Transcript

Dax Shepard (0:00)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Lily Padman (0:05)

Hi.

Dax Shepard (0:06)

Today we have an award winning investigative journalist. He writes for the New Yorker on staff. Patrick Radden Keefe is a writer for the New Yorker. He's also written a couple of, well, several incredible books. Rogues, Empire of Pain, say Nothing, the Snakehead. And he has a new book out now that we're talking about. London Falling. A mysterious death in a gilded city. In a family's search for truth. I fell in love with Patrick.

Lily Padman (0:31)

He's fantastic and he's such a good writer. I loved Empire of Pain.

Dax Shepard (0:36)

Yeah. He's also stunning to look at. He is a handsome man and very charismatic. And then he has stumbled upon this absolutely mind blowing story that took place in London. So please enjoy. Patrick Radden Keefe this message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Checking out online Apple Pay makes it simple. Apple Pay is accepted on millions of websites and app. Just look for the Apple Pay button almost anywhere you do your online shopping. When you tap the Apple Pay button to check out, you don't have to worry about filling out any forms with your shipping address or payment method or for me, my billing address. Instead, use your pre saved information and checkout in seconds. What a joy. Need to make a change? You can easily review and change your card information and shipping details right in the payment sheet. Once you are ready, just double click the side button, authenticate your purchase with face ID and you're done. Whether you're shopping online for everyday needs or treating yourself, skip the hassle. Shop with Apple Pay terms apply. Thank you to our presenting sponsor. Grubhub Gold Days is here which feels like a dangerous time to be ordering food because suddenly everyone in your life is very interested in what you're eating. Grubhub plus members are getting nonstop savings all month long and if you're not a member yet, you can join for just 99 cents a month for six months. That's a 90% discount off of the usual price. Grubhub plus members auto renews and terms apply. Sign up now in the app or at grubhub.com/gold.

Patrick Radden Keefe (2:29)

It's so good to me.

Lily Padman (2:30)

Yeah.

Dax Shepard (2:30)

Great to meet you Patrick. Okay, good.

Patrick Radden Keefe (2:32)

Summary

Armchair Expert: Patrick Radden Keefe (May 6, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode of "Armchair Expert," Dax Shepard and Lily Padman sit down with renowned investigative journalist and author Patrick Radden Keefe. The conversation dives into Keefe’s latest book, "London Falling," which explores the mysterious death of a young man in London and his family’s quest for answers. Through personal stories, cultural observations, and reflections on the nature of ambition and parental influence, the discussion offers both a behind-the-scenes look at Keefe’s career and a nuanced exploration of contemporary issues around wealth, identity, and parenting.

Main Themes

The intersection of personal ambition, societal pressure, and family legacies
London as a city transformed by global wealth and status
The fragility of identity and the consequences of reinvention
Parenting, grief, and humility in the face of tragedy
The impact of new technology and social media on youth and culture

Detailed Breakdown

1. Patrick Radden Keefe’s Background & Path to Journalism

Dorchester Roots: Keefe discusses growing up in Dorchester, Boston’s largest and most diverse neighborhood. “Ethnically diverse, very socioeconomically diverse...a weird, wonderful place” (03:01).
Family Influence: His father was an urban planner involved in Boston’s “Big Dig,” while his mother was a philosophy professor examining the philosophy of psychiatry. Both encouraged open intellectual debate and skepticism (05:51, 07:15).
Circuitous Path to the New Yorker: Keefe studied history at Columbia, then international relations at Cambridge and LSE (“this kind of bullshit degree” — 07:58). His real goal: always to write for The New Yorker (10:06-10:16).
Persistence and Rejection: Keefe shares the story of pitching The New Yorker for years, framing his first rejection letter from 1998: “My first rejection letter for an article...is framed in my home office” (12:50).
Law School as a Backup and Social Status Marker: “I wasn’t totally confident I was good enough...I wanted a backup” and was also sucked into “chasing the next brass ring” (13:26-14:00).
Reporting and Humility: “If you want to succeed in this line of work, you need to learn how to metabolize rejection… Most of the job is getting rejected” (15:33).

2. The Journalist’s Journey

Breaking In: Published in The New Yorker in 2006, after years of freelancing and briefly working at the Pentagon.
New Yorker’s Value: “The New Yorker turned out to be so much better than I had even imagined” (19:16).
Peers and Mentors: “Now my new book, when it was in draft, there’s five or six of my colleagues I sent it to and they’re the best. Not everybody has the same fixations I do, but for somebody like me, this is just all I could ever ask” (21:19).

3. Major Works and Approaches

"Say Nothing" (2018)

On the IRA, the Troubles, and the complexities of political violence.
Won the National Book Critics Circle Award and a Peabody.
“One of the things that’s great...is you get to stand your pieces up beside the best” (19:50).

"Wind of Change" Podcast (2020)

Investigates the rumor that the CIA wrote the Scorpions’ "Wind of Change".
“When you look at the history of the CIA, they were doing all kinds of stuff in culture...” (25:16).

"Empire of Pain" (2021)

Chronicles the Sackler family and the opioid crisis.

"London Falling" (2026)

Focuses on the mysterious death of Zach Brettler, a Jewish teenager in London who convincingly posed as the child of a Russian oligarch. Explores London’s transformation by global wealth, elite schools, and the pressures these environments place on young people.
“For me, the story of Zach is great and intriguing and I must get the answers. But what I’m learning about London, what I’m learning about the Thames, what I’m learning about the influx of all the money—that’s the meat for me.” — Dax Shepard (26:24).

4. Deep Dive: "London Falling" and the Case of Zach Brettler

Context & Key Figures

Zach Brettler’s Background: Son of successful, educated Jewish parents, both from families of Holocaust survivors. Grew up in affluence, but not at the “oligarch” level (34:21).
Sibling Rivalry and Schooling: Older brother Joe gets into a prestigious school; Zach is rejected and attends Mill Hill, a school known as a refuge for those not offered places elsewhere but is now populated by children of billionaires and oligarchs (37:48).
Identity Formation Through Exclusion: Not getting into the same school as his brother becomes a subtle turning point: “A moment of embarrassment and failure” (37:40).
Encountering Extreme Wealth: At Mill Hill, Zach is suddenly on the lower end of the “have-mores,” confronting spectacular affluence in classmates (38:22). Dax: “This is a very extreme case of the haves and the have-mores” (41:48).
Adopting the Oligarch Persona: Driven by feelings of inadequacy, envy, and the intoxicating proximity to wealth, Zach begins lying about his origins, claiming his mother is dead, or his father is an arms dealer—ultimately posing as the heir of a Russian oligarch (48:22).

London's Background and Wealth Transformation

Dockland Decline to Financial Hub: Post-1980s, London “reinvents itself” as a money town. Keefe notes the impact of Thatcher-era deregulation and foreign capital, especially Russian and Asian fortunes pouring into Mayfair and private clubs (39:35-41:20).
Money and Morality: Discussion of how modern London’s “new money” ethos has erased the old upper-class British decorum and modesty. “Now it’s all new money and there’s no shame about it, in fact, a kind of pride in it” (43:22).

The Death and Investigation

Entanglements: Zach connects with Akbar Shamji, an elite businessman with his own secrets, and “Indian Dave,” a notorious gangster (60:15, 63:43).
All Pretending: “It turns out all three of them are pretending to be something they’re not—it’s like the Spider-Man meme” (62:31).
The Night of the Death: Zach jumps from a balcony into the Thames, as captured by an MI6 security camera. The story initially told by "Indian Dave" doesn’t add up. Zach’s parents, desperate for answers, undertake their own investigation (68:39-73:15).
Family’s Experience: The Brettlers, unknowingly, uncover Zach’s dual life after his disappearance, becoming their own detectives when the official investigation falters. As Keefe observes, “They have to become detectives themselves” (73:39).

Intergenerational Echoes and Grief

The Brettler family’s story is one of resilience, echoing the reinvention and survival of Zach’s Holocaust-survivor grandparents. “When I looked into my father’s eyes, I never saw barbed wire, I only saw a loving father” (75:49).
The theme of choosing life and resilience in grief, “You can hold both of those things in” (76:12).
Parenting humility: “If anything, it just teaches me a kind of humility...There is a limit to what you’re able to do” (78:50).

Cultural Commentary & Broader Reflections

Inequity and Identity in Modern London

London’s shift from manufacturing to money, and the psychological toll of being surrounded by “have-mores.”
The normalization of conspicuous consumption and the erosion of old-money humility (43:22).

Media & Technology

The influence of social media: “If you grow up on these apps and you’re an adolescent, your ability to draw a fine dividing line between real life and fantasy life, it’s a little blurry” (47:49).
Digital anonymity and disconnection: “There’s a kind of fundamental decency in terms of the way you treat other people that has been devalued to some degree...Everyone’s interacting on screens is part of it” (80:10).
Hope for future recalibration: “Maybe we’re just in that phase now where we know this is bad for us but it’s still really hard” (85:26).

Parenting, Decency, and Role Modeling

On teaching values: “All the lessons you teach your kids aren’t going to add up to a hill of beans. But watching the way you deal with a waiter in a restaurant, it’s going to be things like those little moments of observation...” (79:11).
On limit of control: “There’s this fantasy we have that your child is a piece of clay you can just mold. There is a limit to what you’re able to do” (78:31).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Resilience and Reinvention

“They both said, it’s because of our fathers…They had these fathers who’d lost more than we can really conceive of, lost everything, and then somehow forged ahead...You can hold both things in.” – Patrick Radden Keefe (76:12)

On Social Media and Modern Adolescent Myth-Making

“He wasn’t delusional, but if you grow up on these apps...your ability to draw a fine dividing line between real life and fantasy life, it’s a little blurry.” – Patrick Radden Keefe (47:49)

On Class and Shame in New Money London

“Now it’s all new money and there’s no shame about it and in fact, kind of pride.” – Patrick Radden Keefe (43:22)

On Investigative Journalism

“If you want to succeed in this line of work, you need to learn how to metabolize rejection.” – Patrick Radden Keefe (15:33)

On the Ubiquity of Pretending

“All three of them are pretending to be something that they’re not. It’s like the Spider man meme, you know?” – Patrick Radden Keefe (62:31)

Important Timestamps

03:01 – Patrick describes growing up in Dorchester, Boston.
07:58 – On LSE and academic decisions as social maneuvers.
10:06 – The lifelong dream of writing for The New Yorker.
12:50 – Keefe’s first rejection letter from The New Yorker.
13:26 – Law school as both backup and status escalator.
19:16 – The New Yorker exceeds Keefe’s expectations.
26:24 – What’s intriguing about “London Falling.”
34:21 – The Brettler family’s intergenerational context.
38:22 – Zach at Mill Hill among children of oligarchs.
41:48 – The “haves and the have-mores” dynamic.
62:31 – The “Spider man meme” of mutual impersonation.
68:39 – The night of Zach’s death and the MI6 camera footage.
73:39 – The Brettlers become their own detectives.
76:12 – Lessons from Holocaust survivor grandparents.
79:11 – Parental modeling > didactic lessons.

Final Thoughts

Dax and Lily close by praising the depth and empathy in Keefe’s work, likening his writing to Erik Larson's "Devil in the White City." The conversation demonstrates the human complexity behind headline tragedies: the push and pull between agency and circumstance, the allure of reinvention, and the struggle for meaning amidst loss. Keefe’s humility and insight reinforce the essential truth that even the most careful, loving families can find themselves facing the unimaginable.

For listeners: This episode is a rich exploration of family, ambition, and the social structures shaping modern lives. Whether interested in true crime, cultural history, or just a deeply human story, Keefe’s insights — and the Armchair Expert team’s probing, empathetic questions — offer much to think about.

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Patrick Radden Keefe (investigative journalist)