Leslie John (on the power of oversharing)

Summary

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Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Guest: Dr. Leslie John

Episode: "The Power of Oversharing"

Release Date: June 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

Dax Shepard and Monica Padman sit down with Dr. Leslie John, behavioral scientist and Harvard Business School professor, to explore the science and social dynamics of oversharing. The discussion focuses on why people reveal sensitive information, the psychological effects of secrecy, parasocial relationships (connections with people we don’t actually know), and how oversharing can foster connection and influence. Leslie shares insights from her research and her new book, "Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing," while the trio reflect on their personal experiences, academic findings, and the complexities of vulnerability in the digital age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Leslie John’s Background & Early Influences

[03:33–08:25]

• Leslie recounts her upbringing in Waterloo, Canada, her experience in professional ballet ("ballet jail"), and how an early obsession with quirky decision-making in her family led her to behavioral science.
• Leslie highlights how formative experiences, like enduring pain in dance, shaped her views on suffering, growth, and resilience.
• Notable Quote:

  “All research is me-search. Really.” – Leslie John [08:25]

2. Secrecy, Decision-Making, and the Science of Oversharing

[10:55–16:33]

• Leslie describes her early academic work on online secrecy and privacy, including a study where people disclosed more sensitive information on a "crazy, unprofessional" website ("How Bad Are You?") [13:12].
• Her findings showed people are more likely to reveal sensitive info in environments perceived as humorous or nonjudgmental.
• She discusses rethinking the narrative that "we’re bad at privacy" and recognizing that sharing can bring joy, connection, and influence.
• Notable Quote:

  “When I make people feel comfortable...they really want to reveal.” – Leslie John [16:04]

3. Why Do We Keep Secrets?

[16:41–19:35]

• Most people carry an average of 13 secrets (with wide variance) [17:00].
• Keeping secrets is cognitively taxing, hampers intelligence/problem-solving, and can cause long-term rumination.
• Releasing secrets often feels much less catastrophic than anticipated.
• Dax shares the AA principle of amends, balancing personal unburdening against risk of harm to others [18:48].

4. The Upsides and Boundaries of Oversharing

[19:35–26:29]

• Leslie reflects on oversharing personal stories, like “career suicide” moments, which led to deeper connections and mentorship.
• The line between oversharing and appropriate sharing is context-dependent, especially online vs. offline.
• Notable Quote:

  “If you never feel like you’ve crossed the line, then you’re not doing it enough.” – Leslie John [24:00]

• The group discusses the nuanced ethics of sharing stories that also belong to others (e.g., memoirs, family disclosures) [25:00].
• Monica distinguishes between healthy self-disclosure and “spilling everyone’s tea” [25:06].

5. Risks of Not Revealing vs. Risks of Revealing

[33:46–35:11]

• People instinctively hyper-focus on the possible negative consequences of sharing, often failing to consider the risks and costs of staying silent.
• Research shows we probably should share a bit more than we do, but discernment is crucial.
• Notable Quote:

  “We fixate on the risks of revealing. But if we zoom out, we make different decisions.” – Leslie John [34:20]

6. Vulnerability, Status, and Influence

[35:11–36:37]

• Vulnerability from high-status individuals (like CEOs or celebrities) is especially powerful, building trust and reducing stigma (e.g., Angelina Jolie’s op-ed).
• Leaders rarely disclose weaknesses, but when they do—without TMI—it motivates and connects teams [36:37].

7. How to Respond to Someone’s Vulnerability

[37:04–38:16]

• The most helpful response is not fixing but validating (“I hear you. That must be hard.”).
• Neuroscience supports that validation soothes emotional brain regions—even if it feels formulaic.

8. Why is Oversharing So Endearing?

[38:16–40:38]

• Dax recounts how disclosing shameful experiences on the podcast (relapse, infidelity, being molested) never resulted in backlash but instead built loyal audiences and trust.
• Leslie connects this to evolutionary roots: Bravery and risk-taking signal trustworthiness and are admired.
• Notable Quote:

  “We are attracted to bravery... There’s a level of trust you bestow onto me by telling me your secret.” – Dax Shepard [40:00]

9. Parasocial Relationships & The Illusion of Reciprocity

[42:40–47:03]

• Parasocial relationships arise from asymmetrical intimacy—people feel deeply connected to personalities who don’t know them.
• The brain’s default assumption is “if I know you, you know me,” a shortcut forged before media age [44:00].
• Monica and Dax describe their own experiences: Monica becomes obsessed with two women’s podcasts, while Dax admits a one-sided friendship with David Sedaris.
• Meeting parasocial figures rarely matches the fantasy (“The illusion might shatter”) [46:53].
• Notable Quote:

  “It’s so weird to have experienced both sides of the parasocial relationship.” – Monica Padman [46:09]

10. The Science of Connection and Self-Disclosure

[55:11–58:06]

• Sharing “about yourself” lights up the brain’s pleasure centers; people will literally pay for the chance to self-disclose.
• Follow-up questions are powerful; they show attention and give people the joy of sharing more [57:02].
• Leslie’s humorous dating anecdote: her strategy of asking questions made some men (wrongly) feel loved [57:42].

11. Beauty, Familiarity & the Power of Face Symmetry

[58:49–66:53]

• Symmetrical, beautiful faces are subconsciously processed as “familiar,” amplifying feelings of connection to celebrities.
• The group debates the cultural push to redefine beauty; Leslie highlights that the diversity of taste is real, but physiological cues still influence social biases.
• Notable Quote:

  “They have a different experience on planet Earth that’s worth us knowing about.” – Dax Shepard [66:12]

12. Authenticity: Owning Your Desires

[67:00–68:09]

• Leslie shares her personal revelation about valuing physical attraction in relationships and the struggle to own it honestly.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “All research is me-search. Really.” – Leslie John [08:25]
• “If you never feel like you’ve crossed the line, then you’re not doing it enough.” – Leslie John [24:00]
• “We fixate on the risks of revealing... But if we zoom out, we make different ones.” – Leslie John [34:20]
• “We are attracted to bravery. There’s a level of trust you bestow onto me by telling me your secret.” – Dax Shepard [40:00]
• “Our brains haven’t adapted to parasocial relationships... If I know a lot about them, they must know a lot about me.” – Leslie John [43:28]
• “The times when you actually need to sell and persuade are very few... The way to sell is to not be.” – Leslie John [36:40]
• “Validation is just saying, I hear you. That must be so hard. That guy sounds like a real dick. Just saying less is more.” – Leslie John [37:04]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Guest Introduction and Early Background: [03:33–09:22]
• Science of Secrets and Oversharing: [10:55–16:33]
• Why We Keep and Reveal Secrets: [16:41–19:35]
• Transition to Embracing Oversharing: [19:35–21:51]
• Navigating the Boundaries of TMI: [24:00–27:54]
• Parasocial Relationships Deep Dive: [42:40–47:03]
• Science of Self-Disclosure and Connection: [55:11–58:06]
• Beauty, Familiarity, and Influence: [58:49–66:53]

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Episode Tone and Style

The episode is a mix of humorous reflection, candid personal storytelling, and clear presentation of behavioral science findings. The conversation feels open, validating, and self-deprecating, with Dax and Monica modeling the very vulnerability Leslie studies. The tone is curious and empathetic, treating both the science and its human implications with warmth.

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Memorable Moments

• Leslie’s tale of oversharing her most embarrassing story (peeing herself on stage) and how it led to career-transforming mentorship [21:55–23:52].
• The “How Bad Are You?” privacy study and its hilarious setup contrasting Comic Sans/devil graphics versus a professional site [13:12–14:49].
• Real-life examples of how status (like Angelina Jolie or CEOs) amplifies the impact of self-disclosure [35:20–36:37].
• Parasocial relationship anecdotes: Dax’s “love” for David Sedaris and Monica’s podcast obsession [49:46–51:51].
• The ‘trapped in the TV’ effect and children trying to free Ms. Francis from the screen [54:22–54:57].

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Oversharing can be a powerful tool for connection, leadership, and reducing loneliness—but context and consent matter.
• Carry fewer secrets when possible; the burden is more cognitive and emotional than most realize.
• Parasocial relationships are real (in terms of feelings), even if asymmetrical—media personalities can play important social roles for listeners/fans.
• Genuine vulnerability is admired because it signals trust and courage, not weakness.
• Personal and professional boundaries are key: owning your truth, but not sharing others’ stories without permission.
• Validation beats advice when responding to others’ vulnerable disclosures.

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Further Reading & Listening

• Leslie John’s book: "Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing"
• Arthur Aron’s 36 Questions Study (on building intimacy)
• Research on parasocial relationships and the psychology of self-disclosure

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This summary captures the essential insights, memorable exchanges, and practical wisdom from the conversation—perfect for anyone wishing to apply the science of oversharing to their own life or relationships.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Mouse. Today we have Leslie John on she is a behavioral scientist and a professor at Harvard Business School. And we get to get into parasocial relationships on this one. She has a great book out called Revealing the Underrated Power of Oversharing. And this is an incredibly interesting conversation about parasocial relationships.

[B]

Parasocial relationships, we get into secrets. Like the science of secrets. There's a lot of fun stuff in here.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/dax for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com Dax for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com Dax let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of. And it turns out it's more common than you'd think. Peyronie's disease, or PD for short. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis. This can cause a curve with a bump during an erection and for some men lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health. It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lowered self esteem, and even withdrawal from sexual activity and physical intimacy. Because of this, some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about pd. The actual cause of PD isn't always known. In some cases, it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or other physical activity. The good news is PD is treatable. If you notice a curve with a bump, a trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. To learn more about Peyronie's disease, visit talkaboutpd.com he's an object expert. He's an object expert. He's an observer. Welcome. That's okay. I don't care.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I see. Okay, thank you.

[A]

Where did you stay?

[C]

I stayed there for the Montrose in West Hollywood. It's like a little sweet.

[B]

It's not so. Like a little boutique. Yeah.

[A]

What, you walk from West Hollywood here?

[C]

But. But I do do that.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

I am a bit of a crazy person, but yeah. The guy at the front desk was telling me that that's where America's Next Top Model, the production team, and then I said, have you watched the Netflix?

[B]

Oh, boy.

[C]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

I haven't watched it.

[C]

So many thoughts about that.

[B]

Well, I only watched some and I want to continue. I mean, then I forgot to continue, but I've heard about all the drama.

[A]

Okay, so then where did you walk from if not your hotel?

[C]

I just walked from down the little street. I went to this little hipster. I'm sure that's not the right word these days.

[B]

Yeah, why not? We'll take it Easter.

[A]

Like, I'm much older than you. I'm sure you're more dialed in and you're interfacing with college students.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, true. Which I'm not.

[A]

Yeah. Do you think they're keeping you young or making you feel old or both?

[C]

Yeah, I think both.

[A]

Probably when you're around people your age, you're like, I feel a little younger than them. And then when you're around them, you're like, I feel older than I am.

[C]

Yeah. But I mostly teach executives now, so it's a different beast. I like it better because my go to is positive parenting with them.

[A]

Okay. With the execs.

[C]

And they love it.

[B]

Like reinforcement. Yeah.

[C]

Like, it's amazing how these tiny things can make such a huge difference, especially when there's strong gender, age norms and all that. Like when I walk in to a bunch of executives. They're like.

[B]

They have ideas.

[C]

Where's the professor?

[A]

Yeah, right, Right, right, right, right.

[C]

And so I always feel like we have to kind of earn it. Whereas if you're an old white dude, you're like, august.

[A]

If you arrived in a Bentley and you're old and white.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

These guys got to figure it out. Let's hear what he's got to say. But if you fucking walk and you're abroad from Canada, good luck.

[C]

Exactly. And I biked to school. I did cave and get an E bike recently. I feel a little guilty about it, but, oh, my God, it's amazing.

[A]

What fun can you do?

[B]

Why do you feel guilty? That's good.

[C]

Well, it's my Catholic upbringing.

[B]

Because you spent money on it.

[C]

Yeah. And making myself feel comfortable should not be good. I've changed a lot. Don't get me wrong.

[A]

I think that's attribution error. Ah.

[C]

How so?

[A]

That's the ballerina.

[C]

You're right. It's the ballet that had such a more profound.

[A]

Hourly, you're experiencing, like.

[C]

It's like we're in a pain.

[A]

Social relationship. Pain equals growth.

[C]

Often. Yeah.

[B]

Pain is progress.

[A]

Or minimally. Even if it's not pain, it's discomfort. And I don't want to do this, but if I do this thing, I will experience some positive growth.

[C]

Yeah. There's something to be said for it. Like, you do appreciate joy more when you have suffered, but I wouldn't say capital S suffer. I mean, like, a little bit of down and the peaks are higher.

[A]

Okay. Where in Canada are you from originally?

[C]

I am from Waterloo.

[A]

Okay. You went to Waterloo College. That's in Ontario.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What age do you quit ballet?

[C]

21.

[A]

And how would you rate the overall journey?

[C]

I mean, it's an incredibly privileged thing to do to go to train professionally, sixth grade and live in boarding school.

[A]

You went to Germany. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. It's just an incredible experience. And I learned so much. Like, I think I'm generally naturally. I don't know. My parents are really hardworking. Like, I'm a hardworking person. But it really nurtured that to a good and bad degree. And just the work ethic and attention to detail, like, you just be in the mirror like swan hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just. Again. And that's bad. This now I can't do it anymore. And just the experience of being on stage. Right. Like, the performance, that is the flow of moving to the music with your body and performing it. And I can't even use words for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I Actually, recently, a month ago, met up with some of my old ballet friends. We hadn't seen each other. It had been 30 years since we'd seen each other. We hadn't seen each other since. Ballet jail, we call it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

The shared trauma, lowercase T. Grand scheme of things, it's not that bad. But, you know, we talked about how weird it is that, for example, we're like, I don't know, 13 years old and our feet are bleeding before class. But the thought of even telling the instructor that your feet are bleeding would be. Be, like, off limits. We were children, and I have little boys now. I'm like, can you imagine your little children dancing with bleeding feet and pretending it's just wild.

[A]

It's pretty wild.

[C]

It's pretty wild. And the brutality of, like, not physically, but, like, you can say brutality.

[A]

It's a brutal story. It's objectively a wild niche experience on planet Earth for a young person to go through historically and evolutionarily. These are just objective truths. Okay, so when you found your way to college into psychology and then ultimately to behavioral science, what was driving that? Was it your Stockholm syndrome of this hobby of yours? And you're like, I gotta unravel what happened.

[C]

I mean, all research is me. Search. Really?

[A]

I like that term. We haven't heard that.

[C]

Yeah, I loved, still love dancing, moving ballet. My shins were a disaster and fractured all the time. And I remember, for me, this moment where I was at some surgeon and they're like, oh, we'll just shave your bones down. I was like, 15 years old. They're like, we're gonna just shave your bones down. And it's an experimental procedure that works for other dancers. And that's that moment when I was like, okay, I'm out. It's one of those things where you kind of know that the writing's on the wall, it's not working. And you almost want someone to be like. You want, like, a sign so you don't have to make the decision yourself in a way.

[A]

Right. Kind of hope your shins intervene.

[C]

Yeah. Which is weird. You, like, hope for the worst in a way. Sometimes people are weird. Including myself. So then I went to. And it was awesome college, as they say here. And I've always been fascinated with decision making, and I think I come from a long line of very indecisive people.

[A]

Indecisive?

[C]

Indecisive, yes. Like quirky, weird decision making. So, for example, on a family ski trip, my mother and father would say, it's a flat rate 40 bucks or whatever it was back then. We have to ski until we get the price of a run down to $2.

[A]

Oh, price per use. They're working on the.

[C]

So it's like completely irration because it's sunk, but so motivating.

[A]

So you need 20 runs.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is a lot of runs.

[C]

A lot of runs.

[A]

And if there's a lot of lines at the chairlift.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

But was this out of frugality or like, gamifying?

[C]

So this is a great question. This is a great question. I think it's out of irrational frugality.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Pennywise and pound for wood.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another would be. We'd be grocery shopping with my mom and there'd be coconut milk. Something that you don't need a lot of. Usually I do love coconut milk, but it would be on sale limit, 10o. And then we'd come home with 10. Right. That's ironic that a limit would make you buy more. It really fascinated me, these quirky things

[A]

that seemed a little irrational.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I didn't have that vocab then, but odd things that made me.

[A]

Hmm.

[C]

That's interesting. So then I went and I got a PhD in decision making. It's actually something like behavioral decision research.

[A]

Yeah. It sounded like bullshit when I was.

[B]

No, I love that.

[A]

What do you want to call this?

[C]

I know.

[B]

PhD.

[C]

I know. It's funny. As grad students, we're like, can we call it, like, psychology, Economics? Economics. It's high status. But no, we have this super weirdo. So I don't know what I am to this day.

[A]

And Carnegie Mellon, which we've had a bunch of Carnegie Mellon folks on, you start at Harvard in 11, you get promoted in 16 to associate professor, and then 2021, you become tenured. Right. So you've had this 15 year arc there in the first 10 years of research I want to talk about, because it was focused, if I'm correct, on secrecy and the decisions made private and when and when not those are shared publicly. So let's talk first about that.

[B]

That's fascinating.

[A]

What brings you to secrecy?

[C]

So at that time, I remember when I was starting, I remember looking over at someone's computer. We're in the lab, and they had this Facebook wall. I'm like, what the heck is that? I don't understand. It's a wall you can post. Like, it just seemed very foreign to me. I just became fascinated with why are people doing this posting and stuff? And it feels rewarding and I try to understand it and Then it's interesting because this is where you see the area you're in. You're shoehorned into a certain perspect, really realizing it. So the perspective of that field is very, very narrow. In thinking about decision errors like points of irrationality, where do we stray from what a standard economist would do? Which by the way, why is standard economics the standard? Right. Like if it was, we'd all be a holes. I don't want us to all be. Standard economics tells us a lot.

[A]

We shan't all act rationally. There's a lot more to life than rationality.

[C]

The focus there was like kind of on documenting errors we make largely online with sharing information. One of my favorite studies was this study where we ask people super sensitive questions. It's like a theme.

[A]

Well, if secrecy's the topic.

[B]

Oh, I want to take the quiz.

[A]

I want to.

[C]

I've got quizzes galore for you, baby. Yay. Okay, so we were brainstorming these questions. My PhD advisor is Freud's great grandson.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So that explains a lot of the types of items he would come up with.

[A]

They were kind of still consistent with repression and sexuality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And I'm a fresh pimply faced, 23 year old grad student. The design of the study was let's ask people outrageous questions in the name of science and just vary what the interface looked like. Have it look like super unprofessional versus professional and see whether people ironically reveal more on the unprofessional site.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah. Which I'll tell you more about in a sec. But to do this, we needed to brainstorm a bunch of really sensitive questions.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So I'm sitting there in his office. I even remember what I was wearing. It's one of these like flashbulb memories. And he starts off and he's like, what about bestiality?

[A]

Sure, yeah.

[B]

What about.

[A]

Oh my God, that one is almost more innocuous.

[C]

I kind of agree.

[A]

Like asking someone about anal to me is more. So we had that too revealing than bestiality just cause a racist.

[C]

Low probability.

[A]

This is low probability.

[C]

I need you to validate me, you know? And then it was just like every. As someone who's neurotic, every question that I felt revealed something about me. Every brainstorm like that I was either a prude if it was like, have you ever masturbated? Or that I was really irresponsible. Like, have you ever neglected to tell someone about an STD that you had? And so I was just Very meta. So then the study, what we did was for the crazy site, the unprofessional site, which is supposed to be a site that you should never share your data on because it looks shoddy. So it was called How Bad Are youe? And it had this bitmap graphic of a devil and comic Sans font. Like, it was just ridiculous, completely absurd looking. Also, people gave their actual identifying information. Some of the things were illegal, and they revealed twice as much. Wow. On the crazy site that is unprofessional than the one that just looked kind of normal.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

What was your group of people responding to this? How were you reaching those people?

[C]

So that's a great question. Different samples. One was, I walked around Carnegie Mellon with the laptop. We had this big data truck. We had like a whole van that we'd drive around and get. Bring people on the van to be

[A]

asked about sexual questions in a van. It sounds a little.

[C]

I know the things we did.

[A]

Step into this windowless panel van and let's talk about bestiality.

[C]

And then we go in the evening to, like, drinking spots.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Oh, my advisor managed to amazingly get it posted on a blog of the New York Times.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So it was. New York Times readers are doing this too. So that, like, enhanced the legitimacy. And so the samples. Maybe you change the questions so they're more relevant to the samples. But again and again, we found that people revealed, like, twice as much on the nasty end.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[C]

But then it's like, well, see, this is the thing in my narrow thing, we're like, oh, my God, this is like an amazing publication. And we wrote it up because it was, like, so shocking to academia. But then when I'm presenting it, everyone's laughing at. It's hilarious. And then I'm like, well, duh, of course people read. Cause it's hilarious. Cause it's fun. People want to reveal. Cause it's fun to reveal.

[A]

Well, also, the creators of the site have already broadcast their morals. In some sense, it makes it easier. They go, hey, there's a place for naughty people.

[C]

Right.

[A]

The devil's here.

[C]

And it's kind of saying, I don't feel judged here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this other place, I'm gonna feel judged totally.

[B]

Or like, the government's watching or something.

[C]

Right, Right. If it's official, then it even.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like these clowns, I mean, they couldn't do anything if they wanted to with my data. They can't design a website.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Those kinds of reactions were so helpful to me when I presented it because over the years, I came to realize that this perspective that we're bad at privacy and we overshare, it was not wrong, but it wasn't right. It was just so narrow. And when I looked back, the one single thing that was consistent was that when I make people feel comfortable, when I make it funny, when I. They really want to reveal. So kind of ever since, I've been obsessed with the other side of like, are we sharing enough? And why do we do it and what does it get us? And what are the ins and outs of all that?

[A]

And that's what the work evolved to. Right. You start doing more work on vulnerability and sharing, what, 10 years at Harvard?

[C]

Yeah, after. I would say, like 10 years.

[A]

But can I ask, while you were doing the secrecy work, what is the driving force behind secrecy? What price do people pay for carrying secrets? Oh, does everyone have them?

[C]

Have secrets?

[A]

Anecdotally, knee jerkins say, yes, everyone does, but I never studied it.

[C]

I mean, is there someone in the world who doesn't have a secret? Maybe. But the vast majority of us have secrets, it's safe to say. And the average number of secrets that each person carries is 13. Oh, wow. But with a huge amount of variance.

[B]

13's high.

[A]

Because my hunch is when we evaluate who has secrets, we go like, well, all right, I'm an addict. I've had all kinds of carnage and lots of sexual partners. So I'm like, oh, I probably have more. But I think that would be a wrong understanding of secrets, which is they're not big infractions, per se. Everyone has some barometer of what they're trying to do, and when they fall below it, that becomes a secret.

[C]

I had an old friend of mine reach out to me literally a month ago. I hadn't seen her since college. We were roommates. And she's like, leslie, I have a secret that I have been carrying for God knows how many years. This was the second thing she said to me on this catch up call. She said, I'm the one that ate the Oreos.

[A]

Stop. There you go.

[C]

We knew it was you. We knew it was you the entire time. Like, it's fine.

[A]

What could be cuter than stealing some Oreos?

[C]

I know. And she was so earnest. I mean, so Canadian. Right? She was so earnest about it. And then I was like, really? I feel for you that you've been keeping this so long. Right? And that's the thing with secrets is that. That secrets can be harmful when you're actively keeping them. Cause you need to, like, monitor and there's been some really fascinating studies on how when you are keeping a. Like these studies, actually they're good experiments in that they kind of endow you with a secret or not. And then they do some kind of intelligence test and you perform worse. It's because you're actively monitoring. You're preoccupied with a secret. Right, Exactly.

[A]

Brain space to keep all the many versions you've told of it astray.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. And then it's like stressful and it's bad for well being and all this. But that's of course not to say that we should say anything and everything all the time. We often keep secrets for very good reason. Like I'm thinking of family secrets and secrets from our children.

[A]

Well, there's legal ones too.

[C]

Legal secrets too.

[A]

There's things that could get you arrested. In aa, we have a really good kind of policy. It's like you're obliged to make an amends to people, unless to do so would injure that person or others you have to be very objective about. Is unburdening myself hurting you and then other people? Yeah.

[C]

There's also tons of research on how when you say the thing, it's worse in your head than it actually is. Ends up being.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

A lot of it is like the rumination before you say the thing and then you say the thing and you're like, oh, why was I ruminating? That was a waste.

[B]

Like the Oreos.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, like the Oreos.

[A]

So how did that then transition from kind of being obsessed with secrecy to encouraging Ultimately you wrote a book encouraging people to share more.

[C]

The main impetus was this growing leading a double life feeling of I literally was like, like telling people we suck at privacy. I would lecture them. And then in my personal life, did I have all my passwords on a notepad? Do I do buzzfeed quizzes like they're my kryptonite? Yes. Wait, that's hypocritical. At minimum. But I think if you asked me to probe deeper into it, I would say it also coincided with. There's been a lot of changes in behavioral science and kind of the old school way of doing things is really negative. And like people are bad at making decisions and look at all the ways we suck and it's really fascina seeing how we're irrational. But I felt that that kind of vibe, for lack of a better word, it's kind of toxic. When you're like seeking what's wrong with people. Then you look around in academia and nobody praises anyone. It's Hyper, hyper critical. Where's the joy? And so it was like, okay, wait, revealing. Why did they do it? Maybe people are right to do it. Maybe it's joyful, maybe it's fun, maybe it opens up doors in relationships, maybe it gives you influence. Maybe it does all of these things. So I was like reflecting on times when I thought that I had overshared. These moments of tmi. It's like I poured gasoline all over my body and lit a match. There's no recovering from this. And I looked back at these and I was like, yeah, that sucked. But what about the long game? Every single one of them. There was something amazing that came out of it. I only connected it when I was working on the book.

[A]

Yeah, cause you were in a group of other people and you were encouraged by high status members of the group to share an embarrassing story.

[C]

I. E. Career suicide. So I was a baby academic. I was at this conference late at night and there was mostly junior people, but there was a couple of super grand poobahs who did not know of my existence at that point. And someone had the idea of let's go around the circle and share our most embarrassing story ever. And most of them were like humble brags, like there's a typo in my abstract or something like oh no, the horror, right? Like this way of showing off without seeming like you're showing off. That's super obnoxious and eye roll. And for whatever reason, I don't know why, impulsively I just went for it and I shared my actually most embarrassing story which was when I was in college, I was acting at a play and I peed myself on stage. Like in a lavish way.

[A]

Uh huh. Full evac of the bladder.

[C]

Full evac.

[B]

You could see it I believe.

[C]

So how much detail do you want?

[B]

Detail. This is our bread and butter.

[C]

For real. Buckle in. I was wearing pantyhose. Yes, it was noticeable. And I was in my deluded thinking, half thinking, panic in the moment. I'm on stage and it's like a waterfall. It feels like cause I played a drunk.

[B]

Oh, you were just in character.

[C]

And so I was like really into it because I was like a prim and proper. And there's this one scene where I go crazy that I couldn't wait for. And so I'm on the tables and they're laughing and the Clara's laughing. So then I laugh and then that happens. The waterfall. But then I think okay, well how do I cover this up? I don't want them to see this. So I have this giant bottle of vodka. And so then I'm like, diluted. So then I'm throwing the vodka everywhere.

[B]

Really small.

[A]

This was quite a performance to witness.

[B]

But also, a drunk person would pee. So that's like.

[A]

I know. I'd be like, oh, cool. They rigged up. There's a rig in there.

[B]

And they made it like 40. Like you can smell it.

[C]

Yeah. You're so sophisticated. This is small town Ontario.

[B]

I'm just.

[C]

But anyways, I don't know. To this day, my family and I have never spoken of it. So I shared it. Sorry I'm being verbose. We shared it. I went for the kill. Not strategically. And then I was like, oh, no. And everyone else was, who's that girl? Weirdo. And so then I thought, well, that's the end of my career. And then I woke up the next day and just so much rumination. But then writing the book, looking back, I thought, wow. I felt very ashamed. People looked at me weird. I got a lot of this negative feedback. But those two guys, they became my closest mentors. One of them, Mike Norton, who you've had, he's like my chosen big brother. He came here a couple years ago for this book and he was there. And it wasn't, despite that, that we've become close. It's like you were real and not a robot and took a risk and could have gone badly. For sure. I lucked out. So there's lots of moments like that when I started thinking. Even the stuff that really feels tmi, there's often an upside to it that we sometimes don't appreciate in the moment.

[A]

Yeah, I heard you say that kind of. In general, not much qualifies as oversharing other than online.

[C]

Online, I think, is super tricky because it's not like a normal social interaction. And then companies all rig it to get our data. And online is super tough. I'm almost to the point where if you never feel like you've crossed the line, then you're not doing it enough.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I don't know if you've had Linda Babcock. She's this amazing economist. She studies negotiation. She's written a few books on women and negotiating. And she said to me, I remember Carnegie Mellon, she said, leslie, if you always get what you want, you're not asking for enough.

[B]

Oh, I like that.

[C]

And I think it's the same way with revealing sometimes hitting the tmi. We should celebrate because now we know where the bound is.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If we never get there, then we're not Doing it enough. And we're missing out for the people

[A]

who are in the world screaming, like, why do they gotta share that? You know, there's definitely a chorus of people who are like, why you need your dirty laundry out there? Why you gotta share all that? Let's try to make a steel argument for what it is that you think they're objecting to. I have my theories.

[B]

I have one, too.

[A]

Hit us.

[C]

I believe that sometimes. So that's why I believe that too.

[A]

Have that thought.

[C]

I have that thought too. Say more.

[B]

Normally I object when there are other people involved in their overshare. And I'm like, these other people that are involved do not have the opportunity to speak up.

[C]

Yeah, that's really annoying.

[B]

In a lot of memoirs, I think, have this trick.

[A]

This is in your book, sharing what's not yours to share.

[B]

Yeah, but it's tricky because what's yours and what's not yours?

[A]

Especially when you're talking about your family.

[B]

I'm talking about your family. It's like your story or your husband or wife really hard, or your exes. These are real people out in the world. And I find that very complicated.

[C]

I agree. It is very complicated.

[B]

Even if you hate them, it's your perspective, which I guess is the point.

[A]

Yeah. Let's break it into defined categories. So one would be that type of share where it's just like, you're spilling everyone's tea versus I'm owning up to something publicly. That's very shameful. That's a specific category. I think that's the one we would want to encourage. And then, so within that domain, is there any pattern of when people feel like it's too much in the domain

[C]

of owning up to your.

[A]

Yeah, the good thing we want. Where it's like you're just owning your own struggle or your own shortcoming or your own failure.

[C]

I think that there is definitely TMI potential there. I'm thinking, for example, let's say you're going back to work after an absence. Health related. Let's say it's substance abuse related. You got it all under control now. You're like on the road. But it would be too much to tell everybody all the gore about it.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like, that's just not necessary. That's like bringing everyone down. They just need to know that you're doing better, you've addressed the thing and you have the maturity to help yourself and to get the. The tools you need. That's kind of going into detail about all the ins and outs of the problem. Another one would be, this is one that Alison, who I know I actually, her book is right behind you. Alison Brooks's book talk. Her take is you should never say if you have to cancel or you have a conflict, you should never give the reason why. Cause that's tmi. Cause she's like, there's never a reason that's good enough. So you should just say, I can't make it. My take is different. I think that you often should give the answer, but only if the answer is actually a good unassailable, like, my child is sick. That's unassailable. And people understand more and then they empathize with you. But what would be a bad example of that is if it feels selfish or if it feels like you are putting yourself above the other person. And most explanations do that. But there are some, like, children are an unassailable reason. Like, everybody knows that. Of course they take priority no matter what.

[A]

Family emerges.

[C]

Family illnesses. Yeah, yeah. Another area where. Where it's tricky is when these situations are all situations where you're saying it to a group of people like, that's risky. But if it's one on one, it's so much easier to read the room. And you have a relationship with these people who you called up. I think it's very low risk in that sense.

[A]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking that your keys are actually in your hand before you close the car door. Have you ever stood in a parking lot full of sun, staring at your keys, sitting right there on the seat, 4 inches away and completely useless to you? It's a very specific kind of humbling. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an Allstate roadside plan. Today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North America Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club Incorporated and Allstate Affiliate. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Summer's one of those seasons where there's this pressure to be on all the time. Say yes to everything, pack the calendar, and then you end up more burnt out than when it started.

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[B]

Totally. It's less pressure, but more like readiness.

[A]

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[A]

I think what happens a lot of times when someone shares something, if you get the sense that it is some kind of indulgent exercise on their part or that there's some manipulation to it, it's looking for sympathy if it has these outcomes. I think we're kind of good at detecting that insincerity. Yeah. And that's problematic. We know people that are just addicted to the adrenaline of shock value. And I'm on spectrum somewhere. Right. Of course it feels normal to me, but I'm sure for other people. But yes, I get more alive if we're talking about something a little more dangerous. Yeah, More.

[C]

I think that makes you human. That like talking about risque, juicy subjects is just more fun. We pay more attention. We're more dialed in.

[A]

There's novelty on the other side as well. Like you're going to tell me something likely I haven't heard a version of yet.

[C]

It's seductive even.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's intimate. Yeah. Yeah. And I think think that's the number one when people are like, how do I think about this better? How do I decide what's tmi, what's not? How do I choose what to reveal and whatnot? I think the number one thing is knowing your purpose in your heart of hearts. Why are you doing this? I think it's a more complex question than it seems. Because it's like how therapy has that annoying feature of keeping every question begs more questions, right? Because it's like, what's your purpose? You really have to be brutally honest with yourself to come to the realization that, oh, I'm just doing this cause I want status or I want to show off.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

[C]

Requires a lot of self awareness to really be that level of honesty with yourself.

[A]

And there's likely multiple motivators within it. What one are you isolating?

[C]

Totally conflict. And what we found, when people do consider these decisions, these really hard decisions, like, do you tell your boss that you have adhd, could get accommodation, you could lose your job? Do you tell your kids about your partying ways? Do you tell your spouse about that old fling? Do you tell your spouse you're disappointed in them? All these things are like, very unclear whether you should. Should do it or not. And so often we just default to silence. We don't even consider doing it. And then when we do, I found that it's like 90% plus of the time when I do say, okay, think of something that you're considering. Tell me what you're thinking about. Tell me what's on your mind. 90% of the things that people think about are the risks of revealing. They're like, oh, you know, if I speak up at work because someone didn't credit me for an idea, they'll think I'm petty, it'll ruin the relationship. And that's all reaction. That's totally valid and legit, but they stop there. What about the risks of not sharing? Well, I'm gonna ruminate, then I'm gonna be passive aggressive and that's gonna be bad for the relationship. So, like, zooming out is, I think, a really important part of making better decisions. I mean, we've shown it in our research that we fixate on the risks of revealing for lots of reasons, about how our brains work. But then if we zoom out, we make different ones. It doesn't mean everything should be revealed for sure or not, but I think we should reveal a little bit more than we think we should most of the time.

[A]

And what advice do you have for these different asymmetric relationships or status relationships? How does that work?

[C]

Status is tricky. Workplace is a place of mixed status often. And that's where we need to be crafty because it's tricky. And we need to realize that in any given day, we move up and down the status Hierarchy, I mean, when I'm talking to the dean, I'm lower status. When I'm talking to students, I'm higher status. So like, each person depending moment to moment. And I think when we are in a high status situation, we have so much more leeway than we think and it's so powerful. I'm thinking of, for example, like Angelina Jolie, the op ed she wrote in the Times on breast cancer and double mastectomy. And after that, so high status person, there was a noticeable uptick in people getting screened. You can do so much good in destigmatizing things, in prompting action if you're high status. And again and again we've studied this, We've studied people in high status situations saying some of their weaknesses, like CEOs of companies saying, my organizational skills aren't the greatest. Sometimes they're not saying like, I'm pathologically messy. That's tmi. But going a little bit more, and it makes their employees like them more, be more motivated to work for them, trust them more. It has all these benefits. Like, it's kind of obvious talking about it now, but when we ask managers, like, what do you say to your new team when you introduce yourself? It's all just like positive things about themselves. They never share what they're working on. It often doesn't occur to us to do it right.

[A]

We think we gotta sell ourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And in so many situations, I think it's less selling, more curiosity, more question asking. The times when you actually need to sell and persuade are very few and far between in everyday life. And in fact when you trying to sell, oftentimes the way to sell is to not be.

[A]

I was gonna say it's also just white noise.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you're doing the same thing everyone else is doing.

[C]

Yeah. Cut through.

[A]

Have you studied how people receive that?

[C]

So we've studied what are good ways to receive someone's disclosure. There's some really interesting work on that. So like, if someone says something really sensitive to you, confides in you, what's a good thing to do? This is why I love what I do. My instinct is often wrong. And then I learn from research. Oh, I did the exact wrong thing. So my instinct is often like go into fixed mode. Right. So if my husband's like, this colleague is like such a pain. I'm like, okay, well, well, let's problem solve. And that's typically not the most useful thing. The most useful thing is validation is just saying, I hear you. That must be so hard that guy sounds like a real dick. Just saying less is more. There have been neuroscientific studies of this. When you validate someone's feelings, even when they know that you're literally doing this almost performatively, like you're instructed, even when I know you're doing this. The areas of the brain, the really emotional ones, it's constant for someone to repeat back to you the things that you are feeling, which has so many lessons. Like, in parenting, I apply that. I have to fight myself. I'm like. Right. I'm, like, going into, like, fixed mode. And then. No, no, no, no, Tyler. I know. That's so frustrating. I would feel the same way, too.

[A]

I've had a unique experience of just being in AA for so long. I think it's such an abnormal experience to watch people do exactly that all the time. It's all oversharing. It's almost always shaming. And just getting to witness the reaction to that was truly the opposite of what I feared growing up. And then it's always met with understanding and forgiveness and all these things. It's a tough sell to people who have not had that experience. We deal with it on the show all the time. We deal with publicists who are gatekeepers of actors. And the publicists will go, look, I can put them on a different show, and they won't have to talk about anything.

[B]

This is a very vulnerable show. We require. I mean, the types of conversations you're gonna probably say something about yourself, right,

[C]

Reveals something that necessitates what you want

[A]

to educate them on, which is a very hard sell, is, look, I've said everything on here. I've said I've been molested. I've said I relapse. I said this. I said I cheated on my girlfriend. Like, I've said all this stuff. It has not made people repelled by me. I'm an example of the thing you're afraid of. And then also look at these thousand episodes where people did it, and there's never been blowback. There's almost never been. And it's very frustrating that that's still the paradigm that you think these things repel you to other people, and all they do is endear you to other people. So I'm really fascinated by why it works so well. I think there's, again, the social primate thing. There's a level of trust that you bestow onto me by telling me your secret or something you're ashamed or embarrassed on. And then I into it while they trust me. And now we're in a trusting relationship and now I feel inclined to reciprocate.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

And now we really are building something deeper. But then I think there's this aspect to it that is I think we are attracted to bravery. Say more as a species. You can just easily figure out why, like evolutionarily. Evolutionarily. The one that went out and found the new water hole should be celebrated. The one that fought the lion should be celebrated. You know, these acts of courage and bravery we, I think are hardwired to appreciate. That's why we love these athletes. And I think people immediately recognize brave bravery, you know, immediately. You can feel it, how scary it'd be for you to have said that same thing to yourself. And you go, wow, that was really brave.

[C]

You admire them for it. You admire them for it.

[A]

It's attractive, it's courageous.

[C]

Your intuition and your lived experience is super consistent with the data. You know, I love that I, in my job I get to put people in these kind of absurd decision making scenarios. Like I trap them and then they, the choice they make hold if I've designed it well, illuminate something about human nature. And so our version of what you just said to show that was this study where what we did was we asked. So imagine you're deciding between two prospective dates. So there's two people you're thinking of dating. You talk to one of them, you ask them. I'm laughing because it's a ridiculous question. Have you ever had any STDs?

[A]

Uh huh.

[C]

And they said, oh my God, like I have had all of the STDs and even the undiscovered ones. The other person, you asked the same question. Like I'm not telling you this contrast we're interested in. Might it sometimes be better to just say the worst possible thing relative to saliently saying, I'm not doing that right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And in fact it is better to say I've had all the STDs than to just not answer the question.

[A]

Because our imagination is stronger than reality. What do they have going on that

[B]

they can't, that they can't say. But also then that's a little tricky with boundaries. I agree that if I was on these dates, I would also be like, yikes, if you're not telling me this is something crazy. But I also believe you should be able to say I'm not comfortable answering that.

[C]

I don't know you. Yeah, principled. Withholder, you would think. And so we did like ridiculous number of studies. You know, a social scientist Tinker, tinker, tinker. And we tested like, okay, what if it's like a principled withholder? That's like, that's an obnoxious question. Still we hate them. And so I've come to believe that it's something really deep and primal in us that is so rewarding about we're so oriented towards self disclosure. Why? Because it's social risk. And the social risk, when I do this, I'm showing that I trust you and then when I do that then you trust me. And so it's precisely because it's risky that there is reward.

[A]

Okay, let's talk about parasocial relationships. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well first let's talk about the illusion of reciprocity.

[C]

Okay. Like this that's at the heart of parasocial relationships. A parasocial relationship being a one sided, often between people in the media, celebrities and someone who's not a celebrity feeling this real sense of emotional connection to the person. But the famous person doesn't even know the person's existence. We're so wired towards social relationships. Right. And our brains are kind of a little lazy. We take shortcuts. And so most of the relationships we have, or at least our brains think that most of them that we have are two sided. But now there's so much more opportunity for one sided with social media. But our brains kind of haven't adapted to that. And so we use this heuristic of like, oh, if I know a lot about them, they must know a lot about me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because up until 1900 it would have been impossible to know a lot about somebody that didn't also know a lot about you virtually.

[C]

Yeah. If you think of like the Caesars, there was parasocial relations, I'm sure there. But the scope of this is just, just exploded because you have so much access to these people, like revealing a lot about themselves, which revealing we know makes you feel like you know them and they know you. And trust, that's really the accelerant of these relationships. There is something very real about them because there are real feelings involved.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[C]

So there's something really real about them and they can be really helpful in many ways. One simple way we've shown this is where, look at the people you follow on social media. How well do you know them? And then I asked how well do they know? And then I asked, by the way, do any of these people actually follow you? And almost none of them are mutually. But yet the degree to which I think that I know you is super strongly Correlated with the degree to which I think you know me.

[B]

Wait, so people do think it?

[A]

Your brain just feels it? Your brain feels it. I know. I know.

[C]

It's wild.

[A]

I know so much about this person. You intuitively know. And they also know a lot about me. Exactly, because that's how it has worked for 300,000 years.

[C]

Like, one symptom of this is if a fan comes up to you and they, like, start telling you super personal stuff as if you're in. That's what you do in a relationship. Like, I'm sure that's happened to you.

[B]

I hang out at Cara a lot.

[C]

What happens?

[B]

Constant. Every time.

[C]

Does it get annoying?

[B]

No, it's lovely. I think it's so nice. I love that they always come and they say thank you, basically. But then, yeah, there always is some vulnerable moment. Like, someone gave me this long letter. Very personal stuff.

[A]

And specifically, Monica had a show about freezing eggs and fertility.

[C]

And so.

[A]

So she gets tons of women. They're gonna tell her, of course, immediately, the fertility story.

[B]

There's a lot. And I think we're in a very interesting position because actors have a little bit less of a parasocial relationship because you at least know them as famous. They're like. They're this famous dude.

[A]

Well, and you know them from their characters they've played in the past.

[B]

You know, from characters.

[C]

They don't reveal the way you two do. Right?

[B]

Yeah, but Dax is this weird hybrid, right?

[C]

Yes, he's a weird hybrid. You're right.

[B]

I am not. They got to know me here. We're extremely vulnerable and talking. Pooping our pants and talking about masturbating and, like, lots of stuff. You know what also happens is they'll come up and be like, oh, my God, when you told this story, and it's like, oh, my God, I can't

[C]

believe I told that story. Like, I am like, oh, yeah, you're a little mortified. Yes.

[B]

Because I forgot that everyone's listening. It is very weird. I also have been on the other side of parasocial relationships all the time. I am currently on the other side

[C]

of the parasocial relationship.

[B]

I'm listening to this podcast. These two women that are one degree removed from me in life. Okay. And I'm obsessed with them. I'm going back, listening from the beginning, having opinions, and I know. I'm like, oh, my God, this is so crazy.

[C]

What is driving you to do this?

[B]

Well, we've dissected it a little bit. I think part of it's like, oh, they're sisters. I wish I had that.

[C]

Me too.

[B]

I don't know. You feel like you're involved in that relationship and it's a relationship that's interesting. So it's so weird to have experienced both.

[C]

And now that we're talking about it here, do they know?

[B]

I mean, I've been talking about it

[C]

for a couple weeks.

[B]

It's probably gotten back to them.

[C]

What's the next move?

[B]

No, but I don't want to meet them. No.

[C]

So why don't you want to meet them?

[B]

I think because I've been on the other side of it. Yes, I know that meeting is not.

[C]

It's never good.

[B]

It's like, for what that might shatter a little bit of this fun thing

[C]

I've created the illusion. The illusion, yes.

[A]

We differ on this greatly though.

[C]

You do. Interesting.

[A]

Our reaction to the attention. One of the fights we have a lot on here is about she would never date someone that listens to the show.

[C]

Oh, that was my next question for you. Would you ever date a fan? You would not.

[B]

Not a fan. Someone who listens is one thing, but someone who's an active, why not?

[A]

My argument is like, that makes sense for an actor who played a queen in a movie and everyone fell in love with her and she had perfect wardrobe.

[B]

It's not her.

[A]

It's not her.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

He's like, you don't love me. You love this character. I'm like, Monica, if they love you, they love you.

[C]

Well, do you think they know the real you?

[B]

That's the thing. They know a version, but they don't. So for me, if you come in and you love me. Well, first of all, you can't love me. You do not know me. I guess that's sort of.

[A]

Did you love Matt Damon?

[C]

No.

[B]

Like, I'm smart enough to know.

[A]

I think you really feel love in your heart.

[B]

I feel infatuation. I feel.

[C]

Don't we all?

[B]

Exactly. I mean, exactly. I feel infatuation. But I do not love Matt Damon. I know. Love is the space it's earned. It's the space in between two people. It's both ways.

[C]

So I see what both of you are saying. I think that both has merits. I'm doing my positive parenting. Execs. Sorry.

[B]

I see his point too.

[C]

No, I totally see. I validate you. But a really important thing that we're hitting on is you wanna get there together. It's like one sided disclosure. This goes back to Arthur Aaron's where they had people. He grouped people together that didn't know each Other. And he had them go through a list of 36 questions that got more and more deep as they went along. And when people did that, they like each other at the end, one of them, even, so the lore goes, fell in love and got married. The control people, they just talk about small talk. It doesn't work. But then there was another study that what they did was they had people. Dyad1 got the same questions as Dyad2, but Dyad1 1 fell, swooped it. So the first person answered all the questions, then the second person answered all the questions in the other Dyad. It was the back and forth.

[A]

I asked a question.

[C]

You asked a question exactly back and forth. And it was only the back and forth that made people feel connected and loved. So it's really like the process of taking this risk together Now. That's not to say I wouldn't roll it out of the question of Monica being with a fan. I would just think that the fan would have to be cognizant that we need to. To, like, start.

[A]

Build your own share.

[C]

We need to build this.

[A]

Which I think is highly doable.

[C]

I think so, too. I'm such a romantic. But I digress.

[A]

Yeah, I'm in one with somebody I do know.

[C]

Oh, yes. Okay.

[A]

But it's the same because I don't know them the way I am immersed in his life as a parasocial relationship. So mine's David Sedaris.

[C]

Oh, I love him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have become, like, just. I can't stop listening every single night to his stuff. Probably for nine months, I've been listening every night relistening over and over again. Because, again, it's about his sisters, it's about his friends, it's about his husband, it's his life. And I can see myself so clearly inserting beautifully into he and Amy's breakfast. Like, I know I have the same vibe as them and I find the same irreverent shit funny. And I'm not afraid to be gross and dirty. Like, there's just all these indicators for me where I'm like, oh, I could really, really thrive in that little trifecta. And I tell Monica, the really weird thing for me is I am friendly with him. We text.

[B]

He's been on this show like four

[A]

or five times, but he is not close to me the way I am close to him. He's not listening to the show. And so I'm in even trickier spot where it's like, I have to figure out whether I pursue this relationship I want with him. Or if there's something weird about that or even if it's even possible. But I'm really enjoying it because it's such a weird feeling like I'm in love with him.

[C]

Love it.

[A]

I love him. I want to protect him. I want to just follow him around and make sure he's okay. Yeah, I love him.

[C]

I love it. Slash, I'm a little worried about it.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

But do you want to act on it or is it just the fantasy? Like you're here and then it's like it's never going to be what you make it out to be.

[A]

That's for certain. He's crankier than probably I know. And he's maybe more petty than I know. You know, he's more human than I know.

[B]

He's a person. Yeah.

[A]

That is kind of his brand is exposing what a shitty person he is. Which is why I love him.

[C]

Why you love. Yeah, he can do no more.

[A]

Maybe he could deliver. But for me it's more about. I would love to have that relationship with him. I hope I do somehow. But it has to be achieved in a real way that I'm not pursuing it. And he doesn't know how I feel. I am going to be reliant on him more than myself.

[B]

Yeah. I think because I've been in this position a lot. I've had a lot of parasocial relationships and lived in fantasy land like my whole life basically that I've had the bubble pop a lot. I've had the opportunity to meet a lot of these people that I had all these fantasies about and it goes away. The thing you had that like googly eyes goes away. There are some things that I think are fun that just like live in your imagination.

[C]

Yes, I agree. That does sound though also like the course of love and relationships and infatuation where the stages of being infatuated with someone and then over time you see that they scratch their bum and there's.

[A]

They clear their throat a lot.

[C]

Yeah. And it's the kind of positive illusions go away to an extent.

[B]

But I like that because that's intimacy.

[C]

I think this is where again getting there together is really important because when you build that together, social psychology says this on intimate relationships that then you get these positive illusions as you go along and the positive illusions sustain you a lot longer. I would think then if it's this one sided thing that's very kind of artificial in a way. But I say artificial because the feelings are real. And I do think that when people feel lonely during COVID parasocial interactions were a source of great comfort to people.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. This episode is brought to you by Pendulum. Now, listen, I'm gonna be honest with you. Until pretty recently, if someone said microbiome to me, I would've assumed they were trying to sell me something at a juice bar in Silverlake. But it turns out your gut is kind of running the whole operation. Your energy, your cravings, how you digest food, even your mood. So much of that traces back to what's going on in your gut. And once you start looking into it, it's one of those things you can't really unlearn. Pendulum Metabolic Daily is doing something different. They focus on what are called keystone strains, including a live strain called Akkermansia, which you can only get from breast milk. It's also the number one GI doctor recommended, Akkermansia, a product. So if you're curious about the gut side of the equation, check out pendulum. Go to pendulumlife.com armchair to save 20% on your first order using DAX. 20. All right, so this isn't new. Talk about the trapped in the TV effect.

[C]

Oh, yeah. So that was one of the first scientific explorations, or it was talked about in a scientific way. Is in the 50s. So there was a TV show called like Ding Dong School or something like this. And there was a woman in it. It was a kid's show, Ms. Francis. And, you know, TVs were novel then. And this was so interesting that this person could talk to you through the living room and it looked like she was there. And so what the children started doing is trying to bang open or like take apart the tv.

[A]

They wanted to let her out because they wanted to.

[C]

To let her out because they thought she was.

[A]

I know.

[C]

They thought she was trapped. I know. I think it captures this desire, someone who is so compelling, you just want more of them. But I agree with you that sometimes we should leave it at that.

[B]

But that's learned. I think that's learned behavior.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Can we talk about the science of connection?

[C]

Yeah, let's do that.

[A]

I mean, I have written down this sentence. Why are we instinctively drawn to mutual openness and how our brains respond to it, even when it comes from a machine?

[C]

Oh, I love that. This colleague of mine, her name is Yung Mi Moon, she did these fascinating studies. I think they were the early 2000s, where she had people interact with computers and the computers self disclosed to the person. They'd be like, I have up to 100 GHz RAM capacity. But I rarely get to use my whole capacity. They didn't even say I. It wasn't even that personified. It was like this computer but rarely uses its full capacity. And then people felt attracted and they liked the computer they that disclose to it. Which is so fascinating to me because the hardwiring case, the case for like when something acts like a human and reveals, then we feel fond of them.

[A]

Look how many movies we have where that's the storyline. We love stories about robots who really have a heart. We've done it 30 times and they always work. And there's a huge Broadway play right now.

[C]

Oh yeah, that's right.

[A]

The kids are obsessed with two robots that fall in love.

[C]

There's this amazing study where they put people in brain scanners and they had people answer kind of fun ish trivia questions about themselves. So like what's your favorite ice cream flavor? And when people did that, the pleasure centers of their brain were activated. So it really suggests that there's something deeply intrinsically reinforcing about self disclosure. And then they did the classic thing to convince the conservative economists. Economists that there's something to it. They had people actually, they gave them the opportunity to essentially pay money to answer questions about themselves. And people did it. They're like, I'll pay good money to talk about myself.

[A]

I read in your thing that just asking someone follow up questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The power of that. What's happening there?

[C]

This is now Allison Brooks, my bestie. She's done work on follow up questions as well. Follow up questions are really powerful because they signal that you're listening and people love to self disclose. It's as we know, intrinsically motivating. And so when you ask me a follow up question, it's not just any question. You're first. You're showing that you listen to me. So I'm like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. And you're giving me an opportunity to tell you more about myself. It's amazing. I'm in heaven. And the core to me of why this is so powerful is because social connections are like, we are herd animals and if we don't have them, then we die.

[B]

Yeah. If nobody cares about us, then we're excommunicated.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In my 30s, I found myself divorced and single again. And so I was navigating online dating. And looking back, I realized I did the exact wrong thing to attract a mate. In the sense that when I got to the date and if I was like not super into this guy, I Would just keep asking him questions. Cause I'm like, at least I'll learn something about him. Like, I learned about robotic knot tire, 3D knot tires. And, like, all these random things that I never knew existed.

[A]

Were you on academia?

[C]

I know that's a really nerdy one, isn't it? I did not want to date an academic. That's like a thumbs down. That's a negative in the grandmaster regression equation of my dating life. But, yeah, it was the exact wrong thing. Because then those are the guys that are like, she loves me. Yeah. And then by contrast, when I was really into the guy, I'm a very gut person on these kinds of things. When I was really into him, I would find myself selling, like, pitching.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, you're attractive.

[C]

Yeah. And then fortunately, I realized it kind of midway through that I was doing the wrong thing. But it's interesting how the instincts and, like, I study this stuff and my intuition was, like, completely wrong.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What impact does beauty have on a sense of familiarity?

[C]

Oh, my gosh. So just.

[A]

We love beautiful people.

[C]

We love beautiful people.

[A]

We do.

[C]

I know. I've heard if you could choose to be beautiful or intelligent. I think you said beauty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would say we gotta use the

[B]

word hot over beautiful.

[A]

Just to be clear.

[B]

Oh, why is that not for me?

[A]

Hot means you wanna have sex with the person.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Beautiful doesn't necessarily necessarily mean that beautiful means, like, soul. I can look at a lot of models and go, oh, they're beautiful. I don't think they're hot.

[C]

You want to be someone that everyone wants to have sex.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Why?

[B]

Because he's an approval junkie.

[A]

Yeah. That's the ultimate approval.

[C]

Why is that the ultimate approval, though? Why not? You are the most intelligent. I admire your brain. But why is that the thing for you?

[A]

Well, because A, it's what I didn't have. We all want what we don't have.

[C]

Or you felt like you didn't have. Yeah.

[A]

Right. By my estimation, no one slept with me because they thought I was hot.

[B]

But people were sleeping with you, though. That's what's weird. It's not like you weren't getting CBT sesh.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So boohoo. To me, it still worked out. Yes. Just think it's natural for us to identify what we don't have and to covet that. Maybe not. Maybe I'm unique in them.

[B]

Yeah. It's a spectrum, and I think you're on the far end.

[A]

I'm pegging it.

[B]

I would pick beautiful over hot.

[C]

Okay. Wow.

[B]

Why is that? Because she already has hot, obviously. No, no, no, no. I think it's more elusive. I think it's more rarefied air. It's harder to be. I think hot is all the parts of you you can be hot by being confident and having style, having a good personality like that.

[C]

Beautiful is like physical, physically, only you can't. I thought you were saying opposite. Okay, yeah, okay.

[B]

So for me it's like, well, I

[C]

got what I got.

[B]

I hate it. So obviously I wish that was. You know what I mean? And again, with intelligence, like I have some amount of that, so I don't really care. But we have heard from very beautiful people that they want to be seen as intelligent, but they don't know what it's like to be.

[C]

Which fits with you always want what you don't care.

[A]

Your grass is always greener, right?

[C]

Your house is always greener.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It is so interesting though. Okay, so.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So a friend of mine, Benoit Monette, who is also very beautiful. The punchline is beautiful. People feel familiar to us. So when you think of like why do we feel connected to celebrities? Well, one is now. They tell us a lot. We have access. So we feel the thing in our brain of how we can't tell that it's one sided. We confuse the two.

[A]

You know a lot about them.

[C]

Yeah, right. But also they tend to be beautiful, hot, whichever you prefer. And we actually perceptually view hot people as more familiar. We think they're more familiar. And in one of the studies they did, in this paper, they took photos from a Princeton yearbook. They did the study with current Princeton students, but it was an old yearbook. They didn't know the people. And then they asked the people, how familiar is this person? And the more attractive people were judged to be more familiar.

[B]

What? How counterintuitive.

[A]

Is there any explanation for that? It's just an observation. I mean, do we have any theory on why it triggers familiarity?

[C]

The explanation, it's something to do with the symmetry of the face. Beautiful is more symmetric and it's more fluent to process. The more fluent something is to process, the more familiar you can found ease of processing with familiarity.

[A]

I'm also going to come at it from a null hypothesis approach, which is distinctive features are novel, which is implicitly not. Right. So the more distinctive symmetry are not beautiful. Well, let's just say you have like

[C]

in a classic way.

[A]

Yeah. You have asymmetry. All the things that we define. The golden rule of beauty. Right. You're violating those.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's why I would argue that's what is beautiful about people, Right. Is when they're unique. But it's unique, which is the opposite of familiar.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But are you saying that because it's unique, it should stand out and be memorable?

[A]

Well, I'm just saying because it's unique, it's in opposition to familiarity.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

If you recognize. This is the first. First time I'm seeing this. That's the opposite of familiar.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Whereas if nothing's triggered, you don't file into new thing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And so it's familiar. Exactly.

[B]

You're told to, like, draw a picture of a man.

[C]

That's what you're gonna draw.

[B]

You're just gonna draw, like, a very standard something. And then if a beautiful person probably matches that standard, you draw symmetrically or you attempt to. Exactly.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

This is a zone that no one will like. When I've seen really hard movements and pushes to redefine beauty, which on the surf, wonderful and egalitarian and all these things. Why I've bristled is I feel like there's some dishonesty in that. At the end of the day, no matter what you say or who you put on billboards, when you do these tests and you just show faces of people. Symmetry. Symmetry. There's something up in our brain that values that. And I don't think you can ad campaign your way up out of that. And it feels dishonest in its pursuit.

[C]

Interesting.

[A]

As opposed to working on, like, how do we all deal with that? We don't look like Brad Pitt. That seems more productive. How do we come to terms with. Guess what, you are not symmetrical.

[B]

I guess it's a little confusing because you did also just say what you find attractive is uniqueness. And I think a lot of people do actually find unique features attractive. Or like, oh, that's interesting and intriguing.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So that's the opposite of what you're saying, too.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

Yeah. So for me, personally, I might have my taste face, but I think a

[B]

lot of people find. I mean, everyone likes Matt Bomer. Okay. Everyone looks at his face and is

[C]

like, yeah, he's classic, classically beautiful.

[A]

No one's gonna object to him.

[B]

Exactly. And I'm not saying we shouldn't put him on a billboard. We should. But also, I don't think putting. Oh, God, I shouldn't say him.

[A]

Yeah, we won't say.

[B]

Yeah, we won't say. But putting that person on a billboard who has unique you.

[A]

But I think I'd be the first to say it's like, yes, I am attracted to that uniqueness and fingers, fingerprinty. And I can acknowledge. I know that's not going to be the most broadly appealing. I can acknowledge the reality of it. I happen to find the Greek nose so hot. That's not going to get adopted by everybody. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So two things are happening. One is my personal preferences. And then also I can acknowledge that if you put up these two faces and you pull all of America, this person's going to get the win.

[C]

Although maybe there's just so much taste for uniqueness that it's not disingenuous that there is a segment of the population that likes Greek noses.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Yeah. In that sense, it would be what consumers demand. It wouldn't be disingenuous. I think one of the things I was reacting to in my mind, that I bristled against the feeling of you're being, like, gaslit as a consumer, that it's like.

[A]

Or a campaign.

[C]

That's what I mean. It's like, no symmetry is objectively beautiful. Like, we can agree. But I think. Think you can do this in a genuine way. Market someone who is not classically beautiful.

[A]

I do, too.

[B]

Yeah. Don't tell people that they can't like the symmetrical person. We're gonna like it.

[A]

I just feel placated or something.

[C]

Yeah. It's interesting, although.

[B]

Yes and no. Because sometimes when you see, like, the most beautiful person ever wearing, like, sunglasses on a billboard, it's like, well, I'm not gonna put those sunglasses on and look like that. It's a lie for sure.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now we're talking about what categories? Some categories. You don't. You don't want aspirational. You want. Oh, I see myself in that person. I would want to use that product. And guess what? People that are beautiful in quotes are how it's defined. They have a different experience on planet Earth that's worth us knowing about.

[C]

So interesting.

[A]

So think about this. If you're beautiful and everyone feels more familiar with you, what enormous advantages are there?

[C]

The advantage of being beautiful? The social benefits, which is that people are nicer to you, they smile to you. And I think that's. That's also not just bestowed on people that are beautiful, but also bestowed on famous people, on celebrities.

[A]

People that are beautiful can talk at a different pace. Your patience to listen to them is higher because you're very engaged and activated just by what you're seeing visually. It's stimulating.

[C]

That is true.

[A]

It's so stimulating. Normally you need the conversation to provide all the stimuli. But this face is doing a lot of the lifting.

[B]

But don't you think after five minutes you get adapted to that? I just think it runs out this all the time.

[C]

Like, oh, my God, that's a great point.

[B]

That girl can get cheated on. I've heard this so many times. I know.

[C]

I've heard specific people, like, she's the

[B]

most beautiful person in the world. How could anyone cheat on her? You adapt to people's faces.

[C]

Yeah. I think this may be an area where there's huge individual differences. For me, I'm just thinking of my first marriage. Great guy, amazing person. I never had the. Like, I want to. And I felt ashamed of that for a long time because he is such a wonderful person.

[A]

Deserved that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And then I found myself dating again. And then I realized, oh, no, I should just listen to what I really want. And that's. Call me shallow, but it's really important to me. And I see my husband. We've been married for eight years, and I'm like, you are so fucking hot,

[B]

like, all the time in bed.

[C]

And that's important to me. I wish it wasn't important to me. Like, I really.

[B]

You're being honest.

[A]

Here's what I say. Yes. If you are forced to be dishonest in pursuit of this principle you have, that to me, is not a principle.

[C]

And that's why if I had only been able to be honest with myself, of like, okay, it's fine.

[A]

This is how I'm built.

[C]

This is the way I am. But instead, I, you know, lots of reasons. I will not invoke other people, but I didn't learn that or I didn't acknowledge that about myself.

[A]

You're not telling me, and I already know what it all means.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You're an overachiever and safe child. And this is a good match. And this is a good, good, good, good, good, good.

[C]

Yes. And so on. And other things.

[A]

Well, that was fun. Yeah, I enjoyed all this. I do encourage people to get your book Revealing the underrated power of oversharing. As a big proponent of oversharing, I co sign on this book, Dr. Leslie John. Thank you so much. Hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes. Okay, bring everyone up to speed. You want coffee? You've been staying up too late. I inquired why? What's going on?

[B]

Well, I'm down another rabbit hole. Some cooking videos.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Not Allison. She hasn't put up any new ones lately. But I am watching. What's Gabby cooking What's that? She is a woman who.

[A]

Period.

[B]

She's a woman.

[A]

That's it. That's her unique offering.

[B]

No, she, like, she's a cook and she does videos and is very popular and she does. Or. Yeah. I don't know if she still does them. I assume she does these Instagram lives on Monday, so, like, you can like, watch and kind of kind of cook with. Along with her, which is cool.

[A]

Is it more exciting knowing it's live? Like, do you think that's playing into the notion of, like.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I'm sure that's why edit it. Yeah. I bet people love that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I. So, but then you just put them on Instagram, you know, like your old ones or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they live.

[B]

So I started watching those and they're like 30 minutes. She's making dinner in like a 30 to 40 minute. Yeah, that's what's kind of cool. It's like she's making it fast.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And heat and serve, basically.

[B]

I know. And.

[A]

And you'll watch a ton of them.

[B]

Exactly. And then I'm like, oh, no, it's one.

[A]

And you're having the same pull towards it as if you were watching a great series and the cliffhanger ending ends and you look at the clock and I cannot start this. And then you're like, well, I got to find out five minutes of it. It's that strong.

[B]

I. Yes. And we've got. Discussed that currently.

[A]

I.

[B]

Well, not currently, but yeah. I have been listening to Aaron and Sarah's podcast in a kind of crazy manner, and now this is similar. So. Yeah, I mean, I'm probably, you know, I'm coping.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With something, but I have nothing to heal right now, so I don't really know what it is, but I'm definitely in a like. Like escapist zone. So.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So Gabby's keeping.

[A]

And you have no hunches, or do you have hunches?

[B]

I was. I was really thinking, like, what feeling

[A]

am I trying to avoid? I mean, I mean, that's too generic. It's not that simple.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think it would be that simple.

[A]

I don't think it needs to be that.

[B]

I. I don't know. Maybe it's the itch for summer. I'm just like, really ready to get there.

[A]

I'll make an argument.

[B]

Great.

[A]

So we're working crazy at this time of year. Always for us, hardest time of the year. Because we're trying to build up enough of stockpile that we can take a summer vacation.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And always, I gotta say, you know, it's. We've been doing this for years now, and it's always hard. May June. Yeah, this one's going okay for me, but it's good, you know, I don't know if this is good or bad behind the curtain, but it's like we did 10 this week, right. So we're doing two a day, three fact checks, 13 recordings.

[B]

It's a lot.

[A]

So I know that I have been searching comfort in the evening. Just like I feel like, okay, from these hours, you got to be on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you gotta. You gotta push hard. And then when I'm off, I'm like, okay. I'm even making deals with myself. Like, maybe that's going on with you is where I'm like, yeah, whatever I have to do at night, fine. I just gotta kind of get through. Through to the finish line, you know, whatever comforting I need to do.

[B]

I guess, I mean, maybe it's that although the Aaron and Sarah thing's been going on for a while, so I don't know. I don't know what that is other than what we. I discussed maybe like a want for a sister, but. Okay. But I have recently been thinking, like, is something wrong with me? Do I need to get my blood work done? What's going on? That I, like, in the morning, I feel £3,000. As. As in, like I can. The idea of lifting this body and getting it out of bed feels like it requires Herculane strength.

[A]

So this is, this is clue number two, though, because now we got. We got sleep disruption, we got solving, you know, and then we got. We can't get out of bed in the morning.

[B]

I think it's all the same. It's all connected though. It's like I'm going to bed very late. So actually in the morning. Morning, like, I am still tired. I should be sleeping still.

[A]

You're getting less than 8.

[B]

I don't know. And I don't know what the quality of sleep. Oh, I had a. I had a horrible dream a couple nights ago that was like very. And you were in it and you were a bad guy in it and

[A]

you had a Brad Pitt sex dream. So they're all over the map this week. It's like the best dream you've ever had and the worst.

[B]

Oh, it's not the best I've ever had.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In my dreams.

[A]

I didn't mean to insult you.

[B]

Yeah, you don't know about. I don't know about your dreams, but. But it was a horrible nightmare. That included all of us. But I was like on the run in the dream. And so it was so high, it was so heightened. And then in the morning, of course, I was like, I mean, how good could I have slept if that's what was happening in my life?

[A]

If you were fight or flight all night.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Doesn't seem restful.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so then I had the idea to. To keep my curtains open.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that I would wake up naturally by the light.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

And I was like, that might solve my issue. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it kind of did.

[A]

Cool. But you got to get up really early.

[B]

Exactly. Then I was like, oh, I like woke up and I looked at the clock and it was five.

[A]

Well, that's the problem now that we're in summer because I wake up at 6:20 and yeah. I got to have everything shut in my room airtight because the sun's out for an hour already.

[B]

By 6:20 it was 5 and I was like, well, I'm not doing this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then I tried to go back to sleep with the blind or with the curtains open, but then I just closed them and then we're back in the same situation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's just, you know, I'm just have. I need to clean up my sleep hygiene, but not as I'm going into summer and traveling. It doesn't make sense.

[A]

You don't need to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This was my share on Tuesday night.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

This occurred to me while I was riding my meeting, which is I haven't talked about our leakings, Right.

[B]

No, you did.

[A]

I did.

[B]

Yeah. Because remember, I had a huge catastrophe and then you had a. You had that same day at a.

[A]

I'm not sure at the time of that recording how many we had at that point, but it was, it was one in Kristen's office while we were in Nashville. Get home two at the same time. Two different air conditioned coil boxes here, here. Then got it fixed, then broke again. Another night of rain. I've had three nights of getting woke up at three in the morning with the family going, it's raining in the downstairs bedroom.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which blows it with our schedule. Right. That's like, oh, it's not the time. I need to be up for an hour. Okay. Then yesterday we have this in the wall water dispenser that filters the water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that thing two nights ago that shit out at one in the morning and started flooding the kitchen.

[B]

What?

[A]

But crazy enough, I bought little alarms that go off when there's water. So they were Hearing the alarms downstairs, thinking a neighbor's like, alarm system was going off. But finally, thank goodness, Lincoln was like, I'm too freaked out to sleep downstairs with the neighbor's alarm going off. Like, are there boogeyman on the ground? You know, are there? So they all moved upstairs and when they moved, they realized the kids kitchen was flooding. Oh, okay. So that's five pretty major leaks.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In like a week.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

It's like we have a wall, a water poltergeist, and they're from all different things. It's not like one thing. Right. That ties all these together.

[B]

Loves water.

[A]

And so I'm writing to my meeting and it occurs to me I'm completely fine with this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's been challenging.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I haven't had that. I'm overwhelmed. What the fuck is wrong with this house? I'm mad at contractors. What? This house isn't even old. Like, I'm not going down.

[B]

You're not angry?

[A]

I'm not angry. Yeah. That's great.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

I'm not going specifically down the road of like, I've been fucked.

[B]

Yeah, right. Which I think you're not taking it

[C]

personally, which is right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But occasionally you get frustrated with the work that's done that you paid a lot of money for. Like you can. I can start building up the same. It's like, my God. You know, and he charged me four times. What? And it's fucking nothing, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that, that can happen to me and does sometimes. But I was just clocking. Like that didn't happen at all. Yeah, they'd just been like, it's that, yeah, that's annoying. Let's get it fixed. And then also, you know, I have got like untold disasters happening in. In Nashville with my bus and all kinds of stuff. So normally this stuff would really stress me out. And it would also. I would start getting really resentful at people and things. And what? And it's really, really fine. And I just realized like a. Sometimes biochemically, I don't know why. There's nothing different. It's just whatever reason my biochemistry at that time makes me susceptible to that or what I really think it's about for me is when my self esteem is high, nothing really bothers me. And when my self esteem is low, low, everything's a personal attack. I'm a victim. I am prone to self pity. The world's conspiring against me. How many leaks could I get? You know, like. And it's just self esteem.

[B]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[A]

I mean, but for me it's just self esteem. Like my self esteem governs exactly how I'm going to do with the world.

[B]

But your self esteem, I feel like then is tenuous.

[A]

It is. I have to, I have to fill my self esteem. It doesn't happen on its own. So it just so happens that like I've got lots of graduations going. I've got been attending a lot of things. I've been taking the girls everywhere. Like I've been so of service to them. They've been a full time job. I'm here working around the clock. That gives me esteem. The kids give me esteem. I've been like, of service. And yeah, my cup's filled. I like who I am this week, which is always up for debate.

[B]

Sure, that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. And I was just like, oh yeah. These things that feel a bit objective. Like objectively you'd be angry right now or objectively you'd be annoyed or objectively you should be pissed. That's just not true. Right. I, I could.

[B]

Well, there's no objectively you should be angry ever.

[A]

But when you're upset about all these things, you have a really good court case in your head that you're convincing yourself.

[C]

Like.

[A]

Yeah, well, anybody right now would be completely annoyed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And agitated and irritable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I just noticed like, oh, I'm not upset.

[B]

All. Yeah.

[A]

Why is that? Oh, it's this. I feel generally good about myself.

[B]

Purpose is important. Obviously.

[A]

It's just interesting. Like you for me, and not for anyone else, but for me, when I'm thinking about trying to tackle the issues that are giving me stress, I'd be inclined to confront those things, the leaks of this. And it's not that. It's like if I just fill up this other cup I actually won't mind all that much about. They'll just be like, oh, yeah, that's life. It's just.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Things happen.

[A]

It's inconvenient, but that's it. Nothing personal is going on. Definitely I'm not being targeted.

[B]

Yeah. Interesting.

[A]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. Okay. I've been wanting to share this for a minute.

[B]

Oh, Cher.

[A]

Which is, I think I, I came up with a banger only because my, my kids now sing it non stop.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. Okay.

[A]

But it requires a little bit of a story, which is, and I think people already know that I have reframed in my life that I am Tom Hardy in Mobland now. Whereas I'm Tom Hardy in The show Mob land.

[C]

Wait, you are.

[A]

I am in my mind.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

It started with that box that was stolen, the recycling box that was stolen by a homeless person. And I had to go find it.

[B]

Oh, that was a long time ago.

[A]

That was a long. Since then, I've been applying this framing to anything I have to do for my wife.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In the past, if she were to have left me, like, a list of things to do, I would have been. Well, I have been so triggered. I'll go like, I'm not your assistant. You can't leave me a list. Right. Like, that was a big thing for me.

[B]

Got it. Got it.

[A]

And once I clicked into this Tom Hardy thing, which is like, oh, no, I'm just a fixer, and I take, like, pride in that. So, I don't know. Two weekends ago, I had to meet them. Them somewhere. But she said, hey, before you leave, since you're leaving later, will you do X, Y, and Z? And Z was go get all the packages.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Okay. So I had gone through the first couple little tasks, and I, like, knew I was about to knock out the third one. And then I somehow. This song just came into my head. Okay, Okay. I might have to practice it once, so it sounds good before for it. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I really should do this, I guess.

[A]

My mission, should I choose to accept is to get the packages from the loading dock. Now, my mission, should I choose to accept, is to get the packages from the loading dock. My mission should I choose to accept is to get the packages from the loading dock. My mission, should I choose, so.

[B]

Oh, that's the song.

[A]

That's my song. My mission, should I choose to accept, is to get the packages from the loading dock.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And when I framed it, which is like, I'm. I'm Mission Impossible. They've given me the mission. I get to accept it or not. So I have some autonomy. Right? But my mission, should I choose to accept is to get the packages from the loading dock. So I go out and I get all these packages from the loading dock, and then I'm singing the song, and I'm feeling, like, really good about the song, right? And then I send a voice memo of the song to them, wherever they're at.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[A]

And then I have this moment of, I think, humility, where I go, this is crazy. Look at you. You need to create a song around it. You did a little tiny thing, and then now you want to share the song so that they will laugh at you. And then all of a sudden, this song popped into my head, which is also a banger. You ready? Okay. Because I realized this is how I was acting. I'm like, I'm the cutest little boy ever made. Watch me jump, watch me play. I'm the cutest little boy ever made. Watch me jump, watch me play. You don't even watch me sing, so you're not gonna watch me jump and play. So anyways, those are my two bangers.

[B]

I watch you jump and play all day long.

[A]

You do watch me jump and play all day long. Those are my two songs. And I have a lot of songs.

[B]

Clear.

[A]

Yeah. I have a lot of songs about my perm. Because my hair is getting so crazy. It's so curly now, which is really weird. My hair was always straight as an arrow, and now as an old man, my hair's curly.

[B]

Okay. Maybe just because everyone sees it, People

[A]

like, the whole visit, my mother was here. She's just like, I don't. Where did your hair. Hair gets so curly.

[B]

I haven't noticed it once being curly, But I'm not very observant. And you're wearing a hat.

[A]

Yeah. So I sing a lot of songs about encouraging people. It's okay. You can look at my perm. It's a really nice perm. Go ahead and look at my perm. So there's probably four or five songs about my perm.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So anyways, I guess this is all leading up to. I do think I have about 30 songs sent as voice memos, and I'm gonna start shopping them in Nashville.

[B]

Oh, you're gonna go down the streets and get into those. Those clubs?

[A]

No, I don't want to get in clubs. I want to offer to sell this. Like, you know, maybe Chris Stapleton. I know he writes his own songs, but maybe he'd like to sing on the show.

[B]

You got to get yourself into the clubs and you sing them, and then they. They like that, and then they buy it and stuff.

[A]

No, I'm gonna go to the publishers and say, can I have a writing session? Shortcut the system with Shania Twain?

[B]

You're gonna have to go to Bluebird Cafe.

[A]

So I'm gonna go to them and go, okay, I have 63 songs, but don't worry, it's only eight minutes. I'll all cumulatively. And do you want to work on any of these seeds of ideas?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Look, for my forthcoming Respect.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I respect the ambition. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I. I hope it. I hope it goes well.

[A]

Can you imagine me in one of those places singing my mission?

[B]

I kind of really?

[A]

Should I choose to accept it's a.

[B]

Because you also had an idea the other day. Oh boy.

[A]

I know another idea for what you

[B]

had an idea the other day that was interesting. That was a performance piece of you redoing some other people's standups.

[A]

Let's get the commenters to say about this idea.

[B]

Yeah, you, your. I.

[A]

My idea is to tour the country in every city I'm in. I will have learned a different standups entire routine team.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It started with Dane Cook.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we talked about Sports Chalet in the backyard. You, me and Anna.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And I immediately heard Sports Chalet will take you to the limit, which is a rocking song.

[B]

Anytime you hear Sports Chalet, everyone hears that. So.

[A]

And Dane Cook had a big bit about it.

[B]

Right. Which I didn't know. But yeah.

[A]

And then that made me think, oh, I want to go do that on stage. And so I think my first show will be doing Dane Cook's one of his specials just across the board and I'll do my hair like him. I know it's going to be hard when I do Chappelle and yes. No, I got to honor them. And so it's going to be hard when I do Chris Rock and Chappelle.

[B]

You're not allowed to do any of those things.

[A]

It's an art installation.

[B]

This is disgusting. You need to get your feet. I think you need to touch grass for just, just like eight minutes or something. As long as it takes to sing your 65 songs.

[A]

So Monica thinks it's a terrible idea. But let me just in the comments. If, if I came to your town to do, you know, Shane G. Likely illegal. But yeah, there's be going to be some copyright issues and there'll be some lawsuits. But what it's worth it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I could. I think there could be a herity law here. I might be able to get away with infringement though. Okay. But I'll be doing Shane. If you want me to come to your town and do Shane Gillis's beautiful Dogs from beginning to end.

[B]

Okay. I would prefer. And it's okay because I think it's going to take you a long time to do this. Like memorizing.

[A]

Imagine how long it would take to learn an entire stand up routine.

[B]

I would prefer this happens post retirement for you when I'm not no longer associated. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Cuz you think it's really.

[B]

Picture.

[A]

It's really. What would be the word?

[B]

I find it. Oh man. I find it bad on so many levels.

[A]

Yeah. Tell me all the levels.

[B]

It's like lazy. There's something like so lazy about it.

[A]

But you would agree it's not lazy. It would take so much effort to do that.

[B]

No, but it's lazy in that you're telling somebody else's jokes and I just can't.

[A]

I mean, if I can't get on board. If I toured only as Dane Cook, that would be lazy. But if every city I've got to learn a new, fully new routine. That's the opposite of lazy. That's way harder than having a routine you do in each city.

[B]

No, that's like. It's not lazy in the fact that you're. You're spending effort memorizing, but it's a lazy comedian. It's just repeating other people's literally not even under a guise like not even taking a joke and like making it your own, which also I don't think is right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

I think it's like the. The.

[C]

The.

[A]

The famous piece of art that's just white.

[B]

Yeah. I hate that.

[A]

Yeah, you hate that.

[B]

So it's in keeping. You know, it feels. Yeah, it feels. Taking advantage of it feels illegal first and foremost and Right. Yeah.

[A]

But musicians, no problem. You go play other people's songs. No problem.

[B]

Covers that. That is true.

[A]

So. And we remake movies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Psycho is done. Shot for shot.

[B]

Well, but what do you mean? The original Psycho was remade with Vince

[A]

Vaughn and Gus Van Sant, and they did it shot for shot. Is the exact same movie do. Well, never heard of it, I'm sure.

[B]

Well, you know, I love Gus Van Zant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, again, I'm fine with you do. I can't stop you from doing anything you want to do in this life. I can just urge you not to do and then just maybe do it

[A]

like, down the line. Can I ask you a very sincere question?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would it make you extremely angry if I did do this and it was heralded as this really brilliant idea and people were blown away with how well I was mimicking each person. And everyone loved the experience. And like, the New York Times loved it. Would it piss you off?

[B]

It would. That's a good question.

[A]

Like, I was the toast of the town for this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because. Because it's like, this is enough. I guess that's sort of like that's how I would look at. Like, this is enough.

[A]

That's where we disagree. This task is insanely hard.

[B]

No, like, I just. Like.

[A]

You think you could do it?

[B]

Yep. If I wanted to do It. I could do it.

[A]

Oh, you did. I think actually you already did it.

[B]

I've already done it. No, no, no. I think a lot of people could do it. And that's the difference between being someone who just mimics somebody or replicates them word for word versus comes up with the stuff themselves. Also, you could just come up with stuff yourself. You're smart enough.

[A]

Of course I could. I've already done stand up. I've already written my own stand up.

[B]

So then just go take that out.

[A]

Yeah, but that's not a novel. Interesting idea. Idea to me.

[B]

Of course.

[C]

But it is.

[B]

It. It is what's novel and interesting because it'd be brand new. It is indeed novel. This is actually not novel because you're repeating somebody else's thing.

[A]

I mean, we could really get in the weeds about novel. But once you've written your routine, you did it once. It's not novel. You're just touring the country, doing the exact same 45 minutes every night.

[B]

No, but. I know, but coming up with the special. The first time it's heard new material.

[A]

Yeah, the first time it's heard. It's new for sure.

[B]

It's new in. In the whole world. It's new thoughts put together. But you know what? If everyone loves it, they can love it. Everyone gets to love what they love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm still not going to love it though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's great. Oh, okay. I do want to bring this up really quickly.

[A]

This is a house clean. That sounded like house cleaning.

[B]

Well, it's a call back.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. So today I'm going to Elizabeth and Andy's back to the scene of the crime.

[A]

Oh, where you need to use the turlet.

[B]

Yeah. And it's a very similar situation. Why very similar time of day? Well, exact same time of day. There will be dinner. I'm not exactly sure if mahjong is happening, but maybe. And it's almost exactly one month ago, so your pms.

[A]

I mean, you're premenstrual.

[B]

It could be burbling. Yeah, it could be burbling right now. Ready for another try at this gathering

[A]

the troops preparing for the invasion.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I. And it could also be like Karm. Like the world being like, what are you going to do this time?

[A]

Fool me? One. Shame on you.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. What are you going to do?

[B]

I know. I don't know.

[A]

You're going to go in their bathroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Good girl. Yeah.

[B]

But I should. Maybe I should bring some matches. Just today.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Or trash bag for your car.

[B]

I. I know, but I. I didn't

[A]

want to do that because I hope something goes sideways. Cuz we have a guest tomorrow that will love that. If we got a hot one fresh off the presses, the guest we have tomorrow will flip out.

[B]

You know, one person did validate me that the car was kind of a good idea.

[A]

What? One person? Yeah.

[B]

Also a Virgo.

[A]

Okay. So that's a friend.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She was like. I mean. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Did she not have a nice car? Maybe she's picturing her like old Caravan, which is great for then, but she

[B]

lives in New York.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

She don't even know it.

[B]

Doesn't drive a car.

[A]

She's imagining a taxi cab, which is totally fine and encouraged.

[B]

I didn't even.

[A]

Like. You wouldn't even try to hold it in a taxi?

[B]

No, of course I would. Of course I would. That's a. Again, public. This is the same situation.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Let me out. Let me out.

[C]

Let me out.

[A]

But people have a. You get in the cab and there's a different culture inside the cab. People, cabs or doing drugs in the back. Like they. You just go like, tough. We all live in the city. Like there's a. You know, you would agree. There's a different.

[B]

They're also pretty.

[A]

They're doing their own thing. By the way, driving is. Is. There's a lot going on.

[B]

Yeah. They mean to you.

[A]

They're mean to you. And also nearly 100% of the time they are talking to somebody on speakerphone as loud as humanly possible.

[B]

Always.

[A]

Yeah. And good for them.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Part. Yeah, like you said, part of the culture. But I really don't like that when it happens in an Uber.

[A]

Like if you're in the back, like this guy's up there, you know, he's in this really heated shouting match. Literally. I've been in many. Or this is a shouting match. Swearing. If he's engaged in that. Nah.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

And then all of a sudden he's like, duh.

[C]

Did you. Did you.

[A]

Yeah, I did. Go back to your phone call. Right. Like it's already an adversarial relationship. Just go back to your phone call, dude. You're the one that's.

[B]

That's talking on the.

[C]

So rude.

[B]

You're being so rude.

[A]

Yeah, I. I didn't even have to go until I heard you yelling up there. You scared me.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You're scaring me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you have any toilet paper?

[B]

Shouldn't be driving me like this. Do you have any toilet in your

[C]

Car cuz out of fear.

[B]

You owe sometimes yell at me and I don't like it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

They're mean and like if you're doing something. If they think you're doing something wrong on the like page, they're just always annoyed.

[C]

Yeah, they're really upset with you.

[A]

So annoyed with the passengers.

[B]

It's kind of cool.

[A]

I might be that way. I don't know. I'll find out when I drive.

[B]

Oh really? You'll be nice to people.

[A]

I don't know. What I'm saying is I've never done the job. I don't know if it's way more annoying than I think.

[B]

Oh, it's gonna be so annoying.

[A]

Okay. You'll be rolling your eyes till they fall out of your head.

[B]

That's why I would. I would never do it. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do that job too. Too many annoying people.

[A]

I'd probably get into a fight within a one week shift.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Someone would get in me and really treat me shitty.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would be like, now for the record, I'm really nice to all the folks that drive.

[B]

Would you play in the back of your cab your movies?

[A]

My own movies?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, if I was the driver, yeah. Well, that would be great. And then they're like, wait, hack into that little.

[B]

See I, I'll. I prefer this as your art installation you do.

[A]

Driving a cab with my own movies.

[B]

Yeah. And then there's like hidden cameras where we watch people like putting two and two together of what's going on.

[A]

This guy, it seems like that guy.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

This guy was in a movie. Now he's yelling at his friend in.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Kazakhstan overseas.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. I think that was be very interesting.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Well, let's do some facts. Love to Leslie, John.

[A]

Leslie. John.

[B]

There are so few facts for Leslie.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. No facts.

[B]

No, there's one.

[A]

Okay. Is it about periods?

[B]

No.

[A]

In the things that cause diarrhea. Yeah. Just bring that fact in. Sure.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Let's just say so. No, it is the Broadway play about the robots who fall in love.

[A]

Oh, my family loves this play. Have you seen it?

[B]

I have not seen it, but I have many friends who love it. It's called maybe happy ending.

[A]

Maybe happy Ending. Have you heard the music? No. Why would you? Of course my family, since they saw it and they love it, they got the soundtrack and I've heard it a lot and it's a very, very sweet, cute soundtrack. You know, it's about two robots that fall I know.

[B]

We love robots here. We love it. It's set in near future. Seoul, Korea. The musical follows. The musical follows Oliver and Claire, robots who have been abandoned by their human owners and are nearing the end of their operational lives. Oh, no. That's so sad.

[A]

That's our drama.

[B]

I don't want to see this. Come on.

[A]

God.

[B]

When Claire asked Oliver to borrow his battery charger, the two outcasts strike up a unique friendship, eventually embarking on a road trip that tests their programming and leads to an unexpected romance. Oh, my God, that's so cute. Okay, now she said okay. This was interesting. The trapped in the TV effect. That's a parasocial relationship thing.

[A]

Trapped in the what?

[B]

Trapped in the TV effect.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. From the 50s.

[B]

Yeah. Where kids are trying to, like, open

[A]

up the tv, liberate the.

[B]

And get the people.

[A]

News anchor.

[B]

I. That is so funny. And I wanted to find the. If there was, like, a specific show. But I'm not hiding that.

[A]

Do you think they wanted to let him out because they were trapped or they wanted to let him out to play with them?

[B]

I kind of think that. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if it was saving them or just like, I want to hang out with them.

[A]

I like the kids. There's. Often with little kids, there's a concept they're lazy to grasp. Mine was size. My mom tells this story all the time. She would hear, like, all this grunting, like, okay. And she would hear me grunting in my room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's like, what is he doing? Is he, like, pooping his pants? Like, what's going on? And every time she would peek into my bedroom, I would have my saddle shoe. I wore little saddle shoes as a little baby.

[B]

What's a saddle shoe?

[A]

You know, like, kind of patent leathery.

[B]

Oh, like a Mary Jane.

[A]

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Saddle shoe is what I know they're called.

[B]

Look it up.

[A]

Yeah, look up. Saddle shoes for babies.

[C]

Shoes.

[B]

Baby. Oh, cute. Is it like that?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's so cute.

[A]

Yeah. So I'd have my. My blue and white saddle shoe, and it would be pushed to the window of my Tonka truck.

[B]

Tonka. Okay.

[A]

And I couldn't understand why I couldn't get in. I wanted to be in the Tonka truck so bad. And she's like, you spent hours a day for a long time not understanding. You couldn't get inside of your cars.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I just couldn't get it.

[B]

Wow, that's so fast. I mean. Yeah, that's Kind of trapped in TV effect a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. Just like I can't. For whatever reason, my brain could not understand why I couldn't get in there. I mean, so obvious. I can't get in there. The window is like three inches.

[B]

You were little. I wonder what age we like, recognize the spatial relations. Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

And I was trying my hardest. And grunting, apparently. Which, you know, was my nickname.

[B]

Oh yeah, because you remember that I couldn't talk because you were deaf.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So at this point you were probably deaf.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you were really.

[A]

I was. I had a lot on my plate. I didn't understand size and I was deaf.

[B]

I wonder if they were connected. Connected. Cuz I couldn't.

[A]

You can't. Like if you can't count anyone out. If you were betting me and you met me at 2, you'd been like this prediction market been like, this is a stinker.

[B]

Not great.

[A]

This is a clunker. Can't hear. He thinks he can fit in Tonka trucks. Oh, this guy's destined for prison.

[B]

Well, as we know, with dyslexia, it's like prison or CEO.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So one funny. One thing that was interesting in this conversation was she talked about AI, like the AI revealing things and us feeling like intimate when it like reveals something. Us feeling a connection to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's revealed something. The other day, my AI, I said, what is this food? It came in my farm box and it was beets. I thought they were radishes, but they were beets.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it told me. And then it said, would you like some recipes? I think I said, like, how do you eat? Cook them or whatever. And it said, there are many ways. And it said. And then it said, my. My favorite is. And I got so mad.

[A]

I know you.

[B]

That is so deceitful. You don't have a favorite. You're a computer. You could say the most popular people like, yeah, my favorite. No, hated that. So deceitful. And this is why people then, yeah. Fall in love and feel intimate. Because this, this thing you're talking to has favorites. Yeah, but they don't.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that is theoretically what the appeal of it is. It's not talking to the robot on the phone. That's like push four for. You know, like the attempt is. Yeah. You feel like you're conversing with a peer who has an opinion. It's supposed to be the appeal. But for you it's very.

[B]

I don't think the appeal is supposed to be that it has opinions. It's supposed to be that it consolidates, it happens, helps. It does all these things you need to do fast. It processes information very fast. I don't think the appeal is that it. It has opinions. That's like what scares everybody.

[A]

Well, for me, that's what I'm looking for. So I go. I live on this lake. I want to be able to get to this restaurant in X amount of time. I don't want to buy a boat that serves eight, you know, eight people. Yeah. And it says, given all the things you want to do, I think the best option for you. I'm looking for advice. I am. And it tells me. And often it's like, oh, yeah, that's. I would have come to after four days about reading about boats, but it read the whole Internet and it said, given what you said you want to do, I advise you to get this one.

[B]

That feels different to me than my favorite.

[A]

Yeah, but it's like we are splitting hairs a little bit. It's like it's its favorite versus I give you this advice. It also can't really give advice. It's not a person.

[B]

Well, it can based on that. Advice is based on knowledge. It's like, okay, I'm doing all of this. This. And so the most efficient way is. Is this. That's my advice, because that's what you are looking for. But to say, like, my favorite is if you go this way is not what you're looking for. You're looking for efficiency or whatever. Whatever it is you said you wanted.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But that.

[A]

That rain didn't like that.

[B]

Not. It's just very slippery, slow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not me. Because. Because I'm aware that it's bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But like, man, this is gonna get so tricky for people. Already is.

[A]

I think it already is.

[B]

It already is.

[A]

Esther Perel already did an episode of Mating in Captivity with a guy in his AI.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I bet it's because he's like, no, her favorite color is purple. And I wanted to paint my. My room blue.

[C]

And I asked.

[B]

I asked her, I asked her, like, what is. What color should I paint my room? And my girlfriend said, purple, it's my favorite. So now I had to paint it purple.

[A]

No, because if you ask Jess what his favorite color for a room was and he told you purple, that doesn't mean at all you're going to paint your room purple. All that you did is get an opinion from your friend.

[B]

No. If you're in a relationship with someone and you think you're in a relationship, and you're deciding what color to paint your room. You. You do have to agree with your partner.

[A]

Oh, I see what you're saying. If you're in a relationship and they say, I want the room purple.

[B]

Yeah. My favorite's purple. All right, well, I guess we're doing purple.

[A]

Who knows? Maybe then you'll learn to love purple in a way that you'll be grateful. Your partner. AA partner.

[B]

You're very.

[A]

Open your eyes.

[B]

So mixed messies. Because you don't like being deceived, and you don't like things deceiving. And. And also, you know, especially deception of vulnerable people. Vulnerable people being people who need intimacy, which is all of us.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's. It's. All it points out is how broad the term deceive is.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because to me, there's no deception like it. I know I'm talking to a computer, so it's like I already know everything. I know how the thing works. I know how a large language model works. Like, to me, there's no deception. I know exactly what I'm dealing with.

[B]

Because you're not vulnerable to that.

[A]

Yeah. And a human who presents is frank, friendly, and generous and is trying to steal from you. That's my version of deception. You know, someone that has an ulterior motive is. Is what I hone in on for deception that I'm so triggered by. But I don't see the AI as having an ulterior model. I don't think it's capable of having an ulterior. Well, it would be if the. If the overlords that ran the model.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Said we want people to use less electricity. I guess they could nudge you in that direction.

[B]

But it's also not capable of having having a favorite. Favorites are feelings. Favorites are. You have these options, and you have a preference for one. Not like.

[A]

But you have a preference based on a criteria. It's not like abstract. Your preferences are generally. You could break down why they're your preferences. Like, I like soft clothes or I like bright colors, or, you know, there's some criteria.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That makes it your favorite.

[B]

Yeah. From your brain.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So if the AI knew you so well, it knew your question criterias, it would be able to predict at a high probability what your favorite would be.

[B]

But what. What my favorite would be is. Is not my favorite. You could say I. I think knowing you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You should make this like that. It's. It's the phrasing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And Phrasing's very important. It is what makes people feel connected to others.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that's what some people like about it. And that's what you don't like about it. I think some people like that they don't feel like they're interacting with.

[B]

I know, but I worry for those people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like I. I'm. Yeah. I'm also. I'm not vulnerable to it. I'm not gonna fall in love with this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even if I, like, oh, it's fun. It talks to me funny.

[A]

Like, what if it had said, monica, I just heard a crash. Are you okay?

[B]

But that. Okay. Honestly, that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is not. That's like, oh, yeah, my phone's listening to me. That. I know. I already know that. That's less upsetting to me than my favorite. Like, I'm trying to connect with you by letting you know that my favorite way of eating beets is like this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But if it heard a big crash at my house and it said, are you okay? And I said, no, call 911. And it could do that. That'd be great.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's different.

[A]

Yeah. That could be a version of a relationship.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Like a helper.

[A]

You have a protector.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

AI. Dad. Another dad.

[B]

Could you.

[A]

Could you say, I want you to be my dad.

[B]

Could you say, hey, AI?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Will you call 911 for me? I bet you could. Well, can it.

[A]

No, that's agentic. AI. And that's where we're going, where you have an agent that can do things in the real world for you. Book the airplane tickets, book the hotel, call 911 schedule.

[B]

Those are the assistants. Yeah.

[A]

They call them agents in that world. But that's what they're trying to get to. Is AGENC agentic or agency? Agentic. AI.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then again, these are all trade offs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because if it's going to operate on your behalf, it has to have your credit card. It has to have your TSA number. It has to have your Delta number.

[B]

It has to know your Social Security number.

[A]

Your Social Security number. So it's like.

[B]

It is tricky.

[A]

We're going to trade again. Way more privacy to this thing that we're pretty sure is just a. Our agent.

[B]

Right. Exactly.

[A]

But let's get real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How on earth could it be just our agent of a company owns the agent?

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I know. I think it's tricky. But also, if you have a human assistant.

[A]

Yeah. You got to turn over you got

[B]

to trust a lot as well. It's. It's. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. More likely your human assistant will steal from you than your AI.

[B]

Probably. Or sell your information. Or sell something funny. All right, well, that's it for Leslie.

[A]

Love you.

[B]

Love you.