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A
Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dax Shepard and I'm joined by the Duchess of Deluge.
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B
Hi.
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A
Hi.
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B
Hey.
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A
Do you feel more sinister when you're taking the moniker?
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B
No, I feel responsible.
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A
Oh, you do?
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B
I feel the weight of royalty on my shoulders.
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A
Oh, it does. Heavy bears the crown.
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B
That's right. Heavy's the head that wears the crown.
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A
Heavy's the head. Nancy Siegel is an evolutionary psychologist and a behavioral geneticist. But most importantly, long time coming. She specializes in studying twins, Mary Kate and Ashley types. I feel like twins is almost tied with sim for us as much as we talk about as much as we've needed an expert but didn't have one.
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B
For a long time. True.
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A
I mean, this is long overdue. She has several incredible books on the topic. Entwined Lives Born Together, Reared Apart, Accidental Brothers, Deliberately Divided. So this one is awesome.
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B
As we all know, twins is really the only way we can learn about human behavior.
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A
Well, and especially if they're ideally if they're separated.
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B
So we get to learn a lot.
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A
But yes, it's incredible. I'm so glad we got to talk to Nancy. So please enjoy. Nancy Siegel. We are supported by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to check your tent for holes first before discovering you're sharing it with every mosquito in the campground. Like you know to check your hiking boots still fit first before getting blisters halfway up the mountain. Like you know to check your picnic basket for utensils first before having to eat potato salad with your hands. Checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate Firing Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by Squarespace. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to create a professional website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place. Our website functions beautifully, so seamless, like a Swiss made timepiece. And it was all designed on Squarespace by Wabi Wob. And it was easy. The cutting edge design tools on Squarespace are a game changer. With Blueprint AI, their AI enhanced website builder, you can create a fully custom site in just a few steps, it generates premium content and personalized design recommendations based on your brand and goals. Plus, their intuitive drag and drop editor makes it easy to fine tune everything to your liking. But Squarespace isn't just about looks. Their integrated SEO tools help you get discovered faster online. Every Squarespace site is optimized with meta descriptions, an auto generated sitemap, and more, so you show up more often in search results and attract your ideal customers. Ready to claim your corner of the Internet? Go to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com and promo code DAX to get started today.
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B
He's an object expert. He's an object exper.
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A
Were you offered all the many beverages?
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C
I just wanted water, but I was offered everything. Oh, good. I don't take sparkling cuz I'll burp during the talk. I love that. And coffee. I don't do well with caffeine, so.
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A
You don't?
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C
No, I don't.
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A
Okay, already. We're in your research, weirdly.
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C
Oh, we are?
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A
Yes. Because I'm a humongous consumer of caffeine and I was delighted when I took a 23andMe test to see it. Say you're someone who would like caffeine more, and I felt the absolution of guilt.
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C
Yeah, well, I don't know if that would actually absolve you, but at least it would help you understand.
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B
There we go.
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A
Yeah, I suppose if you have a genetic marker for road rage, it doesn't get you out of your responsibility.
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C
No, it doesn't. But keep in mind that genes just predispose, they don't determine.
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A
Yes, yes, yes.
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C
Very important.
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A
Can we start in Boston?
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C
Yeah.
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A
Place of your birth.
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C
Yeah, yeah.
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A
What kind of child did you have in Boston?
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C
I was born in the Boston lying in hospital and I was born six weeks early. You know, I'm a twin and I have a fraternal twin sister and I nudged my way out first.
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A
You did?
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C
Yeah, naturally. And I was only 3lbs 11oz and she was 4lbs 7. We moved to New York City when I was 5 to a building with lots and lots of friends. We lived near the school.
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A
What did mom and dad do?
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C
My dad was a lawyer and my mom didn't go past high school. But she was a very bright lady and she worked as a dental hygienist once we got into junior high school already.
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A
You mentioned something and I'M curious, does any pattern emerge between fraternal and or identical from arriving first? Is there anything predictable about what baby comes out first?
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C
The only thing predictable about when baby comes first is that the firstborn twin, if it's a natural delivery, is in much better physical shape because of the way the uterus contracts. The second born twin is more likely to have some sort of difficulty, even demise, higher mortality because they're in there longer. It's not so much that they're there longer, it's the process of being delivered.
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A
Right, so I guess I meant being delivered longer.
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B
The first one has already caused chaos.
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C
The delivery changes the uterus, you know, because human females are not built to have two babies or three or four, they're built to have one. And so when you put two in there, that complicates matters.
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A
So they generally are the healthier of the two.
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C
There's a lot of circumstances that can affect that, but basically the first one has a better chance. But my sister was actually the healthier twin. She went home after two days in the incubator. I took up a residence of a month and I mean it was really kind of nice. I had my own room and I.
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A
Was spoon fed the last bit of single attention you'd ever get.
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C
Yeah, I know.
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A
So with the healthier start, do they tend to have 1% better educational achievement, income, any of those downriver things?
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C
Not with twins raised together. But you do see that with twins raised apart, which I've studied for many, many years. Yeah, and sometimes you do see that the twin who's adopted by the better off family has more educational resources, better healthcare. But the question also becomes, does that make a difference in how they turn out? My feeling from studying lots and lots of twins is that as long as they're raised in middle class homes with enough resources, parental attention, care, all that sort of thing, your genes will predispose you to a certain group of people, places, events, things that are compatible with who you are. As a great example, we studied a pair of British twins. One raised in a very educationally active family and one raised in a family where education was not a high priority. But the second twin loved to read, got herself a library card. And when the twins met at the age of, I think 34 at the University of Minnesota, they had the same IQs, they read the same books by the same authors, they met at the University of Minnesota as part of the Minnesota Study of Twins Race department. Roger Extreme environments though, if twins are separated, can overwhelm genetic potential, as I know from my studies of these switch at birth Colombian twins. I'm in my office one day, I get an email from this woman who's Colombian, but a social worker at Columbia University. And she tells me, I've heard of your work. Do you know that in Columbia now there was a set of identical twins born in one place and identical twins born in another place and somehow they exchanged places. I knew right away I was going to Bogota because this was a case that I have never heard of before.
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A
Unparalleled potential. Here with what you study.
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C
Not only was the two sets of twins switched apart, but it was a pair of unrelated of the same age that I call virtual twins because they give you a pure sense of environmental influence, because they're same home but different genes. But one pair was raised in the lively rich city of Bogota and the other raised in this very rural area called La Paz. Do not confuse with La Paz, Bolivia. This is La Paz, Colombia. It's the middle of nowhere. I went to visit them there. We took a car from Bogota to Velez. Then from Velez you take a four wheel drive to someplace else and then you put on a pair of boots and you walk for an hour. I had a choice of hiking or riding a horse. I'm thinking, which is less dangerous? Probably the mud. So I mean, there's nothing. Then all of a sudden there's a house with three different sides on it. And I see our lunch being cooked outside. How would you like a freshly slaughtered cow on sticks? So that's what we had for lunch. But the whole process of this study was fascinating. And I have a book that came out in 2018 called Accidental Brothers, where I document not only the research findings, but also just the impressions I had. It was absolutely amazing to see the similarities and the differences. But when I say that extreme environments, because the guys up in the country didn't go past the fifth grade, whereas the guys in the city went to college.
- [09:27]
A
Yes.
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C
And had advanced certificates.
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A
And the guys in the country had a lot more physical activity. I guess they did.
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C
And in fact, that reminds me, we did a fascinating study on them, on their vision. And it turns out that the guys in the city had much poorer vision than the guys in the country. And people thought it was, well, because they're reading computers and all that. It wasn't that. It was that the guys in the country were out in the fresh air, no artificial lights, no sunglasses. But what was interesting was. So usually when I see twins raised apart, the rid apart. Twins do very similarly in ability tests. These Guys did more like the unrelated brother they were raised with because it was an extreme environment where the two guys in the country simply didn't have the education.
- [10:06]
A
Yes. Let me ask you this. Were the unrelated twins closer to one another on all these tests than they're identical twin?
- [10:13]
C
Yes, they were. And see, for someone like me, a fraternal twin, who I can see genetics all over the place, and someone who has studied twins raised apart, the findings initially shock me, but it's good for me because I'm very genetically predisposed to genetic explanations. And so to see something where the environment of an extreme nature overwhelmed was just a good lesson and it gives me much more appreciation for environmental experiences.
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A
Yeah, it's been interesting. The period of time that you've studied this, the goal keeps kind of flip flopping as new scientific advances come. So I think we should start at the beginning. From Freud till twin studies, almost the main consensus among psychologists was we are a product of our nurture, that all of our behaviors can be kind of explained by how we were brought up and how we were nurtured. And your studies start to poke at that.
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C
It wasn't just our studies that started poking. There were pokes before that. And in my book Born Together, Reared Apart, I talk all about this and how these developments sort of led to the perfect time and place for the University of Minnesota twin study.
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A
Was that the first?
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C
It was actually the fourth or fifth RIR to park twin study. There's a whole legacy of these things, but it's the best one. Yeah, the biggest one, for a lot of reasons. But there began to be some advances in medicine. For example, they were able to link certain conditions like phenylketonuria to genes.
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A
What's phenylketonoria?
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C
Phenalketinuria is a recessive condition where a child is unable to convert phenylalanine into tyrosine, which you need for normal metabolism. And so there's a built up phenylalanine in the brain and that can cause mental retardation.
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A
Okay.
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C
It can be treated if you just give them a phenylalanine free diet.
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B
Wow. Oh man.
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A
How heartbreaking to learn that after the fact.
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C
Probably, yeah. But now we're able to treat this. So at any rate, people began to see differences between different breeds of dogs, different mouse strains. You could train an animal, for example, to avoid noxious noises when you paired it with food, but when you paired it with something else, it wouldn't work. So people began to see the constraints on the environment. It Just wasn't a full explanation. Then there was a case study of rear to par twins done by Paul Popenot in, I think, the 1920s. And these twins, Bessie and Jessie, they were so much alike despite their separate rearing. So all along there was these developments where people were just realizing environment does not explain everything. And genetics absolutely plays a role. But resistance to genetics came about because of the Holocaust. The Germans trying to make value judgments among different types of groups based on their different genetics. And also then there was the women's movement of the 60s in civil rights. And so discrimination or value judgments on different groups of people was not something that you welcomed. And then there was a lot of rejection of sex differences, too. But what I tell my students is, and I use the quote from this very famous evolutionary biologist, Theodosius Jabtansky, that differences are not deficits. Differences are just differences. And if you attach a value judgment to them, well, it's not appropriate. Now, we know, for example, that males tend to do better in visual spatial activities, females in verbal. So maybe if I'm lost in a cave, I might value visual spatialization a little more. Or if I need someone to help me in a difficult law case where you have to do a choreographic dance of verbal gymnastics, maybe I'd prefer a female. But in general, you can say, and depending upon circumstances, certain talents are gonna be more valuable. But at any rate. So twin studies began to gain popularity after, of course, Josef Mengele. He was a German doctor who came to Auschwitz Birkenau, the concentration camp in Poland. He gathered twins and dwarfs and anybody with a medical condition, and he exploited them for his own purposes. He was fascinated with twins. I actually went in 1985 with the remaining Holocaust twins to their 40th anniversary reunion. And I have a wonderful little annotated collection of photographs I took there that I published about two years ago. So Josef Mengele gave twin research a really, really bad name. And so it kind of stalled for a while, but made a comeback in about the 1980s. Once people began to realize that you needed genes to explain certain things that you couldn't explain otherwise. Then people began to get a little more receptive. Now, there still was rejection and criticism for many, many, many years. Again, what I always tell people is, you can study, you can read, you can learn, you can make yourself better. But we're not gonna have everybody being the same.
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A
No.
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C
And we need the talents of different people in order to survive as a population.
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A
Our variation is our strength.
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C
Exactly. So I was a graduate student at The University of Chicago, always interested in twin studies. And I'm gonna tell you now how I got into twin studies.
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A
And then let's also talk about evolutionary psychology.
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C
We will. So just briefly, how I got into this and how I made it just the most glorious, fun career of my lifetime. The only career. So I was an undergraduate at Boston University. I was a psych major. I liked psychology. No topic set me on fire till I was a senior. And I was in abnormal psychology class. And my professor said that we had to write a personal essay on. On some aspect of development. So I decided to write about separating twins in school. And I found that I loved doing that. I loved the literature. I loved everything about it. And that was it. I was hooked. That was my field forever and ever and ever. I was always interested in twin studies. I was working on a twin study for my doctoral thesis. And then in 1981, Professor Bouchard organized this Minnesota study of twins raised apart, which was launched by a pair of twins called the Jim twins. Jim Lewis and Jim Springer in Ohio.
- [15:50]
A
Isn't that great? They're both Jim. They don't have the same last name. Yeah, they're the Jim Jim. They're both named Jim.
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B
Cause they were separated.
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C
They were separated, and they were each named Jim by their adoptive families. Whoa. And so they met when they were 39. And they were so similar in so many ways. They both bit their fingernails to the nub. They both had light blue Chevrolets. They both were woodworkers. They Both worked in McDonald's. I mean, you could name a million things about them.
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A
But the craziest is they both married Linda first divorced, married Betty, and then married Betty.
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C
And then one of them divorced Betty and married Sandy. And so I imagine the other Betty was pretty nervous, especially as Sandy came around.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The odds of all that are so incalculable. Because even if they both want the same thing, the notion that they would both meet a Betty.
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B
Find it.
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A
Yes.
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C
Well, the beauty of rir to park twins is that they give you new hypotheses about why things happen. You can say the Betty and the Sandy and the Linda and all that were completely coincidental. Maybe there's something about the name that attracts them. I don't know. I wrote a paper about what people call coincidence. I don't think it's coincidence. I think that there are better scientific explanations for why twins have these similarities. And, you know, we all have our own habits, ways of doing things. I think it's a function of who we Are in large part. How do you explain two identical twins raised apart who never met till their 40s? And they both washed their hands before and after using the bathroom. Fear of germs, this need to be clean. Another pair of twins we met, they met at 25. They both used Brill cream. I mean, who didn't in those days, right? But they both used a very rare brand of Swedish toothpaste called Vadimakum. Now that's impressive. Yeah, who cares?
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A
First of all, it's impressive. You remember the name of the toothpaste. Let's just add that. Vaddy bacum.
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C
Vaddi bakem. I said it so many times. Why would they do this? So let's think about why. Maybe they like the unusual name, makes them different than other people. Maybe something about the taste. Maybe they have affiliations with Sweden. They like the Swedish culture. I think the toothpaste was not made with fluoride, so maybe that's what they wanted. But it gives you all these different ways of thinking about things. So a common occurrence doesn't interest me, but a rare one does?
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A
Yes.
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C
A rare one does, yes. And that's where I think the genes make a difference. We had these twins who liked coffee warm but not hot.
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A
There was a pair that liked their coffee cold.
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C
And why is that? Maybe they're afraid of burning their tongue or they like the sensation. But see, this gives us ways of thinking about things. And rather than just saying, oh, it's chance or oh, it's random.
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A
Yeah. Okay. So I think most people understand evolutionary biology. They understand Darwinism to a degree. In general, when we were studying evolution, we were thinking of mostly how we developed as this species. Not so much emphasis put on our psychology. How does evolutionary psychology emerge and what is it attempting to answer?
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C
So with evolutionary psychology, basically, when you think about the evolution of the mind, you think about complex problems that we as a species had to solve if we were going to survive. And so those people who figured out the solutions and would pass them on and the people who would adopt them are the ones who would survive, and the ones who didn't, would not. So let's think about, for example, fear of snakes. That's a very easy explanation and example I can give you. People are afraid of snakes, even if they've never had any exposure to a snake. But the people who were afraid of snakes way back were the ones who survived.
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A
They didn't get bit by snakes.
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C
That's right. They're the ones who survived. So they passed on these genetically based potentials to their ancestors, which is why we're afraid of snakes now, even if we've never even seen them.
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B
That is interesting. People who aren't afraid of snakes. Could we say that maybe they come from a line that wasn't exposed to many snakes to begin with?
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C
It's possible. Or maybe these are more risk taking behaviors. There is such a thing to be said about risk.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Sometimes the risk you have great benefits.
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A
It's part of mate selection. Quite often it's a mechanism within evolution. Yeah, you have big loud feathers that attract predators. That's disadvantage in the wild, but it's a big advantage in mating.
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B
And I'm scared of snakes and I'm not thinking like, well, snakes are in India.
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A
Oh, big time.
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C
This gives you a new way of thinking about why you are the way that you are.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Okay, so quickly, for anyone who's confused on fraternal versus identical, Fraternal twins are two different eggs and two different sperms that get fertilized. And then you're a person and you have the same genetic similarities as you would a normal sibling. It's not increased at all because you were in the womb at the same time.
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C
No. Fraternal twins do tend to be somewhat more alike on average than ordinary siblings. And why? Because they're the same age, so they're part of the same quote unquote generation. But identical twins result when a single fertilized egg divides within the first 14 days after conception. And these twins share all their genes. Now, having said that, there are exceptions because there can be mutations along the way. But nevertheless, despite these, and despite the fact that being in a womb for identical twins actually is more conducive to differences and similarities because they can develop these mutual circulation systems where one literally bleeds into the other.
- [21:03]
A
Oh, wow.
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C
So while people say, oh, sharing a womb makes you alike, it doesn't. It makes you more different. So to me, the fact that identical twins are as alike as they are is pretty amazing, given that there are all these factors that are trying to make them different and they're not exactly alike. Whenever we look at twins, we find differences between them, but they're still overwhelmingly more alike than fraternal twins or any other pair of people.
- [21:27]
A
When did kinship genetic theory come out?
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C
That was with Hamilton in the 70s. Kinship Genetic theory is that we are predisposed to be more altruistic towards individuals with whom we perceive as having genes in common with us. So that means that you would be predisposed to be nicer, say, to a mother than to an aunt or to an identical twin than a fraternal twin or to a cousin versus someone unrelated. Although with cousins, you don't share a high proportion of genes with them, so it's hard to know who a cousin is. Now, Hamilton extended this further to a concept called inclusive fitness. And inclusive fitness is that it pays for me to be kind to you because you share my genes. So I'm getting my genes out in the population through you, but I also get my genes out through me, for any child I create.
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A
This gets into Richard Dawkins and selfish gene theory that really genes are evolving, not the species.
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C
So it pays for me to be reproductively active, but I get a boost if I get my genes out through you.
- [22:31]
A
Yes, but you do have to then think about. It's not just the survival of the individual animal, it's the survival of the genes. That's what you're seeing. It's misleading a little bit.
- [22:40]
C
Of course, none of this goes on at the conscious level. I don't think to myself, well, my sister and I are fraternal, so I won't be so nice to her. If I'm identical, I'd be nicer. This just does not go on at the conscious level. But what it does is, I think it's maintained at what we call the proximate level, which is the here and now, whereas ultimate refers to genes at the proximal level. It makes me feel happy to do good things for my sister, makes me happy to do good things for my parents. It gives me pleasure. And I think that that is what maintains this kind of differential treatment of different relatives.
- [23:14]
A
How does the concept of in groups are more empathetic to themselves than they are to outgroups, and if you look the same, it's easier for you to empathize with another person. What about when you're identical? It seems like there would also be a very natural extension of the self when you look so similar. There could be the genetic aspect, but then there could also be this. You truly can see yourself in the other person because they are you.
- [23:39]
C
Yeah. This whole theory is not perfect, obviously. You can certainly make mistakes. And there's a whole field of study of doppelgangers, people who look alike and are unrelated. And I've studied them, I find them absolutely fascinating for a lot of reasons.
- [23:51]
A
Oh, tell me.
- [23:52]
C
Well, doppelgangers are people who happen to look alike. And the way I discovered this, there's a photographer up in Canada, he was a doppelganger. He found his lookalike and he began to be fascinated with this and developed the whole project called I'm Not a Lookalike. That's his name of his project. But they are lookalikes.
- [24:10]
A
Yeah.
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C
Anyway, it occurred to me that these kinds of people would be a great way of testing a certain criticism against twin research. So the criticism is that identical twins are alike in personality because people treat them alike based on their appearance.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah. That's a good theory.
- [24:27]
C
Well, I don't agree. It makes sense at one level, but personality is in your brain. It's not in your face. So I decided to test out how similar these unrelated lookalikes were in personality and compare that with twins raised apart and twins raised together. And actually, the best comparison is twins raised apart, because lookalikes raised apart and identical twins raised apart share genes, share their resemblance, but are raised apart. And so I said, if my data support my hypothesis, then it's the case that identical twins are treated more alike, but it's because they evoke the same treatment from those around them.
- [25:04]
A
Yes.
- [25:05]
C
Right. So I did this study, and we replicated it twice with different personality questionnaires. And I was dead on. Right. The correlations were something like 0.02 for one case and 0.04 for the other.
- [25:16]
A
So doppelgangers aren't going to have the same.
- [25:18]
C
No. Personality. No, they're not. And what makes me a little bit sad is that we have these websites now for looking for your doppelganger. And I think that the people who scour those websites are those who are looking for something in their life, and they are not gonna find it. I also did a study of these doppelgangers in terms of their social closeness to their newly found double. And they're not close. A few are, of course. I'm starting to think it's more types than it is actual. One for one. Correspondence between features.
- [25:48]
A
I was gonna say. Yeah. A six two guy is gonna have some predictable outcomes.
- [25:52]
C
Yeah. Or at least people might perceive it that way. But the doppelgangers are fascinating. And unlike identical twins raised apart, who are close when they meet and become closer over time, the doppelgangers are not close when they meet and they become less close over time.
- [26:05]
B
Oh, wow.
- [26:06]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [26:07]
C
I mean, it just fits the genetic expectations perfectly.
- [26:10]
B
Interesting.
- [26:11]
A
Now, you point out in your TED Talk this neat concept where twins fundamentally challenge how we think the world works. Like, we're supposed to be all individual, and just seeing them kind of threatens our understanding of the world. And I wondered, does that vary between countries that Prize individuality versus those who don't. More collectivist society. Are they less enamored with twins or intrigued?
- [26:37]
C
As far as I know, people are enamored with twins everywhere. And I don't think anyone has really looked at it in terms of individualistic versus collectivist societies. One could certainly test that, and I think it'd be a very interesting thing to test. But people everywhere are fascinated with twins. I've never gone anywhere. I mean, I've traveled a lot of different countries. I just came back from Greece, for example. They have a democracy there. The whole reason I was there was an invitation to a twin conference. People celebrate twins and when they hear that I'm a twin, I mean, suddenly they're all over me.
- [27:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [27:05]
C
And I actually think I'm kind of low on the twin type totem pole because I'm only a fraternal race together. Oh my God.
- [27:10]
A
And boring.
- [27:11]
C
Thank God I have a sister, not a brother. But actually I should really qualify that statement. And that is that twin research would not be what it is today if you didn't have fraternal twins. Because the classic twin comparison is identical versus fraternal. It's not so much the identical twin similarity, it's their similarity relative to fraternal twins.
- [27:30]
A
Right.
- [27:30]
C
That's where the information comes from.
- [27:32]
A
Okay, so you did numerous studies and one of them was to test cooperation between identical twins versus cooperation between fraternal twins. And that was a very interesting outcome.
- [27:45]
C
It was. You're talking about my puzzle completion studies. Yes. I got the idea for that because I was visiting the home of a woman who had four year old fraternal twins. And I saw those kids fight over that puzzle like you wouldn't believe. And I realized what a great thing for my doctoral dissertation. And I thought, how would my sister and I have done this? And I think what would have happened there is because she's so much bigger than I am. She's bigger and she's stronger. I think she would have taken the whole thing to her side of the table. At any rate, I like to do semi N, which is where you bring the same thing to the same homes. But it's still something that the twins would do anyway. Work on a puzzle together. So I brought this puzzle, same puzzle, put it down exactly as it was. The kids sat on one side of the table and I just said to everybody, solve it together. The identical twins were like a beautiful coordinated synchrony really. They faced each other, the puzzle pieces were gently placed, and no fighting and Happy smiles. And they were quite good at it. They finished it faster than the fraternals, as I remember. Right. But the fraternal twins did one of two things. Either one child completely took the pieces over to her side of the table.
- [28:52]
A
Mother and Monica.
- [28:53]
C
Or some people took a few to their side. And they took a few to their side. And of course you couldn't do the puzzle right. So then I remember one little boy snatched the puzzle from his sister. It was really quite amazing. I would sit there with my breath held because I would tell the mothers, you can't come in. Because mothers would say, oh, play nicely. If mothers thought we'd play nicely, I'd kill that mother. One of the most amazing things I were two fraternal twins and one kid put her arms like this and took all the pieces over. She's solving and the other little girl's kind of going, I want to be part of it. Then the little girl finally looked up to the camera, did this to me. That's the one that I showed all my lectures. It's absolutely amazing.
- [29:36]
A
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by Hills Pet Nutrition. Something we celebrate here on Armchair Expert is that we all have juggles, struggles, faults and flaws because we're human. Those of us with pets know this all too well. We are their whole world. And that can be a lot of pressure. Things are just going to go wrong sometimes and we can only plan for so much. Pet parent guilt is unavoidable.
- [30:05]
B
Yeah, like when you left one of your dogs when you went traveling, you probably had guilt.
- [30:10]
A
I did. Whiskey wasn't fit to make the trip, but I was relieved that he's having such a great time with Peggy at home. But yeah, because you're only human. Then there's Hills. Science does more. Find the right food@hillspet.com Dax, it's your man, Nick Cannon, and I'm here to bring you my new podcast, Nick Cannon at Night. I've heard y' all been needing some advice in the love department. So who better to help than yours truly? Nah, I'm serious. Every week I'm bringing out some of my celebrity friends and the best experts in the business to answer your most intimate relationship question questions. Having problems with your man? We got you catching feelings for your sneaky link. Let's make sure it's the real deal first. Ready to bring toys into the bedroom? Let's talk about it. Consider this a non judgment zone to ask your questions when it comes to sex and modern dating. In relationships, friendships situationships and everything in between. It's gonna be sexy, freaky, messy.
- [31:04]
C
And you know what?
- [31:05]
A
You'll just have to watch the show. So don't be shy, join the conversation and head over to YouTube to watch next Nick Cannon at night or subscribe on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. Want to watch episodes early and ad free? Join Wondery right now.
- [31:22]
B
The town of Agda in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex. But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn. The town's mayor, a respected pillar of.
- [31:36]
A
The community, has been arrested for corruption.
- [31:39]
B
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant. Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
- [31:48]
A
I am the Archangel Michael.
- [31:50]
B
The whole town has been thrown into.
- [31:53]
A
Chaos as the mayor is unable to carry out his duties.
- [31:58]
C
I would like to address you all.
- [31:59]
A
Legal proceedings have been initiated.
- [32:02]
B
Join me, Anna Richardson and journalist Leo Schicia for the mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption and magic. Binge all episodes of the mystic and the Mayor exclusively and ad free right now on Wondery. Start your free trial in Apple podcasts, Spotify or the Wondry app. Hi, I'm Monica Lewinsky. Welcome to reclaiming. I would define reclaiming as to take.
- [32:27]
A
Back what was yours.
- [32:29]
B
Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Miley Cyrus, welcome to reclaiming. My 2013 is your 1998. I lost everything during that time in my personal life because of the choices I was making professionally. Chelsea Handler, welcome to reclaiming. I did have a teacher who instilled in me that I was gonna do something special. And she was like, you're gonna have an impact. Sophia Bush, welcome to reclaiming. You went all the way. You committed, and if it wasn't for you, you have the courage to tell the truth and get out. And I had to say that to women in my life, and I had to learn how to say it in the mirror to myself. This last decade for me has really been what I consider my own reclaiming, my own journey. My own reclaiming story is in the.
- [33:15]
C
Bones of this show.
- [33:17]
B
Please listen to Reclaiming on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast.
- [33:28]
C
Now, there was overlap. There were some identicals that weren't that cooperative and some professionals that were. But the information you get about human behavior comes from the many, not the few.
- [33:37]
B
I think potentially the fraternal twins are seeking individuality a little bit more. They're already being lumped together so much in life that I could imagine them being like, no, but we're different. Whereas identical twins.
- [33:49]
A
Sorry, the ship sailed.
- [33:51]
B
Exactly.
- [33:51]
C
Actually, Monica, I think it's the absolute reverse. Because with fraternal twins, they don't have to try so hard to be individuals. They look very different, they are very different. They have different tastes and preferences and things like that. And it's very easy for parents to treat them differently. Now, some parents will lump them together, but usually the twins can't be lumped.
- [34:10]
B
Yeah.
- [34:11]
C
Now with identical twins, they will tell you that they are separate individuals. And a lot of times they don't even see the similarities. It's quite striking when you hear that because you see two identical people. I remember a mother who brought her little girls to my lab. Now she brought them on different days. Fraternal, she said. And this was a biology teacher. And then I'm thinking, second date. Why is she bringing the same girl back? And I realized these were identical twins.
- [34:34]
B
And she thought they were fraternal.
- [34:35]
C
Yes, yes.
- [34:36]
A
How often does that happen? Because pre genome mapping you couldn't have found out.
- [34:40]
C
Hospitals don't routinely do DNA tests in which they should for all same sex twins because the same behavior can have different interpretations. If twins are identical or fraternal, and if identical twins are quite different to something, say an ability test, maybe one child has a problem. Fraternal twins, if they're very different, could be they're different genes. So I'm all in favor of that. But parents are more likely to think identical twins are fraternal than fraternals are identical. And that's because they're so sensitive to subtle differences between the children that they don't even see the similarities, which is great.
- [35:11]
A
That's what you would want from your mother or your father, just to see you as an individual.
- [35:14]
C
But I think parents of identicals have to reach a kind of happy balance because after all, this is a special relationship and the twins tend to be very, very close to one another and they want to be together. And so to separate them all the time may not be what they want, or to make them do different things all the time is not what they want.
- [35:29]
A
Yeah, you probably have this fear as a parent, as all parents are fearful, like, oh, I got to make them independent. They can't go through their whole life together. I have to break them up and make them find their own way. And I could see what your fear would motivate you to do that.
- [35:40]
C
Yeah. But I think that parents can stay sensitive. I think that Parenting is so important when it comes to just being vigilant and paying attention to children. And I often tell parents, you don't bring up your child, your child brings you up. Because parents find that what works with one kid doesn't always work with the other kid.
- [35:55]
A
I love what you say that parents of one child are generally environmentalists. Environmentalists.
- [36:02]
C
And parents of two are geneticists.
- [36:04]
A
Couldn't have been more true for me. You just described us to a teeth for two years. We were like, we're crushing this. She's already potty trained. She talked before everyone.
- [36:11]
B
You took pride.
- [36:12]
A
This is the product of our hard work as parents. And then Delta arrived, and we're like, oh, no, this girl's completely different.
- [36:18]
C
I think the best informed parents without even book learning are the parents of fraternal twins, because they've got kids at the same moment, and they can just see how different they are. I'll tell you honestly, they know more about human behavior and development than a lot of my colleagues, really. A lot of my colleagues kind of give lip service. Yes, genetics, but it's all the environment.
- [36:38]
A
I know no one with two kids would say that.
- [36:39]
C
And another fascinating thing is that rear to park twins, they often think that their behaviors are environmentally influenced until they meet their twin, and suddenly they do a complete revision of everything they thought about. It's quite strik.
- [36:50]
A
Okay, so your work, along with all the twin stuff, is, I imagine, one of the main sources that we get that lead us more to embrace that. At best, this is a mix of nature and nurture, and it might be more nature than we think it is. I wonder. You must have seen three identical strangers that documentary. Yes. It's so great. And as a parent, it's an interesting experience to watch it. The premise for people who don't know triplets are separated at birth, and they slowly start discovering each other in their early 20s, I think, at college, 19. At first, you're going through all the similarities, right? They smoke the same cigarettes, they like the same T shirts. And when you're a parent, you're going, well, what's even the point? I don't even have really a role in this. But as the doc unfolds, and they do a great job of it, you learn, oh, no, there's a lot of nurture also going on. And so that, to me, brings up the question of how do you correct for the kind of confirmation bias that's just so right, in that you're gonna bring together two separated identical twins. You're naturally gonna focus Similarities that are peculiar defy explanation. The same toothpaste from Switzerland. And you're gonna miss tons of ways that they're completely different because you're in search of it.
- [38:01]
C
You're wrong.
- [38:02]
A
Okay, great.
- [38:03]
C
We did not focus on the similarities they came up. We simply looked at a lot of different measures. Medical measures, psychological measures, physiological measures like.
- [38:14]
A
Intelligence, athleticism, blood pressure.
- [38:16]
C
I mean, all kinds of things. We let the data just tell us what happened. And quite frankly, we were surprised at how similar the twins were. We expected things like in social attitudes and religiosity there'd be differences, but they were very similar. And when you think about it, see, the early studies in twin research looked at religiosity. What is that? How much you participate in religious activities, how spiritual are you? But they studied children. That was a mistake. They studied children who are under the thumbs of their parents.
- [38:44]
B
Yes, that's right.
- [38:44]
C
So they're going to do what they're going to do. So the identical fraternal twin differences never emerged. When you study adults who are free to choose, then the genetic factors start to emerge. So when we say that behavior has genetic influence, it certainly does. I think that nature certainly plays a role. But what happens is that more behaviors than we previously would have thought have a genetic influence, like social attitudes, like religiosity, reactions to films. Now, three identical strangers. Let's get back to that for a second. Yeah, I love that movie. And I wrote a book about that unethical twin study that they were part of in the 1960s. There was a psychiatric consultant, Viola Bernard, who worked with Louise Wise Services, where mothers would come and they would leave their babies. These were single Jewish moms, and if they had twins, this consultant said twins should be separated because if they grow up together, then they're not gonna be able to individuate. There was no literature to back that at all. There was a doctor named Dr. Peter Neubauer, who knew Dr. Viola Bernard, who was the consultant. And he decided to study these twins. And the parents who had one twin told your child's in a child development study. But they were never told that it was a twin study. And this all came out later when the triplets met. I was fascinated with this. And everyone came up to me and said, you have got to do the book on this. And I was hesitant because I knew that it was gonna be controversial, but I knew I was the best person in the world to do it.
- [40:11]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:12]
C
So I did it. My book Deliberately Divided came out in 2021. But. But at Any rate, everyone thinks that it was Viola Bernard's idea to separate the twins and that Peter Neubauer then took advantage of the situation and studied them. I'm not so sure. I have a feeling that maybe he wanted to study them because he always thought about it and he was seeking a reason to separate. I think that's a possibility. I'm putting that forward with no real hard evidence. There were five sets of identical twins who were in this study. And the one set of triplets, in fact, one set was actually dropped, which was such bad science because they were adopted at very different times and at different birth weights. But that's not good science. You keep in the different ones.
- [40:52]
A
Anything that's inconvenient you don't get to just throw out.
- [40:55]
C
Of course not. You're gonna bias your data that way. The Minnesota study of twins raised apart, we looked at fraternal twins, too, which was a new thing. The previous studies had not done that. And I will say that in this unethical study in the 1960s, they studied the identicals, but they separated the fraternals and didn't study them.
- [41:12]
A
Oh.
- [41:12]
C
You have to ask yourself why. Of course fraternal twins would not have a problem with individuations so much. Cause they look so different.
- [41:18]
A
Yeah. You would think you'd be using it as a control group, but you're not even studying it, so it's not.
- [41:21]
C
Yeah. And there were at least four or five sets of fraternals that we know about. The identicals met like the triplets, confused identity. But fraternals are not gonna undergo that, so they're never gonna know. Right. There are probably fraternal twins running around out there that will never know that they were twins.
- [41:34]
B
Yeah.
- [41:35]
A
Yes.
- [41:35]
C
And I will say that maybe you don't know, but another movie came out about this situation called the Twinning Reaction.
- [41:41]
A
Oh, no, I haven't seen it.
- [41:42]
C
Yes, it's an excellent movie. Also, it got less attention. I was asked to be a consultant on three Identical Strangers, but I'd already put my loyalties in this other one.
- [41:51]
A
Okay.
- [41:52]
C
But I am in the other one.
- [41:53]
A
I'm a very loyal person. What's that one called again?
- [41:55]
C
The Twinning Reaction. And if you need a link to it, I can send that. It's out. It's a fascinating movie.
- [42:00]
A
Oh, I would love that, because I love three identical strangers.
- [42:02]
C
Yeah. I thought the reenactment in that was superb. It was very accurate. And exactly as that it happened. I know a lot about those triplets.
- [42:08]
A
So now here's what I'm saying about the full arc of this exploration, which is fascinating. Initially, identical twins that are separated provide this really unique opportunity to demonstrate the power of your DNA, your genetics. @ that time. When you start, we have not mapped the genome, so we can't do a genetic test, but now we can. Now we can look at genes. We're starting to learn certain genes are predictive of a lot of different things. I said the caffeine thing. Misophonia is one that comes up on a genetic test, right?
- [42:40]
C
Many, many things.
- [42:41]
A
Yes. The value of twins almost flips at this point, because now, as opposed to bringing them back together, seeing the similarities to prove that genetics have a role in this, now you're bringing identical twins together to see these differences that have emerged in pursuit of proving how powerful the epigenome is, which becomes a kind of new area of exploration. So let's talk about the epigenome.
- [43:04]
C
I see what you're saying, that twin studies have a kind of different function now than they had in the past.
- [43:08]
A
Yeah.
- [43:09]
C
When the Minnesota study was in play, that was 1979 to 1999, we brought in the twins and studied their behavior. And now you can actually look at their genes and you can get all different kinds of things. So a study like we did would probably not fly right now. Although I do all kinds of studies with twins. I will say that even though we're in an era now where we're looking at the molecular side of things, I think there's no substitution for actually having a pair of flesh and blood twins in front of you and watching them. There are so many things we still have to study. Now when we talk about the epigenome, we're talking about genetic expression and how that can change based on circumstance. And this is where identical twins can be enormously valuable. This is where it's so important for learning about other people, non twins. I think people had this wrong impression that twin research is for twins only. It's not. It's a model for understanding human behavior writ large.
- [44:01]
A
Right.
- [44:01]
C
Okay. Suppose one identical twin has Alzheimer's, the other one does not. We've seen cases like that. And so what is it that turns on the genes for one and not on the other? Why is it that one identical twin is homosexual and the other one isn't?
- [44:14]
A
You have that?
- [44:15]
C
Yes. Is there a gene or a group of genes that flips on? Is it some hormonal exposure? I've studied identical twins where one undergoes transsexual reassignment surgery.
- [44:24]
A
Oh, no kidding.
- [44:25]
C
Why does one identical female twin feel like a male from the age of three and the other one does not?
- [44:30]
A
Yes. Interesting.
- [44:31]
C
Why is that interesting? These are things that we can understand. So now think about schizophrenia. 40% similarity rate in identical twins. Why is that? And we can look at the epigenome, we can look at birth factors, we can look at brain structures, lots of different things. And there's probably not just one explanation. There's probably many, many explanations for this.
- [44:50]
A
Yeah. What are some of the explanations that you found looking at that? Cause when I went to college and I had an abnormal psychology class, and they were explaining that schizophrenia in particular is a genetic predisposition, but then there's a stressful event in this window of time that can activate it.
- [45:07]
C
So it could be a stressful event. It's diathesis, stress theory, that you have a predisposition, but if you're not stressed, it may never be expressed. They find differences in brain structure where one identical twin has it and the other one doesn't. One of the most fascinating cases was the Janane Quadruplets. Do you know about that case?
- [45:23]
A
No, tell us.
- [45:24]
C
Oh, it was an amazing case. This came out in 1963 at the time when genetics didn't basically exist in people's psychological themes and everything was environmentally oriented. So they were four identical quads born in Michigan, and they all had schizophrenia, but to varying degrees of severity.
- [45:44]
B
Wow.
- [45:45]
C
Yeah. And so a book came out called the Janane Quadruplets. Now, Janane is not their real name. Janain means dreadful birth or dire genesis. And they were given the names nimh, Nora, Iris, Myra, and Hester, after nimh, the National Institute of Mental Health, where they were studied.
- [46:02]
A
Okay.
- [46:03]
C
Now, I was privileged to know their real names because my first year in grad school, I rode away to all these places to try to get a summer job, and I got a couple of offers, but the one I took was to be a research assistant on the study of the Dunane quadruplets.
- [46:17]
A
At U of M?
- [46:18]
C
No, at nimh. And so I got to read all the correspondence that they sent to the investigator, and I was coding it and looking for certain themes. I mean, it was a dream job.
- [46:27]
B
Wow, that's so cool.
- [46:28]
C
I was thrilled about that. But they came out at a time when genetics was not a major explanation for psychopathology. So it kind of rattled the boat.
- [46:37]
A
Well, people were probably quick to say those parents did something. If all four of them turned out.
- [46:41]
C
Schizophrenic, I will say that there were still critics of Genetics, but they're few and far between. You can't explain certain things without reference to genetics. You just can't.
- [46:50]
A
Right. And so what was the explanation you guys felt most confident in about these varying outcomes of the same illness?
- [46:58]
C
Part of it had to do with how parents treated them in terms of their birth order. That's just one of many explanations. But I remember that there was a preferred pair and a non preferred pair. The preferred pair was birth order one, birth order three. And the non preferred pair was birth order two, birth order four. And the fourth one was really, really. I mean, she was the sickest of all. So the second born didn't want to be with her. They think that part of her resentment came into play. Birth order three, who was paired in the preferred pair? She actually was less affected than others. And she actually married and had some kids and wrote an autobiography.
- [47:32]
A
Oh, wow.
- [47:32]
C
But nevertheless, she had some strange behaviors. It's amazing that they were all so different. It could have been something epigenetic. We really can just speculate as to why they came out so different.
- [47:40]
B
Did they all get it at the same time?
- [47:43]
C
Pretty much, yeah.
- [47:44]
A
Because there's a window, right? It's like from 17 to 25 or something.
- [47:48]
C
Most young adults, yeah, that's usually when it is. But they had strange behaviors even before. And there was some evidence of child abuse and things like that.
- [47:55]
A
Okay, let's drill down a little further on epigenome, because what's really fascinating about this new field that we're learning more and more about epigenetics is it brings back Lamarckian evolution in a way. In that, know your environment, your body could real time respond, and although it couldn't alter your overall DNA, it can certainly alter how the DNA is used. So far, there's a lot of people that believe you can pass that on. You can talk about that a little bit. That's fascinating.
- [48:24]
C
So the fact that parents can pass on genes to children is well known. The fact that they can pass on altered expression also can happen.
- [48:33]
A
We hear this about trauma quite a bit, that it seems to be transferable.
- [48:37]
C
It seems to be because if you look at Holocaust survivors, children have certain kinds of of behaviors that are not typical. Some people say, well, it's because they're around their parents, but it could also be something passed down in the genes.
- [48:47]
A
It would be interesting to see if the orphans of those people had the same outcomes or similar.
- [48:52]
C
Right. My understanding is that these epigenetic changes that are passed on eventually may fade over time as people have different experiences. And things of that sort. But the DNA stays intact, Right?
- [49:03]
A
The epigenome's fluid and the DNA is fixed.
- [49:06]
C
That's true.
- [49:07]
B
It is weird that Mary Kate and Ashley are fraternal twins and they look identical. Let's talk about Isn't that.
- [49:13]
A
That just turned out. They've never taken a DNA test.
- [49:16]
C
I have seen many pictures of them and I know they have a store in Los Angeles, clothing stores. They're identical. I mean, there's no question about them.
- [49:22]
A
Oh, Monica, that was a slam dunk for me.
- [49:25]
C
There's no question. And I think they're doing a real disservice by not having a DNA test.
- [49:28]
B
Do we know for sure they haven't?
- [49:30]
C
Maybe they have and it's never come out. I don't know. But I would bet my money on them being identical. Also, one's right handed and one's left handed. 25% of ident are opposite handed. That's the same for fraternal twins too. But still, their faces look a little asymmetrical to me, which is consistent with that.
- [49:46]
A
Listen, again, I dated one of them and I was around the other quite a bit. And I was fascinated by the fact that they were definitely identical and definitely quite different. I found that endlessly interesting.
- [49:57]
C
Yes. You know what I find endlessly interesting, and I'm working on this right now in the book that I'm writing is I'm interested in why someone like you might be attracted to one identical twin and not to the other. And I'm also interested in the other way around. Why one of the twins finds one person attractive and the other one does not. I find that fascinating.
- [50:15]
A
Yes.
- [50:16]
C
And I think that maybe in the second scenario where you've got two twins and one is attracted and the other one isn't, they could have both been, but one sets up something, the other one kind of backs off. And the reason I say that is because I was in England to do a TV show. And a lot of times TV has these gimmicky little experiments. But this one was brilliant. They didn't realize how brilliant it was. So they had four pairs of identical twins in different rooms. And they brought in identical twin actors and actresses to meet these twins as potential dating partners. And the twins found the same potential dating partners attractive. Not all identical twins are gonna meet identical twins. You know, there's a limit. So I think that's what happens. But I will also say that I've studied identical twins who've married identical twins.
- [51:00]
A
It has to be very rare.
- [51:01]
C
It's not as rare as you think. A lot of them go to Twinsburg, Ohio, where they have these festivals in August, the Twins Days festival. And some of them go specifically to meet twins. And why is that? Because they want their spouse to understand just how meaningful this relationship is so the spouse won't get jealous and easier.
- [51:17]
A
To marry the two. Like, if you want to stay in constant contact but also get a partner, it's helpful if your partners are also in the same situation.
- [51:23]
C
And if you have babies, you got a built in babysitter too.
- [51:26]
A
And then your children. Okay.
- [51:30]
C
Because I have a lot of fascinating things to say about the kids. I met these identical twins who married identical twins. And I went out and hung out with them for a couple of days. And I assumed naively that didn't matter who you married, everybody's genetically interchangeable. Oh, I was really wrong. I picked this one. She's got a sweeter, gentler face. That meant a lot. I picked the one who was the first one. I picked the one who was the more dominant because I'm submissive. And two dominants would hit each other and submissives would never get in the long. There were real reasons why certain pairs went together. And I've read about a couple or so that met recently, and it's almost immediate who goes with whom. It's just amazing how it gets decided when identical twins marry. Identical twins. Of course, the children are legal first cousins, but they're genetic full siblings. Yeah. And what is more common, though, is identical twins who marry unrelated people and their children are genetic half siblings. And in those cases, the aunt is the mother and the father is the uncle, if it's the twin mothers or twin fathers.
- [52:25]
A
Yeah. I do think that's confusing when your mom and aunt are identical. We interviewed someone whose mother died and then their identical twin sister stepped in to help, and I thought, well, that's as good as it's ever gonna get for somebody who loses their parent.
- [52:40]
C
And now, one case I wanna tell you about, and I'll come back to that is I met one family with identical twins who married identical twins and they had children on the same day. Can you calculate the relationship between those kids?
- [52:51]
A
Can I calculate the relationship between. Oh, so they were born on the same day. They have the exact same two contributing genetic pool.
- [53:01]
B
So they're the same person.
- [53:02]
C
No, no, no, no, no, no. They are fraternal twins, genetically speaking.
- [53:07]
B
Oh. Cause they were separate.
- [53:09]
C
They're not strictly twins because they didn't share the womb, but they were born on the same day.
- [53:13]
A
To the same parents, the same sperm and ovum.
- [53:15]
C
Right. So they're like fraternal twins.
- [53:17]
A
Yes. Because you asked me, I was certainly way more attractive to the one I was with.
- [53:24]
C
I think studying a situation like yours would tell us a lot about mate selection, about the very subtle things that spell the difference between loving and liking. Twins are ideal for studying mate selection.
- [53:36]
A
Yeah.
- [53:38]
B
Don't you think some of this leads to just that attraction is environmental then?
- [53:43]
C
I don't know. I think attraction is too complicated to just attribute it to one set of sex.
- [53:47]
B
Sure. Maybe it's a multiple layer.
- [53:49]
C
The smell.
- [53:50]
B
Yeah.
- [53:51]
C
I mean, we tend to like somebody who sort of likes, but not too much like us, not too different. It's a lot of things.
- [53:57]
B
I did used to have a theory that people are attracted romantically to people who have some sort of similar features to themselves. Even if things are very different, like race is different, or overtly, they don't look the same. But once you really start looking, it's like, oh, actually they both have prominent this or big eyes.
- [54:17]
C
You're very smart. Because we find that similarities are true. Attract. Right. Birds of the feather. It's not that opposites attract. Now, the biggest features that attract people are values. Things like that. Height and weight, not so much. The physical features, not so much. But it's values and educational levels, those are really important.
- [54:35]
A
Okay, so you're about to say the new book you're writing.
- [54:37]
C
No, I was gonna say that. A study that I'm writing.
- [54:38]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [54:39]
C
A study we got from these twins married to twins. It's all framed within evolutionary psychology. And so I hypothesized that identical twins would be more heavily invested in their identical twin sisters or brothers children than would fraternal twins. And that's exactly what I found.
- [54:57]
B
Oh, wow.
- [54:57]
C
Yeah. It's a behavioral genetic design to look at an evolutionary based hypothesis. That's what I did.
- [55:03]
A
What was the construct of that? Like, how do you test for that?
- [55:05]
C
So what I did was I constructed a questionnaire that had 36 items in it asking about, does this child look like it could have been your child? How much time do you spend with this child? Do you think of this child as your own questions along those lines. And the identical twins came out with higher scores than the fraternal twins did, which didn't surprise me at all.
- [55:23]
A
Yeah, well, again, this is insanely anecdotal, but it's just been my own personal experience. My kids, well, one in particular is a little shyer, very slow to warm up to new kids her age. That's pretty consistent across the board. I have my cousin down out with his kids. She knows their cousins immediately. It's on. There was none of that self consciousness. The shyness is gone. It was stark. It's like, oh, my God, they just arrived. They don't know each other. And they're immediately at ease with each other. And I'm like, is this something genetic happening that just wouldn't happen with a stranger entering the house?
- [55:56]
C
It's hard to know. It could be just a meshing of personalities that the kids have. But one of the most striking things I ever saw was a reunion between identical female twins. They were born in China and they were separated because of the one child policy. One day I get this telephone call from the mom in Sacramento who told me she was raising a twin raised apart from China, and the other twin was in a little town in Norway in the fjords. Whoa.
- [56:21]
A
Oh, what a different nurture.
- [56:23]
C
So here's what happened about that time. The BBC contacted me and said, got any good stories for us? I said, if you will fly the Norwegian family to Sacramento and flying me from Fullerton to Sacramento, you've got yourself a story. And they did.
- [56:36]
A
And were you there for the first time they met?
- [56:37]
C
Oh, yes.
- [56:38]
A
Oh, my goodness. What was that like?
- [56:39]
C
And so the little girl runs out of her house and the little girl outside is jumping up and down. And then this other one comes out, looks exactly like her, and she starts jumping up and down.
- [56:48]
A
How old were they?
- [56:49]
C
Six.
- [56:49]
A
Six.
- [56:50]
C
And of course, one spoke English, one spoke Norwegian. But I observed the kids playing and they played together like know each other all the last. They somehow figured it out. And I had a wonderful picture that I took of the kids where they're standing back to back, they're holding hands. And I happened to go back to Norway about eight years later for a conference in Oslo, but I went out to Fresnik in the fjords and I positioned the same way. This most amazing Tanmas photography because the one who was taller before is a little taller now. I remember seeing them at age 14 where the other one can now speak English. And they would just leave the adults and they'd go somewhere and just talked. They had this world of their own. That's what identical twins do. And I think that many people envy that closeness.
- [57:29]
B
Yes, definitely.
- [57:31]
A
You probably never went down this path because it wasn't your discipline. By maybe like linguists would be interested in this, but did you ever explore how much they can communicate? I think that's a Fascination. We have.
- [57:43]
C
It is a fascination. And I have not studied it systematically, but I've observed many, many cases. I've gone to twins homes where I'll say, who's going first? They look at each other, suddenly one leaves and one stays. And what is transpiring there? I don't know. People call it twin language, but it's really not a language. It's a system of communications. Words, gestures, phrases that twins often evolve because they're so close together. Identical twins and fraternal twins will both do it. My sister and I had little games that we used to play sometimes, but the identical twins do it to a much greater degree. And it'll just be like they hold up an object, they give it a name, and it's very fascinating to watch it. But it's not a language, it's just a system of communication. And what it can do is delay the onset of normal language in twins. And so parents have to be mindful of that because if they spend too much time together, they won't be able to converse inappropriate ways with their peers or with adults.
- [58:35]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [58:37]
B
What a fascinating topic.
- [58:39]
A
I know. I'm kind of jealous that you got this.
- [58:42]
C
You should, because I discover some stuff all the time, new things all the time.
- [58:46]
A
I guess my last question about them is do they over index in just self esteem? I feel like if I had a built in partner that I would just be a little less fearful about the world in general.
- [58:58]
C
I think that's true to some extent because I've interviewed a number of twins who say that they never had the peer pressures that other people had. They didn't feel like they had to conform to things. They were very comfortable with each other, didn't need a lot of friends, and felt very good about it. And, and I think along those lines I've just been so impressed with how selfless identical twins are. And what I mean by that is athletes, kids who run for student government, you'd think that everybody wants to win. It doesn't matter to them if they win or their twin wins. And I found that really hard to understand at first. Wow. But it's true. I spoke to these twins who ran for student government and they both ran as presidents and they didn't care who won. They said, we will be president.
- [59:36]
B
Wow.
- [59:36]
C
They used a lot of we's, a lot of Wes.
- [59:39]
B
Too bad the rest of us can. I can't feel that that's very special. It's a good thing to feel like a we as opposed to an I.
- [59:47]
C
You're Absolutely right. It's such a non judgmental, accepting relationship that you can be yourself completely. And what a luxury to be yourself and know that you're always going to be loved and always accepted. That's what people are really after. And I think that's what's driving people to find their doppelgangers, probably.
- [60:04]
A
You know, we interviewed an identical twin and she was saying that she thought the gift of it is when you got into middle school and high school and you're trying out identities, she basically got to watch someone do experiments for her. Her sister would try a new hairstyle and she could sit back and go, like, well, that's how it'll work out for me. And she just took this role of like, yeah, you run the experiment and I'll keep what works. And I was like, oh, that's a neat strategic way.
- [60:32]
C
I read an article in the New Yorker magazine and it was about sort of the paths untaken and how we all can imagine how our lives would turn out if we'd married someone else or gone to a different school or taken a different job. The experiment that you're describing with different hairstyles, that's on kind of a low level. But identical twins raised apart are the only people in the world who can really see themselves in a life unlived. Really. It's fascinating.
- [60:55]
A
Yeah. They meet up and go, wow, okay, so if I would have went to.
- [60:57]
C
That school, this would have happened if.
- [60:59]
A
I would have imagined.
- [60:59]
B
Yes.
- [60:59]
C
I don't know if you know the case of the twins where one was raised Jewish and one was raised in Nazi Germany.
- [61:04]
A
Tell me that one, Jack and I.
- [61:06]
C
Oscar, they were born to a Romanian Jewish father and a German Catholic mother in Trinidad. The couple met on a boat heading to Trinidad and they had a little girl. And then three and a half years later, they had Jack and Oskar, identical twin boys. When the marriage soured, Jack stayed with his father in Trinidad and was raised Jewish. And Oscar went back to Nazi Germany with his mom and was raised Catholic. And he was not a Nazi, as many of the newspapers will tell you.
- [61:32]
B
He.
- [61:32]
C
He was 12 years old when the war ended. He was in the Hitler Youth, but he thought it was a great opportunity to play sports, go camping, not go to church. And so when they met, they met at 21 for the first time and they didn't get along at all because they had very different political understandings. They couldn't speak the same language.
- [61:48]
A
Had his brother been in a concentration camp or anything?
- [61:51]
C
No. The Jewish one had lived in Trinidad and he had been to the Israeli navy. So then they met again at 40 when the wife of one of them discovered the Minnesota study of twins raised apart. So by now the twins are 40, and they're thinking, let's give this a shot. And it turned out they had the most amazing love hate relationship. But the most fascinating thing about them was that they both knew that had their positions been switched, they would have embraced the ideology and understandings that they currently despised. Yes, and I find that fascinating. That's a very good example of an environment. Now, how did they handle their respective situations is interesting. So Jack, raised in Trinidad, was afraid that somebody would discover his German roots, so he became very pro British. And Oscar was afraid somebody would discover his Jewish roots, so he became very pro German. The content was different, but the approach was the same.
- [62:40]
A
Right, Survival incentives. Yeah. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Okay, my last question is, are there any cases of these twins reuniting and not carrying on with a relationship, or they all develop a relationship?
- [63:07]
C
There have been a few, but every pair has been very, very grateful to have met the other one. They have learned so much about themselves, their medical history, where their habits come from. They've all been very, very pleased to understand their backgrounds. But there have been a few cases. I remember there was one where one was quite religious and one was. And that didn't really work out very well.
- [63:27]
B
Yeah, I heard this horrible, sad story. A friend of a friend, when she was like 6 or 7, I think her twin, I believe identical, was killed. And she was talking about her life since then and how she has such a hard time in romantic relationships. And she said, I think I'm always sort of looking for her.
- [63:48]
C
That's exactly what happens. Because you expect other people to have that same insight and acceptance, and they simply don't. And you're always testing this out. I have a long study going on of twins whose twins have passed away. And I do find grief intensity higher among the identicals than the fraternal. So it's another approach to the same class of questions we've been talking about all afternoon. It's a devastating event, and many twins will tell me that they wish they had gone first.
- [64:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I also. Yeah, I could imagine you could be underwhelmed with a relationship if you're an identical twin. Like, you've experienced a closeness that you would expect to be there romantically and then wouldn't be and be a little underwhelmed with the experience.
- [64:26]
C
Absolutely. And some twins have Said we share things with each other that we'll never share with our husbands. And that's why I think for some twins, it makes sense to marry a twin because then they understand the situation.
- [64:37]
A
Yes. I just want to go on the one I read about, or I guess you discussed them in your TED Talk about the two women that were reunited, the giggle twins. This is my fantasy of if I discovered an identical twin at some point, what was their reaction to meeting each other?
- [64:51]
C
They were thrilled. And the interesting thing about the giggle twins is they only giggle in the presence of the other one. They were rather shy women, but they would giggle uncontrollably when they were together. And this was a real problem. I was on a TV show with them once, and, I mean, they wouldn't stop gigging.
- [65:07]
A
They lost it.
- [65:08]
C
And finally the host really had to stop the segment because we weren't getting anywhere.
- [65:12]
B
Oh, my God.
- [65:13]
C
They had a lot of similarities, those two. They had a very crooked pinky finger, and they concocted a drink called Twin Sin. I can't remember all the ingredients, but I know that Blue Curacao was.
- [65:22]
A
And cream.
- [65:24]
C
And cream, yeah.
- [65:25]
A
And you tried it and you're like, this is not a drink.
- [65:27]
C
It wasn't quite my thing. And they were both very apolitical. They both met their husbands at dances.
- [65:32]
B
Were they separated and then.
- [65:34]
C
Yes, they met, I think, in their late 20s, early 30s, something like that.
- [65:37]
A
Okay, I lied. It feels like more hijinks and funny business was going on in the fertility world in the 70s and 80s, and that we've somewhat straightened this out are examples of this declining, separated identical twins. Does that happen as much now as it did in the 80s or 70s?
- [65:53]
C
That's a very hard question to answer, because I don't know if it's any less, but I do think it's for different reasons. Twins were separated, say, in Argentina during some political times. I just came back from Greece between 1960 and 1980. There were a lot of illegal adoptions going on where twins were born. The hospital would take one, tell the parents the twin had died, and sell it to a couple who was childless. Those kinds of things go on. Do you know what is amazing is when people have IVF in vitro fertilization, they know the chances of twinning are higher. Now we're back to implanting only one embryo because they're better able to manage it. But when it began, they would plant 2, 3, 4 sometimes. But anyway, the very first case of twins, the mother gave away the little boy. She kept the little Girl. And I'm thinking to myself, how'd you do this when you paid all this money for it? You knew the risks.
- [66:41]
B
Wow. And you obviously wanted a kid so bad. You went through this process.
- [66:45]
C
And so to have two is a blessing. But there had been some mistakes. You still read about them where somebody's embryos get wrongly planted, or they mix the wrong sperm with the wrong egg or something like that. Those things do happen.
- [66:56]
A
Or you find out it was your doctor's sperm.
- [66:58]
B
Yeah, that was a big thing in early ivf. But, yeah, this, like, switched implanted. A different embryo is.
- [67:05]
A
I'll hit you with an incredible one. They have not genetically tested their kids, but I have a friend who had a couple kids naturally. Then the wife had some complication during a delivery, and she knew the uterus was gonna be destroyed, and they froze eggs and they had a bank of eggs, and so they implanted one of the eggs. And then this daughter is born. Then they have another kid with another egg. Then they have a kid again, and the kid comes out, and even me, who's not the parent, I'm like, boy, she looks a lot like. I can't say her name. But the older daughter. And they're like, yes, yes. And this continues to the point where they finally get a hold of the fertility doctor. And so is it possible that they're identical twins? That those two eggs had split?
- [67:55]
C
Oh, I see what you're saying. So in the petri dish, something could have split. That is possible. They should do the DNA test.
- [68:01]
A
Yeah, they should. And can you imagine that would be the most fascinating study for you to ever approach? Because now you have identical twins separated by, like, six years of age chronologically.
- [68:10]
C
Still, I have criteria for what's an identical twin, Because I thought a lot about how twins inform our understanding of human reproductive cloning. And I would not consider them identical twins. Why? They don't share their birthday and they didn't share a womb. And in fact, if you assign that label to them, it could be a problem.
- [68:24]
A
Okay. But you'd still be interested in studying them, because my. I'm like, if this is real, I want them. Yes. Because if it's real, think about knowing what you will look like in six years. Your whole life is such a bizarre.
- [68:37]
C
Or if the older one made a terrible life choice.
- [68:39]
B
Yeah.
- [68:40]
C
See, that's why when I talk about human reproductive clones, I just wrote a big paper on this from a conference. Everyone raises these challenges, and there are certainly challenges that are legitimate, but in some ways, it could be a Benefit because the parent who's the donor could maybe understand the psyche of the child and maybe help that child along to avoid different pitfalls in life.
- [69:02]
A
So this would be an example where someone had a child, the child died and then they cloned that child.
- [69:08]
B
No, the cloning of yourself.
- [69:09]
C
No, you just clone yourself.
- [69:10]
A
Oh, oh, okay.
- [69:11]
C
Yeah.
- [69:11]
A
Oh, oh. To make everything that's you.
- [69:13]
C
Yeah. Suppose you're infertile. Suppose you're. You're the last person in the family line.
- [69:17]
A
Yeah. What's your position on cloning yourself?
- [69:19]
C
Well, I have no problem with it because not everybody's gonna do it. We can get women who are 70 years old pregnant with donated embryos. You don't see 70 year old women running out to have children, do you?
- [69:29]
A
No.
- [69:30]
C
People are still gonna wanna have children the old fashioned way. And if you clone yourself, at least you have some knowledge of what you're getting.
- [69:36]
A
I would wanna clone myself, but I would say that's egomaniacal.
- [69:39]
C
Adoption is a great alternative if you've got an infertile couple. But it's still a bit of a risk. You don't know the genes you're gonna get this way at least you know, I mean, at. It's not predictive. Cause it's different generations, but still it's something. And I think that I'm fine with it. We have issues of safety and ethics and financing and decision making a lot. But I use the twin model to challenge the challenges that have been raised, which are just provocative and emotionally driven.
- [70:04]
A
Yes. And probably religious undertones. Would you want to have cloned?
- [70:08]
B
What if I cloned your kid?
- [70:11]
A
Oh, Delta. You wanted a Delta.
- [70:13]
B
They're young. That's also very interesting environment, being raised with different parents. It's a similar thing. It's exactly the similar thing.
- [70:21]
C
Yeah. I mean it's kind of like twins raised apart. But remember, if you clone somebody, even the donor clones himself. It's not an exact replica. Different generations, there can be cell errors. It's not exactly the same.
- [70:32]
A
Right. Rarely does your phenotype perfectly match your genotype. Yeah. Do you want to have yourself now?
- [70:38]
B
No.
- [70:39]
A
I don't know why it feels egomaniacal. Right. It feels egomaniacal, like I'm just gonna.
- [70:43]
B
Make another one one of me already.
- [70:45]
A
The challenge as a parent is to remind yourself they're not you, they're not an extension of you. Let them be themselves. I mean, how hard would that be when. No, they are you.
- [70:54]
C
Yeah, but can I ask you something? How many parents look at their children and say an Extension of me.
- [70:59]
B
They do. That's the.
- [71:01]
A
Oh, we all do.
- [71:02]
C
And one of the criticism of cloning is that you see the child's an extension, but I say ordinary parents do as well.
- [71:08]
A
Yeah, you're right. It's not different.
- [71:10]
B
It's not different, but it is something compounded. It is. It would be. Be like. So you're definitely gonna joined the play in a couple years. Well, you know, now and then you.
- [71:21]
A
Get to find out. You could find out some terrible realities, which is like in my story, had I been supported as a kid, I have this aptitude for driving. And if someone had paid for a race team, I would have definitely been a Formula one driver. And I could provide that for my kid and be like, oh, I guess I couldn't. You'd find out the hard way you were.
- [71:38]
C
Maybe the kid wouldn't have any interest in car racing. It's not the sport du jour. Jour.
- [71:43]
B
Yes, it is slippery though, because you're almost wanting to give yourself the life you wish you had, which is what.
- [71:49]
A
You do as a parent.
- [71:50]
C
But that's.
- [71:51]
A
My parents do that. Yes. And I did it. And then they don't want to do that because you want what you don't have.
- [71:58]
C
That's right. So, anything else?
- [72:02]
A
No. That was wonderful, Nancy. That was so fun. We've been talking about twins for seven years and dying to have an expert on. On. And you're just so perfect for that.
- [72:11]
C
Well, I'm glad I had fun.
- [72:14]
A
We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes.
- [72:22]
B
I hope it's not going to explode.
- [72:24]
A
Oh, I hope it does. No, that'd be so viral.
- [72:27]
B
Oh, that's true.
- [72:28]
A
A huge AC explosion.
- [72:30]
B
Yes, that is true.
- [72:32]
A
Or that thing blew up and then when all the smoke settled, your sides was shaved.
- [72:40]
B
That'd be your dream come true. That's your 1111 wish.
- [72:44]
A
I'm trying to think if I'll ever have an anniversary that would warrant you. Or maybe if I'm. I get diagnosed with something terminal.
- [72:52]
B
Don't say that.
- [72:53]
A
You could shave your side.
- [72:55]
B
I'm not doing it especially. Oh, you won't now because you cause of this, then you jinx. I don't know where to knock. I don't know how to do it.
- [73:03]
A
Deathbed wish. You won't shave the sides.
- [73:05]
B
No, because you. You. You implanted this. You made it happen. I'll blame you.
- [73:10]
A
Only if you're for your fun new life.
- [73:12]
B
What?
- [73:14]
A
Wait till you see how your life takes off. Once you have that shaved side, you're gonna Be like going to different clubs and stuff.
- [73:20]
B
I am.
- [73:21]
A
You're a whole new chapter of your life.
- [73:23]
B
I am very happy with my life. Speaking of that, I've been playing a lot of solitaire.
- [73:29]
A
I just learned it with a deck of cards.
- [73:32]
B
Yes. Yes.
- [73:32]
A
You just learned solitaire.
- [73:34]
B
Yes. And I'm still not sure I have the rules 100% correct, but I love it. I've been playing it a lot and I told Eric that I've been playing a lot and he said, oh, I'm sorry. You know, as he is, as he does.
- [73:52]
A
It doesn't sound. When you learn someone's been playing a lot of solitary, it. It does make you a little concerned about that.
- [73:59]
B
I know, but that's like a weird stigma if you're watching TV by yourself. No one says that. It's like the game by yourself thing really makes people feel bad.
- [74:09]
A
It does. Yeah. It makes me like, feel like you're bored.
- [74:13]
B
No.
- [74:14]
A
And lonely.
- [74:16]
B
I know, but this is crazy. This is.
- [74:18]
A
And isolating and.
- [74:22]
B
It'S so wrong. It's like instead of what everyone else is doing is just staring at their phone and scrolling Instagram all day. I'm like, I'm gonna get my brain going.
- [74:31]
A
Well, when Eric tells you he plays video games all day, how do you feel? Feel?
- [74:35]
B
Yeah. I don't like that, but I think that's because that's like screen. Like that.
- [74:39]
A
Screen time.
- [74:40]
B
Yeah. If he was playing solitary for six hours a day on his phone.
- [74:45]
A
I mean, look, however anyone wants to pass their time on this trip on. On planet Earth.
- [74:50]
B
Really? Yeah.
- [74:51]
A
That's fine. It does make someone feel sad in the same way that they. Someone played video games six hours of the day.
- [74:58]
B
Whoa. But that's so like, reading a book.
- [75:00]
A
Is obviously going to be beneficial to you.
- [75:03]
B
So is solitaire. Solitaire is a game for your brain.
- [75:07]
A
Kinda.
- [75:09]
B
What do you mean?
- [75:10]
A
I mean, it's not that hard, right?
- [75:12]
B
Well, I.
- [75:14]
A
And you get.
- [75:15]
B
Maybe I'm stupid. Like, I don't think it's that easy. In fact, it's not easy at all. I don't win like most of the games.
- [75:22]
A
Right. But. But it's not like there's some crazy way to play it. Right.
- [75:27]
B
There's like strategy.
- [75:29]
A
Yeah. You kind of either get lucky with.
- [75:31]
B
I think there's a tiny bit of strategy.
- [75:33]
A
I think there's a tiny bit. I think people can be bad at it.
- [75:36]
B
Yeah.
- [75:37]
A
But I think you can be perfect at it pretty soon. Are you doing three card draw or one card draw?
- [75:43]
B
Three. It's hard.
- [75:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Three makes it a little more challenging.
- [75:46]
B
Yeah. I didn't even know that's what it was called. Three card draw or one card draw. I would.
- [75:53]
A
Rob, are you playing a lot of solitaire by yourself? I mean, my family was big card game people, so I've played a lot of solitaire. Yeah. And double solitaire and triple solitaire.
- [76:04]
B
Because that's with other people.
- [76:05]
A
Yeah. And you have the aces up top in the middle and you're kind of racing. Well, I stand corrected. It sounds like it's a pretty good time.
- [76:12]
B
It's.
- [76:13]
C
It does.
- [76:13]
A
I agree with him, though, that it does sound a little sad.
- [76:16]
B
This is upsetting.
- [76:18]
A
Yeah.
- [76:18]
B
It's because it's.
- [76:19]
A
You're right. If someone's watching tv, whatever. But minimally, or on their phone, if they watch tv, they could watch the same show as a friend and then they could chat about it. Whereas one's going to talk to you about your solitary game. It was just you. I mean, it's called solitaire.
- [76:34]
B
Yeah. Because it's one player.
- [76:36]
A
Yeah. Because it's solitary.
- [76:38]
B
Yeah. Because instead of just sitting and watching TV or being on your phone or.
- [76:44]
A
Even a book, you might.
- [76:45]
B
Why is a book better? So that's. Yeah.
- [76:47]
A
Because it's going to educate you potentially.
- [76:50]
B
Not necessarily, but sure. Maybe. Maybe all the ones I'm reading.
- [76:55]
A
Well, I do. I just read a bunch of biographies. I learn about a time period and I learn about an industry.
- [77:02]
B
It's very. In you. Okay. Cause, like, there's so much fiction.
- [77:07]
A
You're right. And. But those. So even you're on all fours. You read it. You talked about it a ton. A lot of your friends read it. You guys got going about it like it was this whole social event, reading that book. Whereas if you have solitary and someone else. Like, I played two and go. Did you. Did you win?
- [77:28]
B
I guess Rob and I just had a great conversation about.
- [77:31]
A
That was. Well, okay. That was.
- [77:34]
B
You know.
- [77:34]
A
Yeah, you guys did have that great conversation a second ago, so.
- [77:37]
B
Yeah, it was really good. And there's just.
- [77:41]
A
No one's ever gonna talk to you. You're not gonna bond with anybody over. With the exception of this great conversation. You guys just have bond over your solitaire game or the video game you played. Cause I wasn't playing the game with you.
- [77:53]
B
Yeah, but so that's also a you thing. Like, it's not about what I'm showing Netflix. It's not about. Everything I do isn't for a conversation.
- [78:08]
A
Right, right.
- [78:09]
B
To. It's to engage in my day.
- [78:13]
A
It is time for just you. That's nice.
- [78:16]
B
Yeah, that's lovely.
- [78:17]
A
Yeah. Oh, sorry, I was just being honest.
- [78:21]
B
I really. I'm shocked because I actually really thought you were going to be like, God, Eric, like, he just will say the craziest thing of that. That's so silly.
- [78:28]
A
But it does, but it does sound rob. When you just hear someone's playing a lot of solitaire, do you. Does it make you sad or happy or. Neither. Neither.
- [78:39]
B
That's the right answer. It doesn't need to make anyone happy. And it. And it doesn't need to make anyone sad. It's just something I've been doing. Like, I've also been watching Mr. Beast.
- [78:49]
A
Oh, you have?
- [78:50]
B
Mr. Beast Games. Beast Games.
- [78:53]
A
The Beast Games.
- [78:54]
B
Yeah.
- [78:54]
A
And you like it.
- [78:55]
B
Okay, so I'm so behind, obviously. Obviously. This. We're like months behind.
- [78:59]
A
Oh, yeah. Maybe a year. Yeah, yeah.
- [79:02]
B
But we, we. I had a dinner while you were gone. We missed you guys. But it was a friend pod. Dinner out, adults. So fun. And see, I have so much. I have so much interaction that I need some solitary time because otherwise the solitary time is work. So I need solitary time. That's not those things. That's play.
- [79:30]
A
Yeah.
- [79:30]
B
Yeah. So anyway.
- [79:32]
A
Or maybe I'll try it. It's been a long time since I played solitaire.
- [79:36]
B
I mean, and to be fair, like, I've been also playing with people. Like if I'm out with Jess or with Anna, sometimes we'll play together. Not duel. We'll like both be playing. Yeah, yeah, that's fun too.
- [79:49]
A
Now your phone is interesting. That's a good analogy. Because in general, I also think your phone's kind of a time suck. But it is. You do see thing. We all see the same things on Instagram, so that's also a bonding conversation thing.
- [80:05]
B
Oh my God. But it's bad for your brain.
- [80:08]
A
Uhhuh.
- [80:08]
B
And this is good for your brain.
- [80:10]
A
Yeah, potentially.
- [80:12]
B
Your brain is working.
- [80:14]
A
Uhhuh.
- [80:14]
B
You are thinking.
- [80:15]
A
That's true. Problem solving. Oh, please hold.
- [80:19]
B
I forgot to put. I'm reentering too. Okay. Anyway, so Beast Games.
- [80:26]
A
Yeah, tell me.
- [80:27]
B
So have you watched it?
- [80:28]
A
I tried. I couldn't do it.
- [80:31]
C
Really?
- [80:32]
A
Yeah, I don't.
- [80:33]
B
With the kids.
- [80:34]
A
I don't enjoy. Yeah, the kids watch the whole thing. Oh, I don't enjoy watching people have to make decision compromising decisions for money. Money. I don't, I don't like it. But I understand the appeal.
- [80:49]
B
Interesting.
- [80:50]
A
But I.
- [80:51]
B
Did you like Squid Game?
- [80:53]
A
Yes, but quite a bit.
- [80:55]
B
And Squid Game, the.
- [80:56]
A
The reality show? Yes.
- [80:58]
B
Yeah, it's the same. It's. I mean it literally is the same thing. Except there's more money on the table here. He. It's the most.
- [81:07]
A
Maybe do more dastardly things. Like it's almost every rounds you have to betray people. Right. Well.
- [81:12]
B
Well, ish. But that would. That happened on. On Squid games. Yeah, it did. What? Okay, so the beginning. Sorry, spoiler. I mean I'm not finished, so I can't really spoil very much. But the. Right. When they enter, there's like a thousand people there or something.
- [81:32]
A
Yeah. It's outrageous. The episode I saw where they're all standing in that grid.
- [81:35]
B
Yes. They're all standing in a grid. They. There's the chance to win $5 million in this game. The most they've ever given out on a game show. In addition, there's a side challenge that happens where they could win a $1.8 million island. Private island.
- [81:52]
A
Wow.
- [81:53]
B
Yes.
- [81:53]
A
It's probably more work than it's worth. But.
- [81:55]
B
So I won't spoil what happens there, but I have passed that part. So. Okay. At the beginning they have the opportunity when they first arrive, before the game even starts. Starts. There's $250,000. And he says if. If you want to go home now, go over there. If one person goes over there, they get all $250,000. If two people goes. They split it. If three, it starts splitting, you know.
- [82:25]
A
Yeah.
- [82:25]
B
And some people like enough people did it so that it was like $21,000 each. People got.
- [82:32]
A
Yeah.
- [82:32]
B
I was like, yes, I. That is definitely how I'm playing that game.
- [82:39]
A
I am a 21 grand and get out of there.
- [82:41]
B
Get out. You haven't wasted any you got. That's literally free money. You haven't had to do anything. You haven't had to hurt anyone or betray anyone or do anything physical.
- [82:50]
A
That's like 11ish people. Pick that or 12 or something. Okay.
- [82:55]
B
So I was.
- [82:56]
A
Yeah. There probably happened. Happy now a year later.
- [83:00]
B
Well, yeah, but then it depends because there are other opportunities throughout to make money. Like one guy ends up. I think this is a person who really want to. Obviously someone who wins $5 million. Great. Right. But. And the person who wins the island. Great. But there's still a lot of like stress and strife in that.
- [83:24]
A
Yeah.
- [83:25]
B
One guy leaves with $450,000 and. And kind of in this sort of easyish way. And I was like, that's. He really won.
- [83:35]
A
He won cuz he didn't have to go through much and he still got a big old Chunk of change.
- [83:39]
B
Yes.
- [83:40]
A
Yeah.
- [83:40]
B
But I would. I would definitely be the person who leaves first day, gets my money. Something's better than nothing.
- [83:47]
A
Uhhuh. Burden of hands worth two in a bush.
- [83:49]
B
Yes. Because also, like, the chances of nothing are so high.
- [83:53]
A
Yeah. Thousand to one.
- [83:55]
B
You got to get something. So that's how I would play. Would you. What would you do? Would you keep playing?
- [84:01]
A
No. I feel like I would try to get money midway through.
- [84:04]
B
Yeah.
- [84:05]
A
I'm a pessimist though. Right. I wouldn't think. I'm not the type that'd be like, I'm gonna win this whole thing. I don't have that mindset.
- [84:10]
C
Yeah.
- [84:11]
B
Which is so weird.
- [84:12]
A
I know.
- [84:12]
B
You're mixed messies.
- [84:13]
A
I know. I'm this weird mix of competitiveness, and I surrender easy.
- [84:17]
B
I feel like you would actually be very good in it. It. Because there's, like, mine, you know, there's like, brain stuff and there's physical challenges.
- [84:28]
A
Yeah.
- [84:30]
B
One of them, they. They're on a team and they, like, have to pull a monster truck, like, with their body.
- [84:34]
A
Yeah.
- [84:35]
B
And get it over speed bumps and stuff. I think you'd like that one.
- [84:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Physical. That sounds fun.
- [84:42]
B
There's like, sprinting anyway, so. But there is a lot of betrayal, and then there's a lot of self sacrifice. And it was making me think a lot about that. Like, the people who. They just walk away to help other people. There's also. And I'm. Because I don't think this is a spoiler enough. People have heard about this. There's a challenge where there's four lot. There's all these people, four lines of them, and those are the teams. And then the four teams have to pick a captain from each team to represent the team. Team, basically. And they go up and a number amount starts increasing on the clock. A money amount. And they. If they press the button, they get to keep that amount of money and stay in the game. But their whole team gets eliminated.
- [85:36]
A
Oh, boy.
- [85:38]
B
So they're picking people who are going to be like, no, I'm definitely. I promise I won't. I just won't press it.
- [85:46]
A
Yeah.
- [85:47]
B
And that's so much trust. How high do you think that dollar amount gets to?
- [85:54]
A
500,000.
- [85:55]
B
A million dollars. Nobody presses it.
- [85:58]
A
Nobody pressed it.
- [86:00]
B
I was so moved. And like. But then, like, later in the game, I'm like, then they leave.
- [86:09]
A
That's probably why I don't like the game.
- [86:11]
B
Okay.
- [86:12]
A
We're probably getting to the.
- [86:14]
B
Because you think it's unfair.
- [86:16]
A
No, I think. I know I would be selfish.
- [86:21]
B
Yeah.
- [86:22]
A
And I'd feel bad about being selfish. And when I watch it, it's just like.
- [86:26]
B
Like there are good people.
- [86:28]
A
All these opportunities, and I just picture me at 24.
- [86:32]
C
I know.
- [86:32]
A
And if I could have had a million dollars and these strangers got nothing and I'd already convinced myself they're not getting anything anyway, ways I know, like, that's probably why I don't like it. Because I know I would probably be selfish.
- [86:43]
B
But you probably wouldn't get picked.
- [86:46]
A
Probably not.
- [86:47]
B
Or because do you think you'd be the type. Because. Yes, you might be the type to press it, but would you be the type to mislead them? Exactly.
- [86:56]
A
No. So wherever my shadiness on the spectrum exists, I'm a six or whatever.
- [87:01]
B
Yeah.
- [87:01]
A
Or like, I. I think I'd be unhappy with my decisions, but also I wouldn't. I wouldn't have the full line thing. It's like, let's put it this way. I don't want to say a regret because I just love. I love everyone I ever had sex with. I feel grateful for it.
- [87:17]
B
Great.
- [87:18]
A
I do.
- [87:18]
B
Okay.
- [87:19]
A
So I don't really have regrets. Like, I want to take any back.
- [87:22]
B
Right.
- [87:23]
A
But I recognize some girls liked me a lot. And I hurt a lot of girls.
- [87:28]
B
Okay.
- [87:29]
A
And I hate them.
- [87:30]
B
That part, sure, that's nice.
- [87:31]
A
But then when I tell myself is, well, I've never been one that was like, I love you, I'm in love with you. I want to be with, like, I've never.
- [87:39]
B
But were you saying it with, like, your actions?
- [87:43]
A
That's where it gets confusing, is that I. We've already talked about this. I already have kind of a comfort level of talking about emotions and stuff. Intimacy that I do think was misleading. I think, think it felt unique for some people in a way that signaled we're in love.
- [88:00]
B
Right.
- [88:01]
A
I feel bad about that.
- [88:03]
C
Yeah.
- [88:04]
A
But also I feel good about the fact that I also was never deceptive. Like, a lot of dudes I know that told girls they loved them, told me, didn't have a girlfriend.
- [88:10]
B
Straight up lie.
- [88:11]
A
No. I told people if I had a girlfriend, I told people.
- [88:14]
B
But straight up lying is different than deception. Lying is a part.
- [88:19]
A
No, I didn't deceive either. I didn't act like I was more into them than I was, which a lot of guys did.
- [88:25]
C
Sure.
- [88:26]
A
Like, a lot of girls are like, he told me he loved me.
- [88:29]
B
Yeah. But that's.
- [88:29]
A
I never did that.
- [88:30]
B
That's lying. But if you with your actions, showed love.
- [88:36]
A
Well, if I'm just being me.
- [88:37]
B
Right.
- [88:39]
A
I'm being authentic to who I am. I can talk on the phone for three hours. Like.
- [88:43]
B
Yeah.
- [88:44]
A
For some guys, the only person they can talk on the phone for three hours too, is the person that they fall in love with.
- [88:49]
B
Right.
- [88:50]
A
Yeah. So I have, like, a mixed bag of guilt about that.
- [88:54]
C
Sure.
- [88:55]
B
I understand. So, but yeah. I don't think you would be in front of the team, I don't think, and be like, guys, I, I, I'm.
- [89:02]
A
The most honest person here. I'm so selfless.
- [89:05]
B
Never. It doesn't matter if that thing gets to $5 million. I'm not pressing it. You wouldn't say that.
- [89:10]
A
No.
- [89:11]
B
Right.
- [89:11]
A
No. Unless I really believed it. And maybe I could. Maybe I could fall in love with everyone there. There.
- [89:17]
B
Right.
- [89:18]
A
The way you do on a film set or something.
- [89:20]
B
But do you think you, you would believe it and then get up there and be like, oh, no. Like, I have again.
- [89:26]
A
I was like, I was stealing stuff. I was, I had bad. I felt in entire.
- [89:35]
B
I know that was, that's the other thing that's interesting is some of these people are like, I'm meant to be here. It's, it's working out for me. And I'm like. Because all those people left on their own volition, like, it's not you're meant to be here. Is people sacrifice for you. And now you're here.
- [89:51]
A
Yeah.
- [89:52]
B
And I don't like that. That there's no, like, wow. A lot of people gave up a lot of opportunities for me to be standing here.
- [90:01]
A
Yeah. And I guess I feel like I've only stayed as moral as I have with a lot of effort. And I just don't need any situations tempting my morals. I'm just too insecure about my own moral compass. Compass. Then.
- [90:15]
B
Yeah.
- [90:16]
A
Not now. I could play well.
- [90:17]
B
Yeah. Obviously now.
- [90:18]
A
Yeah.
- [90:19]
B
That we, yeah. We can't think about when you have means. Like, obviously. That's a different scenario.
- [90:27]
A
I think about this all the time, though. It really is. Like, I don't think anyone really even knows who they are in a sense. Like, I am, I'm the product of so much good fortune. I think a lot of people would describe me as super generous. I was also super greedy and wanted money so fucking bad, I would have stole. So in this abundance, I've been able to help a lot of people.
- [90:53]
B
Yeah.
- [90:53]
A
And I'm a version of myself now that I'm quite proud of. But I have to be honest about. I'm in a situation where it's a lot Easier for me to do that now.
- [91:03]
B
Exactly.
- [91:03]
A
So, like, that's another thing. It's not really fair to judge the people in the situations who are really desperate.
- [91:09]
B
No, I know. That's why this is complicated. That's why it's so interesting. It's like, I don't really blame a lot of the people who are. I mean, they're like, I'm here to win. And, like, I understand that. That's why they're there. They're there for a game, but there's also, like, invisible lines that are just getting crossed. Like, they're these two brothers that. There's this one game where they're broken up into threes, and then they have to go in this cube and decide one person has to leave.
- [91:37]
A
Okay.
- [91:37]
B
Or they all leave within five hours. They have to decide this. Right. And in one of the cubes, there is these two brothers and, like, young girl, and they're being. They're so manipulative. So manipulative and horrible to her and, like, bullying and bad. And I was like, I hate you guys.
- [92:00]
A
Yeah.
- [92:00]
B
And I understand you're there to win, but this is up. Like, there's. There are lines.
- [92:05]
A
Yeah. I guess what I'm saying is. And this show is not. I'm not in judgment of this show.
- [92:11]
B
Oh, no, I know. Yeah.
- [92:12]
A
But overall, I think people are pretty critical of people in rough situations that have never been in those situations, and that's a little bit of a sensitive spot for me. Right.
- [92:22]
B
I fully agree.
- [92:24]
A
Like, when people are judging how people are acting in the fudgeing, white trash neighborhood or in here, I'm like, yeah, you just. You're not there. You really got to be there to.
- [92:33]
B
Yeah. I absolutely agree. I think over time, through hearing people's experiences and having my own, like, I don't. There used to be. I used to feel like, oh, there are things I would absolutely never do. I would just never do them. It would never happen.
- [92:51]
A
Yeah.
- [92:52]
B
And now I don't think that. I think there. There are scenarios in which I would do anything, and knowing that is helpful because it gives grace to everyone else's doing.
- [93:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so just when I see a situation that's been constructed to test people who are.
- [93:09]
B
Yeah.
- [93:10]
A
Vulnerable. It's hard for me to enjoy it.
- [93:12]
B
I understand. But there is, like, there is real. There are people. Yeah. That are like, I'm going to go. Like, I'm going to go. I'm going to do it for the. These people.
- [93:23]
A
Uhhuh.
- [93:24]
B
And it's. That's beautiful. Like, and it is a sweet reminder that we can make those hard decisions. We can make the decision to be selfless.
- [93:39]
A
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you did.
- [93:51]
B
One of the guys who didn't click the million, he was like, maybe going to. Did he get kicked off or maybe he was about to get kicked off. It was whatever. Something. And Mr. Beast was like, do you wish you had taken the million?
- [94:07]
A
Yeah.
- [94:08]
B
And he was like, I was happy with who I was before I was offered that I'll be happy afterwards.
- [94:14]
A
And I was like, well, that's a great attitude, but heartbreaking.
- [94:19]
B
I know. Then I really wanted him to have a million.
- [94:21]
C
I know.
- [94:22]
A
I just want everyone there to get a million doll.
- [94:24]
B
I know. But. Yeah. And also just people. People are there for a lot of different reasons. There's like, horrible sad stories. There's just like, I'm here to play this game, which is, I think, fine.
- [94:39]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [94:40]
B
Like, then that becomes tricky. It's like, do they not get to. Because this other person has a.
- [94:44]
A
Like to trigger any of your.
- [94:47]
B
Until now.
- [94:48]
A
Oh, why? I. I can see where.
- [94:51]
B
Oh, yeah. It's like this single person versus a family.
- [94:53]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. That's a zone for you.
- [94:57]
B
Yeah. That's not fair.
- [94:58]
A
Okay.
- [94:59]
B
So I don't like that at all. Anyway, it's interesting.
- [95:07]
A
It is.
- [95:07]
B
It's an interesting thought. Like, human experiment.
- [95:10]
A
Well, I'm swirling with all this because, again, as I've updated you several different times, I have really enjoyed being somewhere else for two months and really observing how everyone does everything. I've been finding it endlessly fascinating.
- [95:23]
B
Yeah.
- [95:23]
A
I mean, really feel like I'm doing an ethnography on.
- [95:26]
B
Yeah, it's fascinating.
- [95:27]
A
And I got into a fun conversation over dinner with Hayes, Huey's wife, about kids, and I'm like, look, I. I see that kids are raised differently here in the south, and I also see the value of it. And I also have a different kind of philosophy.
- [95:52]
B
What do you think the philosophy is there?
- [95:53]
A
Well, like, there. Most of the kids all say. They'll say Ms. Kristen or Ms. Right. You always say Ms. Or Mr. So that's like deference and respect. Respect for elders, which is lovely. That's a great thing. I think I'm really good at assessing what a potential outcome is, is that I have to take very seriously and work backwards from that. I think I'm a good reverse engineer. So I'm like, look, I know, Lincoln. I'm the same way. It was a big thing for me that my vote wasn't the same as everyone else's. I didn't understand why my being younger meant I had less value in any situation. It was very hard for me. And when my dad wanted to break that spirit of mine, I just wrote him off.
- [96:35]
B
Right.
- [96:35]
A
And it was so easy for me. It was hard for him and super easy for me because I'm so determined. And if you fuck with me and try to tell me I can't be who I'm gonna be, I'll just. I'll go nuclear.
- [96:46]
B
Right.
- [96:46]
A
It's a character defect. I don't like that I'm this way.
- [96:49]
B
But again, again, again, when we've talked about this before, and I do wanna say that. That you're not like your dad. Your dad left you. There are lots of reasons for you to have a skepticism of. Of his authority. Like, you are not like that.
- [97:03]
A
That's true. But I think I would have been the same even if he was better. Right. Like, I think.
- [97:12]
B
I don't know. We don't know.
- [97:13]
A
I think if I get it in my head, you're trying to prevent me from having the experience I deserve to have here in my autonomy to choose my experience. If I think you're standing in the way of that, then it's not hard for me to be away from you.
- [97:31]
B
It's so interesting, though, because. Yeah. And, like, it might be a disservice to getting along with other people. Like, if it's just, like, it's my way and I'm going to do it. Not going to listen.
- [97:46]
A
Like, this is a character defect. This is not a. This is not a virtue of mine. I'm. I know that this is a character defect.
- [97:52]
B
Okay.
- [97:53]
A
No, my head. I. It sounds different than you just framed it right for me, which is. Is like, I'm not going to ask you to be anything you're not. And in respect, you're not going to ask me to be anything I'm not. Right. Like, I. I think I have an ethic in my mind that is very defendable.
- [98:09]
B
Right. But there's cooperation and there's. There's sacr. I mean, there's life isn't just. We both exist in our. In our bubbles as we are.
- [98:19]
A
Like, there's compromise. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [98:22]
B
We're not on islands.
- [98:23]
A
And you have to really trust that the person you're compromising with has your best interest in mind. Whatever this is. Character defect. Yeah.
- [98:31]
C
Yeah.
- [98:31]
A
This is not a virtue of mine.
- [98:33]
B
Right. This is interesting. Yeah.
- [98:34]
A
But I. I think Lincoln has that ability, and I think her And I are both. We have the same condition which is like we both think we have the best plan. We've thought this out for a long time and here it is. And isn't that great? Great. So I was like, I'm just working backwards from reality which is if I try to do this parenting style, call everyone Ms. And Mr. Act this way. Go up there. No. You know all this stuff.
- [99:02]
B
Yeah.
- [99:02]
A
I just won't have a relationship with her. She'll just, she'll just write me off. She won't. She's not going to bend. I'm not going to bend or break this girl. Nor am I going to try to. I now look, it's totally different calculus with Delta. I don't have those similarities with her where it's problematic. So I just go, do you think you as a southern kid who acted that way did anything different than I did as a southern kid? Did you drink and did you hook up with boys? Do you do all the things you weren't supposed to do? And I'm like, yeah, everyone does the same shit. I don't want my kids to lie about it. Yeah, that's. That's it. All I'm after is like I have some sense of what's really going on and they feel safe to let me in on that. And so it's a trade off. It's all a trade off. Yeah. My kids are probably more difficult at times in public. Like they're going to fight back and I'm going to have to hear their case in court. But hopefully they're not. They don't feel like they've got to hide stuff from me and pretend they're stuck. Someone other than who they are.
- [100:10]
B
Yeah.
- [100:11]
A
And I don't think one's better than the other. It's just like whatever trade offs you are comfortable with.
- [100:16]
B
Yeah.
- [100:18]
A
And that's the one I'm comfortable with. And it's all interesting. I just, I think it's all I'm just very aware of. Like I think so often people want to say this way's better or that way's better or they do it wrong there or they do it right here. And I just look at it like everything's got trade offs. Everything's got. There's a ton of stuff that comes with that. That's awesome. I see.
- [100:39]
C
See it.
- [100:40]
B
Yeah.
- [100:40]
A
It's enviable. And then there's other stuff that I don't want and I don't. It's not worth that cost. But I don't know.
- [100:47]
B
It's Interesting. And everyone's triggered in different ways by the different options out there, I guess. But, like, I don't like having to call adults Mr. And Mrs. And that type of thing at all. Because it's also teaching kids that the adults are always right, that they, like, they just. Just by the fact that they're adults, they deserve.
- [101:16]
A
That's my other baggage with it.
- [101:17]
B
Right.
- [101:18]
A
Which is like, no. The result. The adults. I knew quite a few of them should not have been respected or trusted or listened to or obeyed.
- [101:25]
B
Well. Right.
- [101:25]
A
So once you've had that experience, you're like, that's not really a good policy.
- [101:29]
B
Yeah. When you get into a scenario where it's like, you learn that all these adults are hurting children and they're teaching the kids to be like, yes, sir. Like, that's a problem. You need to also be pretty clear that not all people are. Deserve to be listened to or respect. But also, like, to me, politeness. Politeness is a big Southern thing. And I do think that's really important.
- [101:57]
A
I love it.
- [101:57]
B
I think it's so important.
- [102:00]
A
Yeah. Their little kids are always like, yes, ma', am, thank you, ma'. Am. You know, And I love it.
- [102:03]
B
And they don't even have. But to me, politeness doesn't have to do with, like, the authority. It's just like we're. We're generally gonna be nice to people.
- [102:12]
A
Yeah. We're gonna be civil.
- [102:14]
B
We're gonna be civil because it's hard. Yeah.
- [102:16]
A
For everyone to live together.
- [102:17]
B
Just gonna be civil and polite. Like, when someone is serving you a meal, you say, thank you. That's a nice thing that happens. Like, the manners. Basic manners. And politeness to me is much different than, like, you should respect your elders or you need to listen to everything they say and take it as the. You know, like, that's a different thing.
- [102:40]
A
Yeah.
- [102:41]
B
But it gets convoluted.
- [102:42]
A
It does. It does. Again, there's nice sides and then there's other sides where I'm like, yeah, well, you know, time will tell how all these.
- [102:51]
B
How everyone ends up.
- [102:52]
A
Yeah.
- [102:52]
B
Everyone will end up great. I mean, everyone's fine. Yeah. Everyone will be fine.
- [102:56]
A
But I'm loving it.
- [102:58]
B
Yeah.
- [102:59]
A
Also, so I down there say yes, ma' am a lot. And yes, sir, and I like it.
- [103:04]
B
Okay.
- [103:04]
A
It kind of. This is the other reality. It's like the thing you and I have debated in the past about, like, asking your future father in law for permission. It's like, I get that the premise is flawed for sure. And then I know the result of having done that, which is lovely. And I think a lot of the things fall under that category where it's just like. It's confusing. Like, do I. I. Do I reject the premise, or am I rejecting the outcome of it? Because those are both valid ways. It's contian or utilitarianism.
- [103:37]
B
It's like, well, the outcome for you. You like the outcome for you and you like the outcome for her.
- [103:42]
A
Yeah. I can only judge it from me when I call the woman man am at the gas station. I like the outcome, you know.
- [103:52]
B
Yeah. For you. Yeah.
- [103:53]
A
Yeah.
- [103:54]
B
But. But yeah. Because she seemed seemingly liked it. Right. Yeah. So that's like. But the premise of the. Asking the parents for the daughter's hand in marriage is about the daughter's reaction. So if, like, if. For me, it's. If. If I am gonna. If someone's gonna propose to me, I want them to ask me.
- [104:20]
A
Yeah. And they'll have to.
- [104:22]
B
What do you mean?
- [104:23]
A
You can't get married without asking.
- [104:24]
B
No, no, no, ask me. Hey, is it important to you that I talk to your.
- [104:30]
A
Oh, not ask you to marry.
- [104:31]
B
Exactly. That I talk to your dad or how. How do you. How do you want me to go about this?
- [104:37]
A
Yeah.
- [104:37]
B
And then I'd be like, not important. Important to them or me.
- [104:41]
A
Yeah.
- [104:42]
B
And definitely, if you're gonna do it, which you. Sure. If you want. If that's important to you, fine. But you better talk to both of them. Everyone's gonna have their own rules for it. And it's just asking the woman who you're marrying what she wants.
- [104:57]
A
Right.
- [104:57]
B
As opposed to these men just decide making decisions on their own. That's the. That's where the premise is faulty.
- [105:04]
A
Yeah. You don't like the notion of the. It's the father's right to give the daughter to a man. Man.
- [105:10]
B
Yeah. And that.
- [105:11]
A
And that is.
- [105:11]
B
And husband's right to be like. Like I'm want.
- [105:17]
A
Yeah. So that's the premise. Right. So that's what I'm saying. The premise is flawed.
- [105:22]
B
Exactly.
- [105:23]
A
But the act itself isn't. Will you give me permission to marry your daughter? Because we both know I will whether you say yes or no. So it's not. I'm not really asking permission. Permission. What I'm doing is saying I'm joining your family and I'm coming with a big act of humility. And that's lovely. That's a wonderful thing for someone entering a family to do.
- [105:49]
C
Yeah.
- [105:49]
B
We've just discussed this. Like, I. I mean, I just really don't understand why the mother wouldn't be involved in that is like wild. Like, if, if someone wants to marry, they can have a separate conversation with you. Like a man on man, fun conversation. Yeah, but I' entering your family is the whole family. And like, it should, it should. There should be an equal respect for the mother in that scenario too. I. I think personally and again, that's me. So I would make that clear. So all I would need is my husband to one just know me and know. Like, that's right. That's what she would want. Or just ask like, hey, if I end up, if we end up doing this whole thing, like, I would like to talk to your dad. And then I would say, great, you can do that. I would really like if you talk to both of them and then you can also talk to my dad. I don't know. But I just think the woman needs to have a say in how that goes down. And if I didn't, if my, if my husband went to my dad, I mean, I wouldn't, honestly, I wouldn't like, be mad. But also, when I told my dad this, he was like, this is crazy.
- [107:12]
A
He didn't want anything to do.
- [107:14]
B
It's like, why would they do that for him? And he said, he was like, you need to like me. Monica needs to do that. He was like, you need to come to us and say, oh, hey. I'm like, this is serious with this person. We're probably gonna get married. Not. Can I. There's no. They. They are.
- [107:34]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [107:35]
B
Illusion that they.
- [107:36]
A
I don't think anyone is, you know.
- [107:38]
B
No, no. But they really are not. Like, they are not like, you owe us that. They're just like, you're our kid. You are the one that needs to communicate with us.
- [107:47]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [107:48]
B
Which was good for me to know too, because I could see me being like, oh, yeah, we got engaged last month. They'd be upset.
- [107:56]
A
They married last week.
- [107:58]
B
Yeah, we're married. Yeah. Just different ways of being. So. So traditions are cultural and they're different and nothing's right or wrong. Yeah, it is. To me, what's right or wrong is whether the people think it's right or wrong. That's at the end of the day, like, that's right.
- [108:15]
A
If everyone enjoyed the whole thing, then great. Yeah.
- [108:19]
B
Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, I'm going to keep watching beast games. I'm going to keep playing solitaire.
- [108:25]
A
Okay, great.
- [108:26]
B
Happily.
- [108:27]
A
Okay, great.
- [108:28]
B
And.
- [108:29]
A
And I'm going to be excited for you that you're playing solitaire. It's a Real good activity. It' for your brain. Yeah. And you're enjoying it.
- [108:35]
B
I am.
- [108:36]
A
Yeah. You're not very good at it.
- [108:37]
B
But it's just that I miss it. It's like, wait, I could have moved this over a long time ago.
- [108:43]
A
So you are seeing some room for improvement.
- [108:45]
C
Yeah.
- [108:46]
A
Okay.
- [108:47]
B
And you know me, I like to be the best version of myself.
- [108:49]
A
That's right. And it's. I'm impressed you're sticking with Mahjong because you're. You're losing pretty.
- [108:56]
B
No, Mahjong is not a game like that. Like, you aren't going to win everybody game. If you win once, it's like great.
- [109:04]
A
Ever.
- [109:05]
B
It's hard.
- [109:06]
A
But you were just beat by a 10 year old repeatedly, three times. Yeah. Yeah.
- [109:10]
B
That speaks more to her than it does to anyone.
- [109:12]
A
That's impressive.
- [109:13]
B
Yeah. Very impressive. All right, let's do some facts.
- [109:17]
A
Okay.
- [109:17]
B
All right. This is for Nancy. Twins.
- [109:20]
A
Oh, what a fascinating episode.
- [109:23]
B
Twins. We're never going to be sick of talking about twins.
- [109:26]
A
Twins for the wins. Yeah. This won't be our last twins episode. I'm predicting.
- [109:31]
B
We love this. There really aren't very many facts. Again, because she provided them. I. I'm gonna like, you know, we talk about the Olsens. She feels like they're identical. You feel like they're identical. But I. I am obligated to say that they believe they're fraternal. It's on the Internet that they're fraternal. Obviously they haven't done any DNA tests.
- [109:57]
A
They have said they never did DNA tests, which means they actually just don't know.
- [110:01]
B
They don't know. So that's what I'm gonna like. We don't know.
- [110:05]
A
Right. They don't know. But the twin expert and I know.
- [110:09]
B
No.
- [110:10]
A
And she's an expert and I dated one of them. So I feel like we're pretty qualified.
- [110:15]
B
No, you're not. Nope. You're not. I do think they look so similar. I am gonna give you guys the.
- [110:24]
A
You never knew when they were babies before nurture got involved. It's not like you, anyone in the world ever knew when they swapped them out on that show. You can't swap out fraternal twins and.
- [110:37]
B
Get that kind of consistency, but sometime maybe you can. Sometimes.
- [110:41]
A
They're definitely identical. I agree with her.
- [110:43]
B
Okay, well, that's not definitely because this is a fact check and I'm here to say we don't know.
- [110:48]
A
Okay.
- [110:49]
B
Okay. She quickly mentioned something about men being better at spatial awareness, which they are. A common test used to assess Spatial ability involves mentally rotating 3D objects. Studies consistently show that, on average, men perform better on these tasks than women. However, this doesn't apply to all spatial.
- [111:09]
A
Tasks, just the important ones.
- [111:11]
B
Okay. For example, some studies showed no significant difference between men and women on tasks involving spatial navigation or spatial working memory. There's also. She also said women. Women are. Women perform better conversely on verbal tasks. I didn't look that up.
- [111:30]
A
I was brainstorming about the difference between men and women a little bit because, of course, as we had guessed, Kristen and the other mom were like, really bonding over whatever new food everyone's supposed to eat. And, you know, it's like women really, they find out about quinoa about a year before men do, and then they, you know, I forget what. What this. Oh, Carmen. Car. Carminum, Carmen.
- [111:56]
B
Cardamom.
- [111:57]
A
Cardamom. Cardamom. There. You know, they're going on about cardamom, Blake and I like, what the hell is cardamom? But I was thinking, cardamom's been around.
- [112:05]
B
For so long, it's an. It's actually used in Indian food constantly.
- [112:10]
A
Yeah. And it's having a resurgence right now. You can get it in a lot of drinks and stuff. It's not. It's not like it was an. An add on in the 80s, but now it's a pretty popular add on. And I was thinking, evolutionarily, it does make so much sense because when you live in an area and you're hunting, you're hunting the same three animals every single day. It doesn't change. But there are so many seasonal berries that are in bloom, Then there's seasonal tubers that are in bloom, then seasonal fruit. It makes sense that women were way more on the look, lookout for whatever was new and in season, whereas guys are just like, I killed deer. That's what I do. I don't ever have. I'm never going to be killing, you know, a unicorn. There's not going to be any new animals that pop up this season. This is like, this is what I hunt, period. Done thinking. I don't know. I was just thinking about. That has to be in the mix of explanation how all the women always know all the new things and all the dudes are like, what? What is the thing?
- [113:15]
B
Interesting. Interesting. It's also hard, though, because women talk to other women. Like, so some women are into it and then they're spreading the information to other women and then they know, like, I don't know that ever. All the women are seeking that out. So, like, Kristen is constantly Seeking that out. Like, she's, like, always, like, she's a gatherer.
- [113:40]
A
I mean, she's like a textbook gatherer. She's, like, surveying the land. What's out there, what could be better, what's more nutritious, what, you know, she's on. She's on the gather.
- [113:50]
B
Yeah, but she. On the scale. Like, you know, she'll send us the girls stuff about those things or like, when the air was bad. Like, lots of stuff about the air. Like she's on top of that. Or she's really. She cares a lot about that. It's just a scale, I guess, like, and.
- [114:09]
A
No. Right. I mean, there's a huge spectrum among women, for sure. And then there's a huge, huge scale among men. But just on the average, those gaps are pretty enormous, you know?
- [114:19]
B
Yeah, for sure. Cardamom is a good spice used in Indian food since the beginning of time. My mom cooks with it a lot. It's strong. It's a strong spice. It's also used in some sweet things. Like cardamom buns is a thing. And that's sweet. And then, like rice puddings.
- [114:40]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [114:42]
B
So she mentioned a toothpaste that these two separated twins both use. That was random Vatty make them. It's an herbal toothpaste.
- [114:52]
A
Oh. If anyone wants to rest, anyone wants to try it. Very. Wants to be third member of this twin pair.
- [115:00]
B
Yeah, it's herbal. I looked up where snakes are the most prevalent countries with most snakes species. Mexico. Oh, most snake species. That's right.
- [115:11]
A
Not overall volume.
- [115:13]
B
It never, never understands me. This is under World Population Review. Anyway, Mexico has the most species, then Brazil, then Indonesia, then India, then Colombia, then a lot more. But I won't go to 100 because I know how you feel.
- [115:32]
A
Okay.
- [115:35]
B
And that's it. It's just. Twins are interesting. What can we say?
- [115:39]
A
Ah, they sure are fascinating. Identical copy of yourself. Would you want one or not?
- [115:44]
B
Yeah. Well, wow.
- [115:46]
A
I. I don't want one in theory.
- [115:49]
B
I want one because I want to know what it feels like to be that connected with someone. Like you. In the womb with someone connected. But, yeah, in practice, I probably don't. I probably would feel competitive. But maybe you don't, because you. You just love them so much.
- [116:09]
A
It wouldn't be about my relationship with my twin as much as I'd be envious of having to split my attention with the rest of the world all the time.
- [116:18]
B
What do you mean?
- [116:19]
A
Like, there's two of us. So whatever amount of attention exists for this version of a human Human. I'm splitting that in half. Does that make sense?
- [116:28]
B
Yeah. You might be a lot more subdued. You'd have no choice.
- [116:31]
A
Yeah, I would be like, I guess I'm not going to be able to be unique. There's already another one of me. You know, I have terminal uniqueness. That's why I'm saying it wouldn't be.
- [116:39]
B
A good, but it would actually be a good. It would be good. It would be like the cure. But also the irony is that. The irony is that unique. It is the most unique to have a twin. Identical twin.
- [116:57]
A
Yeah. I guess you get a bump from being a freak show. You know, like, people are gonna be more interested in you for that aspect. But I have a twin. His name's Aaron. That's. He's a good twin.
- [117:09]
B
Okay. Yeah. There's a really funny episode of Friends. Phoebe has a twin. Phoebe lives with Rachel. Okay. And Rachel is buying a bunch of stuff from Pottery Barn. But Phoebe doesn't like the stuff from Pottery Barn. She wants her stuff to be unique and vintage, one of a kind. And so they go over to Ross's house to watch a TV movie or something. And he also has a piece from Pottery Barn that Rachel had. She had lied and told Phoebe that it was unique and vintage and from the days of old. And so she freaks out and she's like, you have to cover this up. Like, Phoebe will see it. And she thinks ours is. Is unique. He said, oh, it's because she's a twin. Twins are so weird. And she's like, no, she's not weird. She just wants her stuff to be one of a kind. And he says, you know what's not one of a kind? A twin.
- [118:09]
A
Yes, he's right.
- [118:10]
B
It's very funny.
- [118:12]
C
Kind of.
- [118:12]
B
God, it's a great. That one's called the one with the apothecary table. If anyone wants to watch that. I believe it's season maybe six.
- [118:20]
A
Okay, great. Everyone can look that episode up.
- [118:23]
B
Yeah, that's it.
- [118:27]
A
Okay. Love you. Loved her. Love twins.
- [118:30]
B
Yeah, she was so cute.
- [118:31]
A
Love twins.
- [118:32]
B
We love twins. All right, bye. Love you.
- [118:35]
A
Love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondry.com survey.