.
Monica Padman
You're like, you've done good. You've made entertained back and forth.
Dax Shepard
We have this friend. I love him so much. Gordon Keith. He's on a popular Dallas sports radio show, and he has been for, like, 25 years. He was visiting last time. We were talking about AI and everything, and he said to Chris and I, he goes, you know, you guys might be among the last mortal stars.
Lena Waithe
Mortal?
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Like, the future stars will be AI. Like, you might be in history. The last of the mortal stars. And Chris goes, oh, my God, that's so funny.
Lena Waithe
The last of the mortal stars, the final season. And one of the strongest seasons of the Comeback is telling us the future, which the Comeback has always done.
Dax Shepard
That's your first acting job, too, right?
Lena Waithe
That was technically, yes. Aziz always starts to take credit for my first tv. I'm like, actually, Michael Patrick King, Lisa Kudjo, they threw me in there one episode. Very grateful to Allison Jones who discovered me.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. What did they predict this season?
Lena Waithe
That AI is going to take over all of the shit. They've been such ahead of the game. And the Comeback is just sort of one of those great shows. I was honored to be asked by New York Times about what are the 100 most important television. It was a very tricky task. This is not definitive list. They just came out with 100 greatest songwriters ever movies and all that kind of stuff. So I was honored to be at the table for the television one. And I was really happy to speak about the Comeback because it was on when I was in college the first season, and I could see in that moment what they were doing with comedy. And that was so unique and so special because I was already liking Sex and the City. I was already a Friends fan. But to see these two brains come together and make this show about an aging actress in Hollywood and what she had and the fact that they were ahead of the curve in terms of reality television in that first season and then in the second season getting into the premium cable type thing and what that would ultimately be. And for this third and final season, I mean, the seasons are spread out between like a decade, which is so brilliant because the first season was so beloved. And when we talked about it that 10 years later, HBO's like, yeah, do a second season. And now 10 years later, they're doing the third and final. And it is this sort of trifecta of Hollywood and what happens to it. And I'm like, All About Eve. You know, it's sort of, oh, this is what happens. There's a person that's there that we look at and we love, and then she. She eventually gets put out to pasture and there's someone that comes in to replace. And it's cyclical. It's sort of telling you you can only be on the mountaintop for so long because you can't breathe the air up there. So you have to start climbing a new mountain or you'll die at the top of the one you made it to.
Dax Shepard
Everything's driven by young people. This is also a reality. I'll talk to young people. I have a 13 year old. We have friends. The people that they don't know break your heart. I mean, literally, the people, they don't
Lena Waithe
know the movies, they haven't seen the movies. They're like Shawshank Redemption. What?
Dax Shepard
That wouldn't even. No, I wouldn't even take that swing.
Lena Waithe
You would say, okay. I mean, Blazing Saddles, like, what are we doing?
Dax Shepard
That one's probably a no go for most young people.
Lena Waithe
What are we doing?
Dax Shepard
What's the bridge.
Lena Waithe
What's the bridge? It is up to the parents. The parents got to get in there. Like, my mom made sure I like Prince.
Dax Shepard
Right. Although that's not a hard job.
Lena Waithe
It was. I didn't see it at first when I was a young person, really in the car, couldn't hear it. I'm in college in Chicago. He comes to the city. She makes me go. It's one of the things I'm very grateful for. She's like, you gotta come to the concert. I said, I don't like, I don't hear it. I go, I'm like baptized. I'm like, oh, got it. And then I go out and buy every record. Which took me like a long time because he was just releasing music every week since he came out.
Dax Shepard
I guess you're nine years younger than me, so that explains a little bit. I couldn't have not loved Prince. You know, I was probably in fifth grade when Purple Rain came out. You were either into Michael Jackson or Prince. And to me, Prince was dangerous. And I liked him. I was like, okay, that guy's dangerous. I'm into him.
Lena Waithe
See, like, Michael was like, perfect for him. Like, this is going to sound so wrong, but he's perfect for like if you're a kid. Yes, sorry.
Dax Shepard
I know, I know, I know. You don't want to talk about your partner, but not use that. And Michael Jackson's perfect. If you're a kid, you tell your problem says good news and bad news. We did not talk about
Lena Waithe
if you're a kid. Like Michael Jackson.
Dax Shepard
No, I know. It is.
Lena Waithe
It is magic.
Monica Padman
I mean, there is a reason he is so complicated. He was half.
Dax Shepard
He seems trapped in his smoky.
Lena Waithe
Robinson has this really great quote. He said Michael Jackson had to be a man when he was a kid. And when he became a man, he was a kid again.
Monica Padman
Yeah, yeah.
Dax Shepard
I co sign on all that.
Lena Waithe
What?
Dax Shepard
I don't co sign on that. That is somehow a justification for the behavior that followed.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think he was justified.
Dax Shepard
He was just like.
Lena Waithe
That was an observation.
Dax Shepard
I think we say that. Like, I definitely do think that's right. I. His childhood was stolen from him and then he lived it out as an adult in Neverland Ranch.
Monica Padman
I mean, literally creating.
Dax Shepard
But let's that not take him off the hook.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
The one take a big digression.
Lena Waithe
Perfect.
Dax Shepard
So I had never met you. I had seen you on Master of None.
Lena Waithe
Yes.
Dax Shepard
I liked you on Master of None.
Lena Waithe
Thank you.
Dax Shepard
I loved the Thanksgiving episode. I remember I had no idea you were a writer. And in fact, not till much later. I thought maybe that was your first time writing. Like, I didn't know your history.
Lena Waithe
That was my fear, actually, about doing the show because I was like, oh, is these people gonna think I'm an actor who's trying to write? But actually, I'm a writer that you want to act.
Monica Padman
Yes.
Lena Waithe
He's like, right, yeah, I don't care.
Dax Shepard
You're already a staff writer on Bones at that point.
Lena Waithe
Right, right. Yeah. I did that cause I needed a job.
Dax Shepard
A few other shows. I met you in real life. We were at this event. And I'll add, I'm so excited you're a 2pm interview, because that means Delta will be here when we get done.
Lena Waithe
Nice.
Dax Shepard
So I was with Delta when we matched. And something happened between you two. I don't want to speak for you, but instant. There was an explosion of charisma and connection.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, instant.
Dax Shepard
I think the first thing she said to you is, I love your voice or something.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And then I saw this side of you, and she has that effect on people. Not that it took a lot, but I saw a side of you immediately that was like, oh, I love this person. I gotta say, of all the stop and chats I've had in my life, I ranked that very high. And like, oh, yeah, I really love this person. Wow.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
It was a very memorable hour and a half hang.
Lena Waithe
No, it was clear that you're raising kids that know who they are. That was, I think, very interesting to be talking to a young kid who was almost like, fully formed.
Dax Shepard
She's probably nine then.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, right. That's why it throws you dumped. Because I'm going like, what? You know, to be a girl with a husky voice and have one. Her life. There was sort of this thing of like, her having, like, almost her own sort of voice. Her scratchy voice.
Dax Shepard
Yes. Hers was real scratchy then, too. Yeah.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
So sort of like the two girls with cool voices were chatting like.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, we see each other. We see each other.
Dax Shepard
Honestly. I hear you.
Lena Waithe
I hear you literally and figuratively. It was a lovely meeting.
Dax Shepard
It was lovely. I really enjoyed learning about you today. Starts in Chicago. Yeah. 1984, May 17th. We're about to have a birthday.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. Damn right. About to have my Jackie Robinson year. About to be 42.
Dax Shepard
How do you feel about aging? You're very accomplished.
Lena Waithe
That helps, like, have an Emmy, I think. I. I love it because, you know, it's interesting. Oprah did this really interesting episode back in the day with These amazing women who kind of were known for being beauties in their heyday. Like, it was Diane Carroll. Like, Lauren the model.
Dax Shepard
Nicole.
Lena Waithe
No, no, no, no. Lauren. I'm forgetting. But she was like a model with a gap tooth or whatever. But she just had these women on there who were just really known for their beauty. And she asked them what they feared the most, and they all said aging. Oprah was kind of taken aback by that because Oprah said, that's not a thing that scares me. And Oprah, in that moment, literally is having this light bulb moment in front of people. She's saying, o think it's because I'm not worried about a beauty type of thing fading.
Monica Padman
Yes.
Dax Shepard
That's not what her value proposition was.
Lena Waithe
That's not where my value was.
Dax Shepard
So black people age better.
Lena Waithe
Well, this is true.
Dax Shepard
This is true.
Lena Waithe
Something in the deal.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, absolutely.
Monica Padman
Oh, yeah. Don't get us.
Dax Shepard
There's very few perks, but that's one of them.
Lena Waithe
You have to deal with some shit. But also, I'm a person in an interesting way that doesn't concern myself with the male gaze.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lena Waithe
And so there's this level of I don't need to look. Look younger than I am. I don't need to appeal to a certain audience. I just want to get wiser and evolve and grow and learn and know something more today that I did yesterday.
Dax Shepard
There's a lot of factors, too. I would argue, and correct me if I'm wrong, the older black woman has a matriarchal position that's very cherished and valued. I know you lived with Grandma. Right. At some point. Right. Grandma means a lot.
Monica Padman
True.
Dax Shepard
Also, knowing you're aging into a role of great relevance and purpose versus a lot of the white ladies are just thrown out the pasture.
Lena Waithe
Malachi. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dax Shepard
So I think there's a lot of different things in the mix.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. I think to me, it's just whatever somebody says, oh, I hate getting older. I would say, what's the alternative?
Monica Padman
Yeah, exactly.
Lena Waithe
It's better than the alternative, for sure.
Monica Padman
But it's funny that you bring up the male gaze part, because we just had this crazy experience last week where we interviewed some of the listeners, and we had this man on to tell a story, and I was like, oh, my God, he's so hot. He graduated from the same college as me. And I was like, I graduated in 2009. When did you graduate? And he graduated in 2021. And I was like, you had a moment. Oh, my God. I Had like a real. I'm old. I'm. I guess a cougar. I hated it. And I don't ever walk around thinking that. I never walk around thinking I'm old. It was because I'm in front of this young, hot guy.
Dax Shepard
She's 53, by the way. I don't know if you know, she didn't say her age.
Monica Padman
Fast math.
Lena Waithe
Okay.
Monica Padman
I'm 38.
Lena Waithe
You're killing.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, you're crushing. I was pumped. I was like, oh, good, we're in a phase where she finally, like, is into a younger dude. Like, let's get on with that.
Lena Waithe
I mean.
Dax Shepard
And that's not where it went.
Monica Padman
No. It just made me feel so old and irrelevant. And I was like, oh, wow. I normally never feel that way in life. I'm pretty confident. But then in juxtaposition to this, young guys, when you say male gaze, there is something very real about that.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. Like, I'm not really concerned about that.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
I feel like the door is open for me to tackle something that's so dangerous to tackle. It is funny that you say, like, I'm not concerned with the male gaze. And I gotta say, leading into meeting you, I think the reason I was shocked we got along so instantly. Well, by my estimation, was like, I'm nervous around lesbians because. Because I'm so used to my value proposition being you might like me. And so, like, for me to enter a situation where it's like, I know you're not gonna like me, capital L like me. And I have to confront how much capital l like me means to me.
Lena Waithe
That's real.
Dax Shepard
And how much of my own personal self esteem and value comes from capital L like me. Do you like me?
Monica Padman
Attraction.
Dax Shepard
And so I know, oh, yeah, you're never gonna like me. I start there, which it fucks me up a little bit.
Lena Waithe
Oh, that's real.
Dax Shepard
And then a lot of your art is. Is deeply activist oriented. You have a lot of causes you care about. And then so my next insecurity goes like, she's gonna look at me and be like, this dude doesn't give a fuck about anything. I go in with these two insecurities and then I start talking to you and I go, no, I think she likes me. Maybe my capital L like me, but I can live with this.
Monica Padman
And is that enough is lowercase L enough?
Dax Shepard
It totally is. And I think everything can get so easily misread. I'm sure there's some lesbians who are like, oh, he don't like me. Because he only likes people he can fuck. And I'm doing the opposite thing. And neither's true.
Lena Waithe
No. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
I can't say I've had a lot of lesbian friends. And I have to acknowledge it's gotta be some part of my own insecurity or. So I feel like, oh, I'm invisible to this person or something.
Lena Waithe
That's super interesting. A couple things, like, I'm so scared saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is like, really great. First thing I want to touch on is the art being rooted in activism. And the truth is, is I don't think of myself as a activist in a way. I think of myself as a human who studies human behavior. And I try to, like, cap to look at, I think, because a lot of stuff I'm dealing with is black folk. It can be sort of categorized as, okay, this is what this group of people is dealing with and going through, especially with a movie like Queen and Slim or something like them. Covenant, which I produced, I didn't write or direct on that, but that was a black person who I believe identifies as queer, but he was trying to explore something there through that. And Queen of Slim, I was exploring something about our society. And then you look at something like the Shy, which is sort of exploring just sort of life. Middle class Chicagoans, but. Because if it's people who are part of a marginalized community, it sometimes can be seen as, oh, this is a political thing, because we don't have any choice for it to be anything other than that. But then you think about Thanksgiving episode. It's like so many straight white dudes come up to me, tell me how much they love it.
Dax Shepard
Oh, I love it.
Lena Waithe
And that was a breakthrough for me because I used to think of it as the black episode of Master of None.
Dax Shepard
Oh, interesting. This is gonna be.
Lena Waithe
Oh, we gonna have a black episode of these. Oh, cool. Oh, yeah. Okay. A gay black episode.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, yeah.
Lena Waithe
And I just thought it was for the gay black folk. Gay black folk love the Thanksgiving episode.
Dax Shepard
Sure. I think everyone loves the.
Lena Waithe
But that's the thing.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, yeah.
Lena Waithe
That's the trick is that, yes, it's specific, but it's also universal.
Dax Shepard
So, you know, I don't think you're preachy. I think you're telling the stories that are true to you. You're supposed to write what you know.
Lena Waithe
Exactly.
Dax Shepard
And you are in these two groups that inevitably are gonna seem political.
Lena Waithe
Oh, absolutely. But for me, as an artist, my goal is to not separate myself from the things that make me who I am, but to get folks who don't look like me, love like me, come from the walk of life that I do. To be able to look at the work and not only see it through a particular lens, to say, hey, you can see yourself in this character. It's the way I see myself in the lead character in Baby Reindeer.
Dax Shepard
Well, I was gonna say, even when you listed the shows that you like right now, of course those are the shows that you like.
Lena Waithe
Some people might go, oh, I'm surprised that she's watching that show.
Dax Shepard
Oh, really?
Lena Waithe
Yes. As a black woman, they like, oh, you not just watching Power and Girlfriends.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Lena Waithe
You know, say nothing. Wrongdoing show. Yeah. I did actually watch the Hoosier. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
I also love Bait. Wanna shout out Riz Ahmed on Amazon? If you haven't seen it, check it out. Beautiful show. He gonna be mad you ain't seen it. Look something. But at the end of the day, it's like, so.
Monica Padman
Exactly.
Dax Shepard
Everyone's in trouble.
Lena Waithe
How am I assuming you seen Bait?
Monica Padman
Right? Exactly.
Lena Waithe
But I'm also like, why do you not see Bates?
Monica Padman
What issues do you have?
Dax Shepard
Let's just start with everyone's in trouble.
Monica Padman
I know.
Lena Waithe
To go to the thing about, like, me and straight men, I feel like I have really great relationships with straight dudes. And a big part of that, I think, is because sex is not on the table. So they don't feel this need to perform because nothing's coming from it. And I think that's why I also have very interesting relationships with straight women, because that gets a little dicey. Because it's a level of, huh, you're kind of masc, but you're a woman. And I kind of like this energy. I'm kind of confused. It can get a little tricky. I'm going like, are we cool? Are you hitting on me? You are, but I don't know what's going on. And so I just hear what you're saying in terms of, oh, but if you couldn't like me, then what's my end? What am I doing?
Dax Shepard
What's my value to anybody who wouldn't like me?
Lena Waithe
Right. And the truth is, it's like, there's so much value because that isn't all that you have to offer me.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, I know it's stupid as I'm saying it, but it is the emotion I have. Right. That I have to think through.
Lena Waithe
That's super interesting.
Dax Shepard
I go like, oh, I've got nothing to offer this person. They're not going to want to interact with me. And I got to step over that?
Lena Waithe
No, I think that's super fascinating to me because I think for me, when I approach, I'm just. I'm curious, what's the energy gonna be? I'm more curious about that. Cause my brain isn't always there. I more so wanna know, well, who are you? What's the thing? The word I dislike the most is assume. Anytime someone says it, what follows it is sort of saying. So what you're saying is you didn't ask, you didn't go to the source. You came up with a narrative for yourself about a person. And by the way, there are people that have narratives about me that are completely based on nothing.
Dax Shepard
I think I had created one. She won't like me. She'll think I don'. About anything. Why would she want to talk to me? I'm talking to her. Wow, she seems to like me. She's smiling.
Lena Waithe
That's what a lot of our society is doing right now. Which is why I think it looks the way it does. We assume things about each other rather than having that moment of, like, talking to each other and really hearing each other. Because even, like what you just said, I try to be an active listener. That's why I was like. I heard a couple of things I said. I was like, okay, I want to address the activist thing. I was like, Cause that's really interesting to me. It's not combative, but it's sort of like, oh, huh, that's an interesting thing.
Dax Shepard
I know that word's dicey, like, for me to even say activist. I know that's a loaded word.
Lena Waithe
No, it's not at all. But to me, it's like, I get what you mean. It doesn't seem like an odd thing at all what you said, But I think for me, it's helpful to hear and to kind of go, okay, I see how the work can be perceived that way. And because I have no control over how people perceive the work. But I think for me, as an artist, it's always about, okay, that's how it can be seen. Okay, cool. And how do I continue to make work that no one feels ostracized from it? Cause some people may go, I don't want to work because that's active. I don't want. I want to just kind of chill.
Dax Shepard
I don't want to be taught a lesson.
Lena Waithe
Exactly. And sometimes work, especially by women or women of color or if you have to add queer, there's this idea, this assumption that you're gonna be taught there's
Dax Shepard
gonna be A moral here.
Lena Waithe
This bout to be woke versus just. Oh, that was just kind of funny and human and grounded.
Monica Padman
It can be a burden because even if you're saying something or you're making a piece of art that a white woman made, straight people might not be like, it's an allegory or it's a lesson or it's trying to teach me. That's part of the thing. I mean, sometimes we'll get in like debates here, but if I'm saying something, it's kind of like I'm speaking on behalf of always. And I'm not always. I'm just saying what I think. Right.
Lena Waithe
But you have to always like identify that you say, I'm just talking from my point of view. I don't represent everyone I know.
Monica Padman
And then that's exhausting. It is. Exactly. No one else has to do it.
Lena Waithe
I know. If you don't do that, then people be like, oh, so you speaking for us? You speaking for me? It's just like, oh, no, I'm not. I'm speaking for myself. And that's a part of the way people do interviews. If you pay attention to it, they're like, I'm just talking about me. No offense to this person. No, that I don't wanna.
Dax Shepard
I'm sorry.
Lena Waithe
I'm married. In a healthy marriage. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because people at home are gonna going like, well, fuck you. He's waiting for us.
Monica Padman
Like, what?
Lena Waithe
It's like, Jesus, what crap.
Monica Padman
No, it got really out of control.
Lena Waithe
No, but anyway. But I like you. I have to get to know you. I have to meet you met your kid. Yeah, Yeah.
Dax Shepard
I like you so much too. I did immediately. I didn't let any of that get in the way. It was just like passing thoughts as I consumed your art.
Lena Waithe
We're programmed.
Dax Shepard
So you were 0 to 12, Southside of Chicago.
Lena Waithe
Correct.
Dax Shepard
And what was that like? Mom and dad divorced at three.
Lena Waithe
At two, dad died suddenly when I was 14, but I only saw him from like till I was like seven. And then like seven years kind of went by, he was gone.
Dax Shepard
Was he an addict?
Lena Waithe
Well, you know, it's crazy because I want to get his death certificate because I didn't know anything about how he died and he was actually killed by someone, but it was sort of in self defense, so it wasn't a situation like that. But the coroner did show that there was cocaine in his system. There is a history of addiction.
Dax Shepard
My dad loved cocaine. And then I grew up to love it too. It smells so good.
Lena Waithe
This is why my grandmother told me. She said, the grandma's a gonna say, it's in your blood, so be mindful, be thoughtful. A lot of us kind of got told.
Dax Shepard
They told me that too.
Lena Waithe
Oh, shit, you didn't.
Dax Shepard
They told me.
Lena Waithe
Let me just see what's up.
Dax Shepard
I gotta find out for myself. Oh, they were right.
Lena Waithe
Did you see the Chevy Chase doc?
Dax Shepard
Yes.
Lena Waithe
Jesus Christ.
Dax Shepard
I would love your analysis.
Lena Waithe
I thought it was quite fascinating. I thought it was quite human. I'm a person that's done a documentary about a person who was no longer here. Being Marie Tyler Moore. That can be a little bit trickier. I don't say there's more pressure, but her widower was kind enough to give us the life rights and the space to tell that story. It took us about five years just going through a lot of interviews and things like that. Obviously written a memoir when I was much younger and just obsessed with the Mary Tyler Moore show and. And Dick Van Dyke and all that kind of stuff. But it's tough to kind of create a portrait of a person. And obviously that person is still here and he's being interviewed. Yeah. And, you know, I've heard the stories. I think a lot of us have.
Dax Shepard
And they're in the dock.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, exactly.
Dax Shepard
It's pretty unflinching. On his many, many.
Lena Waithe
Absolutely.
Dax Shepard
Outbursts and shittiness.
Lena Waithe
I learned a lot of things that I didn't know, which I think is the point of a documentary.
Dax Shepard
Childhood didn't sound great.
Lena Waithe
No, not at all. It's tricky because it's not about making excuses, but rather about giving you context for a person.
Dax Shepard
It's an explanation, not an excuse. That's what I like to say. Those are different things.
Lena Waithe
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ye. I think the thing with Chevy that got me the Most was the 50th SNL bit. To watch that and to see him still be affected.
Dax Shepard
Can't get out of his own way
Monica Padman
for people who haven't seen it.
Lena Waithe
Well, I also don't want to.
Dax Shepard
Okay, no, no, you're not gonna ruin
Lena Waithe
me checking it out. But as people know that there was a 50th anniversary special on SNL with, like, everybody that ever pretty much touched it and a lot of the people that were important to the show. By the way, Lorne Michaels is interviewed as well, which I thought was really important. But Chevy talked about not being in the show.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
And even though he was very much part of the origin of the show. I mean, that's not disputed. But also he came back and hosted. It wasn't the best energy for, I think, either party when he came back to host. And sometimes your reputation, you leave a mark that can stick with people. And who knows what happened. That's the thing. He doesn't know what happened. Lauren kind of is Lauren sort of. He's sort of. I don't know. We try. But also, Martin Short said something really interesting. He was like, Billy Crystal was there as well. He didn't speak either. So what are you gonna say? So Martin Short definitely gave some context to the situation. But you know what I appreciate is that Chevy Chase said, like, I was hurt by it.
Dax Shepard
He was hurt. He reaped what he sowed.
Lena Waithe
What I respect is vulnerability. I respect the honesty. The toughest thing for people to do is just to say that hurt my feelings.
Monica Padman
Yes, a little bit.
Dax Shepard
Do you know where my compassion came from?
Lena Waithe
Where?
Dax Shepard
It'd be one thing if he was so happy and unaffected by the wreckage he seemed to be incapable of not creating. Right. Like if he was sitting there high on his horse, feeling great about it all and enjoying life and feeling good, he is a victim of it all. He's very uncomfortable. He's in such discomfort. It's very obvious. That's true. And so I look at it and I go like, yeah, he was terrible to a lot of people and primarily himself. And I have compassion for that. That kind of self destructive. I can relate to it. And then also these crazy glimpses of him where he's still a fucking genius. Like just him interacting with the dude with the flowers. And I shared. So I'm lying back from the NBC upfronts and they put me in a car with him. I've never met him.
Lena Waithe
Oh, my God.
Dax Shepard
We're sitting in a car together and we pull up to the hotel and there's 600 people out in front of the hotel to see stars. And when he gets out, everyone's so excited, right? And he's trying to walk through this crowd and goes, oh, yes, I'm feeling much better now, thank you for asking. And keeps moving. And I was like, feeling much better now, thank you for asking, is one of the funniest things I've ever heard. And that's also part of him. Right.
Lena Waithe
But I think that's. It's sort of a portrait of a person.
Dax Shepard
Stay tuned for more armchair experts if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking what the warning light means before pulling out of your driveway. You Absolutely. Convince yourself it was probably just a sensor thing right up until you were standing on the side of the road waiting for a tow. Yeah. Checking first is the right move. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need need it. Add an Allstate roadside plan today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary. Insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club Incorporated and Allstate affiliate. We get support from Helix. I have to say the Helix is the greatest mattress. First of all. The way it just gets shipped to your house. It's so easy. You're not going to a store. The fact that you can pick out your sleep temp to match you. Yes. It's so customizable and so darn comfortable.
Monica Padman
I've had a Helix mattress for years now. A long time.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
And it has really held up. It's still so comfortable. Still matches my exact needs. I'm a side sleeper.
Dax Shepard
I'm all over the map in Nashville. I have the midnight luxe. When I'm going to Nashville. I look forward to sleeping on that. Bad. And that's the thing about Helix. It's not just comfortable on night one. It stays that way. They have over 20 models, so you're not just picking a mattress off a shelf. You're matching to how you actually sleep. Side sleeper, hot sleeper, bad back. Whatever it is, there's a specific model built for that.
Monica Padman
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Dax Shepard
Yeah. As you get older.
Monica Padman
Me too. And it makes a difference.
Dax Shepard
It's really one of those things where you don't realize how much better sleep can be until you're actually getting it consistently. Go to helixsleep.comarmchair for 20% off. That's helixsleep.com armchair for 20% off. Helixsleep.com armchair this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer's one of those seasons where there's this pressure to be on all the time. Say yes to everything, Pack the calendar, and then you end up more burnt out than when it's time started.
Monica Padman
Yeah. There's a real difference between surviving a summer and actually thriving in one.
Dax Shepard
I'm feeling it right now. It's approaching. And I have 90 things I insist I have to do on this little tiny sliver of time.
Monica Padman
And yeah, it gets a little stressful, stressing you out. Well, it really helps to have someone else in the game to help you get through it.
Dax Shepard
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Dax Shepard
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Lena Waithe
What I love about those documentaries, adding my own to it, you know, with Mary Tyler Moore, is that she's the woman that could turn the world on with her smile. But she also was an alcoholic and dealt with a lot of death in her family. And her son has an accidental suicide and he was in his twenties. And then she also dated ordinary people before that and then experienced it in real life. She went through a ton, but was sort of the Jackie O of television of her time. And so I think ultimately when you're trying to paint a portrait of someone, there's a lot of colors you have to use and you have to really let people speak to their experiences of them. And the truth is, everybody's right, even though there's a moment in the doc where someone talks about how he was treated by them and he was.
Dax Shepard
It's heartbreaking.
Lena Waithe
People recall that. But this person's truth exists. The documentary allows Chevy's truth to exist as well.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. They're just wreckage.
Lena Waithe
But that's the thing. It's like the Pee Wee Herman doc I thought was really phenomenal because I grew up with that.
Dax Shepard
I loved that doc.
Lena Waithe
That doc. I watched it multiple times.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. That's a beautiful.
Lena Waithe
So stunning. Because I didn't realize what I was actually getting when I was watching that show.
Dax Shepard
Me neither.
Lena Waithe
He was speaking to the crazy, weird kids.
Monica Padman
Yes.
Dax Shepard
It was all misfits.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And I didn't even get that. But I felt very connected to him.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. I didn't know I was a misfit until I realized I'm like, what is it about this language that he's speaking that I understand?
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
Sometimes you don't know what you're seeing until somebody points it out to you.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
And so.
Lena Waithe
And I think that's the other thing too. You get perspective. You can kind of look back on a career and go, oh. And then you see the downfall. You go, I see. Oh, this is interesting. That kind of went. How they tried to make it like he was a bad dude.
Dax Shepard
Breaks my heart.
Lena Waithe
That's crazy.
Dax Shepard
He was straight. And fucking hookers. Like, he could have done anything straight. Nothing would have happened.
Lena Waithe
Oh, yeah. That's the thing. Hello. Anyway, it's the thing about these people's lives and the impact they have on us that we don't even realize. And then you realize that this person that has such an impact on you was a person.
Dax Shepard
Oh, yeah. Everyone.
Lena Waithe
It's weird when you realize your parents are a person. You're like, oh, that's weird.
Dax Shepard
There's only one person I think might not be a person, but this is one Steven Seagal. I'm not.
Lena Waithe
You could have went anywhere.
Dax Shepard
Like, I know if I watched the doc and I saw the record, he'd be very comfortable.
Lena Waithe
You're like, I don't know. Begone. Yes.
Dax Shepard
Begone.
Lena Waithe
Yes. Begone. Yes. Begonia.
Dax Shepard
I read that you wanted to be a TV writer at 7 and this feels impossible to me because when I watched TV at 7, it wouldn't have even occurred to me that it had started with writing. It's just like these people exist on this box. I think that might be real.
Lena Waithe
I think the truth is, I knew I liked writing as a kid. I liked the assignment of having to summarize the book or tell about what you did the day before. And I remember my teacher really affirming me that young, saying, I look forward to reading your papers.
Dax Shepard
We both know our teacher's name. Who was it?
Lena Waithe
Mrs. Tarrant Bunis.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Larry LeClaire.
Lena Waithe
Come on.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. When they tell you you're a good writer, you're like, okay.
Lena Waithe
I think what we say is so powerful. The power of the tongue is real. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And I just need to always. Any opportunity, give any little kid that thing.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. Because they'll remember it. It stays with them both ways.
Monica Padman
Whether you're told you're not good at something or you are good, like that just sticks for sure.
Lena Waithe
So. No, I was really grateful to have that. But also obviously loved watching television as a young person. I used to watch old TV because I had the grandma in the house. So we was watching, like, all in family.
Dax Shepard
Her shows.
Lena Waithe
Oh, ye. We gonna watch what I want. All in the family.
Dax Shepard
Sandra and son.
Lena Waithe
Well, we like the Jeffersons. Good times. Obviously, being the family of Chicago, I got to watch that old tv. That had a really big impact on me. A different world was really important to me, which is the spinoff of the Cosby show for the younger audience. Really sort of speaking to me. Even though I was like. Didn't even know what college was, I
Dax Shepard
had beef with that show.
Lena Waithe
Okay, what's the beef?
Dax Shepard
I'd say my first number one love of my life was Lisa Bonet.
Lena Waithe
Of course, I'm not alone.
Dax Shepard
For get it.
Lena Waithe
And then she gave birth to herself. Come on. Zoe Kravitz is also stunning.
Dax Shepard
I got to dance with her one night for, like, two hours. I just need to tell you, Kristen and I were at a thing.
Lena Waithe
Of course. This is how every story starts.
Dax Shepard
And Kristen goes, there's your girl.
Lena Waithe
This is why you're married to the best lady on the planet.
Dax Shepard
She goes, there's your girl, and she's dancing, and you love to dance, so get over there.
Lena Waithe
Okay.
Dax Shepard
And I fucking danced. Cars floating on a cloud. Anyways, the spinoff was like, she took us to the spinoff, right?
Lena Waithe
Correct. And then she got booed after the first season. But that's the way it's supposed to go. I lost my lead season three. You know, people knew about that. But there's something that happens when the universe takes someone away like that where, like, we gonna hang the hat on this person. Well, let's remove that person now. See what you do. And what happened was a different world became the show it was ultimately meant to become, which it was supposed to be about Jasmine Guy and Kadeem Hardison and Kree Summer and Sharnell Brown and Darrell Bell and Sinbad and everyone that came in and to.
Dax Shepard
So that show was like everything.
Lena Waithe
It was just everything. It's like, even though, did you just
Dax Shepard
want to live in the world? Did you want to be in that college? Weren't they all in a college?
Lena Waithe
That show is a big reason why a lot of folks went to historically black colleges. My black ass. Loving a different world the way I did. I ended up going to Columbia College in Chicago, study writing, producing and television. But I did go visit Fisk, which is a HBCU as well. I wanted to stay in Chicago and I wanted to go learn how to write television.
Dax Shepard
Is Columbia Chicago a part of university? A part of the New York. They're completely different things.
Lena Waithe
Completely different.
Dax Shepard
I was trying to figure that out when I was researching you today. I was like, I'm raining all about it.
Lena Waithe
University. I went to the college that tells you like, you know. But she was an exec or is an exec, and I'm a writer, so it makes sense.
Monica Padman
It's like, okay, like all this.
Lena Waithe
Use these different parts of your brain. But I went to Columbia and it was really the best thing.
Dax Shepard
Can I ask really quick, though? Who are you in elementary? Who were you in high school? Who were you in junior high?
Lena Waithe
Oh, who was I?
Dax Shepard
Yeah, in Chicago. And you moved to Evanson. But tell me the first 12.
Lena Waithe
Oh, my God.
Dax Shepard
Who were you?
Lena Waithe
Elementary school. I was. The conduct grade was always low classing around classical. Just a busybody talking too much. My mom having to come up to the school.
Monica Padman
You said you're not adhd, but this is sounding a teeny bit.
Lena Waithe
I was a social butterfly. Way young. I was there to socialize. The grades were solid, though. The reading and the writing and all that. I was killing it, you know, But I was talking too much. And then junior high, I was very much like a tomboy, but I hung out with all the pretty girls and stuff like that. I was in that crew. I loved movies. That was a big part of my personality. People could ask me about anything.
Dax Shepard
Can I ask how early you were fully aware of being queer? And then when you started sharing that
Lena Waithe
with friends, oh, man, that's so interesting because I feel like I'm a person that believes it's sort of in you from the beginning. It's about where you recognize it.
Dax Shepard
But, I mean, for a minute, you're just not even sexual.
Lena Waithe
True. No. But the thing is, when your kids like you laugh, you have crushes.
Dax Shepard
That's true.
Lena Waithe
You like other kids, you like your teachers and shit.
Dax Shepard
There's teachers you like.
Lena Waithe
That was never one of my fantasies though, because my teachers were like my aunts and moms, like, they were like amazing, but they just were giving that. But it was really about. I was looking at these actors and stuff coming up and the Janet Jacksons I could recognize. I'm like, Janet is beautiful. I was like, okay, what's happening over here? Halle Berry is beautiful. I can recognize. Whitney Houston is beautiful. But I also considered my mother to be beautiful. And so there was a level of like, oh, you're beautiful, she's beautiful. Okay. These women that I could recognize, it was a different thing.
Dax Shepard
Did you have a young mom? Are you the older sister or the youngest?
Lena Waithe
I'm the youngest. And my mom was like, in her, like, if she had us. Okay. So it feels like the usual age you have kids and my sister's like, almost two years older than me. And so it's just the two of us. And I just gravitated toward the female energy. But then I was also a tomboy, like outside with the boys and stuff like that. And so I think for me, high school, I definitely felt very queer. But the thing about tomboys, girls don't really get teased the way boys who are effeminate do.
Dax Shepard
No, Right.
Lena Waithe
Because in a patriarchal society, it's not odd to be a girl that wants to be a boy. It's odd to be a boy that wants to be a girl because girls are sort of second class citizens, right?
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
And so that was the thing. Like, I was never teased or made fun of. So I was never, never eyeballed. And then in college, I was still living with my mom, so I wasn't really out exploring. It wasn't until I moved to la where I was like, okay, where are the gay clubs at? Where are the gay kids? This and that. And then when I would go to those clubs, I would feel very much like an outsider. Like, I didn't feel welcome.
Dax Shepard
Did you feel inexperienced?
Lena Waithe
Definitely felt inexperienced. And also felt like I don't have any gay gifts, friends either. And so I've just cultivated this sort of like queer black women. Not like a requirement, but the thing is, like, we had to curate that, cultivate that community. Like, it wasn't just like, oh, where are my other queer black masc women?
Dax Shepard
It's not turnkey.
Lena Waithe
No. Like, you gotta really find folks. And we've literally found it. We were hanging out last night and it's private. We don't have Our phones. We're just having dinner, we're sharing. It's amazing. But it took a beat for us to, like, figure that out. And so I think that's the interesting thing about Community is that it takes effort, it takes time, it takes energy, everything worth having.
Dax Shepard
No one ever knocks on your door and gives you something that's worth having.
Lena Waithe
No. I do think there's this desire of everything you can have delivered to your door. And not friends.
Dax Shepard
No, not friends, not partners, not any of that stuff.
Lena Waithe
No.
Dax Shepard
You got to work for jobs. All the shit that's worth having, you
Lena Waithe
got to fight for it.
Dax Shepard
They don't hand it out.
Lena Waithe
They don't. And then once you get it, that's when the real work begins.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
So you got. I don't want to say lucky, because obviously you'd gotten a degree in it, but you land pretty quickly in LA after graduation as an assistant to an executive producer of Girlfriend.
Lena Waithe
Girlfriend. Yes.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Right.
Lena Waithe
Which I was loving watching.
Dax Shepard
And the creator of that show at the time had been the youngest black showrunner ever. Like, 30 maybe. Right.
Lena Waithe
Because Yvette Lee Bowser, who wrote On a Different World, she was up top. She had a crazy show called Living Single, so she was outside as well. Want to give her her flowers? And then Mara Brock Akil was also coming up at that time. Mara, Mara. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Anytime. M A R A, I'm afraid. Is it Mara or Mara? I've had to go. In this case, it's Mara Maraquillo.
Monica Padman
Jack, go for it.
Lena Waithe
Please. Come on.
Monica Padman
Last week. Week or two weeks ago, I met Mara twice in, like, one week. She's stunning and she's incredible. I went to one of your events. Yeah, one of my events.
Dax Shepard
Monica's right into a lot of events,
Monica Padman
but she was at 2, and she's the best. And we exchanged numbers. I told her the story of the show, and she was like, I want to listen what episode? So I was like, sending her episode, so hopefully she'll hear this.
Dax Shepard
Oh, yeah.
Monica Padman
So big shout out.
Lena Waithe
Marbucker here. I'm gonna send it to her. I'm gonna send it up.
Dax Shepard
But that feels like a real blessing to Lane with that person as a potential mentor.
Lena Waithe
Oh, my God. And she has. She has been. She came to the Queen as Limb premiere Gina Prince bythewood. I want to shout out as well, who wrote and directed Love and Basketball. Mara got me a job working for her on Secret Life of Bees once I was done with Mara, and then Gina got me a gig working for Ava DuVernay when she went to go direct her first film. So that's my trifecta of fairy godmothers in the business. And Gina just hit me, like, today because she got a chance to look at my play that I did in Baltimore. And her and Reggie Bythewood, her husband, who was also a big mentor of mine, they literally sent me a text today saying, hey, we love this play. It was very well done. Really proud of you. And I was like, my parents are telling me they're proud of me right now.
Dax Shepard
Okay, so when you leave that show, is your first staff writing job on Bones, or is it on the Nickelodeon show?
Lena Waithe
Nickelodeon was first and then I got Bones. So I did the half hour multicam, and then I did the hour long procedural.
Dax Shepard
And culturally going from so different. Yeah. And how did that go?
Lena Waithe
I kind of struggled on the multicam kids show thing because it's just sort of not my vibe.
Dax Shepard
You're not watching a lot of that.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. But, like, I needed a job. And the lead was a black girl, and so they couldn't hire Shout out to Izzy. I love him. He was like, all right, I must have you two black women split the check. Because he's like, otherwise I can only have one. I know. That's sort of how it goes. Not his fault. I mean, it's just the way it goes. They did like the paper team situation. So me, another black female writer shared an office and we were on a writing team then. I didn't, like, work for a bit, but I wrote the pilot of the Shy. Had the table read for it.
Dax Shepard
Did you sell it tonight, Nevins?
Lena Waithe
Yes.
Dax Shepard
I love Nev.
Lena Waithe
I love him so much.
Dax Shepard
He's the best.
Lena Waithe
I call him my. My Clive Davis. He was like, come on in. He taught me a lot too. He said to me, whatever you don't get in your first season, you'll get in your second. Whatever you don't get in the second season, you'll get in your third. Or. It was so great at a breakfast, and he just sort of gave me such.
Dax Shepard
He bought the pilot in 15, but you didn't shoot it till 18.
Lena Waithe
We shot two pilots of it. We did one pilot and he said, this could be better. And he was right. And then we did it again. And then that was the one he greenlit.
Dax Shepard
So two things. A, hard D. Hear that? B, what a champion to say, go get it right. Yeah, right. Was it hard to hear it or did you know it as well? Or was he wrong?
Lena Waithe
No, he was right. Ultimately, I can't have to give him that I, though, didn't think the director we had for the first one was the right director for it. I will say that. And they were like, no, this is a big deal, by the way. No need to say his name or whatever, but no need to disrespect anyone because he is very talented and amazing. I just didn't think he was right for what I was doing. And so then we did that, and in essence, like, no, yeah, okay. We were both right. And so he said, let's go here. And we got Rick Famua, who directed Dope, who directed the Wood, and he directed the pilot of our show, which is a big reason why I think it went. And we had a beautiful cast, and Alex Hibbard, who came from moonlight right over to our set. And obviously Jason Mitchell was coming off of Straight Outta Compton, and Yolanda Ross and Jacob Lattimore. Just the whole cast was really wonderful. And they sort of brought us into this space of, oh, okay, this is the show. I always wanted to be an ensemble piece, but they were like, no, you need a lead. And then, of course, season three, I lead, was taken away due to some events. And then it became the show that I think I always intended it to be.
Dax Shepard
Do you think this description's fair? I've read this many times where people say, like, it's a hopeful version of the Wire. I mean, that is maybe the greatest show ever made. So it never hurts to be in the same sentence more hopeful, you know?
Lena Waithe
Yeah, I definitely get the comparisons, for sure. And I think the Wire did something that hadn't been done on television before. And I never feel, like, weird about comparisons or people mentioning things in the same sentence, because I think that's such an honor. And I think the shy, really, for me, was the slice of life ensemble. I didn't want to necessarily go too deep into these different organizations or places or things like that, because I really wanted to have people in living rooms having conversations while people in living rooms are watching it and maybe be encouraged to have their own conversations. I'm a writer that I think leans into conversations, wanting to start conversations, not even wanting to start them, but wanting to have them. I love Matthew Lopez, phenomenal playwright, recently said to me, which, by the way, which he got from Mike Nichols, but he was saying that every conversation, there's like, three categories. It's like it's a negotiation, it's a seduction, or it's a competition or something like that. And so I really kind of carried that. And I'll be paraphrasing But I really do love the art of a conversation.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Conversing. For me, it's a very fun game. It's like the best game. And you can play it all day long.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, exactly.
Dax Shepard
I just love games, and I think talking to people is just this super fun game.
Lena Waithe
Sometimes people like to be in combat, in conversation, and I prefer to be in dialogue. Meaning you're saying something. I'm digesting it. I say something, you digest it. And we can kind of accept that.
Dax Shepard
Mine would be opposite of comeback. It would be, I say something, and it opens the door for you to say something even scarier, which opens the door for me to say something even scarier. That, to me, is like the ratcheting up of it. Not like a conflict, more just like, I'm going here. Oh, fuck. Okay. I'll meet you there. And then plus one.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
That's the fun game of it.
Lena Waithe
I love that. I think. Cause that's really how you get to be close. It's sort of saying, I'm gonna say something scary. And that gives me permission to say something scary too.
Dax Shepard
So I think Master Nun is a very interesting and probably unexpected deviation.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
But ultimately has to be a wonderful thing to integrate into the overall thing.
Lena Waithe
It really changed my life.
Dax Shepard
I learned the story today. I would have assumed you and Aziz were friends and that the role was written for you.
Lena Waithe
I know, but that is not at
Dax Shepard
all what it was.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. No, not at all.
Dax Shepard
It was written for a white woman that might become his love interest.
Lena Waithe
Correct.
Dax Shepard
Oh, so walk us through.
Lena Waithe
I don't want to do it. He's like, I don't know if it was a white woman. It was just supposed to be a straight woman show.
Monica Padman
And tell us himself.
Lena Waithe
Look, here's the truth. I don't know how likely that is, but you get Brad Pitt as he's in. Sorry. I don't know. We'll see what happens.
Monica Padman
He's hard to get, this guy.
Lena Waithe
Trust me. I know. I know. I love him.
Dax Shepard
I love him.
Lena Waithe
He's my brother. He doesn't like to talk. He doesn't want to talk to people. Like, that's just how he is. He talked to Amy, which was surprising.
Dax Shepard
We've had maybe 15 text exchanges.
Lena Waithe
Come on.
Dax Shepard
And they're all about watches. I'm like, that's all we're going to do.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. Take it. It's more than what started the show.
Monica Padman
There was, like, a list of, like, eight people that we wanted.
Lena Waithe
He'd be great, though.
Monica Padman
He's on there.
Lena Waithe
Having me here. Doesn't hurt, cuz now he'll be like, okay, all right, talk to me about it.
Dax Shepard
She lived.
Monica Padman
Yeah, exactly.
Lena Waithe
I think she lived.
Dax Shepard
Let me call her first and make sure she lived.
Lena Waithe
Talk to me about it.
Monica Padman
No, the BAL thing's really going to throw him. He's like, I'm never going on there.
Lena Waithe
No, no, no. Oh, Jesus Christ. Again, I got to give a shout out to Allison Jones.
Dax Shepard
We had her on, by the way.
Monica Padman
Yes. Friend of the pod.
Lena Waithe
That's right. I did, I watched. That's also a rare thing because she also. She doesn't talk to people.
Monica Padman
I know.
Lena Waithe
I just discovered.
Dax Shepard
But you know, not cuz she doesn't want to, per se. She made it very clear. She was so flattered. And no one ever cares about casting directors. She just didn't think anyone. She kept thinking, why are you interviewing so crazy?
Lena Waithe
Which is insane.
Dax Shepard
Yes, it's insane, but it's very endearing.
Lena Waithe
She's phenomenal. She literally saw something I put out online, which I wasn't even in. It was a pilot presentation for a show I ultimately did called twenties. I put it out there because I wanted somebody to see it and go, okay, we could do this. And so then I got a call that she wanted to meet me. I didn't know who she was, but I went and sat with her and I walked by the. For Freaks and Geeks and Bridesmaids and Fresh Prince of Bel Air.
Dax Shepard
And I thought, okay, she's like, Lorne Michaels.
Lena Waithe
Got it. Yeah. So I sit across from her and I just talked to her about television. And she has such great taste and everything. And I talked about Maude and watching that and watching Golden Girls.
Dax Shepard
Are you pretty encyclopedic with TV stuff? Yeah, yeah.
Lena Waithe
I mean, I worked at Blockbuster for a while.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Yeah. And Best Buy and. Movie theater.
Lena Waithe
Yes, in the movie theater.
Dax Shepard
You did your homework.
Lena Waithe
I do. I know all my stuff. So we were just like talking about the most randomest, like, things. And she just kind of goes, have you ever considered acting? And I said, I have not. She's like, okay. She's like, can I bring you in for some stuff? Just for like, you know, shits and giggles? And I was like, sure. And she did. She brought me in for Veep. And I wasn't able to really handle that because Julia Louis Dreyfus was like, in front of me. And so I wasn't expecting that. So I just like, completely fucked up.
Dax Shepard
You gotta be a fucking gunslinger to be on Veep. I was like, that's not a great Starter acting job.
Lena Waithe
But then she did bring me in for a tape, and I got to come back, which was cool. And then I got a call that said, can you just go meet with Aziz?
Dax Shepard
Wait, really quick. Can I ask.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
At that time, were you, like, extra money, or were you like, I want to act. I have a desire to act.
Lena Waithe
No, I just really trusted her instincts. I didn't think that that was something that was in the cards for me, though. I'm a writer. That's what I do. So because Aziz and her. She was obviously brought on to do the show. It didn't even have a title. It took forever for us to get the title of the damn show as untitled Aziz and sorry project, because y' all know how that goes. But obviously, I was a fan of Parks and Rec and knew his comedy, But I got a call that was from her office that says, why don't you go meet with Aziz? And I. I was like, why is it casting people calling me? What's about the staffing? And he was like, I don't know, but go meet with Aziz and Alan Yang. And obviously, I knew Alan Yang's name as well. And so I thought, okay, all right, I'll go sit with them. But it's from Allison's office, so this is strange. And they were like, I know. Just go to his house and sit and talk to him. And so I later found out that Aziz told her that he didn't want just people to come in and read with him. He wanted to meet people first and see if they were interesting and then read. So he just said to her, send me interesting people. And by the grace of God, she and I had just met, and she said, oh, Lena, waithe is interesting. You should meet her. And he was like, okay, I don't know who that is, but send it to the house. And so I went to his house and sat with him and Alan. Not unlike this, literally, kind of almost similar, the furniture and everything. And I just sort of talked to them like I would if it was a staff writing meeting, but it clearly wasn't. And I just was like myself. I had recently fallen in love. I was just being myself, comfortable with my own skin. And then I got the call. Okay, he wants you to read with him. And I was like, oh, okay. So he thought I was interesting. So I came in, sat down, read with him, and it was just instant. Then I came into temple, the casting couch. It was a very straight white woman sitting next to me, and she's like, are you going in for Denise. And I was like, yeah, are you going in for Denise? She was like, yeah. She's like, it's funny, we get bumping through each other all the time. And I was like, right, yeah, that's weird.
Dax Shepard
By the way, it's so much better.
Lena Waithe
Oh, yeah, it's best. It's way better.
Dax Shepard
None. Otherwise, when you sit down, it's like, yeah, I'm kind of the same, but way less good looking. Exactly.
Lena Waithe
You're like different variations of each other. And so as these. To me, what I looked at, it was Alan and Michael Scher too, who's our parent on that. It was basically them saying, this is the NBC 1994 version of this show. This one was, of course, when I come in, it's like, this is where shit is going. Like, this is what it is. And so I totally get what they were doing. And so obviously when I went in, I had a cold too. And when I went in, I was like, oh, I told Michael Strawber, this is my flu game. I'm finna talk right around this man. Cause I was like, let's go. Because I could just feel something was interesting. And of course, after I read and tested diseases like, come on, come and get me.
Dax Shepard
And were you encouraged to be loose and improv in that audition?
Lena Waithe
A little bit.
Dax Shepard
Because again, if I'm going from, okay, we have this one archetype, but we're trying this other thing out. Let's see all the flavors. Like, I would want to know they
Lena Waithe
knew I was a writer and they were like, you know, I didn't want to blend the two. So the season one, I didn't write anything. Me and Denise would have conversations where he would take little things from there and put it in there. But then season two in success, he was like, okay, I want to do a Denise centered episode. And I was in season two a lot less because I had gotten ready Player one. And that was a very interesting, tricky thing because it was like classic. Like, we got a season two and now you say you want to go do the Spielberg movie, only be in there for a couple episodes. And I was like, yeah. I was like, but this is an opportunity. I'll give you a great episode. Just talking shit, you know, I was like, I'll give you a great episode. It'll be fine, man. Don't worry about it. Like, I got to go do this movie. And he's all like, oh, God, classic. And so sure enough, he came to London where I was filming so he and I could write the episode. Cuz Actually, I told him, I said, I can't write that episode with you. I said, cuz, I got to focus on this movie, man. Like, how you get to be in a Steven Spielberg movie? I got to show up. He was like, if you don't write it with me, it's not happening.
Monica Padman
Uhhuh. Good for him.
Lena Waithe
And so I was like, fine.
Dax Shepard
And it won an Emmy.
Lena Waithe
Yes, it did.
Dax Shepard
You won an Emmy for that?
Lena Waithe
Yeah. Became the first black woman to win for outstanding writing in the comedy series. Yeah.
Monica Padman
So great.
Dax Shepard
And did you lie?
Lena Waithe
It took some getting used to because he did want me to be myself.
Dax Shepard
And you're in New York City.
Lena Waithe
I was in New York City, baby. Going to restaurants with him, like, just. I mean, he's like, showing me the reason I know how, like, eat oysters and like, caviar, all this kind of stuff. Because he's such an old school gentleman type guy.
Dax Shepard
He knows every restaurant. And I'm like, okay, this is all fascinating.
Lena Waithe
Yes.
Dax Shepard
What a tour guide to New York
Lena Waithe
he must have been. Oh, my God. I mean, even in London too, I watched the show.
Dax Shepard
I'm like, I want to spend a week with him and fucking meet him at crazy corners and eat shit.
Lena Waithe
I know.
Monica Padman
That's stopping eating.
Dax Shepard
Look at girls and eat shit.
Lena Waithe
Let's go talk shit about girls. No, it was fantastic. I remember we used to go see moonlight together and Barry Jacobs was doing a Q and A after, and it was just like, crazy. And then we were. Because we knew we had Thanksgiving coming up, and so we were like, oh, this is crazy. He's someone that is a big part of not just my career, but I think just my evolution as an artist and as a person in the world. And I'm really grateful for his existence because my career wouldn't look the way it does if it weren't for him and Alison Jones and Alan Yang and Michael Jordan and Netflix, those guys over there. It's just such a big part of my career now.
Dax Shepard
What did you have to learn to run the Chi?
Lena Waithe
I'd never run it. I'm not a showrunner.
Dax Shepard
Oh, you've never run it?
Lena Waithe
I did the showrunner training program with the wga and I realized, yeah, someone said getting your own TV show is like being beaten to death with your own dream. And nothing is truer than that.
Dax Shepard
I always say the hardest corn motherfuckers in all the show business are showrunners. You have to give it to them.
Lena Waithe
That's why I don't do it, because they're doing budgets. They're dealing with actors, they're dealing with
Dax Shepard
execs, they're the edit. They do every single piece of it.
Lena Waithe
The way I get to sit here, you know, shout out to Jewel and Justin who co showrun it together. I do think it's a two person job. I get to be the creator, you know what I'm saying? And I get to like give notes and things like that.
Dax Shepard
You were in the writers room.
Lena Waithe
I was in the writers room for season one and season two. And those are rocky times because I was a young buck. Like I was 30, 31. That's young to be a show creator. They have showrunners they put you with who are older and wiser, but at the same time, I'm doing something new and you're hold holding onto something old.
Dax Shepard
That's the inherent tension in all these situations.
Lena Waithe
Always is.
Dax Shepard
I'm trying to do something new. But you know how to do it right? Both of you are right.
Lena Waithe
Yes, correct. But we're fighting. But you can't get the green light until they're like, well, we approve this guy to come oversee.
Dax Shepard
If they spend $100 million on something they want someone that has done it many times successfully.
Lena Waithe
I lightly call Michael Schur, our parent on, you know, master of none, because you need that person that's gonna kind of watch over. Okay, all right.
Dax Shepard
What are y' all doing?
Lena Waithe
Okay, what's happening? Okay, you wanna do what? That's the nature of the bees. And I think people that watch television don't always think about all those things. Or sometimes you have a whole episode and this act sick or this actor got a movie. Okay, you go here. We got to rewrite this and that changes that storyline. But we'll figure it out. These two actors, we wanted to be a couple, don't really have great chemistry. Okay, so we'll go over here. It's like all these different things.
Monica Padman
Creative. It's logistics.
Lena Waithe
Yes, it's logistics. It's like, it's also a workplace. It's like everybody don't always get along.
Dax Shepard
Oh, yeah, you're doing a lot of therapy for people.
Monica Padman
HR.
Lena Waithe
Exactly. Okay. HR deal with that. So it's just like, okay, it's eight seasons. I was like, yo, I'm going May 8th is. We're going to be in Chicago, last day of filming. We're going to do the and go promote it in New York.
Dax Shepard
Now explain this to me. So seasons one through five, 10 episodes. Season six, 16 episodes.
Lena Waithe
They did that. They asked us for more. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Season seven, 12. 12 and eight.
Lena Waithe
I asked us to go back to 10.
Dax Shepard
Okay. So for our last season, gonna be 10, baby. Okay.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Unconventional. By the way, Parenthood, which I was on for six years, we never did a season of the same number, same thing. I was like, we did 13, we did 21, we did 18, we did 14, we did eight.
Lena Waithe
Was that because of the streamer or the network?
Dax Shepard
It was the network. It was like they would never kind of comm. We were always on the bubble all six years. And it was like, this year, good news. 16. We're like, what fucking. What number is that? You're either doing 13 or you're doing 22. At that time, we're gonna do 16. And then one year, we're gonna do it. They tell us midway through. I don't know. It was very confusing.
Lena Waithe
When they told us they wanted 16 episodes. We had already had our 10 episode pitch, so we had to go to them and say, well, you gotta give us a few more weeks to figure out what that is. And they're like, okay, but it's good news. They want more episodes. And like, I had a new guy that come over and he wanted more episodes. Cause it was doing well, but we had never told a story that way before. People don't realize. You'. You're like, okay, so we're gonna do 16. Got it. And then seven. Oh, you doing 12. Okay. And that's why they said, yo, eight. I gotta. This will be 10. Okay, cool. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Do you have the pride of having a show that went eight seasons? This is like, you're in the thinnest of air.
Lena Waithe
I know there's a lot of gratitude, but also knowing that when we came on at that time, it was a different world. Eight years ago.
Monica Padman
I know.
Lena Waithe
Things were very different. Very different. Even more slightly more than eight. Cause we did the first pilot, then we did the second one. So we had a mini room and then this and that.
Dax Shepard
You mean you saw in 2015?
Lena Waithe
Correct.
Dax Shepard
So you've been doing this for 11 years?
Lena Waithe
Exactly. You've only seen eight seasons. But, you know, as a pilot, they'll never see the light of day. There's things that I've lived through that have really made me the artist I am now and made me someone that can really see things from a lot of different angles.
Dax Shepard
In 2018, you became the voice of at&t. I'm wondering what your tagline is. Can you say it? I want to hear it.
Lena Waithe
Oh, my God.
Monica Padman
He gets paid.
Dax Shepard
I made Billy Crudup do the Visa commercial. Priceless. Mastercard I made him do it to Monica. It was incredible.
Lena Waithe
Hold on. This is how, you know, I wrote
Dax Shepard
one to fuck with Monica that he had.
Monica Padman
MasterCard was fantastic. Fantastic.
Lena Waithe
Oh, my God.
Monica Padman
He did a cold read. It was perfect. What is.
Lena Waithe
What was my main? Because it was. It was like, what was my main thing? I'm forgetting it. Just okay is not okay. Just okay is not okay.
Dax Shepard
Is that it? Does that feel familiar?
Lena Waithe
It was that, but it was something else, too. It was something else.
Dax Shepard
How many years did you do that?
Lena Waithe
Oh, Matt did that for a few years. Like, maybe like three.
Dax Shepard
That's the best job in Hollywood.
Lena Waithe
At the crib, too.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And the pay is nice.
Lena Waithe
It is lovely.
Dax Shepard
It's a nice payday.
Lena Waithe
Yes, it is. Minimal work situation.
Dax Shepard
If you looked at your career and you charted your hourly rate, there would just be this huge spike and it'd be your atm.
Lena Waithe
It's right there. It's right there. And people would recognize me from my voice. Speaking of the voice Delta. Yeah, they knew. They're like, your voice. Sound familiar?
Monica Padman
Oh, maybe Delta's, like, going to have a huge campaign.
Lena Waithe
No, she will. She will. She will.
Dax Shepard
I'm speaking that she's the kid who, you know, I'm certain to be wrong. What I love is she loves writing more than anything. She writes compulsively. We just had the conversation last night. You would love this. I imagine if you can imagine having a kid, this would be the ultimate conversation you could ever have. Right? She wants to win. There's like a writing competition at school to write basically the closing statement of elementary. And so all the kids are writing something. She really wants to get picked and to be able to read it on stage. She wrote it and then she read it to Kristen. And Kristin said, it's really good, but I think. And you're better off speaking to your dad about this, but I'm not sure that it's you. And so she came upstairs and she's like, mom said this. I'm gonna read it to me. And I got to have this conversation with her. And I said, the challenge as a writer is to never write for any. Anybody but you. And it's so hard.
Lena Waithe
That's true.
Dax Shepard
I said, so you could choose to write this to try to win a contest, or you could choose to write the story that you would tell your best friend Inka about your experience at cwc. What would you say about your experience to Inka, your best friend? And she was like, I get that.
Lena Waithe
Okay.
Dax Shepard
I get that. And I was like, this is like the dream of all dreams. Have a conversation like that with my daughter about what it means to find your voice as an artist.
Lena Waithe
Oh, that's good.
Dax Shepard
I was just floating on a cloud. This whole conversation, it was so fun.
Lena Waithe
You know, it's interesting because I am childhood childless by choice. And we talked about this a little bit. Like, if you don't remember that I'm still in that camp. It's so fascinating because there's so many things that I think about in terms of, like, why I don't want to be a parent. A lot of it is because you have to have a sort of mental capacity for that at the end of a day. What's interesting is you have the capacity to sit and, like, hear it, give the note, you hear the rewrite. You gonna maybe be there if she wins, you know, it's gonna be. It's a lot of energy. If she doesn't get it, then there's also that, you know, emotional showing up that you'll do.
Dax Shepard
The most likely thing is if she succeeds at writing the things she'd really tell her friend Inca, it's not gonna get picked.
Lena Waithe
Oh, well, who knows? We don't know that.
Dax Shepard
We don't know. But at this age, at this age, in that context, it probably won't be rewarded. Originality in true voice.
Lena Waithe
But that's also another lesson you got to teach.
Dax Shepard
Well, I told her. I said, look, hon, she's gonna set her up.
Lena Waithe
Just. Thank you.
Dax Shepard
Well, luckily, I got Storyteller. It's like, I've always written what I wanted, and it didn't work. It didn't always work well. I wanted a car chase movie. That was a love story. Nobody wants that. I wanted that. And it didn't work, but I kept doing it. And one day the podcast happened. It took so many years of me being truthful to that. Sometimes it takes a while. But you will have the pride of having always told the story you wanted to tell, and that is invaluable and worth more than any amount of money you could have made.
Lena Waithe
Absolutely where I do that, because I have this mentorship program where there's writers, there's actors, there's people who want to be execs, and I get on zooms with them once a month, and they can ask me whatever they want. We have these lovely private conversations. And I think that's where I realized, oh, that's where I can show up and be real. Because also, it's that element, too, of being supportive and encouraging, but also being grounded and being realistic and I think that is the path you're walking with your kid. Maybe for me, as a man, which I've become, and I try to do that, it's still a responsibility, you know, but I think you're doing. I always say parents are doing God's work because it's a different kind of responsibility that you have. This is a person that is a reflection of you, but also you want to make sure that they're on a carbon copy of you.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
So it's like you got to give her guidance, but also make sure she has a space to become more of herself.
Dax Shepard
Stay tuned for more Armchair Extra expert, if you dare. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now, that's where ServiceNow's AI specialist come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?
Monica Padman
They never are.
Dax Shepard
To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. The thing you fight the most as a parent constantly is they are their own thing.
Lena Waithe
Oh, my gosh.
Dax Shepard
It's all you're doing. Like, you're trying your hardest.
Lena Waithe
But think about how many parents don't do that. There's so many parents whose children are really doing the thing that parents want them to do.
Dax Shepard
It's very natural and gratifying to see yourself in other things. We search for that and that's how we bond. And it's great. Invariably you do that. You see all these things that are similar to yourself in it, and it's very, very gratifying. But then you have to go like. And that's 10% of them I might miss. The other 90% does not like me at all because I'm not looking for it.
Lena Waithe
Right.
Dax Shepard
You got to remind yourself to constantly look for it. Back to the baby thing. So what happened to me was a. I've always wanted kids, so that's standard. But also I had a friend who had a daughter who I just fell in love with. I'd take her trick or treat, and she'd ride on My shoulders. And I just constantly was like, if I don't get a Madeline before I die, I'm going to be built for it. Yeah, I'm built for it. But Delta, fuck you up a little bit.
Lena Waithe
Oh, yeah, no, here's.
Monica Padman
That's another problem.
Lena Waithe
No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause then I'll meet kids and I'm like, oh, can my kid be cool and chill?
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
And like this and that. But then the tricky part is though, they gonna have moments of not being chill, not being cool, like upset. It's just a lot going on.
Dax Shepard
There is a lot.
Lena Waithe
You know, I'm just like, how much do I have? Like, I got responsibility for myself, my community, my work.
Monica Padman
And you feel fulfilled.
Lena Waithe
I do, yeah. Yeah.
Monica Padman
You're like, I'm whole.
Lena Waithe
Yes. And I do think it can be very societal. I think sometimes people say, oh, why'd you wanna have kids? Oh, you know, on that age, I couldn't finally afford it. Or it's that time. And although now there's something every other week there's an article in New York Times about people can't afford to have the children now, so they're deciding not to for certain reasons. Or people don't like the world they may be bringing them into. But for me, it's more of an internal thing about what do I actually have the mental capacity for. What I also think about is at the end of a long day, what do I wanna do with myself. And I think the first thing is to not take. Take care of someone else.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Lena Waithe
Because it's a different kind of thing that you're doing. Because also anything could happen with kids. Like they fall, break something, they say,
Dax Shepard
can I hit you with something?
Lena Waithe
Go ahead.
Dax Shepard
Now, I'm trying to convince you.
Lena Waithe
No, no, no, no. Go.
Dax Shepard
But I'm just. I just want to point out a lot of these counterintuitive things.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
You might be shocked to learn or find out or experience that taking care of them is taking care of yourself in a way that was unimaginable.
Lena Waithe
Oh, that's interesting.
Dax Shepard
The amount of healing and perspective that's happening in those moments and the right sizing of concerns and all these existential things you have in the racket in your head and the things that are important. Like somehow it can alleviate all of those things. It's like you think you're going to be overwhelmed. But weirdly, it prioritizes things in this way. Oh, this is weirdly nurturing to me. And has. Yeah. Just prioritized Things in a very clean and lovely. Like, here's what I miss about being an addict. The beauty of being an addict is you have a single goal.
Lena Waithe
Yes, it's true.
Dax Shepard
I'm telling you, it's a liberating, fun thing. It's like, I have one mission today. Do not fall off of this high. That's so peaceful.
Lena Waithe
Is it difficult for you to watch stuff like Euphoria or like, I love it. So you can watch.
Dax Shepard
Oh, I love it.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, yeah.
Dax Shepard
Because I know it's not like I just see it. I'm like, oh, I've been in that room. I know this thing. Yeah, I love it.
Lena Waithe
Gotcha.
Dax Shepard
Some addicts can't watch this.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah. But I hear you, because I love. Jada Pinkett calls her children her teachers. She says, they teach me things about herself, all that kind of stuff. And I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at parenthood, because obviously you're thinking this the other way around. But I think for me, I am taught something by human beings every single day. And that's why I feel like I don't need to produce one or have somebody produce one. Because it really is a writer's job to be a witness to really look at human behavior and try to understand it and accept things about it that don't make sense to us sometimes. Because when I look at society, it's easy to get frustrated. But rather I say, why are we behaving this way? Because it's not out of sheer desire for destruction. It's out of the sheer desire to be seen, to be loved, to be a part of something. And so I think, yeah, I may not be a parent, and I don't have a desire to be, but I think what I do have a desire to do is to understand humanity and have empathy for us and be able to reflect us back to ourselves so that way we could better understand.
Monica Padman
I mean, Chelsea Handler says this so perfectly all the time. She's like, I don't have kids, so I have the capacity to give to all these other kids. Like, she's.
Lena Waithe
Oh, yeah. A lot of my friends have kids.
Monica Padman
Yeah. And just like she gives all these charities, she's just like, I have space. If I had a kid, I could not feasibly do all of that.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. And I will say my friend Melina Matsoukas, who has a little one who's like her son, who's not yet one, and he is in that space of when I come over there, I can just, like, hold him. And I. I was over there holding him, and she's like, you come over here to get your baby fixed.
Monica Padman
That's the problem.
Lena Waithe
And I was like, what?
Monica Padman
No, no.
Lena Waithe
Because when I hand him back, when I'm sitting there also low key, getting tired. He's getting heavy as hell. Yeah, he's heavy. She noticed. I'm like, girl, this is not normal, girl. What is happening? What's in the breast milk? She's like, I know, child. But as I give her back. Cause I'm like, yo, I'm exhausted before I leave. And she's just like, let's just give her back over here. I was like, yeah, I want to give him back. I want to give Rakim back.
Dax Shepard
We had a terrifying moment when Kristen was probably, like six months pregnant. We went out to eat with our friends the Hansons, and they already had two little kids. And we were at Bob's Big Boys trying to have dinner. Impossible. It was not possible to have dinner with these kids there.
Lena Waithe
So you guys were like, look what we're about to do.
Dax Shepard
Oh, Lord, we can't go to Bob's Big Boys anymore. Like, that's a wrap on going out to fucking eat a hamburger.
Lena Waithe
Y' all don't want to leave the house, though. Let's keep it up.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, now we have an excuse. So you got that built in excuse. That's nice.
Lena Waithe
That's other thing. Parents don't be going nowhere anytime.
Dax Shepard
I don't want to go somewhere. There's a play that night.
Lena Waithe
Oh, look, see, look. I'm here. I go out. I go out a little bit. Yeah, I'm outside a little bit.
Dax Shepard
Just a little bit. You're social. You've been since elementary. Problem.
Lena Waithe
Social? Yeah.
Dax Shepard
It's your life. It's your life force.
Lena Waithe
You're social, too. I am. You're social, too.
Dax Shepard
Drives my wife crazy. Like, how many people do you need to talk to? I'm like, everyone, hopefully. I think there's like 7 billion left I have to talk to.
Lena Waithe
It's like, it's your job. It's your job.
Dax Shepard
She always says the greatest gift about this show is that, like, I do get to talk myself out enough so that's. I'm tolerable at night. Yeah, yeah. The load's not all on her shoulders.
Lena Waithe
I love you guys. I love you guys together. I'm not Team Cher. What happened? I'm not. I'm not. I'm like, guys, no. I said Internet. What are you doing?
Dax Shepard
Can I tell you my conclusion? I think it's A good one. Oh, God.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
That's all we got asked about when we got nominated this year. But I think my final conclusion on it is, the best way for me to digest that is nobody's good enough for her.
Lena Waithe
Oh, my God.
Dax Shepard
And I love that, and that's true. But I'm the next best thing.
Lena Waithe
That's right, brother. Yeah. Yeah. You're killing it. You're killing it.
Dax Shepard
That's the message. The message isn't against me.
Lena Waithe
No.
Dax Shepard
It's nobody's good enough for her. And I love that. I'm glad that's how she feels about her, and I'm glad that's how America feels about her.
Lena Waithe
This is real. This is real.
Dax Shepard
I can live with that.
Lena Waithe
But to me, I just love what you two represent, which is 1950s old school. No. But I think sometimes people have an idea of who they're supposed to be with. That idea is never as good as who they're actually supposed to be with.
Monica Padman
She said I was supposed to marry, like, head of unicef.
Dax Shepard
You're supposed to marry Mike Sher.
Lena Waithe
Oh, wow.
Dax Shepard
You know, a good boy.
Lena Waithe
Mike's pretty successful, and he's just a good human being. Oh, my God.
Dax Shepard
He wakes up thinking how he can help other people. I don't. I wake up thinking about speedboats.
Lena Waithe
Okay.
Dax Shepard
I'm like, should I order a Donzi or buy a used one?
Lena Waithe
No. But you also the type of person that said, I got to get a meline before I die.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Yeah. That's true.
Lena Waithe
That's real.
Dax Shepard
I do want to ask one thing, and you can say no.
Monica Padman
Okay.
Dax Shepard
But you were with someone for a couple years.
Monica Padman
Uhhuh.
Dax Shepard
And then you got married, and it only lasted a couple months.
Monica Padman
Uhhuh.
Dax Shepard
And I'm dying to know if something about the title. Everyone up, or you.
Lena Waithe
It wasn't the title. No. Okay. It was me also feeling like even though I'm not as happy as I should be, I think this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And I just didn't have the language or understanding of that. My happiness didn't feel like it was important. I think what was most important was that I. I honor this relationship.
Dax Shepard
Keep this thing going, whether you're enjoying
Lena Waithe
it or not, because of how much it's changed my life and how grateful I am for it and how amazing this human is. And I don't want to say happiness. I don't want to be frivolous about that. Like, I think we wanted different things. One of the things is, like, I actually realized I didn't want to have children. And that's a pretty big life change. And so. But at that time, I just thought. I just kept putting it off. And so that wasn't me lying. It was me still trying to understand what I wanted and who I wanted to be. And I think that's why, for me, it's really important, having this perspective, stepping back. It's like we have to really ask ourselves whose life we want to. Because a marriage and a relationship is the blending of two lives, truly. And so you have to really ask yourself, what life do I actually want? And I don't think I was very clear about that. All I knew was, I want to be with this person. I want to have this house. I want to have this dog. I want to have this mural. But then I didn't ask myself, but, like, where do you want to be in five years? Like, really?
Dax Shepard
And in its best version, it's like, I wanted this life, this person wanted this life. And then magically, when we get together, the two of us get a life that neither of us even thought of.
Lena Waithe
Right. Right.
Dax Shepard
And that's, like, maybe the greatest thing that can happen.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. I mean, or you could say, yo, we have impacted each other's lives in such a significant way, and now this might be where we give each other room to go and have lives that make sense for both of us and that might be together.
Monica Padman
That's hard to do.
Lena Waithe
Yeah. But I didn't do it in a way that was noble, that was honest, that was kind. It was done in a way that felt like a car crash. And that's because I just sort of, like, was driving the car too fast, not knowing the gear, and just sort of going. And that doesn't remove accountability for my behavior.
Dax Shepard
It's hard to exit these things elegantly. Very few people.
Lena Waithe
I wish I could have, you know, landed the plane better.
Dax Shepard
You know what I mean?
Lena Waithe
But I think ultimately, and again, it's about giving yourself grace and kind of looking back at it, going, oh, you could have handled that much better. You could have dealt with that in a different way. But what I do also understand, accept, is that I'm where I'm supposed to be. I know she's where she's supposed to be, and I don't have any ill will toward anyone. If anything, well, it's toward myself.
Dax Shepard
That's. I think, for me, the greatest feeling is I was with a woman for nine years. I still love her to death. We're friends, and her life turned out so fucking good. Nice and I'm like, oh, yes.
Lena Waithe
Oh, yeah. This part of life is like 10 times better.
Dax Shepard
That's where it could kill you. If you crash the car and the person's fucked up, that's hard to live with. But if, like, you can look back and like, oh, good, she's so happy. She has the perfect husband and the perfect kids and fucking so happy.
Lena Waithe
And that to me is how you know you really love somebody. Is that when you want them to be happy and happier without you.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lena Waithe
Because I don't know if that happiness would have ensued if I would have stayed there. To me, removing myself, I think was actually the right thing to do because I wouldn't have been able to deliver the life that I think she would have wanted.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. What are you most excited to do? You've done so many things. You have created many, many shows. You have them on Amazon, obviously.
Lena Waithe
We have the Shy.
Dax Shepard
The Shy. Yeah. Wrapping up May 22, coming out.
Lena Waithe
Coming out May 22. Paramount. Last season. The. The Shy says goodbye.
Dax Shepard
Okay. Shy says goodbye. What are you dying to do? You're also a producer on Cats, which has got nominated.
Lena Waithe
Angelica Ball, myself, Cynthia Erivo, Jeremy Pope laroch. John Legend dominated today for. For nine nominations.
Dax Shepard
Nine nominations.
Lena Waithe
One of the ones. Thank you so much. One of the ones I'm in there is for best revival of a musical.
Dax Shepard
Uh huh.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dax Shepard
Now let me ask you, were you a fan of Cats?
Monica Padman
No.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
The whole time I'm like, what's going on?
Lena Waithe
And then I went to go see. This version is told through queer black ball culture, which really makes so much sense. It lends itself to this world so well. It's almost like it was meant for this world.
Dax Shepard
Couldn't agree more.
Lena Waithe
It's phenomenal. It was perfect.
Dax Shepard
That world would have made sense in the ball world and almost nowhere else.
Lena Waithe
Exactly. Paris is Burning. I highly recommend everybody check out also Criterion Collection. Jenny Livingston, phenomenal documentary. Changed my life as well.
Dax Shepard
What's that about?
Lena Waithe
That's about the ball culture. She made a documentary about it when she was coming out of nyu. And it just is a movie that has been such an archival of our queer black ancestors and what they were doing at the time and the things that they were saying, but also speaks to reality of the time, what was going on. So obviously love that. And then I went to go see this show at PAC was where it started and I was blown away by it. And then I wanted to be a part of it and they were kind enough to let me join the team. And came over to Broadway and here we are.
Monica Padman
Really.
Dax Shepard
So do you want to do another show next or do you want to do a movie or do you want to do more AT&T commercials?
Lena Waithe
I'm doing a movie, writing a movie now as an actor of a short story called Grand Rising, which is something that you guys. If I say that, you kind of go like, huh. I don't know what it is. It's a different way that sometimes black folks and certain groups say good morning instead of good morning. They say grand Rising.
Monica Padman
Ooh.
Lena Waithe
Grand Rising is something that sometimes I feel like a little more enlightened. You sort of say that. So the woman wrote this amazing short story. I read it, loved it. I raised my hand to see if I could possibly come on and adapt it. They were kind enough to trust me with that. Fox Searchlight is doing it. We're not telling much about what the movie is because I think that's the new thing now. Be a little bit mysterious about the storyline. Let folks come experience it for themselves and see what it is. But I'm working on that right now. A couple TV show ideas. Maybe wanna play with like what it is to be in your 40s. So stay tuned. And then, yeah, theater, theater, theater. That's what I care so much about. Just. Cause I think with everything happening with the streamers and people not really wanting to go see the movies, live entertainment is something that we can't deny. And it's like station 11. It's like they're going around town performing Shakespeare for the people, for entertainment. Because when all of this stuff is shuts down, what do you have as people that can interpret words on a page and inspire you and move you? I think it's why Hamnet hit us all. Shakespeare sort of wrote about the most difficult thing he ever had to experience. And we just know it to be one of his great works. But to see that movie and to see how that story was happening in real time, obviously the way they were showing it just reminds me that this is how we actually look like to be communicated with.
Dax Shepard
I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen it yet.
Lena Waithe
It's okay. Don't worry about it.
Dax Shepard
I have kids. Isn't there.
Lena Waithe
That's another excuse. Yeah, that's okay. She didn't see F1 when Brad came. She was like, I don't.
Dax Shepard
I'm not with.
Monica Padman
I didn't know why I was editing this show.
Lena Waithe
I couldn't make it like Brad. I haven't seen a movie continue.
Dax Shepard
I hear it's I hear is fine. I heard you're fine. I heard you look fine.
Monica Padman
I can see that. You are fine.
Lena Waithe
You look good in it. Nah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So theater's my shit, Lena.
Dax Shepard
I just. I adore you. I really, really, really like you.
Lena Waithe
That feeling is mutual.
Dax Shepard
I really, really like you. I'm so glad I got to spend a couple hours with you that day. And my heart swells when I think of you. And I'm really glad you came. And I want everyone to watch the final season of the shy May 22 on Paramount. Go see Cats. Yes, please watch them.
Lena Waithe
I was a part of season one of them. Covenant, season two. I wasn't, but I think seasons are really strong.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
Also, Tony's. We're putting out good vibes.
Dax Shepard
Come on, win all the Tonys.
Lena Waithe
Tony.
Dax Shepard
The Anthony's, as I call them. Get you a couple Anthony's. Anthony, let's get that egot going.
Lena Waithe
Come on, let's go.
Dax Shepard
I know.
Lena Waithe
God damn me. We gonna see what happens.
Dax Shepard
All right. Be well. Thanks for coming.
Lena Waithe
Huge news, by the way. Thank you so much.
Dax Shepard
Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.
Monica Padman
What's up?
Dax Shepard
What it is?
Monica Padman
What is up?
Dax Shepard
How are you?
Monica Padman
I'm good.
Dax Shepard
You're good?
Monica Padman
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Okay. Well, we both went to Delta's play.
Dax Shepard
Oh, my heavens. That was a big event.
Monica Padman
It was a huge event.
Dax Shepard
Big event in events that happened within the event.
Monica Padman
Yes. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Tell, do tell.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Okay. Mary Poppins.
Monica Padman
Yes.
Dax Shepard
And I think some backstory is necessary and you can help me be objective here. But Delta's like. She's never been super into acting or musical theater or singing.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Like, just a mild interest. I think she's done a few little plays. I think she did last year's school play, but she just seems. She seems to be in it for the social aspect of it, which is great. So we all went. You, Anna, me, Kristen. Who else was in that one o' clock show?
Monica Padman
Kristen's mom and dad.
Dax Shepard
Oh, yeah. Kristen's mom and stepdad. And for the first two thirds of the play, no Delta.
Monica Padman
She's not in it.
Dax Shepard
She was not in it.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And you were directly behind us with Anna. And we were having some fun up until then. Right.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Because there's a lot of goof. It was the first run through of it. There's. Yeah, there's lots of mic errors. There's, you know, there's the expected stuff.
Monica Padman
Yeah, we've discussed the plays before.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. It's the whole. It's the whole school. So there's second graders out there, you know.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And everyone did a great job. Everyone did a great job. And it was also very fun.
Monica Padman
You know, you can hear the mics in the back. You know, the same, same. Same old stuff.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. All the standard. Fair. And I think even Anna said, is delta in this, you know, at some point.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Then she came out. She was Mrs. Anderson for people don't remember. And I'm not super well versed in Mary Poppins.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Meredith Poppins.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
She splits at one point and they bring in Mrs. Anders. And she's an old fashioned. Old.
Monica Padman
Is it Anders or Anderson?
Dax Shepard
Anders or Anderson? You know, take your pick.
Monica Padman
Okay.
Lena Waithe
Our tomato.
Monica Padman
Okay.
Dax Shepard
She comes out and she's a bitch. She's mean to the girls and she's shoving people around.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And right when she came out, she. Full commitment, full energy.
Monica Padman
Yes. She came out with a real presence.
Dax Shepard
A real presence, a real intention.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Her. Immediately, her dictation was off the charts.
Monica Padman
Yeah. They have to do accents, which I should. I just wish they would take that off these kids plates.
Dax Shepard
I think, you know, all in all, they did pretty darn good.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
I think if you got, like, adults to do it, that accents would have been much worse. Like just a random sampling of adults doing British accents.
Monica Padman
That's probably true.
Dax Shepard
I was like, it's not. I was expecting real.
Monica Padman
It could be worse.
Dax Shepard
Some real snafu.
Monica Padman
Yeah. I just feel like they should have taken that with what was going on. Like, they needed enough on their play. Yeah.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
But anyway, she did a great accent.
Dax Shepard
She did a great accent and you could understand everything she said. And she was projecting. She was loud.
Monica Padman
She was.
Dax Shepard
And then she has a song. Solo song. All right, maybe you take over now, because I might sound too subjective as a father.
Monica Padman
Well, I'm subjective, too. I don't know that I can. Very objective. Yeah. But no, she just did so. She just, like, had so much confidence. She sang it so well. She wasn't like, you know, you're kind of scared when these kids are singing.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Like, obviously anyone's singing. If in any play, it's like, oh, God, like, what if they mess up? Or what if they. It's very stressful. And she just knocked it out of the park and was so confident and, like, loud. Like, she belted, like, with her diaphragm. Like, she did it all right. And it was. Oh, it was so wonderful.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Two mega belts. It was the last one with her on top of a staircase. And she looked. Looked Possessed.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
She, like, the level of commitment, and she was screaming to the rooftops, and it was holding.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
I couldn't believe it.
Monica Padman
I couldn't believe it. I mean, from last year's play to this year's play. Major jump.
Dax Shepard
Oh, my goodness.
Monica Padman
Major jump.
Dax Shepard
Like, we have four performers in the family.
Monica Padman
Sure.
Dax Shepard
And she just threw down a performance that I think might top, you know, both Kristen and I's professional work.
Monica Padman
Well, okay. I don't want to. Now. I guess we are getting subjective, because that's not true. But. But it was like. I think last year at this time, we had this conversation here that was a little touchy, but I was like, she's not committed. Like, no.
Dax Shepard
Well, she was more. Her mission on that previous one, as we talked about, was to make sure everyone else was doing.
Lena Waithe
Yes.
Monica Padman
She was being very bossy, like, vocally, like, up on stage, like, tell people, get over here.
Dax Shepard
Get over here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Monica Padman
And I was like, oh, no. Like, I wish you would just commit.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
No.
Monica Padman
And then, boy, did she take the note. I mean, I didn't give it, but.
Dax Shepard
Right, right.
Monica Padman
She learned on her own. And she really just.
Dax Shepard
She brought the house down.
Monica Padman
It was so good.
Dax Shepard
It was so exciting.
Monica Padman
I said, we cheered like it was a Super Bowl.
Dax Shepard
Yes. I said, wow. Okay. So that's what the experience is for these people who have kids that are great athletes and, like, score a touchdown. I've really had that experience. Yet no touchdowns in the family. No. No goals scored. And this was. I get how the parents get addicted to it.
Monica Padman
Oh, yeah.
Lena Waithe
It was so exciting.
Monica Padman
I know. Yeah. We were rowdy, screaming for her. It did. Remind me. I told you this, but there's a picture of the state championship second year, I think, maybe first year. I don't remember, but there's a picture I. Of the parents. And, you know, everyone is just, like, freaking out. There's this picture of my dad is out of his. Wearing a hat. He's, like, wearing a boa. And. Yeah. They, like, hand these out or. So in my head, he has a boa. Maybe. Then he's like, yeah, up out of his seat screaming. And it does. It takes over. It takes over when your kid is, like, crushing. Yeah.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
It's so exciting.
Dax Shepard
And then the moment that was tied for that moment where she was on the steps at the end yelling from the bottom of her soul as loud as she could, was I was. And Lincoln was there all day volunteering to help all the girls backstage get in their outfits.
Monica Padman
And as an. As an alumni.
Dax Shepard
Yes, yes. And I had this, you know, 30% anxiety over. Okay, well, one child has already declared this as her path. The younger sibling now has just come out and crushed.
Monica Padman
Oh, wow. Okay.
Dax Shepard
What will this reaction be?
Lena Waithe
You know, what will.
Dax Shepard
Seen her get so much attention and praise from us. Do. I had some anxiety about that.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And I think you were standing there.
Monica Padman
It was.
Dax Shepard
So when Lincoln ran out and they met each other in. In the.
Monica Padman
Gave her a huge hug, and she
Dax Shepard
picked her up off the ground and squeezed her, and she was genuinely so pumped for.
Monica Padman
She was so proud of her. It was so sweet. It was so sweet.
Dax Shepard
My heart was just destroyed at that moment. I'm like, oh, yeah, siblings, man.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
It's more important than anything else.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
What?
Lena Waithe
Well, no, you know, I don't know. You don't know about that statement.
Monica Padman
Yeah. So it was.
Dax Shepard
Did you ever see Neil crush at anything and did you give him the full.
Monica Padman
No.
Dax Shepard
No. Okay.
Monica Padman
Only now, I mean, he's crushing at father. He's about fire.
Dax Shepard
Fatherhood.
Monica Padman
Yeah. No, no. I was really hard on him.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
But he needed it.
Monica Padman
Yeah, he needed it. He's. Look at him now. He's doing great.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
My mothering. But yeah. No, it was really, really sweet, and I loved it. And then there was a five o', clock, which I didn't go to, but there was a big incident.
Dax Shepard
Yes. So we're at the five o', clock, the curtains down.
Lena Waithe
We're.
Monica Padman
We're intermission, right?
Dax Shepard
It wasn't intermission. It was just between some scenes where there was a little down time.
Monica Padman
Oh.
Dax Shepard
And so the curtain was down. And then all of a sudden, you hear from the audience this horrendous crashing sound.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And it's like. It's substantial. Right. The. The kind of ground shook.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And my only thought was, like, oh, did one of the sets. Because they had pretty big sets on stage. Like two story sets. Did one fall forward?
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And oh, my God, where are the kids?
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And so I'm thinking this. And then Kristen jumps up and goes backstage because she's like, you know, clearly something's happened. You can hear kids back there. Like, they weren't screaming, but there were noises.
Monica Padman
Okay.
Dax Shepard
So she goes back there, scopes out, comes back, and she's like, you are not gonna believe the size of this tree that just fell into the school. And so after the play, I went and looked back, and there's this, like, you know, like, cement balcony with, like, a really huge t. Steel railing, maybe a loading dockish thing off the back of the Gym. And this enormous tree, like the width of our oak tree in the front yard. Like the. The trunk had to be like 36 inches in diameter, maybe more. It just exploded and it fell in all these directions. It bent like the. The big fence post size railing.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Was just crunk pulled like a taco. Huge branches on there. A table that they were all sitting on.
Monica Padman
So scary.
Dax Shepard
10 minutes before was flattened. It's crazy. And I was like, oh my God. I just was like, yeah. My first thought was, oh, this is why it's completely pointless to worry about your children because you're not even gonna think to worry about. I hope a random tree doesn't fall on them. On the playground of the school.
Monica Padman
Some people do think, like, I though, but it's almost too much.
Dax Shepard
It's not. Generally people are worried about kidnapping and all these other things.
Monica Padman
That's true. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And it's like, okay, so thus far, the closest call we've ever had was just a tree exploded in the backyard of the school.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
I mean, freak accidents do happen.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Yeah. It's very scary and like, you just
Dax Shepard
don't even know what to worry about. That was my thing.
Monica Padman
Yeah. That's a good takeaway.
Dax Shepard
Like, yeah, that's crazy. That was almost a fucking newsworthy disaster.
Monica Padman
Oh my God. That would have been so.
Dax Shepard
It was crazy.
Monica Padman
But everyone will have a different takeaway. Someone will be like, I knew God was real. You know, Someone will say Simmy probably. Yeah. There's. There's a lot of takeaways. You just choose. Yeah. You get to pick.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. I mean, I don't think there's much meaning behind it for me other than just, oh, it's a good reminder that, like, life's that way and. And it's really pointless to even worry about anything.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
That's a great example of confirmation bias. Right. It's like, whatever. Your overarching theory on life is everything. Every bit of proof will file in and support that.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
So it's like for you, that that proves the world scarier.
Monica Padman
Well, I didn't say that or I
Dax Shepard
sorry, didn't mean to give you that.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Label.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. And then for me, it immediately confirms, like, yeah, what a waste of time to worry.
Monica Padman
I don't, I don't think I thought, like, the world's scarier. I just feel like, yeah, things go wrong all the time.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
But also I think like, wow, so lucky. Just like, oh, God. Yeah, lucky. And we're just missing things all the time.
Dax Shepard
Oh, yeah.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Just like constantly avoiding catastrophe. All the time.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
But. Yeah, like yesterday I was walking down the street, and there were so many, many cop cars, but they weren't regular cop cars. They were all, like, just, like, black, Unmarked. Unmarked. But then one was, like, on, like, headlights or whatever in the back, but there were so many in a row.
Dax Shepard
Where was this at?
Monica Padman
On Western. And I was just walking by, noticing all these cars, and. And I was like, oh, well, something is going on. Something probably bad. Yeah.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
And I thought, oh, do I. Should I go home? Like, this is right where I'm about to be.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
And you're going to Cara. Yeah, I was walking to Cara, and so it was next to Cara by
Dax Shepard
the Baskin Robbins or that weird apartment building between. That sketchy apartment building.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Monica Padman
And I was like, I mean, there could be a bomb in there. Should I go home? But then I was like, I mean, they'll probably get it, tell us to leave. Like, they. I. I guess I trust that someone in charge would tell us to leave there. And there was a cop on the street, and he just said, hi when I walked by. So I was like, I can't be that bad, right?
Dax Shepard
He didn't say, ma', am, go on the other side of the street.
Monica Padman
Exactly. Or you shouldn't be here. Ma', am. Ma', am, you shouldn't.
Dax Shepard
You didn't ask him what was cracking?
Monica Padman
I wanted to. I should have. And then. Because when we left, that's still there. And someone was yelling at them because cars were blocked in and he was yelling, Yelling. And I didn't want to bother them.
Dax Shepard
They're probably executing a search warrant.
Monica Padman
He said. When I. I heard one of the cops say something, like, when we finished the invest. We're almost finished with the investigation.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
So.
Dax Shepard
So someone went missing.
Monica Padman
And I was like, maybe it's a bomb or maybe it's a jumper or maybe it's a big drug. Like, probably a big drug situation or hijack sex work. It could be a sex situation, a negotiation, stand up hostage negotiation. I mean, there could have been so many things. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And you'd be like, I wish he would have asked because he would have told you you're a cute young girl. He would have, like, wanted to tell
Monica Padman
you, thought about it.
Dax Shepard
You'd have made it a little more dangerous than it was. Like, yeah, we just, you know, we. You probably, like, you know, fluffed it up a little bit.
Monica Padman
Officer, should I go home?
Dax Shepard
Am I safe to go home? Or should I stay next to you?
Monica Padman
Will you protect me?
Dax Shepard
I feel safer next to you?
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
He's like, I'm just coming out. I was first one in. So they told me, go ahead and have 10 minute break. Which is why I'm out here. But I was.
Monica Padman
But normally I'm in there.
Dax Shepard
I was, I was first one in there. Once I saw it was not dangerous, then I was.
Monica Padman
It's not dangerous.
Dax Shepard
Well, it could be. Could always be. Could always get dangerous. Probably. You want to stay close.
Monica Padman
Oh, okay.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. What are you doing for dinner?
Monica Padman
I'm hanging out with my friend Jess. You'd love him.
Dax Shepard
Oh, you can go. All right. Have fun. I think we're all wrapped up here.
Monica Padman
Okay, this is interesting. On okay. Dates. So we have a friend who just went on a first date.
Dax Shepard
Oh, we do.
Monica Padman
And, oh, this person brought me up a few times because I'm in stories.
Dax Shepard
Sure.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
And then at some point the girl. A girl. It was a girl on the date. It's a lesbian on a date with a girl. Okay, okay. And she brought me up.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
And then at some point the girl. Girl on the date said, should I know who that is?
Dax Shepard
Oh, okay.
Monica Padman
And then my friend said, oh, she's my friend. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I. Then she was telling me this and I was like, yeah, this is tricky. It's. It can get tricky if you're bringing up your friends a lot on a date, but they don't really know the backstory. They don't know like the level of
Dax Shepard
friendship or whether either part party are compatibly.
Monica Padman
Exactly.
Dax Shepard
Sexually attracted to one another. Yeah. If you're bringing up Jess all the time.
Monica Padman
Exactly.
Dax Shepard
They don't know he's gay. You got to go, my gay friend Jess. You go, my gay friend Jess.
Monica Padman
I know.
Dax Shepard
She should have said my straight friend Monica.
Monica Padman
I know, but that seems like a weird thing to say. Like. Oh, I mean, he comes up like he, He's. He comes up. Right. And so, yeah, I guess I have to say, like, oh, my. My friend. I think I'll just say my friend, friend Jess and maybe it'll be obvious he's gay.
Dax Shepard
I mean, I don't know. I don't know. To me it's obvious he's gay. But I met him.
Monica Padman
You know him.
Lena Waithe
I know.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He at least has a name that could pass as a female.
Monica Padman
Oh, right. That is true.
Dax Shepard
But if you're talking about Beefy Burger or anything penis related, he'll.
Monica Padman
Don't think I'm probably going to bring up Beefy Burger yet.
Lena Waithe
Yet.
Monica Padman
It will come up. It will come Up. But anyway. Yeah. It's like a weird thing about how much you talk about the other people in your life on a date. On a date. I think it's only the opposite sex if you're straight and same sex if you're gay.
Dax Shepard
I think it's only a thing if you're talking about your ex a lot,
Lena Waithe
which is also fine on a first day.
Dax Shepard
There are versions of it that's are totally fine.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
If you still have complicated feelings about your ex.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
It's not the place to discuss that. Nor is it this new person. Their. Their duty to comfort you through that.
Monica Padman
Right. There are all these rules if you've
Dax Shepard
been with someone for a decade and you're talking about your life.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And then when you're gonna ignore the last 10 years of your life, you know, like, of course, if you were
Monica Padman
with someone, come up.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. I don't think that's a big deal.
Monica Padman
I don't think it is a big deal either for me. But I think a lot of people would say that's wrong. Like everyone has.
Dax Shepard
These people are really insecure and that's their issue.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
I don't think the thought of someone have. Having had an ex is too disturbing for you.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
You have some insecurities.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
That's not. It's not that other person's.
Monica Padman
I know. I think I am kind of like. I want to know.
Dax Shepard
Sure. All the details.
Monica Padman
Yeah, I do.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
But I don't want them to ask me, so I think I'm just leaving that off. I think it's like a. It's just like, hey, what kind of
Dax Shepard
questions would you want to ask?
Monica Padman
Not talk about any of our past.
Dax Shepard
Okay. But we're. We're now on a date. We're on a date.
Monica Padman
Okay. Hi.
Dax Shepard
Well, I like, further along, we're dropping into like the. The I want to know exactly, like what kind of info you're interested in. About the ex. Yeah.
Monica Padman
Because I think so. Well, you have to bring her up, I guess.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Well, we had to. We were sharing our dog and then it just got kind of ridiculous. And finally I was like, just. You can have snookers.
Monica Padman
Ah, that was probably hard. I have a friend who is going through that too. It's really.
Dax Shepard
A boyfriend?
Monica Padman
No, no, a girlfriend. A girlfriend. A girlfriend of mine. Yeah. But it's tough. It's.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
She's gay.
Dax Shepard
No, she was straight. She was my girlfriend.
Monica Padman
No, my friend is gay.
Dax Shepard
Oh, okay.
Monica Padman
So don't worry.
Dax Shepard
I was hoping you would. I would figure out what your. What you want to know about the X. I know. Well, what do you want to know about an ex?
Monica Padman
I don't know. We have to practice.
Dax Shepard
I think you want to know what they look like physically, don't you? No, I actually don't.
Monica Padman
I don't.
Dax Shepard
Are you sure? Well, you don't want to find out if they were Indian.
Monica Padman
Oh, cuz I know you got a
Dax Shepard
whole thing about that.
Monica Padman
No, I don't want. If he. Okay, do it again. You might need to.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, okay. Yeah. So anyways, we had booked this trip and, like, we talked about going on it together, but I was like, I don't want to be in Bombay with my ex. So I was like, you can just take someone else.
Monica Padman
Oh, yeah.
Dax Shepard
And I transferred my ticket.
Monica Padman
Okay. Oh, my God. First of all, that would not to me. I'm not like, oh, so she was Indian just because you were going there?
Dax Shepard
She trying to t tempt you in that direction?
Monica Padman
Oh, have you. I don't even. I wouldn't even ask.
Dax Shepard
I would say.
Monica Padman
I would say.
Dax Shepard
Have you been to India?
Lena Waithe
How long have you.
Monica Padman
How long were you guys together?
Dax Shepard
You don't think. You go, have you been to India before?
Monica Padman
I mean, you don't care.
Dax Shepard
You just want to know about the girl now.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
Well, I almost was about to say, oh, my gosh. I went to India last year on this kind of random, crazy trip, and it was serious. It was so. It was so cool because I've only been one time before when I was little, and it was really cool.
Dax Shepard
Oh, are you Indian?
Monica Padman
I am. Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Well, I thought you were Lebanese.
Monica Padman
Oh, no, no, no, I'm not. Well, I mean, I. I was born in Georgia and raised there, but my parents are Indian.
Dax Shepard
Oh, cool.
Monica Padman
How long were you with your ex? Or how long were you with her?
Dax Shepard
Five years.
Monica Padman
Wow. Wow.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. From. From 46 to 51.
Monica Padman
What happened? Do you mind me asking? Sorry if that's too private.
Lena Waithe
God.
Dax Shepard
Well, I mean, what happened? Like, a million things happened.
Monica Padman
Really?
Dax Shepard
Yeah. As happens in a relationship.
Monica Padman
Yeah, it's hard.
Dax Shepard
Like, I could list things and it'd probably just be me blaming her, but I'm sure I half the reason that, if not more. Yeah. Yeah.
Monica Padman
That's evolved of you.
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
What are you gonna order?
Dax Shepard
She's. Oh, you're off of it. You know, the old, she young. Is she Indian?
Monica Padman
I'm not asking that.
Dax Shepard
I never asked.
Monica Padman
Okay. I. I was on a date once where it came up, but I didn't ask. He brought it up.
Dax Shepard
What did he say?
Monica Padman
He said, like, I'M crazy Indian and her family and something about an Indian princess. And I was like, I hate this. I absolutely hate this.
Dax Shepard
Oh, wow.
Monica Padman
If anyone says Indian princess princess to me, you're not for me.
Dax Shepard
Well, what is the stereotype exactly?
Monica Padman
I don't know.
Dax Shepard
I know. Of the Jewish American princess. That's a. That's a stereotype.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Jap. It offends both people. Two groups of people at once. It's a twofer.
Monica Padman
Even if someone said jap to me, I'd be like, I wish you didn't say that.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, sure.
Monica Padman
You know, someone I. I love said it recently and I was like, were
Dax Shepard
they referring to a Jewish American princess or a Japanese person?
Monica Padman
Oh, a Jewish.
Dax Shepard
You didn't even get that part.
Monica Padman
Oh, yeah, I forgot.
Dax Shepard
Oh, gosh. Okay.
Monica Padman
Jewish. I thought you were saying it offends princesses and Jewish.
Dax Shepard
No, I don't care about offending princesses. They're. They're tiny.
Monica Padman
Your wife is a princess.
Dax Shepard
Not a real one.
Monica Padman
She is the closest we got. She played a.
Dax Shepard
There's actual princesses.
Monica Padman
Oh, yeah, I forgot.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Okay, well, I don't want to offend them either, but I can live with that.
Dax Shepard
Like picking the group. Talk about punching up or down royalty.
Monica Padman
Yeah, yeah.
Dax Shepard
Punching up or royalty.
Monica Padman
I'm with. It's more the Jewish part. I didn't love when. When they said it.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, well, I'm from a very Jewish area of Michigan.
Monica Padman
I know.
Dax Shepard
So that term was used a lot.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
And quite often by Jewish people.
Monica Padman
Right. Well, they're allowed, but this person wasn't Jewish. Anyway. Okay, if you said. If you said it to me on a date, say it somehow.
Dax Shepard
Jap.
Monica Padman
Oh, are you Jewish?
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Oh, cool.
Dax Shepard
Hard to be Jewish right now.
Monica Padman
Oh, my gosh. I know. I. I feel. I feel like the world is nuts.
Dax Shepard
By the way, the first death, if the first date has somehow strayed into Palestine, Israel, it's a bad going.
Monica Padman
The bathroom.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, go. Oh, my God. I'm going to. I got to go. I got you heard of talking. I'm going to go Tonka all over the floor in the bathroom.
Monica Padman
I want to go to my.
Dax Shepard
Because I prefer doing that than having this conversation.
Monica Padman
Well, yeah, no, I know, I know. But, you know, I do get deep and I. I do worry sometimes that, like, I get us to a place we're not supposed to go too soon.
Dax Shepard
Oh, well, that can be fun.
Monica Padman
I know. But then it's like, not fun because then. Yeah, we're talking about. I don't think what I know so far, which Oh, I guess I should tell people I'm going on a date. That should be clear.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
From what I know so far, I just don't. I think he's very chill.
Lena Waithe
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Monica Padman
And I don't think we're going to about talk. Talk about global news, global politics.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, that's good. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. What if he's super into crypto and he wants to tell you about crypto the whole time? That's a hard one. Even if everything else was like a thumbs up.
Monica Padman
Yeah, I think I was. Would say.
Dax Shepard
What would you say?
Monica Padman
I'd say I go.
Dax Shepard
Have you heard of belizeum? Oh, it's a one to one currency. It's so strong and promising. Oh, I haven't heard for $13 a coin and it's already up to 13.90.
Monica Padman
That's cool. Do you. How do you know Ben McKenzie? Have you ever heard of Ben McKenzie? He was from the OC but he's also.
Dax Shepard
I never. I never saw those. See, but I heard it was really.
Monica Padman
Yeah, I actually also didn't watch it.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
But he was a big actor on. On that show and he's also an expert in crypto and he was just on.
Dax Shepard
What's he. What's he. What's his holdings? Which ones is he into?
Monica Padman
Well, he's actually pretty critical of it.
Dax Shepard
Oh. Oh, he's a hater. Well, he's just mad he didn't get in when bitcoin was. Maybe he's just jealous.
Monica Padman
Yeah, maybe.
Dax Shepard
But I do have a podcast.
Monica Padman
I do. I do do. Yeah, I do.
Lena Waithe
Are you.
Dax Shepard
Are you Lebanese?
Monica Padman
Oh, no, I'm not. I'm not. I. Yeah. Do you think only Lebanese people have podcasts? That's. That's an interesting leap. Hey, I gotta go Tonka.
Dax Shepard
Oh, that's what you parked in a lot called Tonka or something.
Monica Padman
That's when you poop in your car.
Dax Shepard
Oh, so. Oh, you're going outside to poop in your car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I come?
Monica Padman
Oh, you're. You're.
Dax Shepard
Well, that could salvage the whole. Yeah, that sounds.
Monica Padman
I got perked up.
Dax Shepard
That's wrecking.
Lena Waithe
I come.
Monica Padman
It would probably be a crypto guy that was into it.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
So it all makes sense, you know, Trade offs. Yeah. Everyone. No one's perfect.
Dax Shepard
You're not going to get it all.
Monica Padman
No one's perfect.
Dax Shepard
He's got to. You got to get the right things. Anywho, I mean, full honesty.
Monica Padman
Oh, Rob, he. He might be here.
Dax Shepard
Lucas or the breast Milk guy.
Monica Padman
Breast milk guy.
Dax Shepard
Colostrum man.
Monica Padman
Rob, is Colostomy going to pick up another drink for us using his id? It's not alcohol.
Dax Shepard
Full honesty.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
I'm on a date.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And the girl goes, if you excuse me, I have got to go shit in my car. Dude, I would be so into that. No, I would. I would be like, wow, who's this person?
Monica Padman
You would.
Dax Shepard
No one. I mean. Yes.
Monica Padman
Okay, listen. You would be like, who is this person?
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
Monica Padman
I'm sure you'd be intrigued.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
But you would not on a fir. You would be like, she's crazy.
Dax Shepard
Well, no, I would have some follow up questions. Okay, so tell me.
Monica Padman
Oh. Oh, my God. I'll be right back.
Dax Shepard
Okay. Where are you going?
Monica Padman
Waiting. I have to. God, I, I have to go. Tonka.
Dax Shepard
What's, what's Tonka?
Monica Padman
When you poop in your car. Okay. And I have to go right now.
Dax Shepard
Oh, my God. You have to poop in your car, right?
Monica Padman
I do. I do.
Lena Waithe
Okay, hold on.
Monica Padman
Do you.
Lena Waithe
Waiting.
Dax Shepard
Well, I don't mind waiting, but can I just ask you. I know, I can see it's pressure.
Monica Padman
Yeah. Yeah.
Lena Waithe
It's.
Dax Shepard
Why, why go in your car and not the bathroom here?
Monica Padman
Oh, I'm just like so uncomfortable. I, I'm really uncomfortable pooping in front of other people.
Dax Shepard
Oh, sure. That's.
Monica Padman
Yeah, people just have like a privacy thing and I know I'm not going to make it home.
Dax Shepard
How often do you do this? Every time you got to go to a normal bathroom.
Monica Padman
It's only happened once. It almost happened again. And I can tell it's going to happen right now.
Dax Shepard
Okay, I'll. How about I come out and I'll just hang by the. Make sure no one bothers you. No, because you don't want anyone, like, knocking on your window or if I see a dude peeping, I'll be like, bro, give her some privacy.
Monica Padman
Okay, that's really, really nice, but the whole.
Dax Shepard
And I can hold your bag too.
Monica Padman
Oh, you don't have a. It's. There's no bag. You just like, poop on this.
Dax Shepard
But that bag next to your feet. Do you want me to hold that while you're.
Monica Padman
That's really kind. I, I. The whole.
Dax Shepard
Let me be lookout for you. This will be fun.
Monica Padman
No, the whole issue is privacy.
Dax Shepard
Okay. And I'm going to look the other way, though.
Monica Padman
Okay. You're being, you're being a little pushy.
Dax Shepard
Oh, you think I'm a weirdo now or. I tell you something, you're about to go Shit in your car. So why don't you fucking back off the judgments, tootsie. Now let's go grab your bag. This is a great day, dude. It's so memorable. And he would be like, cut to the three years later, I can see him with a microphone in his hand and his tuxedo on, and I'll go. I knew there was something special about Monica when on our first date, she looked at me and said, if you'll excuse me, I have to, Tonka. And for those of you who don't know Grandma Jane, Grandpa Bill, Tonka is when a woman uses her car to
Monica Padman
defecate it as a toilet.
Dax Shepard
And I thought, I should get out of here and run. No, I'm gonna provide lookout services. And I'm so glad I did.
Monica Padman
Aww. People's crying.
Dax Shepard
People would cry.
Monica Padman
They would also throw up at the
Dax Shepard
people at your wedding. Fuck. I hope this all goes down, man. This sounds like a great.
Monica Padman
Can you please knock on wood? You better not hope that on my date. I have to. Tonka. That is literally worst case scenario.
Dax Shepard
Unless he loves it. And then you guys have fast forwarded to like such a level of intimacy and trust and connection.
Monica Padman
I mean, if he has a Tonka.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Interesting. Not me. I don't want.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
I don't want to be the girl who's in her car all the time. Okay, it happened one time.
Dax Shepard
Not all the time. No one wants to be there.
Monica Padman
I know, but you're the one. You're kind of manifesting it for me. You wanted me to put a bag in my car.
Dax Shepard
Trash bag.
Lena Waithe
Why not?
Dax Shepard
You just act like that's where you put your trash.
Monica Padman
That's manifesting. That's manifest destiny.
Dax Shepard
Do you know if you're driving together, you're meeting there. Okay, that's supposed to be the safe thing to do.
Monica Padman
I don't know if it's safe or not, but one time I was on a date where the man picked me up the mail. And at first I was like, oh, I like that.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
And as soon as he picked me up, I hated it.
Dax Shepard
Oh.
Monica Padman
I was like, I really don't like being trapped in the car. I don't. Now I'm aware of how he's driving.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
Me precious cargo.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
And at one point he was just staring and I didn't. Then I was like, you need to look at the road. I didn't like any of it. So. So we're just gonna meet there.
Dax Shepard
Okay, great. What though? How do we handle a nighttime.
Monica Padman
He's not. We're not doing his first date, but
Dax Shepard
you guys can kiss. If he drives you home, then he's gotta get out and, like, open your door and clean out the tonka from your backseat, put it in your trash can, and then he might wanna give you a kiss goodnight before you go inside.
Monica Padman
If he wants to kiss me after I've tonka'd.
Dax Shepard
What?
Lena Waithe
Yeah. What a stud.
Monica Padman
Well, a stud and kink. He's kinky. That's pretty cool.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we like pretty cool. Okay.
Monica Padman
All right. Anyway, some facts.
Dax Shepard
That's just a fact.
Monica Padman
Okay. Okay. She talks about half man the show, and you've since watched it.
Dax Shepard
I'm glad you're bringing this up.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
She was dead, right.
Monica Padman
She loved it.
Dax Shepard
I love it. And now I even see what she was saying. Because at the time, remember, I think I said, like, yeah, you and I watched things differently. Like, you're recognizing when someone's being represented. Like, that's important to you and you'll always notice it. But anyone would notice it.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Like, the show is. Is that type of show.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Where it is. It's exploring some weird shit that goes down in most boyhoods that I'm aware of.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Just weird. Boys are so fucked. I don't.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
I don't think girls know how weird boys are. Little boys, there's like a whole window where they're so bizarre. I cannot tell you how many. These boys were constantly trying to show me their penises. And they wanted a sword fight and stuff. And, like, they just don't. They have these penises and they don't know what they're doing.
Monica Padman
They don't know what to do.
Dax Shepard
They are getting. They want to get them out.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Smack them around. I was just like, I don't. I'm not into all this sword fighting in a hunt.
Monica Padman
You weren't?
Dax Shepard
No.
Monica Padman
Oh, because you were already.
Dax Shepard
I think because I had already been molested. Maybe it was like I didn't like the whole thing.
Monica Padman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when. When we were in, like, hunting and gathering and we were naked all the time, I bet they were playing with them. It was like. It was just normal.
Dax Shepard
This is when I read this really interesting article and it was about how cultural everything is to the degree of molesting.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Here. It means one thing. It's always inappropriate and it's always some kind of, like, deviant sexual behavior. Whereas they were paralleling it with this group, this hunting, gathering group that, like, when they see little kids, they juggle their balls.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
As a greeting.
Lena Waithe
Oh, wow.
Dax Shepard
The dudes aren't perverts. There's nothing sexual going on. Yeah, they. They do the same activity that here we would. It would be trauma.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
And it's just so interesting that how the power of.
Monica Padman
I know.
Dax Shepard
And it's all about, does it induce shame or not? And in that culture, it doesn't because everyone is getting greeted by getting their balls fondled.
Monica Padman
I know, but that is weird, though, because innately, though, it is sexual because that is also a way to get aroused.
Dax Shepard
But again, because the. The. The culture so strong and the context is so strong. It's not. They don't get aroused. It's not a sexual activity. I didn't grow up there, so I have my thing.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
Anyways, I'm off on a long trajectory here. I can't remember what. We left base, but Half man is so, so good.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
With similar tones being explored as DTF St. Louis. Like, that relationship between Bateman and Harboro was so intimate.
Monica Padman
Yeah. It was male friendly.
Dax Shepard
Constantly hugging and stretching each other, breathing on each other. It's just like this level of intimacy that certainly I didn't see on TV growing up.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
And by the time I did see it on TV growing up, it was explicitly sexual between two homosexuals.
Monica Padman
Exactly.
Dax Shepard
This is this weird zone.
Monica Padman
I know of this.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Even though you weren't. It wasn't represented. You still did it with Aaron.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. So, like, Aaron and I had a very, very intimate, very physically touchy friendship.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
But no penis business. There were no places coming out but you snuggled. Yeah, but nothing. There was no weird sexual component. I'm talking about the behavior that had all. It was like this weird sexual.
Monica Padman
Well, Bateman and David Harbour didn't have any sexual.
Dax Shepard
They didn't. But it was confusing. And there were times where it seemed they were both confused by the intimacy.
Monica Padman
Sure, sure, sure.
Dax Shepard
And then he's even gonna hook up with a dude or he's open to. If he can give a guy an erection, he'll like that just because he'll be desired.
Monica Padman
Right.
Dax Shepard
So just getting into all this fun gray area. So Nate and I loved that show. Of course. As you did you.
Monica Padman
I loved it.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. But we were talking about it at lunch and he goes, dude, the other show. That's even more extreme than that that I been watching. I want you to catch up so we can start watching together. Is Half Man. So I did. And then the last Friday when we had the day off, Nate and I went to lunch and then we came and got in the theater room and Watched two episodes back to back, and it. Was it fun, Me, like, being in my 20s or something? We were just watching TV.
Monica Padman
That's really fun. Okay, quick, quickly. Is Adam the one. Adam Mosseri, the one on Instagram with glasses who sends updates? I mean, I think so.
Dax Shepard
Oh, yeah.
Monica Padman
Okay. He has glasses.
Dax Shepard
That's definitely what she's talking about. He makes tons of posts directly to camera, letting users know of new features.
Monica Padman
Yeah. Regularly post direct updates about the platform. He's so fun.
Dax Shepard
He's so cute.
Monica Padman
He said we were his favorite food.
Dax Shepard
He's so smart, too.
Monica Padman
Yes. Who is the model with the Gap tooth name? Lauren. Lauren Hutton, iconic model. Something came up, and you said, everything worth having. Like, everything worth having what? Yeah, basically. And it reminded me that in high school, Cali's mom got her this little compass necklace. It was from Kohl's, and on the back, it said, there are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Okay, good.
Monica Padman
And I loved that. And then they bought me the necklace because I loved it so much.
Dax Shepard
Oh, that's nice.
Monica Padman
And I love that saying.
Dax Shepard
There's a dude in AA who has a similar saying that he says all the time. Almost every Sherry says it, and I love it every single time, which is I found out that the shortcut is the quickest way to the back of the line.
Monica Padman
I like that. Similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dax Shepard
Shortcuts. The quickest way to the back of the line. Although it'd be quicker to just go to the back of the line before you do the shortcut. So it's not. It doesn't hold up.
Monica Padman
Yeah, because, like, if you're. If you're cutting the line, which is the shortcut, you're not at the back.
Dax Shepard
Well, the point is the shortcuts never work, and you always have to go back and start the way.
Monica Padman
I understand the point.
Dax Shepard
Okay. Yeah, we'll stick with yours.
Monica Padman
I like mine.
Dax Shepard
What was yours?
Monica Padman
There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.
Lena Waithe
Okay.
Monica Padman
I love it. Cole's cash.
Dax Shepard
Cole's cash, man.
Monica Padman
Callie also got a tattoo of a compass. That was her first tattoo. She got a compass on her ankle. It was in college. She has since gotten it removed.
Dax Shepard
She has.
Monica Padman
She didn't like the way it looked in pictures when she was, like, in heels and stuff.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
Okay.
Dax Shepard
Compass is a very popular tattoo.
Lena Waithe
Is it?
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
I don't know anyone else with one. I mean, I don't know a lot of people with tattoos other than you.
Dax Shepard
Not your scene.
Monica Padman
And her. She and Anna. Okay. I know a lot of people Charlie, Rob, Natalie. Natalie. Everyone has tattoos, actually. Erica. Wow. Yeah. Charlie.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
Okay.
Dax Shepard
Matt.
Monica Padman
Whoa.
Dax Shepard
At least half Mike Nichols.
Monica Padman
Yeah, at least half, my friends. That's probably right. Mike Nichols says about conversation. A conversation falls into three categories. A negotiation, a seduction or a fight.
Dax Shepard
A negotiation, a seduction or a fight. This is in. This is in theatrical realm, right.
Monica Padman
This isn't every scene or. Or conversation.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
It says. Or conversation falls in.
Dax Shepard
Has to be one of those three things.
Monica Padman
Fight, a seduction.
Dax Shepard
But life doesn't have to. A lot of conversations doesn't have to.
Monica Padman
But I think he's kind of saying, like, it is like he's representing life and like, that is what happens in lifetime life as we know it.
Dax Shepard
Network.
Monica Padman
Yeah. Okay. The catchphrase from her at&t commercial. Rob said it in the interview. Just okay. Is not okay. She think thinks there's another. That's what I'm seeing too.
Lena Waithe
I think I found another one too.
Dax Shepard
After. Let me your way right away.
Lena Waithe
More for your thing.
Dax Shepard
Spots. I think was her.
Monica Padman
Oh, get more for your things.
Lena Waithe
Let me see. What the.
Monica Padman
That's not a good phrase.
Dax Shepard
That's abstract.
Monica Padman
That's not a good phrase. If AT&T wants to hire me, I will say the shortcut line.
Dax Shepard
Okay. Only that line.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
Oh, wow. I'll say anything you want. @&t. Actually, I will too. Not to out compete you, but yeah.
Monica Padman
God. God.
Dax Shepard
You could hire. You could hire Monica. You should know she's only going to say one sentence.
Monica Padman
They should hire me because a long time ago, I think. Have I done an AT&T commercial?
Dax Shepard
I'm sure you.
Monica Padman
I maybe have. But I do know one of the commercials I Lost was an AT&T commercial. And it was down to me and this. My neck nemesis. And she was my nemesis. I lost. I lost a couple roles to this girl.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
She wasn't Indian or Lebanese.
Dax Shepard
Did you end up knowing her? I like your chat with her at auditions. Hey, you beat me out. I bet you beat her out a few times too.
Monica Padman
Maybe I forget her name, but she was like, up and she was, like, becoming a thing.
Dax Shepard
Huh?
Monica Padman
And I forget her name, but she beat me out for this AT&T, I think, like, campaign.
Dax Shepard
Okay.
Monica Padman
So when I was upset and I knew the directors well, I had worked with them a couple times, really loved them, and so that was upsetting.
Dax Shepard
Yeah, that was a.
Monica Padman
That was a hard one.
Dax Shepard
You lost a couple hundred grand, probably. Fuck.
Monica Padman
Anyway, so they should make up for that oh, AT&T shirt. They should hire me now as a voiceover. And like, now you're getting bigger bang for your buck.
Dax Shepard
I only say one thing, but you're getting a bigger bang for your buck.
Monica Padman
That's right.
Dax Shepard
Yeah. Trade offs.
Monica Padman
I have a voice for radio and AT&T commercials. That's what they say.
Dax Shepard
That's what they say.
Monica Padman
Yeah.
Dax Shepard
You have a face for AT&T.
Monica Padman
I have a face for radio. Okay. I have a face for radio and a voice for AT&T commercials. That's what they say.
Dax Shepard
That's what they always say.
Monica Padman
Yeah. All right. Well, that is all.
Dax Shepard
Those were the facts.
Monica Padman
That is all.
Dax Shepard
Well, I love Lena.
Monica Padman
Me too. Great.
Dax Shepard
I love her.
Monica Padman
Great ep. Love her.
Dax Shepard
She's so lovable.
Monica Padman
She is. She's very smart and wise.
Dax Shepard
Yeah.
Monica Padman
And interesting and accomplished. And accomplished. She's good chatter. She's good chatter.
Dax Shepard
All right. Love you.
Monica Padman
I love you.
This episode features writer, producer, and actor Lena Waithe in a remarkably open, insightful, and wide-ranging conversation. The discussion zigzags through themes of identity, artistry, representation in media, mentorship, vulnerability, and the mechanics of TV creation. Lena, Dax, and Monica explore how personal and creative lives intersect, the pressure and politics of being a "public figure," and what it means to be authentically oneself in an industry full of expectations and assumptions. The episode also grapples with aging, relationships, mentoring, and the future of storytelling across different media.
On Art & Audience:
“So many straight white dudes come up to me, tell me how much they love [the Thanksgiving episode of Master of None]… that's the trick: yes, it's specific, but it's also universal.” – Lena (22:39–22:55)
On the Trap of Stardom:
“[Celebrity] is so fleeting. You’re a has-been that never was in, like, a year.” – Lena (09:57)
On Showrunning:
“Getting your own TV show is like being beaten to death with your own dream. And nothing is truer than that.” – Lena (58:56)
On Relationships:
“You have to really ask yourself, what life do I actually want?... I want to be with this person. I want to have this house... But then I didn’t ask myself, but where do you want to be in five years? Like, really?” – Lena (77:53)
On Mentorship & Parenting:
“This is a person that is a reflection of you, but also you want to make sure that they're not a carbon copy of you.” – Lena (67:12)
The episode is candid, lively, and evocative, brimming with self-reflection, affectionate banter, and flashes of irreverent humor—true to the conversational, trusting dynamic typical of Armchair Expert. Lena and Dax both lean into honesty, growth-through-messiness, and genuine mutual curiosity.
This episode is a must for anyone interested in creativity, identity, and the realities behind the glamour of film and television. Lena Waithe is honest about the joys and costs of her path, offers insights into being a black queer woman in Hollywood, and shares wisdom applicable to art, life, and relationships of all kinds.
Summary by your podcast expert.