Marc Brackett (on emotional intelligence)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard — Marc Brackett on Emotional Intelligence

Date: August 12, 2026
Guest: Dr. Marc Brackett (Founding Director, Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence; author of "Permission to Feel" and "Dealing with Feeling")
Co-host: Monica Padman

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the profound impact of emotional intelligence (EQ)—how we recognize, understand, label, express, and regulate our emotions—on both personal growth and relationships. Dr. Marc Brackett shares his personal journey from a traumatic childhood to becoming a leader in emotional learning, discusses the science of EQ, and offers practical tools for cultivating it in ourselves and our communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Marc Brackett’s Early Life and Pivotal Moments

• Background: Grew up in northern New Jersey with complex family dynamics, including trauma, abuse, and parental loss.
• Abuse & Disclosure: From ages 5-10, Marc was abused by a neighbor—a Boys Club worker and family friend. He didn't disclose the abuse for five years due to fear, shame, and family pressures.
  • "My first book, ‘Permission to Feel,’ I go into a lot of detail about that...from the age 5 to 10, abused by my parents' best friend." (06:37)
• Uncle Marvin’s Role: His uncle Marvin became a safe, non-judgmental presence, prompting Marc’s first disclosure and changing the trajectory of his life.
  • “He just looks at me like no one else had ever looked at me before. And he’s like, hey, Mark, how you feeling?... There it goes. Everything comes out.” (10:41)
• The Uncle Marvin Effect: Only about one-third of people have someone like this; such figures can dramatically change life outcomes.

2. The Lasting Impact of Vulnerability and Shame

• Disclosure Fallout: In a well-intentioned but ill-fated move, Marc appeared on national TV to talk about his abuse, which led to further isolation and bullying.
  • "Now I'm like a pariah...it was horrific. It led to bullying, an eating disorder." (18:05)
• Identity & Family: Family reactions to his coming out as gay were complicated by conflations of his trauma and sexuality.
  • “My parents blamed it on my abuse...like, you just think you’re gay because you were abused. I’m like, well, actually, it’s a really different phenomenon.” (15:57)
• Parallel Fears: Dax, Monica, and Marc connect over childhood experiences of shame and exclusion, highlighting that while specifics differ (race, abuse, sexuality), many share a core fear: being ostracized for their secret pain.
  • “The driving force is still like, I’m not going to be part of my community from the shame.” (15:31, Dax Shepard)

3. The Development and Spread of SEL (Social Emotional Learning)

• Genesis: Inspired by Uncle Marvin’s approach, Marc co-authored a curriculum for emotional learning, eventually expanding into the “RULER” framework (see below).
  • “What I get accolades for…is what got my uncle fired.” (24:11)
• Pushback: SEL faces political resistance in some circles despite evidence of its benefits (e.g., being labeled ‘woke’ in negative discourse).
  • “What I find is that people have a misunderstanding of what it is and that they're against something that it's not.” (33:55)

4. Defining Emotional Intelligence

• Historical Context: Marc worked with Jack Mayer and Peter Salovey (the originators of “emotional intelligence”) at Yale.
  • “They wrote this theory called emotional intelligence that I was using to guide my curriculum.” (25:37)
• Core Definition:
  • "Emotional intelligence is using your emotions wisely to achieve your goals.” (26:08)
• RULER Framework:
  1. Recognizing emotions (in self & others)
  2. Understanding emotions (origins and differences)
  3. Labeling emotions (with precision)
  4. Expressing emotions (appropriately in context)
  5. Regulating emotions (managing feelings effectively)

[RULER Discussion — 34:26]

• "The acronym is RULER, so recognize emotions...understand why we have feelings...get super precise about our feelings...knowing how and when to express emotion...and regulating emotions." (34:28, paraphrased)

5. Deep Dive: Skills of Emotional Intelligence

a. Recognizing & Understanding

• Accuracy Gaps: People often misinterpret others’ feelings based on behavior and overestimate their own EQ skills.
  • “When we observe a behavior, we think we know how the person is feeling…But I could be feeling shocked, shame, I could be feeling sadness.” (37:47)
• Cultural & Personal Triggers: Different backgrounds (race, sexuality, culture) affect how people experience and react to injustice and exclusion.
• Shared Emotions: While no one can fully grasp another’s circumstance, emotions themselves have a shared human quality.
  • “I can relate to the shared emotion.” (42:44, Marc Brackett)

b. Labeling Emotions – Granularity

• The more specific the label (e.g., distinguishing stress from anxiety, envy from pressure), the better you can choose a coping strategy.
  • “Matching the emotion to the strategy is key.” (47:45)
• Mood Meter Tool: Developed to help with labeling, available in the “How We Feel” app.
  • “The idea behind it is that it takes the science of emotion...You cross these two things and you get yellow, red, blue and green.” (44:20)

c. Expression and Context

• Culture massively influences how emotions are expressed and processed.
  • “We have variances. Whether it’s downtown New York...Italy...Hong Kong...People don’t express emotions the same way.” (53:24)
• Examples: Cooking as love in Asian cultures, stoicism on Wall Street, expressive gestures in Italy.

d. Regulation (The Heart of “Dealing with Feeling”)

• The ability to prevent, shift, maintain, or enhance emotions through a variety of strategies.
  • “Emotion regulation is a set of goals and strategies.” (79:28)
• Core Strategies:
  • Preventative: Prepare for emotional triggers (e.g., positive self-talk before stress).
  • Deactivation: Breathing, mindfulness, removing oneself from triggering situations.
    • “When our nervous system is activated...my job is to deactivate.” (83:23)
  • Cognitive: Self-talk, spatial/temporal distancing (“observe, don’t absorb”), evaluating what really matters.
    • “The way I think about it is it allows you to observe and not absorb.” (86:22)
  • Co-Regulation: Mutual support; “never worry alone.” The power of presence versus fixing.
    • “Co-regulation is noticing and saying, I can be supportive to help this person manage their feelings...But I'm not going to fix them.” (88:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On determinism:

  • “I'm not a big fan of that because I think that's too deterministic...the real critical element in my childhood was basically a magic wand that happened, which was. I had an Uncle Marvin.” (09:57, Marc Brackett)

• On the mindset of emotional growth:

  • “Many of us believe that the way we respond to our emotions is an intrinsic part of ourselves, a fixed aspect of our personalities, which is simply not true.” (66:55, Marc Brackett)

• On emotional tools & political pushback:

  • "The irony is the people who normally are saying [SEL is ‘woke’]...are the people that have no emotional tools." (28:25, Monica Padman)
  • “How would you feel if your kids had good strategies to manage stress and anxiety?...Well, that's what it is.” (34:19, Marc Brackett)

• On "permission to feel":

  • "The challenge for most of my students is they don't feel they have the permission to feel...That's why they're dying to feel loved.” (51:06, Marc Brackett)

• On presence vs. fixing:

  • “No one’s asking you to solve their problems. No one’s asking you to fix them...Nobody wants to be fixed." (57:13, Marc Brackett)

• The double-edged sword of disclosure:

  • "You disclose it to get rid of the trauma, now I'm double traumatized." (19:00, Marc Brackett)

• On childhood judgment:

  • "From the moment you come out, it's like judgment, judgment, judgy, judgy, judgy. That's why...people are wanting in other people is non judgmental." (52:28, Marc Brackett)

• On co-regulation:

  • "Co-regulation is your kid is climbing a rock. The mother's a little nervous...I believe you can do it, just want to be super careful, so I'm going to come closer and be there for you. Totally different." (89:43, Marc Brackett)

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Timestamps for Core Segments

• Marc’s Early Life & Uncle Marvin — [05:36] to [12:55]
• Impact of Disclosure & Bullying — [16:38] to [19:17]
• SEL Curriculum & Political Pushback — [24:11], [27:41], [33:55]
• Defining Emotional Intelligence (RULER) — [25:14] to [26:27], [34:26]
• Labeling & Granular Emotions — [44:20], [45:07]
• Core Concepts in Regulation — [47:45], [79:28], [82:21], [86:19]
• Co-Regulation & Relationship Dynamics — [88:28] to [91:24]
• Closing Reflections & Uncle Marvin’s Legacy — [94:35] to [96:51]

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Conclusion & Takeaways

Dr. Marc Brackett argues that emotional intelligence is not only learnable, but essential—for thriving, overcoming adversity, and building meaningful lives and communities. Even subtle changes (such as precision in labeling emotions or being a non-judgmental ally) can have powerful effects. Marc’s story proves that, with the right support, anyone can “be their own Uncle Marvin,” and that emotional literacy is as vital as academic achievement.

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Books:

  • Permission to Feel
  • Dealing with Feeling

• App:

  • How We Feel (mood-tracking and labeling app, free for all users)

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A well-paced, deeply human episode blending science, lived experience, and practical advice—an ideal primer on emotional intelligence and why it makes all the difference.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Randall Shepherd Cobb Tex Hobbs and I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[Monica Padman]

That's boring.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. There's too many.

[Monica Padman]

You know what?

[Dax Shepard]

It's okay.

[Monica Padman]

It's okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It had already tipped in the first one. Today we have Mark Brackett. He is the founding director of the Yale center for Emotional Intelligence and a professor at Yale University.

[Mark Brackett]

He.

[Dax Shepard]

He's also a bestselling author with the book Permission to feel and of course the book. He's here to talk about dealing with feeling. Beautiful episode.

[Monica Padman]

I've already recommended it to a few people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he's a special dude. Including yourself. Yes. It's incredible. If anyone has a kid at a school where the curriculum is sel, social, emotional learning, that's Mark. Yeah, that's his curriculum. Anyways, please enjoy Mark Brackett. We get support from quints.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

We love that. And they do way more than clothes. They have bedding, cookware, bath essentials, travel must haves same deal and great quality.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Mark Brackett]

Nice to meet you, dad. Nice to meet you. Monica.

[Dax Shepard]

Where do you live, Mark?

[Mark Brackett]

I live in two places. I live in New York City.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Mark Brackett]

And I live in the countryside of Connecticut.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

Speaking of merch, you have a nice sweater on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you do have a nice sweater on. There's a lot of fun colors around the collar.

[Mark Brackett]

I actually was like, wait a minute here. I'm a little matchy matchy with my socks and my thing.

[Dax Shepard]

It's nice.

[Mark Brackett]

Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

And Monica's the perfect person to observe this. Cause she's a fashionista.

[Mark Brackett]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

I do like fashion. And look, the collar's kind of mad.

[Dax Shepard]

They kind of.

[Monica Padman]

I worked hard to get this collar made. They did not want to do it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're very stylish. You have beautiful Adidas and these Adidas are of the current trend. I've noticed the cooler people at my kids school are which.

[Mark Brackett]

Where do they go to school?

[Dax Shepard]

This charter down the street.

[Mark Brackett]

Okay. Because I work with thousands of schools.

[Dax Shepard]

Your curriculum is at this school. The SEL curriculum.

[Mark Brackett]

It is.

[Dax Shepard]

It is.

[Mark Brackett]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Dax Shepard]

Probably rare that you would be interviewed by someone whose child is the product of your brainchild.

[Mark Brackett]

Only two people. Chrissy Teigen. Oh, okay. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But let's start at the beginning, which would be New Jersey. My first question is how does one determine whether they're gonna spell Mark with a C or a K?

[Mark Brackett]

I mean, my hunch is that it's a Jewish thing actually.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay, that makes sense.

[Mark Brackett]

I don't know why I grew up Jewish and Mark in the Bible is with a K. I don't know, something like that. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And your dad was Jewish?

[Mark Brackett]

My dad is not Jewish.

[Dax Shepard]

He's not Jewish?

[Mark Brackett]

No. He converted.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he a charismatic man?

[Mark Brackett]

I wouldn't say charismatic. I don't know what I would say.

[Dax Shepard]

Depends what day it is.

[Monica Padman]

He's still alive?

[Mark Brackett]

No, they. Both my parents have died, so it's easy for me to write about them and talk about them.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I have that luxury too with my father.

[Mark Brackett]

A good guy, but charismatic. I wouldn't describe him.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, just salesman. That's generous.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, he wasn't. No, he wasn't. He was a repairman.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, he was a repair man. And tell me about your mom.

[Mark Brackett]

She also was a character. She grew up in the Bronx. My grandfather owned a liquor store. I think he was a crooked liquor store owner.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Mark Brackett]

One of his clients was Jake Lada. I remember.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, the boxer.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, from my mother's gathering. He would pour half the bottle and put water in it. Cuz he was so drunk that he could sell him half the bottle. Oh, okay. Yeah. My uncle was not known for his scruples.

[Dax Shepard]

But was she tough? If you're from the Bronx and dad owns a liquor store.

[Mark Brackett]

She was neurotic.

[Dax Shepard]

And how did that manifest?

[Mark Brackett]

I think she was more overly attentive to what wasn't happening for her.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Mark Brackett]

That's why I'm a psychologist.

[Monica Padman]

Research is me, sir.

[Mark Brackett]

Jasmine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We're off in a little bit to get some answers that eluded us in our childhood, but tell me about childhood.

[Mark Brackett]

I grew up in northern New Jersey. Two parents.

[Dax Shepard]

Does that mean it's close to Manhattan?

[Mark Brackett]

Yes. 25 minutes outside the Lincoln Tunnel. Little town called Clifton, next to a more poshy town called Montclair, which people have heard of.

[Monica Padman]

I've heard of that.

[Dax Shepard]

That's where Bobby Brown restored that amazing hotel, I believe. Right.

[Mark Brackett]

I think you're right. I don't go back too often. So yeah, two parents. Mom, dad, two brothers. They're technically half brothers. My first book, which is called Permission to Feel, I go into a lot of detail about that, which is that from the age 5 to 10, abused by my parents. Best friend, which was a neighbor. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Also a cub scout.

[Mark Brackett]

He was a worker at the Boys club where I would go after school and. Yeah, yeah. But that lasted, unfortunately, for five years.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. That's an eternity.

[Monica Padman]

That's double your life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Half your life.

[Monica Padman]

That's the amount of time. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

I was gonna say. Wait a minute.

[Monica Padman]

Sorry, I'm really not good at math.

[Mark Brackett]

But yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

At 10, you had already spent half of your life in this situation, in this dark secret.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, because I never disclosed it.

[Dax Shepard]

Can you remember the motivators of not disclosing? Was it that threats had been made that someone would get hurt or just your shame of being involved in some sense of respons responsibility for it all.

[Mark Brackett]

I think it's an all the above kind of thing. You know, I joke now after 20 years of therapy and a PhD in psychology, that my father, he also was from the Bronx. Originally from Manhattan, actually. But, you know, in the tough side of Manhattan, my father would say things like, when I was a teenager, to give you a clue into his charisma, like, son, I used to beat kids up like, you sure?

[Dax Shepard]

This is so comforting.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, okay, dad, we could talk about that in your parenting class.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. He really wanted you to be Alpha Munch.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. I don't know a lot about his childhood. My hunch is that it wasn't. I mean, I know it wasn't a healthy one. His father would like, burn cigarettes. My grandmother, I'm pretty sure was schizophrenic. I only remember just having a flashback. So when I was around maybe nine or ten, my grandmother, to make money, lived in a house in upstate New York, in Cooperstown, this little nowhere land. So I'm like nine years old. It's a spooky house. I mean, this house is not like a nice country house. It's like Spookville. And my grandmother used to take care of old people with mental illness to make money. So like Elsa would be sitting there rocking in the chair. I'm like nine years old.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a house of horrors.

[Mark Brackett]

Yes. Yeah. And my grandmother promised me a horse. And I'm like, okay, where's the horse? So that's a glimpse into my childhood. That's my father's side. My mother's side is a liquor store owner. And then, you know, my grandmother had terrible bipolar disorder and was treated with electric shock therapy. And my mother took her for that.

[Dax Shepard]

The immediate silver lining of this is on paper, no shot you're going to be riddled with mental health issues. You're going to repeat the cycle. And I'm not betting on you.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So like that's.

[Mark Brackett]

You are betting on me now, I hope. Immediately.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, immediately. The silver lining is like, yeah, it doesn't necessarily matter what ingredients go into it.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, that's, you know, as a psychologist who does research, part of me really doesn't like to do these predictive studies because if you would have like measured my social and emotional capacities, my mental health, my relationships, I had self hatred, I had an eating disorder, I was lonely, depressed, everything. And you would say, okay, that kid.

[Dax Shepard]

I know the percentages. 80% chance you're gonna be an addict. 55% chance of this educational achievement is this number.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. I'm not a big fan of that because I think that's too determin. Deterministic just to go back. Because the real critical element in my childhood was basically a magic wand that happened, which was. I had an Uncle Marvin. Yep. Who was a middle school teacher in the Catskill Mountains by day. By night, he was a band leader at the Concord Hotel. These famous Borsch belt hotels.

[Dax Shepard]

How fun. Did he play the clarinet? You just mind.

[Mark Brackett]

He was trumpet player.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, trumpet player.

[Mark Brackett]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So was he dazzling? He was in show business in some part.

[Mark Brackett]

You can't even picture this. Imagine, like the Robin Williams character in Dead Poet Society singing La Bamba at a Jewish resort in the Catskills who teaches social studies by day.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's. What's the Patrick Swayze movie?

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. Dirty Dancing.

[Dax Shepard]

It's Dirty Dancing meets Deadpool aside.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. So he happened to be going to grad school near my hometown in Jersey, was staying with us one summer. And we're sitting in the backyard and he just looks at me like no one else had ever looked at me before. And he's like, hey, Mark, how you feeling? How's it going? Yeah, there it goes. Everything comes out. I hate my life. I'm being abused.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Mark Brackett]

All this happened. It was a pretty crazy moment.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think what made him a good candidate in some ways was simply also the knowledge that he was gonna leave? Like he might take your secret with him?

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, I don't think so.

[Dax Shepard]

No. Okay.

[Mark Brackett]

Because I've now done research on these people. I call them the Uncle Marvins in our world. And I think he had a number of key qualities. Number one, he was non judgmental. He was so curious about my life. He just asked all these great questions. He was warm. Now, my parents were kind of warm, but my mother would be triggered with that. Like, you know, I could do that and she'd be triggered.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

That's funny.

[Monica Padman]

That's.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. My father was the same. Like, you know, who do you think you're talking to? And I always say that with a father who just tells you to toughen up all the time and a mother who's gonna have a breakdown no matter what you say. Like, I'd be bullied and I'm getting bullied. Oh, my God. I can't handle it. I'm gonna have a breakdown. I'm like, I'm the one having the breakdown. Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You're either too fragile to Exist or you need to be this hyper masculine, bulletproof figure.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. Uncle Marvin was different. He was warm. He was non judgmental, he listened. He was compassionate. I'm sharing with you like the results of 75 studies that I've done. After I wrote this thing called permission to feel. This term I kind of wrote about. I decided that was an anecdote. I decided that my uncle gave me permission to feel. And I was wondering how many people have an Uncle Marvin or an Aunt Maria or whoever, someone in their lives that create the conditions for them to be open and honest and truthful about their feelings. And what my research shows across the world is only a third of us

[Dax Shepard]

have someone like that in our life or in our past. Yeah. The only way I was able to say out loud that it had happened, my motivation was very much, I'm defective. Like, no one's gonna love me if they know this. 2. I'm gay. Where I grew up, at the time I grew up, that meant I was gay. I knew what the label of gay meant, which was ostracized from everyone in school. So yeah, the stakes of it felt really enormous. And then I carried that for I guess, probably 10 years. And then a girl in my senior year, while talking at a Burger Kington on the hood in the parking lot told me that she had been raped that summer by somebody. It was just so available and honest. It would have felt like a crime to not match her vulnerability.

[Mark Brackett]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

It would have felt really disingenuous. So then I told her, did you

[Mark Brackett]

have an Uncle Marvin?

[Dax Shepard]

I would say she was right. I think she's the person that got that out of me. I don't know when it comes out, if ever it comes out without her. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I think you were. He was. That's why she said it to him.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah, maybe I was.

[Mark Brackett]

You were. That person freaks out.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I was warm and nonjudgmental. Maybe she felt comfortable to tell me that. And then I felt like I owed that back to her. Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

What about for you? Did you have a Aunt Maria or Uncle Marvin?

[Monica Padman]

No, I wouldn't say anyone in my family could hear anything. Super sensitive.

[Dax Shepard]

Bonnie's first generation Indian.

[Monica Padman]

Y. Yeah. So they.

[Dax Shepard]

Emotions are probably to be avoided.

[Monica Padman]

Emotions are to be. Or they're scared. Like it's not that you can have positive emotions only. Yeah. Otherwise it feels like you're burdening them. Cuz then they're worried. It's kind of the same. It's not like it's still that. It's like, okay, I have to tell you something. And then you see the stress on there. They're trying. They're trying to be there, but they're like, okay, it's. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, no. Now they're so stressed about this thing. So, no, I don't think I did have any. I mean, I did have friends. I did have a lot of friendships. No, I didn't have capital T trauma to report.

[Mark Brackett]

I mean, everybody's got a story. I think that what's critical about this, going back to the research for a minute, is that it does predict a lot about our lives. And so I've done studies where it's like, you have one, you don't have one. What's different about your personality? What's different about your mental health? What's different about your life satisfaction? And I find huge differences.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Like 15% differences in people's purpose and meaning in life.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I add one thing which is kind of comical is like, you would think abuse is so specific, but at the core, you and I had the same fear, which is you were Indian, did not want anyone to know because that would lead to exclusion. I was secretly gay because I had been molested and was going to lead to exclusion. Like, funny enough, the driving force is still like, I'm not going to be part of my community from the shame. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And I was gay or am gay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And so I was. Even when I was, like, a teenager and I was having some courage to talk about it, my parents blamed it on my abuse. It's like, oh, you know, it's like, you just think you're gay because you were abused. I'm like, well, actually, it's like a really different phenomenon.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And it implies that what you have is damage.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Very complicated.

[Mark Brackett]

I mean, I grew up in New Jersey where the only gay guys that I had access to in terms of, like, knowing what it meant to be gay was, like, my mother's hairdresser. You know, it was like, flamboyant Teddy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And I'm like, I'm not Teddy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. There's two questions I have about your childhood. One is there was somehow media attention that followed the revelation.

[Mark Brackett]

Unfortunately.

[Dax Shepard]

This sounds terrible. Please, what happened?

[Mark Brackett]

So it just so happens that my parents had a friend who was a psychiatrist who happened to be writing a book about pedophilia. And I'm kind of the same today as I was when I was a kid. I was precocious. I got a lot of grit. I'm a Very like persevering kind of guy. However, it's like, you know, development matters. So like when my parents friend said to my parents, I'm going to be on television and I think Mark should join me to share his story.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Mark Brackett]

And my parents told me about it, which they probably shouldn't have done to begin with. I was like, I gotta do this. Yeah. I'm gonna protect other kids. I'm gonna tell.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And I did do it. 12. Yeah, dumb, dumb, dumb. I mean, national television, it was like a big station. I forget what it was back then. I think it was WPIX New York. And so here I am. And of course now my secret, which I had disclosed to my parents and to my neighborhood, which became also a really weird place to live because the pedophile, he got arrested but then returned home for a year before he went to prison. It's not like every day I'm driving, going to school, like seeing this guy's house. His kids were my friends. It was very awkward. And then it becomes on national television. Now I'm like a pariah. You know, just. It was terrible. No one realized, like, wait a minute, people don't know how to deal with this at home. Nevertheless, in the world, here's 12 year little Mark who's like going to like sixth grade. Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like, oh, forget it.

[Mark Brackett]

My friend's parents would like, don't play with Mark now.

[Dax Shepard]

You're a liability.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. I mean, honestly, it was horrific. It led to a lot of bullying, an eating disorder.

[Dax Shepard]

You had bulimia.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think we have a pretty common understanding that that is generally a search for control. Is that what it gave you?

[Mark Brackett]

I mean, I was so distorted with my self perception. I had body dysmorphia. I would look in the mirror and just see something that wasn't there. There was like a teenage kid next door who was very fit. And I just lived in envy of that. Everything just messed with my brain.

[Monica Padman]

Well, yeah, also if everyone's. The world is telling you you're bad or stay away from you, and you're like, but I'm trying to do the right thing. This is so confusing. For an adult, it would be confusing identity wise, let alone a kid.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but being applauded for your bravery, I'm sure. But then the results are like, nobody

[Mark Brackett]

wants trauma, like more double trauma. It's like I disclose it to get rid of the trauma. Now I'm double traumatized.

[Monica Padman]

So did Uncle Marvin tell you to tell your parents?

[Mark Brackett]

Oh, yes. That Happened like my brother was there. It became this like, moment where my father took a bat, was going to kill the man.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Mark Brackett]

My mother called the police. He got arrested immediately. Happened to be that one of our neighbors was a police officer who kind of helped facilitate all this. But then we realized, like, there were a lot of kids on my block. I was the only one who disclosed it, but other kids then. And then, like his nephew lived on our block. And he said, oh, my God, not again. Like, dude, like, you let your uncle who abused you move to our block and like, you've suppressed it, but now, like, we're all victims of it. That's not cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, again, that becomes. We just had an expert on who. She's the head of the Johns Hopkins center for studying this. And I have lived with the guilt of like, well, I never told anyone. I don't know if that dude went on to do that a bunch more. And a little bit relieved that she told me like 70 of sexual abuse towards minors is from other minors who don't necessarily ever do it again. Yeah, I was comforted by that. Like, well, God, I hope that was the situation because I have the guilt.

[Mark Brackett]

Because yours was a teenager.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep.

[Mark Brackett]

I had that too, actually. So another neighbor also decided that that was another opportunity.

[Dax Shepard]

I tried to tell Monica this. I don't know if it's where I grew up or the era I grew up on, but there was so much fucking perversion happening all around at all times.

[Mark Brackett]

It's still. By the way, the data are terrible in terms of how much abuse there is. Some of us get through it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And I dedicate my career, my life, my health, my wellness to my uncle because he gave me something to focus on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Which was basically how to be open with my emotions and then how to regulate them.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. I'm surprised you went to Rutgers. I might have wanted to get many, many states away.

[Mark Brackett]

It was because it was state and cheap.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So you went there and you did undergrad there.

[Mark Brackett]

Did undergrad there. Majored in psychology and Spanish. I'm like one of those people that has a very non traditional career path. I taught martial arts.

[Dax Shepard]

What version?

[Mark Brackett]

It's called hopkido. So I got a fifth degree black belt and hapkido. Became very, very competitive and taught it for years. And then I also sold skincare with my mother, which I'm not sure why. I just told that to millions of people. And then in nutrition products. And that was a whole.

[Dax Shepard]

That was a multi level marketing company. I Imagine. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

I was like, I'm gonna be a diamond.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. And while you were studying for GRE, your mom passed.

[Mark Brackett]

Yes. Bombed the GREs. Got rejected from graduate school the first year. All of them. Nobody accepted me. I'm sitting with my mother, 23, in a diner in New Jersey. She was not feeling well. I later learned that she had pancreatic

[Dax Shepard]

cancer, which is a very accelerated.

[Mark Brackett]

She died four months later. I'm selling skincare. I graduated college. I am teaching karate. I'm teaching aerobics. I'm teaching all these things and trying to figure out who I am, what I'm doing in my life. I had a girlfriend for many years, and my mother just looks at me at this breakfast table, and she's like, your father and I have determined that you're a loser.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Tough love time.

[Mark Brackett]

Oh, yeah. And I looked at it and I said, go fuck yourself. And I couldn't help it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And she runs out of the diner screaming and crying, literally having a total breakdown. She's driving the car around in circles in the parking lot.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Mark Brackett]

I run after my mother. No, mom, it's gonna be okay. I promise you. I'm not a loser. It was a really big moment in my life, of course. Who do I call Uncle?

[Dax Shepard]

Uncle Marvin. Round two, sitting down.

[Mark Brackett]

Not kidding, though. It's like road trip to Fort Lauderdale. Cause he had to retire there. And actually, I really bonded for a second time with my uncle. And we just started talking through things, and I had to get out of my situation. It was eye opening. It wasn't like the most emotionally intelligent way of motivating your kid.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Would not recommend, but.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. It could have been done with a little bit more compassion. But anyway, it did force me to go to Florida to be with my uncle for a little bit. And that's when I decided to pull him out of retirement and we would write a book together. I was like, 24. What do I know about writing books or curricula? My uncle is in his mid-60s, retired. And just a little side story about this. So my uncle was this incredible person, not only for me, but for his community for kids. But his program was so provocative in the 1970s and 80s that the parents forced him to retire. There's moments where I walk around, you know, 5,000 schools use our program now. We've reached 10 million children across the world. And I think what I get accolades for, what I get to talk with you about, is what got my uncle fired.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's what he was pursuing was some kind of emotional education.

[Mark Brackett]

He realized it was a missing link in education, and he was really ahead of his time in terms of this field called SEL, which wasn't there 50 years ago now. And so I pull him out of retirement, we start writing this curriculum. And then I realized, like, I have no credibility.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Mark Brackett]

Like, who's gonna buy a book?

[Dax Shepard]

You need to be anointed.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, I need to get a PhD.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And so I decided to apply for my PhD. I just thought, oh, there's these researchers. One is at Yale, one is at New Hampshire. I wrote to them both. They both agreed to meet with me for lunch. The guy from Yale said to me, you're a great guy, but you're never going to get in. And the guy from New Hampshire said, I'll give you early admission. Yeah, I guess I'm going to New Hampshire. That was also a shock.

[Dax Shepard]

That wasn't John Mayer that you met with? It was.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so John Mayer became your supervisor. And tell me a little bit about John Mayer and his contribution to this. And I think now would be a great time to define emotional intelligence.

[Mark Brackett]

Good idea. So John Mayer, or Jack as he goes by, do you think they've added

[Dax Shepard]

the D to his name on Wikipedia because of John Mayer the musician? Did he always go by John D. Mayer, or is that.

[Mark Brackett]

Academics always add that, but maybe. And then the other person is Peter Salovey, who became the president of Yale. These two guys wrote this theory called emotional intelligence that I was using to guide my curriculum.

[Dax Shepard]

What was novel about this term emotional intelligence? What were they doing? How were they approaching it that gave it validity historically.

[Mark Brackett]

I mean, you think about it. When I say the word emotional, what comes to mind?

[Dax Shepard]

Quick, you always think of women.

[Mark Brackett]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

It's very gendered, feminine.

[Mark Brackett]

What else?

[Dax Shepard]

I think, like, loss of control.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, right. Angry, sad.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. Like hysteria.

[Dax Shepard]

Hysteria.

[Mark Brackett]

Emotional. Like you can't handle it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, that's the opposite of emotional intelligence.

[Dax Shepard]

That's emotional stupidity.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. Or emotional bankruptcy.

[Dax Shepard]

Whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Emotional intelligence is using your emotions wisely to achieve your goals. I mean, that's a broad definition. Now we get specific. And this is where my research has gone. So Peter and Jack wrote this theory. They proposed a set of skills, and then what I've been doing for the last 25, 30 years is kind of fine tuning it all really quick.

[Dax Shepard]

So the traditional intelligence has metrics, or we attempt to. Right. We have IQ tests. We have different tests to Assess the aptitude of your intellect. Did they propose a scale to even evaluate? So how does that scale work?

[Mark Brackett]

So let me tell you the skills, and I'll tell you how they measured.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Mark Brackett]

So the first skill is about perceiving or recognizing emotions. So I'm looking at your facial expression right now. I'm looking at you. I'm like, is this going well? Is this not going well? Right. It's self awareness and social awareness. Obviously, coming from my background, I'm more vigilant than maybe other people would be because I got to like, you know, am I going to get beat up here? Or, you know, am I safe? And we're doing that subconsciously. From the moment we wake up and we have a feeling in our bodies and our minds to the walking into the set to going to a school, our brains are making predictions.

[Dax Shepard]

It's incredible. It's astounding. We can do it well, but a

[Mark Brackett]

lot of us don't do it so well.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

It's like this underrepresented area of intelligence or intelligence that we don't give enough attention to. Hence the work that we do in schools to try to make this part of the curriculum, which, by the way, if we want to talk about that, is so much pushback right now on this really.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really political.

[Mark Brackett]

It's been polarized.

[Monica Padman]

Why? Cause people say it's like it's woke.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's woke.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, I'm not. It is not woke.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it seems to overlap with this endlessly progressive. Let's all talk about our feelings. No one's gotta be tough and just fucking show up and do the job. I get it. It's not hard for me to lock into they're feeling.

[Mark Brackett]

Yes. And the thing is that the way you said it is not what it is.

[Dax Shepard]

Correct. As someone who's observed it in my children. Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

That's not what it is. That's not. I don't want kids. No.

[Dax Shepard]

It reduces fragility. Funny enough, the fear is we're making all these kids so fragile that they can't even function. But yes, the opposite is true. This makes you incredibly resilient.

[Monica Padman]

And the irony is the people who normally are saying it and saying it in that way are the people that have no emotional tools.

[Mark Brackett]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Generally because.

[Mark Brackett]

And are hiding something scarier than anything else.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I think they're scared in a way that is. They're not locked into what it's like to have emotional tools.

[Dax Shepard]

I think to be compassionate to those people. Yeah. When they Consider being emotional. They have the sense that to do so would be to completely destroy them permanently and there'd be no coming back. So I feel that's a person's carrying tools a tremendous amount. Again, I always say the dude in the pickup truck that's jacked up with the nut sack hanging out the back, that flips me off. That is my hardest guy to have the compassion for. And it is the one that needs the most compassion.

[Mark Brackett]

It's funny you say that. So I'm giving a speech. I do these reunion speeches at the university all the time. There's hundreds of alumni. I love doing these speeches. I can just joke with all the graduates. And then I'm driving home. I'm literally on Route 95 and this massive truck drives by with a flag and it says, fuck feelings.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Like you can't make it up. I'm like, did they know I was giving the speech 15 minutes ago? Anyway, fuck feelings. And it's like, really?

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking that your keys are actually in your hand before you close the car door. Have you ever stood in a parking lot full of sun, staring at your keys, sitting right there on the seat, 4 inches away and completely useless to you? It's a very specific kind of humbling. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast reliable help when you need it, add an Allstate roadside plan. Today you're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary. Insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North America Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club Incorporated and Allstate affiliate.

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[Mark Brackett]

Here's what I find, and I want to go back to the skills in a second, but what I find is that people have a misunderstanding of what it is and that they're against something that it's not. So when I meet people who are against the work, I just say, well, what do you think it is? And then I say, well, let me share with you what it is. How would you feel if your kids had good strategies to manage stress and anxiety? Definitely want that from my kid. How would you feel if your kid had a better vocabulary so you can describe things and write better? That's important. I said, well, that's what it is.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Mark Brackett]

So, okay, first skill. By the way, the acronym is ruler, so recognize emotions. Paying attention to other people's emotions. Face, body, voice, behavior. Paying attention to my own emotions. What's going on in my head. What's going on in my body. Boom.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm so sorry to interrupt.

[Mark Brackett]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

It just crossed my mind. We know that for autism. Autism, I'm good.

[Mark Brackett]

I don't mind. It doesn't bother me.

[Dax Shepard]

You can diagnose me as ADHD at

[Mark Brackett]

the end of this if you want. I have it, too. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

We know that for autistic kids and adults, it is harder for them to read some of the cues that would let them know what the other person's emotions are. Do they have the same difficulty identifying their own?

[Mark Brackett]

Oftentimes, yes. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So that's a struggle for.

[Mark Brackett]

It is a struggle which probably causes

[Monica Padman]

some of the outp bursts and stuff.

[Mark Brackett]

It bottles up. We've worked with many schools that serve children on the spectrum, and we've had great results. You just have to go slower, use more cues. What's interesting is that oftentimes interventions have this weird thing, oh, we're going to make the kid less autistic. That's not our goal. Our goal is to help the child be who they are, but have slightly more skills in that space.

[Dax Shepard]

There's also this very annoying thought, which is like anything short of perfection is proof that it doesn't work. So even if you take the autistic kid to one on the scale to three, their life experience is going to be measurably better.

[Mark Brackett]

Completely. I live in the world of everybody's gut. To have the perfect everything.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

All right. Recognizing emotions. We're good with that one.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Mark Brackett]

All Right. Next one is understanding of emotions. So this is really trying to understand why we have feelings and where they come from and the differences between and among them. So I'm gonna give you a little test of emotional intelligence. What is the psychological difference between anger and disappointment?

[Dax Shepard]

What's the psychological difference?

[Monica Padman]

Anger is outward and disappointment is inward.

[Mark Brackett]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's really good. That's a good one.

[Mark Brackett]

It's good.

[Monica Padman]

It's not correct. I gotta go.

[Mark Brackett]

It's a b. Sorry.

[Monica Padman]

Fuck.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but on that same train, I would say anger, generally you assign responsibility. Something outside yourself and then the other one you're responsible for. Yeah. It's like a shame.

[Mark Brackett]

No, shame is shame.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess it can come externally.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You can be disappointed in others, I guess, too.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe it's okay. I want to keep. I want to disappear.

[Mark Brackett]

You want to be perfect?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I do.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

In fact, ideally before the other one is perfect. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

There's like a sadness and disappointment. You let me down. Like an expect, maybe expectation.

[Mark Brackett]

So disappointment comes from unmet expectations. Anger comes from perceived injustice.

[Dax Shepard]

Perceived injustice.

[Mark Brackett]

Like, that's not fair.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Okay. Now you have kids, obviously.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

If I come home from school, I hate school. How am I feeling?

[Dax Shepard]

I would say frustrated. Something is frustrating.

[Mark Brackett]

How do you know bodily response?

[Dax Shepard]

I just think. Cause it's. Yeah, it's all consuming. Anger is like physical response. Developing condition you have temporarily. Yeah. Or it's just like your amygdala's on fire. Right. You're not running anything through the frontal lobe.

[Mark Brackett]

You're assuming that from my behavior?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Mark Brackett]

This is where emotional intelligence comes in really handy. Because we tend to overly diagnose emotion from behavior. When we observe in a behavior, we think we know how the person is feeling based on their behavior.

[Dax Shepard]

Got you.

[Mark Brackett]

And I could be feeling shocked, shame. I could be feeling sadness. But I'm a boy who's gay. I don't want anybody to know and I'm feeling inferior or whatever and I'm just going to look tough or I'm going to try my best to look tough. And you're going to be my dad and you're going to get triggered by my anger expression. And then it's going to be a whole thing until you can lower your emotional temperature to be more present with me and help me lower mine and get to know the why and the understanding. You're not gonna know that it's actually someone spit on me on the bus and I hate myself and I'm afraid to go to school tomorrow or Whatever it is, here's the research. We grossly overestimate our skills.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

You know, I think I'm great at this. And it's like, well, let me give you some feedback. And so you think about how many people misperceive our facial expressions, our body language. I get misperceived all the time. People always think, like, there's something wrong when they come near me. And I'm like, I'm actually pretty. But I think because of being a scientist, I'm literally always thinking about stuff, and I make weird facial expressions. So when I'm walking, I'm not, like, walking like. You know, I'm walking like, huh. And people are like, what's wrong? Nothing. I'm just thinking about something.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're, like, grinding through a thought a lot of times.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, even worse, I think, is like, yeah, you have what you interpreted, which is often wrong. But then I think even worse than that is you immediately run it through your narrative. So it's like your kid comes home frustrated. Your overarching fear for me is like, oh, my kids don't know how good they have it. They've grown up in abundance. And I'm so fearful they're not right.

[Mark Brackett]

They have no gratitude.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they have no gratitude, no understanding. So anytime they're unhappy, it sends the alarm bells that that other thing's happening. So my inclination is to figure out a time where, like, oh, well, no. Were you inconvenienced? You know, did you have to wait in a line? You know, my fear of what could go wrong is likely what I'm going to attribute it all to, ultimately, like, attribution error.

[Mark Brackett]

That's what it is. It's attribution errors. It's a misattribution of emotion. And so this skill of recognizing other people's emotions is tricky because a, we hide our emotions a lot. So understanding emotion is understanding the causes of emotion, the consequences, the differences. And I think the key here is, you know, going back to our stories of growing up as a gay guy, there's a lot of homophobia in our society. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, God.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Especially when we grow up.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. And even still right now. And so as a gay guy, I might be more triggered by homophobic jokes than you would be. Or you would be right.

[Monica Padman]

Totally.

[Mark Brackett]

You might be more triggered by race stuff.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I am. Yeah. We get. We do get into it. We do get into it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I have the luxury of pretty much thinking everything's funny because I'm a very tall white straight.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. You're good.

[Dax Shepard]

They rarely come for us in the jokes.

[Monica Padman]

We've gotten in a lot of fights about, like, what's mean and what's not mean.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What's mean on something.

[Monica Padman]

It's really interesting because, like, for me, I'm like, that's mean. And he's like, it's not mean. Yeah. He's like, nobody's here to be upset about it. But for me, it's so deep. Being called something or made fun of

[Dax Shepard]

in that way, even without your knowledge is the ultimate fear. Are they being nice to me here? But when they're by themselves, they're like, she's so brown.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I just, like, put myself in every. Even if it's not a race joke, but it's just like something. I'm just like, no, you can't do that.

[Mark Brackett]

And I think what you're getting at here is the core of understanding. So going back to anger, perceived injustice. My husband is Latino. He's dark skinned. And so we've been in situations. We were in a restaurant in Connecticut and this is the best. We're getting set to sit down and the host says, where'd you get your tan?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, boy.

[Mark Brackett]

And he's like, my mother.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Mark Brackett]

I mean, he's dark.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

He is not, you know, like a wasp who has a tan in Connecticut. Anyway.

[Dax Shepard]

He's the real deal. He's what us whites are going for with that tan.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, exactly. Now he's an immigrant, so his relationship to the American kind of thinking around race is different. Even though he's my husband, we've been together 32 years. Long time. I cannot relate to what it feels like to be a man of his skin color walking around a store in Connecticut and being monitored. That doesn't happen to me. Just like. Well, he can't really, because he's also gay. He's got double.

[Dax Shepard]

But I was gonna say I a little bit reject that.

[Mark Brackett]

Say more.

[Dax Shepard]

You cannot experience those exact details. Correct. But those human emotions, you can.

[Mark Brackett]

You're making a good point, which is that I can relate to the shared emotion.

[Dax Shepard]

You've been in a locker room with a bunch of straight dudes that somehow are speaking some language so organically, and you're like, what the fuck?

[Mark Brackett]

Correct. So I can't relate to the experience, but I can relate to the emotion

[Dax Shepard]

associated with the experience, which are unifying, which is beautiful. Humans have the same emotion.

[Mark Brackett]

And that's why it's so important to get at the emotion level. I can't talk about what's going on in your head when someone's monitoring you as a person of color, just like you as a straight guy. You have some background in this, but you're not going to feel the same way. I'm going to feel or have the same experience psychologically as I'm going to have when I hear people making jokes about Jews or homophobic stuff. But we can have a shared emotional experience and that's what emotional intelligence really at the understanding level is, is. I need to have empathy and compassion and curiosity about what makes you feel the way you do. So I can be a better friend.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, totally.

[Mark Brackett]

Otherwise if I'm like, well why would you feel that way? That's not emotional intelligence. So then there's the L labeling emotions getting super precise about our feelings. And we have a tool that we call the mood meter which you may have seen, it's in schools. That's a two by two grid of colors to help people describe their feelings. Actually, quick side note is during the pandemic the co founder and CEO of Pinterest reached out to me and he's like, I read your book and I really would love to work with you on an app. And so we created an app called how we Feel that is free forever. We have 3 million people using it now every month.

[Monica Padman]

That's incredible.

[Mark Brackett]

And it is a tool to help build emotional self awareness. And so it's fantastic. Check it out. But the idea behind it is that it takes the science of emotion. So emotions have pleasantness associated with them and they have energy or activation levels. And you cross these two things and you get yellow, red, blue and green. Yellow is high energy, pleasant like happy, excited. Green, pleasant but low in energy, like calm, content, blue, low energy but unpleasant, sad, disappointment, lonely. And then the red is the upper left which is high energy, unpleasant, anger or anxiety. And so we put 144 words to map that out with their definition so people can build their emotional self awareness. And the key of labeling is just precision. Let's try one. Can we try another one?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Anxiety, stress, pressure, fear. What's the difference?

[Dax Shepard]

Anxiety is I think unique in that or specific in that you are very fearful of the outcome of something which is unknown. Stress to me can be much more predictive. I've had the same job for 35 years. Oh, I'm in one right now. Like we always have to stockpile this time of year so we can have a vacation. It is what it is. But I already have had the experience of doing it. I know I'll get through it. So it's like I don't have anxiety about it, but I have the stress of the workload. What were the other two?

[Monica Padman]

Pressure and fear.

[Dax Shepard]

Pressure and fear.

[Monica Padman]

I think there's no difference.

[Mark Brackett]

I want you to get your PhD. I thought that was.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that was a trick question.

[Monica Padman]

I did, I did. I thought it was a trick.

[Dax Shepard]

Be too clever.

[Mark Brackett]

I mean, that's what a lot of people say. They think I'm like Mr. Neurotic emotion labeling Guy.

[Dax Shepard]

And then pressure, to me is just stakes. It means it's something of value. It could be an indicator that you value this thing. That's why you feel the pressure of it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I don't think pressure is negative necessarily. No, it could be, but it doesn't have to be.

[Mark Brackett]

Okay. And then fear.

[Dax Shepard]

Fear to me is related to anxiety in that it's generally an outsized feeling about something that when you're in. You'll just walk through. There's some asymmetry to fear.

[Mark Brackett]

Let's get really. Let's get to the.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's get granular.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah, that's the word. So anxiety actually is the word emotion. Granularity. So anxiety is about uncertainty, perceived uncertainty around the future. I get anxious when I can't make the predictions, what's gonna happen. Stress is having too many demands and not enough resources. Can't do it all.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm finite.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. Pressure. Something at stake is dependent upon your behavior. So the pressure for me to get through this podcast, I'm not anxious about it necessarily. I'm not stressed. It's pressure gonna perform. And fear is impending danger. Now, why does this matter?

[Dax Shepard]

I would say that most people are really prone to label those things interchangeably.

[Mark Brackett]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

And all four have much different solutions.

[Mark Brackett]

That's the key. That. For yourself, for your loved one, for your kids, for your colleague, really getting at that level of granularity will help you have a solution. So, for example, if you're anxious about something, you're going to ruminate, Likely, you can go for the walk. You come back and ruminate. You can take your deep breaths, you can do your yoga, you do your downward dog, and you'll still come back. Like, what's gonna happen?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

So matching the emotion to the strategy is key. That's my new book called Dealing with Feeling, which is to help people make that connection. Because most people even. I'll give you an example, Yale. All these bright people, all my students said they were stressed. I was like, come on. Stressed. I mean, I had empathy because they were 78% of the time feeling that way. But at the same time, I didn't believe it was actually stressed. What do you think the number one emotion actually was?

[Monica Padman]

Anxiety.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that would be my guess. You're at this really interesting phase of your life where they're giving you four years to figure out exactly what you want to do for the rest of your life.

[Monica Padman]

And the future is very uncertain.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And how does one know if they've picked the right lane? It's all about the future. And did I pick right and am I rising to the occasion?

[Mark Brackett]

And the answer is none of the above.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, that was a trick.

[Dax Shepard]

That was a trick you finally got.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You knew he was going to slide a trick in.

[Mark Brackett]

Sorry. The answer is envy. Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Envy was.

[Mark Brackett]

They're mislabeling stress for envy because they're sitting in class thinking you study for fewer hours and get better grades. Your father's famous, your mother has connections to Wall Street. All they're doing is making social comparisons about physical appearance, about. You were the real valedictorian. And so I did this research with them where I had them journal about all their feelings and came back and found that the real understanding of emotion showed up. It was envy, not stress or pressure. And I think that's important because what you would do to manage envy is way different than what you would do to manage anxiety or stress. So the core of my kind of newer work is really helping people make the connection between their emotional experience and the selection of the best strategy to regulate it. Okay, crazily, what do you think the number one hoped for emotion is? Like, how do you want to feel at school, at the university?

[Monica Padman]

What their answer would be? Yes.

[Mark Brackett]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, would they be honest enough to say, I think everyone just wants to be adored?

[Mark Brackett]

It's close. It's loved.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Love. I mean, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

But that one really surprised the envy one didn't shock me because, you know, everything's about social comparison these days. But the love one was a little sad for me, especially on college campuses. So I did some more research about that, and here's the sad part, which is that the number one reason was they said they felt manufactured.

[Dax Shepard]

They felt manufactured.

[Mark Brackett]

They felt like their parents, their school they went to to get to be at a place like Yale. They just needed to, like, perform. Perform, like, play this sport, do this instrument, get this thing. Get this thing. SAT scores, GPAs, you know, traveled to this country, and they felt like they didn't have an identity, which is unbelievable.

[Dax Shepard]

And it would be very easy to assume that you were loved because of those accomplishments.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

As opposed to, like, you're just intrinsically loved because your parents.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. They feel it's all extrinsic.

[Dax Shepard]

That's heartbreaking.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But very predictable for like these elite schools.

[Mark Brackett]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Also, don't you think that's everyone's answer

[Mark Brackett]

in the whole world for different reasons? How do I want to feel in my marriage? Definitely loved. But how do I want to feel at work? I don't want to feel loved. That's too much for me.

[Dax Shepard]

You want to feel respect.

[Mark Brackett]

I want to feel valued, appreciated, supported, connected.

[Monica Padman]

But some people do want to feel loved at work. They want.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. And that's not.

[Monica Padman]

That's probably not healthy, but if you're

[Dax Shepard]

going to a college where 2.5 was the average admittance. No, that's not how your. Your parents picked other things. They were like, tony's so funny at a party. He's so good at talking to adults. He's a great athlete. Soon, in absence of great accomplishments, the things your parents will call out about you are probably more character driven.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which feels more substantive or more intrinsic? Which is like, they'll say, he's so nice to kids or he's so good with, you know. Whereas if your kid just got a 4.0 and got a 1800, that's what you're gonna hear them tell their friends.

[Monica Padman]

Well, hopefully you'd hear them say, like, they're a hard worker, like something still intrinsic.

[Mark Brackett]

That's what you want. So going back to what we started talking about with Uncle Marvin and permission to feel is that the challenge for most of my students is they don't feel. They have the permission to feel. That's why they're dying to feel loved. And most of them, and most people in my research say they feel judged from the moment they came out of the womb. Like, you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too dark, you're too light, your nose is too big, your nose is too short, those pants don't fit you right from the moment you come out. It's like judgment, judgment, judgy, judgy, judgy. That's why the number one characteristic that people are saying they're wanting in other people is non judgmental.

[Monica Padman]

That makes sense.

[Mark Brackett]

So we got through recognition, self awareness, social awareness, understanding why am I feeling this way, Understanding how people feel. So then the understanding, the labeling, the expression. This is where the cultural differences really show up. Where it's kind of knowing how and when to express emotion with different people. Across contexts and across cultures. My work is Translated now to 33 languages. And so I've gone all over the world. And we have a center in Italy that does trainings in all throughout Tuscany and Italy. And, you know, I go there, Marco, where have you been? All of it. I'm like, oh, I love Italy. You know, I go to Hong Kong, marks on, you know, bows to me. I go to Wall Street. I always joke about this because I gave this talk at a big hedge fund in New York City, and the guy came out in his Versace suit, you know, the perfect tie, the perfect side comb. And he's like, hello, Dr. Breckett. You know, it's like, I need a little testosterone for this presentation.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

We have this. Whether it's downtown New York or whether it's in England or in Italy or in Hong Kong, there are differences. And let's just acknowledge that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

People don't express emotions the same way. Like, in India, I've had a lot of Indian students. And one of the things that I found interesting, and I don't know if you could relate to this in education in India, there's not necessarily a lot of asking you for your perspectives. There's a lot of sage on the stage. You are the learner, I am the knower, and I do that.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting.

[Mark Brackett]

And so when I have graduate students and I'm like, it's time for you to come up with a research project. Like, I've done this already. And they struggle for the first while of, like, I have the autonomy to, like.

[Monica Padman]

Right. They want to be told what to do. That's interesting. I get.

[Mark Brackett]

Can you relate to that or no?

[Monica Padman]

Well, my mom grew up here, so I have to take her out of it. I would say I think my dad. I don't know, he really has a lot of opinions and is fine sharing them, but he's also pretty meticulous. He's an engineer. He just retired. So, yes, he is also good at following instructions. Very good at it. He is kind of an anomaly.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll tell you my experience over the last 11 years being around Monica, and the thing that I was completely wrong about and shattered my naive realism, which was, I'm like your dad. I don't care where he's from. He would love for you to call him and say, I love you so much. And she's like, you really don't understand. That would just make him quite scared. Why is she sharing this? Something must be wrong. This is so out of the pattern of what's normal. It would just elicit fear. And I have tried to intervene. I like flew them secretly to a live show we did so they could watch her on stage. And I had all these expectations of how that would to go. And at the end of the whole thing, I had to go, yeah, ma', am, you got to accept it's different. You want there to be this universal thread that's not. Stops there. Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And that's okay.

[Monica Padman]

That's what I was.

[Mark Brackett]

I'm not judging it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I kept telling him. I was like, it doesn't mean they don't love me or I don't love them. And we aren't confused.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

We aren't like, oh, if they don't call me and tell me this, do they love me? We know you don't. From the outside, it might look like it might. It's not there, but we know it's there. I don't know. It was very cultural.

[Mark Brackett]

I've been to all over Asia and what I found is that in certain cultures, just cooking together is a symbol of love. That was the last thing that would happen in my household is like, let's chop lettuce, do whatever. Right. Right. You know, again, the point of this is that how we express emotions does vary by personality. I'm an introvert. People think I'm outgoing. Cause I do a lot of public speaking. Even here. I'm traveling for some work here in la. I'm not gonna go out. It's not my thing. I get drained from it. My brain is so occupied in what I do and what I think about that. To unwind. I want to go to a hot yoga class.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

I want to have a glass of wine with a friend. I don't want to be that social. It's taken me years to really own that. And that's part of the work on emotional intelligence. Knowing my personality will help me find better strategies too. Again, expressing emotions, you can express them in art. You can express them in spoken word. You can express them through music. But we gotta get it out. Unexpressed emotions end up being like a debt.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have someone we love so much who has the most paralysis around the expressing. And it's so painful to watch. I can feel the clamped tightness at the thought of it. Yeah. And it's heartbreaking.

[Monica Padman]

That's really heartbreaking.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. And so that's part of being what I call an emotion. Ally is trying to figure out your way in to give them that opening. It is hard, but sometimes Just doing nothing is something in terms of presence, by the way, going back to this kind of emotion ally thing, which is the Uncle Marvin in a psychology term, is that a lot of parents, a lot of people at work, their excuse is, I don't know how to do it. I don't want to open this up because it's going to open up and I'm not going to handle it or I'm afraid that I'm going to look bad or things of that sort. And I say, let's go back to the characteristics. Non judgmental, listener, warmth, compassion. No one's asking you to solve their problems. No one's asking you to fix them. Nobody wants to be fixed. As a matter of fact, in my research, no one ever says that their Uncle Marvin or Aunt Maria was a fixer or an advice giver. And that's really important for people who are listening because there's an inhibition to showing up because you think you actually have to do something that's going to change that other person's experience when that's not what they're actually looking for.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so the last one is regulating. And to me that's where your book dealing with feeling really comes into play. This last component of ruler, and that's the big one.

[Mark Brackett]

I'll just share with you what happened for that. So here I am. It's the pandemic. So Horacio is the name of my husband. His mother's name is Irene. She lives in Panama. And my colleague was getting married March 7th of 2020.

[Monica Padman]

Oh boy.

[Mark Brackett]

And so Irene loves this colleague of mine, Robin. And so we fly Irene up from Panama to come to the wedding. Gonna come for a couple weeks. Lo and behold, March 13, every flight to Panama gets canceled. I think she was scheduled to go home on the 15th or 16th. So we're like, all right, whatever, you know, we'll get through this. Eight months later. Eight months with your mother in law? Yeah, she couldn't get home, there was no flights. And so about three months in, she's 81, she was very upset. She had a dog and a parrot. We had to figure out how to deal with. I was out of my mind, busy because everybody's freaking out and you know, masks and no masks and anxiety and fear. And Horacio is a filmmaker, he's a cinematographer. And so he's like out of work because nobody's making out on a movie set, you know, in March and April of 2020. So it gets really kind of ugly in my house. Everybody's tense and One night my mother in law looks at me and she says, you know, are you really the director of the center for Emotional Intelligence?

[Dax Shepard]

Cause you'd been being shitty.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. And I'm like, you know, I love you, but not tonight. It's going down. We were just at each other's throats. And then of course, soon it's late, go to bed. I went to bed thinking to myself, mark, you're the director of the freaking center for Emotional Intelligence. Like, how is it possible that you cannot regulate? Yeah, like how could you not apply your own stuff? For 25 years you've been teaching this, writing papers. And I realized I really was struggling and I was not eating healthy, I was not exercising. Like I was, I was really negative. And obviously it was a pandemic. It was weird, but nevertheless I thought I could apply my stuff to that moment. And I was really not doing well. And so I woke up the next morning, I said, I'm going to start a study. I'm going to study thousands of people around the country and find out what they're doing with their feelings and how are they doing. And what I found was people were not doing well. Only 10% of people felt like they had good strategies. Most of the people will say they were drinking, they were eating, they were avoiding, they were being self saboteurs, they were scrolling on Instagram and social media. And it was really eye opening for me that people were desperate for healthy strategies. And because I was so overwhelmed and I'm an academic and I really had no place to go, I'm like, what I could do is I could lock myself in a room, do research and write a book. And so that was my strategy.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do. Well, Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas. But he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing. And Squarespace was that bridge. Maybe you're in the same spot, you've been developing something, a business, a skillset, a body of work. And it's been private, it's been yours. But at some point you're ready to put it out there. And that transition from private to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step. Beautiful templates built in, SEO, email campaigns, scheduling analytics, everything you need to go from. I've been working on this to here it is. Come find me. All in one place. No code, no stitching together a bunch of different tools. So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might be it. Head to squarespace.comdax for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is supported by Helix.

[Monica Padman]

So I've had my Helix mattress for a few years now and I still love it just as much as the first night. That says a lot, because a good night's sleep is very important to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Sleep is everything. And what's great about Helix is that it's not a guessing game with finding the right mattress, because they have over 20 models so you can find the one that actually fits how you sleep. And with that summer heat upon us, Helix has cooling upgrades that can get you the best rest, even on hot nights.

[Monica Padman]

I have a Helix Midnight luxe mattress. I really like the level of firmness it has, but that might not be right for you. They have so many options and you just go take the quiz and it is perfectly matched for your needs, which is incredible. I also highly, highly recommend the cooling upgrade, especially in the summer. It makes your sleep so much better. If you're still tossing and turning on a mattress that's not working for you, just trust us on this one.

[Dax Shepard]

Go to helixsleep.comarmchair for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com armchair for 20 percent off site wide. Helixsleep. We are supported by Autotrader. All right, if you've been putting off car shopping because it sounds like a whole thing, buying your car online on Autotrader makes it way easier. Really. You can shop tons of cars online, compare prices, check financing and trade in options, all from wherever you are. And if you want to start online and go to the dealership for a test drive, you can do that too. Really what I like is the flexibility. Start online, finish at the dealer, or the other way around. Your info stays with you, so you're not starting starting the process from scratch. Plus, you're working with local dealer listings, so you've got real people helping behind the scenes. And when you're ready, you can pick up your car or have it delivered. Really? Buy your car online on Autotrader. Really? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've heard us talk about BetterHelp for a while, but I don't know that we've ever talked about how much people love this service when they use it. BetterHelp has an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client session reviews. And you can check out the Reviews [e-mail] reviews to see how much they love BetterHelp. Knowing that kind of service feedback from real people speaks for itself. I'm a huge proponent of therapy. As we've talked about before. I've learned so many things about myself that I believe truly only an outside objective person could help me come to. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started. Answer a few questions, get matched with a therapist based on your needs, and switch therapists at any time if it's not not the right fit. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if better help is right for you. Visit betterhelp.comdax that's better. H lp.comdax. Well, the book heads straight at a pretty frequent debate we have on here. Okay, I love how it starts. So it starts with you. Urge people reading to ask yourself this question. Look over all the times in your life that your emotions influence you to act one way or another, and then ask, did those actions help me or did they hurt me? I think so often people are trapped in whether they deserve to have those emotions or if they were unavoidable. And there's this sense that they're a given, and that's that that you have some kind of autonomy over that. That and the other thing you say in that same paragraph is the degree to which you will get what you want out of life is equal to how well or poorly you deal with your feelings. I love this as a setup for the book, which is it's real simple. Do you like the outcome of when you were, I would say, maybe a victim or a passenger to your feelings? If so, keep going. If that's your conclusion at the end of it, then cool. You like being upset. It doesn't seem to bother you. The outcome's not bad. Who gives a shit for you and

[Mark Brackett]

other people, it's not just about you.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. Elaborate on that.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, like my father would be like, son, this is the way I deal with my feelings. You're going to have to get used to it. I'm like, okay, dad, let's talk about having a little bit of an other mindset, other orientation. Like, this is a family. You blowing up every night is not great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it might be great for you.

[Mark Brackett]

You might be at peace, you're fine with it. But what about everybody else?

[Dax Shepard]

And then A thing that I think is quite liberating and helpful is you also write in that same section, many of us believe that the way we respond to our emotions is an intrinsic part of ourselves, a fixed aspect of our personalities, which is simply not true. There's another thing I think people are like, yeah, fine, you don't mind that, but I do. Yeah, I like that. That feels liberating, that you're not born.

[Mark Brackett]

You're not born that way. Yeah. It's an important distinction between temperament and personality and emotional intelligence and emotion regulation. I, for example, going back, we're talking about our childhood traumas earlier when I was in high school, I mean, really struggling with coming out of the bullying and identity.

[Dax Shepard]

Everyone in your school knew you were molested. I mean, that's an insane experience.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. Pre social media. I still can remember, actually, this is even later. This is when I met Horacio. I met him on a movie set. I was hired as a stunt coordinator.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. For a fight sequence of a. Okay, what movie was was it?

[Mark Brackett]

It was a very, very early movie. It's an independent movie called 10 Benny with Adrien Brody. It's the first leading role. We made it to Sundance. This is 1996, shot in New Jersey. I had a karate studio. I got hired. I was never a stunt coordinator again, just so you know. But I got my love of my life. I see this exotic guy named Oracio. All being said, he's this gorgeous human being. I mean, he's just very good looking and he's got great genetics and I hate him for that. And look, I'm a Jersey boy who's in the closet. And this exotic guy comes in with his black long hair and this perfect features and he's like, can you stand in for Adrien Brody? I'm like, yes. I had done my little experimentation, but this is the first kind of thing. And I remember coming home that night because I had moved back in with my dad after my mother had died. This is all around the same time and just going into my room and crying for hours and saying, this is my life. How can I do this? How can I fall in love with this exotic thing? And what's going to happen in my life? What am I going to be and what are people going to think of me? And I just was so distraught. Of course, call Uncle Marvin again. The key there was that a. I didn't realize there was something you could do. I just thought you experienced these strong negative feelings. They pour through you. Maybe they'll dissipate over Time. But there's nothing I could do in the moment. And that is so far from the truth.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'll say even worse. When you're in those states, you're most convinced this feeling is permanent, despite the fact that none of your other feelings are permanent. When they're negative, you're like, well, this is the rest of my life.

[Mark Brackett]

It's the rainy day. It's a thunderstorm. It's going to turn into a hurricane.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not going to pass.

[Mark Brackett]

No.

[Monica Padman]

What's our debate in this? I'm not following.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, like, you'll have the woman at the store, and then you'll be mad at her and upset. And I'm like, first of all, why would you give that person that much control over your emotional state?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I see.

[Dax Shepard]

That's like a recurring thing. We have these debates where she's like, no, objectively, people are terrible sometimes, and you should feel that way as a result. Right. Is that a fair.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think I would ever say objectively people are terrible. I don't do that. I think there are people doing bad. Not the lady in the store, but there are some people, bad actors in the world doing things that hurt people. And I think it's okay to react to that, to feel that that's correct.

[Mark Brackett]

It's an injustice. The right thing to do is say, hey, not cool. You're being unkind.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you let that take you on a ride is my question.

[Mark Brackett]

No, it's that. Well, yes. Let me just tell you what I'm thinking. Is that the principle that emotions are impermanent is that the rainy day is going to last forever and that there'll be no more sunny days. And objectively speaking, that's not biologically possible.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And I don't have that.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Monica Padman]

I definitely am of the. Like, every feeling is temporary. I don't operate like that. But we get sometimes in a debate where he's like, if you are. Are upset by something, don't let that upset you. And it's like, that's upsetting.

[Mark Brackett]

Well, don't let it have power over you. I think you're getting at.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, a lot of things. Why am I upset? What did it trigger? If you're focused on that person, your life for the rest of your life will be out of your control. If that person has the power to dysregulate you, as opposed to that person triggers this fear in me that I have control over addressing. And that when I get my arms around that fear, lo and behold, that person Who I said was objectively offensive, I'll magically discover isn't that offensive. I believe that to be very true. There are a lot of negative things you could say to me, but it requires that I carry my own insecurity about that to be affected. There's a lot of things being said about me that are probably objectively negative that have no impact on me whatsoever because they don't trigger any of my own fears. So my point is, these people are roadmaps to your work.

[Mark Brackett]

I agree. At the same time, it depends how intimate you are. If it's your husband, your wife, your partner, your mom, your dad, your colleague, and you can't get out of that relationship, it does make it tougher.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, you need a lot more tools at your disposal.

[Mark Brackett]

And if you don't do something about it, it can move into the realm of gaslighting.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, if you're going along with it, yes. But if you're not, no.

[Mark Brackett]

If you're not, it doesn't change the feeling.

[Monica Padman]

Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

That's the thing.

[Mark Brackett]

Because the feeling is an accumulation of your whole life experience. It's not just that moment.

[Dax Shepard]

It's almost assured. It's not that moment.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

That's kind of the point I like to make. Is like, this person gave you kind of a little gift. Why would this stranger with no impact on your life have the ability to alter your mood? That's a great clue as to what work we get to do, correct?

[Monica Padman]

It is. But you are, like, in that moment, don't be offended. I'm allowed to be offended in the moment when someone says or does something that is offensive. I mean, this sort of does go back. I do think I spent a lot of my life having to, like, turn the other way when a lot of offensive things were happening. So I'm very acutely aware of. I don't like that. I don't like the way it feels.

[Dax Shepard]

But my question is, do you think that that's a given, that you will always feel that way in response to that person, or do you believe you might be able to change yourself and have a different experience of that person? That's my curiosity.

[Monica Padman]

I guess the truth is I don't care to have a different opinion of the person. The stranger. Yes. If it's someone in my life and I have to live with them and understand them and know them, that requires some real, like, we gotta work things out. I gotta figure out who I am in relation to you, whatever. But if it's a stranger at a store who said, Something offensive or did something offensive? Do I. I feel like I need to bypass. I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

I wouldn't want you to deny your feeling. I'm not asking you to deny your feeling. My question is, do you think you might do some work that may result in you not even having the feeling in the face of that person?

[Monica Padman]

I don't think it's possible to not have the feeling.

[Mark Brackett]

I don't think that's the goal.

[Dax Shepard]

I can give you my own anecdote where this was the breakthrough of all breakthroughs to me. 2011, I'm directing a movie. Maybe 2012. My mother has come in. She's doing craft service. It's a family affair. It's a small budget movie. There is a PI on the movie that has a terrible personality. Now, I had been anointed the most important person on the set because I'm the director, so I have no insecurities about my role whatsoever. And I would come home at night and I would be talking with my mom at the end of the day, and she'd be like, oh, I hate that guy. He's so condescending. He says, blah, blah, blah, and he treats me like shit. And I just had this moment. I was like, oh, yeah, he talks the same way to me, but I know it's on paper. I'm above him. I have the power. So what I know about this person, he's not being condescending. He just has a shitty personality. From that moment on, I, as a commitment was like, oh, well, if I always felt that way, if I always felt secure, I don't think I'm gonna deal with as many problems. And I think that's true.

[Mark Brackett]

But you're getting at a power dynamic, and that's a critical thing. People with greater power have less to worry about.

[Dax Shepard]

They have a luxury of not succumbing to this inferiority.

[Mark Brackett]

But if it's a racist.

[Dax Shepard]

Boss, we gotta bracket racism.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, but it's part of my whole history.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, but racism. If she said something racist to you, I'm not asking you to not care about that, but if she says something that implies you're not worthy of being in the store, I think that's your thing.

[Monica Padman]

But it's a whole accumulation of. I mean, what are you thinking about this?

[Dax Shepard]

You're now a marriage counselor.

[Mark Brackett]

I was going to say this is breaching, you know, and here's what Trigg me.

[Monica Padman]

We do fact checks here. So it's like we come in here and we tell stories about what happened that weekend. So that's when that story comes up, right? That lady, I did not think about her. I wasn't for hours after, like, God, that bitch. I forgot immediately. And then I was like, what did I do this weekend? Oh, I have a story. It does not rule my life, but it's an incident that does cause an emotion in the moment. But I just think it's fine to have sex.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, I. I have tons of those. I don't think you're unique.

[Mark Brackett]

I think what we're getting at here is this nuance, which, let me try to say it my way, which is that the assumption that we make is that when we feel a strong, unpleasant feeling in a moment is that we're going to have a strong, unhelpful, automatic unhelpful response. And that's where I think you're connecting here, which is that noticing having, like, I could be enraged doesn't mean I have to throw something. But we make an assumption that if I'm enraged, it means I'm out of control. Not true. I have lived with anxiety for 56 years, and I'm pretty freaking good at dealing with it. Most people think I'm the most even keeled calm person. I'm like, I'm a mess. But I'm very skillful. I have tons of strategies for different situations. Sometimes I'm like, hey, anxiety, welcome. Good to see you today. Have a good day. Bye. Bye. And there are other days when I have to work a lot harder at it. And there are moments in life. I was in a taxi coming from the airport the other day and the guy was driving like 500 miles an hour. I'm like, dude, you gotta slow down. I was like, this is like, not safe. And he got pissed.

[Dax Shepard]

He got embarrassed.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah. And I said, you know, respectfully, I'm an anxious passenger. I'm not. But I was in that moment and I just needed him to slow down. I didn't need to scream at him. Like, if I had a friend of mine with me who I won't mention, but she would have been like, out of her mind fight or flighty about it. And again, the big question for these experiences is, how do we feel at the end? If you feel like crap because someone was not kind to you, you got to observe that and say, am I giving them too much power? Am I not giving them too much power? Do I need a better strategy? Am I ruminating? Am I not ruminating? And that's where I think the science of emotion regulation is so critical. Critical because no Matter what. We have to have a belief system. This is kind of where the work began. Do you even believe that you can do it?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's why I like the rejecting. You're intrinsically set with this reaction.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. We're all in learning mode here.

[Dax Shepard]

But that's a mindset which you talk a lot about. Like, so let's start with the mindset. Do you think you might feel different? Is that an option?

[Mark Brackett]

Is it possible that you could learn helpful ways to deal with your feelings?

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

I think a lot of people would just say no.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. And that's what we call a fixed mindset. And that's going to impact your choice of strategies. It's going to impact your willing to learn new ones. So we've got to work on the mindset piece first. In my keynote talks and my presentations, a lot of my work is giving people the science behind the mindsets. Oh, it's possible. Oh, there's no bad emotions. Oh, emotions are impermanent.

[Dax Shepard]

I like the call to self evaluate because again, you're not saying there is a, a threshold by which you're suffering from your reaction. It's just saying when you look back, do you think you would have better outcomes by regulating differently and do you want different outcomes? If it's no to the first and no to the second, then keep it

[Mark Brackett]

moving, keep going, have a great life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But if you want to emotionally regulate and learn to do that, by God, you have a system laid out. So I guess I want to first start by what is the actions of emotional regulation.

[Mark Brackett]

The way I like to think about it is that emotion regulation is a set of goals and strategies. Simple. I can prevent an unwanted emotion. So let's say I thought I would be anxious coming here today. I got a 15 minute taxi ride to do some breathing exercises, give myself some positive self talk. So that way when I get here, I'm already kind of, kind of present. A lot of people don't think about preventing unwanted emotions. They get into a situation and I got to deal with in the moment, prevention is really important. Preventative and proactive is way better than reaction.

[Dax Shepard]

And we should add emotional regulation is not getting rid of emotions.

[Mark Brackett]

No, never.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not the goal. The goal is not to not experience emotions.

[Mark Brackett]

I mean, that's not even possible. The goal might be to shift from one emotion to another. So if I'm feeling anxious about to go on stage because I had this happen once where I was in a place where I was not going to be welcome, it was actually 1500 police officers.

[Dax Shepard]

I was going to guess a rodeo,

[Mark Brackett]

but I was like, I've been around. For some reason, I wasn't really paying attention to what I was doing. And I got on stage and they were introduced to me. And I see 1,500 guys, mostly with their guns. And then they're like, mark is here to talk for three hours about emotion.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Mark Brackett]

If you would have just watched the room. And I was like, okay, this is not gonna go well. Mark, Totally different present. You gotta figure this out in the moment. You gotta play around the moment. I just felt terror. And I'm like, transfer the terror into inspiration. Transfer the terror into humor.

[Dax Shepard]

Harness this energy source.

[Mark Brackett]

I actually turned into a great talk, but that's in the moment. I'm reducing the anxiety and trying to move it to something else. But one thing that's interesting about emotion regulation is that we can intentionally initiate an emotion. So, like, your kids are coming home, you notice this, and you're like, I want to just like, let's do something playful. Let's just create an emotion that's very different from the one I'm seeing here right now. You can maintain an emotion. Have you ever had a good day?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

No. Yeah, tons.

[Mark Brackett]

Anytime you ever had, like, a good day. But then there's someone who calls you or gets in your life. They try to, like, bring it down. The kind of dream stealer type. So how do you bounce back? How do you, like, you know, something like, I want to prolong this feeling. I'm really in a good place. I'm going to take a little bit of a longer walk. I'm going to call someone else to, like, tell the story too, because I want to, like, relish it. And then we can also kind of boost or enhance emotions. So those are the goals, the strategies are what the whole book is about. And so the first strategy is shift your mind, mindset. You can do this. You haven't learned it yet. It's possible. The second is you got to have the language. You got to know what you're feeling. So we've covered those a bit. The next one is the basics. You got to have these skills to deactivate. You just have to be able to take that breath. And other people think breathing, it's overrated.

[Dax Shepard]

And it feels patronizing.

[Mark Brackett]

It does.

[Dax Shepard]

People are convinced, like, there's no way that tiny solution could solve this big problem. It almost seems offensive.

[Mark Brackett]

And if I say it in my office, it is offensive because I'm always like, I think we need to take A deep breath. And everybody's like, that's a trigger. You know, it's like, obviously we need to take two deep breaths. But the truth is that when our nervous system is activated, like giving that example, imagining I'm your kid. I hate school. My mother, in that moment is activated. Her whole life is coming through her. I'm a terrible mother. My kid is being bullied. I don't know what to do about this. And so what do I do? I yell, scream, go to your room. I just eliminate you. Yeah. Instead of, oh, my gosh, my job is to deactivate. I gotta take a step back. I gotta take a deep breath. I gotta figure out a way to help my kid deactivate so that we can actually have a conversation. Because it's impossible from a brain science perspective to have any communication when you're both in fighting.

[Dax Shepard]

You can't talk to someone's amygdala. Basically. This would be a nice time to just. There's some physiological imperatives. Right. As your cortisol goes up and your heart rate goes up, we can watch in an fmri, you're shifting, think. It's just automatic.

[Mark Brackett]

You go survival mode.

[Dax Shepard]

And so first thing you have to acknowledge. And I resisted this when my wife was pitching it to me, because, you know, when your kids are acting insane, you want to, in that moment, teach them this lesson that would have prevented them from getting in this state or whatever it is. And my wife was just relentless about going, going, hey, they can't hear anything you're saying to their back online. Like, whatever impulse you have to do this in this moment is just a waste of your time, because until they're calm, no progress can be made. And, like, that was hard for me to accept. And I have. And, yeah, what a difference if you

[Mark Brackett]

just show you want your need to be met in that moment.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Because now I'm uncomfortable. Listen to me.

[Mark Brackett]

Listen to me. And there's no listening.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I want to heal my discomfort.

[Mark Brackett]

Or what my mom did was eliminate the discomfort, which was. Is go to your room with your folly. Get out of my face. There's too much going on in front of me, and I have no clue what to do about it. So it's fight or flight.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

The other piece of that deactivation, though, is not just about lowering kind of the arousal. It's also about stealing the mind. I don't know about you, but we were talking about ADD ADHD earlier. I mean, that's a lot of people's challenge these days, but we're really trained to be distracted in our society. We're not trained to be still. I mean, how many people spend 10 minutes a day just doing a breath work or a mindfulness exercise to really just still their minds? It's very few. How many people spend five hours? How many teenagers spend six to seven hours a day on their phones? 95%. So once we get through the deactivation and the mindfulness piece where we can actually be present, then we have to also learn the cognitive strategies. To me, these are the master strategies. It's the self talk. It's Mark, take the high road. Mark, you got this. Mark, you know, this feeling is impermanent. It's that self talk that works for you. And you have to cultivate your own. I can't tell you what it is. You got to kind of figure out the phrases that work for you, but it really works. And especially when you do it in this third person sense. So it's like you say to Mark, you got this. I'm showing empathy to myself like I would to a best friend. And so by saying that, Mark, you got this. It's like literally giving advice to Mark as opposed to me in the moment, who's ready to murder that person or whatever is happening. There's a million of these techniques. My other favorite one, for people who have trouble with interactions, like relationship stuff, where someone might get aggressive or kind of be unsettling. It's called spatial distance. This is the one I use with my dad a lot. So my dad, he would get triggered and then he'd go on and on. You think this and you think that, and then I would just make him into a movie.

[Dax Shepard]

I literally put him in a box,

[Mark Brackett]

put him in a box, in a frame.

[Dax Shepard]

And like, wow, this is like a Nicholson character.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. Totally. Yeah, yeah. B level. But nevertheless.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And the way I think about it is what it's doing is it allows you to observe and not absorb. That's a big difference.

[Dax Shepard]

Observe instead of absorb. Yeah, that's great. In partnerships.

[Mark Brackett]

Another one that I use pretty much daily is temporal distancing. Like, I'm the scientist. I use spreadsheets. I'm a director of a center, and Horacio is an artist. We have very little in common when it comes to planning, when it comes to details. And it's okay. That's why our house has great lighting. But I don't want to pay for the lighting. And so the joke is, we have to have this. And I'm like, I have to take a moment I'm like, mark, A, can we afford it? Can we not afford it? B, how much does this matter to you? The house is going to look great no matter what because he's going to do a great job. Is this a massive credit card debt or is this something you can live with? And that's hard in relationships because we're so freaking controlling. I mean, at least I am. And even stupid little things. And my Mark, are you gonna not sleep tonight because we bought this stupid little thing? No, you don't give a shit. Let it go, walk down the other aisle, wait in the car. So those cognitive strategies in those moments when you're like, that's a rip off, which is what I, I can go in that direction really bad. Yeah. You know, you are a sucker, Mark. Whatever.

[Monica Padman]

Does this really matter?

[Mark Brackett]

Does this really matter? In a week from now, am I going to be still angry about this or am I going to forget about it? Most likely going to forget about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Deathbed check's good at this moment. Am I going to care on my death?

[Monica Padman]

I also think punting it is kind of good. Like, okay, well if I still care about this next week, maybe I can

[Mark Brackett]

bring it up, then we have a conversation. But not when we're in the middle of buying it, when we can return it. Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

How does co regulation work?

[Mark Brackett]

That's the next key thing which I think is so important, which is that a, we overdo in, especially in western society, this like self control, self regulation. I can do this on my own. Why should you suffer by yourself?

[Dax Shepard]

Because it's strong.

[Mark Brackett]

Which is ridiculous. There's a phrase that I love, it's never worry alone. Like why? I'm not weak because I worry.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

I'm worried for a reason that's legitimate. And guess what? I could use someone sitting by my side. I could use a hug right now. I could use someone just saying, you want to go for a walk? That's co regulation at the highest level. It's noticing and saying, I can be supportive to help this person manage their feelings. I'm not going to fix them. I'm not going to to tell them what to do. But I'm going to make some offerings. And it's not coddling, which is what people sometimes think it is. It's not like it's going to be okay. No, don't worry about it. Mommy will take care of it. Daddy will do it for you. That's not co regulation. That's unhealthy co regulation. Co regulation is your kid is climbing a Rock. If you're my mother, you're going to fall. That's unhealthy CO regulation. That's creating fear. Healthy CO regulation is the kid is climbing the rock. The mother's a little nervous that the kid's gonna fall because it's a little risky because they're tiny. But we're gonna play this out and I'm gonna say, honey, that looks really steep. I believe you can do it. I just want to be super careful, so I'm gonna come closer and be there for you. That way, if anything goes wrong, which I don't think it's gonna, I'm there for you. Totally different.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

One is rescue or get down. The other is, is I actually believe in you. It's building the resilience in the kid, building the confidence in the kid, but providing that little bit of support. I mean, we're endlessly co regulating. We're co regulating right now with each other, whether we're conscious of it or not.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right.

[Mark Brackett]

You're saying something. I'm responding. If I don't agree with you or you don't agree with me, in that moment, you get a little feeling. You're like, whatever, it's only a podcast. Let it go. And, you know, it's like, we want this to be inspiring and engaging for people. I hope that they're going to learn something from it. So. So we're purposely telling stories that are aligned with that. That's co regulation in action.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I mean, I want everyone to get out of this. Yeah. You're gonna have emotions. They're gonna be strong, they're gonna be uncomfortable. And there's a version where you do the best with that, that you can.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what the goal is.

[Mark Brackett]

And by the way, part of the co regulation thing that's so important is that when you try to be the fixer or the advice giver or the solver, you're not actually helping the brain develop. As a parent, I need to be uncomfortable. I don't want to be in a situation where I'm going to die. But, you know, I can get up on the rock. You know, I can be a little exploratory, and I need to know that I can talk to myself in a way that says, mark, you can do this. I need to know that I'm going to fail. I need to know that it feels shitty when you fail. I need to learn what to say to someone who treats me in an unkind way. We have to build that muscle. And you don't build that muscle by learning nothing, by no one being there. And you don't build that muscle by coddling. You don't build that muscle by controlling. You build it by co regulating and scaffolding and building it.

[Dax Shepard]

It's amazing how much vestigial shit we're still dealing with. When early enlightened writers split the emotions and the intellect into two separate things, the great question would be like, why don't know any of this. Why has this never been taught? Why no one take this? Because, oh. Emotions are something to be ignored, avoided and controlled. And intellect is something that'll bring you everything.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so why would we spend five minutes learning this thing that we're supposed to avoid in place of more math that can take us further? And it's kind of crazy that at best we're 50, 50 analytical and emotional creatures, but in reality we're like 85% emotional.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And we've just ignored it.

[Mark Brackett]

Emotions drive everything. They drive our attention, our learning, our decisions, our relationships, our health, our performance, our creativity. There's no correctness here, and I want to say that loudly. There is no correct strategy. This is a game we play in our lives.

[Dax Shepard]

But one thing you can say is if you've misidentified the emotion, you have no shot at combating that. You're chasing a different issue. It seems most logical to actually start with a true understanding of what you're feeling, which is way more complicated than people give it credit.

[Mark Brackett]

Self awareness is a gift and most people don't have much of it. Uh huh. It's funny, when I was writing, I knew a lot of it, but then I had to do research for a lot of it because I'm not an expert in everything. The pieces that I had to really study so that I could write about them were the pieces, of course, that I procrastinated. And I would just get so overwhelmed and I would try to like Mark, you're a professor, work through it. And every time I tried to do that, it got worse. Every time I just shut the computer and went to work out, I came back in flow states. I remember joking on the subway, you may not finish the book, but you're going to be in the best shape unless you get one outcome.

[Dax Shepard]

It could turn into a fitness book.

[Mark Brackett]

Exactly. The point I'm making is that life is a rollercoaster ride of emotions. You know, I didn't know my mother was going to die when I was 24 years old of pancreatic cancer. I didn't know the same year I'd find the person who I was going to be with for my whole life. I didn't know I was going to become a professor. I didn't know I was going to run a center. I didn't know I'd be traveling. Like all these things happen. And if we just observe that and say, okay, life is a rollercoaster ride of emotions. I think I'd rather have more pleasant ones than unpleasant ones. Let me do some self evaluation of where I'm at in my life and let me be a scientist about my strategies. Are they working for me, are they working against me? Because by the way, all the unhealthy ones are okay too. Drinking's fine, a little bit. Eating, a little bit of sugar, whatever. Distraction, fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Avoidance works for me sometimes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Binge a TV show, it's great.

[Mark Brackett]

But you know when I used to be a fitness instructor and I'd see people on the treadmill for eight hours, I'm like, eesh. Now you're like not dealing with the real feeling. So everything is a balance. My hope for people is that they learn the strategies and practice those strategies and then just take some time, you know, monthly to say, is my life working for me or against me?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

And at some point in our lives we can blame our childhoods and blame our parents and blame everything. Or we can wake up and say, you know what? I'm going to be my own Uncle Marvin Timothy today I'm going to look in the mirror, have a little less judgment, going to be a little bit better listener to myself. I'm going to have some self compassion, going to be a little warmer to myself. And what the research shows is that will make a difference for you. You can cultivate Uncle Marvin Ness in yourself. And here's the more beautiful thing from my perspective and I'll just share one last story, which is. So I'm giving a speech in a town in New York City and I'm talking about my uncle, which I didn't normally do in my previous presentations. And this one guy looks at me and he's like, are you talking about Marvin Moore, the sixth grade social student from Monticello, New York? I said, I am. And he's like, Mark, your uncle was my Uncle Marvin.

[Monica Padman]

Aw.

[Mark Brackett]

I said, what do you mean? He's like, he was my sixth grade teacher 50 years ago and I will never ever forget the twinkle in his eyes, the way he smiled, the way he taught us about emotions and history and, and like the guy just kept on talking and I said, well, I gotta finish my speech, but can I interview you afterwards? And he stayed and I talked with him about a half hour, videotaped this interview with one of my uncle's own actual students. But I share that with you because at the end he looked at me and he said, it's pretty darn clear the impact that your uncle has had on your life. And I said, of course. And so he said, I'm just curious, Mark, for whom are you and Uncle Mark? And it just hit me. I'm like, I like to do the research. And I realized I was not showing up as that non judgmental listener for my significant other, for a lot of other people. And I made it a goal. And I share that because what the research shows is really interesting is that when we can show up for you, for you as that character, as that ally, we see the best in the other person. That's the CO regulation. I can see your life is improving as a result of my CO regulation. And by me watching you have a better life, it makes my life better. So it's a twofer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's where it begins.

[Dax Shepard]

I love that the book is called Dealing with Use youe Emotions to create the life you want. Dr. Mark Brackett. This has been so fun.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you. Thank you so much. I can talk about feelings forever.

[Monica Padman]

Feelings are great, important.

[Mark Brackett]

We don't want to do that. We want to limit that in the

[Dax Shepard]

right time and place. Be well, good luck with everything. I hope you have a great rest of your tour. Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks. Hello.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm excited to be here today.

[Monica Padman]

We haven't recorded in a couple days.

[Dax Shepard]

Uh huh. Yeah. I missed you. I was out of town for a few days. We like a five day break. Yeah. Thursday or Tuesday? Is that five days?

[Monica Padman]

Thursday. Friday. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

It's like a full Thanksgiving.

[Dax Shepard]

Speaking of which, I really have the, the tingly about it being here.

[Monica Padman]

I'm excited too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Are you excited about your secret turkey?

[Dax Shepard]

No, I mean receiving it or preparing one?

[Monica Padman]

Preparing one.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I'm not. You know this, this is a big shortcoming of mine. I'm bad at gifts. I'm, I'm just bad. Like, like I'll tell you, I, I, I, I think about it 30 minutes a day, which leads to depression. Yep. I spent 30 minutes thinking about this and I have nothing. And I'm going to do it tomorrow.

[Monica Padman]

I love how Great. It is.

[Dax Shepard]

It's fantastic. It's a great thing. I'm not creative in this space.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a shortcoming to remind people if

[Monica Padman]

they don't know about secret turkey.

[Dax Shepard]

Erica, Molly's daughter, invented it, which is great. And she invented it, like three years

[Monica Padman]

ago, I think so.

[Dax Shepard]

So she was like 12 or 13

[Monica Padman]

the first year we were all together. And she. She was like, everyone pick a name out of a hat. And this is a very. What's the word to describe Lily?

[Dax Shepard]

Great sense of humor.

[Monica Padman]

She knows herself really well already. She's very self assured.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Like during COVID and stuff, she would put on all these plays. Every time we would go on a big pod trip.

[Dax Shepard]

She would organize a plan. She makes movies, the kids, and she directs all of them. And there's babies involved and she.

[Mark Brackett]

Them all.

[Dax Shepard]

She really good at that.

[Monica Padman]

So can't wait to hire her in eight years. But. Yeah. No, she's wonderful.

[Dax Shepard]

Special girl.

[Monica Padman]

Very, very special. She came to us, whatever, and was like, pick a name out of the hat. And there were people. Name people's names. And then also we had to pick another thing that said, like, write a story or origami or something. Yes. And you had to match the two and do this by the end of the night. And I was annoyed.

[Dax Shepard]

We all. We all were. Yeah, we were all annoyed. Like, God, we have homework now. Yes.

[Monica Padman]

I was like, I just wanted to relax today. And now we have to figure this out. And we have to, because it's for a child.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Can't break her young dreams.

[Monica Padman]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

And we did it. And it was spectacular.

[Monica Padman]

It was the best thing we ever, ever did. It was so heartwarming.

[Dax Shepard]

And then the next year, which is great, is I had never received a text from Lily and it just said, your secret turkey is blank.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I didn't even know what that meant, but it was just in order.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which was really fun.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So for the past few years, we've received, with some weeks in advance, our secret turkey. Someone in our pod, and we have to make the gift.

[Dax Shepard]

Correct.

[Monica Padman]

And.

[Dax Shepard]

Or if you're Charlie, you. You say you made it, but you really hired an artist.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Which is very good.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And then we go around and we present our secret turkeys, and it's a really special thing to do. And right now you're. You're in that phase where you're stressed out about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But you're gonna feel good once you accomplish it.

[Dax Shepard]

It'll be wonderful. It's. It's the best Part of Thanksgiving.

[Monica Padman]

I haven't started mine, but I know what I'm doing.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. I'm excited to see who you have, and I'm excited.

[Monica Padman]

Well, everyone's a good person.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I basically have a lot of as much excitement as I have. I also have a ton of holiday anxiety because it's also limited a sweatshirt edition time.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So this is the time of the year where I've got to let go. Dr. And every time, I enter it with the same anxiety because I can't draw very well.

[Monica Padman]

So that's not true.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yesterday, I sat down with an idea. It was actually your idea. So I. I had to draw three different things. I drew the first thing. I was like, oh, my God, this is great. I sent it to you.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Really good.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I tried to draw the next thing for hours, and I just couldn't. I'm like, why can't I draw that thing? And not.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it is weird. Kind of. Were you looking at an image?

[Mark Brackett]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, of course.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It was just very frustrating, and I couldn't. I couldn't do it. And then I was like, and I can't bring in someone to do one of the three pictures. Got to be from me. Now, I did order a device this morning, I'll have you know that I think might help with this.

[Monica Padman]

But also, I think you are overthinking it. And this is because you actually are good at drawing that. Your bar is much higher. The thing can. I guess. Can we say.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I wanted to do a crow, a mouse, and cherry.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Which is so cute. And then you were able to accomplish the mouse.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. In fact, regardless of that, I do want to. Merry Christmas. I'm going to frame that for you for Christmas.

[Monica Padman]

That's so sweet.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. The problem was the mouse is good enough that the crow look like a crayon draw. Like the. They have to be somewhat comparable.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, in detail, it's not like one can be a character and one can. Can be photorealistic. And then.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Because the mouse is photorealistic. It has, like, hairs.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Whiskers.

[Monica Padman]

And it's so detail. It is so detailed, and it's really, really good. But maybe you could. Dumb. Da. Give me that for Christmas. But then maybe you could do a version that's more crayon, like the crow, so that it matches. But.

[Dax Shepard]

So I ordered a light board today. An artist light board.

[Mark Brackett]

What's that?

[Dax Shepard]

So I trace the outside of a shape, and then I do all the stuff and the crow is just a big blob of black and it just. I couldn't even get the shape right. And then to get into the feathers and there's something. There's so many patterns that go all these different ways or whatever. Now a light board emits bright light behind the images you're doing. So, like, I could put an image and trace it. Yeah, I guess it's a cheat.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyways, lightboards are really popular and I realize a lot of people are using lightboards because once I got on there, there's all these different options. And then the stuff I was looking at, I was like, oh, yeah, I see that all time. People are definitely using light.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyways, I ordered a pretty nice lightboard today.

[Monica Padman]

You're turning into a real artiste.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Maybe this will send me on some kind of a trajectory.

[Monica Padman]

You could probably use your lightboard to make whatever your secret turkey gift.

[Dax Shepard]

True. That's a good point. Okay, Great idea. Earmarked. Okay. I got. I have a few funny stories I want to tell you.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

When I work out, there's a lot of mirrors in my gym and there's a lot of background light. And I don't. When I look in the mirror in my bathroom, there's zero backlight. It's all front light. And so what I see. And that's going to be a ding, ding, ding. When I see what's so backlit, that's where I'm seeing like, oh, my Jennifer. I have so much hair growing out of my trapezius, my deltoids, my back. And then I see like really long stray hairs coming out my neck, which are disgusting. And while I'm working out, all I can do is focus on those.

[Monica Padman]

Of course.

[Dax Shepard]

So it occurred to me, I'm going to keep scissors in my gym. Gym now.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So that I can get the things I'm seeing. So yesterday I fully was just going to work out.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And I cut some hairs, then I cut some more hairs. Then I gave myself a full haircut when I was.

[Monica Padman]

How can you read?

[Dax Shepard]

You notice my hair is cut from the last time you saw me. I got like a fresh cut right now. That's because I gave myself a full haircut in the gym. And I put a towel down and I would go over the mirror and I would just start cutting. And then I would walk outside and shake all the hair off. I'm like, that's it. Now get back to your workout. Working out a little bit more. Oh, I missed that spot. This Spot. So I was in there working out for about an hour and 45 minutes and I got a terrible workout and I came out with a fresh haircut.

[Monica Padman]

You have an unusual marriage to your hair in that you, you sometimes have to, to like change it immediately. Like, remember when you, you had to buy those shavers, you had to buy a razor when you were on vacation with Delta to shave your face in the parking lot.

[Mark Brackett]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I just hit a maximum capacity. I was like, this thing is way too long. I got to get it off my face. I felt like claustrophobic for it. And then I also, when I'm depressed, I'll give myself a radical haircut. But that started in junior high and it's kind of like a coping mechanism. Sound like we're going to reset set. There's a new me and I'm not. And also I, I tend to trim my hair. Kristen points this out all the time. If she sees me, like almost like five nights in a row doing some trimming in the mirror when I brush my teeth, she knows I have a lot of anxiety. So yes, I currently have a lot of anxiety and yes, so that you're, you're right about that pattern.

[Monica Padman]

Well, do you want to talk about why you're depressed?

[Dax Shepard]

I have a lot of work anxiety.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, there's a lot of work anxiety right now. Yeah. BTS.

[Dax Shepard]

BTS where like I'm some days at 8 going like to the family. May I go to bed? May just go to bed now.

[Monica Padman]

If, if this was happening with a family member.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

What advice would you give them?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, it happens all the time, you know.

[Monica Padman]

And what advice do you give? Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, so you know, Kristen has depression, so she'll. Hers won't necessarily be inside incident driven. Right. It's not like she has a specific thing. She'll just have a wave of it. And yeah, she'll sleep a lot and there's really, there's nothing I can do or nor do I think I should do. I just go like, oh, yeah, yeah. She's kind of in a slump. She's going to sleep a lot for a while and then she's going to come out of it. Now, earlier on, that used to scare me and I was like, is this going to be forever? And I've just gone through the cycle enough that now I just go like, oh, really?

[Mark Brackett]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. She's going to organize for a couple days really, really intensely and then she's going to sleep a lot for a few days and then it's going to be Over.

[Monica Padman]

I guess I'm asking like what. What would your recommendations be if there was a prolonged period of what you felt was not a great state?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Well, yeah. There's steps. One is like I will gently and have. Have like, hey, love, have you. If you checked in with your psychiatrist lately?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, I'm not saying you do anything, just like have you checked in with your psychiatrist?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So that'll be like one thing I can do. It's evolved because I used to try to fix it. That's my nature.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I used to try to talk her out of it or tell her what's good in her life or you know, gratitude list. One thing I'll still do. And she, she likes this. And it's. It's not. It doesn't trigger. Feeling judged about being sad is. Let's go for a walk or let's go for a hike. Like just encouraging. Let's go, you know, move around. But I'm still moving around. I'm still doing all my workouts.

[Monica Padman]

That's good.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, another great update. So I got the toe thing looked at.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Guess what I'm doing tomorrow. I'm going to the dentist.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

First time in 10 years.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God. Yeah. That's great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Guess what else I'm going to do. I'm going to have my teeth white cleaned.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What do you think about that?

[Monica Padman]

I think that's great.

[Dax Shepard]

I've been seeing a lot of pictures of myself from olden days and I realized my teeth used to be so much whiter.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

I had, you know, I had four or five years of tobacco use.

[Mark Brackett]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Coming up on a year without. Are you worried about it being too bright?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no. But that is a really funny episode of Friends.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

No, but like it has. It hurts.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh yeah. It hurts really bad. I remember because I did it like 18 years ago.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it was miserable.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I think I'm going to. And they won't like this. But I'm. Well, at least when I did it before you did multiple sessions. And I'm gonna go. I can handle just a lot. A little bit of lightning. I don't gotta go all the way and have the insane tooth pain. Like I won't trade. I'm willing to just do halfway. Feel like I wasted some money. But not. Yeah. Cuz when I did it the first time, it felt like ice picks in my teeth first. If you. You haven't had it done, have you? No, no need.

[Monica Padman]

What a. I use that arm and hammer. You know, I. I don't. I keep telling you. And you can do it. It's. It's at your disposal. But you just. You just don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but also you never chew tobacco and you're new to coffee.

[Monica Padman]

You're still. I drink a lot of red wine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's problematic.

[Monica Padman]

Attic.

[Dax Shepard]

God, imagine what they would look like if you didn't drink so much red wine.

[Monica Padman]

Do they not look good?

[Dax Shepard]

They're so white. They're very enviable. It doesn't help that I work with you because I'm staring at like as white as they can get all the time. Natural. Now. You're right. You can go way too far.

[Monica Padman]

You can. And you can tell to me. You can tell. I guess this is the reverse veneers conversation. Yeah, you got to be careful. It's fine line.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we'll find. You'll see. Thursday.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, great. I'm excited. Now I just remember we were on camera. So I showed my teeth and. And I remembered something else. People will definitely say, monica, do you have a hickey?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, let me see. And do you?

[Monica Padman]

I don't. Oh, do you see it though?

[Dax Shepard]

I do not.

[Mark Brackett]

Oh, really?

[Dax Shepard]

Point to where it's at.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I don't remember.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, on that side. A little bruise?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's a bruise. Which is a picky.

[Dax Shepard]

How'd that happen?

[Monica Padman]

I had a refresh of my Botox.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. And they do your neck?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they do. Because I have a very strong neck.

[Mark Brackett]

Uhhuh.

[Monica Padman]

And so they have to put some Botox in there.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

To make it less strong.

[Dax Shepard]

Less strong?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Too strong.

[Dax Shepard]

What if you woke up in the morning and you went to lift your head up and you couldn't and you came into work and your head was like this and you go. And you go. You ever get toothpaste or. There we go. Botox.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, so in this episode, Anna goes into the bathroom. And while she's in the bathroom, you're telling me about your potential cashmere sweater that you're gonna make out of your back hair.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you.

[Monica Padman]

That you, I guess, made you collected some more yesterday.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I didn't. I didn't. But I see that a new crop is coming in. Did I already say in case you missed that episode? Basically, I discovered I had all this back hair from the backlighting of the gym. I was saying it out loud to my family and Lincoln said, do you want me to shave your back? Which I think is a dirty job. I would have never asked her to shave my back. That sounds. Well, first of all, like very vain on my. Like I've got my kids grooming me now.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But she offered and. And I shave her legs for her.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. That's cute. And so have you thought about combining.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a great idea. Well, maybe two different sweaters. So anyways, so I sat on the edge of the bathtub and she shaved my whole back. And then I collected it to throw it away. And I couldn't help but notice. By George, this is the softest hair I've ever felt in my life. I didn't. Would have never thought my hair was a soft. So then, then Lincoln and I decided that I should start collecting it. Cuz it's cashmere.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And that at some point, maybe when I'm 60 or 70, I'll have enough for a sweater.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And so.

[Monica Padman]

So you brought it?

[Dax Shepard]

I brought it and I keep it in this bag. Now I don't know if that's how you spell cashmere. And as you can see from the amount in it, it's going to take a long time.

[Monica Padman]

It's really, really going to take.

[Dax Shepard]

But I really wanted you to feel it because I think anyone was like, there's no way it's what you say it is. But you're very objective and you don't ever lie to benefit.

[Monica Padman]

You spelled it right.

[Dax Shepard]

I did. I want you to take it out and touch it. And Rob, you're invited to too. But be careful you don't get any stuck to your fingers. I don't want you that.

[Monica Padman]

You can't waste any.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I don't have enough to spare. Yes, yes, definitely. Dry your fingers off.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

No paper towels.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

There's really not a lot to work with here.

[Dax Shepard]

You can pull it all the way out.

[Monica Padman]

Oh wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And you want to go like this between your fingers as if it's a cashmere sweater.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It's okay. Everything's okay.

[Monica Padman]

I'm scared of dropping some.

[Dax Shepard]

Really enjoy. What do you think? Go ahead and touch it with your other fingers, baby.

[Monica Padman]

I'm good. Wow, is really soft.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you ever felt hair that soft? I haven't.

[Monica Padman]

Hold on, let me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, use both hands.

[Monica Padman]

Well, no, I want to do like a comparative.

[Dax Shepard]

Now you could make a snowmobile suit in like a day.

[Monica Padman]

But, but not. This hair is coarser.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Very different.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's really soft. Hold on. What about arm hair?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I imagine that similar.

[Monica Padman]

I have a lot of arm hair. That's when they said I was a woolly mammoth. I mean werewolf One of them.

[Dax Shepard]

A woolly werewolf.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. It's really nice, Rob.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you want to grab a little. Rob, do you want it to. To keep your job?

[Monica Padman]

He doesn't want to.

[Mark Brackett]

Don't make him.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, but it is starting to fall apart.

[Dax Shepard]

It's okay.

[Monica Padman]

Do you love is soft, Rob.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't downplay it. It's very, very soft.

[Mark Brackett]

It's impress a lot because she's.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I. I did that on purpose. Where is it?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

Here.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. Guys, guys. That's so hard to come by. That's like rare earth metals. Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Get this back in here. This is so rare.

[Dax Shepard]

And to remind people this is my competitive product to Brad Pitt's God's True cashmere. My company is going to be my true cashmere. Oh, no.

[Monica Padman]

It should be called Backs True Cashmere because it's almost your name and it's your back.

[Dax Shepard]

Backs with an ax. Yes, Backs Cashmere. Wow, guys, that's a great.

[Monica Padman]

How do you feel about me? Like just putting a tiny bit of my arm hair in here.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that would be great. That would be great. That's similar to Peaby.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Got a couple.

[Dax Shepard]

You did. Okay, great. Yeah, just add it to the.

[Mark Brackett]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

It's pretty special, right? Like it feel. I feel like that came off a baby.

[Monica Padman]

I can't believe.

[Dax Shepard]

Wait till I have a gallon size ziploc bag.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God. Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know if this is the best vessel vessel because there's little. I see little hairs all over in the little ball they were in.

[Monica Padman]

Every time you touch it, it does lose a little bit of its quality.

[Dax Shepard]

Thanks for being willing to touch it. Catch that. I hope it delivers. I'm gonna.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna see because I. I was just talking about in a way that now I'm wondering, is it as soft as I remember? It got smaller, which is a little concerning.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it didn't get smaller.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's. Wow. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[Monica Padman]

We get support from skims. Oh, man, do I love skims. I've been living in the skims lightweight cotton collection all summer. And I have to tell you, getting dressed has become so easy. I just throw it on. It just feels right immediately. Whether I'm grabbing coffee or I'm on the couch all day or I'm out even going to dinner. The cotton is so lightweight and breathable, which in this heat is a non negotiable. The cotton jersey T shirt. I just need everyone to know about this One. This one hugs in all the right places. It's very soft and it still looks and fits the same after months of washing, which is very hard to do, I feel, with T shirts. I've been wearing the black cotton jersey T shirt with basically everything all summer long. It goes great with any patterned skirt or shorts or pants. I mean, anything, truly. I believe that's probably my favorite piece from the Cotton Collection. But they also have great lightweight cotton thong that are so comfortable and they're cute. That is a very, very hard mix to achieve, especially with undergarments. I feel if you can find some that are cute but also comfortable and do the job, that is a win. And Skims has really, really figured that out with the lightweight cotton collection. Shop Skims Cotton and all of my favorite [e-mail] after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select Armchair Expert in the dropdown menu that follows. Follows.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we don't have much left after that little. That might be the last show and tell of my cat.

[Monica Padman]

Now it's just more compacted, which you're going to need to compact it.

[Dax Shepard]

I gotta learn how to spin yarn too, because that. Isn't that part of what I'll have to do.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Okay. So that's a fact because you said that cashmere comes from a goat. Goats chin.

[Dax Shepard]

Chin hairs.

[Monica Padman]

It does. It comes from the soft undercoat of cashmere goats.

[Mark Brackett]

Ah.

[Dax Shepard]

And they're. They're like. They're up in Tibet. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

No, India. Cashmere. India with a K. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, right. Cashmere.

[Monica Padman]

When we were in India, I did get myself some cashmere scarves from.

[Dax Shepard]

From cashmere. They. I presume they grow them elsewhere, but it's like champagne.

[Monica Padman]

Yep. Where you're only really drinking champagne if it comes from champagne. France. Speaking of things to consume, I just saw Honora in the movie theater. It's a movie to see in the movie theater. Currently out. It's so good.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. What's it about? You can't tell.

[Monica Padman]

I don't really want to say too much.

[Mark Brackett]

Good.

[Dax Shepard]

I prefer that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Is there anyone in it? I know.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think you probably know anyone in it.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

But you will. I think she's definitely going to get nominated and, like, might win. And she is so good in. I mean, everyone's so good in it, but the main actress, Mickey Madison, she is a revelation. It's really something to see. It's so weird because it's like a. It's sad. Like, there's, like, sad things that happen, but there's also, like. There's. There's such comedy throughout. So tonally. And sometimes I don't like that when tones are sort of all over the place, but they. They nailed it.

[Dax Shepard]

I like multiple tones and things.

[Monica Padman]

Sometimes I think it can feel forced.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

But it didn't hear.

[Dax Shepard]

But like, Hit and Run was like a car chase movie, but it was a relationship movie. And it was.

[Monica Padman]

But tonally, it was one. It had one tone. It was different genres were mixed.

[Dax Shepard]

I think you can do multiple tones if you're the writer director.

[Mark Brackett]

It is.

[Dax Shepard]

It's Sean Baker.

[Mark Brackett]

He did the Florida project and Red Rocket. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

That makes a lot of sense. I think if you're a writer director. Like, I would be thinking about this when I was doing Hit and Run because there's, like, there's some broad comedy scenes with nudity and old people. Then there's some really violent scenes. But the. The unifying tone is. It's everything I like. So it's bizarrely consistent tonally, even though it's, like everything I like in one movie.

[Monica Padman]

Right, right. It's such a good movie. I really highly recommend it. Been some good movies lately. Substance. Anora.

[Dax Shepard]

Substance.

[Monica Padman]

Substance again.

[Dax Shepard]

Nora.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Poor things. Last year.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So Woman of the Hour. Ding, ding, ding.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you love it?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I mean, it's.

[Dax Shepard]

It's dark.

[Monica Padman]

Dark. Yeah. But yes. So well done.

[Dax Shepard]

It's very well made.

[Monica Padman]

She killed it.

[Dax Shepard]

The notion that she pitched herself hours before they had to have a director and then had six weeks of prep and then executed. That is hugely impressive.

[Monica Padman]

It really is. Really is. Very. Good job.

[Dax Shepard]

Good job, Anna.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, I have an update. Huge update.

[Dax Shepard]

Rings back.

[Monica Padman]

My ring is back.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but it's a little smaller now.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So I got it soldered back and I. I think it's a mix of it being maybe a teeny bit smaller.

[Mark Brackett]

Uhhuh.

[Monica Padman]

Because of, like, you know, they probably have to overlap it a tiny bit to solder it would be my guess. Maybe not, but anyway, it might be a little bit smaller. And I think my knuckle is permanently bigger now. A bit bigger from the beat. So I had to really shove this thing on. It took a while. And while I was doing it, I was like, is this a. This. This is a. What am I doing? I'm doing. I'm setting myself up for another horrible situation.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. But I kept going, we say doing the same thing and expecting different results.

[Monica Padman]

I know they say that in aaa.

[Dax Shepard]

They also say it everywhere. I think too. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

There's a quote that Einstein says that's like insanity is the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. Anyway, I worked really hard to get this on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It is never coming off.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, maybe, maybe I'll, you know, at any moment. You want me to take it off. We've gone down this road. I can get it off in seconds.

[Monica Padman]

I hope I die with it on.

[Mark Brackett]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I Hope that's in 100 years, but yeah, that sounds fine.

[Monica Padman]

At first when I put it back on, I had, I had so much fear that I made a huge mistake and that I should not have put it back on and that I'm jinxing. I, I, well, oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Now it's like it's a triple jinx.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, it was. It's a reverse back jinx. Because I really started to believe that the ring was the cause to a lot of bad stuff that's going on in the world. And personally.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And you did try to tell me that it wasn't the case. You said I'm not that powerful. Which was a nice thing to say. But I don't believe you because a lot. Also, one of my favorite restaurants closed. Like things started to really unravel. Shit really started to unravel.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So I had to get it back on. But then as soon as I did, I thought, oh, maybe you're not supposed to go back. Maybe this is a lesson and not going back.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Not trying to go back to high school or Recreate.

[Monica Padman]

Recreate.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's a cute ring. It looks great on your hand and you love it. And it really symbolizes something beautiful and you should continue to love it and embrace it. Your first big job and you got a reward for yourself.

[Monica Padman]

I did.

[Dax Shepard]

I love it. Maybe can you wear it on a different finger that's smaller?

[Monica Padman]

I can't wear it anywhere again.

[Dax Shepard]

Because you can't get it off.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah,

[Dax Shepard]

that, yeah, that makes me panic.

[Monica Padman]

But I did make a joke that I think the be that stung me was of a different political party that I'm affiliated with.

[Mark Brackett]

Huh.

[Monica Padman]

Really got in there, you know? Yeah, yeah. Did some dirty work.

[Mark Brackett]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, one of the scariest I've ever been is I have, I have sensed this moment. Moment been stung enough that I know I've outgrown my bee allergy. You know, infamously, in second grade, my whole face disappeared and I almost stopped breathing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so I had.

[Monica Padman]

You also almost stopped breathing. Cuz he put a sheet on your face.

[Dax Shepard]

He had Put what washcloth on my face? Similar to what we did to Bubba Bob. And I carried an EpiPen and whatnot. And then I got stung. And then I went to the hospital and they just monitor me, whatever. I now wouldn't have this fear. But. But when I was in an archeology class and we were digging up in the Santa Monica Mountains at Stunt Ranch, a swarm of bees was migrating, and you all of a sudden heard it. And then crazy enough, our archeology teacher, he had been on a dig in South America and a student got killed, a graduate student, by getting attacked by bees. So I only imagine what his PTSD is about all this. He calls it out. He's like, everyone's still. And you can hear, like. And you start hear, hearing it, hearing it, hearing it. And we just all sat there and it was like biblical. It was a cloud. And when they went overhead, now mind you, they were still probably 60ft above us. It's not like they were coming down, but there was a moment where it was a visible black cloud. And the amount of noise they made was on par with when a LA police helicopter flies over. It was so loud in so many quadrillion of them. And I'm thinking I'm allergic to them. And I remember just like, should I run? Should I not run? Should I run? Should I sit here? Should I run? And I just. I stayed. And then they passed. Obviously, I didn't die.

[Monica Padman]

Good thing you stayed.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You think I would have caught their attention?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Your teacher said specifically, don't move. I'm glad you listen.

[Dax Shepard]

That's interesting, too, because part of the reason the. The student had died was that everyone ran. And he ran kind of up a hill and he got stuck. He couldn't climb any. Any higher.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Sorry I brought that up.

[Monica Padman]

It's a horrible story.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not a good story.

[Monica Padman]

It's very my girl. So anyway, so Ring is back. We'll see how the world.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Takes that in. Tbd. One other thing I want to say really quick. So I almost did something bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good.

[Monica Padman]

But I didn't.

[Dax Shepard]

I like bad stuff. Stuff.

[Monica Padman]

Tell me. So I was at a restaurant the other day and I went to the bathroom. Very rare for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't pee a lot if the bathroom smelled so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good.

[Monica Padman]

Also very rare.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

To go to a public restroom. And it smelled good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And when I was peeing, I saw there was this can, this, like, big candle lit.

[Mark Brackett]

Huh.

[Monica Padman]

I was like, that's the. That's the cause of this delicious smell. And I went. I was trying to see what the brand is and what it was, and I. I couldn't find it. So I went back to my seat, and I asked the server, what is the candle in the bathroom? I really like it. He said, yeah, we get this a lot. It's specifically made for us.

[Dax Shepard]

You're in a bizarre pattern.

[Monica Padman]

No, is that. I know how to sniff out limited edition.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, you do.

[Monica Padman]

And. And. And he said, oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Where were we? Where you wanted to get the candle holders off the table. Remember that?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, man.

[Dax Shepard]

And I tried to find those can Again, back to my bad gift giving. And I tried to find those candle holders, and I was unsuccessful.

[Monica Padman]

Shoot, I don't even remember.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So many things you like at restaurants. It would be hard to.

[Monica Padman]

When I walk through the world, I

[Dax Shepard]

am like, you're like Terminator, but instead of scanning for risks or threats.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

You're scanning for items.

[Monica Padman]

Beautiful house. That's. Is how I operate. So he said, it's limited. With different words. He said, it's limited. Edish. Then a manager came over, and I said, oh, is this about the candles? And she said, yeah, so we get a shipment every Monday, so we'll be getting more tomorrow. You have a big purse. I don't know if you want to. If you want to go in there. He said that. She said, there's a. There's a lot in there. So there's multiple in there.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. She was giving you.

[Monica Padman]

She was giving me permission, which is why this was tricky.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I just say, one of my favorites early, Early SNL sketches was, I think Eddie Murphy or one of the black cast members went in whiteface. And it was like a fake documentary, like a 60s documentary. So he experienced what it was like to be white. And he goes into a shoe store and he tries on some shoes, and he goes, oh, yeah, these are great. And the guy goes, take them. And he finds out that, like, white people aren't even. Just give it pain for anything. Just take them. And everywhere he went, it was like that.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God, that's hilarious.

[Dax Shepard]

This is basically what happened to you. The owner is just like, just take it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

Not the owner, the manager. Which is why I'm not going to say the name of the place. I don't want her. I don't want to get her in trouble.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

So I went in there with my bag, really excited. Excited. And I open the cabinet, There's a bunch of these candles.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

And so I do I take one, I put it in my purse.

[Dax Shepard]

You have the weirdest life.

[Monica Padman]

I started washing my hands, and I thought, I can't do it.

[Mark Brackett]

Oh, can't do it.

[Monica Padman]

I took it out, put it back.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And.

[Dax Shepard]

And that's kind of good karma. Karmically.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

He's gotta figure out how to buy them or talk about them enough on here.

[Monica Padman]

And I. Now I can't say the place, so I really put myself in a pickle. Now. I went back to that place and,

[Dax Shepard]

like, will you be in bed thinking about what you're in the mood for to eat, and then you go, and then in your calculations, like, I don't even know what I want to eat, but I want to smell the candle, so I want to go eat at that restaurant. Or I want to see the mug, so I want to eat at that restaurant. Like, are you. Are you deciding to go to places for smells and trinkets they have?

[Monica Padman]

Okay, so twofold. Yes. In that I will pick locations based on ambiance.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right.

[Monica Padman]

And vibe.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But no, like, I wouldn't have gone back to Buda Noki just to see the mugs, because that's, in fact, taunting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay.

[Mark Brackett]

I got you.

[Monica Padman]

I have to have. Have it. Does that make sense?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, of course.

[Monica Padman]

I wonder what that's about. I don't feel safe unless I have it.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Seeing from afar is lame.

[Mark Brackett]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Having it is. Unlame. Write that down. That's a quote.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a new quote.

[Monica Padman]

Yep. Now, anyway, I was back there with some other friends, and a friend offered to take my purse and go get it. This person has not very many morals.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. I know who you're talking about.

[Monica Padman]

No, you don't. Okay, I know who you think I'm talking about, and it's not him. It's not him. It's not Jess.

[Dax Shepard]

I would have thought Anna, too.

[Monica Padman]

It was Anna. Well, you know who I hang out with, so that's part of it. But.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but it's deeper than that. I know Kelly didn't do it. I know I. I know Rachel wasn't going to do that. I mean, Cali. It's not gonna be Laura. It's not gonna be.

[Monica Padman]

Might do it.

[Dax Shepard]

She might.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

She's a.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I shouldn't say that. She's. She would never do something like that. Some of Cali's co workers. Listen, I just found out. Which is exciting.

[Mark Brackett]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Hi, co workers.

[Monica Padman]

So anyway, I said no again.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, great.

[Monica Padman]

And in that. And I really hesitated Because I thought, well, I'm not doing it.

[Dax Shepard]

It's the same thing. You're gonna get something you didn't pay for and you know, you'll know it.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm saying good job.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But I do want.

[Dax Shepard]

You're gonna be able. Who makes this candle?

[Monica Padman]

No, I'm gonna be fine without it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. That's also a good.

[Monica Padman]

I'm gonna be fine. I don't need it. What's it gonna do for my life? Nothing. I mean, it is gonna make my house smell so nice. But.

[Dax Shepard]

But you already have a lot of candles.

[Monica Padman]

I have a lot of candles. I have a lot of great candles. None smell like that, but that's okay. And I'll get through this.

[Dax Shepard]

You'll be stronger for it.

[Monica Padman]

So that. That. That was my almost stealing. Maybe because I stole when I was young and I. I. That's like. That was really bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And apparently my mom cried. Well, that's what my dad told me happened.

[Dax Shepard]

What had you stolen? More than the cookies.

[Monica Padman]

I sold the cookies. And then I stole the boy sand art.

[Dax Shepard]

And your mom cried over that?

[Monica Padman]

Well, my dad told me that, but I think he was lying.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think she did.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think he was trying to guilt me.

[Mark Brackett]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it worked. I know you don't steal anymore. It was a good. What are you gonna say?

[Monica Padman]

Wow, that's good parenting. It is.

[Dax Shepard]

It's great parenting. Your mom. Mother has. Your mother was inconsolable for a week.

[Monica Padman]

Like, she seems fine at night. She's been crying in bed.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't steal next to me.

[Monica Padman]

Well, you tried to steal a. A parking meter.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I did steal a parking meter, so I don't try to rob a 7 11. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

What are you talking about?

[Dax Shepard]

I had a compartment in my head, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

When I was younger and an alcoholic.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna say this one thing. We're going too long and our new goals and I go so long.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

But I was just in Kauai that my 40 hour trip was Kauai. I have not been there in 20 years since my last week of drinking.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Was it Pete? What did it. How did it feel?

[Dax Shepard]

It felt great. Like I saw the guardrail me and the dude smashed into on the way to buy ice. I saw the crazy hotel. Dean and I were at that I went jogging after being awake for three days. Like I saw the stage stuff and I thought, wow, we're back here.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Look how different.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Everything is.

[Monica Padman]

You should be so Proud.

[Dax Shepard]

You made the right turn when you left here. It was a bizarre way to reflect on, like, what was my life like and my mental health 20 years ago when I was there and what is it like today?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And such an obvious decision was made, and I'm now. Now there with a family, and I'm healthy, and. Yeah, it was. It was. It was rad.

[Monica Padman]

Wonderful.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I liked it a lot.

[Monica Padman]

I love that.

[Dax Shepard]

I kind of thought I would never go back there. Yeah. I got invited to go there, so I don't even know I would ever picked it because it's. Yeah, it's my last week, and it was a gnarly week, but it was very fun to be there and just go, like, oh, man, did we dodge a bullet. If we would have stayed the course, a, we wouldn't be alive right now, and B, we would just not have the life we have. So it was. Yeah, it was cool.

[Monica Padman]

That's lovely. Yeah. Great time to reflect. Well, did that do anything for my work anxiety?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. My. My time there was a beautiful. I did. I left all of my worries in Los Angeles and did have a totally carefree, wonderful 40 hours. Is that what you're asking?

[Monica Padman]

Well, sort of, I guess, like, the. The reflection, like, to really, really have a physical reminder of where you were and where you are and understanding, like, the. The stuff that's happening is really, really, really frustrating and not really not fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But in the grand scheme, like, look where you are, what you're doing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I'm aspiring to be there, but I'd be lying if I said I. I could. I mean, one of the tools I'm employing is like, everything's fine. Everything's fine. Everything. Everything at this point could get destroyed, and I'd still be very fine.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I am cycling through that reminder when I'm doing the other things to help, and then I just get caught in the loop, you know, I get caught in the rumination, you know, my sense of injustice going crazy. And so I. Yeah. And then I get stuck in it, and then I say, you're still stuck in it, but it has no effect on being stuck in it.

[Monica Padman]

I know. Have you considered reaching back out to your therapist?

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't consider doing it, but I did have a moment of, like, why aren't you talking to your therapist? This would be a time.

[Monica Padman]

It's a good time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. It did kind of cross my mind, maybe.

[Monica Padman]

It's also easy to forget when you've been out of it for a little bit. How helpful it is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But yes, I. I agree with you and that's probably a good idea.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I don't. I think it's might be a good idea. I had therapy and it was helpful.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So are 90% of Asians lactose intolerant? 70 to 100% of people in East Asia are lactose intolerant.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So yeah, 90s right in there, you

[Dax Shepard]

know, would make you proud of your girl Lincoln. She had to name all 32 countries on a map of Asia for a test and she got 32 out of 30. Wow.

[Monica Padman]

That's incredible.

[Dax Shepard]

She even hit me with the name of a country I didn't even know she knows now. She now.

[Monica Padman]

Awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I thought she was making one up. I get out my Google map.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. When did Missoni and Target do the collab? 2011. Okay. The seahorse situation where you said they're made of dust. Those are sea monkeys.

[Dax Shepard]

Those are sea monkeys. And a lot of commenters pointed that out.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they're sea monkeys. And sea monkeys is a colloquial term for a shrimp. Brine scrimps. And it's really just.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's a power dis.

[Monica Padman]

Yep. And it's very disgusting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, and then I'm going to play one clip before we end here.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. I love a clip. Most memorable moments from the Newlywood game. What's the old urban legend? You know, where's the strangest, most unusual place you ever made whoopy? That was. That was. Didn't make it on the air. But she actually said that. Well, she said, whoops. All of a sudden an urban legend went out there that said. I said, where's the strangest, most unusual place we've ever made whoopee? And the lady was supposed to have said, well, that would be in the butt, Bob. And that never happened. That never happened. About five years ago, I get a call from Game Show Network and they said, you better come down here and

[Mark Brackett]

take a look at this.

[Dax Shepard]

So I go down and take a look at it and there is this little Caucasian lady from Pennsylvania, Right. Her name was Olga. And I said, where's the strangest, most unusual place you've ever made whoopi? And she says, in the ass. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It has to be a location. Oh, oh, sorry. You know, so that asshole that didn't make it on the air, we cuckooed that one out also. What's his name?

[Monica Padman]

Bob Eubanks.

[Dax Shepard]

Bob Eubanks. Bob, if the person in your story's name Is Olga. You don't have to say Caucasian. We could definitely context clear that.

[Monica Padman]

Actually, you know what's funny? I. I almost said. I like that he said that because

[Dax Shepard]

people would say black, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fair. What's the other one there? Famous funny one, which is karate.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, Karate class.

[Dax Shepard]

Karate class?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What one's. What's the setup for that? Is it condiments?

[Mark Brackett]

I think it is condiment.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, is it.

[Dax Shepard]

What's your favorite condiment? Karate class?

[Mark Brackett]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

What's your husband's favorite condiment? Karate class.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think.

[Mark Brackett]

I think here, I can email you it. What will your husband say is his favorite condiment?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I would say his pool table upstairs, Definitely.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's interesting,

[Mark Brackett]

Annette. All right.

[Monica Padman]

I never heard that word before neither.

[Mark Brackett]

So I said karate school.

[Dax Shepard]

Karate school.

[Mark Brackett]

Your husband says his favorite condiment.

[Dax Shepard]

Karate school.

[Monica Padman]

No one knew what condiment was? No.

[Dax Shepard]

I would have thought they were confused it with condom, but they confused it with, like, recreation.

[Monica Padman]

Right. Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Very.

[Monica Padman]

All right. So that's it. We love Anna Kendrick. We were so delighted she came back to us.

[Dax Shepard]

We love her, Love her, love her.

[Monica Padman]

And. Oh, do you want.

[Dax Shepard]

She came to Halloween. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So on the episode, she said she felt bad that she ghosted. And then we invited her Halloween, and she was very, very brave. Came all by herself and joined our family outfit.

[Monica Padman]

She did.

[Dax Shepard]

She was Claire Corning Stone or whatever.

[Monica Padman]

Veronica.

[Dax Shepard]

Veronica Cornington stone from Channel 4 News.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Anchorman. Good job, Anna.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's called growth.

[Dax Shepard]

Growth.

[Monica Padman]

We love it. We love to see it. All right.

[Dax Shepard]

All right. Love.