Michelle Williams

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Episode Featuring Michelle Williams

Release Date: May 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this deeply engaging episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard sits down with the acclaimed actress Michelle Williams. The conversation spans Michelle's illustrious acting career, her personal life, parenting philosophies, and her insights into navigating Hollywood's challenges. Throughout the episode, Michelle shares heartfelt anecdotes, personal reflections, and profound insights, offering listeners a comprehensive glimpse into her multifaceted life.

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Early Life and Career Beginnings

Michelle Williams opens up about her childhood in Kalispell, Montana, depicting it as a time filled with exploration and adventures in nature. She reminisces, "Every day was come back when you hear the dinner bell. And we were free to do whatever we wanted as long as we came home when we heard the dinner bell" (09:14). This freedom fostered her creativity and confidence, traits that would later benefit her acting career.

At the age of 15, Michelle made the bold decision to emancipate herself, thereby taking control of her education through correspondence courses. Reflecting on this, she notes, "I didn't really feel lonely because I had all rambling experiences in nature" (37:43). This independence paved the way for her early acting roles, including appearances on popular shows like Baywatch, Step by Step, and Home Improvement.

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Navigating Hollywood and Notable Roles

Michelle discusses her breakthrough role in "Dawson's Creek" at 16, a pivotal moment that introduced her to a broader audience. She highlights the challenges of being a child actor, stating, "Your heart endures a lot when you are a kid trying to deal with mass rejection daily" (35:18). Despite the uncertainties, Michelle's persistence led her to acclaimed performances in films such as "Blue Valentine", "Brokeback Mountain", "My Week with Marilyn", and "Manchester by the Sea"—her personal favorite.

A significant highlight of the episode is Michelle's portrayal of Marilyn Monroe, where she delves into the complexities of embodying such an iconic figure. She emphasizes the importance of authenticity and vulnerability in her performances, aiming to capture the true essence of her characters without embellishment.

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Personal Life and Parenting Philosophy

Michelle shares intimate details about her life with husband Dax Shepard and their children. She underscores the importance of fostering independence and confidence in her children, drawing parallels to her own upbringing. "I think of them as something that requires some level of attention because of possibility for accident. Yeah, horses, skiing, motorcycles, fishing, all of these things are so important" (12:18).

The couple discusses their ‘bus life’, a nomadic lifestyle that allows their family to explore various environments while maintaining a strong familial bond. Michelle reflects on the balance between career and motherhood, saying, "My best day with my children is better than my best day at work. I am more thrilled with that high than I am with a work high" (48:26). This sentiment resonates throughout the conversation, highlighting the profound joy and fulfillment that parenting brings her.

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Mental Health and Sobriety

The episode touches upon Michelle's journey with mental health and sobriety. Both hosts emphasize the significance of therapy and mental well-being, acknowledging the societal stigmas that still surround these topics. Michelle notes, "We are all better with help. Visit betterhelp.comdax today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.comdax" (02:10), seamlessly integrating the importance of seeking support.

Michelle also discusses her experiences with emotional vulnerability, particularly in the high-stakes environment of acting. She shares how relationship struggles and the pressures of fame have shaped her resilience and emotional intelligence.

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Challenges in the Industry

Michelle candidly addresses the challenges female actors face in Hollywood, including typecasting and the invasive nature of paparazzi. She recounts the formation of the "no kid policy" alongside her wife Kristen, which led to influential changes in how children's images are handled in the media. "It's incredible. I remember the day that People magazine said that they would stop publishing photos of children..." (26:14).

Furthermore, Michelle and Dax discuss the evolving landscape of intimacy coordination in film and television. Michelle reflects on her experiences, "I really have to tell Liz to watch out for herself because she's got, like, a whip on her pen or something" (76:08), highlighting the importance of creating safe and consensual environments for actors during intimate scenes.

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Creative Processes and Storytelling

A significant portion of the conversation delves into Michelle's creative processes, especially her work on "Brokeback Mountain" and "Manchester by the Sea". She describes the intensive improvisations and emotional depth required to portray complex characters authentically. For instance, during the making of "Blue Valentine", she and co-star Derek engaged in improvisational exercises to deepen their on-screen relationship: "We did these improvisations during the day, honestly, to figure out ways to annoy each other" (53:15).

Michelle emphasizes the role of humor as a grounding force, even in the most emotionally charged roles. "Gallows humor. It's not really laughing at something or making a joke because something is sad. The humor is ever present. It's just the ability and the desire to locate it" (85:21).

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Reflections on Legacy and Personal Growth

Towards the end of the episode, Michelle reflects on her legacy and the desire to leave behind a meaningful record for her children. She shares her thoughts on journaling and the importance of being present: "When you're a kid, you look at your parents and you're like, you're my mom. You don't have any desires or passions or dreams. That's why I need to..." (68:10).

Michelle also discusses the impact of life events such as Covid-19 on her family, emphasizing resilience and adaptability. She highlights the significance of maintaining connections and communities despite challenges.

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Closing Remarks

As the episode concludes, Michelle expresses her gratitude towards her peers and the impact of supportive friendships on her personal and professional life. Dax and Monica reflect on their enduring friendship with Michelle, cherishing the genuine connection that transcends professional boundaries. The episode wraps up with lighthearted banter, showcasing the warmth and camaraderie between the hosts and their esteemed guest.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "Every day was come back when you hear the dinner bell. And we were free to do whatever we wanted as long as we came home when we heard the dinner bell." — Michelle Williams (09:14)
• "I didn't really feel lonely because I had all rambling experiences in nature." — Michelle Williams (37:43)
• "We are all better with help. Visit betterhelp.comdax today to get 10% off your first month." — Michelle Williams (02:10)
• "It's incredible. I remember the day that People magazine said that they would stop publishing photos of children." — Michelle Williams (26:14)
• "My best day with my children is better than my best day at work. I am more thrilled with that high than I am with a work high." — Michelle Williams (48:26)
• "Gallows humor. It's not really laughing at something or making a joke because something is sad. The humor is ever present. It's just the ability and the desire to locate it." — Michelle Williams (85:21)
• "When you're a kid, you look at your parents and you're like, you're my mom. You don't have any desires or passions or dreams." — Michelle Williams (68:10)

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Conclusion

This episode of Armchair Expert offers an intimate and comprehensive look into Michelle Williams' life, blending her professional achievements with personal narratives. Her authenticity and openness provide valuable insights into balancing career ambitions with personal fulfillment, the importance of mental health, and the power of supportive relationships. Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation for Michelle's dedication to her craft and her unwavering commitment to her family.

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For more insights and in-depth conversations, follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App, YouTube, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. You know, I, I saw a comment, I said, dan Shepard, as I do often.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And someone wrote, why, Dan? And I wrote, I know you're a new listener. Welcome.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, nice.

[Dax Shepard]

And then the person wrote, you're right. I started listening like eight weeks ago or something.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. And I said, oh, I just get bored saying my name.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Oh, I thought, I get bored easy.

[Monica Padman]

I thought maybe he was asking, like, what's. Is there an original impetus for it?

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I always think of the worst thing. Right. That's my gift. So my assumption when someone says that is more like they've found out Dax was a bullshit name. Like, it was my stage name. That's what I maybe fear.

[Monica Padman]

That's funny.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyways, I'm joined by Monica Lily Padman. Real name, real name, on your birth certificate and your driver's license. Today we have one of the most acclaimed actors we've had on the show.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Michelle Williams.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, she's so good.

[Dax Shepard]

I wish it said right here, but I want to say it's like five Academy Award nominations or something bonkers. Definitely four. And I think maybe five Emmy win. Tony Nomin. Yeah, she's just a powerhouse. Blue Valentine. Dawson's Creek, originally. That's where we fell in love with her. Brokeback Mountain. My Week with Marilyn. Manchester by the Sea. My favorite.

[Monica Padman]

Five nominations.

[Dax Shepard]

Five nominations. And her new series that's out now. With my former boss, Liz Meriwether dying for sex on FX and Hulu right now, I urge everyone to go watch it. It's very bold. It goes horrid.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it does.

[Dax Shepard]

Please enjoy Michelle Williams. We are supported by Better Help. We've had a lot of talk recently about therapy when we had other Monica on, and how helpful it is in steering your way through so much of this quagmire. That is your own perception.

[Monica Padman]

I just got a friend of mine into therapy and they really, really are liking it already.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good. Mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to be made. 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey say they have avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment. When people hesit to get help, it doesn't just affect them, it impacts families, workplaces, and entire communities. This mental health awareness month, let's encourage Everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy. BetterHelp has over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapists. There are over 30,000 licensed therapists to choose from from diverse backgrounds with a wide range of specialties. They make it easy to find a therapist who fits your specific needs. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.comdax today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.comdax we are supported by Claude, the AI assistant. That just feels different, you know. We're curious about the old artificial intelligence here on the pod. We are curious and we always want to give our armchairs the if you know, you know tips.

[Monica Padman]

We sure do.

[Dax Shepard]

So they need to meet our new pal, Claude. While other AIs sound like robots, Claude just gets it with the emotional intelligence. Whether I'm researching guests or refining my latest meal plan to get Brad Pitt's abs or looking for the best dating advice to give Monica, Claude is the fact checker in your pocket while you're in the armchair.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's exciting for us. I like having an extra companion.

[Dax Shepard]

Welcome to the team, Claude. You can try Claude for free [e-mail] that's C L A U D E dot com. That's a tour bus. My neighbors think Aerosmith's spending the night.

[Michelle Williams]

Guys, that's so fun and amazing. The kids must love that.

[Dax Shepard]

They do. In fact, last year we were going to go up to Idaho and everyone was busy. So Kristen was like, let's just fly. We had driven the previous four years in the bus. And the kids were like, we're not going unless we're on the bus.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm so jealous.

[Dax Shepard]

They have bunk beds.

[Michelle Williams]

That's my absolute dream for my kids. I once took Matilda in like an RV on like a big road trip. And I was like, this is the greatest. Oh my God. It's incredible for kids. Like, I want to get like a old VW bus and like retrofit it.

[Monica Padman]

Make it cute.

[Dax Shepard]

A micro bus bus.

[Michelle Williams]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Give me a m. What would you like to drink?

[Monica Padman]

We have coffee.

[Dax Shepard]

You got to go pee pee.

[Michelle Williams]

I know. I'm great. I wouldn't mind a water.

[Dax Shepard]

It's an extra iced Matcha if you want.

[Monica Padman]

Are you coming?

[Dax Shepard]

Want an extra iced Matcha?

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, no, I have to think about that. It might be a little too late for me. I might be up all night.

[Monica Padman]

You said that. So flirty.

[Michelle Williams]

I need at a Party.

[Dax Shepard]

I go to bed early.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it's my favorite thing about coming to LA. Cuz by 9 o' clock I'm totally comose and I can't even fight it and pretend to stay up and keep accomplish. It feels like just being drugged. I feel like I'm put under and I love it.

[Dax Shepard]

We want to thank you. We haven't been up here in a long time.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We've been downstairs where there's video and so we haven't been in the attic for a long time.

[Monica Padman]

We used to only do this and then we were forced to add video. But we like it now. We like it. We've been doing it a lot. But this is the original space and it's really nice.

[Michelle Williams]

It's so cozy. We're very happy to be here.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot of tears in here. A lot of laughter. A lot of everything.

[Monica Padman]

A lot of probably toots.

[Dax Shepard]

There's been some unfortunate.

[Michelle Williams]

It's a small room for tooting.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Well, we invite it.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't ever do it when there's guests, but Monica would sit where you're at for the fact check. This is a questionable distance. Right.

[Michelle Williams]

It's also that chair is like a sound absorber.

[Dax Shepard]

Sound absorber and just a muffler in general. And probably absorbent. Well, I know absorbent. And so a lot of times I'm like, yeah, I think that's far enough away for me to try one. And I've gotten away with most of them. I usually out myself.

[Monica Padman]

No. Yeah, you do a good job.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a lot of integrity, Michelle.

[Michelle Williams]

That's so honest.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot of tude integrity. Why were you late? What have you been doing? Not to out you for being late.

[Michelle Williams]

Podcast.

[Dax Shepard]

You've been Bob around previous Podcast radio, npr.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I was at npr.

[Dax Shepard]

What show were you doing? Were you with Larry Mantle?

[Michelle Williams]

No, I was not with Larry Mantle.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you know Larry Mantle?

[Michelle Williams]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. This is one of my wife's huge crushes.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know who that is.

[Dax Shepard]

She's in love with Larry Mantel. He's a longtime kcrw npr. He hosts a few shows. He's got a very steady, calming voice. He's older, but that's not who you were with.

[Michelle Williams]

You have a very steady, calming voice.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, thank you so much.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Who were you?

[Monica Padman]

Just exploded.

[Michelle Williams]

I have to tune in. You know, it's a tough day for npr.

[Dax Shepard]

I know it hasn't been cut, but it's being threatened to be cut. That and pbs.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I rely on Frontline.

[Monica Padman]

I can't I can't. The fact that these are real things.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. These are things that must go.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. You got. Well, what are we going to do? What's the plan? I think the plan might be to get in your.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

Is that a skull?

[Monica Padman]

T. Rex.

[Dax Shepard]

We have a lot to catch you up on. Monica and I want to invest in a real T. Rex skull. They're very expensive, but we want to monetize it by renting out the mouth and turn it into a sex hotel because people would love to have sex in the mouth of a T. Rex.

[Monica Padman]

It's very novel.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm sad nobody can see my face right now.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you think?

[Michelle Williams]

Whoa.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Is that like, whoa positive? Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

Whoa.

[Monica Padman]

Or just mind blowing in general?

[Dax Shepard]

Is it the level of creativity that has your mind blowing?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, kind of. I'm also just, like, thinking, like, what would I do in that cell?

[Dax Shepard]

Right? Yeah. You would hold onto a tooth at some point.

[Michelle Williams]

I think you guys go for it.

[Monica Padman]

Each room has a tooth, Michelle.

[Dax Shepard]

They're so expensive. We heard that Leonardo DiCaprio has a full skeleton. And I used to know the price tag on it.

[Monica Padman]

We looked it up once. I forget.

[Dax Shepard]

It's outrageous. They're very pricey. Limited edition.

[Michelle Williams]

One of my little guys is a dino man. And we just got that new Apex at the Museum of Natural History.

[Monica Padman]

Ooh.

[Dax Shepard]

What's Apex?

[Michelle Williams]

It's a perfect stegosaurus specimen that's cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Just landed.

[Monica Padman]

Ooh. They call it an Apex if it's perfect.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you read.

[Michelle Williams]

That's his name? I think. I think. Look, I'm working really hard to catch up to his level of dino knowledge.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's hard to compete. They gobble it up. Have you read Unstoppable Us to him?

[Michelle Williams]

No, I don't know that one.

[Dax Shepard]

It's Yuval Harari, who wrote Sapiens. He did a kid's version of Sapiens. We've read it to our kids several times. It's incredible.

[Michelle Williams]

Fantastic. His birthday's coming up. Thank you so much.

[Dax Shepard]

They found many of these dinosaurs. Ding, ding, ding. In your birthplace. Isn't Montana a big site for these skeletons?

[Michelle Williams]

I think it's why my son loves me. It's a big point of connection for us that Montana is home to so many dinosaurs. Especially the Maiasaura, the great mother lizard. Ooh.

[Dax Shepard]

You know your shit.

[Michelle Williams]

We're deep in. And so my real claim to fame inside my home is that I am also from Montana, land of many dinosaurs.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you close to Billings or some city?

[Michelle Williams]

I grew up in a town Called Kalispell, which was quite small when I was growing up, but now it's become kind of a big box town. Kalispell is a beautiful place, but it's close to Whitefish Lake, Flathead Lake, and God bless you.

[Monica Padman]

Sorry.

[Michelle Williams]

God bless you.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you.

[Monica Padman]

I'm embarrassed.

[Dax Shepard]

I've seen a lot of cute smiles in my life. I know Michelle's might be there.

[Monica Padman]

It's very disarming.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. I just imagine a guy pointing a gun at you and saying, like, give me your money. And you hit him with that smile.

[Michelle Williams]

Do you think this is my best defense?

[Dax Shepard]

I feel so silly. What am I?

[Monica Padman]

How could I hurt this little bee?

[Michelle Williams]

That's good to know. Because somebody told me recently that you should just go for the eyes. But I think instead I'll just give.

[Dax Shepard]

A big smile because it's so disarming and then boom. To the eyes.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I thought that was actually really helpful. I hadn't heard the eye thing before. That was new information to me.

[Dax Shepard]

That feels like a high probability of failure because you got to practice.

[Michelle Williams]

And who are you going to practice on?

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, that's another thing. We could invent a practice dummy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. With some kind of gooey eye, squishy eye, polyurethane on it.

[Michelle Williams]

That's a great one.

[Monica Padman]

And it could also double as a. What do they call it, Like a sensory slime, fidgetoid, all that kind of stuff.

[Michelle Williams]

This is a brainstorming addict.

[Dax Shepard]

We tried to come up with at least seven good ideas per interview. Okay, so, Montana, you were there till 9?

[Michelle Williams]

I was. Have you taken the bus?

[Dax Shepard]

Actually, I have. In fact, I was towing an obnoxious trailer and we went. I'm embarrassed to admit, but, like one of these conferences. And it was at Yellowstone, that fancy place. And then everything is set for you. But I had to call ahead and I said, so I have a 45 foot bus and a 22 foot trailer. Is there any place to park for me? And they're like, no, we're going to have to meet you at this service lot with the snow plows. So we had to park there and then get shuttled into there.

[Michelle Williams]

Was there a real learning curve with that thing?

[Dax Shepard]

For most people, yeah. But I grew up working for General Motors and I've been driving really large things since I was young.

[Michelle Williams]

So you're very comfortable.

[Dax Shepard]

Some would argue too confident.

[Michelle Williams]

Got it.

[Dax Shepard]

Kristen often says she can't wait for the day that she sees me parallel park as quick as I do and fuck up. She's like, you know, your Powers are gonna fade and I just can't wait till you just fucking blast into a car, take out the side of the. She's really looking forward to that. But Montana, did you have the childhood I would fantasize about?

[Michelle Williams]

I really did. I think I had the last great American childhood. Except for your children.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Michelle Williams]

Because they have bus life and you're taking them into the national park system.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm jealous of that.

[Michelle Williams]

They're getting what I had.

[Dax Shepard]

They have as many motorcycles as I have. They are so well equipped.

[Michelle Williams]

I love this. So do the motorcycles go on the bus?

[Dax Shepard]

They go on the back of the bus. If we don't have the trailer, then we have this big big tray. And I put my 11 year old daughter's motorcycle, now 12, her motorcycle, my motorcycle. And then two electrics for the non enthusiasts.

[Michelle Williams]

And is her motorcycle gas?

[Dax Shepard]

Gas. But they have electric as well.

[Michelle Williams]

Matilda, my daughter, grew up with electric vehicles.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a very good esteem builder. The theory I had was she'll be sitting in class next to somebody and she'll be feeling insecure, but she'll go, I ride a dirt bike. And they don't do that. And that's just one thing. You just need something to cobble together a little confidence.

[Michelle Williams]

I couldn't agree more. Real confidence based on doing things that are scary and knowing that you are capable and that you can trust yourself and that you have good judgment.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna add, it's a real bonus too, if even the boys in your class can't do it.

[Michelle Williams]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

For girls especially, you were fishing and you were shooting guns as a kid, right?

[Michelle Williams]

We were clay pigeons. Shooting. But I didn't go hunting necessarily, but I went fishing. And I had a lot of those experiences in nature of getting confidence through practical life. Skills that required some level of attention because of possibility for accident. Yeah, horses, skiing, motorcycles, fishing, all of these things are so important. You think of them as they're typically male, but they're most especially important for girls.

[Monica Padman]

Did you grow up with motorcycles?

[Michelle Williams]

No, I didn't have any dirt bikes when I was growing up. But they were a part of my program for Matilda when she was growing up.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow, your program?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. So when I grew up in Montana, my big experience there was being on my great grandparents farm. They had cattle, wheat and horses. We lived in town where the grocery store was.

[Dax Shepard]

Town in quotes.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, town. And they lived more in the middle of the state and they lived on the farm in a much more rural environment. And that's where a lot of my exploring but we were also skiers, mind you. Do I ski now? No. Do I ride a dirt bike now? No. Do I fish? No. But I have all of those things inside of me. They really were formative in my ideas about who I could be. So that when you're sitting in class and you're next to some jerky guy who's trying to stick his finger in your nose, you're like, no, no, no, no, no. I know myself to be worth more than this.

[Dax Shepard]

They're also really great little trials of being afraid. All these things. You would start with fear, unless something's wrong with you. So just these little ways to confront fear and then get comfortable and then have the pride of having confronted it. All those things are really good. How about even on grandparents farm, going on a long walk where you're like, oh, yeah, I'm a little scared.

[Michelle Williams]

That was my whole childhood. Every day was come back when you hear the dinner bell. And we were free to do whatever we wanted as long as we came home when we heard the dinner bell. And so it gave us so much time to meander and explore and go down these dirt roads and ride bikes and discover little things and find treasures and take them home and hide them and then take them out in the middle of the night when they thought that we were sleeping and, you know, just getting into good trouble. And I miss it so much. For my own children, I'm constantly thinking about how to create these experiences. But as you know, it's difficult. It requires a lot of infrastructure and undertaking if you live in an urban environment to try and get them out. So can I please? Come on. Is there room for a family of six?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, we will make room. I might have to tow another living quarters behind it.

[Monica Padman]

You would love to get another bus.

[Dax Shepard]

Going, but I can't drive both at one time. Or can I?

[Monica Padman]

Michelle can drive it.

[Michelle Williams]

I actually can.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. You saw it. Fuck it. Take it for a rip. When this is all done, we'll give you a little chest. But you know what else is happening on those walks? You scare yourself. That's fun. But then also your imagination's on fire. Because as beautiful it is, it's also boring. You got to now pretend on this bike ride that you're something important. I had to make myself some explore. And you're really trying on all kinds of different fun pretend identities.

[Michelle Williams]

You're starting acting. You have to start to storytell with the landscape too. What is that abandoned house? We shouldn't go in it. There's probably a witch. Yeah, Ooh, yeah. There's a witch that lives in that house. And then that becomes part of the play and part of the fantasy. But it just requires tremendous boredom, tremendous freedom and a total lack of supervision. And where are you gonna get that these days?

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Michelle Williams]

So how do you do that here as from getting out of here?

[Dax Shepard]

We have been criticized for this publicly. We let our kids go. I've encouraged them. You want to walk to the store? Go to the store. We were in Denmark and there's the Truffoli Park. And so in the morning we just say to the girls, goodbye, here's a credit card. You can spend X amount. And then here's the time you got to meet us. So we're very big into just turning them over to the world and hoping for the best. It's worked. So true. Do you know Leonor Skenazy? She is this proponent of free range parenting. She's great. We interviewed her and she was letting her kid ride the subway at a very young age, but he had mastered the subway. People called her the worst mom in America.

[Monica Padman]

Abuse claims.

[Dax Shepard]

And the kids fine and did great. So we're proposing to that.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm with you guys.

[Monica Padman]

Also Jonathan Haidt. He has the new book Anxious Generation. This is sort of his antidote to all the stuff that's happening with kids and the isolation is make them have a community, but leave. Go send them off to go explore.

[Dax Shepard]

Unsupervised, as you said, that's the key. But yeah, crossing a river and this had to happen to you a ton. You gotta cross the river and you gotta jump on the different rocks to get over there. You need a story in your head of why we must cross this river because we're being chased. It's so good.

[Michelle Williams]

The other thing that happens when you're in a natural environment is that you are learning so many lessons. You're in a receptive state, not a defensive state, because it's not your parent, it's not your teacher. It is the thrill of your skin in the wind and the understanding that your survival depends on you and only you. And so you're constantly assessing your own comfort with danger and your own ability to keep yourself safe. So when you learn that with an impartial teacher like nature, you can take that into the rest of your life and really fall back into yourself and say, I know myself to be a person who makes good decisions. I know myself to be somebody who can keep myself safe and balanced. And that feedback loop that a child gets when they decide which rocks Are the safe rocks. Which one isn't slippery, which one isn't too pointy? When they're quite literally getting their footing, it is feeding their body with information about how to take risks. It's very challenging to figure out how to do that today. Denmark is a great place to do that. You were just doing what the Danes do. I mean, that's the Danish way.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, even better. You see like up in Sweden and stuff, they leave their babies outside in the pram in the cold. They're going to the store and there's just babies lined up.

[Monica Padman]

And don't they have playgrounds here that are specifically to get kind of hurt designed so that there's tools and stuff? Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

To play with and nails and real shit.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

We should raise some children in a commune. I think we're lost.

[Michelle Williams]

So like minded. I mean, don't get me started talking about cell phones.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you moved to San Diego when you're nine. Why did we move to San Diego?

[Michelle Williams]

The weather.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Had enough of those winters.

[Michelle Williams]

My parents did. I was quite happy there. Such a good life. But the winter that we moved, it hadn't gotten above 40 below. So off to San Diego we.

[Dax Shepard]

And how did you take to San Diego? That's a big cultural shift.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it was a real shock. I don't think I'd seen a freeway before. I was surprised that everybody's house looked like everybody else's house. These big swaths of tracked housing developments built along a freeway. And you know, when you're a kid, you don't really feel the cold. It doesn't register with you as something that you have to gird yourself for because you have so many fun things that you can do in the cold.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

Now at 44, I'm like, woo, I'm cold. Can't handle it.

[Dax Shepard]

I've gotten cold in my old age.

[Monica Padman]

It's amazing how quickly you adjust to that California lifestyle.

[Dax Shepard]

So I'm gonna go by the lore. Some of this might be apocryphal, but you see the Adventures of Tom Sawyer, you see that play and you're intrigued.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, we went to go see a play in my memory, sort of an abandoned shopping mall. And the ceiling is dripping and the folding chairs are metal. And you walk through a backstage where you see these child actors in various stages of hair and makeup and playing games and braiding each other's hair and costumes. And so I saw the kind of inner workings. And then we watched this play.

[Dax Shepard]

That's interesting that you saw that first.

[Michelle Williams]

That's what I really love.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right, right, right.

[Michelle Williams]

That's my favorite part. The behind the scenes, the people, the community, the friendships, the safe space, the chosen family. That's the stuff that I really care get excited about.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. The combined goal, all the business that goes into it.

[Michelle Williams]

I just remember holding onto my seat, thinking it was gonna take off. Like I was on an airplane. Because I was so transported into this play that I was watching with kids my age. And they seemed like they were having so much fun and singing and dancing. And I thought, oh, I'd like to be a part of this. Whatever this thing is. And so that continued to be something that I did the whole time that I was in San Diego. Always more of a chorus girl. More like an orphan orphan. San's name just back row Tapper.

[Dax Shepard]

Cause Annie was your first thing?

[Michelle Williams]

I think so. I was a back row orphan.

[Dax Shepard]

I think Annie's a gateway drug.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because my daughter's about to do it in a month, and our other friend's kid is currently doing Annie at the same time.

[Michelle Williams]

Songs like that, they hook into you, and then you think you should spend your whole life singing them, and you would be a happy person.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Did you want to be a singer?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I really wanted to sing and dance. That just looked like a whole lot of fun to me.

[Dax Shepard]

But were you good at singing or dancing?

[Michelle Williams]

Born with just enough to cobble together the ability to do this. A passable voice and some workable feet, but not prodigious.

[Dax Shepard]

You sang as Marilyn?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I have enough musicality that I can pull certain things off and also have an ear for accents.

[Monica Padman]

I was talking about this with a friend last night. Cause I went to the Beyonce concert, and this is a very, very good singer I was with. And we decided that you can kind of, with training, raise yourself 3 degrees. If you're born as a 7, which is very high, you could get to a 10. But if you're born a 3, you're not getting to a 10. Even if you work so hard, you're probably gonna max out at a six or seven. It's so true with singing and dancing.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But do we think that could extend to some other things, like comedy? I don't think you can train yourself from a three.

[Monica Padman]

To me, I think comedy is a more learned skill in general. Singing.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. You have some anatomy that's gonna limit.

[Michelle Williams]

Exactly. You have to have a range.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, that's it. Comedy. I think if you're in the right circ, if you have enough trauma.

[Dax Shepard]

See, that's the thing. I think there's an archetype of the brain that is similar.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. And your trauma could come later, so your humor could develop.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

It's never too late to be a great comedian.

[Monica Padman]

And if you're around comedy a ton, you do start infiltrating that a little bit more.

[Dax Shepard]

You learn some tricks.

[Monica Padman]

You can listen to as much music as you want.

[Michelle Williams]

You're not gonna be Beyonce.

[Monica Padman]

No, you're not.

[Dax Shepard]

I need to admit something to you. I don't know that I've ever done this, but you make me really nervous.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, no.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's a good feeling, though. It's a good kind of nervous, but I don't really get nerv, and I can feel nervousness in my body.

[Monica Padman]

I'm kind of nervous, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I was just wondering, you guys.

[Michelle Williams]

This guy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. That smile really takes me.

[Dax Shepard]

It's, like, kind of maniacal. It's so cute and scary.

[Monica Padman]

That's the best combo.

[Michelle Williams]

I've never been described like this, and I didn't know that I had the ability to unnerve anyone. Do you think maybe you were just.

[Dax Shepard]

Missing it and no one told you?

[Michelle Williams]

What was I missing?

[Dax Shepard]

You're powerful, and you make people nervous. Oh, good.

[Michelle Williams]

I got her.

[Monica Padman]

I know what it is.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me what it is.

[Monica Padman]

You are very measured and in control of yourself. It also seems clear in a beautiful way. You're not going to go anywhere you don't want to go. You have full control.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm sloppy, and I'm like. I want the interplay to be right, but, yeah, I'm a sloppy mess that I somehow landed. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I'm like, we don't deserve to be doing this. Hey, Dex, I think we should stop.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, Kristen did tell me. I said, you know Michelle a little bit, right? And she said, yeah, I love her. We have a lot of mutual friends, which makes me feel closer to her than we actually are. But she said she speaks very poetically. I love how she speaks.

[Monica Padman]

I've already gotten that.

[Michelle Williams]

You guys just get me on that bus and let me. Let me show you when there's not a microphone on my face. Okay. It is a cocktail elsewhere. I'm obsessed with your wife. She changed our life.

[Dax Shepard]

You can include me. I wrote the essay.

[Michelle Williams]

Did you?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I wrote the thing that went viral. I didn't need to take credit for that. A really good version of me would have just let her have credit for that. She did more. More ultimately, than I did, but I wrote a thing I was so upset, I just put it on Tumblr. Okay. When Lincoln was born, there were paparazzi living on the driveway for a long time. And every time we left, we covered her with a blanket. We went to so many lengths to not let a photograph of her get taken. And we were at the Hansen's house, Deep Valley. I wasn't even thinking of leaving their house. And then my mom texted me, like, oh, I'm so sorry. And it's a picture of Lincoln. And I was. I can even say now, maybe over. But I was just so upset about it that I wrote this long thing and I put it on Tumbl and then somehow got picked up by the Huffington Post and all these places. And then that led to talk shows inviting us to argue with paparazzi, which we did. And this is where she deserves all the credit, Kristen. She built a coalition of other actors, basically saying, we will no longer participate in these magazines if they don't stop showing kids. It was called the no kid policy. And she got all the photo houses to commit to that, which was pretty powerful. And I do give her all the credit for that.

[Michelle Williams]

It was incredible. I remember the day that People magazine said that they would stop publishing photos of children. And I was like, wow, this whole structure collapsed. Cause it had been such a problem for us for so many years and had limited our life.

[Dax Shepard]

You had a really rough version of it.

[Michelle Williams]

Unmanageable, unlivable. But I didn't know what to do. I just cried and moved to a different place then to see these ideas that you guys were having and then this action around it and then this change. I wrote to her at the time, and I sent her a picture of Matilda smiling on the beach. Because before that, Matilda didn't like to have her photo taken. Because that experience was taken from her and she didn't feel ownership over her image. And so even with friends and family, that was a place where she could express a boundary and say, no, I don't want my picture taken. But when that system crumbled, she smiled for the camera on the beach.

[Dax Shepard]

God, that makes me happy.

[Michelle Williams]

And they sent that?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, she came in and read that to me. That was really nice. Nice of you to send. Even. Forget the cameras. Just imagine you take your kids out and there's seven men in fatigues that just run in a circle around you. That's such a bizarre human experience for a little kid.

[Monica Padman]

For anyone.

[Dax Shepard]

It's kind of nuts, the shit. When we look back, what was totally acceptable, you look at Britney's life at the apex. And you're like, that's just an assault.

[Michelle Williams]

I think that what happens is that people assume those children have other advantages and so they aren't able to empathize with them.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's just the price you have to pay. And they're right in some degree. Agree, at least saying you chose that. Right. And I would agree. You go into acting, you would have to have your head in the sand to think that if I get popular enough, I might not have to deal with that. Now, we could have another debate about whether you really need to deal with that because you want to act, but your kids didn't choose that. That's an insane proposition. That the kids made the decision to be born to the parents who made the decision. That's like sins of our father stuff.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. Has it really just gone away?

[Dax Shepard]

I believe so. By the way, the added benefit for us was we're always with our kids, so we don't really deal with it at all.

[Monica Padman]

I also think part of what has changed is Instagram. This is maybe the positive part of Instagram. You don't need to go to the grocery store and flip through this horrible magazine to find a picture of someone's kid. A lot of people post pictures of their kids that are chosen and they're curated so it's available.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, you're getting a photo in their house of them smiling. You have this new access that they're in control of. So it's more interesting. I do think that overall just kind of crippled that industry. Although there seems to be a market still for Ben Affleck and Justin Bieber. Those two seem to still be living.

[Michelle Williams]

And their children prison.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Also, we started the beginning of this conversation talking about the importance of kids being able to be out in free range and running around. And if they can't because there are people taking pictures of them, that's an added layer of what they're imprisoned by, which is so unfair.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. Something that they shouldn't have to think about.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, then you add in there the kid that's arriving at school with a gang. It's already hard enough to fudgeing. Go to school.

[Michelle Williams]

Embarrassing.

[Dax Shepard]

You need to do more than riding motorcycles to overcome that. That deficit you've assumed. Okay, now this is a thrilling part of your story. You start acting. You're on Baywatch as your first one. Incredible. How old were you on Baywatch?

[Michelle Williams]

Probably 12.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. That's young for Baywatch.

[Dax Shepard]

You were a temptress to a young man. Was that the storyline?

[Michelle Williams]

No. I was just a girl running in a bikini on the beach and inviting him to wait.

[Monica Padman]

Were you?

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

At 12.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, no.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. Times really have changed.

[Michelle Williams]

Yes. Just a girl jogging in a bikini, as we do.

[Monica Padman]

Very normal.

[Dax Shepard]

And then you're in Lassie and you're in Step by Step. You were in Home Improvement. You were like, working.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I really was. That's a three, four year span of time. So it was guest thing here, guest thing there, commercial here, commercial there. Enough to keep going and to be sustenative. You're going out on three things a.

[Dax Shepard]

Day and you're in San Diego, so you're going to la A time.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. So we're like going back and forth.

[Monica Padman]

Oof.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you taking the train or are you driving?

[Michelle Williams]

Driving.

[Dax Shepard]

Mom's driving you.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, Mom's driving. There's some other kids in San Diego. And there's just kind of this idea in the air that, hey, you can go to LA and you can audition for things, and then you might be in Hollywood. And there were some people who fell under that spell and there were some minivans doing that shuttle back and forth, and you'd go to your cattle call, and then you'd go get a cookie at the mall and you'd turn around and do your homework in the backseat by a little and go home.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, now this is the part that's really unique, is you got emancipated at 15 and you had to do all of high school in nine months.

[Michelle Williams]

I did. When I got emancipated, when I read.

[Dax Shepard]

That, I was like, can that be done?

[Michelle Williams]

I know. I'll tell you what, it really makes me feel like that skull right there, I'm like, wait, how long ago was that? Are you sure that that was this lifetime that we're talking about? Because, Charlie, you can't do that anymore. It's a very strange thing because you have all these child labor laws, and when you're a child actor, you need to have a. You can only work a certain number of hours, and you need to have a guardian, like a social worker who's concerned with your safety. And if you do something called being emancipated, you don't have to have any of those. You're an adult. Nobody's looking after you, nobody's teaching you, and you can work whenever you want, whatever they want.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Was this your idea?

[Michelle Williams]

It was an idea. Other kids were doing it. There was a movie of the week about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay, great. That's helpful. It looked fun.

[Michelle Williams]

Then it just sort of happened. Cause I was a child. I don't fully know the innocent ins and outs of it.

[Dax Shepard]

I would guess you have two vastly different perspectives. One now as an adult who's been around 13 year olds and 15 year olds, and then the 15 year old you who probably thought you were 26.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. Who couldn't really like see into the future to understand ramifications or what practical life would look like then. Now looking back and feeling, I'm just so lucky.

[Dax Shepard]

It could have gone crazy. What age were you when you moved to Brad Burbank?

[Michelle Williams]

15. I was sort of bouncing around those valley apartments.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you ever at the Oak Ward?

[Michelle Williams]

Sure was.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you see the documentary about it?

[Michelle Williams]

No, I don't think I can.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I think you should. It'd probably be so PTSD for you.

[Michelle Williams]

I probably have some friends from the past.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Addie Flavanserin, the Little Pink Pill. Ask your doctor if the FDA approved Little Pink Pill. Addi is right for you. See full prescribing information, medication guide and boxed warning regarding severe low blood pressure and fainting in certain settings@a d d y I.com PI or call 844-PINK PILL.

[Michelle Williams]

At 24, I lost my narrative. Or rather it was stolen from me.

[Monica Padman]

And the Monica Lewinsky friends and family.

[Michelle Williams]

Knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up, they connected with the people that I'm talking to.

[Monica Padman]

And leave with maybe some nuggets that.

[Michelle Williams]

Help them feel a little more hopeful.

[Monica Padman]

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the.

[Michelle Williams]

Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Monica Padman]

You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery.

[Michelle Williams]

In the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Dax Shepard]

And were you living on your own at 15?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I got emancipated at 15 and a half and then I got Dawson's Creek when I was 16. So then I was transported very quickly to Wilmington, North Carolina, which was a much safer, sounder environment to be a young person on their own.

[Dax Shepard]

You said at one point and I will get it Wrong, but something to the effect of there's a. A lot of scary people or dangerous people in la, and I met many.

[Monica Padman]

Of them during that period.

[Dax Shepard]

Was it fucking terrifying? That sounds insane.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I think it was. And I thank God that I got that show and that it plucked me out and landed me on this sleepy southern coastal town and that I had a job to go to and a place to be responsible to, and met a few people there that are still in my life that I love very much, that are so much a part of me and. And had some kind of stability.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So, yeah, when you got Dawson's Creek, you got very lucky. That's kind of a little life raft at that moment.

[Michelle Williams]

It was really great and I really wanted it and I was so excited. And, you know, when you go on so many auditions and you get down to the wire on things, there's so many heartbreaks that you go through as a child actor. The things that you almost get or the things that you never hear from again, even though you wanted them so badly. Your heart endures a lot when you are a kid trying to deal with mass rejection daily and the stress of.

[Dax Shepard]

Supporting yourself in Burbank.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it was weird.

[Dax Shepard]

What was the age of the other folks? Were they a little older than you?

[Michelle Williams]

They were legal adults. 18, 19, 20.

[Dax Shepard]

They didn't do high school in nine.

[Michelle Williams]

Months, but they did not do, let's be honest, it was correspondence school.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you get a ged? Is that what you ended up with?

[Michelle Williams]

Internet. So I'd like for you to imagine what that might look like.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's great. You wouldn't know it while talking to you.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a testament to forgetting about school.

[Michelle Williams]

Exactly.

[Monica Padman]

This is not a good endorsement school.

[Michelle Williams]

The only thing that matters to me is Fin's going to college.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you?

[Michelle Williams]

I did read. I loved books, so I had that on my side. I could always just turn to a book if I had a question about something in life.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's expanding your vocabulary.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. And I would read novels, but I would also read books about history. I mean, the gaps in my knowledge, they're everywhere. So I would go to Barnes and Noble, and not only would I get the novels that I wanted to read, but I would also get an incomplete education or a beginner's guide to world geography.

[Monica Padman]

We've had a few people on who have left school early, and they're always the smartest people in the room because of this. They have this idea that the reason they don't know things is because of their Lack of schooling, so they're making up for it. Whereas if you've gone through all this schooling, you're like, yeah, I just don't know that because I don't know. There's no hang up about it. Does that make sense?

[Dax Shepard]

Yep. So that's one theory. That's a good theory. My theory is almost similar to me going to college. Like, I retained so much from college and other people didn't, but I wasn't there because I had to be there. I got to study whatever I wanted. I was not trying to get a career in anything. So I think if you weren't educated and then you set out to learn, you want to, not something you're forced to do. It's like the decision to pursue this and that just makes all the difference in the world.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. When you really want it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I remember distinctly arguing a guy drunk in Detroit when I was 19, and he just mopped the floor with me. I didn't know what the I was talking about. I didn't know it was Egypt 10 years ago, or was it like 900 years ago and it was 3,000 years ago? I remember just being humiliated with how little I knew in that argument. And that was like a big moment. I'm like, oh, I'm stupid.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. And you want to be able to cross pollinate and to be able to sit next to anybody and have a point of contact for their frames of reference. That became clear to me.

[Monica Padman]

Did you have an interesting relationship with adults since you were a kid, but behaving as an adult, did you seek the safety of other adults in your life?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I think I thought I was an adult. The people that I was on the show with, they were not my age, but they were also a little bit older, where they were like, she's 16. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay away.

[Michelle Williams]

I made some local friends, but again, they weren't my age. And I am very close with Mary Beth Peel, who played my Grams. I felt like it was an ageless relationship. But I don't know if I had met another 16 year old who was at the local high school that I would have been like, what are you doing after school today?

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Michelle Williams]

You know?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Cause you're gonna go home and cook dinner for yourself.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm gonna go make a box of pasta and heat up some tomato sauce.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you lonely there?

[Michelle Williams]

I've never really felt lonely, to be honest, because I had all rambling experiences in nature, and so I was sort of conditioned to that. I didn't feel lonely at all. I had A car. There were three bookstores. There was a record store. I lived near the beach. Maybe I'm just saying that in retrospect, but it was a great place to be young. And then busy joined the show. I don't know how old were we? 18 or something. I can't really remember. But we've been best friends ever since. So that was the end of anything that I might have experienced as loneliness.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

I love parasocially watching the two of your relationship. It's so lovely.

[Michelle Williams]

We're like the odd couple.

[Monica Padman]

It's so sweet.

[Michelle Williams]

We're like, those two things shouldn't go together. And yet they do.

[Monica Padman]

And yet they do. Female friendship is so beautiful. We're talking about it more. It will come up when we talk about your show. But seeing it out in the world is really nice for young girls. Cause there's a lot of competition also amongst girls. And it's good to see these two people are soulmates.

[Michelle Williams]

That's exactly the word that I would use. It's an A not a B storyline. And it's enough to sustain years, decades, a lifetime.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Beautiful. If you can find that. That's what I want for any young.

[Dax Shepard]

I only have three pieces of advice for young men. It's get a best friend, learn to dance and try to learn a few jokes and everything's gonna work out just fine.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm gonna tell my boys. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you can send them to my school. It takes about seven minutes.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm already sending them to bus school. I thought we had an agreement.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they must know how to back up a trailer by the time they're 18. That's another skill. Okay, so during the whole Dawson's Creek experience, you clearly had your mindset on establishing yourself in projects that were tonally kind of opposite. Was there tension between the gratitude for having such a great safe job and then also not being in the things that you were dying to be in?

[Michelle Williams]

No, because there was room for both. I did this movie when I was young. Called me with that shot in the UK and they accommodated it in our work schedule to allow me to go back and forth to do this movie that I was dying to do. It's also not like I was getting a million offers to go do other things. There was enough for me.

[Dax Shepard]

But you were playing a Brit in that movie.

[Michelle Williams]

I did. I think that Dawson's Creek was even nice enough to like let me dye my hair and then wear a wig on their show. So it was allowing for a variety of experiences and then we got that summer break. Cause I think we shot nine months a year. And then you would have the opportunity to go do something else during the summer. If so, something came up.

[Dax Shepard]

The things that you did in that period which were kill Joe Dick. If these walls could talk me without you. Was it hard to get cast and stuff like that, given what you were currently known for? Was that a challenge?

[Michelle Williams]

I would say so.

[Dax Shepard]

Because from the outside it would appear like you're on this thing. But you know, you want a career at some point that's going to be much heavier and that you're going to have to establish yourself as quick as possible before you're just permanently in one type of role. Or was that not happening in your head?

[Michelle Williams]

I didn't really think in the future like that necessarily. I wasn't career focused. I was just finding myself yearning for something, drawn towards it, living in all the desire for it, and then would occasionally have the opportunity to do it and be given these chances. Some of it. I think I got lucky. Like, they didn't even know what Dawson's Creek was. I did a Vim Vendors movie. I couldn't believe that I'd been cast by Vinvenders. I was like, well, this is it. I quit. I'm gonna fold my cards. This hand is too good. And then he saw a picture of me from Dawson's Creek or something and he was like, oh, if I had known, I would not have cast.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's kind of the point I'm circling.

[Michelle Williams]

So I think I probably was up against something externally, but internally it was just a very pure yearning on my part to make contact with other kinds of work and other kinds of human experiences. So much of it is just staying in the game and staying calm and staying patient.

[Dax Shepard]

And then there's a serendipitous end domino effect, which is me without you. AV Kaufman had seen that. Is that true?

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, I don't know. Is that.

[Dax Shepard]

I read that AV Kaufman had seen that and that was what urged her to push for you in Brokeback Mountain.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, wow, then I owe somebody a thank you. I did not know that.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe that's true or maybe it's not true. Half the stuff I read is not true. Oh, Station Agent. That's a big fun movie that you did. In that period at Dawson, did you fall in love with Dinklage the way my. My wife did?

[Michelle Williams]

Everybody does.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a handful of folks and he is definitely at the top of that list.

[Michelle Williams]

A magnetic human being, powerful charisma.

[Dax Shepard]

She is head over heels. If I were to pass in a fiery crash, her first phone call. I don't know if he's wet or not, but I think it would be to him.

[Michelle Williams]

He's wedded and he's childhood.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. Blended family.

[Michelle Williams]

But like we said, friendship can be deep.

[Dax Shepard]

When you're making Brokeback, are you sensing what it is? You don't know about you, but I do some things and I thought they were going to be great and then some things I thought were going to be bad and then they're good. I don't know that I'm a very good barometer. When I'm inside of something, I still.

[Michelle Williams]

Feel like that I'm like, well, who knows? Because an ecstatic experience doesn't always relate to a great thing and a terrible experience. Sometimes you're like, they polished that turd. It's so hard to, when you're in something, really have an idea of how it's going to be received. I would say impossible. And at that point, I hadn't really been in anything either that had enjoyed a reception, so it certainly wasn't on my mind.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you'd get nominated for Academy Award.

[Michelle Williams]

No, that would not. That was not what I was thinking.

[Dax Shepard]

Although one thing can happen. I've never met Ang Lee, but did you sense from him he had a spirit that was special and that somehow that was going to be present in the product for sure.

[Michelle Williams]

I mean, he's such a beautiful artist and has this incredible body of work and the Annie Proulx story that it's based on and then the adaptation, it's undeniable material and so brought together under Ang Lee probably is going to be a good thing. But would anyone see it? It's about gay men, which was not really being done.

[Dax Shepard]

We're in a post broke mountain world where we take for granted that story could be successful, but prior to that, we don't have that.

[Michelle Williams]

That was a first.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I don't know if you're comfortable talking about Heath, but I feel obligated to say that I knew him a little bit when he was getting sober. And I don't know that I've ever fallen in love with someone so, so quickly. This is one of the most special boys I've ever met and I can feel the weight of the world on him in a very special way. That kind of broke my heart. I was very, very sad and I thought he was just so special.

[Michelle Williams]

Special.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Special.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

Thank God there's.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

So special.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. Thank God there's Matilda yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What a guy. I feel very lucky that I, Yeah. Just got. Got to. There's like a handful of people I've met like that in my life where I'm just like, oh, wow, there's something. There's this a heart here that's just leaking out everywhere.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. An incredible sensitivity.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Great taste in motorcycles too. He had a 2006 Sport 1000 yellow. That's what I also drive.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's what you drive. Wow, look at that. But also with Brokeback, all of you guys turned out to be huge stars. And not just stars. The best of the best at as far as acting accolades. And it's fun to me that he obviously could see that in all of you and put this cast together.

[Dax Shepard]

It wasn't an obvious cast you now take for granted. It feels like it was an obvious cast because you've seen the proof that everyone was brilliant. But it's not an obvious cast.

[Michelle Williams]

It's a really beautiful way to look at it. I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

How was the life altering shift of you're going to be at the Academy Awards, was that a natural transition decision?

[Michelle Williams]

No, we had a baby. But I suppose maybe it's a good thing about being young is that you don't have so much life experience that you can contextualize things so you're really just going with the flow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Because I was going to say another theme I see present when I look at your life in its totality and I doubt you reflect back on it in its totality, but you have had many moments where you seem to have an incredibly healthy relationship. Relationship with the job. Because I think having a baby on the heels of an Academy Award nomination, most people are like, okay, get me the list of all the directors I can now work with and it's time to go. And that seems like a very healthy relationship that you were like, no, it's time to have a baby.

[Michelle Williams]

Kids are such great life checkers. They force you to put your best self in front of them. You can't abdicate your life and your work and your own desires. But you do have to your put. Put them in check and figure out which master you're gonna serve. Because the truth is, if work is going well, somebody else is taking care of the kids. And if you're in a high point with your kids, the work is shoved to the side so you can't be equally good at them at the exact same time. And you have to allow for that give and take, but then also replenish the other things. If you Have a big period of being at home. You need to go back to what you've left unattended and put some light over there. So I think it's just this constant back and forth, forth, but making sure that you don't leave one of them unattended for too long.

[Dax Shepard]

This is my main thing I've taken from parenting. Is it right sized? All my other concerns and pursuits in a very helpful way. Ironically, I kind of thought, oh, you have kids. I'll be so distracted, there'll be no time. It's like, oh, no, no. Actually, I will now approach the work with kind of the stakes that it deserves, which is I like to do this and maybe I'm to going good at it, but it's not anymore the most important thing. And there's some liberation in that. I think it's been helpful for me, work wise.

[Michelle Williams]

My best day with my children is better than my best day at work. I am more thrilled with that high than I am with a work high. So I return to that feeling, you know, when am I really, really at my happiest? And it's when I feel like things are going well with my kids. I've got them in a good place and they're feeling underwhelming. Understood.

[Dax Shepard]

And how about just the notion that your best day at work is you accomplish the thing you had hoped to accomplish. Your best day at work isn't when someone else in a scene was their best ever. But weirdly, the joy of the kids is like they do something right. It's not like your best day is because you were your best self. It's just they do something that's so spectacular and you feel so lucky to have witnessed it. It's kind of the opposite.

[Michelle Williams]

I used to say to Matilda, it tastes better to me when you eat it.

[Monica Padman]

Aw, that's so sweet.

[Michelle Williams]

And that's kind of the feeling that I get with them. But again, I want them to see their mom working all of my kids. So it's not something that I want to neglect for too long, but the kids really pull at you more convincingly.

[Monica Padman]

Did you always know you wanted to have kids? Some women, they're five and they're like, I know I'm going to be doing this.

[Michelle Williams]

I think I always just assumed that I would, but I wasn't a natural babysitter or have a lot of dollies. That wasn't my thing. But I just assumed, yeah, I'm going to be a mom. But I really wanted to be like a mom of a teenager. I was like, sure, teenage girl.

[Dax Shepard]

You wanted to go to the mall with a teenage dog?

[Michelle Williams]

I just wanted to do it right. I just wanted to be, like, in there with her and understanding her and taking her side. That's where I wanted to be.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's about the. Yeah, whatever. I could go six hours on kids.

[Michelle Williams]

Same. Can we do, like a sidebar?

[Dax Shepard]

We should do like a kid podcast. Some of this stuff that I think gives people anxiety about having kids is my absolute favorite stuff. Once they have some shit to get into, I'm like, let's party. I've done it all. I've fucked up in every way possible. It's go time. It's so rewarding.

[Michelle Williams]

I similarly learned by parenting. Oh. Actually, when I make mistakes in front of my daughter and own up to them and apologize, it teaches her to make mistakes and say, oopsie, Mommy, I'm sorry. And it's not a big deal. It's a part of life, and we move on. No shame, no blame. Just you made a mistake. Beautiful. I made five already today.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not gonna blame anyone in my parenting circle, but I could not make a mistake. Maybe it was self imposed. If I fucked something up, I would just lie.

[Michelle Williams]

Obviously.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. What else would you say?

[Dax Shepard]

The fact that my kids fuck shit up and then they come tell me and I'm like, oh, my God, this is incredible. There's better than. I was hiding things I broke.

[Michelle Williams]

That's because you thought there was a reason to hide things. Something that you were afraid of.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, again, it's not her fault. But single mom, three kids, it was fucking chaotic. I couldn't put anything on her plate. I just did not want to be another burden in her very burdened life. So I think kind of self imposed.

[Michelle Williams]

But then you corrected it. Now your kids pass that on and it stops with you.

[Dax Shepard]

At least that one part.

[Michelle Williams]

How great.

[Dax Shepard]

I catch myself all the time. Do you do this? This is last night. I catch myself being annoying in the exact same way my mom and dad were annoying to me. I want to play and I'm always petting their hair. I'm pulling their ear, and most of the time they like it. And then a lot of times they look at me and I'm like, oh, my God. I know this so well. This is my dad.

[Michelle Williams]

Like, watch tv.

[Dax Shepard]

Why do you need my attention right now? Just watch tv.

[Michelle Williams]

But it's so hard not to fondle their little tendrils of hair on their head.

[Dax Shepard]

Their little earlobe lobes are. Okay. I have selfish questions when you did synecdy. I can't pronounce it, but synecdy.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, I saw that at the Cannes Film Festival. I saw it. I was there in college. I studied abroad at the Cannes Film Festival and we snuck our way into some of the movies.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you there?

[Monica Padman]

Yep.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I was there.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you get a picture of her?

[Monica Padman]

Probably from very, very far away.

[Dax Shepard]

What is Charlie Kaufman like? I never met him. And I only have adaptation to work off of.

[Michelle Williams]

I wish that I could be the person to answer that question for you and give you the fulfillment and satisfaction. But what is Charlie Kaufman like other than an artist without parallel? But I can't get in there. I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

That's a big one.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to have a dinner with him. And I would be nervous too. Okay. Blue Valentine. I know you already talked about this a lot. This 15, but I'm still fascinated by the notion that you guys were urged to live together for a month before filming.

[Michelle Williams]

We took a break in the filming. We shot the first part when they're young and in love and everything's going really well. And then we took a two week break and we lived together. Office hours, baby. Like nine to five.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Not cohabitating.

[Michelle Williams]

Professional situations. So we did these improvisations during the day, honestly, to figure out ways to annoy each other. Sure, sure, sure. And to destroy this thing that we had made because we weren't even gonna take that break. But we were having such a hard time letting go of the thing that we loved. Derek was like, we gotta mess this up and we need to burn it down. And we did a ceremonial. Burned our wedding photo. And then we learned how to annoy each other.

[Monica Padman]

That movie is so perfect.

[Michelle Williams]

Thanks.

[Dax Shepard]

It is incredible.

[Monica Padman]

So heavy and beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you on your own for these eight hour improv things?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, a lot of it. Derek the director would come and give us a kind of scenario. Yeah. And then we would be left to do it. And then he would say, after you've had this frustrating day, now you're gonna go take your daughter to the amusement park and try and have a good time.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it was fun. I don't know if anybody could work like that again. Cause you've got a crew that's on hold, you're paying people. I mean, it was such a small movie, so low budget and a small crew. But you're taking a big down period in the middle of the thing. And to what end? Playing, you know, exploring. Try and justify that to a producer. But that's what we did you get.

[Monica Padman]

It in the movie?

[Dax Shepard]

That would be a big challenge for me because I just want you to like me, especially if we met two months ago.

[Michelle Williams]

I know, it was horrible. I don't want to give you reasons to hate me.

[Dax Shepard]

Those will come in a couple years.

[Michelle Williams]

Obnoxious. Yeah. We were having such a good time. The party has to be over so soon.

[Dax Shepard]

That's kind of heartbreaking.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it was.

[Dax Shepard]

Was it rough, that second half? Were you feeling the heartbreak of that?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I really was. And I was younger then, and the hard day at work for me now, I feel it and I go through it, but I definitely know that I get to. I can really close the door on it. When I was younger, it would definitely seep under the door.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I can imagine coming home and feeling heartbroken or not liked, maybe.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

My worst fear also.

[Monica Padman]

Such a magnifying glass on your flaws. Did you learn about your own flaws via this?

[Michelle Williams]

I was like, you don't have to hate me now. I hate me because it's annoying. And we are calling forth to all of our worst qualities. And now you can't hate me more than I hate myself.

[Monica Padman]

That's entirely intense.

[Dax Shepard]

Back to Charlie Kaufman. If I had a list, it'd be really hard. But definitely in the top for me would be Eternal Sunshine. Just for the scene at the end when she's like, no, but I'll annoy you, and I'll do this and you'll do that, and I'll hate this. And he goes, yeah, I know, and I still want to. And I was like, oh, my God, it was so heartbreaking.

[Michelle Williams]

Well, it's like the end of Some Like It Hot. And he's like, but I'm this. And I'm this. I'm a man. And he says, well, nobody's perfect.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Yeah, I know. Because when you're young, oh, man. You can get annoyed. And then in retrospect, you're like, what was that?

[Monica Padman]

Well, it's just that there's no one you're going to meet who doesn't annoy you.

[Michelle Williams]

Everyone is annoying when you're young, Michelle.

[Dax Shepard]

If you heard me and you'll hear me when we live in the bus together in the morning, me starting this machine up, sometimes I hear myself. I'm pretty immune to it. I'm clearing my throat and I'm coughing, and sometimes I'll just be at the mirror. And I'm like, my family, what they hear every morning from me and that they still love me is a miracle.

[Michelle Williams]

And actually, it's Not. But it's with that. Actually, that is exactly who they love. It's inclusive of that. It's because of that.

[Dax Shepard]

In spite of it.

[Michelle Williams]

No, not in spite.

[Monica Padman]

It's because these are the human pieces.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. When you love somebody, you have to take the whole pie. And so it's a.

[Dax Shepard]

Because.

[Michelle Williams]

So enjoy your ability and the way that they love you and the. Because they do.

[Dax Shepard]

And they have so much fun making fun of me about it.

[Michelle Williams]

That's the beauty.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, now I already learned that this is not gonna be the case, but it would appear again that you're in a very popular thing. And then you do a bunch of kind of smaller things. Then we go to Oz, the great and powerful. You had not done a big ass movie like that in a long time. Was that seemingly abrupt?

[Michelle Williams]

No, I was dying to do that. I had an 8 year old daughter and I was gonna play Glinda, the good witch. I've cooked up a real steak for us on this one. D. Wait till you come to mommy's job and you go to the costume department and then we put some rhinestones on your face and there's a flying monkey. This is gonna be so fun. And we had the best time. We lived in Detroit and she went to school there. And we had to go to school where?

[Dax Shepard]

What town?

[Michelle Williams]

We were in Birmingham and she went to Roper.

[Monica Padman]

You know about Roper?

[Dax Shepard]

You've heard this story. In fifth grade, a teacher said, he's not dumb, he's really, really smart. There's a school, Roper, that could tend to his needs. You have to take an to get in. I got in. My dad said, no fucking way is he going to school with eggheads. And he pulled the plug on that. So I didn't go. But Roper's the thing I always wanted to go to.

[Michelle Williams]

Should have been you.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Was it special?

[Michelle Williams]

It was a great school. Boy, oh boy. I thought, well, maybe we should just live in Detroit. We're very happy here. We still have friends from that time, people that we're still in touch with. We lived in a neighborhood, we lived in a house. We had a community. I had friends, she had friends. And I was a fairy princess every day. So it was great. And it was directed by the wonderful Sam Raimi, who gave Matilda the best experience. He would let her call action and she would sit in the director's chair and she would come and he would say, there is my most honored guest, Matilda. Make way, everyone. I'm always impressed when people are in circumstances where they have so much going on. They see an opportunity for somebody who needs a little extra, and they go to it, even though they have their hands full. And he did that to day in, day out.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you do any lake business? Did you get on the lakes at all?

[Michelle Williams]

Michigan Lake Life? Yes, we did.

[Dax Shepard]

Isn't it Eden?

[Michelle Williams]

Are we living the wrong life?

[Monica Padman]

Tax is adjusting.

[Dax Shepard]

We're finishing a house right now on a lake in Nashville. Lake life just got our first pontoon boat.

[Michelle Williams]

Man, you guys really figured it out, didn't you?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I don't want to make you jealous.

[Michelle Williams]

You can still be jealous. I saw the bus, and I'm jealous.

[Dax Shepard]

That bus is driving to the lake house in June.

[Michelle Williams]

How long does that take?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we got to stop in Idaho for two days. We sleep in the Walmart parking lot in the bus.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm so happy for you and jealous for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, you're invited.

[Michelle Williams]

I can't even tell you how into this I am. I once, for Thanksgiving, rented an RV in Nevada, drove with Matilda to spend Thanksgiving at the animal shelter where you could sleep with a variety of animals in your room.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my goodness.

[Michelle Williams]

Pigs. Oh, yes, we did. Dogs. Yes, we did. Cats. You could have animal sleepovers. So we did an animal sleepover, animal sanctuary Thanksgiving, and then we went to Zion in our rv. Have you done that park?

[Dax Shepard]

Not in the rv. But yes, I've been to Zion.

[Michelle Williams]

What a place. But I thought I had done enough by renting an rv. I was like, michelle, look at me. I'm driving an rv. No, you need to check clearances. You have to check park entrance and exit time. I hadn't really masterminded the situation and then found corkscrewing down to the bottom of Zion. And our RV wasn't allowed to pass back up for our sunset horseback ride because of a height requirement. I was like, no, this isn't happening.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no.

[Michelle Williams]

I have taken on more than I should have, but I want to get back into the RV life. But I'm a little.

[Dax Shepard]

But, Michelle, it's exactly back to being a K crossing the stream, because numerous times we are in that bus, and I'm getting into a tighter and tighter and tighter situation. And I'll say out loud, I don't know, guys, we may be backing down this mountain, and that thrill of will we get through, it's exhilarating.

[Michelle Williams]

That was me. I love that life. I want that life. And just as a little sidebar tidbit, I think you'll appreciate it. In Covid, we had had a baby, and because of COVID My mother hadn't been able to meet the baby and she decided she was fed up with that. And they had little boat and they sold their little boat and instead they bought a camper, attached it to their pickup, and they drove from Seattle, Washington to upstate New York so that they could meet the baby. Oh, deep Covid. She had packed the freezer with enough food to last for a week. Didn't enter a grocery store, rest stop anything. RV lifed all the way. I know. It's in my blood. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You come by it honestly. Okay. After the Oz and powerful, you do two Broadway shows. You won a Tony for Blackbird.

[Michelle Williams]

Just nominated. You were just nominated. Yeah, I'm sorry to correct that.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you won.

[Michelle Williams]

Thank you.

[Monica Padman]

Premonition maybe. It's coming up.

[Dax Shepard]

You love that. The schedule for me seems very scary.

[Michelle Williams]

It's a terrible schedule. But when your children grow up and they aren't as able to drop into the roper school for half a year and they really need to put roots down you. Oh, like I'm a plane that's been grounded. We have to give her a sense of permanence and structure, dependability. So I need to work from home. And looks like that Broadway is not going anywhere. So is this something that I can learn in enough time to figure out how to do it and make it a part of my life so that I can have the opportunity to work from home?

[Dax Shepard]

That's what drove that decision. And then you were great at that. Fucking asshole.

[Monica Padman]

Well, yeah. Do you think? Okay, earlier, just four minutes ago, you said you'd bit off more than you could chew with your. The rv. Is that a motto?

[Michelle Williams]

Yes, that's me.

[Monica Padman]

I'm feeling this as a through line. You just take on a lot.

[Michelle Williams]

That's me. And I like to do things, figure it out while I'm plummeting. Which I honestly really do relate to that childhood in nature, I really see a direct correlation from that kind of risk taking to the kind of risk taking that I enjoy in my work. Because in my life, I'm not like a thrill person or a roller coaster person or highs kind of person, but I enjoy it in my work, and I think it's because I learned it as a child.

[Dax Shepard]

Is your hack to just commit to it before you actually think you can do it.

[Michelle Williams]

Some things I look at, I'm like, I have no idea. There's no spark. The rest of the time there's a tiny little spark and then a big cloud around it. But it's the spark that I stay connected to. And that's what makes me say, I'll try. But there has to be just this teeny, tiny little mustard seed.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchairs expert, if you dare. Okay, now, my favorite thing you ever did was Manchester by the sea. That is. You like to suffer. That's all I can conclude. It's like you're like, it's been a minute since I suffered.

[Michelle Williams]

No, no. You're skimming over dick. And lots of fun things in there. Lots of laughs.

[Dax Shepard]

Boy, that movie, you already figured out how to not let things seep in at that point.

[Michelle Williams]

That was harder.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You guys are both so heartbreaking and good in movie. Okay. Fosse Verdant. Incredible. Won an Emmy and a Golden Globe. Well done.

[Michelle Williams]

I feel like this is in memoriam or something. I'm like, have I come to the end of the.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you want to hear the funniest two minute story about the Imorium? I've only been to the Oscars one time. We went long ago and I directed a car chase movie with Kristen for a million dollars very few people saw. And I worship Brad Pitt, would do anything to make out with him. And I've gone out to go to the bathroom and I'm coming back and I've never met Brad. At that point, I come up my aisle and I'm walking towards my seat. And as I'm getting close to Kristin, she goes, he's talking to you. I go, what? She goes, brad Pitt is talking to you. And I turn around and he's like three rows ahead, he's standing, and he says, we loved your movie. At that moment, I kind of forget I've even made a movie. And I go, what movie? And he goes, hit and run. We love hit and run. I can't believe this is happening. I sit down, Kristen's like, oh, my God, are you so. I go, I. I can't. I'm smiling so big. And they immediately start the immemorium. I can't stop smiling. I'm the happiest I've been since I got into this business. And Kristen looks at me, she goes, stop. Like, I'm so happy everyone died.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, they cut to you?

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

They could have ended my life if they just cut to me. I am glowing in that moment. And it's. All the people are dying and I'm so happy.

[Michelle Williams]

That's amazing. Thank you so much. And I can't wait to see the movie.

[Monica Padman]

It's like, what's wrong with him?

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta get the B roll from that fucking award show. I would kill for that footage. It's just me. So fucking happy.

[Michelle Williams]

I can see it now.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so again now here's another moment where it appears that you have a really, really impossibly healthy relationship, which is you take a two and a half year break after Fabelman's had another baby.

[Michelle Williams]

That definitely imposes.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you love being pregnant?

[Michelle Williams]

I'm very lucky. I have totally manageable pregnancies.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. Kristin loves it.

[Michelle Williams]

You have another baby.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a vasectomy, if we have one. But I'll raise it with love and understanding.

[Michelle Williams]

I know you would on the bus. I have in the past taken off pretty big chunks of time because when you work 15 hours a day for six months on something, you really need to slow down and recharge and re establish your routines and your life. And then in there, there was Covid and two strikes.

[Dax Shepard]

You picked a good time to take a break.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. I was really thrilled when we had a baby in Covid. That really livened things up. I was like, welcome to the quarantine. You in?

[Dax Shepard]

So, you know, we're not always home all day long, but currently we are.

[Michelle Williams]

For the next year and a half. You're gonna think life works like this.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Do you have the tension? I know Kristen does a bit. I know a lot of working moms do where it's like when you're working a lot, you have some guilt about parenting. And then when you're parenting a lot, you have some guilt about not working.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm starting a job on Sunday and it hurts. I don't know that I would call it guilt necessarily. It hurts me and it feels biologically incorrect that I am going to spend this certain amount of time away from my children. But it feels like the correct model to give them. So it hurts my heart, but my head, I think, understands it. Then when I'm with them, I just try to let them feel my full presence so that when I'm not with them, I can really extract and go do the work that I need to do in the way that I need to do it. It's like a back and forth. It's not how I would like to live. I'm very creature of habit. It's hard for me to jump in and out all the. But that's what I tell myself is how to just kind of manage my feelings around it.

[Dax Shepard]

That sounds like a very good framing of it, which is it's fine to hurt, but the guilt and the judgment's not part of It. That's kind of how guys have gotten it for a long time, which is. No guy feels guilty that he's going to work societally. He's never been asked to feel guilty about that. He should feel proud of that. But you feel sad that you're not with your kids.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it does a few things. For a long time as a single mother, that was how I supported us. So, of course, it's in total, utter necessity. It is how our life runs. And now, being in a marriage, I contribute to my family and to mainly the desires and needs and what I want to put in front of my children. But I also am leaving a record of who I am and who I was and the things that I was interested in. Cause, you know when you're a kid, you look at your parents and you're like, you're my mom.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't have any desires or passions or dreams.

[Monica Padman]

You were born to be my mom. And that's it.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. And I throw a plate on the floor, and you deal with it. You kind of deal with it. So I've often thought about work as a way to leave a record for my children, should they want to pick it up about who I was in my entirety. Mothering is a large piece of the pie, but there are other aspects. What if we don't have enough time to get to know each other more completely? If you want to pick up some artifacts along those. These parts were also me.

[Monica Padman]

I was just listening to Malcolm Gladwell talking about this, but he might have been referencing someone else. He was talking about the passing of his father, and he said, I know him better now than I did when he was alive. Which is such a beautiful thing that you can keep knowing these people in ways you could never have known them when they were your mom or dad.

[Michelle Williams]

This is why I save my journals and all my stuff and just think, you might not be curious about it at all.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Michelle Williams]

You might be like, yeah, no, I had enough of her.

[Dax Shepard]

Think of that all the time. Because I've journaled every single day for the last almost 21 years as a sobriety commitment. Often I'm journaling and I'm not editing for them. And then I think, they will one day have all these and they can read all them. And then I go, never even can open one of them up, I bet.

[Michelle Williams]

I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

I think they will. I would.

[Dax Shepard]

I'd like to read what my dad was feeling like at my exact age.

[Michelle Williams]

I would.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay. Dying for sex in this two and a Half year break. This got to you. Was it a spec at that time or. It was already set up.

[Michelle Williams]

It was a podcast. And then Liz Merryweather had written one script, so there was just a pilot episode in the podcast and the one two punch of them. I was like, oh, there's the spark and the cloud, and now I have to go figure this thing out. But then I got pregnant again, and so it put it on a hiatus. And then after I was through postpartum and breastfeeding fog and all that stuff, I picked up the phone and I was like, did they ever make that show I really wanted to do? Who did that? And they said, no one. And I was like, oh, great. Then Liz and I picked up our conversation again and never stopped.

[Dax Shepard]

I did a show for her for two years. She's a Michigander.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. What a sense of humor.

[Michelle Williams]

My God.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

It is unstoppable. Even at times where it may or may not be, it's rare.

[Dax Shepard]

You're afraid a woman will get canceled? Let's just say that I think that's the best way I can euphemistically say it's very rare to be around a woman. And I'm like, oh, you. Oh, you.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay, I'm gonna go back to Brooklyn and give her that warning.

[Dax Shepard]

You had a lot of brave roles, but this one, there's so much sex in it. There's so much sexuality, girl. And forget the sexuality. I can hook up with people. That's fine. So much masturbation.

[Michelle Williams]

So much.

[Dax Shepard]

We were just discussing this on a different episode where I was like, as liberated as I am sexually when I've been caught jerking off. Not hiding the fact that I jerk off, but getting caught is really humiliating.

[Michelle Williams]

Well, even that you're using the word caught, right?

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

If someone walks in and you're doing it, I'm humiliated. It. So for me, singing and masturbating on camera would be rough.

[Michelle Williams]

I'm going to write you a part where you get to do both at the same time.

[Dax Shepard]

Come around the mountain when she comes.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, look, I did it. I got to do the comedic part.

[Monica Padman]

You're so brave.

[Dax Shepard]

Did that stuff spook you, or do you commit to it and then you're like, I'll just come to terms with that when we start shooting, or. What was that?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I actually think that's a pretty good way to put it. I'm not going to let small fears get in my way because I want the totality of it and if there are some things along the way that make me a little bit uncomfortable, I'm gonna figure out a way through them.

[Monica Padman]

It's kind of the theme of the show.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it really is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So your character has previously had cancer, went into remission, and in the pilot, we learn that your cancer's back, and in fact, it's metastasized, and you have stage four now. This is one of the heartbreaking parts of the show. I love Jay Duplass.

[Michelle Williams]

He's the best.

[Dax Shepard]

He's such a wonderful, wonderful guy. I hated to have to see him be a very annoying husband who I am rooting for you to leave.

[Michelle Williams]

And he's weirdly so good at it. Even though he's the most menshee, wonderful human, he has really studied the other side and come back to stick it to them in the form of this character. You're like, oh, the good guy. You know, the good husband, who really is actually just a friend of your inherent feminine power and ideas and intelligence, but has somehow managed to get along under the guise of good guy. There's so many scenarios in the show and so many different sexual encounters and positions that I've never found myself in working on a TV show before. And so my memories of it are so strong because humor is such a grounding force for a memory. You don't want to remember the thing that's so sad. You want to remember the thing that has humor attached to it. And my recall for certain pieces of work can be so spotty, and this. I can bring it all back in my mind because I was like, oh, that was that wonderful actor that I peed on. I'll never, ever, ever forget him. It's so indelible because they are all firsthand experiences, and they're all with the baseline of Liz's dangerous sense of humor.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what I love. It feels very dangerous, which is my favorite humor.

[Michelle Williams]

I really have to tell Liz to watch out for herself because she's got, like, a whip on her pen or something.

[Dax Shepard]

So your character has not been intimate with her husband for two years, I think we learned in the show, maybe even three.

[Michelle Williams]

She's gone through a diagnosis and breast reconstruction and a huge medical process, and she desires connection, pleasure, and satisfaction, even with her husband. And he's no longer able to see her as a sexual being. She's a patient for him, and even.

[Dax Shepard]

Worse, maybe like a Munchausen Y, a source of confirming his identity as the good guy.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, the caretaker. And then she gets a terminal diagnosis in the Midst of all of this, which is just a lightning bolt, and she cleaves her life down the center and splinters it off and gets in this little boat, and off she goes, and she grabs her best friend and she's like, we're moving away from here and we're gonna go into uncharted territory and let's do it together.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I'm not gonna die alone, but I'm gonna die with my best friend, Nikki.

[Michelle Williams]

It's a podcast.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you listen to.

[Michelle Williams]

I listened to the podcast twice, and it just unraveled me. I. I was so overwhelmed with emotion, which is kind of an unusual experience. I don't want to cry. I don't really want to feel you're.

[Dax Shepard]

Satiated in that department.

[Michelle Williams]

Work wise, a little work wise, personal, I can take it on, but I can more deal with it in my head or abstract suffering. That is something that now get processed through my brain instead of my heart. And this show was like an arrow in me, and I couldn't understand how it had bypassed all these defenses that I thought I had put up, gotten behind the wall. I think it was her bravery to live her as she lived her life, which is to make it her own and to really open it up and look at death and look at how to stay creative inside of it, how to not become a fixed identity cancer patient. Once something so catastrophic happens to you, to fight for other aspects, to stay in that room, to be a whole.

[Dax Shepard]

Person, you had to have another storyline going other than dying.

[Michelle Williams]

Yes. Even though you know that it's happening, which is really the storyline of all of our lives. The storyline of our life is dying. It's just a timeline issue, but we are able to kind of protect and pretend that it's far enough away that we don't need to deal with it or really even know what it is, what happens, what it looks like, what it feels like, and how you can be in charge of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. How did it work? I stopped working in the era of intimacy coordinators. This one, probably why he stopped.

[Michelle Williams]

You didn't want somebody telling me what you couldn't do.

[Monica Padman]

Hold on, I'm out.

[Dax Shepard]

Had you worked with them before?

[Michelle Williams]

No, I'd always just put on two pairs of pantyhose. You know what I mean?

[Monica Padman]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

I always just gave the famous Jack Nicholson line. I'm sure you've heard it. Sorry if I get erect and sorry if I don't. Oh, God. Neither is good.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

70S.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. Yeah, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Could you imagine if that was said to you?

[Monica Padman]

Really? No response to that?

[Michelle Williams]

No, no. The times, they are changing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

I really en. I wasn't sure how I was gonna feel, because I definitely don't like to be told what to do. I like to do my own thing. Just don't like things in my way. I like to have my space. And it truly was much more like the experience of having a choreographer who's really helping you and not school marming you, who's really helping you to create a convincing simulation of something. Also to make sure, you know, if you get into this business, there's probably something wrong with you. I mean, it's the circus. You don't run away and join the circus if you're not running away from something. So I think that that means that performers bring with them a rich personal history, and I applaud this move forward. Maybe you don't need an intimacy coordinator, but you don't know what your costar has been through. You don't know what your scene partner is dealing with. And this allows them the safety and dignity of being able to just tell one person what they can and cannot do and keep their job. So I'm all for it.

[Dax Shepard]

That part's fantastic. I guess what scares me is you're already trying to do something that can't be choreographed in life, and you're trying to do it in this really crazy situation, which there's cameras, there's 15 people in the room. So already, for me, I'm fighting against the mechanization of this thing you're hoping to capture. I agree with everything you're saying, and I hope that. That I've always been really responsible and kind, and I've always just chatted with people beforehand. But I just fear this layer of, okay, now this whole thing has already been talked about, decided how on earth will this look? Natural and fluid.

[Michelle Williams]

I think, though, it can be adjusted and it can change. But there's one person who knows the safe word. Like, you might go to the intimacy coordinator and say, I want to fuck. Well, you might go to the intimacy court and say that. But, you know, you might say, nothing's off limits for me. I am completely comfortable, and I have nothing that you need to know about. And so there's no work around there. They're not like, well, you're not allowed to do that. It's just like, if somebody else has boundaries, something that they don't want to show, something they don't want to touch, the intimacy coordinator protects that without it being obvious to the rest of the Crew. Nope. So and so just won't do that. They have a personal history. But the truly great thing about it, though, is because you are simulating someone, you have to sell it for that lens. I might be doing what I think, but it's not translating because of where the camera is. So it's not selling that this thing is actually happening. And one of the things I thought was so valuable with intimacy coordinator is she could help you sell it to a Frank. Jay and I both know that I'm giving him a blowjob. We're fine with that. And we know what that might look like and what that might ask each of us to do, but we don't know how to simulate a blowjob.

[Monica Padman]

Totally.

[Michelle Williams]

How do you not make it look like you're bobbing for apples? How do you create the proper tension? And now this is a. That's been around for a while. When intimacy coordinators first came on the scene, you're like, you were a PA yesterday.

[Monica Padman]

Like, what do you mean?

[Michelle Williams]

You're the intimacy. It's like the COVID officers, too. You're a Covid safety officer. Based on what?

[Dax Shepard]

Cause you had the Purell.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, right. So they were these kind of made up jobs to meet a moment. But now these jobs have become really fulfilled and filled by skilled, qualified people. And we really relied on her expertise.

[Dax Shepard]

It's incredible. I'm blown away with your performance. I want to tell you one Sunday intimacy coordinator. But. But it's one sex scene story of mine. I was doing something where it got to the point where the lawyer's talking about what can be shown. I'm not shy at all. My deepest insecurity, though, is that anyone would see my butthole. I don't want anyone to see my butthole. And I'll show you everything else. Zero self consciousness. And I get into the scene. We're walking. Okay, you're gonna be on top of her. And I go, and where's the camera? And I see it's on the floor looking up at the bed. And I'm on top. And it's gonna see my feet beat first. And I'm like, they're definitely gonna see my. I know cameras work. And I'm like, oh, my God, they're gonna see my. We do a take. It's a long take. And then I lay down for take two. I'm certain the whole crew just saw my butthole. And the director comes in and he takes the sheet and he moves it up just to cover my asshole. And I'm like, okay, that's confirmation. The entire gang just saw my butthole.

[Monica Padman]

See, the intimacy coordinator would have known.

[Dax Shepard]

I might have been like, hold on.

[Monica Padman]

I think we might just need to bring the camera up just a bit.

[Michelle Williams]

So hard, too. Because you know that that monitor is going out. There's taps all over set. There's dailies.

[Dax Shepard]

Some editors like studio. We have butthole here.

[Monica Padman]

Cut.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, but I just felt this sheep. He pushed up between.

[Michelle Williams]

Confirmation of your worst fear.

[Dax Shepard]

Truly, I've learned throughout my life, I've been delusionally unaware that I'm six two, that I'm one. Then I'm all these things. And so when the crew sees my butthole, I'm not in danger. There's nothing to be that afraid of for me. And so it is a completely different dynamic. Like, I can laugh about that, but it's a different scenario that for years, I didn't really even take time to consider.

[Michelle Williams]

I always feel like the worst thing that can happen to you on a set is that you're going to be embarrassed. Embarrassment. We can live with that. The stakes aren't as high as they are in real life. Look, the stakes are high because you want to do a good job and you want to get another job, and you want to continue to have a livelihood, but embarrassment we can live with.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The last thing I want to say about the sexuality in the show is what occurred to me midway through was, oh, this is distinctly female. I've grown up watching tons of different sex scenes in different movies, and they have almost been exclusively written by men or directed by men. And there was something very unique and tangible about this whole journey that felt definitive.

[Michelle Williams]

Thank you. That's what we were going for. We were like, is there such a thing? Because the camera is the male gaze, and is it even possible to make a camera a female gaze? So that was definitely something that was on our mind while we were making the show.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you accomplished it. It's a completely different version of this tale than I've ever seen. That was the defining thing, is that it was clearly all women making this.

[Michelle Williams]

And the defining dangerous genius of Liz Meriwether. Yes. Because you know, when you're making a show like this, the scripts keep coming. You sign onto a show, but you don't have all eight episodes. You don't know what the heck's gonna happen. You've got one episode, and you're kind of crossing your fingers. She just hits them out of the park. Script after script, we're shooting. She's Showrunning and writing and editing all these things that go into the title Showrunner. And then delivering these scripts.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Unbelievable.

[Dax Shepard]

It's crazy to me, where the comedy is, is this intersection between your fantasy and reality. I feel like that's constantly explored one after another. You have an idea of what's gonna be great. And then where the rubber meets the road. There's just so much comedy I've thought.

[Michelle Williams]

About what is gallows humor. It's not really laughing at something or making a joke because something is sad. The humor is ever present. It's just the ability and the desire to locate it. To say, I want to attach laughter to this experience. Cause you could just look through the whole thing darkly. You could just say, ugh, this didn't go the way I wanted it to. This didn't go the way I wanted it to. And I'm dying of cancer. And the real life Molly in the pilot, she has this totally innocent bemusement about the situations that she would find herself in. And also a complete lack of judgment about what people wanted to do and what their bodies craved and how she was a part of that and how it made her own body feel.

[Dax Shepard]

She was this observer, like an anthropologist.

[Michelle Williams]

And also, I don't wanna use the word angel. Cause she's like a very real person. But she was looking for the best version of things and. And sitting in a neutral space about bodies. Even when she's talking about her cancer treatments and what's happening to her body and how her body is failing and all of the secretions that a body can make and that they're happening in tandem. And sickness is something that is being done to your body. And your body is acting against your own will. And that sexuality is something where you can have strong ideas. You can sort of both be in control and out of control, influenced by. And then learning more about yourself in the process of it. And that these two kind of bodily experiences, both full of feeling and surprises and smells, she found a way to hold both experiences right until the very end. She was in hospice and she was still looking for ways to appreciate and love her own body. She really loved putting on, like, beautiful lingerie. She would take a picture and she would send a sexy selfie. And some guy would be like, oh, that. That was amazing. Thank you. She refused to deny herself any pleasure in the midst of all this pain.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know if this is intentional or this is what my projection is. It seems that she entered the experience with the curiosity of a novel experience, which is like What I would hope I could accomplish in that time. Let's explore this new thing.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. Because how do you know what you want until you try it? If you've been conditioned to believe that a certain kind of sexuality is accepted. Okay, normal. How do you even know what's out there? And how do you know if you like it or don't like it or.

[Monica Padman]

If it's for you what's inherently bad or good about a specific sexual activity? People are like, that's bad or kinky or that's in this bucket. But what makes that bucket that bucket?

[Michelle Williams]

Patriarchy. But things that we've inherited make that bucket that bucket. I hope that the generational turnover is going to drain that bucket into the bucket of, first of all, normal, acceptable, great, pleasurable, and also personal. Yes, it belongs to you. I remember I asked Nikki, I was like, what did people say when Molly found out that she had stage four and she was dying, and then told everybody that she was going on this sexual journey, did that open her up to any judgment? Were people like, oh, my God, you're never gonna believe what Molly is doing. She's like, nobody did. And I was like, that's great. Well, she's got amazing friends then. Because there wasn't chatter about it. But I think we're worried what people would think or what people would say.

[Dax Shepard]

Or there's some notion of what you're supposed to do at the end of your life.

[Michelle Williams]

Yes. The right way to do it. Her refusal of that and also her desire to control it, to know what it was and to say when enough was enough. Childbirth and death are like these portals, but they're so medicalized. But that in each experience, you have the ability to say, I've experienced enough pain and my body is done with that aspect of this. But to know the timelines of things. We know, oh, when your water breaks, you'll probably go into labor in 36 hours. But death just isn't a part of our conversation. We don't know the bodily function of it and we don't see it.

[Dax Shepard]

For me, that was the greatest source of anxiety, both with my dad and my stepdad, which is what's the timeline you're trying to prep yourself for? How long is this experience? How often do I visit? That unknown is so powerful, it almost overrides the actual thing itself. My dad was a blessing because it was small cell carcinoma. So it's like, it'll be dead in three months. Do it all. That was great. In retrospect, my stepdad Was like two and a half, three years of prostate cancer. So it's like, when do you plan the trip? When is it too late for this? It's really hard to come up with that game plan when you actually don't know what amount of time you're dealing with.

[Michelle Williams]

Right. And also the hope that, what if there's more? And the treatment cycles that a person has to go through. I haven't been with somebody at the end of their life. That's not something that I know intimately. But I know that the influence information is so powerful to have hospice care. You can have a death doula in the same way that you used to have a birth doula, but somebody who really supports you and walks you through and helps you do it on your own terms, and it helps you understand end of life care. I know somebody actually who have switched from being a birth doula to being a death doula. That place is so information rich. There's so much encoded stuff about really how to live and to be witness and. And to give that person the experience that they want in their body.

[Dax Shepard]

I think we are starting to look at it correctly. There seems to be a movement like Atul Gawande, where it's like, don't just look for longevity. The goals shouldn't necessarily be 11 months instead of nine months. It should be, what do we want to do? That's like a bigger question and maybe more important than are we gonna try to get 11 or 9.

[Monica Padman]

Squeeze every day out that we can.

[Dax Shepard]

Measure it a little differently or evaluate it differently.

[Monica Padman]

Also, the irony of we're so obsessed with the timeline of death. We don't know about any of us. We can just go through life as if. Well, that's far away. But our timeline could be any minute.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, well, it's great. I just want to call out one scene that's incredible. When you talk about this dark and dangerous sense of humor. The fact that you break your leg kicking Rob Delaney in the dick. What a swing. Good job.

[Michelle Williams]

What a swing is, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

I had a very small target to hit. You know what I mean?

[Dax Shepard]

You're expecting one hilarious moment, and then this other thing happens. You're like, holy fuck, this is a train wreck.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. They were like, no, no, it's safe. He's wearing a cup. Just swing as hard as you can and just hit the cup. I was like, you really trust me.

[Dax Shepard]

To do this again? Back to the poking someone in the eyes. It's hard enough to just kick and make sure you hit that and then.

[Michelle Williams]

Act at the same time. Okay. It's just gonna be, like, hitting a.

[Dax Shepard]

Mark and then Jenny's fucking great. Jenny Slade is so great in it as Nikki. It's fantastic. I hope everyone watches it. This has been a delight. You're invited on a bus ride whenever you'd like. You could even behind in a smaller motorhome, and you're like, well, if he's gonna make it, I'll make it in this size one.

[Michelle Williams]

We have a minivan, which I pretend is a motorhome. I treat it like a motorhome. We've got survival. Yeah. We got all the, like, snacks. Yeah. We got all the stuff. It's my starter motorhome.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, your escape pod.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, it really is. Damn. I just want to be on that bus. Do you ever podcast from the bus? Do you ever go, like, on the road?

[Dax Shepard]

I do fact checks from it. I'll probably do some this summer. You figured it all out, but you're a delight. Most powerful smile in real life.

[Monica Padman]

We've been wanting to have you on for. For years and years and years, so we feel very lucky.

[Dax Shepard]

And thanks for trusting us. I know this isn't necessarily your cup of tea. It feels flattering.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It feels like a gift you gave us.

[Michelle Williams]

You guys. I hope I've lived up to the seat on the couch. Can I do a podcast where I interview you guys? Because it's so weird to have so much attention on oneself and your whole life. You don't take a trip down memory road and look at your life very often.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not a good thing to do. Really.

[Monica Padman]

Little indulgence.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So you can come here and get.

[Michelle Williams]

It out next time. I'm going to make you guys walk through. I want to open up your roads anytime.

[Dax Shepard]

All right. Adore you. Good luck with everything. Thanks for coming.

[Michelle Williams]

Thanks for having me.

[Dax Shepard]

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

[Monica Padman]

Do you smell something?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Michelle Williams]

Why?

[Dax Shepard]

Do you smell.

[Monica Padman]

Apartment smells.

[Dax Shepard]

What's happening differently here?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, interesting. What do you think it is? There is something different.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know.

[Michelle Williams]

You like it?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You look great, but I don't know if you just like you were at a film, you were at a photo shoot beforehand.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no. Good job, Rob. Got it.

[Dax Shepard]

What'd he say?

[Monica Padman]

Eye makeup.

[Dax Shepard]

Is that what it is? It's the lower eyeshadow.

[Monica Padman]

I'm wearing eyeliner.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a dingles.

[Monica Padman]

Really good job, Rob.

[Dax Shepard]

I was looking Specifically at the Darkness there and wondering, is that all that's happening? Okay, but major dingles. Cause last night I hosted Charlie and I tried to do old movie night for his kids and my kids. And then Charlie's so much younger than me. He hasn't seen a lot of classics.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

He hadn't seen Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Neither have I.

[Dax Shepard]

Last night was Pirates of the Caribbean, the original. We were watching it, and Captain Jack Sparrow is so fantastic. Stick in it. And he looks so sexy with.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, eyeliner.

[Dax Shepard]

It's more than that. It's like smudged all the way down. And I said out loud to Charlie, I'm like, God, I wish that was a more acceptable look for guys. I would love to have that look.

[Monica Padman]

Why don't you try it? I think we should try it first. With brown eyeliner on you. I think black is going to look really. Let's work our way up.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. We'll go in steps. But I definitely have had it for Wednesday.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That's fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay, now walk me through why now eyeliner at this late stage?

[Monica Padman]

I posted a picture of my mom and I on Mother's Day.

[Dax Shepard]

Uhhuh.

[Monica Padman]

Did you see it?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Monica Padman]

Rob, do you want to put it up?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Okay, great. I gave Rob something else to put up too. This is going to be very visual heavy.

[Monica Padman]

You better go to that YouTube.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I guess people. I read a lot of people went to see the haircut, which delighted me, of course. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

My mom is wearing eye makeup. She's wearing under eye makeup in it or whatever. She's wearing eyeliner.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I. And I was like, oh, it looks so nice. And I used to wear it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I decided to.

[Dax Shepard]

When did it stop?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, well, also the majority, I would say, like 99.99% of the comments on that picture.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Are about how I look exactly like her.

[Dax Shepard]

Interesting.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I take it as a major compliment.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you wearing eyeliner, baby Monica in this photo? Okay. Look at the size of your eyeballs relative. That's like Vinny. You got a similar ratio.

[Monica Padman]

Impossible dream to look like Vinny.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Your head is only like 3x your eyeball size, which is unique.

[Monica Padman]

But her eyes are very big, too.

[Dax Shepard]

They're huge and banging.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah. And so anyway, big eggs.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a way. That's how you can tell someone has big eggs.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. The size of their eyes.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

They're correlated.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, so she is wearing eyeliner if you can see under her eyes. And I thought it Looked really pretty and so I wanted to bring it back.

[Dax Shepard]

I think she looks like Alana Glazer too.

[Monica Padman]

What? That feels. That feels. It feels left field to me, but it does.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, she looks so cute.

[Monica Padman]

She does look so cute. My dad.

[Dax Shepard]

Like a little guy. Like a little boy. She got a little boy.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, nobody wants to hear that. God, your compliments have gotten so bad.

[Dax Shepard]

I have some photos of me I'll share with me carrying. You know, I carried a purse for like two years, so I'll get you some of those and you can go, oh, what a beautiful little girl.

[Monica Padman]

I'm not gonna. Okay, okay. I wouldn't say that. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyway, anyways, very cute pick.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, so that's what the. The eyeliner is about.

[Dax Shepard]

Because you saw your mom in it and you're like, well, why aren't.

[Monica Padman]

I thought it looks pretty. And since we look the same, I was like, oh, yeah, I should start doing that again.

[Dax Shepard]

Right?

[Monica Padman]

Okay, I have a few things to talk about.

[Dax Shepard]

I know we're in this situation where you. I know you have a story for the last two days, but we were waiting for the fact check.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which I guess is. I guess that's not a complaint. That's fun. I have something to look forward to.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But it is crazy to know you. You're like, oh, I. Oh, you know what? I'll just wait. And then I'm like, oh, God, wow. I can't hear the anticipation. Just. Also, it's so foreign for someone to say, I have this great thing and you have plenty of time. And then you go, but I'm not gonna tell you for two minutes.

[Monica Padman]

And you just sit in silence and don't say it. Yeah, okay.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

You went back to Atlanta. Is it involving?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. But Ro, before I get into my story, I just wanted to remind if people have missed the Mo episode because they didn't know who he was. High recommend to go back and listen to that. It's a really good episode. Kate Mara voice messaged me today.

[Dax Shepard]

She did?

[Monica Padman]

Uh huh. And she.

[Dax Shepard]

I just saw her in friendship.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I'm dying to see it. I want to see it this weekend. Is it great?

[Dax Shepard]

It's great. It's crazy. I mean it. Really. Do you see it, Rob?

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I went to the Vista and.

[Dax Shepard]

Saw it, by the way. Go to the Vista.

[Monica Padman]

That's what she said.

[Dax Shepard]

We went on a Saturday. I saw Sam Richardson.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, fun.

[Dax Shepard]

I actually felt like, oh my God, I live in a neighborhood with a Neighborhood theater. And I actually know people. People like. It was a very heartwarming experience. And the Visa was sold out on a Saturday afternoon.

[Michelle Williams]

That's awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

And Tarantino did a awesome job with, like, the popcorn stand. Everything's retro, so it's like the old.

[Monica Padman]

Did you go to Pam's Coffee?

[Dax Shepard]

Nope, just to the movie. But the popcorn, Nathan's hot dogs, the way the signage is, is very nostalgic. It's. It's awesome.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's a. It's an insane movie. And. And it really. It tests how much you can fuck with the historic role of a protagonist, like in Aristotle's Laws of Story. Because this. It's Tim.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Tim Robinson.

[Dax Shepard]

Tim Robinson. And he's being very Tim Robinson. He's going berserk. And you kind of want everyone in his life to just get rid of him because he's. But he's your hero. So it's like this, right, Rob?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

He's insane. Yeah. And some of the biggest laughs in a theater that I've heard.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I cannot wait. I can't wait to see it.

[Dax Shepard]

And. And Paul Rudd is just, what, a champion for taking that role and leaning into all of his Paul Rudness in a great way.

[Michelle Williams]

I love him.

[Dax Shepard]

Love him.

[Monica Padman]

Kate messaged me that she listened. She was listening to the Mo episode and that she loved it and that it was really beautiful. And she hadn't. She didn't know him before, and now she's going to watch the show.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Most of the comments are people saying I wasn't aware of them. This is one of my favorite episodes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Great. So check it out if you haven't seen that or listen to that. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Or seen it. You can say that now.

[Monica Padman]

Or Cena. Or listened. Another thing before my story.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Two things.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. So much foreplay. Ding, ding, ding. Easter egg.

[Monica Padman]

Easter egg. Easter egg spurt.

[Dax Shepard]

Egg spurt expert.

[Monica Padman]

That's what I said. Easter eggspert.

[Dax Shepard]

Easter Eggspert. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

But wait, why is Easter in there?

[Monica Padman]

Because it's an Easter egg.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, right.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Easter egg spurt. Now that's perfect. It just took me a while to compute.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. This morning, I was on Instagram and I saw Mandy Moore had, like, she posted something, and it was when she was young, and it reminded me of the Hunked episode where she destroyed my house. Yes. And I had to watch it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It got in my head, and it was on YouTube. Yes. And I watched it this morning, and it Is so funny. It is so funny.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the only one I ever broke in. I think I told you that.

[Monica Padman]

When? When did you break?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think I was prepared for the level of devastation that occurred. They dropped this fucking steel. I beam on this mobile home, and it flattens it like a panc. And I'm watching it, looking at it, and the camera's. And then I have to turn and act like I'm, like, emotional and I am laugh. I'm like. I'm, like, worried I'm not gonna be able to because, you know, I love when stuff breaks. Like when a car drives through a window or something. That's my specific trigger. Yeah. And I had to turn around for a minute and, like, regroup. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Is that when you said, I have to go see what the damage is?

[Dax Shepard]

No, I think I had. I think I had gotten it together by then.

[Monica Padman]

It's.

[Dax Shepard]

What an insane bit that was.

[Monica Padman]

It's fun for me to see you before I knew you.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, tell me how.

[Michelle Williams]

God.

[Monica Padman]

I guess this might sound like one of your compliments.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, great.

[Monica Padman]

One of your horrible compliments. Because I know you so well.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I think sometimes I forget the obvious things about you.

[Dax Shepard]

Like.

[Monica Padman]

Like when I'm watching it, I was like, God, he's so funny.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. Thank you. That's a great compliment. I didn't see that coming.

[Monica Padman]

But I know that about you. Obvious, funny every day.

[Dax Shepard]

But you forget, like, I'm a. I was a comedian at one point.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know. I was. I was just like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, Dax is so funny.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, but thank you.

[Monica Padman]

Really good.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me stop there, because that's great. I could float on that. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I want to. And, like, same. If I watch Parenthood, I'm like, oh, yeah, he's so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, thank you.

[Monica Padman]

But then when we're here, and I'm like, you know, annoyed by you because you're doing.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I'm your brother and your father.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. Then it's like a weird dissonance. I kind of don't think of that person as the person I know as.

[Dax Shepard]

Again. I have a couple friendships where I juggle both things. I juggle what I feel about them on screen and then the reality of them in person as a friend.

[Monica Padman]

Right. But even now, if I see you on screen now, every time, ever since I've known you, it's all.

[Dax Shepard]

There's no magic. Right. It's like, just disillusioned.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, I could still see objectively, like, oh, that's funny. Or, oh, that's good. But. But I'm not. It's not the same.

[Dax Shepard]

I totally get it.

[Monica Padman]

It's weird.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I can imagine. Even if I turned in a performance that was funnier than Frito or the grocery store movie, I did whatever that was called. Employ of the Month.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which, for my money, I think is the best I ever did. If I did something that was like, we could measure. It was the same. It just wouldn't tickle you because, I mean, you sit on the couch with me.

[Monica Padman]

I think it would tick. I would have different feelings about.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

I would have more like, oh, like, my. My friend did a good job feeling.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

As opposed to, like, just blind. Like, oh, that's so funny.

[Dax Shepard]

You can click into me being a stranger, basically. Yes, yes, yes, yes. That makes sense.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And then. And I always have this weird, like, you know, it ended, and I was like, I can't believe that's him. Like, I can't believe I know that person the way I do. Life is weird.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Because I watched Punk'd.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. But that was a completely different life ago, Right?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Yes. It's so strange.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Life is strange.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It feels like a different life ago. Even, like, what I do now. It's almost as if I am now a roofer. And I used to be a car mechanic. Like, there's something.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You changed industries sort of.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, definitely in that, like, the goals are so different.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

The goals on Punk were like, be as funny as is reality will permit and find the line and try. Try your hardest to be right there.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And that was just such a specific mindset. And then that's not what the mindset is in here for now. Which is crazy. You know, we're going on. Well, we've already passed my longest job ever.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And there'll be a point where, you know, I'll have done this as long as I acted, which is a crazy thought to me.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And this is. Does that make you feel good or bad? Or does it matter?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, good in that. Oh, fun. I got to experience so many things.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Bad in that. Well, this last 10 years was much quicker than the formative 10 years. Right. Like politics punk'd to, like, two 2003 to 2013. Punk to end of parenthood is, to me, feels very long.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

This show feels like we've been doing for three years.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And that part's alarming.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But I did have a dream last night that I was acting in something. Yeah. It's kind of like my relapse dreams. Did I tell you? My relapse dreams are always the same. I'm. I'm like, I'm out of town and I'm drinking a few beers and I realize, I remember, oh, I always drink a few beers when I'm out of town, and it always works. And then when I wake up, I literally have to go. Like, you never drank in a few years when you're out of town. No, I haven't. And then similarly, last night, I was like, taking a role. And we still have this, so it was like I was having to juggle both things. But then I had been doing that for a long time.

[Michelle Williams]

Weird.

[Monica Padman]

Life is curvy and swervy.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. It's got curves and swerves.

[Monica Padman]

And I wonder, I don't know, who knows how long we'll be doing this.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? Unknowable.

[Monica Padman]

Unknowable. But I think what's weird for me is sometimes I wonder, like, this potentially is your acting. Like this is my first.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, of course.

[Monica Padman]

You know, and there might be. For me, not likely there will be another thing after this.

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly. So imagine fast forward 12 years to my age and you've now been doing something longer than you ever did. The podcast.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know it's.

[Dax Shepard]

But it feels like a third of the time, it's just very confusing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, weird. Anyway, it was really funny. If you want to check that out, it's on YouTube. While you're on YouTube, go ahead and head over to the Armchair Expert.

[Dax Shepard]

Subscribe. We've never asked anyone to subscribe. I've always been really adverse to asking that.

[Monica Padman]

But go ahead and subscribe.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, go fucking subscribe. Even if you're never gonna watch, you.

[Monica Padman]

Should watch it another. Okay. I guess I've just been taking in a lot of you on accident.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, so sorry.

[Monica Padman]

Because, well, I've been down a Malcolm Gladwell rabbit hole.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Just for fun. Because I remembered how great the show is.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. After I listened to the Joe Rogan one and then the RFK one, I was like, fuck, this show's so good. I forgot. And I thought, oh, I'm sure I've missed a lot of these episodes, so I should go back back and look at some. And he did a bunch before Revenge of the Tipping Point or during that time we had him on for that show. So I don't think I was paying much attention to revisionist history then. But I was like, oh, I'll. I'll check this out. And there's one. I just have to really, really commend him. And actually one's a ding, ding, ding. Because it's about him basically. Basically saying, there's a section in the Tipping Point about the broken windows theory, which comes up in an upcoming episode for us, which is funny. Yeah. And he. He comes on and he says, I was wrong about that. He straight up says, I was wrong. This is why. And it is so interesting to hear someone just come out and be like, this thing that got a ton of traction action for him.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Is wrong because it extended into stop and frisk.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But it now, looking at it over time, crime went down. Went down after Stop and Frisk was taken away. And all these people, Giuliani, Trump, are used, and they use the phrase. Right. They use broken windows.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And he's like, it didn't. That's not why. But they use it as a scare tactic. He said, I believed it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And now I know it's not true. And it was. It was really funny, you know, he plays this clip from Giuliani and then he plays a clip of Trump saying it. And he said. He says, sometimes I stay up at 3am and I think, oh, God, did he read the Tipping Point too? And everyone read it, and that's such a weird thing to think. Like, you wrote something that everyone read and was persuaded by the pressure. That's a lot of pressure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And again, you can't really consider that when you're writing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you can't. But it's just wild. Anyway, so then he has a couple episodes on the Varsity Blues. The. The kids who. The parents who paid for their kids to go to Ivy League universities. And you are in those episodes.

[Dax Shepard]

I am, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

You're a voice actor.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, when they get to the.

[Monica Padman]

The trials.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, shit. Yeah, I did. Wow, that's funny. I never listened here. I never listened to that. Me and Britt Martley.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Funny because I. I listened to when we redid the Little Mermaid, but I didn't listen to that. That's crazy.

[Monica Padman]

Really, it was so weird because I just like listening to these episodes. And all of a sudden he's like. And to play, blah, blah, blah, these, you know, lawyers. He's like my voice actors, Brit Marling and Dax Shepard. And I was like, oh, my God, what is going on?

[Dax Shepard]

Infiltration.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, full infiltration.

[Dax Shepard]

And then you go into your bathroom. I go, hi.

[Monica Padman]

You talk to me through my speaker. Anyway, so that was great.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll try to keep it coming. I'll try to do some more.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

More surprises. I Gotta get on a makeup tutorial. I get to get on a fashion podcast.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you do.

[Dax Shepard]

I gotta get on Elizabeth and Andy.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. Okay, now I have a story.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I was home to visit my mom for Mother's Day, and I heard the craziest story. And I was like, maybe I shouldn't bring it up. Cause it's, like, kind of. It is sort of political, but it's wild, and I feel like I have to share it. My friend's sister lives in pretty rural Georgia, and she is a kid in preschool because the public schools really aren't very good. What's like the PC term for that? Whatever. They're underperforming. Yeah, I guess. So she sends her kid to a private school in rural Georgia, and it's Pre K through 12.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

So for some. I don't know if it was Halloween or something, they threw this, like, big assembly event, and each grade had to dress up as a theme. So the pre K was like, you know, superheroes and princesses, whatever. Yeah, standard theme. And then one of the themes for like a youngish grade look. To look to me like third grade. I saw pictures of this was her hurricane Helene. That was the theme.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, interesting.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which is like, what do you play? Wind Broken house.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. So some people were like, the hurricane God, that's a.

[Dax Shepard]

They got what?

[Monica Padman]

One girl was a FEMA check.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Huh.

[Dax Shepard]

And I mean, that's on story.

[Monica Padman]

But why do her kids Kane Helene? I mean.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Why? Oh, because. Well, if they were in northeast Georgia, I know that Asheville is very close to there. And it got submerged underwater.

[Monica Padman]

It ravaged Augusta.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Which. But that's also why it's weird. Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Like, if we did the fires.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly, exactly like it. It impacted that area.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, one more chance at generosity here.

[Monica Padman]

Go ahead.

[Dax Shepard]

Remember saying the time 100, like, first 40 are so easy. Oh, yeah. That person who dodgeable this, that actor, the last 15, you're like, he had a great golf swing. You know, you don't even.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

So 12. 12 grade. Maybe they just got to third grade last. And they're like, we have. We have used every category.

[Monica Padman]

Well, you haven't heard the knockout. Okay, there's another grade. The theme was the Trump assassination. And this is.

[Dax Shepard]

This.

[Monica Padman]

This is real.

[Dax Shepard]

This is almost impossible to believe.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

And yeah, forget politics. Just like the assassination of anybody I know. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And all these boys are dressed up as, like, Secret Service. And then there's one boy dressed up as Trump. Trump. And he has this, the full mat. He's, like, wearing A mask, a Trump mask and like, you know, his ears all bandaged up. And, and, and then there's like, you know, kids, kids fifth grade ish looking kids in MAGA hats. And it was really, it was like, oh, yeah. And also what My friend, my friend, she was like, this is how it happens. Like if you have any questions about like how if you're like, you know, living in California and you're like, I just don't get it. This is how it starts so young.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Monica Padman]

Like, isn't that wild?

[Dax Shepard]

It's wild. And I don't know why. This is my compulsion. I don't want you to be mad.

[Monica Padman]

At me and I know I don't want to get mad at you and I don't want it in its finest bitter compulsion. But I would. I mean, these. My friends who are also like my friends who were shocked by this.

[Dax Shepard]

Right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. They're. They're Georgia people. They're not like, they're not what you.

[Dax Shepard]

Would say, coastal city elites.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. And they're like, there's no way that's real.

[Dax Shepard]

So I think that's very extreme.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think it's bonkers.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And they are in rural Georgia hearing about a real case here in LA where a child identified as a cat and they put a litter box in the bathroom.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So I only say that to just say if we focus. Focus on the, the, the crazy ones, like they're on both sides and neither are really that representative. No.

[Monica Padman]

1. No school here is doing dress up like a be it pretend you're a cat day.

[Dax Shepard]

No, but they're putting a litter box in the bathroom. That, that's, that's truly craziness.

[Monica Padman]

That's. I mean, look, that's one story you heard, right? Like that's not a sweeping thing. This person is our president.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

He was elected.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I'm only talking about the school's decision. Well, I'm hoping.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That that's as rare is the litter box in the bathroom. That's what that's All I'm saying is I'm just. My optimistic self is hoping that that is rare.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know. I mean, it's a private school.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. So here's what I would hate is someone. Here's the litter box story. Right. They're in Georgia. You know, these fucking California school. And I just go like, well, hey, just. My school isn't like that at all. It's public.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And.

[Monica Padman]

But that is part of why like a public school doesn't isn't able to do things like that.

[Dax Shepard]

That. That crazy.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And. And then I was thinking, like, if I had my. If I lived there.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

What would I do? These are the options. A very underperforming public school school or this, like. Yeah, this is a bad situation for people decisions.

[Dax Shepard]

You'd probably have to live somewhere different, which is like the Sedaris thing is like, yeah. If you're gay in a small town.

[Monica Padman]

Go to the city, you might not have the money. Like, I mean, there's just a lot of factors here that make it for me. Like, I understand this is hard.

[Dax Shepard]

You can live low income in all states.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. You could be up in Oregon or eastern Washington. There's like, there's equivalencies in liberal states. If that was your desire, was the parent. They were like, what the fuck? And what goods. What did their kid have to dress.

[Monica Padman]

Like Superman or something?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay, great.

[Monica Padman]

Thank God. But that's what I was like, now this kid is in a hor. Like, let's say this kid was of age of one of these horrible themes, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And his mom, my friend's sister, is like, no, you're probably not going to dress up as a FEMA chick. You know, Know, then he might be like, well, I'll be an outcat. Like, this is so the pressure. Yes. It's upsetting.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. It is. It is.

[Monica Padman]

Because I.

[Dax Shepard]

And an opportunity, like my mom would say to me, what do you think of. What do you think of all these kids calling each other fags on the playground? What do you think it's like to be gay and hear that?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you think it's, you know, like, my school's all Christian and we didn't go to church on Sunday. And other people that you know, like, well, what do you. It's also not bad to be an outcast.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And to be. It's a character builder. And if your parents are engaging you on it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Then that's an opportunity.

[Monica Padman]

Guess you're right.

[Michelle Williams]

It's just hard.

[Monica Padman]

It's hard to be an outcast. It's really hard. I went to church with my friends.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Because, you know.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I say one thing? It's actually weirdly related to your story.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Rob, will you put up the thing I sent you? I just stumbled upon this. This is Quirky Maps, I guess is the source. I follow a few different infograph accounts on Instagram and they're so fun. Now this is a countrywide breakdown of largest employers by state.

[Monica Padman]

Huh. Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

And what's undeniable about this map is you can quite clearly see the states where Walmart's the number one employer is almost universally a red state. And then lo and behold, the states where the university's the number one employer, which is several. They're all without exception, also blue. They vote blue.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's interesting of all. Of all the employers really there's just three categories. Really four. There's either you work for Walmart, you work for a healthcare, like a hospital system or a university system. And there are only two that are like manufacturing. Michigan, General Motors is the largest employer and then Boeing in Washington. But I just thought this was a very informative interest. Like in Colorado the largest employer is the Denver. Denver International Airport.

[Michelle Williams]

That's really wild.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, like MGM resorts make sense in Nevada, but just all these university systems. That's pretty fascinating.

[Monica Padman]

Well, but North Carolina is the university.

[Dax Shepard]

System and North Carolina is.

[Monica Padman]

It's purple.

[Dax Shepard]

It is far more liberal than the surrounding states.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it does make sense for like your bread and butter. Right. Like people are pretty loyal. Loyal to their bread and butter.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Ours is kind of a fast.

[Monica Padman]

Is the university system.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Or.

[Dax Shepard]

Or uc, I guess the UC system.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

New York is the university. It's like you talk about the elites and the coastal. It's like. Oh yeah, that's. Well there's.

[Monica Padman]

Huh.

[Dax Shepard]

Pretty obvious reason.

[Monica Padman]

A lot of it's health care.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. 16. So 21 states. The largest employer is Walmart. 16 states. The health. Healthcare is the largest, eight for education and five for others of which there's.

[Monica Padman]

Really no 21 states. Walmart is the largest employer. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Michelle Williams]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyways, I guess find quirky maps. I liked that.

[Monica Padman]

That's cool. I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Facts.

[Monica Padman]

We're going to transition into facts now.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. Stay tuned for more Armed Chair expert if you dare.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Michelle, Facts. Larry Mantle.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh great. He deserves this.

[Monica Padman]

He is a man.

[Dax Shepard]

Toll.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Larry Mantle is an American radio talk show host and journalist on the Southern California California NPR station. Laist Laist. Laist Mantle, Host Air Talk with Larry Mantle, which is the longest running daily talk show currently on Los Angeles radio.

[Dax Shepard]

Air Talk. That's the show Kristen's obsessed with.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Yeah, there's a picture of him we have up here. He's 66, he was born here in LA.

[Dax Shepard]

He has a great origin story, I want to say. Like he applied it NPR and he didn't get it. And then he went to another station, he started and he was so good Then they brought him in. There's some kind of fun.

[Monica Padman]

Let me read you.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you know, let me just shave the sides.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, go ahead. Impulse control issues. They say it's part adhd. I got a little bit, but that's okay.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay. While in graduate school, Mantle was living in Pasadena and listened to NPR's All Things Considered on KPCC. He knew that KPCC also produced a daily one hour local news program and used community volunteers and Pasadena City College students to supplement a small professional staff. Mantle started volunteering at KPCC and was soon anchoring newscasts and providing play by play of college and high sports club carried by the station. Later, Mantle became the first local morning edition host for KPCC. After briefly working for CBS News Talk affiliate KPI memberside, Mantle returned to KPCC as news director in 1983. Two years later, he launched Air Talk with the intention of combining listener calls from an analytic and news savvy audience with local experts and newsmakers. Huh. That's all it seems says.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It doesn't say that he struggled.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Sounds like a rocket ship, right. Of success because of his enormous talent.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's true. He has a son.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a long time. Did you say 1983?

[Monica Padman]

He returned as the news director for KPCC in 1983. Two years later. So 85.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So 40 year anniversary for him.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. That's cool, dude.

[Dax Shepard]

Congrats.

[Monica Padman]

Very big congrats. Okay. She said it was a tough day for npr. That was Friday. A couple Fridays ago. I guess he had. The day before, Trump had issued an executive order directing the corporation for pbs. Well, Public Broadcasting's board of directors. Deceased. Federal funding for NPR and pbs.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So let me just say. I hate this. This is. Is ridiculous. But I will say I was a little comforted when I read not pbs, that I think that one's really largely federally funded. But NPR is only getting. I want to say the number I read was like 2% from federal funding. So I am a little relieved that potentially they can survive that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Hopefully.

[Dax Shepard]

Much of a ridiculous hopefully. People, what do we spend money. The shit we spend money on. Let's trim out all the stuff that's. That's so low impact.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Doesn't move the needle at all. And we lose all of our favorite things from the public funding.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know. And we also.

[Dax Shepard]

Sesame street and every. You know.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And it's, it's making sure that media stays divisive and private. And that's like the opposite of what we need right now.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean I, I do my best to give the argument a fair shot. Right. There are many left leaning media outlets and there's right leaning media outlets. PBS is not like when they have the election and they do a two hour thing on Hillary and they do a two hour thing on Trump. They are equally hard hitting.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know but I was trying.

[Dax Shepard]

To think is NPR left leaning? Maybe.

[Monica Padman]

But is it left leaning because people on the left are listening. Like that's not a fair assessment of.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess though his, his point would be if, if all of Americans are funding it and half of Americans are conservative and half are liberal, it's not fair that the output is leaning left. That's fit. That's a fair critique. Now cut it entirely or try to correct that is two different arguments.

[Monica Padman]

But is it left leaning because it's telling the truth? There's some truths that are happening right now that a lot of that maybe Republicans would say are left leaning. But they're, they're, they're the truth.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I, I more mean like if they're gonna do KCRW is gonna do a story on unhoused, is it going to be the, the liberal version of unhoused or is it going to be the conservative version? And I do think mo probably more often it is the liberal point.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know. I don't know about what they.

[Dax Shepard]

I know I listen to NPR and I like it. So I'm inclined to think it probably is a bit more left. I guess that's my gut intuition about it.

[Monica Padman]

But again is it what you're attracted to is that it's, it's true facts being told.

[Dax Shepard]

Well like I'm pro game marriage. So when that was all being talked about, everything I'm hearing on there is the experts talking about the reality of that situation. But I'm pro that that union right there's not, they're not going to give 30 minutes to a Christian saying that God said says this is wrong. They're not going to do that on npr. But your, your argument might be that that shouldn't, you're right. And that shouldn't get 30 minutes on, on NPR. But I guess if it is federally funded and, and it has to be reflective of all the people that are paying for it, then maybe it does. I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

My guess is. Or I get yeah, maybe I just don't know. But I assume they do cover both sides. Like I think the daily often you hear the, the other point of views you hear. They will interview people who are on both sides so you, you can hear what everyone is thinking.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, now the Daily. I don't know if you listen to it, but I really encourage you to listen to it is this. These, these two professors at Princeton wrote a book which is. They have analyzed now for four years the COVID response. And they take all this. World Health Organization had just done a study on social distancing from. For an airborne viral congestive virus and they concluded it does, it doesn't work. It has no impact. And so their point is, and these are liberal Princeton professors, they're like, where was the New York Times saying what about this article? Like, we did a. The left did a bad job of being, pushing hard and pressure testing the things we were being told. And there's now a lot of evidence of that.

[Monica Padman]

But you can't do, do it until you're in it and after.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no, because this report that had been funded by the who. It existed. It existed. Anyone who wanted to look would have found that they just ran this study and that it was recommended that that wouldn't work. What pandemic on a airborne virus but.

[Monica Padman]

That affected this level. It couldn't have.

[Dax Shepard]

You'll hear them. I want to get them on. I think when you hear it, you'll be very convinced as I, I was like, oh, wow. Normally we would have heard this counter argument to what was being proposed. It's how the fourth estate works. And what these two professors are saying is like, there was an institutional breakdown and we need to, we need to come to terms with that and we need to prevent that from happening again. And one of the people that now, the Daily's brave enough to now run it in 2025. But the Daily would have never, never touched that who study during the pandemic, which they did. They just should have. They really should have. And we'll have the experts on. And I think you'll agree, and there were many. It got so politicized, the whole event. And I'm not defending the right, the right stance was ridiculous on it. Right. But there was a big breakdown. And you have to ask then why? And I think part of the explanation, as do these people, is like every journalistic output became so politicized. They're either left or right. We need, we need pbs, we need npr, we need ones that are not servicing the market.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And you know, that's what I said.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, that had just happened the day before. So that's why she said that. Now Leonardo DiCaprio and his T. Rex.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, right. It's good. Good. We need a good reminder of what's going on here.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It says he doesn't own a T. Rex. He has an interest in dinosaur fossils and has purchased several, including a Mosasauruc skull and an Allosaurus skull. But he is not known to own a complete T. Rex skeleton or fossil, according to many sources.

[Dax Shepard]

Damn it. Why did we. Where. Why am I perpetuating that?

[Michelle Williams]

I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

We want it to be true. I'm sure he wants it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I hope he's not offended. Like, if anything, I could get wrong about him.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The fact that I think he's got a really cool T. Rex skeleton belt and I hope doesn't offend him.

[Monica Padman]

I hope not either.

[Dax Shepard]

I'd sure love to interview him.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. The apex. She mentioned the apex. That's. I guess the new dinosaur discovered. The Stegosaurus dinosaur fossil that is considered one of the largest and most complete of its species ever found. It was discovered in Colorado, and it's at the American Natural History.

[Dax Shepard]

Look at that.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. That's so cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Those plates are enormous on the back.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they are.

[Dax Shepard]

That's virtually what I was looking at installing on top of our gates.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We're always just trying to replicate what nature already figured out.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Ooh. Imagine getting spiked with one of those.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But it's so clever because they get attacked from behind.

[Monica Padman]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

Good luck.

[Michelle Williams]

Good luck.

[Monica Padman]

It's so hard for my brain to integrate that that's real. That those things really walked this earth.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And, like, what will be here? What will be here in a billion years?

[Michelle Williams]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Now, Malcolm said on this episode of Revisionist History, the Joe Rogan one that we talked about, he. He said about his dad in the interview he did with Michael Gervais. He said something very sweet about understanding his dad more in death than now. And I wanted to find that clip.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll go back to not. To. Not to participate in that spirit. Well, I'm getting a little emotional. I'm in danger when I talk about my father. I start crying.

[Monica Padman]

So.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What is that about? I don't know. He was. I'm sorry. God, I love him. I'd encourage you to open it wide open. There I was on stage in front of hundreds of people, perfectly happy. Then my dad came up, and all of a sudden, I became overwhelmed, and I was embarrassed. It wasn't what I intended. I wasn't there to bare my soul. Didn't I just say 10 seconds before. The Gladwells are not emotional people. I want to move on, but Gervais won't let me. So off we go in and an entirely new direction. I mean, I do cry every time he's been. He's been gone five years. And a friend of mine said. Two friends of mine said two very beautiful things that I've always remembered. One was a friend of mine who was writing something about his. His father. And he said, my father died 20 years ago today. I know him better today than I did back then. And I think about that nearly every day. And I.

[Monica Padman]

So sweet. So sweet.

[Dax Shepard]

It is so sweet. You know, hearing that make. Makes something for me make so much more sense. Sense, which is Malcolm one time randomly sent me a text that said I stumbled upon the thing you wrote about your dad.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I didn't know you were such a great writer.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Just made me, like, sore.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I thought, how on earth did he stumble upon that? But it's interesting because he's talking about a friend who wrote about his father who's dead, and this definitely happened within the time that his dad had died. And it's conceivable that, like, he was on the surge reading that stuff.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Sweet, sweet mouth.

[Dax Shepard]

God, hearing him like that is so endearing.

[Monica Padman]

It really is. Oh, we love him.

[Dax Shepard]

He's so special.

[Monica Padman]

Really love him so much. But that is such a beautiful sentiment that you can keep knowing people past.

[Dax Shepard]

Their in that the grieving is how you keep someone alive is also.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, sweet. That's it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's it. All right. Love you.

[Monica Padman]

Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wonry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.