Lena Waithe

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Lena Waithe (June 1, 2026)

Podcast overview, key topics, insights, memorable quotes, and important timestamps

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode features writer, producer, and actor Lena Waithe in a remarkably open, insightful, and wide-ranging conversation. The discussion zigzags through themes of identity, artistry, representation in media, mentorship, vulnerability, and the mechanics of TV creation. Lena, Dax, and Monica explore how personal and creative lives intersect, the pressure and politics of being a "public figure," and what it means to be authentically oneself in an industry full of expectations and assumptions. The episode also grapples with aging, relationships, mentoring, and the future of storytelling across different media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lena's Consumption of Media, Multitasking, and Attention

• Lena discusses how she often watches podcasts, documentaries, and TV at once (04:12).
• The group debates the debunked idea of multitasking and the importance of giving undivided attention.
  • Lena: “It's really about not just attention span... but I think that it's also about giving something your undivided attention.” (04:56)
• Lena’s unique “rating system” is what shows she’s willing to turn everything off for. (05:13)
• Recommended show: “Half Man” – praised for its exploration of masculinity and vulnerability.

2. Addictions, Vices & Social Commentary

• They discuss societal vices—from social media to cheating—and their cultural acceptability (06:07).
  • Lena: “We're all addicted to something. Our vices sometimes look different and some are more socially acceptable than others.” (06:07)
• They joke about the paradox of critiquing social media while being on it (06:42).
• Reference to a past guest, Adam Mosseri from Instagram, and navigating criticism on platforms.

3. The Streaming Era, Stardom & Generational Gaps (07:38–13:18)

• Conversation about how streaming changed what becomes a mega-hit, the rise of niche programming, and evolving definitions of “celebrity.”
• Lena wonders if we’re still “making stars” or just leveraging established ones (09:03).
• Monica remarks on feeling out of touch with new “stars” from TikTok and social media (09:35).
• Dax shares friend Gordon Keith’s tongue-in-cheek take: “You guys might be among the last mortal stars. The future stars will be AI.” (10:04)

4. The Longevity of TV, AI, and "The Comeback" (10:40–12:23)

• Lena praises the satirical TV series “The Comeback” for foreseeing trends like AI’s role in entertainment.
• She reflects on the cyclical nature of fame and the importance of recognizing when it’s time to climb “a new mountain” (11:22).

5. Aging, Identity & The Male Gaze (16:46–20:00)

• Lena shares thoughts on aging after 40: how achievement (like her Emmy) lessens anxiety about getting older.
• Discusses not being concerned with the “male gaze”:
  • Lena: “I'm a person in an interesting way that doesn't concern myself with the male gaze... I just want to get wiser and evolve and grow.” (17:43)
• Dax shares his insecurities when meeting lesbians, tying self-worth to desirability.

6. Identity, Representation, and “Activism” in Lena’s Art (21:31–27:22)

• Lena clarifies she doesn’t see herself as an “activist” but a student of human behavior, whose stories are seen as “political” because marginalized groups are often underrepresented.
  • Lena: “For me, as an artist, my goal is to not separate myself from the things that make me who I am, but to get folks who don't look like me, love like me, come from the walk of life that I do, to be able to look at the work and... see yourself in this character.” (23:10)
• Discusses universality in specificity—how stories that feel niche (“the gay black episode”) can connect with anyone.

7. Early Life, Family & Self-Knowledge (28:00–45:02)

• Lena’s upbringing in Chicago, her father’s addiction and death, and how “it’s in your blood” warnings about addiction shaped her (28:00–28:46).
• Early love for storytelling and affirmation from teachers (38:41–39:11).
• How living with her grandma exposed Lena to generations of TV, fueling her desire to write.

8. Coming Out, Finding Community & Mentorship (42:32–47:02)

• Lena shares journey to self-understanding as queer; describes feeling invisible in early forays into gay LA scene and the effort to curate supportive community (44:20).
• Mentorship: Shoutouts to Mara Brock Akil, Gina Prince-Bythewood, and Ava DuVernay as her “fairy godmothers” in TV/film (46:24).

9. Building a Writing Career, The Shy, and the Art of Showrunning (47:08–61:54)

• Describes career path: Nickelodeon → Bones → writing The Shy → lessons from execs like Nevins (47:08–48:14).
• Discusses the difficulty and logistics of running long-running shows, balancing creative vision with production realities.
  • Lena: “Someone said getting your own TV show is like being beaten to death with your own dream.” (58:56)

10. On Representation, Success, and Connection (62:00–67:20)

• Gratitude for The Shy's longevity and reflections on the changing TV landscape since 2015.
• Lena’s mentorship program offers truth and tough love to emerging writers, reflecting her passion for giving back (66:29).

11. Parenthood, Choices, and Fulfillment (67:20–74:46)

• Lena discusses being “childless by choice,” the importance of knowing one’s mental capacity, and defying societal expectations around parenthood.
  • Lena: “It's a different kind of responsibility... at the end of a long day, what do I wanna do with myself? And I think the first thing is to not take care of someone else.” (69:44)
• Dax offers a counterpoint about how parenting can paradoxically fulfill and reorder life for some.

12. Relationships, Marriage & Learning to Leave (76:20–79:50)

• Lena opens up about the quick end of her marriage:
  • Lena: “It was me also feeling like even though I'm not as happy as I should be, I think this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And I just didn't have the language or understanding of that. My happiness didn't feel like it was important.” (76:35)
• Emphasizes the importance of honesty, accountability, and allowing others the space to find their happiness after a breakup.

13. The Future: Theater, Films, and New Stories (80:01–83:31)

• Lena’s current projects: wrapping final season of The Shy (Paramount+, May 22), producing a revival of Cats, and developing the film Grand Rising.
• Passion for live theater and how the changing media landscape makes for new opportunities and challenges.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Art & Audience:
  “So many straight white dudes come up to me, tell me how much they love [the Thanksgiving episode of Master of None]… that's the trick: yes, it's specific, but it's also universal.” – Lena (22:39–22:55)

• On the Trap of Stardom:
  “[Celebrity] is so fleeting. You’re a has-been that never was in, like, a year.” – Lena (09:57)

• On Showrunning:
  “Getting your own TV show is like being beaten to death with your own dream. And nothing is truer than that.” – Lena (58:56)

• On Relationships:
  “You have to really ask yourself, what life do I actually want?... I want to be with this person. I want to have this house... But then I didn’t ask myself, but where do you want to be in five years? Like, really?” – Lena (77:53)

• On Mentorship & Parenting:
  “This is a person that is a reflection of you, but also you want to make sure that they're not a carbon copy of you.” – Lena (67:12)

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Important Timestamps

• Introduction & Lena’s media routine: 03:02–05:13
• Vice & social commentary: 06:07–07:01
• Streaming, celebrities, and AI: 08:20–12:23
• Aging, the male gaze, and representation: 16:46–20:00
• Lena on activism, universality, and assumptions: 21:31–27:22
• Early life & family influence: 28:00–39:27
• Coming out & community: 42:32–45:02
• Industry mentorship stories: 46:24–47:02
• Writing career & The Shy: 47:08–61:54
• On being childless by choice: 67:20–69:44
• Marriage, divorce, and self-understanding: 76:20–79:50
• Current/future creative projects: 80:01–83:31

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Tone and Style

The episode is candid, lively, and evocative, brimming with self-reflection, affectionate banter, and flashes of irreverent humor—true to the conversational, trusting dynamic typical of Armchair Expert. Lena and Dax both lean into honesty, growth-through-messiness, and genuine mutual curiosity.

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For Listeners: Why Tune In

This episode is a must for anyone interested in creativity, identity, and the realities behind the glamour of film and television. Lena Waithe is honest about the joys and costs of her path, offers insights into being a black queer woman in Hollywood, and shares wisdom applicable to art, life, and relationships of all kinds.

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Further Listening

• Master of None S2, "Thanksgiving" episode (for context)
• Previous Armchair Expert episode with Adam Mosseri
• The Comeback (HBO series referenced)
• Paris is Burning (documentary referenced by Lena)

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Summary by your podcast expert.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. And today we have Lena Waithe. Oh, I love Lena Waithe. She's an actor, a producer and a screenwriter. She created the Shy. She was on Master of None.

[Monica Padman]

We loved that show.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Queen and Slim boomerang them. This is the final season of the Shy, now streaming on Paramount. Plus, you know Lena, you're gonna really fall in love with her if you've never heard her chat. She's just is sweet and wonder.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Please enjoy Lena Waithe. We are supported by Quints Monica. We love quints.

[Monica Padman]

We do. We do love quints.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

And it's perfect for this time of year. Spring loves linen. I feel like everything they make is super luxe, but it doesn't break the bank.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And the way they keep prices low, they work directly with ethical factories. No middlemen, no retail markup. So you're getting premium materials at 50 to 80% less than comparable brands. Like those linen shorts start at $34.

[Monica Padman]

I know, I hate to keep talking about the linen shorts, but guys, the linen shorts are really, really cute. They look classic, they look timeless, they look really expensive and they're so comfortable. I was honestly surprised by how good they feel.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they're very breathable. When is a nice, nice material, it's a good material. Refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use head to quince.com stacks for free shipping on your order. And 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.comdax for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.comdax this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I feel like spring always does this thing where you realize you've been thinking about something for a long time and suddenly it feels like, okay, maybe I actually do something with it.

[Monica Padman]

Totally. It's less pressure, but more like readiness.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Like you've been sitting on an idea or a project or even just a perspective you care about, and now you're like, maybe this deserves to exist somewhere outside of my own head.

[Monica Padman]

In May being Mental Health Awareness Month, there's already this broader conversation happening. People are more open, more curious, more willing to engage, which is where something

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And Wabiwab is not trying to spend 40 hours figuring out web design.

[Monica Padman]

It just worked, which is kind of the point.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Lena Waithe]

He's an upchurch. Holy options.

[Monica Padman]

No, no, you were great.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you offered enough options? Because look how many I have.

[Lena Waithe]

I know. That's how I usually am. That's how I usually am.

[Dax Shepard]

I just did.

[Lena Waithe]

I just did something.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. Cause you brought her a cream top, and she was like, I'm not with that much dairy.

[Lena Waithe]

Coffee.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't drink coffee.

[Monica Padman]

What about tea?

[Lena Waithe]

Sometimes.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it caffeine in general you don't get down with?

[Lena Waithe]

I don't know if I need any kind of caffeine. He's like. He's already walked in. He's already like, you're talking to the wrong guy.

[Dax Shepard]

Caffeine, caffeine, caffeine, caffeine.

[Monica Padman]

He doesn't need it, but he drinks it.

[Lena Waithe]

I can't do it. Yeah. I don't want to be dependent on.

[Monica Padman]

It's fun. It's something to look forward to.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you identify at all with the many, many things that come across your Instagram about adhd? Because for me, I'm like, ooh, yeah,

[Lena Waithe]

I don't have adhd. It's interesting. The person who I share my life,

[Dax Shepard]

she says she's already on here, so I don't know what to tell you.

[Lena Waithe]

I know, I know. I like to watch my podcast, so I like. I watch y' all as well. I'm watching the podcast, like, what's on my phone? And I'm like, watching a Kim Burns documentary at the same time. It's like, I'm doing that. And she's just like, how. How are you able to do this and follow what's happening here in this conversation and listen to this docum? I don't know. It's the thing.

[Dax Shepard]

My question is, do you think you are consuming both at, like, what percentage?

[Lena Waithe]

That's a good question.

[Dax Shepard]

Because, you know, they've debunked the myth of multitasking. Right? Like, there's been enormous Studies done where they measure the time spent and then they have proven that if you had just done one at a time and then the next one, like, this is already kind of known. But I'm not saying that's the case here. I'm just wondering what percentage you think you're thinking it is.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. You know, the truth is, here's the thing. I will sometimes say, okay, put the phone down. Let me focus. I think it's really about not just attention span, which we all have to work at expanding. We have to actively do that. But I think that it's also about giving something your undivided attention.

[Dax Shepard]

That could almost be your rating system. Like, if you had a public platform where you rated things, it would be like, what thing did you shut down all things for? So this season, what showed you were like, you know what, we're putting this over here.

[Lena Waithe]

The thing that I'm like, really locked in is half man, half man.

[Dax Shepard]

What one is that?

[Lena Waithe]

That's the gentleman who did Baby Reindeer.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Lena Waithe]

This is his sophomore effort, hbo.

[Dax Shepard]

It just came out.

[Lena Waithe]

Just came out. There's two episodes up right now. I think both are pretty exquisite.

[Dax Shepard]

Exquisite, nice word.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, Baby reindeer locked us all in in a real way. But I think. And I got to tell him this, I was really grateful to be able to do that at the Globes. I stopped him and I said, you made me want to be a more vulnerable artist.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's a lovely compliment.

[Dax Shepard]

No, when he goes into the whole thing about he's in that fucked up, crazy zone of drugs and fucking and that whole. I was like, oh, wow, man. I'm so impressed. He's going here as like an addict. I was like, oh, yes.

[Monica Padman]

And it's true.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, well, we're all addicted to something. Our vices sometimes look different and some are more socially acceptable than others. You know, it's like cheating is a vice. Being unfaithful, I think can be a vice.

[Dax Shepard]

We'd say that's low acceptance, right? Yeah, we would agree.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Universally reviled, universally practiced. Estelle.

[Monica Padman]

Esther. Esther Perel.

[Dax Shepard]

Esther Perel. I fucked it up on both sides.

[Lena Waithe]

You just, like brought her all together.

[Dax Shepard]

I made her a one name artist.

[Lena Waithe]

You're like, look, let me glob you here.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me make you worldwide.

[Lena Waithe]

I got you. But also, it's like shopping is a vice. Socially acceptable.

[Dax Shepard]

Social media is a vice.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely. But socially acceptable in a way. Because the funny thing is people on their phones posting on social. Why you shouldn't be on social. And Folks are watching it, like, yeah, but I'm getting this message on the very thing you're telling me to get off of.

[Dax Shepard]

We had the CEO of Instagram on, and he gave this.

[Lena Waithe]

Liv. Liv, who's my guy with the glasses who always send in a thing about the updates and stuff. Who talks about that?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's our guy, Adam Mosseri.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I love him.

[Lena Waithe]

I like him a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

And he's so thoughtful.

[Lena Waithe]

Very like.

[Dax Shepard]

He's the dude you should pray is running that thing. Yeah. And we have him on. We have this great, thoughtful thing, and I challenge him on every damn thing.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And people are on the goddamn app telling me, how could you platform him? You can't support this. And I'm like, you're on the app. You cannot have this position.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow. Yes, of course. Because they have to rationalize.

[Dax Shepard]

They're on there just to shut it down. I think in their mind, they're gonna

[Lena Waithe]

take down the very thing that they're helping to keep alive.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So we love the new show. Madman Horse Man.

[Monica Padman]

Half man, half man. Get too much coffee.

[Lena Waithe]

It's too much coffee. I just really like that show a lot in terms of how he's exploring masculinity and what relationships can look like between two men that don't necessarily have to be. Both of them have to be queer. But I think he also was exploring versions of that in Baby Reindeer as well. But I think he definitely is sort of an artist that's making television in a. That is forcing us to pay attention in a way that I don't know if we always do. The fact that this was something that was not proper America. Netflix. This was Netflix that was, like, coming out of the uk and he said to me, he was like, I don't think Netflix thought it was gonna be this huge hit. That speaks to the disconnect between, I think, streamers and audiences.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Lena Waithe]

And it's sort of like, what do audiences actually want? What do they need?

[Dax Shepard]

This is the beauty, though. There's downsides to the streamers. You have a show that's about to be on for eight seasons. If you had that on network TV in 1980, you'd be buying a bas.

[Lena Waithe]

I lived through the whole thing.

[Monica Padman]

Okay? Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

The one upside of it is, yeah, they're gonna make Baby Reindeer.

[Lena Waithe]

That's Netflix.

[Dax Shepard]

No one there believes in it, but they're gonna make it because they're gonna make 350 shows this year.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And then that does give the opportunity for all these things to Pop Beef comes out of nowhere, and all these shows come out of nowhere that no one was betting on in, like, a network way. And that deserves acknowledgment. Like, it's taken a toll on a lot of aspects of this industry, but that one part is amazing. It's like they switched a niche, and then niche became mega hits sometimes.

[Lena Waithe]

No, that's true. And it's about, like, what becomes mega hits. Why does it become a mega hit? I'm always fascinated by that. Are we creating stars anymore or just sort of depending on the ones that already have the money to carry a show that might not be that great?

[Monica Padman]

Well, stars also are becoming stars in a different way. Like, not just because they're on TV or in movies or in music. I was looking at all the pictures from the Met gala this morning, and I was like, I know. I'm, like, getting old.

[Lena Waithe]

You're like, who are these people?

[Monica Padman]

But I don't know anything. Any of these people.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. It's like being 30, watching a billboard Awards.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Lena Waithe]

I was like, wait, I don't know anyone.

[Monica Padman]

Is it me or is it that the stars are from TikTok. From things that I'm not on, but they're not on my tv, I don't think.

[Lena Waithe]

Right. I think the word star is sort of becoming interesting. The word celebrity, public figure. What does that mean? Because you can become a celebrity in a week, but then you're a. Has been. That never was in, like, a year.

[Monica Padman]

It's so fleeting.

[Lena Waithe]

I know. You're like.

[Monica Padman]

You're like, you've done good. You've made entertained back and forth.

[Dax Shepard]

We have this friend. I love him so much. Gordon Keith. He's on a popular Dallas sports radio show, and he has been for, like, 25 years. He was visiting last time. We were talking about AI and everything, and he said to Chris and I, he goes, you know, you guys might be among the last mortal stars.

[Lena Waithe]

Mortal?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Like, the future stars will be AI. Like, you might be in history. The last of the mortal stars. And Chris goes, oh, my God, that's so funny.

[Lena Waithe]

The last of the mortal stars, the final season. And one of the strongest seasons of the Comeback is telling us the future, which the Comeback has always done.

[Dax Shepard]

That's your first acting job, too, right?

[Lena Waithe]

That was technically, yes. Aziz always starts to take credit for my first tv. I'm like, actually, Michael Patrick King, Lisa Kudjo, they threw me in there one episode. Very grateful to Allison Jones who discovered me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What did they predict this season?

[Lena Waithe]

That AI is going to take over all of the shit. They've been such ahead of the game. And the Comeback is just sort of one of those great shows. I was honored to be asked by New York Times about what are the 100 most important television. It was a very tricky task. This is not definitive list. They just came out with 100 greatest songwriters ever movies and all that kind of stuff. So I was honored to be at the table for the television one. And I was really happy to speak about the Comeback because it was on when I was in college the first season, and I could see in that moment what they were doing with comedy. And that was so unique and so special because I was already liking Sex and the City. I was already a Friends fan. But to see these two brains come together and make this show about an aging actress in Hollywood and what she had and the fact that they were ahead of the curve in terms of reality television in that first season and then in the second season getting into the premium cable type thing and what that would ultimately be. And for this third and final season, I mean, the seasons are spread out between like a decade, which is so brilliant because the first season was so beloved. And when we talked about it that 10 years later, HBO's like, yeah, do a second season. And now 10 years later, they're doing the third and final. And it is this sort of trifecta of Hollywood and what happens to it. And I'm like, All About Eve. You know, it's sort of, oh, this is what happens. There's a person that's there that we look at and we love, and then she. She eventually gets put out to pasture and there's someone that comes in to replace. And it's cyclical. It's sort of telling you you can only be on the mountaintop for so long because you can't breathe the air up there. So you have to start climbing a new mountain or you'll die at the top of the one you made it to.

[Dax Shepard]

Everything's driven by young people. This is also a reality. I'll talk to young people. I have a 13 year old. We have friends. The people that they don't know break your heart. I mean, literally, the people, they don't

[Lena Waithe]

know the movies, they haven't seen the movies. They're like Shawshank Redemption. What?

[Dax Shepard]

That wouldn't even. No, I wouldn't even take that swing.

[Lena Waithe]

You would say, okay. I mean, Blazing Saddles, like, what are we doing?

[Dax Shepard]

That one's probably a no go for most young people.

[Lena Waithe]

What are we doing?

[Dax Shepard]

What's the bridge.

[Lena Waithe]

What's the bridge? It is up to the parents. The parents got to get in there. Like, my mom made sure I like Prince.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Although that's not a hard job.

[Lena Waithe]

It was. I didn't see it at first when I was a young person, really in the car, couldn't hear it. I'm in college in Chicago. He comes to the city. She makes me go. It's one of the things I'm very grateful for. She's like, you gotta come to the concert. I said, I don't like, I don't hear it. I go, I'm like baptized. I'm like, oh, got it. And then I go out and buy every record. Which took me like a long time because he was just releasing music every week since he came out.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess you're nine years younger than me, so that explains a little bit. I couldn't have not loved Prince. You know, I was probably in fifth grade when Purple Rain came out. You were either into Michael Jackson or Prince. And to me, Prince was dangerous. And I liked him. I was like, okay, that guy's dangerous. I'm into him.

[Lena Waithe]

See, like, Michael was like, perfect for him. Like, this is going to sound so wrong, but he's perfect for like if you're a kid. Yes, sorry.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, I know, I know. You don't want to talk about your partner, but not use that. And Michael Jackson's perfect. If you're a kid, you tell your problem says good news and bad news. We did not talk about

[Lena Waithe]

if you're a kid. Like Michael Jackson.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I know. It is.

[Lena Waithe]

It is magic.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, there is a reason he is so complicated. He was half.

[Dax Shepard]

He seems trapped in his smoky.

[Lena Waithe]

Robinson has this really great quote. He said Michael Jackson had to be a man when he was a kid. And when he became a man, he was a kid again.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I co sign on all that.

[Lena Waithe]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't co sign on that. That is somehow a justification for the behavior that followed.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think he was justified.

[Dax Shepard]

He was just like.

[Lena Waithe]

That was an observation.

[Dax Shepard]

I think we say that. Like, I definitely do think that's right. I. His childhood was stolen from him and then he lived it out as an adult in Neverland Ranch.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, literally creating.

[Dax Shepard]

But let's that not take him off the hook.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The one take a big digression.

[Lena Waithe]

Perfect.

[Dax Shepard]

So I had never met you. I had seen you on Master of None.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I liked you on Master of None.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

I loved the Thanksgiving episode. I remember I had no idea you were a writer. And in fact, not till much later. I thought maybe that was your first time writing. Like, I didn't know your history.

[Lena Waithe]

That was my fear, actually, about doing the show because I was like, oh, is these people gonna think I'm an actor who's trying to write? But actually, I'm a writer that you want to act.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

He's like, right, yeah, I don't care.

[Dax Shepard]

You're already a staff writer on Bones at that point.

[Lena Waithe]

Right, right. Yeah. I did that cause I needed a job.

[Dax Shepard]

A few other shows. I met you in real life. We were at this event. And I'll add, I'm so excited you're a 2pm interview, because that means Delta will be here when we get done.

[Lena Waithe]

Nice.

[Dax Shepard]

So I was with Delta when we matched. And something happened between you two. I don't want to speak for you, but instant. There was an explosion of charisma and connection.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, instant.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the first thing she said to you is, I love your voice or something.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I saw this side of you, and she has that effect on people. Not that it took a lot, but I saw a side of you immediately that was like, oh, I love this person. I gotta say, of all the stop and chats I've had in my life, I ranked that very high. And like, oh, yeah, I really love this person. Wow.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It was a very memorable hour and a half hang.

[Lena Waithe]

No, it was clear that you're raising kids that know who they are. That was, I think, very interesting to be talking to a young kid who was almost like, fully formed.

[Dax Shepard]

She's probably nine then.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, right. That's why it throws you dumped. Because I'm going like, what? You know, to be a girl with a husky voice and have one. Her life. There was sort of this thing of like, her having, like, almost her own sort of voice. Her scratchy voice.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Hers was real scratchy then, too. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So sort of like the two girls with cool voices were chatting like.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, we see each other. We see each other.

[Dax Shepard]

Honestly. I hear you.

[Lena Waithe]

I hear you literally and figuratively. It was a lovely meeting.

[Dax Shepard]

It was lovely. I really enjoyed learning about you today. Starts in Chicago. Yeah. 1984, May 17th. We're about to have a birthday.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Damn right. About to have my Jackie Robinson year. About to be 42.

[Dax Shepard]

How do you feel about aging? You're very accomplished.

[Lena Waithe]

That helps, like, have an Emmy, I think. I. I love it because, you know, it's interesting. Oprah did this really interesting episode back in the day with These amazing women who kind of were known for being beauties in their heyday. Like, it was Diane Carroll. Like, Lauren the model.

[Dax Shepard]

Nicole.

[Lena Waithe]

No, no, no, no. Lauren. I'm forgetting. But she was like a model with a gap tooth or whatever. But she just had these women on there who were just really known for their beauty. And she asked them what they feared the most, and they all said aging. Oprah was kind of taken aback by that because Oprah said, that's not a thing that scares me. And Oprah, in that moment, literally is having this light bulb moment in front of people. She's saying, o think it's because I'm not worried about a beauty type of thing fading.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not what her value proposition was.

[Lena Waithe]

That's not where my value was.

[Dax Shepard]

So black people age better.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, this is true.

[Dax Shepard]

This is true.

[Lena Waithe]

Something in the deal.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah. Don't get us.

[Dax Shepard]

There's very few perks, but that's one of them.

[Lena Waithe]

You have to deal with some shit. But also, I'm a person in an interesting way that doesn't concern myself with the male gaze.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And so there's this level of I don't need to look. Look younger than I am. I don't need to appeal to a certain audience. I just want to get wiser and evolve and grow and learn and know something more today that I did yesterday.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a lot of factors, too. I would argue, and correct me if I'm wrong, the older black woman has a matriarchal position that's very cherished and valued. I know you lived with Grandma. Right. At some point. Right. Grandma means a lot.

[Monica Padman]

True.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, knowing you're aging into a role of great relevance and purpose versus a lot of the white ladies are just thrown out the pasture.

[Lena Waithe]

Malachi. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I think there's a lot of different things in the mix.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. I think to me, it's just whatever somebody says, oh, I hate getting older. I would say, what's the alternative?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lena Waithe]

It's better than the alternative, for sure.

[Monica Padman]

But it's funny that you bring up the male gaze part, because we just had this crazy experience last week where we interviewed some of the listeners, and we had this man on to tell a story, and I was like, oh, my God, he's so hot. He graduated from the same college as me. And I was like, I graduated in 2009. When did you graduate? And he graduated in 2021. And I was like, you had a moment. Oh, my God. I Had like a real. I'm old. I'm. I guess a cougar. I hated it. And I don't ever walk around thinking that. I never walk around thinking I'm old. It was because I'm in front of this young, hot guy.

[Dax Shepard]

She's 53, by the way. I don't know if you know, she didn't say her age.

[Monica Padman]

Fast math.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I'm 38.

[Lena Waithe]

You're killing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're crushing. I was pumped. I was like, oh, good, we're in a phase where she finally, like, is into a younger dude. Like, let's get on with that.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean.

[Dax Shepard]

And that's not where it went.

[Monica Padman]

No. It just made me feel so old and irrelevant. And I was like, oh, wow. I normally never feel that way in life. I'm pretty confident. But then in juxtaposition to this, young guys, when you say male gaze, there is something very real about that.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Like, I'm not really concerned about that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel like the door is open for me to tackle something that's so dangerous to tackle. It is funny that you say, like, I'm not concerned with the male gaze. And I gotta say, leading into meeting you, I think the reason I was shocked we got along so instantly. Well, by my estimation, was like, I'm nervous around lesbians because. Because I'm so used to my value proposition being you might like me. And so, like, for me to enter a situation where it's like, I know you're not gonna like me, capital L like me. And I have to confront how much capital l like me means to me.

[Lena Waithe]

That's real.

[Dax Shepard]

And how much of my own personal self esteem and value comes from capital L like me. Do you like me?

[Monica Padman]

Attraction.

[Dax Shepard]

And so I know, oh, yeah, you're never gonna like me. I start there, which it fucks me up a little bit.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, that's real.

[Dax Shepard]

And then a lot of your art is. Is deeply activist oriented. You have a lot of causes you care about. And then so my next insecurity goes like, she's gonna look at me and be like, this dude doesn't give a fuck about anything. I go in with these two insecurities and then I start talking to you and I go, no, I think she likes me. Maybe my capital L like me, but I can live with this.

[Monica Padman]

And is that enough is lowercase L enough?

[Dax Shepard]

It totally is. And I think everything can get so easily misread. I'm sure there's some lesbians who are like, oh, he don't like me. Because he only likes people he can fuck. And I'm doing the opposite thing. And neither's true.

[Lena Waithe]

No. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't say I've had a lot of lesbian friends. And I have to acknowledge it's gotta be some part of my own insecurity or. So I feel like, oh, I'm invisible to this person or something.

[Lena Waithe]

That's super interesting. A couple things, like, I'm so scared saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is like, really great. First thing I want to touch on is the art being rooted in activism. And the truth is, is I don't think of myself as a activist in a way. I think of myself as a human who studies human behavior. And I try to, like, cap to look at, I think, because a lot of stuff I'm dealing with is black folk. It can be sort of categorized as, okay, this is what this group of people is dealing with and going through, especially with a movie like Queen and Slim or something like them. Covenant, which I produced, I didn't write or direct on that, but that was a black person who I believe identifies as queer, but he was trying to explore something there through that. And Queen of Slim, I was exploring something about our society. And then you look at something like the Shy, which is sort of exploring just sort of life. Middle class Chicagoans, but. Because if it's people who are part of a marginalized community, it sometimes can be seen as, oh, this is a political thing, because we don't have any choice for it to be anything other than that. But then you think about Thanksgiving episode. It's like so many straight white dudes come up to me, tell me how much they love it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I love it.

[Lena Waithe]

And that was a breakthrough for me because I used to think of it as the black episode of Master of None.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, interesting. This is gonna be.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, we gonna have a black episode of these. Oh, cool. Oh, yeah. Okay. A gay black episode.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And I just thought it was for the gay black folk. Gay black folk love the Thanksgiving episode.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. I think everyone loves the.

[Lena Waithe]

But that's the thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

That's the trick is that, yes, it's specific, but it's also universal.

[Dax Shepard]

So, you know, I don't think you're preachy. I think you're telling the stories that are true to you. You're supposed to write what you know.

[Lena Waithe]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

And you are in these two groups that inevitably are gonna seem political.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, absolutely. But for me, as an artist, my goal is to not separate myself from the things that make me who I am, but to get folks who don't look like me, love like me, come from the walk of life that I do. To be able to look at the work and not only see it through a particular lens, to say, hey, you can see yourself in this character. It's the way I see myself in the lead character in Baby Reindeer.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I was gonna say, even when you listed the shows that you like right now, of course those are the shows that you like.

[Lena Waithe]

Some people might go, oh, I'm surprised that she's watching that show.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. As a black woman, they like, oh, you not just watching Power and Girlfriends.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, say nothing. Wrongdoing show. Yeah. I did actually watch the Hoosier. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

I also love Bait. Wanna shout out Riz Ahmed on Amazon? If you haven't seen it, check it out. Beautiful show. He gonna be mad you ain't seen it. Look something. But at the end of the day, it's like, so.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Everyone's in trouble.

[Lena Waithe]

How am I assuming you seen Bait?

[Monica Padman]

Right? Exactly.

[Lena Waithe]

But I'm also like, why do you not see Bates?

[Monica Padman]

What issues do you have?

[Dax Shepard]

Let's just start with everyone's in trouble.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Lena Waithe]

To go to the thing about, like, me and straight men, I feel like I have really great relationships with straight dudes. And a big part of that, I think, is because sex is not on the table. So they don't feel this need to perform because nothing's coming from it. And I think that's why I also have very interesting relationships with straight women, because that gets a little dicey. Because it's a level of, huh, you're kind of masc, but you're a woman. And I kind of like this energy. I'm kind of confused. It can get a little tricky. I'm going like, are we cool? Are you hitting on me? You are, but I don't know what's going on. And so I just hear what you're saying in terms of, oh, but if you couldn't like me, then what's my end? What am I doing?

[Dax Shepard]

What's my value to anybody who wouldn't like me?

[Lena Waithe]

Right. And the truth is, it's like, there's so much value because that isn't all that you have to offer me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I know it's stupid as I'm saying it, but it is the emotion I have. Right. That I have to think through.

[Lena Waithe]

That's super interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

I go like, oh, I've got nothing to offer this person. They're not going to want to interact with me. And I got to step over that?

[Lena Waithe]

No, I think that's super fascinating to me because I think for me, when I approach, I'm just. I'm curious, what's the energy gonna be? I'm more curious about that. Cause my brain isn't always there. I more so wanna know, well, who are you? What's the thing? The word I dislike the most is assume. Anytime someone says it, what follows it is sort of saying. So what you're saying is you didn't ask, you didn't go to the source. You came up with a narrative for yourself about a person. And by the way, there are people that have narratives about me that are completely based on nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

I think I had created one. She won't like me. She'll think I don'. About anything. Why would she want to talk to me? I'm talking to her. Wow, she seems to like me. She's smiling.

[Lena Waithe]

That's what a lot of our society is doing right now. Which is why I think it looks the way it does. We assume things about each other rather than having that moment of, like, talking to each other and really hearing each other. Because even, like what you just said, I try to be an active listener. That's why I was like. I heard a couple of things I said. I was like, okay, I want to address the activist thing. I was like, Cause that's really interesting to me. It's not combative, but it's sort of like, oh, huh, that's an interesting thing.

[Dax Shepard]

I know that word's dicey, like, for me to even say activist. I know that's a loaded word.

[Lena Waithe]

No, it's not at all. But to me, it's like, I get what you mean. It doesn't seem like an odd thing at all what you said, But I think for me, it's helpful to hear and to kind of go, okay, I see how the work can be perceived that way. And because I have no control over how people perceive the work. But I think for me, as an artist, it's always about, okay, that's how it can be seen. Okay, cool. And how do I continue to make work that no one feels ostracized from it? Cause some people may go, I don't want to work because that's active. I don't want. I want to just kind of chill.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't want to be taught a lesson.

[Lena Waithe]

Exactly. And sometimes work, especially by women or women of color or if you have to add queer, there's this idea, this assumption that you're gonna be taught there's

[Dax Shepard]

gonna be A moral here.

[Lena Waithe]

This bout to be woke versus just. Oh, that was just kind of funny and human and grounded.

[Monica Padman]

It can be a burden because even if you're saying something or you're making a piece of art that a white woman made, straight people might not be like, it's an allegory or it's a lesson or it's trying to teach me. That's part of the thing. I mean, sometimes we'll get in like debates here, but if I'm saying something, it's kind of like I'm speaking on behalf of always. And I'm not always. I'm just saying what I think. Right.

[Lena Waithe]

But you have to always like identify that you say, I'm just talking from my point of view. I don't represent everyone I know.

[Monica Padman]

And then that's exhausting. It is. Exactly. No one else has to do it.

[Lena Waithe]

I know. If you don't do that, then people be like, oh, so you speaking for us? You speaking for me? It's just like, oh, no, I'm not. I'm speaking for myself. And that's a part of the way people do interviews. If you pay attention to it, they're like, I'm just talking about me. No offense to this person. No, that I don't wanna.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sorry.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm married. In a healthy marriage. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because people at home are gonna going like, well, fuck you. He's waiting for us.

[Monica Padman]

Like, what?

[Lena Waithe]

It's like, Jesus, what crap.

[Monica Padman]

No, it got really out of control.

[Lena Waithe]

No, but anyway. But I like you. I have to get to know you. I have to meet you met your kid. Yeah, Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I like you so much too. I did immediately. I didn't let any of that get in the way. It was just like passing thoughts as I consumed your art.

[Lena Waithe]

We're programmed.

[Dax Shepard]

So you were 0 to 12, Southside of Chicago.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

And what was that like? Mom and dad divorced at three.

[Lena Waithe]

At two, dad died suddenly when I was 14, but I only saw him from like till I was like seven. And then like seven years kind of went by, he was gone.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he an addict?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, you know, it's crazy because I want to get his death certificate because I didn't know anything about how he died and he was actually killed by someone, but it was sort of in self defense, so it wasn't a situation like that. But the coroner did show that there was cocaine in his system. There is a history of addiction.

[Dax Shepard]

My dad loved cocaine. And then I grew up to love it too. It smells so good.

[Lena Waithe]

This is why my grandmother told me. She said, the grandma's a gonna say, it's in your blood, so be mindful, be thoughtful. A lot of us kind of got told.

[Dax Shepard]

They told me that too.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, shit, you didn't.

[Dax Shepard]

They told me.

[Lena Waithe]

Let me just see what's up.

[Dax Shepard]

I gotta find out for myself. Oh, they were right.

[Lena Waithe]

Did you see the Chevy Chase doc?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

Jesus Christ.

[Dax Shepard]

I would love your analysis.

[Lena Waithe]

I thought it was quite fascinating. I thought it was quite human. I'm a person that's done a documentary about a person who was no longer here. Being Marie Tyler Moore. That can be a little bit trickier. I don't say there's more pressure, but her widower was kind enough to give us the life rights and the space to tell that story. It took us about five years just going through a lot of interviews and things like that. Obviously written a memoir when I was much younger and just obsessed with the Mary Tyler Moore show and. And Dick Van Dyke and all that kind of stuff. But it's tough to kind of create a portrait of a person. And obviously that person is still here and he's being interviewed. Yeah. And, you know, I've heard the stories. I think a lot of us have.

[Dax Shepard]

And they're in the dock.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

It's pretty unflinching. On his many, many.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely.

[Dax Shepard]

Outbursts and shittiness.

[Lena Waithe]

I learned a lot of things that I didn't know, which I think is the point of a documentary.

[Dax Shepard]

Childhood didn't sound great.

[Lena Waithe]

No, not at all. It's tricky because it's not about making excuses, but rather about giving you context for a person.

[Dax Shepard]

It's an explanation, not an excuse. That's what I like to say. Those are different things.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ye. I think the thing with Chevy that got me the Most was the 50th SNL bit. To watch that and to see him still be affected.

[Dax Shepard]

Can't get out of his own way

[Monica Padman]

for people who haven't seen it.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, I also don't want to.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, no, no, you're not gonna ruin

[Lena Waithe]

me checking it out. But as people know that there was a 50th anniversary special on SNL with, like, everybody that ever pretty much touched it and a lot of the people that were important to the show. By the way, Lorne Michaels is interviewed as well, which I thought was really important. But Chevy talked about not being in the show.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And even though he was very much part of the origin of the show. I mean, that's not disputed. But also he came back and hosted. It wasn't the best energy for, I think, either party when he came back to host. And sometimes your reputation, you leave a mark that can stick with people. And who knows what happened. That's the thing. He doesn't know what happened. Lauren kind of is Lauren sort of. He's sort of. I don't know. We try. But also, Martin Short said something really interesting. He was like, Billy Crystal was there as well. He didn't speak either. So what are you gonna say? So Martin Short definitely gave some context to the situation. But you know what I appreciate is that Chevy Chase said, like, I was hurt by it.

[Dax Shepard]

He was hurt. He reaped what he sowed.

[Lena Waithe]

What I respect is vulnerability. I respect the honesty. The toughest thing for people to do is just to say that hurt my feelings.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, a little bit.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you know where my compassion came from?

[Lena Waithe]

Where?

[Dax Shepard]

It'd be one thing if he was so happy and unaffected by the wreckage he seemed to be incapable of not creating. Right. Like if he was sitting there high on his horse, feeling great about it all and enjoying life and feeling good, he is a victim of it all. He's very uncomfortable. He's in such discomfort. It's very obvious. That's true. And so I look at it and I go like, yeah, he was terrible to a lot of people and primarily himself. And I have compassion for that. That kind of self destructive. I can relate to it. And then also these crazy glimpses of him where he's still a fucking genius. Like just him interacting with the dude with the flowers. And I shared. So I'm lying back from the NBC upfronts and they put me in a car with him. I've never met him.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

We're sitting in a car together and we pull up to the hotel and there's 600 people out in front of the hotel to see stars. And when he gets out, everyone's so excited, right? And he's trying to walk through this crowd and goes, oh, yes, I'm feeling much better now, thank you for asking. And keeps moving. And I was like, feeling much better now, thank you for asking, is one of the funniest things I've ever heard. And that's also part of him. Right.

[Lena Waithe]

But I think that's. It's sort of a portrait of a person.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair experts if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking what the warning light means before pulling out of your driveway. You Absolutely. Convince yourself it was probably just a sensor thing right up until you were standing on the side of the road waiting for a tow. Yeah. Checking first is the right move. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need need it. Add an Allstate roadside plan today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary. Insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club Incorporated and Allstate affiliate. We get support from Helix. I have to say the Helix is the greatest mattress. First of all. The way it just gets shipped to your house. It's so easy. You're not going to a store. The fact that you can pick out your sleep temp to match you. Yes. It's so customizable and so darn comfortable.

[Monica Padman]

I've had a Helix mattress for years now. A long time.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And it has really held up. It's still so comfortable. Still matches my exact needs. I'm a side sleeper.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm all over the map in Nashville. I have the midnight luxe. When I'm going to Nashville. I look forward to sleeping on that. Bad. And that's the thing about Helix. It's not just comfortable on night one. It stays that way. They have over 20 models, so you're not just picking a mattress off a shelf. You're matching to how you actually sleep. Side sleeper, hot sleeper, bad back. Whatever it is, there's a specific model built for that.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. And you know what is amazing is they now have cooling upgrades going into summer. If you run hot at night. That is such a game changer. I have started running hot at night. Night.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. As you get older.

[Monica Padman]

Me too. And it makes a difference.

[Dax Shepard]

It's really one of those things where you don't realize how much better sleep can be until you're actually getting it consistently. Go to helixsleep.comarmchair for 20% off. That's helixsleep.com armchair for 20% off. Helixsleep.com armchair this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Summer's one of those seasons where there's this pressure to be on all the time. Say yes to everything, Pack the calendar, and then you end up more burnt out than when it's time started.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. There's a real difference between surviving a summer and actually thriving in one.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm feeling it right now. It's approaching. And I have 90 things I insist I have to do on this little tiny sliver of time.

[Monica Padman]

And yeah, it gets a little stressful, stressing you out. Well, it really helps to have someone else in the game to help you get through it.

[Dax Shepard]

Check in. Yeah. And if you've been thinking about trying therapy, better help makes it really simple to get started. It's the world's largest online therapy platform. Platform. Over 30,000 therapists, all fully licensed. They match you based on a questionnaire and they've been doing it for over 12 years. So the matching is dialed in and if it's not right, you can switch anytime.

[Monica Padman]

There's no friction, just support when you need it.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't have to say yes to everything. This summer, find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Dax that's better. H E L P.com Dax this episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all in one finance app where you can bank, borrow and invest all in one place.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

Plus get up to a $300 welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. Sign up for SOFI Checking and [e-mail] Armchair Sofi checking and savings is offered through Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms applied.

[Lena Waithe]

What I love about those documentaries, adding my own to it, you know, with Mary Tyler Moore, is that she's the woman that could turn the world on with her smile. But she also was an alcoholic and dealt with a lot of death in her family. And her son has an accidental suicide and he was in his twenties. And then she also dated ordinary people before that and then experienced it in real life. She went through a ton, but was sort of the Jackie O of television of her time. And so I think ultimately when you're trying to paint a portrait of someone, there's a lot of colors you have to use and you have to really let people speak to their experiences of them. And the truth is, everybody's right, even though there's a moment in the doc where someone talks about how he was treated by them and he was.

[Dax Shepard]

It's heartbreaking.

[Lena Waithe]

People recall that. But this person's truth exists. The documentary allows Chevy's truth to exist as well.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. They're just wreckage.

[Lena Waithe]

But that's the thing. It's like the Pee Wee Herman doc I thought was really phenomenal because I grew up with that.

[Dax Shepard]

I loved that doc.

[Lena Waithe]

That doc. I watched it multiple times.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. That's a beautiful.

[Lena Waithe]

So stunning. Because I didn't realize what I was actually getting when I was watching that show.

[Dax Shepard]

Me neither.

[Lena Waithe]

He was speaking to the crazy, weird kids.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

It was all misfits.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I didn't even get that. But I felt very connected to him.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. I didn't know I was a misfit until I realized I'm like, what is it about this language that he's speaking that I understand?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Sometimes you don't know what you're seeing until somebody points it out to you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And so.

[Lena Waithe]

And I think that's the other thing too. You get perspective. You can kind of look back on a career and go, oh. And then you see the downfall. You go, I see. Oh, this is interesting. That kind of went. How they tried to make it like he was a bad dude.

[Dax Shepard]

Breaks my heart.

[Lena Waithe]

That's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

He was straight. And fucking hookers. Like, he could have done anything straight. Nothing would have happened.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah. That's the thing. Hello. Anyway, it's the thing about these people's lives and the impact they have on us that we don't even realize. And then you realize that this person that has such an impact on you was a person.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. Everyone.

[Lena Waithe]

It's weird when you realize your parents are a person. You're like, oh, that's weird.

[Dax Shepard]

There's only one person I think might not be a person, but this is one Steven Seagal. I'm not.

[Lena Waithe]

You could have went anywhere.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, I know if I watched the doc and I saw the record, he'd be very comfortable.

[Lena Waithe]

You're like, I don't know. Begone. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Begone.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Begone. Yes. Begonia.

[Dax Shepard]

I read that you wanted to be a TV writer at 7 and this feels impossible to me because when I watched TV at 7, it wouldn't have even occurred to me that it had started with writing. It's just like these people exist on this box. I think that might be real.

[Lena Waithe]

I think the truth is, I knew I liked writing as a kid. I liked the assignment of having to summarize the book or tell about what you did the day before. And I remember my teacher really affirming me that young, saying, I look forward to reading your papers.

[Dax Shepard]

We both know our teacher's name. Who was it?

[Lena Waithe]

Mrs. Tarrant Bunis.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Larry LeClaire.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. When they tell you you're a good writer, you're like, okay.

[Lena Waithe]

I think what we say is so powerful. The power of the tongue is real. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I just need to always. Any opportunity, give any little kid that thing.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Because they'll remember it. It stays with them both ways.

[Monica Padman]

Whether you're told you're not good at something or you are good, like that just sticks for sure.

[Lena Waithe]

So. No, I was really grateful to have that. But also obviously loved watching television as a young person. I used to watch old TV because I had the grandma in the house. So we was watching, like, all in family.

[Dax Shepard]

Her shows.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, ye. We gonna watch what I want. All in the family.

[Dax Shepard]

Sandra and son.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, we like the Jeffersons. Good times. Obviously, being the family of Chicago, I got to watch that old tv. That had a really big impact on me. A different world was really important to me, which is the spinoff of the Cosby show for the younger audience. Really sort of speaking to me. Even though I was like. Didn't even know what college was, I

[Dax Shepard]

had beef with that show.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, what's the beef?

[Dax Shepard]

I'd say my first number one love of my life was Lisa Bonet.

[Lena Waithe]

Of course, I'm not alone.

[Dax Shepard]

For get it.

[Lena Waithe]

And then she gave birth to herself. Come on. Zoe Kravitz is also stunning.

[Dax Shepard]

I got to dance with her one night for, like, two hours. I just need to tell you, Kristen and I were at a thing.

[Lena Waithe]

Of course. This is how every story starts.

[Dax Shepard]

And Kristen goes, there's your girl.

[Lena Waithe]

This is why you're married to the best lady on the planet.

[Dax Shepard]

She goes, there's your girl, and she's dancing, and you love to dance, so get over there.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And I fucking danced. Cars floating on a cloud. Anyways, the spinoff was like, she took us to the spinoff, right?

[Lena Waithe]

Correct. And then she got booed after the first season. But that's the way it's supposed to go. I lost my lead season three. You know, people knew about that. But there's something that happens when the universe takes someone away like that where, like, we gonna hang the hat on this person. Well, let's remove that person now. See what you do. And what happened was a different world became the show it was ultimately meant to become, which it was supposed to be about Jasmine Guy and Kadeem Hardison and Kree Summer and Sharnell Brown and Darrell Bell and Sinbad and everyone that came in and to.

[Dax Shepard]

So that show was like everything.

[Lena Waithe]

It was just everything. It's like, even though, did you just

[Dax Shepard]

want to live in the world? Did you want to be in that college? Weren't they all in a college?

[Lena Waithe]

That show is a big reason why a lot of folks went to historically black colleges. My black ass. Loving a different world the way I did. I ended up going to Columbia College in Chicago, study writing, producing and television. But I did go visit Fisk, which is a HBCU as well. I wanted to stay in Chicago and I wanted to go learn how to write television.

[Dax Shepard]

Is Columbia Chicago a part of university? A part of the New York. They're completely different things.

[Lena Waithe]

Completely different.

[Dax Shepard]

I was trying to figure that out when I was researching you today. I was like, I'm raining all about it.

[Lena Waithe]

University. I went to the college that tells you like, you know. But she was an exec or is an exec, and I'm a writer, so it makes sense.

[Monica Padman]

It's like, okay, like all this.

[Lena Waithe]

Use these different parts of your brain. But I went to Columbia and it was really the best thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I ask really quick, though? Who are you in elementary? Who were you in high school? Who were you in junior high?

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, who was I?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, in Chicago. And you moved to Evanson. But tell me the first 12.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Who were you?

[Lena Waithe]

Elementary school. I was. The conduct grade was always low classing around classical. Just a busybody talking too much. My mom having to come up to the school.

[Monica Padman]

You said you're not adhd, but this is sounding a teeny bit.

[Lena Waithe]

I was a social butterfly. Way young. I was there to socialize. The grades were solid, though. The reading and the writing and all that. I was killing it, you know, But I was talking too much. And then junior high, I was very much like a tomboy, but I hung out with all the pretty girls and stuff like that. I was in that crew. I loved movies. That was a big part of my personality. People could ask me about anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I ask how early you were fully aware of being queer? And then when you started sharing that

[Lena Waithe]

with friends, oh, man, that's so interesting because I feel like I'm a person that believes it's sort of in you from the beginning. It's about where you recognize it.

[Dax Shepard]

But, I mean, for a minute, you're just not even sexual.

[Lena Waithe]

True. No. But the thing is, when your kids like you laugh, you have crushes.

[Dax Shepard]

That's true.

[Lena Waithe]

You like other kids, you like your teachers and shit.

[Dax Shepard]

There's teachers you like.

[Lena Waithe]

That was never one of my fantasies though, because my teachers were like my aunts and moms, like, they were like amazing, but they just were giving that. But it was really about. I was looking at these actors and stuff coming up and the Janet Jacksons I could recognize. I'm like, Janet is beautiful. I was like, okay, what's happening over here? Halle Berry is beautiful. I can recognize. Whitney Houston is beautiful. But I also considered my mother to be beautiful. And so there was a level of like, oh, you're beautiful, she's beautiful. Okay. These women that I could recognize, it was a different thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you have a young mom? Are you the older sister or the youngest?

[Lena Waithe]

I'm the youngest. And my mom was like, in her, like, if she had us. Okay. So it feels like the usual age you have kids and my sister's like, almost two years older than me. And so it's just the two of us. And I just gravitated toward the female energy. But then I was also a tomboy, like outside with the boys and stuff like that. And so I think for me, high school, I definitely felt very queer. But the thing about tomboys, girls don't really get teased the way boys who are effeminate do.

[Dax Shepard]

No, Right.

[Lena Waithe]

Because in a patriarchal society, it's not odd to be a girl that wants to be a boy. It's odd to be a boy that wants to be a girl because girls are sort of second class citizens, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And so that was the thing. Like, I was never teased or made fun of. So I was never, never eyeballed. And then in college, I was still living with my mom, so I wasn't really out exploring. It wasn't until I moved to la where I was like, okay, where are the gay clubs at? Where are the gay kids? This and that. And then when I would go to those clubs, I would feel very much like an outsider. Like, I didn't feel welcome.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you feel inexperienced?

[Lena Waithe]

Definitely felt inexperienced. And also felt like I don't have any gay gifts, friends either. And so I've just cultivated this sort of like queer black women. Not like a requirement, but the thing is, like, we had to curate that, cultivate that community. Like, it wasn't just like, oh, where are my other queer black masc women?

[Dax Shepard]

It's not turnkey.

[Lena Waithe]

No. Like, you gotta really find folks. And we've literally found it. We were hanging out last night and it's private. We don't have Our phones. We're just having dinner, we're sharing. It's amazing. But it took a beat for us to, like, figure that out. And so I think that's the interesting thing about Community is that it takes effort, it takes time, it takes energy, everything worth having.

[Dax Shepard]

No one ever knocks on your door and gives you something that's worth having.

[Lena Waithe]

No. I do think there's this desire of everything you can have delivered to your door. And not friends.

[Dax Shepard]

No, not friends, not partners, not any of that stuff.

[Lena Waithe]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

You got to work for jobs. All the shit that's worth having, you

[Lena Waithe]

got to fight for it.

[Dax Shepard]

They don't hand it out.

[Lena Waithe]

They don't. And then once you get it, that's when the real work begins.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So you got. I don't want to say lucky, because obviously you'd gotten a degree in it, but you land pretty quickly in LA after graduation as an assistant to an executive producer of Girlfriend.

[Lena Waithe]

Girlfriend. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Right.

[Lena Waithe]

Which I was loving watching.

[Dax Shepard]

And the creator of that show at the time had been the youngest black showrunner ever. Like, 30 maybe. Right.

[Lena Waithe]

Because Yvette Lee Bowser, who wrote On a Different World, she was up top. She had a crazy show called Living Single, so she was outside as well. Want to give her her flowers? And then Mara Brock Akil was also coming up at that time. Mara, Mara. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Anytime. M A R A, I'm afraid. Is it Mara or Mara? I've had to go. In this case, it's Mara Maraquillo.

[Monica Padman]

Jack, go for it.

[Lena Waithe]

Please. Come on.

[Monica Padman]

Last week. Week or two weeks ago, I met Mara twice in, like, one week. She's stunning and she's incredible. I went to one of your events. Yeah, one of my events.

[Dax Shepard]

Monica's right into a lot of events,

[Monica Padman]

but she was at 2, and she's the best. And we exchanged numbers. I told her the story of the show, and she was like, I want to listen what episode? So I was like, sending her episode, so hopefully she'll hear this.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So big shout out.

[Lena Waithe]

Marbucker here. I'm gonna send it to her. I'm gonna send it up.

[Dax Shepard]

But that feels like a real blessing to Lane with that person as a potential mentor.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God. And she has. She has been. She came to the Queen as Limb premiere Gina Prince bythewood. I want to shout out as well, who wrote and directed Love and Basketball. Mara got me a job working for her on Secret Life of Bees once I was done with Mara, and then Gina got me a gig working for Ava DuVernay when she went to go direct her first film. So that's my trifecta of fairy godmothers in the business. And Gina just hit me, like, today because she got a chance to look at my play that I did in Baltimore. And her and Reggie Bythewood, her husband, who was also a big mentor of mine, they literally sent me a text today saying, hey, we love this play. It was very well done. Really proud of you. And I was like, my parents are telling me they're proud of me right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so when you leave that show, is your first staff writing job on Bones, or is it on the Nickelodeon show?

[Lena Waithe]

Nickelodeon was first and then I got Bones. So I did the half hour multicam, and then I did the hour long procedural.

[Dax Shepard]

And culturally going from so different. Yeah. And how did that go?

[Lena Waithe]

I kind of struggled on the multicam kids show thing because it's just sort of not my vibe.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not watching a lot of that.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. But, like, I needed a job. And the lead was a black girl, and so they couldn't hire Shout out to Izzy. I love him. He was like, all right, I must have you two black women split the check. Because he's like, otherwise I can only have one. I know. That's sort of how it goes. Not his fault. I mean, it's just the way it goes. They did like the paper team situation. So me, another black female writer shared an office and we were on a writing team then. I didn't, like, work for a bit, but I wrote the pilot of the Shy. Had the table read for it.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you sell it tonight, Nevins?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I love Nev.

[Lena Waithe]

I love him so much.

[Dax Shepard]

He's the best.

[Lena Waithe]

I call him my. My Clive Davis. He was like, come on in. He taught me a lot too. He said to me, whatever you don't get in your first season, you'll get in your second. Whatever you don't get in the second season, you'll get in your third. Or. It was so great at a breakfast, and he just sort of gave me such.

[Dax Shepard]

He bought the pilot in 15, but you didn't shoot it till 18.

[Lena Waithe]

We shot two pilots of it. We did one pilot and he said, this could be better. And he was right. And then we did it again. And then that was the one he greenlit.

[Dax Shepard]

So two things. A, hard D. Hear that? B, what a champion to say, go get it right. Yeah, right. Was it hard to hear it or did you know it as well? Or was he wrong?

[Lena Waithe]

No, he was right. Ultimately, I can't have to give him that I, though, didn't think the director we had for the first one was the right director for it. I will say that. And they were like, no, this is a big deal, by the way. No need to say his name or whatever, but no need to disrespect anyone because he is very talented and amazing. I just didn't think he was right for what I was doing. And so then we did that, and in essence, like, no, yeah, okay. We were both right. And so he said, let's go here. And we got Rick Famua, who directed Dope, who directed the Wood, and he directed the pilot of our show, which is a big reason why I think it went. And we had a beautiful cast, and Alex Hibbard, who came from moonlight right over to our set. And obviously Jason Mitchell was coming off of Straight Outta Compton, and Yolanda Ross and Jacob Lattimore. Just the whole cast was really wonderful. And they sort of brought us into this space of, oh, okay, this is the show. I always wanted to be an ensemble piece, but they were like, no, you need a lead. And then, of course, season three, I lead, was taken away due to some events. And then it became the show that I think I always intended it to be.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think this description's fair? I've read this many times where people say, like, it's a hopeful version of the Wire. I mean, that is maybe the greatest show ever made. So it never hurts to be in the same sentence more hopeful, you know?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, I definitely get the comparisons, for sure. And I think the Wire did something that hadn't been done on television before. And I never feel, like, weird about comparisons or people mentioning things in the same sentence, because I think that's such an honor. And I think the shy, really, for me, was the slice of life ensemble. I didn't want to necessarily go too deep into these different organizations or places or things like that, because I really wanted to have people in living rooms having conversations while people in living rooms are watching it and maybe be encouraged to have their own conversations. I'm a writer that I think leans into conversations, wanting to start conversations, not even wanting to start them, but wanting to have them. I love Matthew Lopez, phenomenal playwright, recently said to me, which, by the way, which he got from Mike Nichols, but he was saying that every conversation, there's like, three categories. It's like it's a negotiation, it's a seduction, or it's a competition or something like that. And so I really kind of carried that. And I'll be paraphrasing But I really do love the art of a conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Conversing. For me, it's a very fun game. It's like the best game. And you can play it all day long.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I just love games, and I think talking to people is just this super fun game.

[Lena Waithe]

Sometimes people like to be in combat, in conversation, and I prefer to be in dialogue. Meaning you're saying something. I'm digesting it. I say something, you digest it. And we can kind of accept that.

[Dax Shepard]

Mine would be opposite of comeback. It would be, I say something, and it opens the door for you to say something even scarier, which opens the door for me to say something even scarier. That, to me, is like the ratcheting up of it. Not like a conflict, more just like, I'm going here. Oh, fuck. Okay. I'll meet you there. And then plus one.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the fun game of it.

[Lena Waithe]

I love that. I think. Cause that's really how you get to be close. It's sort of saying, I'm gonna say something scary. And that gives me permission to say something scary too.

[Dax Shepard]

So I think Master Nun is a very interesting and probably unexpected deviation.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But ultimately has to be a wonderful thing to integrate into the overall thing.

[Lena Waithe]

It really changed my life.

[Dax Shepard]

I learned the story today. I would have assumed you and Aziz were friends and that the role was written for you.

[Lena Waithe]

I know, but that is not at

[Dax Shepard]

all what it was.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. No, not at all.

[Dax Shepard]

It was written for a white woman that might become his love interest.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, so walk us through.

[Lena Waithe]

I don't want to do it. He's like, I don't know if it was a white woman. It was just supposed to be a straight woman show.

[Monica Padman]

And tell us himself.

[Lena Waithe]

Look, here's the truth. I don't know how likely that is, but you get Brad Pitt as he's in. Sorry. I don't know. We'll see what happens.

[Monica Padman]

He's hard to get, this guy.

[Lena Waithe]

Trust me. I know. I know. I love him.

[Dax Shepard]

I love him.

[Lena Waithe]

He's my brother. He doesn't like to talk. He doesn't want to talk to people. Like, that's just how he is. He talked to Amy, which was surprising.

[Dax Shepard]

We've had maybe 15 text exchanges.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on.

[Dax Shepard]

And they're all about watches. I'm like, that's all we're going to do.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Take it. It's more than what started the show.

[Monica Padman]

There was, like, a list of, like, eight people that we wanted.

[Lena Waithe]

He'd be great, though.

[Monica Padman]

He's on there.

[Lena Waithe]

Having me here. Doesn't hurt, cuz now he'll be like, okay, all right, talk to me about it.

[Dax Shepard]

She lived.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lena Waithe]

I think she lived.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me call her first and make sure she lived.

[Lena Waithe]

Talk to me about it.

[Monica Padman]

No, the BAL thing's really going to throw him. He's like, I'm never going on there.

[Lena Waithe]

No, no, no. Oh, Jesus Christ. Again, I got to give a shout out to Allison Jones.

[Dax Shepard]

We had her on, by the way.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Friend of the pod.

[Lena Waithe]

That's right. I did, I watched. That's also a rare thing because she also. She doesn't talk to people.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Lena Waithe]

I just discovered.

[Dax Shepard]

But you know, not cuz she doesn't want to, per se. She made it very clear. She was so flattered. And no one ever cares about casting directors. She just didn't think anyone. She kept thinking, why are you interviewing so crazy?

[Lena Waithe]

Which is insane.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, it's insane, but it's very endearing.

[Lena Waithe]

She's phenomenal. She literally saw something I put out online, which I wasn't even in. It was a pilot presentation for a show I ultimately did called twenties. I put it out there because I wanted somebody to see it and go, okay, we could do this. And so then I got a call that she wanted to meet me. I didn't know who she was, but I went and sat with her and I walked by the. For Freaks and Geeks and Bridesmaids and Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

[Dax Shepard]

And I thought, okay, she's like, Lorne Michaels.

[Lena Waithe]

Got it. Yeah. So I sit across from her and I just talked to her about television. And she has such great taste and everything. And I talked about Maude and watching that and watching Golden Girls.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you pretty encyclopedic with TV stuff? Yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, I worked at Blockbuster for a while.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. And Best Buy and. Movie theater.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, in the movie theater.

[Dax Shepard]

You did your homework.

[Lena Waithe]

I do. I know all my stuff. So we were just like talking about the most randomest, like, things. And she just kind of goes, have you ever considered acting? And I said, I have not. She's like, okay. She's like, can I bring you in for some stuff? Just for like, you know, shits and giggles? And I was like, sure. And she did. She brought me in for Veep. And I wasn't able to really handle that because Julia Louis Dreyfus was like, in front of me. And so I wasn't expecting that. So I just like, completely fucked up.

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta be a fucking gunslinger to be on Veep. I was like, that's not a great Starter acting job.

[Lena Waithe]

But then she did bring me in for a tape, and I got to come back, which was cool. And then I got a call that said, can you just go meet with Aziz?

[Dax Shepard]

Wait, really quick. Can I ask.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

At that time, were you, like, extra money, or were you like, I want to act. I have a desire to act.

[Lena Waithe]

No, I just really trusted her instincts. I didn't think that that was something that was in the cards for me, though. I'm a writer. That's what I do. So because Aziz and her. She was obviously brought on to do the show. It didn't even have a title. It took forever for us to get the title of the damn show as untitled Aziz and sorry project, because y' all know how that goes. But obviously, I was a fan of Parks and Rec and knew his comedy, But I got a call that was from her office that says, why don't you go meet with Aziz? And I. I was like, why is it casting people calling me? What's about the staffing? And he was like, I don't know, but go meet with Aziz and Alan Yang. And obviously, I knew Alan Yang's name as well. And so I thought, okay, all right, I'll go sit with them. But it's from Allison's office, so this is strange. And they were like, I know. Just go to his house and sit and talk to him. And so I later found out that Aziz told her that he didn't want just people to come in and read with him. He wanted to meet people first and see if they were interesting and then read. So he just said to her, send me interesting people. And by the grace of God, she and I had just met, and she said, oh, Lena, waithe is interesting. You should meet her. And he was like, okay, I don't know who that is, but send it to the house. And so I went to his house and sat with him and Alan. Not unlike this, literally, kind of almost similar, the furniture and everything. And I just sort of talked to them like I would if it was a staff writing meeting, but it clearly wasn't. And I just was like myself. I had recently fallen in love. I was just being myself, comfortable with my own skin. And then I got the call. Okay, he wants you to read with him. And I was like, oh, okay. So he thought I was interesting. So I came in, sat down, read with him, and it was just instant. Then I came into temple, the casting couch. It was a very straight white woman sitting next to me, and she's like, are you going in for Denise. And I was like, yeah, are you going in for Denise? She was like, yeah. She's like, it's funny, we get bumping through each other all the time. And I was like, right, yeah, that's weird.

[Dax Shepard]

By the way, it's so much better.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah, it's best. It's way better.

[Dax Shepard]

None. Otherwise, when you sit down, it's like, yeah, I'm kind of the same, but way less good looking. Exactly.

[Lena Waithe]

You're like different variations of each other. And so as these. To me, what I looked at, it was Alan and Michael Scher too, who's our parent on that. It was basically them saying, this is the NBC 1994 version of this show. This one was, of course, when I come in, it's like, this is where shit is going. Like, this is what it is. And so I totally get what they were doing. And so obviously when I went in, I had a cold too. And when I went in, I was like, oh, I told Michael Strawber, this is my flu game. I'm finna talk right around this man. Cause I was like, let's go. Because I could just feel something was interesting. And of course, after I read and tested diseases like, come on, come and get me.

[Dax Shepard]

And were you encouraged to be loose and improv in that audition?

[Lena Waithe]

A little bit.

[Dax Shepard]

Because again, if I'm going from, okay, we have this one archetype, but we're trying this other thing out. Let's see all the flavors. Like, I would want to know they

[Lena Waithe]

knew I was a writer and they were like, you know, I didn't want to blend the two. So the season one, I didn't write anything. Me and Denise would have conversations where he would take little things from there and put it in there. But then season two in success, he was like, okay, I want to do a Denise centered episode. And I was in season two a lot less because I had gotten ready Player one. And that was a very interesting, tricky thing because it was like classic. Like, we got a season two and now you say you want to go do the Spielberg movie, only be in there for a couple episodes. And I was like, yeah. I was like, but this is an opportunity. I'll give you a great episode. Just talking shit, you know, I was like, I'll give you a great episode. It'll be fine, man. Don't worry about it. Like, I got to go do this movie. And he's all like, oh, God, classic. And so sure enough, he came to London where I was filming so he and I could write the episode. Cuz Actually, I told him, I said, I can't write that episode with you. I said, cuz, I got to focus on this movie, man. Like, how you get to be in a Steven Spielberg movie? I got to show up. He was like, if you don't write it with me, it's not happening.

[Monica Padman]

Uhhuh. Good for him.

[Lena Waithe]

And so I was like, fine.

[Dax Shepard]

And it won an Emmy.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, it did.

[Dax Shepard]

You won an Emmy for that?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Became the first black woman to win for outstanding writing in the comedy series. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So great.

[Dax Shepard]

And did you lie?

[Lena Waithe]

It took some getting used to because he did want me to be myself.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're in New York City.

[Lena Waithe]

I was in New York City, baby. Going to restaurants with him, like, just. I mean, he's like, showing me the reason I know how, like, eat oysters and like, caviar, all this kind of stuff. Because he's such an old school gentleman type guy.

[Dax Shepard]

He knows every restaurant. And I'm like, okay, this is all fascinating.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

What a tour guide to New York

[Lena Waithe]

he must have been. Oh, my God. I mean, even in London too, I watched the show.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, I want to spend a week with him and fucking meet him at crazy corners and eat shit.

[Lena Waithe]

I know.

[Monica Padman]

That's stopping eating.

[Dax Shepard]

Look at girls and eat shit.

[Lena Waithe]

Let's go talk shit about girls. No, it was fantastic. I remember we used to go see moonlight together and Barry Jacobs was doing a Q and A after, and it was just like, crazy. And then we were. Because we knew we had Thanksgiving coming up, and so we were like, oh, this is crazy. He's someone that is a big part of not just my career, but I think just my evolution as an artist and as a person in the world. And I'm really grateful for his existence because my career wouldn't look the way it does if it weren't for him and Alison Jones and Alan Yang and Michael Jordan and Netflix, those guys over there. It's just such a big part of my career now.

[Dax Shepard]

What did you have to learn to run the Chi?

[Lena Waithe]

I'd never run it. I'm not a showrunner.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you've never run it?

[Lena Waithe]

I did the showrunner training program with the wga and I realized, yeah, someone said getting your own TV show is like being beaten to death with your own dream. And nothing is truer than that.

[Dax Shepard]

I always say the hardest corn motherfuckers in all the show business are showrunners. You have to give it to them.

[Lena Waithe]

That's why I don't do it, because they're doing budgets. They're dealing with actors, they're dealing with

[Dax Shepard]

execs, they're the edit. They do every single piece of it.

[Lena Waithe]

The way I get to sit here, you know, shout out to Jewel and Justin who co showrun it together. I do think it's a two person job. I get to be the creator, you know what I'm saying? And I get to like give notes and things like that.

[Dax Shepard]

You were in the writers room.

[Lena Waithe]

I was in the writers room for season one and season two. And those are rocky times because I was a young buck. Like I was 30, 31. That's young to be a show creator. They have showrunners they put you with who are older and wiser, but at the same time, I'm doing something new and you're hold holding onto something old.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the inherent tension in all these situations.

[Lena Waithe]

Always is.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm trying to do something new. But you know how to do it right? Both of you are right.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, correct. But we're fighting. But you can't get the green light until they're like, well, we approve this guy to come oversee.

[Dax Shepard]

If they spend $100 million on something they want someone that has done it many times successfully.

[Lena Waithe]

I lightly call Michael Schur, our parent on, you know, master of none, because you need that person that's gonna kind of watch over. Okay, all right.

[Dax Shepard]

What are y' all doing?

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, what's happening? Okay, you wanna do what? That's the nature of the bees. And I think people that watch television don't always think about all those things. Or sometimes you have a whole episode and this act sick or this actor got a movie. Okay, you go here. We got to rewrite this and that changes that storyline. But we'll figure it out. These two actors, we wanted to be a couple, don't really have great chemistry. Okay, so we'll go over here. It's like all these different things.

[Monica Padman]

Creative. It's logistics.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, it's logistics. It's like, it's also a workplace. It's like everybody don't always get along.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, you're doing a lot of therapy for people.

[Monica Padman]

HR.

[Lena Waithe]

Exactly. Okay. HR deal with that. So it's just like, okay, it's eight seasons. I was like, yo, I'm going May 8th is. We're going to be in Chicago, last day of filming. We're going to do the and go promote it in New York.

[Dax Shepard]

Now explain this to me. So seasons one through five, 10 episodes. Season six, 16 episodes.

[Lena Waithe]

They did that. They asked us for more. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Season seven, 12. 12 and eight.

[Lena Waithe]

I asked us to go back to 10.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So for our last season, gonna be 10, baby. Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Unconventional. By the way, Parenthood, which I was on for six years, we never did a season of the same number, same thing. I was like, we did 13, we did 21, we did 18, we did 14, we did eight.

[Lena Waithe]

Was that because of the streamer or the network?

[Dax Shepard]

It was the network. It was like they would never kind of comm. We were always on the bubble all six years. And it was like, this year, good news. 16. We're like, what fucking. What number is that? You're either doing 13 or you're doing 22. At that time, we're gonna do 16. And then one year, we're gonna do it. They tell us midway through. I don't know. It was very confusing.

[Lena Waithe]

When they told us they wanted 16 episodes. We had already had our 10 episode pitch, so we had to go to them and say, well, you gotta give us a few more weeks to figure out what that is. And they're like, okay, but it's good news. They want more episodes. And like, I had a new guy that come over and he wanted more episodes. Cause it was doing well, but we had never told a story that way before. People don't realize. You'. You're like, okay, so we're gonna do 16. Got it. And then seven. Oh, you doing 12. Okay. And that's why they said, yo, eight. I gotta. This will be 10. Okay, cool. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have the pride of having a show that went eight seasons? This is like, you're in the thinnest of air.

[Lena Waithe]

I know there's a lot of gratitude, but also knowing that when we came on at that time, it was a different world. Eight years ago.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Lena Waithe]

Things were very different. Very different. Even more slightly more than eight. Cause we did the first pilot, then we did the second one. So we had a mini room and then this and that.

[Dax Shepard]

You mean you saw in 2015?

[Lena Waithe]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

So you've been doing this for 11 years?

[Lena Waithe]

Exactly. You've only seen eight seasons. But, you know, as a pilot, they'll never see the light of day. There's things that I've lived through that have really made me the artist I am now and made me someone that can really see things from a lot of different angles.

[Dax Shepard]

In 2018, you became the voice of at&t. I'm wondering what your tagline is. Can you say it? I want to hear it.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

He gets paid.

[Dax Shepard]

I made Billy Crudup do the Visa commercial. Priceless. Mastercard I made him do it to Monica. It was incredible.

[Lena Waithe]

Hold on. This is how, you know, I wrote

[Dax Shepard]

one to fuck with Monica that he had.

[Monica Padman]

MasterCard was fantastic. Fantastic.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

He did a cold read. It was perfect. What is.

[Lena Waithe]

What was my main? Because it was. It was like, what was my main thing? I'm forgetting it. Just okay is not okay. Just okay is not okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Is that it? Does that feel familiar?

[Lena Waithe]

It was that, but it was something else, too. It was something else.

[Dax Shepard]

How many years did you do that?

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, Matt did that for a few years. Like, maybe like three.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the best job in Hollywood.

[Lena Waithe]

At the crib, too.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And the pay is nice.

[Lena Waithe]

It is lovely.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a nice payday.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, it is. Minimal work situation.

[Dax Shepard]

If you looked at your career and you charted your hourly rate, there would just be this huge spike and it'd be your atm.

[Lena Waithe]

It's right there. It's right there. And people would recognize me from my voice. Speaking of the voice Delta. Yeah, they knew. They're like, your voice. Sound familiar?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, maybe Delta's, like, going to have a huge campaign.

[Lena Waithe]

No, she will. She will. She will.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm speaking that she's the kid who, you know, I'm certain to be wrong. What I love is she loves writing more than anything. She writes compulsively. We just had the conversation last night. You would love this. I imagine if you can imagine having a kid, this would be the ultimate conversation you could ever have. Right? She wants to win. There's like a writing competition at school to write basically the closing statement of elementary. And so all the kids are writing something. She really wants to get picked and to be able to read it on stage. She wrote it and then she read it to Kristen. And Kristin said, it's really good, but I think. And you're better off speaking to your dad about this, but I'm not sure that it's you. And so she came upstairs and she's like, mom said this. I'm gonna read it to me. And I got to have this conversation with her. And I said, the challenge as a writer is to never write for any. Anybody but you. And it's so hard.

[Lena Waithe]

That's true.

[Dax Shepard]

I said, so you could choose to write this to try to win a contest, or you could choose to write the story that you would tell your best friend Inka about your experience at cwc. What would you say about your experience to Inka, your best friend? And she was like, I get that.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I get that. And I was like, this is like the dream of all dreams. Have a conversation like that with my daughter about what it means to find your voice as an artist.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, that's good.

[Dax Shepard]

I was just floating on a cloud. This whole conversation, it was so fun.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, it's interesting because I am childhood childless by choice. And we talked about this a little bit. Like, if you don't remember that I'm still in that camp. It's so fascinating because there's so many things that I think about in terms of, like, why I don't want to be a parent. A lot of it is because you have to have a sort of mental capacity for that at the end of a day. What's interesting is you have the capacity to sit and, like, hear it, give the note, you hear the rewrite. You gonna maybe be there if she wins, you know, it's gonna be. It's a lot of energy. If she doesn't get it, then there's also that, you know, emotional showing up that you'll do.

[Dax Shepard]

The most likely thing is if she succeeds at writing the things she'd really tell her friend Inca, it's not gonna get picked.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, well, who knows? We don't know that.

[Dax Shepard]

We don't know. But at this age, at this age, in that context, it probably won't be rewarded. Originality in true voice.

[Lena Waithe]

But that's also another lesson you got to teach.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I told her. I said, look, hon, she's gonna set her up.

[Lena Waithe]

Just. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, luckily, I got Storyteller. It's like, I've always written what I wanted, and it didn't work. It didn't always work well. I wanted a car chase movie. That was a love story. Nobody wants that. I wanted that. And it didn't work, but I kept doing it. And one day the podcast happened. It took so many years of me being truthful to that. Sometimes it takes a while. But you will have the pride of having always told the story you wanted to tell, and that is invaluable and worth more than any amount of money you could have made.

[Lena Waithe]

Absolutely where I do that, because I have this mentorship program where there's writers, there's actors, there's people who want to be execs, and I get on zooms with them once a month, and they can ask me whatever they want. We have these lovely private conversations. And I think that's where I realized, oh, that's where I can show up and be real. Because also, it's that element, too, of being supportive and encouraging, but also being grounded and being realistic and I think that is the path you're walking with your kid. Maybe for me, as a man, which I've become, and I try to do that, it's still a responsibility, you know, but I think you're doing. I always say parents are doing God's work because it's a different kind of responsibility that you have. This is a person that is a reflection of you, but also you want to make sure that they're on a carbon copy of you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

So it's like you got to give her guidance, but also make sure she has a space to become more of herself.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Extra expert, if you dare. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now, that's where ServiceNow's AI specialist come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

[Monica Padman]

They never are.

[Dax Shepard]

To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. The thing you fight the most as a parent constantly is they are their own thing.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dax Shepard]

It's all you're doing. Like, you're trying your hardest.

[Lena Waithe]

But think about how many parents don't do that. There's so many parents whose children are really doing the thing that parents want them to do.

[Dax Shepard]

It's very natural and gratifying to see yourself in other things. We search for that and that's how we bond. And it's great. Invariably you do that. You see all these things that are similar to yourself in it, and it's very, very gratifying. But then you have to go like. And that's 10% of them I might miss. The other 90% does not like me at all because I'm not looking for it.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

You got to remind yourself to constantly look for it. Back to the baby thing. So what happened to me was a. I've always wanted kids, so that's standard. But also I had a friend who had a daughter who I just fell in love with. I'd take her trick or treat, and she'd ride on My shoulders. And I just constantly was like, if I don't get a Madeline before I die, I'm going to be built for it. Yeah, I'm built for it. But Delta, fuck you up a little bit.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah, no, here's.

[Monica Padman]

That's another problem.

[Lena Waithe]

No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause then I'll meet kids and I'm like, oh, can my kid be cool and chill?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And like this and that. But then the tricky part is though, they gonna have moments of not being chill, not being cool, like upset. It's just a lot going on.

[Dax Shepard]

There is a lot.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, I'm just like, how much do I have? Like, I got responsibility for myself, my community, my work.

[Monica Padman]

And you feel fulfilled.

[Lena Waithe]

I do, yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

You're like, I'm whole.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. And I do think it can be very societal. I think sometimes people say, oh, why'd you wanna have kids? Oh, you know, on that age, I couldn't finally afford it. Or it's that time. And although now there's something every other week there's an article in New York Times about people can't afford to have the children now, so they're deciding not to for certain reasons. Or people don't like the world they may be bringing them into. But for me, it's more of an internal thing about what do I actually have the mental capacity for. What I also think about is at the end of a long day, what do I wanna do with myself. And I think the first thing is to not take. Take care of someone else.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

[Lena Waithe]

Because it's a different kind of thing that you're doing. Because also anything could happen with kids. Like they fall, break something, they say,

[Dax Shepard]

can I hit you with something?

[Lena Waithe]

Go ahead.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, I'm trying to convince you.

[Lena Waithe]

No, no, no, no. Go.

[Dax Shepard]

But I'm just. I just want to point out a lot of these counterintuitive things.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You might be shocked to learn or find out or experience that taking care of them is taking care of yourself in a way that was unimaginable.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

The amount of healing and perspective that's happening in those moments and the right sizing of concerns and all these existential things you have in the racket in your head and the things that are important. Like somehow it can alleviate all of those things. It's like you think you're going to be overwhelmed. But weirdly, it prioritizes things in this way. Oh, this is weirdly nurturing to me. And has. Yeah. Just prioritized Things in a very clean and lovely. Like, here's what I miss about being an addict. The beauty of being an addict is you have a single goal.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, it's true.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm telling you, it's a liberating, fun thing. It's like, I have one mission today. Do not fall off of this high. That's so peaceful.

[Lena Waithe]

Is it difficult for you to watch stuff like Euphoria or like, I love it. So you can watch.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I love it.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I know it's not like I just see it. I'm like, oh, I've been in that room. I know this thing. Yeah, I love it.

[Lena Waithe]

Gotcha.

[Dax Shepard]

Some addicts can't watch this.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah. But I hear you, because I love. Jada Pinkett calls her children her teachers. She says, they teach me things about herself, all that kind of stuff. And I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at parenthood, because obviously you're thinking this the other way around. But I think for me, I am taught something by human beings every single day. And that's why I feel like I don't need to produce one or have somebody produce one. Because it really is a writer's job to be a witness to really look at human behavior and try to understand it and accept things about it that don't make sense to us sometimes. Because when I look at society, it's easy to get frustrated. But rather I say, why are we behaving this way? Because it's not out of sheer desire for destruction. It's out of the sheer desire to be seen, to be loved, to be a part of something. And so I think, yeah, I may not be a parent, and I don't have a desire to be, but I think what I do have a desire to do is to understand humanity and have empathy for us and be able to reflect us back to ourselves so that way we could better understand.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, Chelsea Handler says this so perfectly all the time. She's like, I don't have kids, so I have the capacity to give to all these other kids. Like, she's.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah. A lot of my friends have kids.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And just like she gives all these charities, she's just like, I have space. If I had a kid, I could not feasibly do all of that.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. And I will say my friend Melina Matsoukas, who has a little one who's like her son, who's not yet one, and he is in that space of when I come over there, I can just, like, hold him. And I. I was over there holding him, and she's like, you come over here to get your baby fixed.

[Monica Padman]

That's the problem.

[Lena Waithe]

And I was like, what?

[Monica Padman]

No, no.

[Lena Waithe]

Because when I hand him back, when I'm sitting there also low key, getting tired. He's getting heavy as hell. Yeah, he's heavy. She noticed. I'm like, girl, this is not normal, girl. What is happening? What's in the breast milk? She's like, I know, child. But as I give her back. Cause I'm like, yo, I'm exhausted before I leave. And she's just like, let's just give her back over here. I was like, yeah, I want to give him back. I want to give Rakim back.

[Dax Shepard]

We had a terrifying moment when Kristen was probably, like six months pregnant. We went out to eat with our friends the Hansons, and they already had two little kids. And we were at Bob's Big Boys trying to have dinner. Impossible. It was not possible to have dinner with these kids there.

[Lena Waithe]

So you guys were like, look what we're about to do.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Lord, we can't go to Bob's Big Boys anymore. Like, that's a wrap on going out to fucking eat a hamburger.

[Lena Waithe]

Y' all don't want to leave the house, though. Let's keep it up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, now we have an excuse. So you got that built in excuse. That's nice.

[Lena Waithe]

That's other thing. Parents don't be going nowhere anytime.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't want to go somewhere. There's a play that night.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, look, see, look. I'm here. I go out. I go out a little bit. Yeah, I'm outside a little bit.

[Dax Shepard]

Just a little bit. You're social. You've been since elementary. Problem.

[Lena Waithe]

Social? Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's your life. It's your life force.

[Lena Waithe]

You're social, too. I am. You're social, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Drives my wife crazy. Like, how many people do you need to talk to? I'm like, everyone, hopefully. I think there's like 7 billion left I have to talk to.

[Lena Waithe]

It's like, it's your job. It's your job.

[Dax Shepard]

She always says the greatest gift about this show is that, like, I do get to talk myself out enough so that's. I'm tolerable at night. Yeah, yeah. The load's not all on her shoulders.

[Lena Waithe]

I love you guys. I love you guys together. I'm not Team Cher. What happened? I'm not. I'm not. I'm like, guys, no. I said Internet. What are you doing?

[Dax Shepard]

Can I tell you my conclusion? I think it's A good one. Oh, God.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's all we got asked about when we got nominated this year. But I think my final conclusion on it is, the best way for me to digest that is nobody's good enough for her.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

And I love that, and that's true. But I'm the next best thing.

[Lena Waithe]

That's right, brother. Yeah. Yeah. You're killing it. You're killing it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the message. The message isn't against me.

[Lena Waithe]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

It's nobody's good enough for her. And I love that. I'm glad that's how she feels about her, and I'm glad that's how America feels about her.

[Lena Waithe]

This is real. This is real.

[Dax Shepard]

I can live with that.

[Lena Waithe]

But to me, I just love what you two represent, which is 1950s old school. No. But I think sometimes people have an idea of who they're supposed to be with. That idea is never as good as who they're actually supposed to be with.

[Monica Padman]

She said I was supposed to marry, like, head of unicef.

[Dax Shepard]

You're supposed to marry Mike Sher.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, a good boy.

[Lena Waithe]

Mike's pretty successful, and he's just a good human being. Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

He wakes up thinking how he can help other people. I don't. I wake up thinking about speedboats.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, should I order a Donzi or buy a used one?

[Lena Waithe]

No. But you also the type of person that said, I got to get a meline before I die.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

[Lena Waithe]

That's real.

[Dax Shepard]

I do want to ask one thing, and you can say no.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But you were with someone for a couple years.

[Monica Padman]

Uhhuh.

[Dax Shepard]

And then you got married, and it only lasted a couple months.

[Monica Padman]

Uhhuh.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm dying to know if something about the title. Everyone up, or you.

[Lena Waithe]

It wasn't the title. No. Okay. It was me also feeling like even though I'm not as happy as I should be, I think this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And I just didn't have the language or understanding of that. My happiness didn't feel like it was important. I think what was most important was that I. I honor this relationship.

[Dax Shepard]

Keep this thing going, whether you're enjoying

[Lena Waithe]

it or not, because of how much it's changed my life and how grateful I am for it and how amazing this human is. And I don't want to say happiness. I don't want to be frivolous about that. Like, I think we wanted different things. One of the things is, like, I actually realized I didn't want to have children. And that's a pretty big life change. And so. But at that time, I just thought. I just kept putting it off. And so that wasn't me lying. It was me still trying to understand what I wanted and who I wanted to be. And I think that's why, for me, it's really important, having this perspective, stepping back. It's like we have to really ask ourselves whose life we want to. Because a marriage and a relationship is the blending of two lives, truly. And so you have to really ask yourself, what life do I actually want? And I don't think I was very clear about that. All I knew was, I want to be with this person. I want to have this house. I want to have this dog. I want to have this mural. But then I didn't ask myself, but, like, where do you want to be in five years? Like, really?

[Dax Shepard]

And in its best version, it's like, I wanted this life, this person wanted this life. And then magically, when we get together, the two of us get a life that neither of us even thought of.

[Lena Waithe]

Right. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And that's, like, maybe the greatest thing that can happen.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. I mean, or you could say, yo, we have impacted each other's lives in such a significant way, and now this might be where we give each other room to go and have lives that make sense for both of us and that might be together.

[Monica Padman]

That's hard to do.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. But I didn't do it in a way that was noble, that was honest, that was kind. It was done in a way that felt like a car crash. And that's because I just sort of, like, was driving the car too fast, not knowing the gear, and just sort of going. And that doesn't remove accountability for my behavior.

[Dax Shepard]

It's hard to exit these things elegantly. Very few people.

[Lena Waithe]

I wish I could have, you know, landed the plane better.

[Dax Shepard]

You know what I mean?

[Lena Waithe]

But I think ultimately, and again, it's about giving yourself grace and kind of looking back at it, going, oh, you could have handled that much better. You could have dealt with that in a different way. But what I do also understand, accept, is that I'm where I'm supposed to be. I know she's where she's supposed to be, and I don't have any ill will toward anyone. If anything, well, it's toward myself.

[Dax Shepard]

That's. I think, for me, the greatest feeling is I was with a woman for nine years. I still love her to death. We're friends, and her life turned out so fucking good. Nice and I'm like, oh, yes.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah. This part of life is like 10 times better.

[Dax Shepard]

That's where it could kill you. If you crash the car and the person's fucked up, that's hard to live with. But if, like, you can look back and like, oh, good, she's so happy. She has the perfect husband and the perfect kids and fucking so happy.

[Lena Waithe]

And that to me is how you know you really love somebody. Is that when you want them to be happy and happier without you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Because I don't know if that happiness would have ensued if I would have stayed there. To me, removing myself, I think was actually the right thing to do because I wouldn't have been able to deliver the life that I think she would have wanted.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What are you most excited to do? You've done so many things. You have created many, many shows. You have them on Amazon, obviously.

[Lena Waithe]

We have the Shy.

[Dax Shepard]

The Shy. Yeah. Wrapping up May 22, coming out.

[Lena Waithe]

Coming out May 22. Paramount. Last season. The. The Shy says goodbye.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Shy says goodbye. What are you dying to do? You're also a producer on Cats, which has got nominated.

[Lena Waithe]

Angelica Ball, myself, Cynthia Erivo, Jeremy Pope laroch. John Legend dominated today for. For nine nominations.

[Dax Shepard]

Nine nominations.

[Lena Waithe]

One of the ones. Thank you so much. One of the ones I'm in there is for best revival of a musical.

[Dax Shepard]

Uh huh.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Now let me ask you, were you a fan of Cats?

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The whole time I'm like, what's going on?

[Lena Waithe]

And then I went to go see. This version is told through queer black ball culture, which really makes so much sense. It lends itself to this world so well. It's almost like it was meant for this world.

[Dax Shepard]

Couldn't agree more.

[Lena Waithe]

It's phenomenal. It was perfect.

[Dax Shepard]

That world would have made sense in the ball world and almost nowhere else.

[Lena Waithe]

Exactly. Paris is Burning. I highly recommend everybody check out also Criterion Collection. Jenny Livingston, phenomenal documentary. Changed my life as well.

[Dax Shepard]

What's that about?

[Lena Waithe]

That's about the ball culture. She made a documentary about it when she was coming out of nyu. And it just is a movie that has been such an archival of our queer black ancestors and what they were doing at the time and the things that they were saying, but also speaks to reality of the time, what was going on. So obviously love that. And then I went to go see this show at PAC was where it started and I was blown away by it. And then I wanted to be a part of it and they were kind enough to let me join the team. And came over to Broadway and here we are.

[Monica Padman]

Really.

[Dax Shepard]

So do you want to do another show next or do you want to do a movie or do you want to do more AT&T commercials?

[Lena Waithe]

I'm doing a movie, writing a movie now as an actor of a short story called Grand Rising, which is something that you guys. If I say that, you kind of go like, huh. I don't know what it is. It's a different way that sometimes black folks and certain groups say good morning instead of good morning. They say grand Rising.

[Monica Padman]

Ooh.

[Lena Waithe]

Grand Rising is something that sometimes I feel like a little more enlightened. You sort of say that. So the woman wrote this amazing short story. I read it, loved it. I raised my hand to see if I could possibly come on and adapt it. They were kind enough to trust me with that. Fox Searchlight is doing it. We're not telling much about what the movie is because I think that's the new thing now. Be a little bit mysterious about the storyline. Let folks come experience it for themselves and see what it is. But I'm working on that right now. A couple TV show ideas. Maybe wanna play with like what it is to be in your 40s. So stay tuned. And then, yeah, theater, theater, theater. That's what I care so much about. Just. Cause I think with everything happening with the streamers and people not really wanting to go see the movies, live entertainment is something that we can't deny. And it's like station 11. It's like they're going around town performing Shakespeare for the people, for entertainment. Because when all of this stuff is shuts down, what do you have as people that can interpret words on a page and inspire you and move you? I think it's why Hamnet hit us all. Shakespeare sort of wrote about the most difficult thing he ever had to experience. And we just know it to be one of his great works. But to see that movie and to see how that story was happening in real time, obviously the way they were showing it just reminds me that this is how we actually look like to be communicated with.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen it yet.

[Lena Waithe]

It's okay. Don't worry about it.

[Dax Shepard]

I have kids. Isn't there.

[Lena Waithe]

That's another excuse. Yeah, that's okay. She didn't see F1 when Brad came. She was like, I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not with.

[Monica Padman]

I didn't know why I was editing this show.

[Lena Waithe]

I couldn't make it like Brad. I haven't seen a movie continue.

[Dax Shepard]

I hear it's I hear is fine. I heard you're fine. I heard you look fine.

[Monica Padman]

I can see that. You are fine.

[Lena Waithe]

You look good in it. Nah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So theater's my shit, Lena.

[Dax Shepard]

I just. I adore you. I really, really, really like you.

[Lena Waithe]

That feeling is mutual.

[Dax Shepard]

I really, really like you. I'm so glad I got to spend a couple hours with you that day. And my heart swells when I think of you. And I'm really glad you came. And I want everyone to watch the final season of the shy May 22 on Paramount. Go see Cats. Yes, please watch them.

[Lena Waithe]

I was a part of season one of them. Covenant, season two. I wasn't, but I think seasons are really strong.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Also, Tony's. We're putting out good vibes.

[Dax Shepard]

Come on, win all the Tonys.

[Lena Waithe]

Tony.

[Dax Shepard]

The Anthony's, as I call them. Get you a couple Anthony's. Anthony, let's get that egot going.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on, let's go.

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Lena Waithe]

God damn me. We gonna see what happens.

[Dax Shepard]

All right. Be well. Thanks for coming.

[Lena Waithe]

Huge news, by the way. Thank you so much.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

[Monica Padman]

What's up?

[Dax Shepard]

What it is?

[Monica Padman]

What is up?

[Dax Shepard]

How are you?

[Monica Padman]

I'm good.

[Dax Shepard]

You're good?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Okay. Well, we both went to Delta's play.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my heavens. That was a big event.

[Monica Padman]

It was a huge event.

[Dax Shepard]

Big event in events that happened within the event.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell, do tell.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Mary Poppins.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think some backstory is necessary and you can help me be objective here. But Delta's like. She's never been super into acting or musical theater or singing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, just a mild interest. I think she's done a few little plays. I think she did last year's school play, but she just seems. She seems to be in it for the social aspect of it, which is great. So we all went. You, Anna, me, Kristen. Who else was in that one o' clock show?

[Monica Padman]

Kristen's mom and dad.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. Kristen's mom and stepdad. And for the first two thirds of the play, no Delta.

[Monica Padman]

She's not in it.

[Dax Shepard]

She was not in it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you were directly behind us with Anna. And we were having some fun up until then. Right.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because there's a lot of goof. It was the first run through of it. There's. Yeah, there's lots of mic errors. There's, you know, there's the expected stuff.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, we've discussed the plays before.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's the whole. It's the whole school. So there's second graders out there, you know.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And everyone did a great job. Everyone did a great job. And it was also very fun.

[Monica Padman]

You know, you can hear the mics in the back. You know, the same, same. Same old stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. All the standard. Fair. And I think even Anna said, is delta in this, you know, at some point.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Then she came out. She was Mrs. Anderson for people don't remember. And I'm not super well versed in Mary Poppins.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Meredith Poppins.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

She splits at one point and they bring in Mrs. Anders. And she's an old fashioned. Old.

[Monica Padman]

Is it Anders or Anderson?

[Dax Shepard]

Anders or Anderson? You know, take your pick.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

Our tomato.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

She comes out and she's a bitch. She's mean to the girls and she's shoving people around.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And right when she came out, she. Full commitment, full energy.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. She came out with a real presence.

[Dax Shepard]

A real presence, a real intention.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Her. Immediately, her dictation was off the charts.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. They have to do accents, which I should. I just wish they would take that off these kids plates.

[Dax Shepard]

I think, you know, all in all, they did pretty darn good.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I think if you got, like, adults to do it, that accents would have been much worse. Like just a random sampling of adults doing British accents.

[Monica Padman]

That's probably true.

[Dax Shepard]

I was like, it's not. I was expecting real.

[Monica Padman]

It could be worse.

[Dax Shepard]

Some real snafu.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I just feel like they should have taken that with what was going on. Like, they needed enough on their play. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But anyway, she did a great accent.

[Dax Shepard]

She did a great accent and you could understand everything she said. And she was projecting. She was loud.

[Monica Padman]

She was.

[Dax Shepard]

And then she has a song. Solo song. All right, maybe you take over now, because I might sound too subjective as a father.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I'm subjective, too. I don't know that I can. Very objective. Yeah. But no, she just did so. She just, like, had so much confidence. She sang it so well. She wasn't like, you know, you're kind of scared when these kids are singing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Like, obviously anyone's singing. If in any play, it's like, oh, God, like, what if they mess up? Or what if they. It's very stressful. And she just knocked it out of the park and was so confident and, like, loud. Like, she belted, like, with her diaphragm. Like, she did it all right. And it was. Oh, it was so wonderful.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Two mega belts. It was the last one with her on top of a staircase. And she looked. Looked Possessed.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

She, like, the level of commitment, and she was screaming to the rooftops, and it was holding.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I couldn't believe it.

[Monica Padman]

I couldn't believe it. I mean, from last year's play to this year's play. Major jump.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my goodness.

[Monica Padman]

Major jump.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, we have four performers in the family.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And she just threw down a performance that I think might top, you know, both Kristen and I's professional work.

[Monica Padman]

Well, okay. I don't want to. Now. I guess we are getting subjective, because that's not true. But. But it was like. I think last year at this time, we had this conversation here that was a little touchy, but I was like, she's not committed. Like, no.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, she was more. Her mission on that previous one, as we talked about, was to make sure everyone else was doing.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

She was being very bossy, like, vocally, like, up on stage, like, tell people, get over here.

[Dax Shepard]

Get over here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I was like, oh, no. Like, I wish you would just commit.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

No.

[Monica Padman]

And then, boy, did she take the note. I mean, I didn't give it, but.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right.

[Monica Padman]

She learned on her own. And she really just.

[Dax Shepard]

She brought the house down.

[Monica Padman]

It was so good.

[Dax Shepard]

It was so exciting.

[Monica Padman]

I said, we cheered like it was a Super Bowl.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I said, wow. Okay. So that's what the experience is for these people who have kids that are great athletes and, like, score a touchdown. I've really had that experience. Yet no touchdowns in the family. No. No goals scored. And this was. I get how the parents get addicted to it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

It was so exciting.

[Monica Padman]

I know. Yeah. We were rowdy, screaming for her. It did. Remind me. I told you this, but there's a picture of the state championship second year, I think, maybe first year. I don't remember, but there's a picture I. Of the parents. And, you know, everyone is just, like, freaking out. There's this picture of my dad is out of his. Wearing a hat. He's, like, wearing a boa. And. Yeah. They, like, hand these out or. So in my head, he has a boa. Maybe. Then he's like, yeah, up out of his seat screaming. And it does. It takes over. It takes over when your kid is, like, crushing. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It's so exciting.

[Dax Shepard]

And then the moment that was tied for that moment where she was on the steps at the end yelling from the bottom of her soul as loud as she could, was I was. And Lincoln was there all day volunteering to help all the girls backstage get in their outfits.

[Monica Padman]

And as an. As an alumni.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes. And I had this, you know, 30% anxiety over. Okay, well, one child has already declared this as her path. The younger sibling now has just come out and crushed.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

What will this reaction be?

[Lena Waithe]

You know, what will.

[Dax Shepard]

Seen her get so much attention and praise from us. Do. I had some anxiety about that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think you were standing there.

[Monica Padman]

It was.

[Dax Shepard]

So when Lincoln ran out and they met each other in. In the.

[Monica Padman]

Gave her a huge hug, and she

[Dax Shepard]

picked her up off the ground and squeezed her, and she was genuinely so pumped for.

[Monica Padman]

She was so proud of her. It was so sweet. It was so sweet.

[Dax Shepard]

My heart was just destroyed at that moment. I'm like, oh, yeah, siblings, man.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's more important than anything else.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, no, you know, I don't know. You don't know about that statement.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So it was.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you ever see Neil crush at anything and did you give him the full.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

No. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Only now, I mean, he's crushing at father. He's about fire.

[Dax Shepard]

Fatherhood.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. No, no. I was really hard on him.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But he needed it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, he needed it. He's. Look at him now. He's doing great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

My mothering. But yeah. No, it was really, really sweet, and I loved it. And then there was a five o', clock, which I didn't go to, but there was a big incident.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. So we're at the five o', clock, the curtains down.

[Lena Waithe]

We're.

[Monica Padman]

We're intermission, right?

[Dax Shepard]

It wasn't intermission. It was just between some scenes where there was a little down time.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

And so the curtain was down. And then all of a sudden, you hear from the audience this horrendous crashing sound.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's like. It's substantial. Right. The. The kind of ground shook.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And my only thought was, like, oh, did one of the sets. Because they had pretty big sets on stage. Like two story sets. Did one fall forward?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And oh, my God, where are the kids?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so I'm thinking this. And then Kristen jumps up and goes backstage because she's like, you know, clearly something's happened. You can hear kids back there. Like, they weren't screaming, but there were noises.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So she goes back there, scopes out, comes back, and she's like, you are not gonna believe the size of this tree that just fell into the school. And so after the play, I went and looked back, and there's this, like, you know, like, cement balcony with, like, a really huge t. Steel railing, maybe a loading dockish thing off the back of the Gym. And this enormous tree, like the width of our oak tree in the front yard. Like the. The trunk had to be like 36 inches in diameter, maybe more. It just exploded and it fell in all these directions. It bent like the. The big fence post size railing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Was just crunk pulled like a taco. Huge branches on there. A table that they were all sitting on.

[Monica Padman]

So scary.

[Dax Shepard]

10 minutes before was flattened. It's crazy. And I was like, oh my God. I just was like, yeah. My first thought was, oh, this is why it's completely pointless to worry about your children because you're not even gonna think to worry about. I hope a random tree doesn't fall on them. On the playground of the school.

[Monica Padman]

Some people do think, like, I though, but it's almost too much.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not. Generally people are worried about kidnapping and all these other things.

[Monica Padman]

That's true. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's like, okay, so thus far, the closest call we've ever had was just a tree exploded in the backyard of the school.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, freak accidents do happen.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It's very scary and like, you just

[Dax Shepard]

don't even know what to worry about. That was my thing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. That's a good takeaway.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, yeah, that's crazy. That was almost a fucking newsworthy disaster.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God. That would have been so.

[Dax Shepard]

It was crazy.

[Monica Padman]

But everyone will have a different takeaway. Someone will be like, I knew God was real. You know, Someone will say Simmy probably. Yeah. There's. There's a lot of takeaways. You just choose. Yeah. You get to pick.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I mean, I don't think there's much meaning behind it for me other than just, oh, it's a good reminder that, like, life's that way and. And it's really pointless to even worry about anything.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a great example of confirmation bias. Right. It's like, whatever. Your overarching theory on life is everything. Every bit of proof will file in and support that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's like for you, that that proves the world scarier.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I didn't say that or I

[Dax Shepard]

sorry, didn't mean to give you that.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Label.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And then for me, it immediately confirms, like, yeah, what a waste of time to worry.

[Monica Padman]

I don't, I don't think I thought, like, the world's scarier. I just feel like, yeah, things go wrong all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But also I think like, wow, so lucky. Just like, oh, God. Yeah, lucky. And we're just missing things all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Just like constantly avoiding catastrophe. All the time.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But. Yeah, like yesterday I was walking down the street, and there were so many, many cop cars, but they weren't regular cop cars. They were all, like, just, like, black, Unmarked. Unmarked. But then one was, like, on, like, headlights or whatever in the back, but there were so many in a row.

[Dax Shepard]

Where was this at?

[Monica Padman]

On Western. And I was just walking by, noticing all these cars, and. And I was like, oh, well, something is going on. Something probably bad. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I thought, oh, do I. Should I go home? Like, this is right where I'm about to be.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And you're going to Cara. Yeah, I was walking to Cara, and so it was next to Cara by

[Dax Shepard]

the Baskin Robbins or that weird apartment building between. That sketchy apartment building.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I was like, I mean, there could be a bomb in there. Should I go home? But then I was like, I mean, they'll probably get it, tell us to leave. Like, they. I. I guess I trust that someone in charge would tell us to leave there. And there was a cop on the street, and he just said, hi when I walked by. So I was like, I can't be that bad, right?

[Dax Shepard]

He didn't say, ma', am, go on the other side of the street.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. Or you shouldn't be here. Ma', am. Ma', am, you shouldn't.

[Dax Shepard]

You didn't ask him what was cracking?

[Monica Padman]

I wanted to. I should have. And then. Because when we left, that's still there. And someone was yelling at them because cars were blocked in and he was yelling, Yelling. And I didn't want to bother them.

[Dax Shepard]

They're probably executing a search warrant.

[Monica Padman]

He said. When I. I heard one of the cops say something, like, when we finished the invest. We're almost finished with the investigation.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

So.

[Dax Shepard]

So someone went missing.

[Monica Padman]

And I was like, maybe it's a bomb or maybe it's a jumper or maybe it's a big drug. Like, probably a big drug situation or hijack sex work. It could be a sex situation, a negotiation, stand up hostage negotiation. I mean, there could have been so many things. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you'd be like, I wish he would have asked because he would have told you you're a cute young girl. He would have, like, wanted to tell

[Monica Padman]

you, thought about it.

[Dax Shepard]

You'd have made it a little more dangerous than it was. Like, yeah, we just, you know, we. You probably, like, you know, fluffed it up a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

Officer, should I go home?

[Dax Shepard]

Am I safe to go home? Or should I stay next to you?

[Monica Padman]

Will you protect me?

[Dax Shepard]

I feel safer next to you?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

He's like, I'm just coming out. I was first one in. So they told me, go ahead and have 10 minute break. Which is why I'm out here. But I was.

[Monica Padman]

But normally I'm in there.

[Dax Shepard]

I was, I was first one in there. Once I saw it was not dangerous, then I was.

[Monica Padman]

It's not dangerous.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, it could be. Could always be. Could always get dangerous. Probably. You want to stay close.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What are you doing for dinner?

[Monica Padman]

I'm hanging out with my friend Jess. You'd love him.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you can go. All right. Have fun. I think we're all wrapped up here.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, this is interesting. On okay. Dates. So we have a friend who just went on a first date.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, we do.

[Monica Padman]

And, oh, this person brought me up a few times because I'm in stories.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then at some point the girl. A girl. It was a girl on the date. It's a lesbian on a date with a girl. Okay, okay. And she brought me up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then at some point the girl. Girl on the date said, should I know who that is?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

And then my friend said, oh, she's my friend. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I. Then she was telling me this and I was like, yeah, this is tricky. It's. It can get tricky if you're bringing up your friends a lot on a date, but they don't really know the backstory. They don't know like the level of

[Dax Shepard]

friendship or whether either part party are compatibly.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Sexually attracted to one another. Yeah. If you're bringing up Jess all the time.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

They don't know he's gay. You got to go, my gay friend Jess. You go, my gay friend Jess.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

She should have said my straight friend Monica.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but that seems like a weird thing to say. Like. Oh, I mean, he comes up like he, He's. He comes up. Right. And so, yeah, I guess I have to say, like, oh, my. My friend. I think I'll just say my friend, friend Jess and maybe it'll be obvious he's gay.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I don't know. I don't know. To me it's obvious he's gay. But I met him.

[Monica Padman]

You know him.

[Lena Waithe]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He at least has a name that could pass as a female.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, right. That is true.

[Dax Shepard]

But if you're talking about Beefy Burger or anything penis related, he'll.

[Monica Padman]

Don't think I'm probably going to bring up Beefy Burger yet.

[Lena Waithe]

Yet.

[Monica Padman]

It will come up. It will come Up. But anyway. Yeah. It's like a weird thing about how much you talk about the other people in your life on a date. On a date. I think it's only the opposite sex if you're straight and same sex if you're gay.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's only a thing if you're talking about your ex a lot,

[Lena Waithe]

which is also fine on a first day.

[Dax Shepard]

There are versions of it that's are totally fine.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

If you still have complicated feelings about your ex.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not the place to discuss that. Nor is it this new person. Their. Their duty to comfort you through that.

[Monica Padman]

Right. There are all these rules if you've

[Dax Shepard]

been with someone for a decade and you're talking about your life.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then when you're gonna ignore the last 10 years of your life, you know, like, of course, if you were

[Monica Padman]

with someone, come up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I don't think that's a big deal.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think it is a big deal either for me. But I think a lot of people would say that's wrong. Like everyone has.

[Dax Shepard]

These people are really insecure and that's their issue.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think the thought of someone have. Having had an ex is too disturbing for you.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

You have some insecurities.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not. It's not that other person's.

[Monica Padman]

I know. I think I am kind of like. I want to know.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. All the details.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I do.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But I don't want them to ask me, so I think I'm just leaving that off. I think it's like a. It's just like, hey, what kind of

[Dax Shepard]

questions would you want to ask?

[Monica Padman]

Not talk about any of our past.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. But we're. We're now on a date. We're on a date.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I like, further along, we're dropping into like the. The I want to know exactly, like what kind of info you're interested in. About the ex. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Because I think so. Well, you have to bring her up, I guess.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we had to. We were sharing our dog and then it just got kind of ridiculous. And finally I was like, just. You can have snookers.

[Monica Padman]

Ah, that was probably hard. I have a friend who is going through that too. It's really.

[Dax Shepard]

A boyfriend?

[Monica Padman]

No, no, a girlfriend. A girlfriend. A girlfriend of mine. Yeah. But it's tough. It's.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

She's gay.

[Dax Shepard]

No, she was straight. She was my girlfriend.

[Monica Padman]

No, my friend is gay.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

So don't worry.

[Dax Shepard]

I was hoping you would. I would figure out what your. What you want to know about the X. I know. Well, what do you want to know about an ex?

[Monica Padman]

I don't know. We have to practice.

[Dax Shepard]

I think you want to know what they look like physically, don't you? No, I actually don't.

[Monica Padman]

I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you sure? Well, you don't want to find out if they were Indian.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, cuz I know you got a

[Dax Shepard]

whole thing about that.

[Monica Padman]

No, I don't want. If he. Okay, do it again. You might need to.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, okay. Yeah. So anyways, we had booked this trip and, like, we talked about going on it together, but I was like, I don't want to be in Bombay with my ex. So I was like, you can just take someone else.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I transferred my ticket.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Oh, my God. First of all, that would not to me. I'm not like, oh, so she was Indian just because you were going there?

[Dax Shepard]

She trying to t tempt you in that direction?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, have you. I don't even. I wouldn't even ask.

[Dax Shepard]

I would say.

[Monica Padman]

I would say.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you been to India?

[Lena Waithe]

How long have you.

[Monica Padman]

How long were you guys together?

[Dax Shepard]

You don't think. You go, have you been to India before?

[Monica Padman]

I mean, you don't care.

[Dax Shepard]

You just want to know about the girl now.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I almost was about to say, oh, my gosh. I went to India last year on this kind of random, crazy trip, and it was serious. It was so. It was so cool because I've only been one time before when I was little, and it was really cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, are you Indian?

[Monica Padman]

I am. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I thought you were Lebanese.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no, no, no, I'm not. Well, I mean, I. I was born in Georgia and raised there, but my parents are Indian.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, cool.

[Monica Padman]

How long were you with your ex? Or how long were you with her?

[Dax Shepard]

Five years.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. From. From 46 to 51.

[Monica Padman]

What happened? Do you mind me asking? Sorry if that's too private.

[Lena Waithe]

God.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I mean, what happened? Like, a million things happened.

[Monica Padman]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. As happens in a relationship.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's hard.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, I could list things and it'd probably just be me blaming her, but I'm sure I half the reason that, if not more. Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That's evolved of you.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

What are you gonna order?

[Dax Shepard]

She's. Oh, you're off of it. You know, the old, she young. Is she Indian?

[Monica Padman]

I'm not asking that.

[Dax Shepard]

I never asked.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. I. I was on a date once where it came up, but I didn't ask. He brought it up.

[Dax Shepard]

What did he say?

[Monica Padman]

He said, like, I'M crazy Indian and her family and something about an Indian princess. And I was like, I hate this. I absolutely hate this.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

If anyone says Indian princess princess to me, you're not for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what is the stereotype exactly?

[Monica Padman]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. Of the Jewish American princess. That's a. That's a stereotype.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Jap. It offends both people. Two groups of people at once. It's a twofer.

[Monica Padman]

Even if someone said jap to me, I'd be like, I wish you didn't say that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, sure.

[Monica Padman]

You know, someone I. I love said it recently and I was like, were

[Dax Shepard]

they referring to a Jewish American princess or a Japanese person?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, a Jewish.

[Dax Shepard]

You didn't even get that part.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah, I forgot.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, gosh. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Jewish. I thought you were saying it offends princesses and Jewish.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I don't care about offending princesses. They're. They're tiny.

[Monica Padman]

Your wife is a princess.

[Dax Shepard]

Not a real one.

[Monica Padman]

She is the closest we got. She played a.

[Dax Shepard]

There's actual princesses.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah, I forgot.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, well, I don't want to offend them either, but I can live with that.

[Dax Shepard]

Like picking the group. Talk about punching up or down royalty.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Punching up or royalty.

[Monica Padman]

I'm with. It's more the Jewish part. I didn't love when. When they said it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, well, I'm from a very Jewish area of Michigan.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

So that term was used a lot.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And quite often by Jewish people.

[Monica Padman]

Right. Well, they're allowed, but this person wasn't Jewish. Anyway. Okay, if you said. If you said it to me on a date, say it somehow.

[Dax Shepard]

Jap.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, are you Jewish?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Hard to be Jewish right now.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my gosh. I know. I. I feel. I feel like the world is nuts.

[Dax Shepard]

By the way, the first death, if the first date has somehow strayed into Palestine, Israel, it's a bad going.

[Monica Padman]

The bathroom.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, go. Oh, my God. I'm going to. I got to go. I got you heard of talking. I'm going to go Tonka all over the floor in the bathroom.

[Monica Padman]

I want to go to my.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I prefer doing that than having this conversation.

[Monica Padman]

Well, yeah, no, I know, I know. But, you know, I do get deep and I. I do worry sometimes that, like, I get us to a place we're not supposed to go too soon.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, well, that can be fun.

[Monica Padman]

I know. But then it's like, not fun because then. Yeah, we're talking about. I don't think what I know so far, which Oh, I guess I should tell people I'm going on a date. That should be clear.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

From what I know so far, I just don't. I think he's very chill.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I don't think we're going to about talk. Talk about global news, global politics.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's good. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. What if he's super into crypto and he wants to tell you about crypto the whole time? That's a hard one. Even if everything else was like a thumbs up.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think I was. Would say.

[Dax Shepard]

What would you say?

[Monica Padman]

I'd say I go.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you heard of belizeum? Oh, it's a one to one currency. It's so strong and promising. Oh, I haven't heard for $13 a coin and it's already up to 13.90.

[Monica Padman]

That's cool. Do you. How do you know Ben McKenzie? Have you ever heard of Ben McKenzie? He was from the OC but he's also.

[Dax Shepard]

I never. I never saw those. See, but I heard it was really.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I actually also didn't watch it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

But he was a big actor on. On that show and he's also an expert in crypto and he was just on.

[Dax Shepard]

What's he. What's he. What's his holdings? Which ones is he into?

[Monica Padman]

Well, he's actually pretty critical of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. Oh, he's a hater. Well, he's just mad he didn't get in when bitcoin was. Maybe he's just jealous.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

But I do have a podcast.

[Monica Padman]

I do. I do do. Yeah, I do.

[Lena Waithe]

Are you.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you Lebanese?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no, I'm not. I'm not. I. Yeah. Do you think only Lebanese people have podcasts? That's. That's an interesting leap. Hey, I gotta go Tonka.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's what you parked in a lot called Tonka or something.

[Monica Padman]

That's when you poop in your car.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, so. Oh, you're going outside to poop in your car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I come?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, you're. You're.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that could salvage the whole. Yeah, that sounds.

[Monica Padman]

I got perked up.

[Dax Shepard]

That's wrecking.

[Lena Waithe]

I come.

[Monica Padman]

It would probably be a crypto guy that was into it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So it all makes sense, you know, Trade offs. Yeah. Everyone. No one's perfect.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not going to get it all.

[Monica Padman]

No one's perfect.

[Dax Shepard]

He's got to. You got to get the right things. Anywho, I mean, full honesty.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, Rob, he. He might be here.

[Dax Shepard]

Lucas or the breast Milk guy.

[Monica Padman]

Breast milk guy.

[Dax Shepard]

Colostrum man.

[Monica Padman]

Rob, is Colostomy going to pick up another drink for us using his id? It's not alcohol.

[Dax Shepard]

Full honesty.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm on a date.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And the girl goes, if you excuse me, I have got to go shit in my car. Dude, I would be so into that. No, I would. I would be like, wow, who's this person?

[Monica Padman]

You would.

[Dax Shepard]

No one. I mean. Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, listen. You would be like, who is this person?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I'm sure you'd be intrigued.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But you would not on a fir. You would be like, she's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no, I would have some follow up questions. Okay, so tell me.

[Monica Padman]

Oh. Oh, my God. I'll be right back.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Where are you going?

[Monica Padman]

Waiting. I have to. God, I, I have to go. Tonka.

[Dax Shepard]

What's, what's Tonka?

[Monica Padman]

When you poop in your car. Okay. And I have to go right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. You have to poop in your car, right?

[Monica Padman]

I do. I do.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, hold on.

[Monica Padman]

Do you.

[Lena Waithe]

Waiting.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I don't mind waiting, but can I just ask you. I know, I can see it's pressure.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

It's.

[Dax Shepard]

Why, why go in your car and not the bathroom here?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I'm just like so uncomfortable. I, I'm really uncomfortable pooping in front of other people.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, sure. That's.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, people just have like a privacy thing and I know I'm not going to make it home.

[Dax Shepard]

How often do you do this? Every time you got to go to a normal bathroom.

[Monica Padman]

It's only happened once. It almost happened again. And I can tell it's going to happen right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I'll. How about I come out and I'll just hang by the. Make sure no one bothers you. No, because you don't want anyone, like, knocking on your window or if I see a dude peeping, I'll be like, bro, give her some privacy.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, that's really, really nice, but the whole.

[Dax Shepard]

And I can hold your bag too.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, you don't have a. It's. There's no bag. You just like, poop on this.

[Dax Shepard]

But that bag next to your feet. Do you want me to hold that while you're.

[Monica Padman]

That's really kind. I, I. The whole.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me be lookout for you. This will be fun.

[Monica Padman]

No, the whole issue is privacy.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. And I'm going to look the other way, though.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. You're being, you're being a little pushy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you think I'm a weirdo now or. I tell you something, you're about to go Shit in your car. So why don't you fucking back off the judgments, tootsie. Now let's go grab your bag. This is a great day, dude. It's so memorable. And he would be like, cut to the three years later, I can see him with a microphone in his hand and his tuxedo on, and I'll go. I knew there was something special about Monica when on our first date, she looked at me and said, if you'll excuse me, I have to, Tonka. And for those of you who don't know Grandma Jane, Grandpa Bill, Tonka is when a woman uses her car to

[Monica Padman]

defecate it as a toilet.

[Dax Shepard]

And I thought, I should get out of here and run. No, I'm gonna provide lookout services. And I'm so glad I did.

[Monica Padman]

Aww. People's crying.

[Dax Shepard]

People would cry.

[Monica Padman]

They would also throw up at the

[Dax Shepard]

people at your wedding. Fuck. I hope this all goes down, man. This sounds like a great.

[Monica Padman]

Can you please knock on wood? You better not hope that on my date. I have to. Tonka. That is literally worst case scenario.

[Dax Shepard]

Unless he loves it. And then you guys have fast forwarded to like such a level of intimacy and trust and connection.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, if he has a Tonka.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting. Not me. I don't want.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I don't want to be the girl who's in her car all the time. Okay, it happened one time.

[Dax Shepard]

Not all the time. No one wants to be there.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but you're the one. You're kind of manifesting it for me. You wanted me to put a bag in my car.

[Dax Shepard]

Trash bag.

[Lena Waithe]

Why not?

[Dax Shepard]

You just act like that's where you put your trash.

[Monica Padman]

That's manifesting. That's manifest destiny.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you know if you're driving together, you're meeting there. Okay, that's supposed to be the safe thing to do.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know if it's safe or not, but one time I was on a date where the man picked me up the mail. And at first I was like, oh, I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And as soon as he picked me up, I hated it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Monica Padman]

I was like, I really don't like being trapped in the car. I don't. Now I'm aware of how he's driving.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Me precious cargo.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And at one point he was just staring and I didn't. Then I was like, you need to look at the road. I didn't like any of it. So. So we're just gonna meet there.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. What though? How do we handle a nighttime.

[Monica Padman]

He's not. We're not doing his first date, but

[Dax Shepard]

you guys can kiss. If he drives you home, then he's gotta get out and, like, open your door and clean out the tonka from your backseat, put it in your trash can, and then he might wanna give you a kiss goodnight before you go inside.

[Monica Padman]

If he wants to kiss me after I've tonka'd.

[Dax Shepard]

What?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. What a stud.

[Monica Padman]

Well, a stud and kink. He's kinky. That's pretty cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we like pretty cool. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

All right. Anyway, some facts.

[Dax Shepard]

That's just a fact.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Okay. She talks about half man the show, and you've since watched it.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm glad you're bringing this up.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

She was dead, right.

[Monica Padman]

She loved it.

[Dax Shepard]

I love it. And now I even see what she was saying. Because at the time, remember, I think I said, like, yeah, you and I watched things differently. Like, you're recognizing when someone's being represented. Like, that's important to you and you'll always notice it. But anyone would notice it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, the show is. Is that type of show.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Where it is. It's exploring some weird shit that goes down in most boyhoods that I'm aware of.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Just weird. Boys are so fucked. I don't.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think girls know how weird boys are. Little boys, there's like a whole window where they're so bizarre. I cannot tell you how many. These boys were constantly trying to show me their penises. And they wanted a sword fight and stuff. And, like, they just don't. They have these penises and they don't know what they're doing.

[Monica Padman]

They don't know what to do.

[Dax Shepard]

They are getting. They want to get them out.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Smack them around. I was just like, I don't. I'm not into all this sword fighting in a hunt.

[Monica Padman]

You weren't?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, because you were already.

[Dax Shepard]

I think because I had already been molested. Maybe it was like I didn't like the whole thing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when. When we were in, like, hunting and gathering and we were naked all the time, I bet they were playing with them. It was like. It was just normal.

[Dax Shepard]

This is when I read this really interesting article and it was about how cultural everything is to the degree of molesting.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Here. It means one thing. It's always inappropriate and it's always some kind of, like, deviant sexual behavior. Whereas they were paralleling it with this group, this hunting, gathering group that, like, when they see little kids, they juggle their balls.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

As a greeting.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

The dudes aren't perverts. There's nothing sexual going on. Yeah, they. They do the same activity that here we would. It would be trauma.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's just so interesting that how the power of.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's all about, does it induce shame or not? And in that culture, it doesn't because everyone is getting greeted by getting their balls fondled.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but that is weird, though, because innately, though, it is sexual because that is also a way to get aroused.

[Dax Shepard]

But again, because the. The. The culture so strong and the context is so strong. It's not. They don't get aroused. It's not a sexual activity. I didn't grow up there, so I have my thing.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyways, I'm off on a long trajectory here. I can't remember what. We left base, but Half man is so, so good.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

With similar tones being explored as DTF St. Louis. Like, that relationship between Bateman and Harboro was so intimate.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It was male friendly.

[Dax Shepard]

Constantly hugging and stretching each other, breathing on each other. It's just like this level of intimacy that certainly I didn't see on TV growing up.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And by the time I did see it on TV growing up, it was explicitly sexual between two homosexuals.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

This is this weird zone.

[Monica Padman]

I know of this.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Even though you weren't. It wasn't represented. You still did it with Aaron.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So, like, Aaron and I had a very, very intimate, very physically touchy friendship.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But no penis business. There were no places coming out but you snuggled. Yeah, but nothing. There was no weird sexual component. I'm talking about the behavior that had all. It was like this weird sexual.

[Monica Padman]

Well, Bateman and David Harbour didn't have any sexual.

[Dax Shepard]

They didn't. But it was confusing. And there were times where it seemed they were both confused by the intimacy.

[Monica Padman]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And then he's even gonna hook up with a dude or he's open to. If he can give a guy an erection, he'll like that just because he'll be desired.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So just getting into all this fun gray area. So Nate and I loved that show. Of course. As you did you.

[Monica Padman]

I loved it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But we were talking about it at lunch and he goes, dude, the other show. That's even more extreme than that that I been watching. I want you to catch up so we can start watching together. Is Half Man. So I did. And then the last Friday when we had the day off, Nate and I went to lunch and then we came and got in the theater room and Watched two episodes back to back, and it. Was it fun, Me, like, being in my 20s or something? We were just watching TV.

[Monica Padman]

That's really fun. Okay, quick, quickly. Is Adam the one. Adam Mosseri, the one on Instagram with glasses who sends updates? I mean, I think so.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. He has glasses.

[Dax Shepard]

That's definitely what she's talking about. He makes tons of posts directly to camera, letting users know of new features.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Regularly post direct updates about the platform. He's so fun.

[Dax Shepard]

He's so cute.

[Monica Padman]

He said we were his favorite food.

[Dax Shepard]

He's so smart, too.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Who is the model with the Gap tooth name? Lauren. Lauren Hutton, iconic model. Something came up, and you said, everything worth having. Like, everything worth having what? Yeah, basically. And it reminded me that in high school, Cali's mom got her this little compass necklace. It was from Kohl's, and on the back, it said, there are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay, good.

[Monica Padman]

And I loved that. And then they bought me the necklace because I loved it so much.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's nice.

[Monica Padman]

And I love that saying.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a dude in AA who has a similar saying that he says all the time. Almost every Sherry says it, and I love it every single time, which is I found out that the shortcut is the quickest way to the back of the line.

[Monica Padman]

I like that. Similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Shortcuts. The quickest way to the back of the line. Although it'd be quicker to just go to the back of the line before you do the shortcut. So it's not. It doesn't hold up.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, because, like, if you're. If you're cutting the line, which is the shortcut, you're not at the back.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, the point is the shortcuts never work, and you always have to go back and start the way.

[Monica Padman]

I understand the point.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Yeah, we'll stick with yours.

[Monica Padman]

I like mine.

[Dax Shepard]

What was yours?

[Monica Padman]

There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I love it. Cole's cash.

[Dax Shepard]

Cole's cash, man.

[Monica Padman]

Callie also got a tattoo of a compass. That was her first tattoo. She got a compass on her ankle. It was in college. She has since gotten it removed.

[Dax Shepard]

She has.

[Monica Padman]

She didn't like the way it looked in pictures when she was, like, in heels and stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Compass is a very popular tattoo.

[Lena Waithe]

Is it?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know anyone else with one. I mean, I don't know a lot of people with tattoos other than you.

[Dax Shepard]

Not your scene.

[Monica Padman]

And her. She and Anna. Okay. I know a lot of people Charlie, Rob, Natalie. Natalie. Everyone has tattoos, actually. Erica. Wow. Yeah. Charlie.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Matt.

[Monica Padman]

Whoa.

[Dax Shepard]

At least half Mike Nichols.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, at least half, my friends. That's probably right. Mike Nichols says about conversation. A conversation falls into three categories. A negotiation, a seduction or a fight.

[Dax Shepard]

A negotiation, a seduction or a fight. This is in. This is in theatrical realm, right.

[Monica Padman]

This isn't every scene or. Or conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

It says. Or conversation falls in.

[Dax Shepard]

Has to be one of those three things.

[Monica Padman]

Fight, a seduction.

[Dax Shepard]

But life doesn't have to. A lot of conversations doesn't have to.

[Monica Padman]

But I think he's kind of saying, like, it is like he's representing life and like, that is what happens in lifetime life as we know it.

[Dax Shepard]

Network.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Okay. The catchphrase from her at&t commercial. Rob said it in the interview. Just okay. Is not okay. She think thinks there's another. That's what I'm seeing too.

[Lena Waithe]

I think I found another one too.

[Dax Shepard]

After. Let me your way right away.

[Lena Waithe]

More for your thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Spots. I think was her.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, get more for your things.

[Lena Waithe]

Let me see. What the.

[Monica Padman]

That's not a good phrase.

[Dax Shepard]

That's abstract.

[Monica Padman]

That's not a good phrase. If AT&T wants to hire me, I will say the shortcut line.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Only that line.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. I'll say anything you want. @&t. Actually, I will too. Not to out compete you, but yeah.

[Monica Padman]

God. God.

[Dax Shepard]

You could hire. You could hire Monica. You should know she's only going to say one sentence.

[Monica Padman]

They should hire me because a long time ago, I think. Have I done an AT&T commercial?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sure you.

[Monica Padman]

I maybe have. But I do know one of the commercials I Lost was an AT&T commercial. And it was down to me and this. My neck nemesis. And she was my nemesis. I lost. I lost a couple roles to this girl.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

She wasn't Indian or Lebanese.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you end up knowing her? I like your chat with her at auditions. Hey, you beat me out. I bet you beat her out a few times too.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe I forget her name, but she was like, up and she was, like, becoming a thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Huh?

[Monica Padman]

And I forget her name, but she beat me out for this AT&T, I think, like, campaign.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

So when I was upset and I knew the directors well, I had worked with them a couple times, really loved them, and so that was upsetting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that was a.

[Monica Padman]

That was a hard one.

[Dax Shepard]

You lost a couple hundred grand, probably. Fuck.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, so they should make up for that oh, AT&T shirt. They should hire me now as a voiceover. And like, now you're getting bigger bang for your buck.

[Dax Shepard]

I only say one thing, but you're getting a bigger bang for your buck.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Trade offs.

[Monica Padman]

I have a voice for radio and AT&T commercials. That's what they say.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what they say.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You have a face for AT&T.

[Monica Padman]

I have a face for radio. Okay. I have a face for radio and a voice for AT&T commercials. That's what they say.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what they always say.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. All right. Well, that is all.

[Dax Shepard]

Those were the facts.

[Monica Padman]

That is all.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I love Lena.

[Monica Padman]

Me too. Great.

[Dax Shepard]

I love her.

[Monica Padman]

Great ep. Love her.

[Dax Shepard]

She's so lovable.

[Monica Padman]

She is. She's very smart and wise.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And interesting and accomplished. And accomplished. She's good chatter. She's good chatter.

[Dax Shepard]

All right. Love you.

[Monica Padman]

I love you.