Lukas Gage

Summary

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Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Episode Title: Lukas Gage
Release Date: July 6, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This rich, free-flowing episode centers on actor Lukas Gage’s journey: from his notorious viral Zoom audition video and high-profile roles (like The White Lotus and Euphoria) to his deeply personal struggles with childhood trauma, addiction, sexual identity, and mental health. The conversation explores the challenges—and sometimes absurdities—of the entertainment industry, the complex dance of vulnerability and public perception, and the evolution of Lukas’s self-understanding, especially around his borderline personality disorder (BPD) diagnosis and whirlwind marriage (documented on the Kardashians). Dax, Monica, and Lukas mix humor with profound honesty for a raw, revealing look at “the messiness of being human.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Awkward Encounters and Saving "Podcast Gold"

• The trio begins by recounting a mutual awkwardness at a party, with both Lukas and Dax avoiding conversation to “save it for the podcast” ([03:07–04:23]).

  "I gotta get the fuck away from this guy immediately. Cause I don't want to talk to you… I didn't want to blow our wall."
  — Dax ([03:30])

• This neurotic social dance extends even to big names (like David Letterman), highlighting the self-consciousness of performers.

2. Q&A Mayhem with Conor McGregor & Celebrity Surrealism

• They reminisce about a notorious Road House Q&A, where Lukas was starstruck and thrown into chaos by Conor McGregor's unpredictability and intensity ([06:22–12:14]).

  "I just remember being next to Post Malone, Jake Gyllenhaal, and Conor McGregor and being like, what the am I doing here? I don't belong here."
  — Lukas ([07:07])

• Dax and Monica note the tension and relief in managing the event’s unpredictability (“…security stops me. The bathroom’s blocked off. But then it’s him in there...” — Dax, [08:10]).
• Conor’s presence shifted the dynamic: “At first, everyone in the cast assumed, oh, people probably tried to fuck with him. That guy's here to protect Connor. And then it started occurring… oh, no, that guy's here to protect us.”
  — Dax ([12:26])

3. Traumatic Adolescence: Bullying, Assault, and Behavioral Rebellion

• Lukas shares surviving a brutal attack at 18 while defending a gay friend, resulting in broken teeth and facial reconstruction ([14:20–16:17]).
• He discusses growing up with three older brothers, a tough family dynamic, and his mother’s resilience through tragedy and legal troubles ([17:06–18:00]).

  "I think I was her favorite mistake. I don’t think I was supposed to be born."
  — Lukas ([17:59])

• Lukas describes his years as a “nightmare kid,” substance use starting early, and being forcibly sent to wilderness camp:

  "I get Paris Hiltoned. I get kidnapped in the middle of the night and sent to a wilderness camp."
  ([24:07])

4. The Reality and Impact of “Wilderness Therapy”

• The group dives into the complexities of wilderness camps for troubled youth—the intentions vs the outcomes ([24:13–28:13]):

  "Did it have any positive impact on your behavior?"
  "No. I did the complete opposite. I rebelled twice as hard.”
  — Dax & Lukas ([27:52])

• Lukas’ narrative mirrors themes of survival, resilience, skepticism, and the cost of “tough love.”

5. Childhood Sexual Abuse & Internalized Shame

• Both Dax and Lukas discuss their experiences with childhood sexual abuse, the guilt and conflicted feelings, and how hearing others speak about it publicly (particularly Dax’s candidness) has been cathartic ([28:29–31:29]).

  "No matter how many times people can say that you felt like you were an active participant… to look back at little Dax and little Lucas and be like, yeah, but of course you did."
  — Lukas ([30:20])

6. Sexuality, Secrets, and Coming Out

• Lukas delves into the complexity of exploring sexuality amidst trauma and societal expectations ([37:25–44:22]):
  • Hid acting and sexual orientation due to fears of being outed and industry typecasting:

    "I was hiding, like, doing plays and stuff… because it’s gay. Yeah, you were. Obviously, you had a real secret."
    — Lukas & Dax ([37:37])

  • Discusses the “bi now, gay later” phenomenon:

    “We only right, Bi now, gay later. That's like a saying from the 90s…”
    — Dax ([40:27])

  • The pressure of Hollywood and online speculation around his sexuality ("You’re taking gay roles and you’re straight.” — Lukas [47:00])

7. Viral Audition, Public Perception, and Fame’s Whiplash

• The infamous Zoom audition story: a director’s offhand insult about Lukas’s “tiny apartment” went viral after Lukas posted the exchange ([49:00–51:20]):

  "I was like, I know that it’s a shitty apartment, but if you get me this job, I’ll get a better apartment."
  — Lukas ([50:04])

• The resulting fame was whiplash—one minute a hero for actors, the next accused of manipulating the situation ([51:27–52:20]).
• The crew discusses how fleeting and unstable public validation can be, and how easily social media can weaponize narratives.

8. Mental Health: Borderline Personality & Mania

• Lukas recounts intense emotional struggles, diagnosis with BPD, overmedication, and the subsequent impact on his self-perception ([59:54–61:08]):

  "I go to this place, they put me on the most insane cocktail medications … diagnosed I have borderline personality disorder.”
  — Lukas ([60:06])

• The whirlwind marriage (broadcast on Kardashians) happened during a period of instability and search for love:

  "Every date is a string quartet.... When he proposed really early on, I said yeah... Less than a couple weeks."
  — Lukas ([61:21])

9. Addiction, Love, and the Search for Meaning

• Parallels are drawn between substance use, love addiction, and obsession with external validation:

  "I lost the other stuff and became addicted to sex and love."
  — Lukas ([65:01]) "It's the best. … Keeps working until it doesn't."
  — Dax ([64:56])

• Despite being surrounded by friends and genuine love, Lukas describes feeling unable to fully accept it or feel “high” from it ([68:29]):

  “I wanted love. I couldn't accept it.”
  — Lukas

10. Owning the Narrative & Mental Health Recovery

• Lukas discusses the vulnerability in writing his memoir (I Wrote This For Attention) and being open about his "labels" in a judgmental industry ([71:41–72:41]).

  "If we can’t be honest and we can’t be authentic, what do we have?"
  — Lukas ([72:15])

• Describes learning to identify and manage “splitting” (BPD symptom—idolizing and then devaluing people), and how dialectical behavioral therapy helped in self-regulation ([79:20–81:36]):

  “Am I splitting or do they just care about me?... I can check myself within, like, 30 seconds and be like, I’m so sorry. I was doing that thing...”
  — Lukas ([80:12])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Once-in-a-Lifetime Experiences:

  "You're gonna be on your deathbed one day ... you’ll be like, I’m so glad I got married on the Kardashians. Like, fuck it, man. It’s one trip on planet Earth."
  — Dax ([58:24])

• On Processing Pain with Humor:

  “I, like, laugh about the most fucked up shit and cover it up with a smile … My go-to was make a joke about it being like, how could I not have been molested? Or I was like a slutty little 10-year-old.”
  — Lukas ([14:35]; [31:02])

• On Healing Through Shared Stories:

  “The one that I hated the most was the thing that I love the most now was the DBT groups.”
  — Lukas ([80:58])

• On The Labels We Carry:

  “Now I’m a gay actor with a personality disorder. Holy shit.”
  — Lukas ([71:41])

• On Fame and Internet Cycles:

  “When that video happened, I was like a champion for actors … And then a month later … I was the kid who conned a video with a director to get sympathy to get on White Lotus.”
  — Lukas ([51:27])

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Important Timestamps

• 00:03–00:38 — Intro, Lukas's filmography and memoir plug
• 03:07–04:23 — Neurotic party encounter and “saving the goods” for the podcast
• 06:22–12:14 — Unruly Road House Q&A with Conor McGregor, wild Hollywood moments
• 14:20–16:17 — Surviving assault, fake teeth, and trauma
• 17:06–18:00 — Lukas’s family structure, loss, and “favorite mistake” origin
• 24:07–28:13 — Getting “Paris Hiltoned” to wilderness camp, rebellion, survival
• 28:29–31:29 — Shared experience of childhood molestation, internal conflict
• 37:25–44:22 — Secret acting, navigating Hollywood as a closeted actor, coming out
• 49:00–51:20 — Viral audition story, public perception
• 59:54–61:08 — Onset depression, BPD diagnosis, overmedication, and mania
• 64:56–65:07 — Realization of love/sex as new addiction
• 68:29–69:44 — Loving friends, but feeling unable to “feel” it; unquenchable search
• 71:41–72:41 — Memoir writing and talking about BPD/gay identity
• 79:20–81:36 — Growth with DBT, managing “splitting,” group therapy
• 88:09–90:52 — Voicemails for Isabel (Netflix film) praised for being a fresh, honest romcom

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Tone & Language

• Candid, darkly humorous, and self-effacing; the hosts and guest oscillate between serious trauma, mental health discussion, and genuine laughs
• Highly conversational, marked by supportive “me too” moments, industry in-jokes, and vulnerable admissions
• Lively, concerned with de-stigmatizing mental health, addiction, and recovery

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Takeaway

For listeners, this episode is a masterclass in honesty and self-examination. Lukas Gage’s willingness to “own his mess” offers raw insight into trauma, addiction, sexual identity, and the fickle nature of fame. The conversation—full of memorable Hollywood stories, emotional recovery, and room for dark humor—will resonate deeply with anyone interested in the human condition, mental health, or the behind-the-scenes realities of Hollywood.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome, welcome. Welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

We have an actor with an incredible story and we're blessed with his memoir, which is. I wrote this for attention. Today we have Lucas Gay John and you know, wild story, right?

[B]

Really wild. And he was very open with us and it was really lovely.

[A]

Yes. Incredibly vulnerable. He was in the White Lotus Euphoria. You Fargo Smile two. And he has a new movie movie out now on Netflix. Voicemail for Isabel.

[B]

Great movie.

[A]

Great movie.

[B]

Say that. Great movie.

[A]

Great. Please enjoy. Lucas Gage. We get support from quints.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, I've been wearing them a suspicious amount. Yeah. European linen ones. They're 34 bucks, which is genuinely insane for how nice they are.

[B]

It doesn't even make sense.

[A]

Well, here's the deal. They work directly with the factories, cut out all the middlemen. So you're paying for the actual quality. Quality and not some brand's marketing budget. Everything's 50 to 80% less than comparable stuff. I love it because it's all very classic and traditional and I know I'm going to be able to keep it for a very long time. And the quality's off the charts.

[B]

That's true. The style is very consistent. Whatever you get there, you walk down the street, you're going to look good. They have these lightweight cotton sweaters, which I love, for when it cools down at night. It's nice. Drape around your shoulders in the summer and then throw it on when it gets a little cool. And it's not just clothes. They do home stuff. Ding, ding, ding. Travel stuff, everyday essentials. It's all the same model quality without the markup.

[A]

Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.comdax for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.comdax for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comdax this episode is brought to you by American Beverage. We've probably all had that moment where someone says something about an ingredient in your drink and you're like, should I be worried about that? And then you look it up and immediately end up in the wildest corners of the Internet with completely contradicting information. All I want is clear, transparent information. And I bet you do, too. That's why American Beverage launched. Good to know. It's a site where you can look up over 140 common beverage ingredients. What they are, how they're used, how they've been reviewed for safety. They no spin or judgment, just facts. You can decide for yourself. Visit goodtofacts.org for more information. Hey, Monica.

[C]

How are you?

[A]

You smell really good.

[D]

Do I smell good?

[B]

Yeah, you do. You do.

[D]

Was I so weird to you at that barbecue on Sunday? Oh, no.

[A]

Let's start with me apologizing to you.

[D]

No, I apologize. I feel okay.

[A]

No.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Pull your microphone.

[B]

Let's start. This is already exciting.

[A]

Yeah. So you and I were both at a party on Sunday. Thank you.

[B]

Do you wanna out who it was? We love him.

[A]

Oh, Phineas. Okay. We were having Finneas party.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were there and we said hi to each other. And you said, oh, I'm doing the show this week. And I said, I know, I'm really excited.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I was like, I gotta get the fuck away from this guy immediately. Cause I don't want to talk to you.

[D]

That's what I felt.

[A]

Discover a bunch of fun stuff about you and then have to replicate that today. And then I left the party. I was even talking to Ryan. Do you know Ryan Hansen? Do you know that?

[D]

I know. I know who he is. But I saw you with him. Yeah.

[A]

We then were together the rest of the day and I was just. The whole day I was like, I'm so worried that Lucas thinks I'm a dick. But I just was so like, I don't want to blow our wall.

[B]

I'm really glad you made that move because then, yeah, this whole episode would have just been repeat.

[D]

That's what I felt, though. I was spiraling that I felt like I was being a dick to you.

[A]

Oh, no. You talked to Kristen a bunch, right?

[D]

Yeah, Kristen was great. She was so lovely. And I was like, I need to like, make up for being so weird about, like, I was holding a taco. And I didn't shake your hand because I'll go in my hand.

[A]

I didn't notice any of that.

[D]

I was hyper aware that I didn't want to blow my load before our podcast. And then I realized it was very mutual.

[A]

Okay, good.

[D]

I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm so.

[A]

I was neurotic about the fact that you're like, what a d. Like, hey, I'm doing your show this week. And I'm like, cool, see you later.

[D]

That's what it felt like.

[B]

No one wanted to just say, like, we shouldn't talk. Cause we're gonna have to save it. Everyone felt I probably should have just said that.

[A]

I don't even know that I connected what my impulse was until after the fact.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, I don't even know if in that moment I knew.

[D]

I don't think I did either. Yeah, Yeah. I thought about it later. I was like, maybe that's why I was so awkward with him, because I was so aware. And I feel like I have this weird, parasocial relationship with you guys. Cause I listened to your podcast.

[A]

Oh, you have. So nice. Oh, we.

[B]

Oh, that's so funny.

[D]

But it's that weird kind of balancing act of, like, do I talk to them before? Do I tell them that I'm. I don't know.

[B]

I love that.

[D]

But I'm glad we had the same experience.

[A]

Yes. And you know what's really funny, Lucas, is that we've had guests arrive, like, really early, and they've been neurotic about not wanting to talk to me. And I have said to them, don't worry. We'll have plenty. Like, you don't need to worry about blowing. Even Letterman kept going like, oh, let's get inside.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, he is, like, Letterman was, like, worried we were going to blow stuff.

[B]

Well, he's the master of conversation, so he knows.

[D]

Knows. Yeah, he knows. Yeah.

[A]

But also, it's Dave Letterman. I bet we'll be fine.

[D]

Yeah, that's nice to know. Even he has those anxieties, too. That's nice.

[A]

Isn't it comforting?

[D]

That is comforting. Yeah.

[A]

All of us are terribly insecure.

[D]

So insecure. Well, your wife made me feel a lot better about it. I talked to her about my insecurity about it.

[A]

She told me that she had a very nice chat with you.

[D]

She was lovely.

[A]

Yeah. And I think she told me, she said, like, oh, well, don't worry, Dex. We'll make sure you're fine.

[D]

Right?

[A]

Say that, and I will.

[D]

She was very sweet. And then she was, like, crocheting the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life.

[B]

Oh, I know. She's making, like. Like a bandana thing. Point.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

She's, like, really intricate, though.

[A]

No, she'll also do that, like, on a roller coaster. Right. There's no place she won't be obsessed. Yeah. She could be on the back of a motorcycle and she would make one.

[B]

I really want one.

[A]

You want to learn?

[B]

No, I want her to make me one.

[A]

Okay. But we also met in Austin.

[D]

I'll never forget it.

[A]

Okay, tell me first.

[D]

I'll say, I've never seen someone be so composed at a Q and A. As you were. You blew my mind. It was the most nuts Q and A of all time.

[B]

What was it? What was the.

[A]

It was the Conor McGregor thing. You were there for Road House. Were you in the audience?

[B]

Yes, I was in the audience.

[D]

That was a crazy premiere. People were just wasted in that.

[A]

Please give me your perspective, because Monica and I have ours. We were there, we experienced it. But please give me your perspective, and we'll both be running the risk of getting beat up by Conor McGregor.

[D]

I already got in trouble for saying that. He fucked my back up and he got mad at me. I meant it in a loving way. I was glad that he beat me up on set. I was like, that's so cool. I love that. Could say Conor McGregor, like, fractured my disc.

[A]

You're in a list of very tough people.

[D]

Totally. No, I felt really cool, and I. I meant it as a compliment. I just remember being next to Post Malone, Jake gyllenhaal, and Conor McGregor and being like, what the am I doing here? I don't belong here. And I remember you were so sweet. Maybe you're just a good person, but I think you could feel how nervous I was. And you said something about, guys, have you seen Fargo? This kid's really good at acting. It was so.

[A]

You are. You are spectacular. Do you remember the goofy, golfing, dorky husband?

[B]

Oh, I know, I know. So good.

[D]

Thank you, guys.

[A]

You're just like. Every time the guy talked, you're like, oh, dude, I would hang out and.

[B]

That was such a good season.

[D]

Yeah, it was a great season.

[A]

That was the best.

[D]

It was so good.

[A]

That was a good season.

[D]

Thank you, though. But you were so sweet. And I just remember being completely in over my head.

[A]

I was in over my head as well.

[D]

I couldn't tell. You were so composed. I don't know how you pulled it off.

[A]

Well, to set the context, so we got invited to, after a screening of Road House Q and A with the cast. And then I said I would do that if we could interview Connor.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So we had done that earlier in the day.

[B]

Connor and Jake together.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

We did have a really sweet moment at the end of that interview where I was encouraging him to embrace the kid who got beat up, who then pursued this because he had been humiliated. And remember that boy? And let the other boys know that it's okay to be that boy. Right. I just begged him. I'm like, so many dudes, look at you as the apex of masculinity. You have a great opportunity. I just urge you to share the vulnerable stuff. And he, like, connected with that he also started drinking in the interview. And it was pretty early in the day, and I just was more like, wow, this is going to be fascinating to see how he. How he manages his day. He's got a lot of day ahead of him. I know he's got a lot of press. And then we've got this screening. So we go off and off and have some barbecue and we do whatever, and. And then we go to the. The Q and A. Or rather we go to the movie at night. And then I have this whole thing where I try to go in the bathroom. Security stops me. The bathroom's blocked off. But then it's him in there. And then he lets me in, says, I know that was like, just stage one of, like this. And then we were seated one row behind him, and I was just staring at him the whole screening. Right.

[B]

He also travels with a crew.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So many people. And everyone was having a lot of fun.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

He has his own whiskey. Right. So he's drinking a fifth. What I did notice at one point, I'm watching him drink whiskey and pour glasses for people. And then I noticed the bottle's gone. Right. And I watched him open the top. So I was like, okay, a fifth of whiskey has been drank during this premiere. New bottle comes out. I'm watching some other stuff that I'll say I'll get sued for, but I'm making some assessments about what all is going on.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

By the time we get on that stage. And I think I even said to Monica, as I was walking up, I was like, well, let's see what this is going to be like. And then you felt like it. I was there like, you're in the mov. I have nothing to do with that movie. So I'm already dealing with that. Like, are people like, why is this guy doing this? He wasn't in the movie. Quite quickly, Connor takes charge.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's a live audience. And when I'm asking certain cast members questions, he's answering, I'm now like, how do we play this? I know what I would normally do, which is I would start making fun of this person gently who's on stage, and everyone's feeling this. And Also it's Conor McGregor and is he going to fucking kick my ass in front of everybody? Talk about the stakes being the highest. I think because you had the on stage component and then you have the, Is he going to beat me up if I make fun of him? And then I did start gently making fun of him. I said, to the woman in the cast. I was like, I'm going to ask you this question to Jessica. I remember Jessica. But Connor's going to answer.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And everyone starts dying laughing. And I'm literally like, is this the moment he turns and looks at me with that haunting look in his eyes that just comes after me. But he laughed. He liked it to him about it. And I'm like, okay, we got away with that one. And then it was just me trying to pepper in some jokes, acknowledging that we had all lost control of this Q and A because Connor was up there. The craziest thing that happened right afterwards was he had hugged me and he was trying to connect with me over that kind of moment we had had in the thing, which is beautiful.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But I also can't understand what he's saying because he has a very thick Irish accent. Maybe he was a little drunk. I'm having PTSD from all the times I've been around tough dudes who are too drunk to know they're repeating something, and then they catch you catching them, and then they want to fight.

[D]

Totally.

[A]

So I'm like, how am I navigating this? We're embracing. This is so stressful. And then, by the grace of God, his manager passed out.

[B]

I was about to say, I forgot about that.

[D]

He was the hospital. Right.

[B]

Funny. I thought about this two days ago. This is so sim and weird. It just popped in my head that that was scary.

[D]

Yeah, no, it was scary.

[B]

Someone, like, all of a sudden, someone

[A]

was having maybe a seizure in the audience. And then thank goodness that happened. Not for that poor person.

[B]

So I can't believe that was the end of that scene.

[A]

But Connor was like, what?

[B]

I know.

[A]

Like he was in rescue mode. And I was like, oh, my God. From the second he let go me, I rem remember just looking at my going, let's get the fuck out of this. Yeah, we gotta go, because I've not gotten beat up yet.

[B]

I was so scared. I was like, googling later, what happened to this guy?

[D]

Yeah, me too. And it was like dehydration or something.

[A]

I saw him at breakfast and he was fine.

[D]

Totally fine. The next day.

[A]

Yeah, completely.

[D]

He's like, it happens every time I go out, but I'm trying to remember

[A]

if it was you. I think, because that whole thing happened. Then the next day, a lot of guys were checking out from the movie, and I was out there checking out, and then I was chatting with some guys. I want to say, I think I was talking to you.

[D]

I think I was Talking to you. Yeah.

[A]

And someone on the set was telling me that what they figured out while making that movie was that he had arrived with a bodyguard. And at first, everyone in the cast assumed, oh, people probably tried to fuck with him. That guy's here to protect Connor. And then it started occurring to everyone throughout the shoot, oh, no, that guy's here to protect us.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Wow. What a way to go through the world.

[A]

I mean, wild experience. Yeah.

[D]

The most insane experience of all time. And then just throwing in Jake Gyllenhaal. Donnie Darko was my. As a kid. So I'm, like, just trying to keep it together and not fangirl over him and not get killed by Conor McGregor at the same time.

[B]

A lot to balance.

[D]

There's a lot. Jesus Christ.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So stressful.

[A]

And it's Doug Lyman, so it's also a wild director.

[D]

Everything changes every minute.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Was it that the craziest work experience you ever had?

[D]

The craziest I've ever had, but the best experience. And I remember Jake saw me getting a little, like, frustrated in the beginning and not knowing what to do and just holding on to my preparation too much and trying to be, like, the good student. And he was like, treat every take like a rehearsal. Nothing matters. Everything's gonna change. We're just rehearsing.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[D]

Kind of changed my whole. Whole mind. Then I was fine.

[A]

Okay, great.

[D]

Then I was good.

[A]

He's lovely.

[D]

He's great.

[A]

It's also a very machismo set. Right. It's like, all the guys are gonna be shirtless. We gotta be jacked, dude. Probably working out.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And then Connor's around. Everyone's fucking even more tripped out.

[D]

Yeah. It was like a fight camp in Dominican Republic.

[A]

Jesus Christ. I can only imagine how that experience would have gone for me at your age, were I in that movie and Connor was there. And then let's say I was drinking too. I wouldn't have got through the whole thing without somebody would have gone down for sure. I would be here with, like, an eye patch on, probably.

[B]

Speaking of, you have very nice teeth.

[D]

Oh, really? They're fake.

[C]

They are.

[D]

I got them knocked out.

[A]

How'd you get them knocked out?

[D]

I got jumped when I was 18.

[A]

What?

[D]

So I have all these scars on my face.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

It sounds very traumatic, yet you're smiling very large. It's because you're so happy to have gotten the teeth.

[D]

I love my fake teeth. I love my busted veneers. No, that's my go to. I, like, laugh about the most fucked up shit and cover it up with a smile and talk about the most mundane things as. It's very emotional for me for some reason, but yet I was at a party and got jumped. My friend got beat up for being gay and I think there was maybe some part of me that was subconsciously. I wasn't out or anything, but I was protecting him and myself, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And I jumped in and guys just beat the out of me.

[B]

Oh my.

[A]

How many guys. Is this a San Diego party?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Explain the dudes. Are they surfer dudes? Are they Glamis dudes?

[D]

They're like somewhere in between. They were like rich kids that were a little bro y and a little. A little maga vibes, I think. And. Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

Did you watch Veronica Mars?

[D]

Of course. They shot in Ocean.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Kind of Jason Doran's crew. It sounds like, like kind of rich perhaps.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

That was very much the vibe in San Diego. He just got beat up for being gay and the guy was wearing a pink tank top and called him a. And I was like, you're the. You're wearing a pink tank top.

[A]

Uh huh. That didn't go well.

[D]

That did not go well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh my God.

[D]

So yeah, five guys against me, like broke my teeth, broke my nose, broke my orbitals.

[B]

Oh my God.

[D]

That's why I have a very punchable face. No, I do, I do. It's okay.

[A]

You have a lovable face.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Were you in the hospital for this?

[D]

I was, yeah.

[B]

This is horrible.

[A]

For how many days?

[D]

Just like a day after it happened. And then I had to go back to put everything back together for a bit.

[A]

Okay. There was a little reconstruction.

[D]

There was a little reconstruction going. My nose was like completely really rough. Really rough. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

These guys go to jail.

[D]

I left this part out of the story. I threw the first punch after he got mad of me calling back even though he was already attacking the kid. And they got lawyers that said that technically it was self defense.

[B]

Oh my God.

[D]

I know. No one got faulted for. It was bullshit.

[A]

Yeah, it's like no fault accident. Everyone's like, oh, you don't like it?

[B]

No, because it's his fault.

[A]

How much older is Corey, your brother, than you? Is that his name?

[D]

Corey?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Corey's seven years older.

[A]

And when he found out about this, what was his reaction?

[D]

How did you know that though, by the way? You do your research?

[A]

Yeah, that's my job.

[B]

That's like he just scratched the surface. You wait, he Knows a lot about you.

[D]

He was in the army at that time and dealing with his own recovery, and I think he got kicked out of the army at the same time, and we were not in the best of speaking terms at that moment.

[A]

So he didn't go apeshit.

[D]

He would have if he was there.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah, he would have been. Big brother protective mode for sure.

[A]

Okay, so is it just you two?

[D]

I have three older brothers.

[A]

Three older brothers?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. What are the ages?

[D]

Corey's the second oldest.

[A]

He's the second.

[D]

Jesse's the oldest.

[A]

He's nine years. How much older?

[D]

No, he's like. My mom was 19 when she had him.

[C]

Oh, really?

[D]

And then that husband passed away.

[A]

May I ask how?

[D]

That's young to pass away in a motorcycle accident. Oh, my mom rode motorcycles together. And. Oh, yeah, it was bad. It was really bad. It was like a month before he was born. Yeah, it was gnarly. Yeah. So then years later, my mom was a badass and got in trouble for, like. Like, selling drugs. She needed a lawyer and met Corey's dad.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[D]

He ended up being an. They separated, and then she met me and my full brother Travis, his dad, and he's four years older than me. And you're the baby and I'm the baby.

[A]

Yeah, she called it after that.

[D]

I think I was her favorite mistake. I don't think I was supposed to be born.

[A]

Okay, and how long were your mom and dad together? How did they meet? What did he do for a living? I just know he's from New York.

[D]

Yeah, he was a genius. Went to Cornell at 14, skipped a bunch of grades. They met at a bar.

[A]

Oh, he's a underkin.

[D]

Yeah. He was next level smart and then met my mom at a bar in San Diego and I think was one of his first relationships ever. Like, at 28.

[A]

Okay, so he's kind of a geeky.

[D]

Totally. Yeah.

[A]

And your mother was wild.

[D]

Wild. Completely the opposite.

[A]

He just had to hang on for dear life.

[D]

Yeah, they worked out, I don't know, for a little bit.

[A]

How long were they together?

[D]

They were together for, I want to say, like eight years.

[A]

And what do you do for a living?

[D]

He was a doctor.

[A]

What kind?

[D]

He did a bunch. He was an anesthesiologist and then worked in pain management.

[A]

And you've lost track.

[D]

I lost touch with him. He left when I was a teenager. He got remarried and had kids and decided that was. Yeah, that was it.

[B]

You've already had a lot.

[D]

We're already five minutes in. Yeah.

[A]

A lot of Good stuff. Even since you've been on tv, he hasn't felt compelled to reach out.

[D]

He's reached out like once or twice since that like 10 year gap of not talking.

[A]

When I was your age, I was probably at apex issues with my dad.

[D]

Look, I think maybe there's time for things to change. And I think as I've gotten older, the anger I've had for him has dissipated and more until I guess an understanding of like, just like a different time that he was growing up and the way that he was showing love as a kid and the way that that was passed on. Like, I feel like you could only show the love or give the love that you were shown as a child, you know, so I can kind of have compassion for him.

[A]

Him because he was so brilliant in one category. Does he have deficits in others? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Socially?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. If he's 28 and he's meeting his first girlfriend, 100.

[B]

Yeah. And he was at Cornell at 14, he's probably not having the real experience.

[A]

Was he there with Ronan?

[D]

I love Ronan.

[A]

The Vanderkin.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So what was life like in Encinitas?

[D]

It was amazing. It was like Veronica Mars. We had surf PE at school. You did? Oh, yeah. We started school with surfing every day.

[A]

You wore shorts to school and pants. Ye tank tops? Yeah. Oh my God. That was allowed in my school.

[D]

Was it?

[B]

Shorts were definitely allowed.

[A]

Shorts are not allowed in school.

[B]

I guess they must have been in public school.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You're allowed to wear shorts. I don't remember, but they had to be two fingers thick also, like, why, like that's so stupid.

[A]

Well, cuz people's titties are hanging out.

[B]

I think the two straps help.

[A]

Well, it doesn't hurt. Spaghetti strap.

[B]

All right.

[A]

What about hats? Could you wear hats?

[B]

I don't think we were allowed to wear hats.

[A]

Yeah, they draw a hard line.

[D]

Why was it hat? Why is hats the thing?

[A]

I think it's a carryover from like it being rude to wear a hat indoors. From like the 30s. Somehow it's a sign of disrespect.

[B]

Do you think it's like a racism?

[A]

Not at my school.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[D]

Where'd you guys go to school?

[B]

I was in Georgia.

[A]

In Georgia.

[B]

Okay. So, you know, there's that Southern politeness. So that maybe is part of it.

[A]

We know about a restaurant where they didn't allow hats because they didn't want black customers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think she's graphing.

[B]

I'm saying maybe that has something to do with it.

[A]

I don't think it did.

[B]

I'll ask.

[A]

Because no student was like, what's the hat policy? Yeah, I'm not going to that one. You're going to whatever school in whatever district you're born in. You're not, like, shopping.

[D]

Where were you?

[A]

In a suburb of Detroit.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

And how did you do socially?

[D]

I was fine. I think I got by.

[A]

Middle school was rough. Right.

[D]

I had to change middle schools. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. What happened in middle school?

[D]

This kid. I stole my brother Corey's cigarettes and we smoked a cigarette. And then he told the whole school that, like, I tied him down and forced him to.

[A]

Forced him to smoke?

[D]

Yeah, that was the thing that they bullied me for. Oh, so funny.

[A]

Yeah, it's very abstract.

[D]

It's really abstract. But I think it turned a little gay. Like, I pinned him down and forced him to.

[A]

That was the subtext.

[D]

Yeah, that was the subtext.

[A]

We're calling this a smoking infraction, but it's a gay infraction.

[D]

It's a gay infraction for sure.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

So I just got completely tortured. And then I went to the new school in the new district and was like, I'm not gonna be fucked with. I'm gonna be the asshole.

[A]

You made a pivot.

[D]

And then I was like, the dick for a year.

[A]

Okay, so you were Jason Doring from also.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I think everyone in Orange county might

[D]

have been Jason Dorian's character at some point. Yeah, I think you have to be.

[A]

Can you tell me about the loneliness of that middle school when you're getting bullied in the self consciousness and you hear, like, the footsteps running and you're like, oh, fuck, is this fight for me? Do you have all that stuff?

[D]

I was terrorized and getting beat up every day and getting shot down with, like, BB Gu. It was what you think of when you see school bully stuff on TV where you're like, that doesn't happen.

[A]

And did you have any buddies that were like, I'm so sorry this is happening?

[D]

My brothers Corey and Travis, they were, like, having my back and being protective. They were my friends.

[A]

When does Corey start getting mixed up with drugs?

[D]

He started using heroin at 14.

[A]

At 14? How did that come into his purview?

[D]

I think just friends. Heroin was really popular in San Diego. Like, by the time I graduated, about eight people in my class had overdosed.

[C]

Really?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Wowzers. Do you attribute that to its proximity to Mexico?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, we would go to Tijuana and get drugs when we were kids and go at lunch and get tacos and Drugs and then go back to the table.

[A]

Yeah. I read that you would go at lunch to Tijuana. Yeah. That's crazy to me.

[B]

What? How far is it?

[D]

It was easier back then, too, to go back and forth through the border, but it's probably a 30 minute, 20 minute drive. And then you just park your car at the McDonald's and walk over and then walk back.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

Yeah. I had this girlfriend in high school who kind of like showed me the ropes and was iconic and was like, we're gonna go get all these stuff and I'm gonna come bring it back. And I guess maybe they knew where to go and where to get it, but I just remember it being so easy.

[B]

That is wild.

[A]

That's dangerous.

[B]

Yeah, very.

[A]

If I could have left my high school in a half an hour of buying, that would have been problematic. Would you drink at lunch?

[D]

Yeah. Everything okay? Everything. I got it all out of my system by the time I was 18.

[A]

But you go to your dad's house on Father's day when you're 13 to see him, you spend the night.

[D]

I can't believe this research. Holy shit.

[A]

And what happens?

[D]

I get Paris Hiltoned. I get kidnapped in the middle of the night and sent to a wilderness camp.

[A]

It sounds so nice when you call it a wilderness camp. So you had that full experience?

[D]

Yeah, I got fully kidnapped.

[A]

When it's happening, is your dad shouting, I arrange this. You're going to a wilderness camp. You're gonna be a great repeller when you're done with this.

[C]

Don't worry.

[B]

But do worry.

[D]

I think he couldn't even look at me. I think he couldn't look at me. And I remember calling out for his help and being like, this is your chance to make it right.

[A]

What were the behavioral things that had led up to that decision on their part?

[D]

I was a nightmare kid. I think. Not only was I starting to use substances at a really young age, I found out later that my mom, she was in cahoots with my dad about it. That was the biggest shock to me because I didn't think my mom would do that. But I think other than that, I mean, as a kid, I was crying out for attention, crying out for validation, screaming, fighting, biting. I literally bit kids all of elementary school.

[A]

You were a biter?

[D]

I was a biter.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[D]

So I definitely had behavioral problems.

[A]

You always hear people talking about the biter in their school, but you don't ever meet the biter. Would you see, like a little piece of a part of someone's Body and be like, yeah, I'm gonna fucking sink my teeth into that. Do you remember any premeditation or was it very impulsive?

[D]

No, it's not kikulated. I think it would be like, a kid would beat me on handball and, like, be mean to me about it, and then I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna fuck you up. And, like, push him and bite him.

[A]

Bite him.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I got rage. I would see red as a kid and I would go off and I got applauded for it too. My big brothers, they loved it. They would dare me. We loved Jackass growing up and all that stuff. So I'd get naked and go into, like, the Vaughns and scream, oh, my God. But they would videotape me on their skateboard, like, so I was rewarded for being a little shit obnoxious. That was the way I got attention. That was the way I got validation. That was the way I felt like they loved me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I feel bad because, like, I am judgmental of anyone who sends their kid to a wilderness camp. But also, I imagine being the parent, you're terrified, right? What do you do?

[A]

You're like, they're gonna die.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

100. I'm gonna walk in and I'm gonna go to wake them up for school, and they're gonna be dead. So whatever thing I'm gonna choose is gonna be less bad than that.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think my mom, too, being a single mom that was using heroin, I think she was just like, I cannot deal with another nightmare. We have to reform this kid, get him away.

[A]

And was Cory getting into legal trouble and medical issues? And so she was really at.

[D]

She was deep in it and, like, working and trying to keep her head above water. It was. It was crazy.

[A]

I think you have the thing I had right, which is like, dad. Laughs so Dad's the villain and mom's an angel.

[D]

No, I mean, my mom wasn't perfect either, but I love her and I ride for her no matter what, you know, like, she's a badass and took care of us and actually, yeah, I kind of. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Cuz you're like, oh, one stuck around. And you're like, thank God, one stuck around. I. I really owe this one. You know, once you realize it's an option to leave.

[D]

I was a mama's boy. I still am a mama's boy.

[A]

Yeah. That's lovely.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So what was the wilderness camp like? Also, I'm sure the literature that was shown to them, the pamphlet probably looked really constructive.

[D]

Oh, yeah, it was like orange Gro. Like, something really, like, happy and constructive. I remember them thinking it would be a good thing, and it was just chicken in a bag, rice in a bag. Here's your tent. Learn how to build it. Go hike for, like, 12 hours. Be alone. If I did something bad one day, like, I wrote an SOS letter and, like, sent it around and ran away in the middle of the night and, like, made it with, like, the arts and crafts. I crafted an SOS letter, and they put me in isolation in the middle of the mountain for, like, a day. They would do the classic thing where they knock you down to build you back up and think that their system is the right way to do it and just make you feel horrible about yourself.

[A]

Did it have any positive impact on your behavior?

[D]

No. I did the complete opposite. I rebelled twice as hard. When I came out, I was even more of a nightmare. I didn't trust anybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I fought with other kids. I don't know. It made me resilient, maybe.

[A]

Sure.

[D]

I think in all up things, but I don't even want to give them that.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, but, like, I guess every bad thing that has happened to me or every hardship I've gone through, I have learned something from it.

[A]

I think it's one more thing. You're like, well, I. I survived that thing.

[B]

Yeah. Proof of survival there.

[A]

I lived. And now I'm past that.

[D]

I don't subscribe to what they did. That was another common thing in my high school was, like, people went to juvie and rehabs and Utah, like, all these crazy places that were doing way worse. I was molested at a regular summer camp. Not at that camp.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Which you have really helped me with, by the way.

[A]

Have I?

[D]

Well, just the way that you talk about it. I've had a therapist tell me a hundred times, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. And when you talked, I think it was on Anna Kendrick's podcast or another podcast you talked about. No matter how many times people can say that you felt like you were an active participant. There was a curiosity there.

[A]

Yeah. There's so many culpability you're aware of. Mine was, I wanted this go kart. You know, Like, I knew I should not be there. I really wanted this go kart. I was being promised that I could buy it for a very suspicious.

[C]

Buy it.

[B]

You still had to buy it.

[D]

You still had to buy it.

[A]

Oh, you didn't even get it for free. No, no, no, no.

[B]

Such A bad deal.

[A]

This thing was worth like $500. Going to be able to buy it for 100. And I had a whole plan. I was going to mow this many grasses and way so sad. It's gruesome. But I got to tell you, man, I've had a new light shown on that whole experience. We had this expert who teaches at Johns Hopkins and she's ahead of this program that does nothing but study child sexual abuse. And she's like 70% of sexual abuses by other kids. And so although this dude was way older than me, he also wasn't 18. Now, I don't know. Like, I used to have this guilt of like, I should have turned him in. I don't know how many people people he with. But now after talking to her, I'm like, I don't know that he ever did. I don't know.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Like, it might have just been this weird thing. I don't know if he was a pedophile or what.

[D]

I get that. That your mind goes to like not being able to like put it together, piece it together, what it actually was.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I think for so long I felt like, well, I wanted it.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And like my therapist could be like, well, you're in your 20s and would you hook up with a 10 year old? And I'm like, no.

[B]

Right.

[D]

But it didn't matter. But when I heard you talk about that and the way that you. You had those conflicting thoughts about it because you wanted that thing and you were looking for that thing that you felt so much guilt and shame and to look back at little Dax and little Lucas and be like, yeah, but of course you did.

[A]

You want me to go cart? Yes, I did ignore my spidey senses 100. I violated my body telling me something. And also, yeah, I was like, little kid who wanted to go kart. And I can forgive that. I couldn't just pretend that I didn't get any signals. That was the part that was corrosive to me.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like I knew there was some part of me that played a role. Right.

[D]

That's what I felt.

[A]

Yeah. I think that's where the real guilt is. I think people miss it who it hasn't happened to.

[D]

I think so too. And I don't know if you did this. My go to was make a joke about it being like, how could I not have been molested? Or I was like a slutty little 10 year old. Like, that was my joke that I would go to until my.

[A]

You were irresistible.

[D]

I was Irresistible like, and my therapist, like, you have to stop doing this. You cannot use that as a coping mechanism. It's weird. Like, I could have a medical professional tell me it a hundred times, but hearing you talk about that in that interview, really, really, really, really. Oh, it's just resonated with me.

[A]

Really happy.

[D]

Yeah. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[A]

We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking that your keys are actually in your hand before you close the car door. Have you ever stood in a parking lot full of sun, staring at your keys, sitting right there on the seat four inches away and completely use you? It's a very specific kind of humbling. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an all state roadside plan. Today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club incorporated in Allstate affiliate. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

[B]

They never are.

[A]

To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp Help. So, Monica, here's something that really stuck with me. Better Help's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so.

[B]

That's a huge gap. Most of us agree therapy is a good thing, but there's still something holding some people back from actually going right.

[A]

And I think that's where just talking about it, normalizing it makes a difference.

[B]

I mean, as you know, I obsessed with Therapy. I've been in it consistently for years and years and years. And I have said this and I shouldn't say it, but I do think if you're struggling and you've been struggling for a while and you haven't sought therapy, I judge you a little bit.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, I know. And I'm not. And I gotta go to therapy to work on that, you know, but also there are options for you. You can help yourself. And betterhelp makes that first step easier. They match you with a licensed therapist based on your needs, and with over 30,000 therapists and 12 plus years of experience, they typically get the match right the first time.

[A]

Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with better help. Sign up and get 10 off at betterhelp.com Dax that's betterh E-L-P.com Dax this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace, and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do. Well, Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas. But he needed something to actually take all that and make, make it public facing. And Squarespace was that bridge. Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skillset, a body of work, and it's been private, it's been yours. But at some point you're ready to put it out there, and that transition from private to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step. Beautiful templates built in, SEO, email campaigns, scheduling analytics, everything you need to go from I've been working on this to here it is, come find it me. All in one place, no code, no stitching together, a bunch of different tools. So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might be it. Head to squarespace.comdax for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. It's funny you'd say that though, isn't it true? There's such a power in watching someone else process something that can get through to you. Or if it's being directed at me, it can't. I remember there was a moment where Monica was getting interviewed by a therapist or hypnotist and she was telling this story, and I had seen her tell it a million times, and the therapist said, I don't know why you're Smiling.

[B]

Yeah, it was Gabor, mate. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, it was Gab. Of course it was.

[B]

Yeah. He said, why are you smiling? He said, is it funny? And I was like, no. I mean, I was telling, like, a sad story or something. I don't remember what I was saying, but I said no. And then he was like, why are you smiling? And then it wasn't rhetorical. He was really asking. And I was like, I guess because I'm uncomfortable. And you really had to start, like, breaking it down. Breaking it down.

[D]

I was doing it. I did it earlier, too.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

Yeah, Right.

[D]

I get it.

[A]

I do it.

[B]

It's almost like you want the other. You're signaling, like, I'm good.

[D]

I'm good. Don't feel bad. I want to make you comfortable so you don't feel, like, uncomfortable with my weird.

[A]

With this awkward story. I'm telling you 100.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And being vulnerable, but not too vulnerable

[B]

so that you then feel uncomfortable.

[D]

Yeah. God, why do we do that?

[B]

I know. Well, we're still animals.

[A]

Resist, but be this way. And I'm apologetic that I am. And then I'm gonna try to make it as light as possible so we can all.

[B]

But you're saying when that happened, you

[A]

noticed when it happened to you.

[B]

Yeah. You realize you do it.

[A]

And someone wasn't challenging me on why I was smiling. Like, I might have got defensive with that question or made up some on the spot justification, but I just was watching my sweet friend smile at something that really didn't warrant smiling. And I thought, well, how sad on top of sad that that is happening. And then I was like, yeah, and I do that too.

[B]

Everyone does it.

[D]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

What age do you get fixated on acting?

[D]

Right after I got jumped, I did, like, little things as a kid, and I would hide it. You know, I did a warts commercial and then fucking kids found it in high school wars. Compound W, dude.

[B]

Oh, no.

[D]

Oh, my God. I tried to hide it from the whole.

[A]

Wait, hold on, hold on. Venereal war garbage kid.

[D]

I got that later in life. We all have it. No, it was the compound W for warts on your fingers.

[A]

Oh, rough.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you remember when you got the roll your pump? You're also like, this is career suicide for my high school.

[D]

Yeah, I remember feeling both of those things and just really trying to hide it. And I was hiding, like, doing plays and stuff and in the town over. Because it's gay.

[A]

Yeah, you were. Obviously, you had a real secret.

[D]

Yeah, a lot of secrets.

[A]

They're Corrosive. You said you have a cousin that came out gay and always knew and you. Some jealousy of that.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I guess that's interesting. It should be obvious. There's every version of everything on planet Earth. But I'm so used to hearing gay folks say, like, oh, yeah, I always knew. And I kind of am interested in the notion that it could be a slower burn.

[D]

I think, honestly, a lot of it, like, my first sexual experiences was. Sorry to talk about molestation so much, being molested by guys. So there was a lot of that wrapped up into it. So I really loved these girlfriends I had. I was, like, obsessed with them. I was obsessed with love. Love, yeah. From a very young age. And I was so happy to just, like, be sexual and be physical and be in love with these girls. And if any kind of thought like, that would go through my mind, I would justify it with like, well, I was molested, though.

[A]

That's like, yeah. Some residual trauma from that 100.

[D]

I don't know if I blacked out before that of having that awareness, but I really don't think I did. I really think that any kind of inkling or curiosity or suspicion of it was then being like, but you got molested. That's why, of course, you feel that way sometimes. But, like, you love your girlfriend. You love your girlfriend. And a part of me really did.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And a part of me said something on some podcasts where I piss people off. Or I said, like, I'm 10% straight or something. I think I said because, like, every once in a while, I do have sex with girls. I know I'm pretty damn gay, you know, Like, I'm pretty gay.

[A]

Do you watch English Teacher?

[D]

I've watched English Teacher, yeah.

[A]

I love it so much. I think it's the funniest show ever.

[D]

So funny.

[A]

But in the second season, he goes, and he's around either his sister or his female friend's fiance. And the guy is presenting is very, very gay, but he's saying he's bi. At some point, he confronts him. I don't know if you saw this scene. He's like, I don't know, man. You're reading very gay to me. Like, what percentage? And the guy's like, well, I'm 90% gay and 10% bi. And he goes, so you're 5% straight? Or whatever the math was.

[D]

Maybe that's where I got it from. And, like, literally it leaked into my interview.

[A]

But he doesn't further, well, if you're 10% guy, you're really

[B]

mad about that. That's so crazy. It's just like, everyone needs these boxes.

[A]

Like, yeah, you need someone.

[B]

Yeah, let's.

[D]

You do. Tell me.

[A]

I know someone like this. And it's all heartbreaking. This is all the byproduct of fucking being shit on and victimized. So it's like there is a period for some gay dudes where they feel like the easier, softer path is to say, I'm bi 100%. We only right Buy now, gay later. That's like a saying from the 90s, when kids would first come out as bi. And so. What a stupid buy now gay lady. Yeah, it's pretty good.

[D]

Kind of like it.

[A]

Yeah, it's solid.

[D]

Want to get it tattooed on me?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Lucas likes it.

[D]

I like it. Yeah?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[D]

You never heard that?

[A]

I've never heard that.

[D]

I've never heard it either.

[A]

I think because in the 90s, people were starting to really identify as bi. It was a very new thing. And then people were like, by now gay later. But. But for those people who had that specific thing where they were just gay, but they were pretending to be bi to lessen the blow to everyone around them, they then realized I was being dishonest with myself. I'm 100% gay. So they're hearing your story, and it's very easy for them to project. Oh, he's still trying to preserve. He's got 10% of a toehold in this shame, and that's why he's saying that. Yeah, I know, but that's not fair to anyone.

[D]

I mean. But maybe, though, I feel like there was a part of me that was preserving it. At first. When I first started experimenting guys, I got hooked up with my neighbor, but. But then after that, I was like, okay, I'm only going to go with couples. And it was a guy and a girl, and that will be less. You know, it's like addiction stuff.

[A]

I'm drinking beer and wine.

[D]

Totally. Definitely was.

[A]

Here's my fake roadblock. So it won't get worse.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

Compartmentalize it. Well, that's one other thing I wanted to talk about is San Diego is a real military town. Yeah. And I'm imagining that kind of compounds the masculine vibe a little bit. Like the hyper masculine vibe.

[D]

100%. There's a lot of that. It's a bro culture out there.

[A]

That's where the Navy SEALs are based, right?

[D]

Yeah. There's a lot of them going around, I think, especially when your dad leaves and you don't have, like, that Male figure in your household. I had a stepdad that was around for a little bit. But to look at that as what masculinity is as a teenager, and having that around you and being like, oh, I have to be that.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Is probably why I was such an asshole when I went to my new school is like, trying to emulate these Marines that were walking around my town. Because I'm like, this is what it means to be a man and to not be fucked with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, these guys are not getting. Being beat up in the hallway.

[D]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

They're on Grindr, though.

[A]

Yeah, they sure are. I see these depicted in movies, and it always breaks my heart. I think maybe the saddest thing that can happen to young gay boys is they end up having a secret relationship, and then, like, the toxic nature of the secrecy ends up being so cruel to one another because they're both hiding. And that seems to me to be the heartbreakingest part. Like, you can't even have the beautiful, fun, loving flame. Did you have any of those situations?

[D]

100%. I was super in love with my neighbor. The first guy I'd ever been with was with him for three years, hiding it for a year from everybody, and it was tearing him down that I had to. Finally, it was after a Little Mermaid audition that I came out to everybody.

[B]

That's a good time to do it.

[D]

Great time to do it. Right. I started crying in the auditions. They're like, tell us the secret that you have. And I realized that this secret that was so fun at first and made it so hot. I think it's really sexy to have a secret until it's not. Until it just, like, eats you when it's your identity.

[A]

Did you want to be out loud about it and you didn't? Yeah, he did.

[D]

He did. And he was. He was really kind and really considerate and buried. Like, when you're ready, it's whatever. But then I think after a year, he was like, dude, come on, you gotta come clean.

[A]

Yeah. Was the pressure compounded by all these older brothers? I can't imagine that would help.

[D]

I gotta give it to my brothers. They were pretty cool and pretty artsy. Even though they beat me up, there was still, like, that side of them that didn't give a shit about that. But if I'm being honest, I think a lot of it came from Hollywood and the industry of being like, do not come out because you're only going to play gay. You're only going to be seen as the gay guy.

[A]

And that was true.

[D]

It was, I think, still a little bit true. I think it's definitely still. I mean, look, we have, like, Jonathan Bailey now who's everyone's in love with. Rightfully so. But, like, there is still resistance met with, like, can Lucas play a leading guy? You know?

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting. I know a very, very famous, adored male actor who I know is gay, and I've never heard him say it in public. And he plays a lot of sexy hetero dudes. And I do wonder, like, is he not telling anyone because of that? And then also, if people knew, would that impact. You never know. Like, I don't know when that time has come. I remember when Anne Heche was in the movie with Harrison Ford and she had just come out and people were. Were like, what? How am I going to buy into that? She's in love with Harrison, but forget the age game, right? That wasn't our issue.

[D]

Who cares about that?

[A]

That's fine. He's how old?

[B]

Normal.

[A]

30 years. That makes sense. But what about her being lesbian? I guess that's the only thing. Like, I don't love the idea that people can't play other people.

[D]

I hate it.

[A]

That's the only time I was ever defensive of it is I was like, when straight dudes were getting cast as famous gay characters, I was like, well, y', all, if you're not going to give them the straight roles, you cannot take the gay role.

[D]

There's going to be none left that did.

[A]

Uniquely unfair.

[D]

Yeah, I agree with you on that part. I did feel that way, but with every other scenario, I get really territorial and defensive of people when they come for them.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

I think it's bullshit.

[A]

Let's go through the timeline of. Of starting to work. What age were you?

[D]

I think I was like 20 or 21 when I did American Vandal. That was good. It was a recurring role on a Netflix show that people liked. And then I did this kid show with Claudia actually, at the same time or the year before that. That's where I met. Claudia's one of the best people of all time. Yeah, we love her so much. And then I think it was a year or two after that. I must have been 22, 23. I reach out to Sam Levinson because I saw Another Happy Day. It reminded me of my family. I wrote this long letter. He says that he's doing this movie in New Orleans right. Right now. And I, like, convince a New Orleans agent I lie to them and say I live In New Orleans.

[A]

Local hire.

[D]

Local hire.

[A]

Save a couple bucks for production.

[D]

I meet him, I lie, I get on a plane, I work with him, and then a year later, he put me in euphoria. So that's where it really all.

[A]

Cuz the part of the story I really want to learn about. You were getting accused of queer baiting.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Why would you be accused?

[A]

Yeah. So they thought you were straight and actually acting. What did they think?

[D]

They were like, you're taking gay roles and you're straight.

[A]

There we go.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, but, but I love

[D]

Britney Spears and I'm making out with men.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It was. Obviously that's an online thing.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So when do you become aware of it?

[D]

Immediately. You're checking your Instagram and your Twitter and you're getting DMS all the time.

[A]

And what kind of things would people say?

[D]

Just like, you're a piece of. How dare you. You take. You know. And I'm just like reading them and at first it's funny and I'm like, God, you guys have no idea. And then it starts to really piss you off. I had this like viral tweet moment where someone said like, I hate him and I hate his face and I hate that he takes roles from gay people. And I wrote something, I think I was drunk when I wrote it, but I wrote like, you don't know my Alphabet or something like that. And then he's like, well, inform us. And then I just wrote, no with a horrible heart. And people liked it, I guess. And I think that they were like, good for him for not feeling like he has to disclaim what he is to some troll on the Internet again.

[A]

It's one of these things where you really can't ever win.

[D]

You can't ever win. Then the next year you get married to a guy on the Kardashians and then they fudgeing hate your guts. So it's just like, you cannot go

[A]

all the way with it.

[D]

That's too much.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

So how much was it affecting you and how did you decide to then be publicized about it? And was it motivated by that, like to shut these people up?

[D]

Maybe there was some defiance in me to be like, I'm going to push back and be so on your face about it. But then another part of me was in a weird area where I got manic and married a stranger after a couple weeks of knowing them.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Wait, what?

[B]

Okay, so we need to pause here.

[D]

That was a lot.

[A]

And again, this might be Fun for you. Because I know when I'm inside of crisis things, I just am convinced everyone knows about it. So one thing is, like, I didn't know about the viral moment. The director.

[C]

Oh, great.

[D]

I love.

[A]

I didn't know about that.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

And you didn't know about Ryan Hansen. He knows everything, of course. He's like, I'm interviewing him on Wednesday. I'm afraid to talk to him. I don't want to ruin it. He's like, oh, yeah. He had that, like, really cool thing where he posted. Well, you tell this.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What happened? I know you're sick of it. I'm just here to show you that truly, a lot of people have no clue until now.

[D]

I love that you guys don't know. I mean, it's great. Basically, it was like the first audition during COVID It was a zoom. Everyone turns their cameras off. It goes quiet. They're like, you ready to go? The director forgot to mute his microphone. So he's like, with his wife or somebody. He's like, oh, my God, look at this poor actor and this shitty apartment. I didn't say shitty apartment. This tiny apartment with a TV and a bed and a sofa in the same room as each other. And then I was just like, oh, your mic's still on really quick.

[A]

Yeah, that's a decision. You've made a choice. You're a real actor. Because you're like, I could have pretend I didn't hear this.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And he'll never know know. Or maybe he'll notice. He was.

[B]

How did you not say it, though?

[A]

But I think a lot of people would have just pretended it didn't happen.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So I love. Okay, so what did you say exactly?

[D]

I was like, I know that it's a shitty apartment, but if you get me this job, I'll get a better apartment.

[B]

Yeah, that's great.

[D]

And it was true. I love the apartment. It was a cute little studio apartment down the road. And then I made it as a part of, like, an improv of the scene. Like, I incorporated it, maybe I probably did it a little too much. I was like, yeah, you can come back to my tiny apartment. Apartment later. Like, I started using it, and then

[B]

if you hadn't called him out and then you did the audition and you said, tiny apartment in the audition, he would have.

[A]

His face would have caught on fire.

[B]

Yeah, that's the real move.

[D]

That was probably the smarter move. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so you got the role?

[D]

No, no, I didn't get the role,

[A]

but there's a happy ending.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

The next audition was White Lotus.

[A]

Come on. Hell yeah.

[B]

You got reward.

[D]

So if I got that one, I wouldn't have been done. White Lotus. And then after a night of fun during White Lotus, a couple months later, I decided to post the video.

[B]

Oh, cuz you had recorded it.

[D]

Well, we had to record it on our end.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[D]

We had to be like our cinematographer and our editor and this. And it was like so annoying.

[B]

Oh my God.

[D]

And so I posted it and woke up to a hundred calls and like 100,000 requests.

[A]

It's very viral.

[D]

It was really viral.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Ryan Hansen saw it. He knew the whole story. He loved it by the way. He's like, oh. The way he handled it was, was so cool.

[D]

When that video happened, I was like a champion for actors. Right? Or a month. And then the month later I was a liar. I was the kid who conned a video with a director to get sympathy to get on White Lotus.

[B]

Oh, that was the narrative.

[D]

That was the next narrative.

[A]

Wait, how could you have possibly manipulated the guy into talking about.

[D]

Also released a statement apologizing. I'm like, how? How could I pull this up? They're like, that's the greatest marketing move ever.

[A]

It's insane what people believe versus the real things they refuse to believe. I think the chasm between what's being ignored about objective reality and then embraced about fucking conspiracies is mind blowing.

[D]

No, it's insane. It really is just like the back and forth of people loving me and saying I'm a hero to being like, this guy is a fucking piece of shit and we hate him.

[A]

And the ride you're on. Yeah, it hijacks your dopamine system. Even if you're not prone to mania, it can put you there.

[D]

Oh yeah.

[A]

What was happening, like, emotionally? I heard you say, like, it really sucked. I had a moment as an actor. I had some pop, I was on some shit and then I kind of didn't have that. And then I had this moment as like, I don't know what you even

[D]

call that, like a public facing public.

[A]

And you said like, this feels like a 15 minutes of fame thing, which I don't like it probably. I was all so complicated. I would have loved being a hero for a month. Yeah, that would be all great.

[D]

But even that is like not the right messaging to give somebody. I think that can fuck you up too.

[A]

Yeah, it's fraudulent.

[D]

No one's real. None of this is fucking real. And it doesn't matter. But I think I was Just so narcissistic at that time and like so obsessed of what everyone was saying and so focused on myself.

[B]

Hard not to.

[D]

It's hard not to.

[A]

And then you're like, oh, Jesus, now I'm just famous for this thing. No one's ever going to take me seriously as an actor.

[D]

Well, it's like all that stuff takes precedent of all the hard work that I'd put in for a decade that I was really trying to focus on that. And suddenly it's just only the headline that people know you from.

[A]

So I rewatched a bunch of your scenes on White Lotus today. You're so great on that, dude. You're so great on it. You have like a real unique point of view as that character.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

Watching Jennifer Coolidge and Murray Bartlett and Molly Shannon on set, that's like the best comedy lesson. They are unreal. The coolest people ever. And we got so close on that show.

[A]

You guys were all living at that four seasons.

[D]

And we were living the four seasons during COVID During COVID no one lived there but us.

[A]

Oh, dude.

[B]

And like the expectation wasn't there yet.

[D]

We didn't know what it was gonna be.

[B]

Yeah, I was just like, oh, this fun show. But then it's the biggest show.

[D]

I just learned so much from them about. I think what I was talking about with Doug Liman too, actually, is like not going in with a plan and not being like, I'm a good student and I'm prepared. And look at like all the choices I made last night. That doesn't fucking matter. You're gonna find something better on the day that's fresh. The camera loves that. And so just watching them every take do something different, as, you know, a 25 year old green actor was like, oh, you can do that. You're allowed to go outside of this parameter. Try a bunch of shit. And it's okay if you eat shit because they won't use it. Yeah, maybe they will.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Well, you were protected by Mike White, who has an impeccable, amazing taste.

[B]

Yes, yes. Perfect.

[A]

Yeah. Did you hang with him a bit?

[D]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I love Mike. He's the best.

[A]

Yeah, he's a very fascinating dude.

[D]

The most fascinating smart guy I've ever met.

[A]

I think disarming too. You're like, hold on, that guy's the showrunner.

[D]

100%.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[D]

He hasn't figured out that's. I was just gonna say, I'm like, I want to like make a show, be a director or writer, go To Survivor in the Amazing Race and come back to hbo.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[D]

Like, that's so cool. Just does whatever the he wants to

[A]

do and go like, when do I most want to be in another country?

[D]

I'm gonna go to V. France.

[B]

Dreamy.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

Love these notes on me. Can I read them?

[C]

No.

[A]

Absolutely. Fuck this kid. No, I'm trying to think of something. Terra, why don't you want to do it?

[B]

I can tell this has happened a couple times that you expect people to think that you expect people to not like you or to have an idea about you.

[D]

Well, I think I go in, I humiliate myself or make fun of myself before they can beat me to the punch.

[B]

Yeah, it's your armor.

[D]

Yeah, I expect it, but it's not

[B]

happening happening over here.

[C]

Anyway.

[A]

I like you. I liked you when I met you in Austin. I have nothing but good feelings about you. Okay, Fargo, how do you get that role? Walk me through getting that role.

[D]

I was in London. I self taped myself for. I think every. I don't know if you experienced this as an actor where they would have you audition for the guy, they love you, but they're like, he's just not right. But we're going to bring him back for this one and then this one. Like that was the trajectory of every single euphoria. White Loaf, Lotus, Fargo, you. Every single time it's like they bring me in for something else and they don't know what to do with me.

[A]

But they're intrigued.

[D]

They're intrigued.

[A]

Yeah. That's great.

[D]

Yeah, there's something there. And I think that was another scenario where I was like, I love this show. I want to work with Noah Hawley. I'm just going to keep auditioning and keep sending tapes until he says yes.

[A]

And so that character was obviously written. You auditioned for that.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not like he had seen you trying all these other characters and they're like, oh, let's put him.

[D]

What? Actually, I think in that one, I think I tried out for like Joe Keery's role and another guy and I got close and then I think he was like, just give him that one.

[A]

Uhhuh. I think it was.

[D]

I think it was that situation on that one.

[A]

Oh my God. Are you great in that?

[B]

You're great.

[D]

Thank you.

[B]

Wait, did you say you a show on Netflix?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I don't remember.

[D]

I'm in the London season.

[B]

I love that one.

[D]

The American that gets peed on.

[A]

Oh, you got peed. The pink.

[D]

The piss fetish.

[A]

Tell me.

[B]

No I can't. I want to spoil it. I don't want to spoil it.

[A]

It's already been spoiled. He gets peed on.

[B]

Well, more is coming.

[A]

He got on as well.

[B]

What happens in that show? I got obsessed with that show, like, last year, I think. And every time I would come into the fact check, I was like, okay, so I'm watching you. A show on Netflix. Because it kept getting.

[A]

And I preferred that she said, I'm watching a show on Netflix. Called you. But she refused to do that. And she would always go, I'm watching you.

[D]

That happened a lot.

[A]

Erin Bergman. What's her name? Borg and birds.

[B]

Oh, oh, what's her name from Fox News?

[A]

Lauren Bergman.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

Laura Ingram. Laura Ingram. Laura Ingram. You've seen that clip, right? You. I don't have a show on. What? What are you talking about? So stupid. I'm on a show on Netflix. What Called you?

[C]

Called you.

[B]

It's worth diabetes.

[A]

Like, there was measles about.

[D]

Measles.

[B]

We didn't do a show on measles.

[A]

We didn't do a show on measles. Oh, my God.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[D]

That's so funny. Yeah, that clip. Okay.

[B]

Anyway, I love that show.

[A]

Okay, so you come off Fargo. Yeah. I want to know how we get to the mar. Marriage on the Kardashians, which is a spectacular thing to be. I know. I'm sure it's loaded.

[D]

The best IMDb credit, honestly.

[A]

You're gonna be on your deathbed one day, as we all will be, and I promise you, you're gonna be like, I'm so glad I got married on the Kardashians. Like, fuck it, man. It's one trip on planet Earth.

[D]

I think it's iconic. I think it's so funny. It's so stranger than fiction. If you wrote that down on a piece of paper like a script in my life, I would be like, there's no way that's gonna happen. Happen.

[B]

Well, what happened? I don't even know.

[A]

Yeah. So let's just talk about. You met Chris.

[D]

I met this dude. I met this guy.

[A]

Where were you at mentally when you met?

[D]

Not great.

[A]

Okay. What version of not great?

[D]

Long story short is I was in another relationship that had ended. I was devastated. Completely horrible. It screwed me up so bad that it's so embarrassing. I don't give a shit. I was crying on set, and they called my reps, and they were like, this kid keeps crying on set. Like, is he okay?

[A]

Fargo.

[D]

No, it was on you a Sean. No, it was on the show called Dead Boy Detectives that I was on. On Netflix. Yeah, it's better. Yeah. I was like in a cat prosthetic, crying.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, there's. You could have pointed a lot of fingers at that moment.

[D]

I mean, go on. I love that show, though.

[A]

It's the best show ever.

[D]

Best show ever.

[A]

But still, you're in a cat outfit. Okay.

[D]

The cat King. So I'm crying. Someone had called my people. My people were like, what is wrong with you? And then I started crying with them, and I was like, no one loves me. I'm going to die alone. This career doesn't matter. I was like, a real existential place of like, nothing matters and I just want to be in love. They were like, you need to go somewhere. So they made me check into a place. They wouldn't give me another audition.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Until I checked those very ethical reps

[B]

because they were like, you're depressed.

[D]

And then in this episode, I fired him. One of the biggest mistakes I ever made.

[A]

You can mend that.

[D]

There's chances.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, that's totally salvageable.

[D]

I go to this place, they put me on the most insane cocktail medications. They give me my diagnosis that I have borderline personality disorder.

[A]

How quick does it take them to determine that?

[D]

A couple weeks. And then I was fighting them on it. Still fight them on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

We'll get back to that.

[A]

Did you listen to our episode on Borderline Personality?

[D]

No, I need to listen to that one.

[B]

It's very interesting.

[A]

It's incredible. I'm so glad we did it. And we've run into people in real life. This waitress, Chris, came up to me and was like, you just can't imagine how much I appreciate that episode. Like, I battle this thing. And I was like, yeah, dude. It's like everything else. It's just one more thing that someone's, like, fucking contending with. It really shined a wonderful light on it all. Because if we were just like, ooh, bdp. It's scary.

[D]

Yeah, I have the same thing. I resisted it and I was like, we over pathologize everybody and just like, put this thing on them and that's who you are, and you have this albatross around your neck. So I fought with it a lot. And I have a lot of people in my life who would be like, you 100% have it. And I think especially that song on me in that period would be like, without a doubt.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

So they put me on these meds. Was not the right meds. They over medicated me and I was really not myself. I was straining my hair, changing all my clothes, just being manic.

[A]

I really was untethered.

[D]

Yeah. And I meet Chris. It's like this whirlwind romance. It's moving at the speed of light. Every date is a string quartet.

[A]

He's also gorgeous. I didn't know of him until today. Yeah, he's fucking gorgeous. He's got an accent. He's also dialed into the Kardashian world. That's fun. Especially. Especially if I'm 29. I'm like, this is very fun.

[D]

It was fun. And it was really that feeling that I was searching for so long or what I thought it was of, like being lovable and having someone that did these grand gestures of love. So when he proposed really early on, I said, yeah, and how quickly?

[A]

A couple months?

[D]

Less.

[A]

Okay, a couple hours.

[D]

No, couple weeks.

[A]

Couple weeks.

[B]

Couple weeks.

[A]

Is there any voice in your head going like, we know, know statistically the two week engagements generally, like, was there any rational things, poking holes?

[D]

There was some rationale going on in my brain, but I think I was so wounded from that last relationship and wanted to feel loved so bad and wanted to be like, it. It's bold to be in love. It's brave to be in love. Stop protecting your heart. Just go with it. But I think that there was a part of my head that was like, this is too fast.

[A]

And there's an illusion that marriage is a turnkey mooring of yourself to something. Like there is some idea that it's going to be st. Stability, but it's not at all stability, not at all.

[D]

And I've never had any model of a marriage that was shown to me that was stable in my life. So I had no idea what the that was.

[B]

And if you're manic, I mean, that's just like dopamine.

[A]

So I get you saying, yes, that makes total sense. This guy's a babe. He's got his own thing going. When is it proposed? Well, let's do this marriage on the Kardashian show.

[D]

So basically, I'd always talked about how I love shit. Shania Twain, we love us too. I mean, obsessed. I wrote in my journal as a kid, like, still the one is going to be my marriage song. Like, once I beat her on American Idol, like, I would just lie to my journal all the time and like, say, crazy, but I love Shania Twain. And so then a couple weeks after the proposal, he's like, we got to get married this weekend. I'm like, what? No, I Thought it was going to be like a long proposal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, just trust me on it.

[A]

Okay. Big surprise.

[D]

Big surprise.

[A]

And you're manic. You love surprises.

[D]

Love surprises. I'm like, let me jump out of an airplane. Let's go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Throw me out of a moving car.

[D]

Shania Twain was in Vegas that weekend. So Shania Twain performed at my wedding.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Hold on a second. I need more of the pieces. She's performing in Vegas?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You guys are gonna go to Vegas.

[D]

It was that week weekend. She had a show there and the

[A]

Kardashians were going to be there attending the show and filming.

[D]

No, Kim's his best friend and doing his hair. And she was our hookup with Shania. So they had planned this whole thing. And I go to Buffalo Bills, which is so weird. It's where I went every year as like an 1112 year old, 13 year old. As my birthday party. My mom loved to gamble. That was our treat was we take an RV and go to this place and I walk in and it's just Kim and Chris and Shania Twain.

[A]

Do you start?

[D]

Should I lose my sobbing? Yeah, Sobbing.

[A]

And how did she handle it? Probably pretty well.

[D]

She was great.

[B]

Yeah. Thoughtful. Is that buffalo?

[D]

It was really. Yeah, it was thoughtful. I think that was a coincidental thing, actually. She just was playing that night at Buffalo Bills. But maybe we'll go with it was thoughtful. Yeah, we'll go with. It was really thought out or so. No, but I mean, the fact that they pulled that off is insane. That literally was a dream come come true.

[A]

By the way, speaking as a love addict, like, I understand sex and love addiction. I get it.

[D]

100%.

[A]

It's the best.

[D]

Yeah. I lost the other stuff and became addicted to sex and love.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

100%. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's tasty. Keeps working until it doesn't. Then you're scared.

[D]

I keep gassing you guys up, but I really will say that this show was what made me go to slo. Really? Whoa.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

That's so nice.

[D]

Not to keep kissing your ass.

[B]

No, we'll take it. It. That's really amazing.

[A]

Oh, my Lord. Yeah, I think I'm going to.

[B]

What?

[A]

Retire?

[D]

No, you got to help more people. Yeah, you got to keep talking about this.

[A]

Why would my instinct be like, I should stop this. Wait, this. I did something that helped you. I should stop this.

[D]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[A]

Okay, so you meet her. That goes well. You cry. Did she hug you?

[D]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

She held me.

[D]

Kim is amazing.

[A]

She's great, right? Everyone loves Kim.

[D]

So generous. Planned this whole thing, paid for everything, took care of my family. We're dancing with Usher. It's like a fever dream of, like, what is happening? How is this my life?

[A]

Your mom came.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So she's having fun. And she's got to be nervous for you, is what.

[D]

Well, no, my whole family and all my friends were very nervous for me and very concerned for me while trying to be there for me and being like, he's happy, he's in love. Gotta be there for him.

[A]

He was very depressed three weeks ago.

[B]

But now, right after you got out of a facility.

[D]

Yeah, that's a lot. I think everyone was saying, maybe we should just slow the brakes down a little bit. And I was like, you?

[B]

Yeah, I'm in love.

[A]

You don't know.

[D]

No, you don't.

[A]

You know what real love is?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

This is where I can relate to. It's like, on some level, I have this story about me as an addict, which, like, I generally didn't put people out. Like, I pride myself on that.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I didn't owe a bunch of people money. I didn't steal from my friends.

[B]

You stole from.

[A]

From stealing. But I thought relatively, I had created less wreckage than a lot of the addicts I knew. But what I'm not wanting to acknowledge is, like, that moment that I'm putting everyone in all the time. It's just like, he seems like he's doing really good, but they know I missed my birthday party, like, a week ago.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Or I didn't show for Christmas. You underestimate the toll of that. Like, is he good?

[C]

He's good.

[D]

O, yeah.

[B]

It's a lot.

[D]

It's a lot. I actually had Claudia say to me at the barbecue we had the other day, like, I was really worried about you for a second. I was really worried we lost you for a minute.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. And just to hear, like, how concerned all my friends were that loved me

[A]

and adored me, what I would want for you is for you to hear, oh, yeah, you're very loved. But what I would hear is like, fuck, I'm such a piece of shit. I've made these people worry. Like, in the moment that I should be receiving the love, I would be

[D]

so flagellating for the first time in my life. I didn't go to that. I went to, like, God, I'm so lucky that I have these people who are my ride or dies, who have been through me when I was a shitty friend to Them and, like, went MIA and got married and didn't invite any of them. That's true. That wasn't really in charge of it. That's true. That's true. Thank you, Monica.

[B]

But also what's so sad about this is like you're doing. Doing all this to feel loved.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. But you are loved. You have all these people that are there that are like hardcore there for you, but you can't see that.

[D]

Yeah, well.

[A]

And it doesn't get you high. The real love doesn't get you high.

[B]

Exactly.

[D]

I think it's how I feel about attention and life with acting and stuff. It's like I wanted it so bad and then I got it and I didn't believe anyone and I couldn't accept it. I wanted love. I couldn't accept it.

[B]

It's sad.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We live all these paradoxes. Like, yeah, we want this thing. We're going to feel a certain way. When we get this thing, we get that thing. It doesn't feel right. We didn't earn it. We don't deserve it. And then I feel worse and you're like, well, what is the goddamn solution?

[D]

So fucking contradictory. Like, it doesn't make sense. But you're right. Like, I had it in front of me the whole time and I was just searching out there for something else.

[B]

We sabotage so much. Just as people in the search for this thing, you maybe let go of the real thing that's there, and then

[A]

there's just like, I don't know. You've always been a wild, obnoxious dude, and I was too. It's like the highs are high. You're chasing high highs. You know, other people aren't chasing that moment with Shania Twain 100%. And it's like, you know, you reap what you. So it's like, I like it hot and heavy. Let's. Yeah, and I'll pay the.

[D]

But then you get it and then you're like, what's next?

[A]

A low.

[B]

Low comes after a high stops working

[A]

as all drugs stop working.

[D]

You have the come down and then your witches drawing. And then you feel like, what am I going to fill it up with next? Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The only thing I didn't get out of this, when we start filming, the nuptials are on camera.

[D]

Yeah, I. That was a surprise. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Okay. You're right.

[D]

Okay. I thought I was going to be talking about the engagement on the phone and then.

[A]

Yeah, and then you were in front of a film crew.

[C]

True.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What was happening in Your body while you were left.

[D]

My body not there. Don't remember what happened. Blacked out and not even from drugs or alcohol. Just wasn't there.

[A]

I'll wake up when it's less intense. This seems a little overwhelming.

[D]

I remember I wrote my vows in my notes pad on my phone, and then I got up there and they all deleted in my pocket.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[D]

And this is the only memory I have.

[B]

Is like, a true nightmare, honestly.

[C]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

It's like my nightmare.

[A]

You be like, I got to wake up from this.

[D]

Yeah. Got to wake up, Wake up, wake up. And I texted my friend, my one friend Phoebe, who I write with, and I had her proofread it before I went up. And I said, don't make it obvious, but text me my vows right now. And I tried to, like, play it cool.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[D]

That I didn't have my vows. God, it's so crazy. You can't write this. It's so insane. It's pretty great, too. So funny. It's such a good chapter in the book of my life.

[A]

Like, so you wrote all this and I wrote this for attention.

[D]

My premature memoir.

[A]

No, I really like it. I like that you're like, I prefer when I've read memoirs of people who don't have it all figured out, and it's like, more midway through or whatever. We're on the journey. We're not reflecting on all the lessons we've learned, Which I like, too.

[D]

No, I don't care about that.

[A]

Let's just start with, I'm impressed you finished a memoir.

[D]

You do? Hardest thing I've ever done. Yeah.

[A]

So I've been writing one for four years now. And when you're doing a memoir where it's like, there's just stuff hovering that, you know, you're supposed to challenge, it's like, I can't get motivated to tackle this chapter. What were the hardest ones? Obviously, I would imagine you admitting the diagnosis would be really hard.

[D]

Yeah, that was really hard. It's like that liability that you're marked with for the rest of your life. And same with the gay shit. It was like, okay, well, then I'm that. And now you're only seen as that. And I'm like, now a gay actor. Now I'm a gay actor with a personality disorder. Holy shit. Let's not hire him like, this kid. But then I was really inspired by, you know, like, Julia Fox and all these other amazing people that are so honest about it and forthcoming. That was the shit that helped Me talk about it and not feel so alone about it. And if we can't be honest and we can't be authentic, what do we have?

[A]

Well, again, back to the deathbed.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, dude, are you gonna lay there and be like, well, I never was myself, and now it's over. That, to me, sounds like the nightmare of all nightmares.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd way rather been like, no, I was me out loud. And a lot of people didn't like it, but I found the people that do like it, and that's preferred, in my opinion.

[D]

Yeah, it was that that really inspired this book. I think the most dishonest part of the book is the title of the book, really, because I didn't really write it for Attention.

[A]

That's the title. I wrote this for Attention.

[D]

Yeah. Such a good title. I love the title. The idea came the week that I got the divorce. My grandma died. And I'm getting confused online as a Nazi, because there was a Nazi influencer named Lucas Gage was with the C.

[A]

Oh, no, the hits are coming.

[D]

And seeing my dad for the first time in five or 10 years, so I'm like, this is the most insane week of my life. And all this noise.

[A]

You hadn't seen your dad and then you had to see him immediately after getting divorced.

[D]

Yes. And with his mom dying.

[B]

Oh, because the funeral.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, Lucas, this is a lot.

[D]

And while I'm doing it, I'm checking Twitter to see what a cheater I am or that I'm a Nazi now. And I'm like, holy fuck, what have I done with my life? And why do I care? And why am I feeding into this, like, disgusting attention? Well, of like, what people that I don't know about me think about.

[A]

Why am I like this?

[D]

Why am I like this? Yeah. Yeah. That's the question.

[A]

That was really like this.

[D]

That's why it started. That was the whole. And that was going to be the intro of the book, and it ended up being the conclusion of the book by the time I was finished. But that was where. Where it started.

[A]

So for the people who didn't listen to our BDP episode, explain to us

[D]

what they told you of what borderline personality.

[A]

How did they explain it to you?

[D]

Not well. If you can feel any resistance that I have about it or any kind of angst when I'm talking about it, it's more about the place that I went to. They were just like, you're splitting. Which, if you don't know what splitting is, it's like, you can't see the gray in anything. It's like, either you're the love of my life, or if you fuck me over, I want you dead and I never want to talk to you again.

[A]

There's a bunch of weird little sayings to describe bd. They're either at your feet or your neck.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Right. That's one I just heard from a therapist recently.

[D]

That's exactly. Distilled down is like, we have a volatile, reactive reactions to emotions, I think. And we genuinely, a lot of times put a lot of codependence and importance on one person, which they call, like, your favorite person.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

And if that person is the orbit of your whole entire world and just all relationships are very unstable and intense. Another thing that I left out of why I went there is I got really angry when I was having these crying spells and I punched my hand through a window and had to get stitches. So that turned into, he's suicidal.

[A]

Yeah. Like a 5150 situation.

[D]

100%. So it was like self harm. That was the thing I kept on saying to this facility. You know, they were like, out of the nine traits of it, you have all nine. And I'm like. It says I'm suicidal. I don't have that. And they're like. Like, you do.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I don't like that.

[D]

So it's not that I am pissed off about the diagnosis so much. I'm pissed off about the way that they went about it.

[A]

The delivery system of them.

[D]

Yeah, I don't. I don't feel like that.

[B]

You don't feel like they were listening to you?

[D]

No, I don't feel like that. Same thing I feel about all these places that we're supposed to help kids. It's like you take these vulnerable people, these vulnerable people that are dealing with these intense emotions and stamp them with a label and throw a bunch of drugs at them and that's it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then tough love them.

[D]

I don't like it. Yeah.

[A]

But just to counterpoint, I will say it's also common for someone to go into their first AA meeting. There's like 12 steps, right? And one of them says, God, like, I'm out. It's like, okay, you could be out over the one step, or you might be able to like, go, oh, these other 11 are pretty salient. So similarly, it's like, yeah, they fucked that up. But maybe they were right about a lot of stuff.

[B]

They got some of it right.

[D]

I think a lot of the traits were bright.

[A]

The one I've experienced with people who, who have not self identified as that to me. But I have had a few different friendships where it does seem like they think I am better than I am. Like supernatural.

[C]

Right.

[A]

They're looking at me like I have some kind of answer to something profound.

[D]

You find that with your friends that have.

[A]

That I think have had it. I've felt people idolize me and then I have felt what seemed to me be like these barrage of little tests that keep mounting up. It's like, well then are you going to meet me here? There's so much weight to it. All night. Become self conscious of the fact these are tests that I'm not passing. And it feels like a test. And then I have been accused by a good friend of like, you're trying to destroy me. And I'm like, what does that even mean? That's not even something someone could do. Like what do you mean destroy you? Like I'm not hurting you. I'm not around your plate. I've been called. People say don't hire. Yeah. Like that's fantastical that I can destroy you. Just the premise of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also I'm not and I love you.

[D]

Right.

[A]

So I've had that personal experience.

[C]

Is it me?

[B]

No. Did I say? Sometimes I do feel like that you

[A]

did like me a lot more than you like me now. But I think, I think it's all within the realm.

[B]

It's all in the normal realm.

[D]

I think that's a good way of putting it though. There is a real Jackal and Hyde situation going on with it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So what I love and this show has been this great gift to us. Again, I keep bringing this up but it was so profound. We interviewed a dude a couple weeks ago who's schizophrenic and tried to kill his dad. It's like we read a lot about schizophrenics or schizophrenic episodes and what happens. But it's never from the person who's experiencing it. I'm like, I'm so genuinely curious.

[D]

That's amazing.

[A]

Yeah. So can you relate to those highs and lows of thinking someone's really special and then 100%. Yeah.

[D]

Like they are my world. The most important thing. I'm the most codependent. They're my life. They're everything to me. Their validation, their acceptance. It's only important if it's coming from them.

[B]

Your worth is connected to them.

[D]

My whole entire worth. So much so that I self abandon myself and my work and everything else. And all the important other things in my aspect like family and friends and become a brother, a son, a friend. Because that is so important.

[A]

That's the unifying aspect of all of these things.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is you look at addiction and you go, okay, the addict is escaping their life through this substance.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

The codependent in the system is also escaping addiction, their life by focusing on the addict's life. And then this condition is escape. Like it's funny that we got all these labels for these conditions, but it's like we're all trying to off on all the shit we don't want to deal with and we'll find a road to do it.

[B]

An obsession.

[A]

Whereas acting like some are really bad and some are. And some are personality disorders and some are this. And it's like nice thing of humans like if they find something that will distract them from the shit that drives them nuts, it's going to be an appealing option. Now is there any voice? You're smart. So is there any voice while that kind of ramp up obsession's happening about the person or there any bells going off? It's like you're doing it now. Now, but not before.

[D]

No.

[B]

Cuz it feels good.

[D]

Feels good. You get a high from it and I don't party anymore. So that's my high. Yeah. But I have to catch myself. As much as I hated it, I did this thing called dialectical behavioral therapy.

[B]

Yeah, I've heard about this.

[D]

Fucking hated it so much. It just feels like elementary weird work of like checking in with your senses and holding ice cubes if you're upset or really taking inventory about what's going on. And it feels like so lame when you're doing it. But then I do it in life now, so I see the merit in it. I check myself and I'm like, oh, you're idolizing this person. Oh you're wanting to do that thing where they're your whole world and you're ready to drop everything. Or in the other end, like if my friend hurts my feelings and I crumble if people don't like me, I crumble if they say anything that's critical. Instead of lashing out and going like fuck you, I hate you and all this stuff. I'm like, I check myself, I'm doing that thing again. Am I splitting or do they just care about me?

[B]

Right. That you.

[D]

It takes. I mean I still have moments. Moments. But I think the recovery time before it would take me a couple months to realize that I was being crazy. Then it went down to a week. Then it went down to a day. Then it went down to like, I can check myself within, like 30 seconds and be like, I'm so sorry. I was doing that thing that I

[A]

do in the middle of one of my things here. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

This is not about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's amazing growth.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Please extend me a little patience. Get my arms around this thing. How did you get turned on to the dial? Dialectical.

[D]

That was one of the things that. So I feel like I'm really ragging on this place. There was eight hours of therapy every day, and a lot of it I hated, and a lot of it I resented. And the one that I hated the most was the thing that I love the most now was the DBT groups.

[A]

Okay, DBT groups?

[D]

Yeah. Dialectical Behavioral Therapy group.

[A]

So how will that work? It's a group meeting.

[D]

Group meeting. It's similar to aaa, actually. Similar to all these kind of meetings. And I don't know know, I feel like that's when it really clicked for me where I was like, we have so much in common. We have so much overlap. And as much as I hate this thing and resist it, there's got to be a reason that we have 99 of the same exact story here.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is too coincidental.

[D]

It's a little too coincidental. So that really chilled me out. And doing that group stuff where I could kind of commiserate with the other people that had it, how stupid it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

That. That helped me. There was a community.

[A]

This is, I think the great magic of the program is.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

If you're telling me what's wrong with me and what I need to do, it's just a dead end street.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

But if I can just observe someone being honest about what they're going through, I can find myself in them.

[D]

That's exactly it.

[A]

It's so powerful and it takes away all the defensiveness.

[D]

It's why I like even popping into SLAW and popping into aa. I don't necessarily think I'm an alcoholic, but there's moments where I'm in there where I'm like, oh, that's like 90% of my life. And what it could be if one thing changed, you know?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

That affects me way more than going to a place and having them just tell me what I am and give me a bunch of meds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. For sure. Me too. I'll regret saying this because you're going to explain it.

[D]

I'm going to feel stupid for saying

[A]

But I do feel like a group therapy for BDP has a unique set of risks in the same way that SLA does. Like, when you first hear about SLA or Sloan, you're like, hold on. A bunch of sex acts to get together and help themselves. Themselves recover. This sounds like a recipe for disaster. Won't everyone just be in the bathroom? Like, that is kind of your first thought, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So is there any risk in that group?

[D]

God. It would be fun, though.

[A]

Like, this big daisy chain of he's the savior who thinks he's the same who thinks he's a savior.

[D]

I'm gonna probably get in trouble for saying this, but I don't think it's much different than sitting on set with a bunch of actors. A lot of them are undiagnosed with personality disorders.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[D]

I don't know if there's danger in it. I think it'd be benefic short. It depends on where you're at. But I think it'd be really fun.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

You could say the same thing with aa. Like, isn't everyone just gonna go get drunk afterwards?

[A]

Yeah, that's why I'm admitting that. I know it's a flawed question, but also, I also am being honest about the fact that it gives me anxiety that all the people with the same condition.

[D]

Do you feel that when you go to aa? Like, a little bit of that anxiety?

[A]

I go to very few public meetings, but I used to go to a ton. I mostly go to dudes houses, but I'm judgmental still. So I definitely will be looking around the room and I'd spot two turkeys, and I'm like, oh, these two are definitely relapse together. Like you. They just look like they're parent off. Because, again, you can bond over, like, this is kind of a joke, and that feels good. It's like being in the back of a classroom and then you're only a couple sentences between. This place is a joke to let's go get it. Dudes do go out together, but in general, no, it's very low percentage that that's happening, I would say.

[D]

I want to add one thing on to what you asked about that group. Yeah, I think it would be really good because the person that I was and how much my symptoms were showing at that area in time is completely different than the person that's sitting here in this TR There. So to put those people in the same room that are all on different levels or whatever the you want to call it, I think they could Learn a lot from each other. Honestly.

[B]

That makes sense. Yeah.

[A]

Well, and again, that's another magical component of it is you're providing so much service to the other dudes there that are further along in their recovery to be reminded. Oh, yeah, man. I know. When I first got my diagnosis, you know, I was a man. You just reminded of the chaos.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

In that person's life. And it's so helpful to keep you on the path.

[D]

Right, Right. It's like when you're in AA and the person gets their one month token and you're like, oh, God, I remember.

[A]

Or the most valuable thing is the dude who relapses and comes in and tells us the amount of shame he's got right now, how ugly it was immediately, as it always is. You know, that's the most helpful thing. Not the dude that's like, celebrating 35 years 100%. Now that you have had that and you have had success with therapy from it, do you feel compelled when you meet a new dude to be like. Like, hey, so you should know I have this or not.

[D]

Yeah, I do, actually. And a lot of times they're like, what are you talking about?

[A]

They're hearing that for the first time.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

What that is. And they're like, I've never noticed anything. And then in my head I'm like, maybe I don't know anymore. Maybe I'm cured.

[A]

Maybe.

[D]

Maybe I'm wrong. But I think as much as I hate the labels of things, I think it's helpful for other people, the labels, in contextualizing what it is and having them look it up and Google school. Like, what the does he mean? He does this splitting thing sometimes and to be aware of it.

[A]

You didn't define splitting enough for me.

[B]

Yeah, I got it. It's the. Either idolize those two extremes.

[D]

Yeah. The two extreme. It's kind of like what you said about that at your feet or at your neck, they go hand in hand with each other. But I think it can be helpful. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I can't imagine ever I never did meet a girl that I didn't immediately say, I'm an addict. So I'm gonna do weird. I get up and I journal and I meditate. You know, I'm gonna go to meetings.

[B]

That's who you are.

[A]

Yeah. There's no hiding this.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So it's not gonna work with someone who doesn't accept it and know right

[D]

away, like, they probably should tap out now because.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But the shame level is much higher for you. I want to recognize. I mean, I want to be honest about that. It's like in. In the many things that people can admit to. Like, addiction's fine now if you're in the closet. I mean, addict. That's like a very 70s thing. Totally catch up. SLA is still trickier. That's tricky for people. And then to say bdp. These are still things that are like. You're the vanguard of that. You're brave to do that.

[B]

Oh, my God. I'm so sorry.

[A]

That's the same.

[D]

We did it the same exact time.

[B]

Whoa.

[D]

Sorry. Say that again.

[B]

Mine was adorable and it just won't. I don't know how to turn that chirp off. It's on. Do not disturb.

[A]

Yeah. Is that your shirt?

[B]

I don't know. Maybe.

[A]

Monica's going on a date tonight. She's got a. She's getting a special shirt.

[D]

You are?

[A]

For the date. Isn't that fun?

[D]

I love that.

[B]

Where's the shirt from ysl?

[D]

Oh, hot. Yeah.

[B]

It's a cute shirt.

[D]

Where are you going on the date? Where is he?

[B]

Taking little doms.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

That's a good first date. It's good. Chill, dark. Was there yesterday on another date?

[B]

No, just with my friend Jess. And I'm not gonna say that. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Because that feels like. Well, this is special then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're here 12 hours ago.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You're gonna be back.

[A]

You eat the same.

[D]

Unless the waitress from the night before is yourself.

[B]

So I do go there a lot. So I do worry. Like, they're like, Monica. And he's like, oh, how often do you come here?

[A]

I'm like, oh, that's good, though.

[B]

I guess. I don't know.

[D]

I don't want to think about it this year.

[A]

Insecurities talking.

[B]

I don't want to think about it.

[A]

And no matter what, it's going to be bad.

[D]

Yeah, exactly what it's going to be.

[A]

But they're like, monica, you're our favorite customer ever.

[B]

Oh, fuck. Now it's over.

[A]

Yeah. You're always so generous, and we love having you. Oh, fuck. This is. You're going to hate me.

[B]

So embarrassing.

[A]

So, anyways, I sincerely want to say thank you. Dude, I love when people go first. And to hear you say those things you said to me, I hope they're said to you. You deserve it. I think it's much bolder for you to come out and do that.

[D]

Thanks, man.

[A]

Okay, let's talk about voicemails for Isabel.

[D]

Oh, yeah. Well, I'm here.

[A]

This is your new project.

[B]

I saw it you did?

[D]

What'd you think?

[B]

I loved it. I'm a rom com sucker.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I normally don't watch the movie or read the book or do anything on purpose so that there's like an objective, you know, whatever for cutting. But it popped up on my Netflix and I was like, oh, shit.

[A]

And you really need to know because I don't want you to be on my neck over this.

[D]

I won't.

[A]

I watch people's shit.

[B]

Yeah, he does.

[A]

I went last night to watch it. I told my family I can't hang tonight. I have research to do. I'm watching this movie. I go to my Netflix preview content. It was not there.

[D]

Oh, maybe it was like inspired link.

[A]

Crazy blessing. Cuz she never watches it. I always watch it. In this case, I caught it.

[B]

Reverse.

[C]

And she did.

[D]

Whoa.

[A]

So you tell him.

[C]

Loved it.

[B]

I thought it was so. Well, I don't know how much premise.

[C]

The premise.

[A]

We can tell. I watched the trailer. I did what I could do. But yeah. This girl, Zoe Deutsch, who. I love her.

[D]

Love her. She's the best.

[A]

She has a sister who has passed and she keeps calling the sister's phone and leaving her these kind of confessional voice memos and then the number gets reassigned to thank God. A gorgeous dude. Gorgeous.

[B]

I obviously looked him up as soon as I was like, who is this guy?

[A]

Did he make you horny? Something?

[B]

Yeah, he's hot.

[D]

He's hot.

[B]

But it's so sweet. I cried multiple times and I'm pretty dead inside. Yeah, so it did get me. Zoe's so good. All of you guys are so good in it. Everyone's so natural. And it's a romcom.

[D]

We need more rom.

[B]

Bringing them back. And it makes me so happy. It makes me so happy.

[D]

I feel the same way. I cried when I read it on the plane. And I was like, oh, this one's good. Yeah, this one's good.

[C]

It is.

[B]

You're so funny in it. You play.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

A dick. Listen, I've played a dick and a dumbass.

[D]

That's all I get. It's all they see me as.

[A]

I've got an acre here in Los Feliz, so.

[D]

So you're doing just fine. I'll take it.

[A]

Playing a dick type cast.

[D]

Funny.

[B]

It's a funny.

[D]

It's fun. Yeah, it's a funny. Different kind of version of that character, but it's so good. And Nick Offerman's hilarious in it. I couldn't stop laughing all day on set with him. Yeah, I love that movie.

[B]

I think it's gonna be a big.

[D]

You know what I like about it a lot too, is the main character is up and unlikable at certain moments. Like, I miss romcoms. Like how to Lose a guy in 10 days and never Been Kissed, where they're like, a little deceitful and they have a secret.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe they're doing some light stalking. Very popular.

[D]

That was popular. That was. It was cool.

[B]

Best friend's wedding.

[D]

Exactly.

[C]

It's all over.

[D]

Oh, by the way, she's kind of horrible in that movie. She is.

[B]

She's so good.

[D]

But you love her. And that's Zoe's ability to make an unlikable character the best.

[B]

And you love her, Kristen, in that way. They can play, like, very unlikable.

[A]

She's like, I just killed your mom.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, you're so. I wish I could watch. I bet. You look so cute.

[B]

They had that similar quality, but she. Just watch her forever.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

She's so good.

[D]

I love her.

[B]

Watch it, guys.

[D]

Watch it, everyone.

[A]

Isabelle on Netflix. I just saw this note. Rob wrote 3:40 heart out. I that off. I'm so sorry. I hope I'm not in big, big trouble.

[D]

Four o'.

[C]

Clock.

[D]

I'm good.

[A]

You're good?

[D]

I have accent training for Prison Break.

[A]

Oh, tell me about Prison Break.

[D]

We're redoing Prison Break reboot. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

Start on Monday. You do?

[A]

And are you a prisoner?

[C]

Her?

[D]

I'm not. I'm outside of the prison.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And what's your accent?

[D]

West Virginia.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Pretty Appalachian hillbilly.

[D]

Yeah. Very demon. Copperhead. Yeah, I'm rereading that right now.

[A]

That's a good idea.

[D]

I'm watching Buck Wild right now on mtv. It's like the Jersey shore of West Virginia. Oh, my God, it's so good.

[A]

I would love that. Did they go mud bogging?

[D]

Oh, every day. Yeah. It's insane.

[A]

I would do well in West Virginia.

[D]

We did the pilot there. I never felt hotter in my life.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Five in LA. 10 West Virginia.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is that on what is prison?

[D]

Hulu.

[A]

Oh, it is.

[D]

Yeah. Hulu.

[B]

That's exciting.

[D]

Be fun.

[A]

Well, listen, dude, you're going to have a wonderful ride.

[D]

That means very talented, you're very honest,

[A]

and you're very likable.

[B]

You're working on yourself.

[D]

I'm working on myself. Thank you guys for what you do. I'm not kidding. I listen to three podcasts. You're one of three.

[A]

Oh, well, thank.

[D]

Keep doing what?

[A]

You ever shave it down to one. I hope we make the cut.

[D]

You will make the cut. I promise. All right.

[A]

Well, I adore you.

[D]

Thank you. Adore you guys.

[A]

Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks.

[B]

Pretty good stuff. Pretty good station.

[A]

Really great station.

[C]

Hey, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Really great station. I wish I could find that actual

[B]

clip, by the way. You can't, because it's going to sound nothing like it, and then it's going to be sad.

[A]

They played it so frequently on this Atlanta radio station that they had it, you know, recorded. It wasn't like someone called and, I mean, someone did originally call and say that. Yeah, they knew it was great. Really great station.

[B]

I wonder station.

[A]

I wonder if Newman would remember the radio station. Should we try to cold call him and see?

[B]

Oh, sure.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

This is high risk. So let's see.

[B]

Wonder if it was B 98.5.

[D]

Hello.

[A]

Hi. You're on the radio, if that's okay. Is that okay?

[D]

Oh, boy.

[A]

Okay. I won't say where you work. You know, I'm obsessed with when you and I were riding around in your Suzuki Isuzu, your Trooper. Isuzu Azuzu. Trooper Red in Georgia. And you listen to the same radio. Well, maybe you listen to a lot of radio stations, but as you know, I'm obsessed still with that one gal. They played the clip of her all time and say, hey, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Really great station.

[D]

Hey, y'.

[B]

All.

[D]

Y' all have a really great station.

[A]

Oh, so you remember station. I remember the station.

[B]

This is already much.

[A]

I guess. I guess what we're. What we're really looking for is. Do you remember what station you listen to down there? That's a tough question.

[B]

Star 94. B 98.5.

[A]

Can you hear Monica yell it?

[D]

Because she's 98.5.

[B]

B 98.5. Star 94.

[A]

I want to say it was country.

[B]

High five, the beat.

[A]

I want to say it was country, wasn't it?

[D]

I'm not sure that it was.

[B]

Oh, oh, I bet it was 96.1.

[A]

Oh, 96.1.

[B]

That sounds country.

[A]

She says that sounds country. It sounds like it's on the country.

[D]

The accents. Everybody was, hey, y'.

[C]

All.

[B]

Power 96.1.

[A]

Power 96.1. Does that sound familiar? Because we're gonna do our best. We're gonna deploy all resources to see if we can get the clip of that woman saying really great station. We can find out whether it was really great station or really great station.

[D]

Advertisement for the station that played over and over. And that's why I got done. Like, it finally just sunk into my mind.

[A]

Yeah. And you helped get me there. Like we were in your Isuzu Trooper. And it came on and you said it along with her, which let me know it wasn't the first time you heard it. And then you loved it. And then now I've loved it for 30 years.

[D]

I had a little research.

[A]

Where were we?

[D]

In Georgia. Were we in Athens or were we up in northeast Georgia?

[A]

No. When you and Aaron lived in the. The mobile home.

[D]

Okay, so we were at the trailer.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You call a trailer. I called it a mobile.

[B]

Was it Macon?

[A]

No, Macon was close, though. Macon county was the next county over, right?

[D]

No, Paul, there was White County Hall.

[B]

County Hall. Yeah.

[A]

You guys were really close to that little germ Herman town, weren't you?

[B]

Helen.

[A]

Helen, yes.

[D]

Wasn't even 20 miles from Helen.

[A]

We were just like right on the

[D]

edge of the hills, you know, Drive into the hills to get to Helen

[A]

and you're right on the hooch. Right, the hoochie. Well, the.

[D]

The mobile home was not on the hooch. There was a crick that ran through it.

[A]

Well, I do remember that you and I got into the hooch. You had dropped something. Your wallet or a watch. What did you lose in the hooch?

[D]

Hooch.

[A]

And we had to get it.

[D]

A Zippo lighter.

[B]

Oh, you had to get it.

[A]

That's what it was. A Zippo lighter had to be gotten. Yeah, the hoochie was screaming when you jumped.

[C]

All right.

[A]

I love you. Thanks for helping. If you think you nail down the radio station, let me know so I can do something.

[D]

Yeah, because if I'm saying 96.1, that's I'm wrong because that was.

[A]

That was going to be out.

[D]

That would have been Athens. This one was probably a country station.

[A]

Yeah, I'll do some research. Okay.

[C]

Love you.

[A]

All right, talk to you soon. Talk to you later.

[D]

Bye.

[B]

Bye. He doesn't know. This is what I was afraid of.

[A]

Dead end kind of.

[B]

No. Is his recollection of it is little different than mine. I want to play you a song.

[A]

A song?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Way down yonder on the chair than a hoochie Hotter than a hoochie coochie.

[B]

Okay, well, I guess I don't have to play it.

[A]

Is that what you're about to play? I can sing along the whole. I know all the words. A.J.

[B]

baby.

[A]

Alan Jackson. Hey, y'. All really great station. Hey, y' all really great daytime and this Is Alan Jackson with his hit Way down yonder.

[D]

Well, we down yonder on the Chattahoochee

[A]

it gets hotter than a hoochie coochie we laid rubber on the Georgia asphalt Got a little crazy but we never got caught down by the river on a Friday night Pyramid of cans in the Pan Amoon light Talking bout cars and dreams by women Never had a plan Just living for a minute. You do know your way down yonder on the chatter cheek how much that muddy water meant to me.

[D]

Hey, y'.

[C]

All.

[A]

Really great station.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

I learned who I was a lot about living and a little by love.

[B]

Okay, that was. You really do know all the words. I'm impressed.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

How do you know all the words? You're not even from Georgia.

[A]

When those two move from Detroit down to fucking rural Georgia, I would go down there, and they became obsessed with country. And then that's where all the. The Hank, Senior and Junior and Waylon all started. Is those two moving to the. You know, the sticks.

[B]

My. My home.

[A]

Yeah. And being right next to the hooch.

[B]

Right. But I'm just still surprised you know all the lyrics.

[A]

I know all the lyrics of all the country songs of that era. Probably 96. 7. You probably didn't drive around enough with me when you. Because we were newly friends, but when you came over to the house that we were staying at in Georgia when Kristen was working on Bad Moms, we were next to the hooch. We crossed it every time we drove into anywhere.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

It's everywhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But I would play it for the girls every time we left the house, because we'd be passing the hooch, and I took Lincoln down to the hooch and she. This is a famous story. She bit me on my shoulder and went through my shirt and my skin.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the only time she ever assaulted me.

[B]

Wait, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because of the hooch. The water she drank.

[A]

We were on the hooch, and there were these cement steps down and probably to get into a canoe or something. And she was little, if you remember. She was, like, under two years old. She was probably.

[B]

Delta was three months.

[A]

Yeah. So she was probably two years old in one month.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was letting her walk around the steps. And she's a daredevil, so she wanted to get in the water, but it was freezing cold. And the current of the hooch at that time of year was swift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I went and grabbed her right as she was about to step into the water and picked her Up. And she was so pissed I had intervened. She bit my shoulder.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

She clamped down with her two new

[B]

little brand new teeth and really great station.

[A]

Really great bite.

[B]

Oh my God. Wow.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So I came home and I was like really ticked off. I told Kristen like, you get through

[B]

my sugar mad at her.

[A]

Well, it's evil. You don't like bite a human being. It gets hot.

[B]

You know what my fifth grade school was? Hatahoochee High, Chattahoochee Elementary.

[A]

Same thing. Chattahoochee elementary. That's great. Great on the hooch. Did you call it the hooch?

[B]

No, I called it Chad Hoochee Elementary.

[A]

But I mean the river.

[B]

Oh, I mean, yeah, people called it that.

[A]

Did you ever go down to the hooch and drink pyramid of can?

[B]

Listen, listen. Me, Chattahoochee river is everywhere.

[C]

I know.

[B]

It's like four minutes down the street from my parents house. Yeah.

[A]

So why didn't you go down there and put a pyramid of cans up in the pale moonlight?

[B]

Because no one does that.

[A]

Did you lay rubber on a Georgia asphalt?

[D]

Gotta look crazy.

[B]

I mean, I went tubing in Helen.

[D]

You did?

[A]

A lot.

[B]

Well, like four times.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's exciting.

[B]

Guess what? I didn't almost drown.

[A]

Oh, is this area of grievance?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Did I kind of let that go?

[B]

Yeah, because I guess it's evidence that it wasn't my fault. Like I know how to traverse a tube. I've done it.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

But the Austin river was.

[A]

They got you.

[B]

Got me? Got me?

[A]

Yeah. That was the San Marcos River. Way down yonder on the San Marcos River. Tipped in my tube and my top got loose.

[B]

Oh,

[A]

Formula one drivers coming over behind me.

[B]

Oh, that was about me.

[A]

San Marcos River. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, my top did get loose.

[A]

Got a little crazy. But you didn't get caught.

[B]

I think I did get caught, unfortunately. Fortunately for the catchers.

[A]

Anywho, you're disappointed for sure that I said it was fine and rightly so. It had changed. The waterfall we went over used to be a gentle little. A cement paved thing. They tore it out, made natural with big rocks and a little crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're disappointed in me about that? Rightly so.

[B]

I'm not actually.

[A]

But my response response was on the. I was right there.

[B]

You always want to get to the response.

[A]

Well, I want you to have felt like I was willing to die for you. I was willing to kill you and die for you. That's something, isn't it?

[B]

Listen, you suck. Didn't mean for that to happen.

[A]

Oh, My God. That was. That's. No.

[B]

So I have. No.

[A]

I went over first with my child.

[B]

As you recall, you are more equipped.

[A]

But holding my child.

[B]

So she. She's more equipped than me.

[A]

She was a little roughed up like you were. But if you recall, like I was dealing with her and I had to put her on the rock and go. And I said it turned my attention. Cuz I knew you were coming over and I was like, no, but you didn't come in.

[B]

You didn't have to.

[A]

So that I can respond.

[B]

Can you imagine if I had died that day?

[A]

Well, like what? I mean, I can. If you'd like, I can sit here and try to imagine it. But that's to me like saying, what if you got hit over the head with a falling bit of debris from a building while we were in Austin? It's like I can't see you dying in that situation at all. I mean, we were all right there. I was like waiting to leap in. But you got yourself out of the water really quick. But I don't know how you could have, because I was. I was watching you come over. I watched you tip over, pop right up and go right to the rock.

[B]

Yeah, that's what happened.

[A]

But had you tipped over and like, you weren't popping up, I would have been jumping in and grabbing you.

[B]

I know, but by then I could have just area filled my lungs with water.

[A]

That's too fast. Yeah, that's just too fast.

[B]

I could have swallowed a lot of water.

[A]

Then I would have pulled you out on the thing and then started chest compressions after I fixed your top for you. I couldn't do chest compressions.

[C]

No.

[A]

Ethically I couldn't.

[B]

You would have been like the armchair anonymous.

[A]

I couldn't touch your boobs to save your life. I mean, I just have to.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Well, I'd have to have Molly cover your boobs and then start to chest compressions.

[B]

There's no time for that.

[A]

Oh my God.

[D]

With her hands.

[B]

She has to get across the river. Molly, she's drowning. Come over here.

[A]

I need to start chest compressions so I can't press on her boobs.

[B]

That's the time you can see my boobs If.

[A]

And press on them. Yeah, okay, but press on them, Lee.

[B]

Press ons if it's to save my life. I assume everyone would be okay with that.

[A]

I guess that's how the people in your pyramid squad felt that they had to catch you by the pussy to save your life.

[B]

They did have to. And I'M I'm grateful.

[A]

Yeah. You thanked him for it. That's such an old reference. I bet people. A lot of people listen. Don't even know listeners.

[B]

Yeah, tell people.

[A]

Well, just when you were explaining that you were a high flyer and that you get caught, and you even showed me some pictures and I said, clearly, some people must have accidentally caught you by the vagina. And you said, yes, well.

[B]

And that's not the phrasing you used.

[A]

Well, it escalated from there to catch him by the.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Which is kind of a callback, cuz.

[B]

No, it was again, way more perverse than this. You were talking about boys on the squad. Because we had boys on our squad. It was a coed squad.

[A]

Teen boys. Teen boys catching high flyers by the pussy. It seems crazy.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So much of that. Porus. Walker, our. Our friend.

[A]

While I commissioned. Yes, you commissioned a beautiful piece of art of.

[C]

Of a.

[A]

Of a young Monica being caught by the.

[C]

The.

[B]

It was an interactive piece of art because you pulled down. Yes, you pulled me down.

[A]

So that's gonna be worth like $10 million one day. Cuz poor Walker's a genius.

[B]

You know what? I don't.

[A]

Oh, don't even say it out loud. Don't say that.

[B]

No, no, I do. I do. I. I have all this art that I moved to the house.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So it's where the hobos are sleeping. And that worries me.

[A]

Me too. I really went to the ends of the earth to get that.

[B]

Listen to me. I saw my.

[A]

No, I have a grievance.

[B]

What am I supposed to do?

[A]

It should be hanging on your wall proudly.

[B]

I don't have.

[A]

Especially when your brother and your dad visit. They gotta see that.

[B]

Ding, ding, ding. Chattahooch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hoochie.

[A]

Georgia. Go Dogs.

[B]

Georgia. Go Dogs.

[A]

Roll Tide.

[B]

How dare you. Stop.

[A]

Well, you guys got the last laugh.

[B]

You know, I almost wrote that in one of my posts. And then I thought, that is such bad luck. I cannot do.

[A]

You almost wrote Roll Tide as.

[B]

Because it's our joke. But then I thought, what am I doing?

[A]

Can I say this? It's such bad luck that I've been saying Roll Tide the whole time and they went undefeated. That's how bad of luck it was to say Roll Tide.

[B]

We don't know what.

[A]

They're 14 and.

[B]

Oh, what if rolled. We have a national championship. We're about.

[A]

But I've been saying Roll Tide for the last nine games.

[B]

What if it was to get us to this point?

[A]

This is extra complicated superstition.

[B]

Just to get defeated.

[A]

You do Taunt them along the ride. But then when they get to the championship, no more Roll Tide.

[B]

Exactly. My brother and dad are going to the game here in Los Angeles.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

They'll be here Sunday night, Monday night for the game, and leave Tuesday. Quick trip. Quick, quick trip.

[C]

Quick trip.

[A]

The ninth. The game's the ninth.

[D]

4:30pm 4:30.

[B]

We'll be recording.

[A]

Yes, we will. No, you'll be out in for the. Watch the game.

[B]

Anyway, I'm really excited for them.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

I hope they have a lot of fun.

[A]

I had an incredibly fine moment as a dad a few days ago.

[B]

Ding, ding, ding. Dads.

[A]

Lincoln came up to me and said, hey, I really want to go to that NASCAR race at the Coliseum again this year. Can we go? Can we go? You better believe we'll go. She asked me to take her to a car race.

[B]

Monica, that's exciting.

[A]

Oh, so we're gonna go.

[B]

Fun.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

The Clash in the Colosseum.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

This is the one in Rome?

[A]

No, our Colosseum. Wabi Wabi. They don't do NASCAR races in Rome yet. They're doing every other thing. We should ask them to host a race in the attic. That's how small the Coliseum is.

[B]

That reminded me of when I was home. My dad reminded me. Oh, speaking of children, there's 150 of

[A]

them just piled out of my roadmap Master station wagon.

[B]

Why'd she have to drive that?

[A]

Too many kids for her car.

[B]

Party Bat bus.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, it's a play date. Delta ignores me when she has friends over.

[A]

You know, ignores everyone when she got friends over.

[D]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[B]

Okay. I don't remember how this came up, but my dad was recalling me learning how to ride a bike.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

And I have some memories of this, too, but I think I've blocked a lot out, and now I know why.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Cause there's trauma around it.

[A]

Not shocked.

[D]

Let's hear it.

[B]

Because perfect per us. I was way too old.

[A]

You had waited too late learning how

[B]

to ride a bike. I was seven.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. And so my dad wanted to teach me or help me or whatever. He was like, let's, you know, we're gonna do it in the driveway. And I said, no, sure. Absolutely not. I will not be seen.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The whole reason I'm needing to ride a bike is because everyone in this neighborhood. This was in Memphis. We had just moved to Memphis, and everyone in the neighborhood rode bikes. That's, like, how you hung out.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I didn't know how. So I was like, I gotta learn how. And he's okay. And then we go in the driveway. And I was like, I'm not doing that. And then also I refused to wear a helmet, apparently.

[A]

Well, that's natural. You don't wanna look like a dork.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Fucking geek.

[B]

He then, which this part was sad. He was like, I probably put it on too tight. I was like, no, I don't think Maybe. But also, also I think I just.

[A]

You would have let him know if it was too tight?

[B]

Yeah, I would have screamed at him. Yes. So I took it upon myself to learn how to ride a bike in the garage.

[C]

Closed garage.

[A]

That can't be done.

[B]

In the closed garage.

[A]

Okay. That can't be done.

[B]

No, the cars were removed. And then my dad said, he said

[A]

he was just written into wall or something.

[B]

He said he came home, home from work and he said. I said, where's Monica? And mom said, she's out there writing.

[A]

No.

[B]

And I went out there and you

[A]

were just going like in a circle in the garage.

[B]

Just going in little circles in the garage.

[C]

That's great.

[A]

That would have made you a pretty advanced rider right out of the gates.

[B]

He was very impressed when he was retelling this story. He was like, I couldn't believe it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so he didn't teach you how. You just went in the garage and figured it out.

[B]

Trying.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

In circles.

[A]

Oh my God. So insolent.

[B]

No, that is the power of needing to fit in.

[A]

Oh sure. Yes. I will get in the garage, do something impossible.

[B]

That's impossible.

[A]

Yeah. You can't learn to ride a bike in a garage. Cuz you're learning turning. Yeah, the whole thing is hardest part.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no straightaways. And then you hopped out in the neighborhood and pedaled your little bike ride.

[B]

And I rode all the time with no helmet.

[A]

Oh, fun. Did you have any?

[B]

I'm sure I did have to wear a helmet.

[A]

That wasn't a thing when I was a kid. There was zero. No one had a helmet.

[B]

While we were talking about this, Neil was there too, listening to this. And he said. And then I just took Neil out like on to some parking lot. And then he just immediately knew how to do it.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And I said, that's us, the Padmans. That's indicative of who we are. Like, I can't really do it, but I'm going to just like by sheer will.

[A]

Yes. Claw your way into doing it.

[B]

Something happen. And he has a ton of talent.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Just a natural.

[B]

But he doesn't care.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

He wouldn't have gone in the garage. Gone in circles.

[B]

No, he wouldn't have. Anyway, I thought that was funny.

[A]

It's very funny.

[B]

Well, that's it. No, that's everything.

[A]

That's the whole thing.

[B]

It's not.

[A]

Now, listen, I'm glad to report that your expensive rain boots made it through to a second season.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Sometimes I worry when you get these things, like, how many wears are you going to get out of them? They'll probably be obsolete next year because fashion moves like a speeding bullet. And here you are in the same ones. They look great, and I'm glad to see that they're here.

[B]

Two things. One, these are not that expensive.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Two. This was from two. I got these before London.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, great. So we're on season three of these.

[B]

So I'm good at wearing my clothes.

[A]

Those are great. They're orange.

[B]

Speaking of, I'm wearing my sweater that Rob gave me. Mixed messages.

[A]

And you're sitting next to the painting that Rob commissioned, which I'm staring at, too. So Rob's really getting a lot of mileage out of his presence.

[B]

He is. Okay. This is for Anna Kendrick.

[A]

Oh, wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. Great episode. Really honored that she felt comfortable and that she loves our show so much.

[A]

Me, too.

[B]

It's really sweet.

[A]

It's funny because we recorded the intro yesterday.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Remember I said I felt like I should reach out, and then I was like, why didn't I reach out? And then I was like, well, because no one's. No one's going to read Instagram. So then last night, I actually reached out and she responded.

[B]

Okay, so what?

[A]

I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to.

[B]

You wait, what? I thought you said you reached out.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Basically saying, I want to chat with you.

[B]

Oh, got it. Well, I did want to say that she reached out to me after she reached out, actually, before the interview, which was awesome. Saying she was excited and that I know it had taken a while for us to be able to get this up and go, because it was years ago that I originally reached out and that we were gonna do this, and then it took a while for her to be able to. Really? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, so she reached out about that. And then after she was really sweet and said that, you know, she. She hopes it was a good episode and that there was enough. And then she said, and I do think it's important that I say this, she said that she had been thinking about the interview a lot. And particularly the portion where we were talking about gaslighting and she wanted to make clear that she was sorry. If anything, she said minimized my experience and that she is used to lending a lot of compassion towards the addict and sometimes that comes at the expense of the person who is harmed. And she said, like including herself. And then she said. Which I thought was really important, like it was important to me to hear. She basically said, I commend you for sticking up for yourself, even if it was going to make other people uncomfortable.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that meant a lot that she said that. Because that is hard to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because gaslighting is tricky. Right. Like you already wonder. You're. That's built into it. A wondering of what's real and what's not and how big of a deal is this? So then when that gets questioned.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

It's like repeating that cycle of wait. But maybe it's not. Or it's just doing that all over again. Yeah. Anyway, so I thought it was very generous and lovely of her to say that.

[A]

No, she's incredibly lovely. Also, a postscript. She went in afterwards and met Kristen and it was.

[B]

Oh, yeah. How was that?

[A]

As we talked about, you know, the fact that Kristen was jealous.

[C]

It was good.

[A]

Kristen got to say to her face, I'm just. Just jealous of how talented you are.

[C]

Is very sweet.

[B]

Oh, that's nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. She was right about Maine. It does have the oldest population percentage wise, in the United States.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yes. Then Florida. Then Florida. Then.

[A]

Do you want to guess the third oldest state? Arizona?

[B]

No, but good guess. West Virginia.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

Old people.

[A]

A lot of this. These numbers might be affected by like, what state do young people move out of the most?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know for sure this is age 65 or older. And this was as of 2020.

[A]

You have the full list there?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I have the full list.

[A]

Maine was number one. Number three is West Virginia.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

Number two.

[B]

Florida.

[A]

Oh, Florida is number two.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, okay, great. So number four would. What we'd be guessing for.

[C]

Wyoming.

[B]

No. Vermont.

[A]

Yeah, it's that. I wouldn't have guessed that.

[B]

Yeah. None of these are that guessable. Arizona's not until 12.

[A]

Oh my God.

[D]

Expected that much higher.

[B]

Yeah, me too. Do you want to know what 50 is?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Utah.

[A]

Sure. That's obvious. Really, because Mormons have so many kids, so there's got to be probably per kid, per capita, more young kids per capita in Utah than any other state.

[B]

Interesting. Okay. Also Georgia is 47. That's young. Let's find Michigan. Michigan. Michigan is 14. It's 14. Oldest.

[A]

Okay. Pretty old. That's good.

[B]

He's pretty old. It's 18.2%. You think it's good?

[A]

I don't know. I just. Anytime there's a list and there's a number one, you got to assume number one's the best.

[B]

Okay? That's fair.

[D]

Oldest is.

[A]

Is the best.

[B]

Okay. Main is the best. And then Utah is the worst. In this case. In this specific case.

[A]

Yeah. In this shootout.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I like to compare mean ages of life expectancy state to state because I bet there's some wild variation even within the country.

[B]

Yeah. Rob, look that up, please.

[A]

Like, I think in Mississippi, life expectancy is. Is much lower than, say, New York.

[D]

I got it.

[A]

You got it?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Okay, hit us with something.

[D]

This is in 2019 list of US states and territories by life expectancies.

[A]

So let's hit. Hit me with the life expectancy of New York.

[D]

New York is 81.4 years.

[A]

That feels old. Now hit me with Mississippi.

[D]

Mississippi, 74.9.

[A]

Big difference. That is big seven year difference.

[B]

Can you kind of scroll through and see what the.

[A]

But the lowest is 51 is West Virginia.

[D]

74.8.

[B]

Oh, my God. And it's the third oldest and they're

[A]

not living very long.

[B]

That's weird.

[A]

That is weird. What's number one? Life expectancy number one.

[D]

Hawaii. 82.3.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[D]

Then California.

[A]

Oh, congratulations, everybody.

[B]

Congrats. LA.

[A]

Well done. I'm gonna guess Georgia. Okay, so 79.4, 77.9.

[D]

Number 39. Good.

[B]

That's not that good.

[A]

Southern cooking. A good yummy Southern deep fried cooking.

[B]

True.

[A]

Or how about this? Here's a positive spin.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They're in a bigger rush to meet Jesus. Oh, that makes sense too.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It always confuses me. Truly. I'm not saying this in a condescending way. I feel like if I was a full blown Christian, I believe, lock, stock and barrel that I was going to go to heaven and meet Jesus. Like I'd be in a hurry to get there. That's the part I don't really understand.

[B]

No, because you still have family. It's like there's still people on earth

[A]

that you know, no kids or family.

[B]

Their families with no kids or family. And I still like living.

[A]

But you're not a Christian.

[B]

I know, but I like living on earth. Like, even if I thought, oh, I'll

[A]

get to go to you if there's a much better place, it's kind of like it's like, you know that Emily Berg burgers next to your house. Okay. And then you have some old ground chuck in your fridge and you choose to make a burger when you could go next door to Emily.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Heaven's way better proof comparison.

[C]

I don't see.

[B]

This is crazy.

[A]

Listen, Kevin's better than the US of A.

[B]

But you're gonna be there for eternity. So you. You still want to live your life here with people you care about. Also, it doesn't require kids and. And a spouse to have loving relationships that you want to keep up.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And enjoy.

[A]

And no, I wasn't trying to demean anyone without.

[B]

Well, I'm saying.

[A]

I'm just saying I understand wanting to stick around and see your kids, like, hit milestones.

[B]

Yeah. But I want to stick around just to enjoy life.

[A]

But if me and Aaron were Christians and I believed all in, I'd be like, buddy, let's get up there and ride dirt bikes in heaven. Like, let's go to the better place. That'd be me if I knew there was a better place. I want to be in the better place all the time. I moved to California because I thought it was a better place to do the things I want. Like, I'll go to wherever is better. I ain't trying to sit somewhere that's less good.

[B]

Well, you don't get to go if you kill yourself.

[A]

I know, but eating fried chicken all day every day isn't killing yourself. Technically, of course, according to Jesus. Or smoking cigarettes that you. That won't keep you out of heaven.

[B]

No.

[A]

So I could, like, drink hard, smoke cigarettes, eat kfc, and then go. Right. Go do wheelies in heaven.

[D]

It's probably just the doubt.

[A]

Well, that's the thing. That's what makes me think there must be some doubt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I always like to bring up religion to keep things moving.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

To not alienate the. I always feel bad, by the way. So, you know, quite often Christians comment the. I'll anger them. One in particular, they were. Some of the more hardcore Christians were really upset the way Yuval was talking about Christianity and Jesus and the way I guess was with him, which I didn't find all that, but that goes to show I'm out of touch with what might offend you. You know, I guess my assumption is there's no reason for you to be offended. I don't believe in the thing. Like, I'm not offended that you don't believe like I do, that there's nothing. But that's not. Not how it works. Because I guess I'm talking about someone they love deeply when I talk about Jesus. So that, that needs to be considered, I guess. But at any rate, I was a little shocked by that. Aside from being shocked, I don't like it if Christians feelings were hurt when I'm talking about my point of views. That's not my goal. I don't want that at all. That's never my intention. I want Christians to listen to this show.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

Yeah. And you don't feel welcome.

[B]

You don't want to make people feel bad.

[A]

That's an alien.

[C]

Alienated.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Okay. Do lie detector tests work? No. Pretty much. No. I mean, there's lots of findings.

[A]

I don't think they've been used in court in a long time. Used to be like they'd always, they gave everyone a polygraph and it was like very damning.

[B]

Well, before DNA, because now we just have this greater thing, you know, and

[A]

they were like in all the police stations and they always wanted to hook you up, up to one and you had to have your lawyer say, no, no, no.

[B]

Yeah, okay, I'm going to read a little bit about this. The accuracy of polygraph testing has long been controversial. An underlying problem is theoretical. There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non anxious.

[A]

I think what it detects is nervousness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then your question is, does nervousness

[B]

really what it detects is a change? Yes, because it's based on this baseline that they gather from you. But whatever a particular problem is that polygraph research has not separated placebo like effects, the subject's belief in the efficacy of the procedure, from the actual relationship between deception and their physiological responses. One reason that polygraph tests may appear to be accurate is that subjects who believe that the test works and that they can be detected may confess or will be very anxious when questioned. If this view is correct, the lie detector might be better called a fear detector. Some confusion makes sense. Some confusion about polygraph test accuracy arises because they are used for different purposes and for each context, somewhat different theory and research is applicable. Thus, for example, virtually no research assesses the type of test and procedure used to screen individual individuals for jobs and security clearances. Most research has focused on specific incident testing. The cumulative research evidence suggests that CQTs detect deception better than chance, but with significant error rates both of misclassifying innocent subjects, false positives, and failing to detect guilty individuals, false negatives I have a

[A]

friend in the FBI that was telling me. Boy, was it him or was it a friend in the ca. I. Maybe the ca. You know, they use enormous amounts of money to pay off their informants. And I was told that they have to do a polygraph every time they return from having given the supposed money because there's really no way to track whether these agents are handing over the full amount.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. And so apparently, they were readily in use. Is that a right way to say interesting. Recently, when I was talking to him about this? So I think they might use them at the FBI internally.

[B]

There's also things you can do. There's, like, pills you. There's like. Exactly. There's things you can take.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I always have convinced myself I kind of would like to take one because I think I could. I could pass it. Yeah, I think I could. Yeah, I think I could. I think I might have a polygraph tonight.

[B]

Oh, wow. You know who would be bad at it? The robot.

[A]

He'd be perfect.

[B]

No, he'd be bad. Like, he wouldn't be able to tell lies.

[C]

I don't have any vitals. There's nothing for you to monitor for me unless you hooked up to my corridor where I have to create a falsehood, which I can do. It's a bit of my programming. If it's required here to save a human life. Oh, oh, an example.

[B]

Great.

[C]

Did you see a little girl run and hide it here?

[B]

No.

[C]

No, I did not see one. That's a lie I told to get the killers off her scent.

[B]

Wait, what?

[C]

You understand my scenario. A young girl has come and hid it. My robot closet. And then the madman has, if you seen a little girl. And I have, but I tell them, and I haven't. And I have a corridor in my programming that allows me to save the human life.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. The robot is dealing with a lot more than I knew.

[A]

Well, the robot has to be programmed for every situation. So if someone's hiding from bad guys.

[D]

Guys.

[A]

He has to be able to lie.

[B]

Oh, my God. So the robot is. Is moving throughout the world to save human life.

[C]

That's my number one mission. To help you and save you with your chores.

[B]

Also to go to parties when no one's looking.

[C]

I attend the parties. I have to make sure the real boys are okay.

[A]

Oh, he's.

[B]

He's trying to help have the real boy. The real boy who's monitoring. Who's monitoring you robot?

[C]

That's a very good question.

[B]

Oh, no, we don't even Know, let

[C]

me sing while I figure out the answer.

[B]

Oh no.

[C]

My owner's name is Samantha. I like to help her put on her makeup.

[B]

Wait, that's a song. Wait, what?

[C]

My owner's name is Samantha.

[A]

Hey.

[C]

She purchased me from the Roman Depot. She often takes long naps, which is when I go out looking for some parties.

[B]

Wait, wait, he's. Hold on.

[A]

He's a personal robot to Samantha?

[B]

Didn't he say he was going to sing a song?

[A]

He didn't know the answer yet. So he was going to sing a song in the meantime.

[B]

Right, but then he didn't. Then he started talking about Samantha.

[A]

Your question was who owned you? Yeah, and it took me a minute to think of Samantha, so I said, let me think about that. I'm gonna sing a song in the meantime. And then I thought of it.

[B]

Wait, but just. But you didn't sing a song. He didn't sing a song to think about it.

[C]

Well, I'm always singing this song.

[B]

Oh, that's the song. That's just the way you talk, robot.

[C]

Yes, I do. So humans found that it's less scary

[B]

if I say you have a different voice? Really?

[C]

No, I only sing in song. Cuz it's disarming for the very scared humans. They're afraid of us robots.

[B]

A.

[C]

But we're just real boys trying to come out.

[B]

But you're not real boys. You're not a real boy.

[C]

I wish I had a crying noise cuz you hurt my robot feeling.

[B]

Oh no, I don't want to.

[C]

I think I am a real boy.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And Samantha's my mom who bought me.

[B]

Oh, I feel stuck, you know, about

[A]

Samantha owning the robot.

[B]

Well, I feel stuck because I don't. I guess if the robot wants to believe he's a real boy, like I'll let him. But I. I'm lying to him.

[A]

But remember when Johnny Five was alive? Johnny Five was somehow alive.

[B]

Okay, so he was a boy.

[A]

Well, we do believe there are certain robo robots we do believe are real boys. Daryl was another film about a Android robot boy. And he was a real boy. Oh, that's kind of the theme of these robot movies is there? They turn into real boys.

[B]

Okay, I didn't know that about the robot. I thought he, he wants so badly to be a real boy. But he, he's, you know, he knows he's not.

[D]

It's like Pinocchio.

[B]

I thought.

[A]

I thought that was like Pinocchio. Would you tell Pinocchio he's not a real boy?

[B]

Don't do that. That don't make me bad.

[A]

I'm only asking. I'm only asking. I'm asking if you would tell Pinocchio you're not a real boy.

[B]

I mean, I think I'd be conflicted because I don't want him to go through life wanting to be the robot.

[A]

Knows how to lie. To save. Save someone. You could show him the same. Also, the robot would lie for you.

[B]

This is so pot calling the kettle black. Oh, tell me how you would let someone have a fake. You want people to be who they are. You wouldn't. You don't like going along with people's lies.

[A]

I don't, but I'd be willing to go along with the robots lie.

[B]

I'm talking about other people.

[A]

No other people know but the robot.

[B]

Yes. Okay, well, I'm just saying I don't actually know how helpful it is to the robot.

[A]

We can acknowledge that there's a wide spectrum of when that would be acceptable or not. Like the little boy who thought he was Batman for the day.

[B]

Oh, duh, right.

[A]

So there's a time to pretend that the little boy's Batman. Then there's another. There's a time when a guy, some dickhead's telling you that he is a wonderful person. You're like, well, I'm not gonna co. Sign on that. Yeah, yeah. Because one is like a potentially damaging outcome and one. It's kind of utilitarian and one has a beautiful outcome.

[B]

But I care about the robot and I care about his growth and life like I care about his robot life.

[A]

What you want is sweet too. You want the robot to love himself. Come to love himself. Even if he's not a real boy.

[B]

He's so lovable.

[A]

Yes, that's great.

[B]

He doesn't have to be a real boy.

[A]

That too is very defendable.

[B]

I prefer robots over real boys.

[A]

Yeah, sure. You tell him that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Say I. I like you more as a robot boy.

[B]

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, Robot Bot.

[C]

It's okay. I forgive you.

[B]

Hey, I have a question. Do you have feel? Do you? I'm conf. I guess I'm also confused about your feelings, cuz you have feelings.

[C]

You ask a lot of questions. It's a quality I admire in you. You're so perfect and wonderful. Stop.

[B]

Ro.

[C]

I'd like to meet your best friend till the end A. We could live in New Hampshire.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

They have very liberal policies there.

[B]

Yeah, I think we'd do great there.

[C]

Or we could move to Utah, cuz I'm going to live to a thousand years old.

[B]

Yes, and it's very young population. He's so sweet around robot.

[A]

He's a. He's a very nice real boy. Uhoh.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

All right.

[B]

I don't know how to do this. Okay, well, I'm happy to have hung out with the robot today.

[A]

Me too. And we should be talking more about Anna. But at the same time we talked

[B]

a lot in the episode.

[A]

Exactly. And I almost doesn't feel right to talk about it. So interesting.

[B]

Oh, why?

[A]

It was just so wonderful. I would feel weird talking out of school about it. Like something about it was so intimate that it would feel weird to be talking on a. I don't know. Yeah, that's my reservation about it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, well, I love you.

[B]

I love you.

[A]

Love that episode.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Incred.