Sarah Paulson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard – Episode Featuring Sarah Paulson

Air Date: [Insert Air Date]
Duration: Approximately 1 hour 40 minutes

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard is joined by co-host Monica Padman to delve deep into the multifaceted career and personal life of the acclaimed actress Sarah Paulson. Known for her versatile roles in television and film, Paulson shares intimate insights into her journey, challenges, and the creative processes that have defined her illustrious career.

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Early Life and Upbringing

Sarah Paulson opens up about her unconventional upbringing, marked by frequent relocations due to her mother's decision to move for personal reasons. Growing up as an Irish twin, just 17 months apart from her younger sister, Elizabeth, Sarah discusses the dynamics of her family life.

Sarah Paulson [15:54]: "I got away with a lot more than my sister did, funnily enough."

She reflects on her childhood behaviors, highlighting her penchant for honesty compared to her sister's more truthful nature.

Sarah Paulson [16:36]: "My sister was much more honest and I was a big fat liar."

Career Beginnings

Without pursuing a traditional college education, Sarah's dedication to acting manifested early on. She recounts her first Broadway experience as an understudy for the esteemed actress Amy Ryan at the age of 19.

Sarah Paulson [46:12]: "I was 19 years old. I didn't go to college. I was like, I'm gonna try to do this."

Despite initial setbacks, including pilots that didn't get picked up, Sarah's resilience and passion for the craft kept her moving forward.

Breakthrough Roles and Collaborations

Sarah discusses her pivotal role in "Nip/Tuck", which marked her first appearance alongside Ryan Murphy, leading to a fruitful collaborative relationship.

Sarah Paulson [50:30]: "Ryan was there, and she just sort of threw her arm around me and said, can't you find something for her to do on the show?"

Her collaboration with Ryan Murphy further blossomed through roles in "American Horror Story", where her ability to portray diverse characters earned her critical acclaim and multiple Emmy nominations.

Sarah Paulson [57:33]: "Nominated for Emmys for all of those."

Additionally, her performance in "12 Years a Slave" showcased her range, intertwining intense dramatic work with her natural acting prowess.

Personal Challenges and Perspectives

Throughout the conversation, Sarah delves into personal struggles, including managing anxiety and the complexities of maintaining personal relationships amidst a demanding career.

Sarah Paulson [88:48]: "I'm figure out what your feelings are and process them."

She candidly discusses her relationship with her mother, highlighting the challenges of her upbringing and the impact it had on her emotional well-being.

Sarah Paulson [26:27]: "You have to figure out who you're supposed to be supporting."

Sarah also touches upon the intensity of portraying complex and often dark characters, emphasizing the emotional toll it can take.

Sarah Paulson [35:50]: "I got really, really."

Views on Social and Political Issues

One of the notable segments of the episode revolves around Sarah's insights into political discourse, particularly the emphasis on factual accuracy versus understanding underlying societal fears.

Sarah Paulson [08:12]: "People just want to be told the thing that will make them feel like part of a group."

She critiques the simplistic narratives often presented in political dialogues, advocating for a deeper exploration of the foundational issues that drive public sentiments.

Future Projects and Legacy

Looking ahead, Sarah expresses excitement about upcoming projects, including her latest film "Hold Your Breath" set to premiere on Hulu. She reflects on the creative decisions behind her roles and the continuous evolution of her career.

Sarah Paulson [74:50]: "I think that decision was really for myself."

Notable Quotes

• Sarah Paulson [15:54]: "I got away with a lot more than my sister did, funnily enough."

• Sarah Paulson [46:12]: "I was 19 years old. I didn't go to college. I was like, I'm gonna try to do this."

• Sarah Paulson [57:33]: "Nominated for Emmys for all of those."

• Sarah Paulson [88:48]: "I'm figure out what your feelings are and process them."

• Sarah Paulson [08:12]: "People just want to be told the thing that will make them feel like part of a group."

Conclusion

This episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard offers a profound look into Sarah Paulson's life, both personal and professional. Through candid conversations and heartfelt reflections, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the dedication, resilience, and passion that drive one of today's most talented actresses. Sarah's ability to navigate complex roles while addressing personal challenges serves as an inspiration, showcasing the depth and versatility required to excel in the competitive world of acting.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to the transcript provided and may vary slightly based on the actual podcast audio.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join onedry+ in the wondry app or on Apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

We have a big time party on today. Sarah Party Paulson. Most people don't know that's her middle name. Sarah Party Paulson.

[Monica Padman]

She's so fun.

[Dax Shepard]

She's outrageously fun. She's an Emmy and Tony award award winning actor. American Horror Story. Ratchet, my favorite, Ocean's 812 Years of Slave American crime story and a new movie out right now on Hulu. Hold your breath about the horrific Oklahoma dust storms that came in the 30s.

[Monica Padman]

Also recently I saw she was somewhere and she was wearing the Row.

[Dax Shepard]

Was she on the day? You guys were really geeking out about your outfits.

[Sarah Paulson]

Gosh.

[Dax Shepard]

Was she wearing the row on that day?

[Monica Padman]

I remember what she was wearing that day.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

But she was on my Instagram.

[Dax Shepard]

She's got style.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, she does.

[Dax Shepard]

And a ton of personality.

[Monica Padman]

She was leaving that day, like leaving the next day to go to Milan for fashion week. I was so jealous.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my. Paulson. Sarah Party Paulson. Please enjoy. Sarah Paulson. We are supported by Audible. We know you love audio content. Thanks for listening to the show, but if your ears are craving more audio, Audible is the place to go. I probably, in truth spend more time on Audible than any other place, any other app. Yeah, I'm listening every night for an hour before bed. There's more to imagine when you listen. Whether you're searching for the latest bestsellers and new releases or you want to catch up on a classic title, you can find it all in the Audible app. And as an Audible member, you. You choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog.

[Monica Padman]

What are you listening to now?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'm just finishing the Worlds I See by Fay Feli. It's so good and moving and I love it so much. I'm. I'm sad it's ending. Now listen. New members can try Audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.comdax or text DAX to 500. 500. That's audible.comdax or text Dax to 500. 500. The new Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist. And it's the fastest charging Apple watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. Introducing the all new Apple Watch Series 10 now available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared To Previous generation iPhone XS or later required charge time and actual results will vary. He's an object.

[Sarah Paulson]

Sound of those feet bounding up the stairs. He's late. He's late. He's bounding. I heard a bound.

[Dax Shepard]

I sometimes have a good excuse and sometimes I have a really bad. This is the worst excuse.

[Monica Padman]

We started so many conversations. We have already so many pins.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you earmark them all?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, we did.

[Sarah Paulson]

I didn't. I leave that up to you because guess what? My job is just sit here and.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's nice, right?

[Sarah Paulson]

I really am very into your particular armchair.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you want to try it?

[Monica Padman]

You would really blend in because you're in blue and it would be.

[Sarah Paulson]

I worry that I would never get up.

[Dax Shepard]

I think you would.

[Monica Padman]

That's fine.

[Sarah Paulson]

Really? Okay, let's try it. Hold on.

[Dax Shepard]

You're having a hip issue.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Look at this. What if we reversed order today?

[Dax Shepard]

We did this with David.

[Sarah Paulson]

I feel like Edith Ann. My name.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. David Harbor.

[Sarah Paulson]

Name is Aith Ann. And I feel like I'm like this.

[Dax Shepard]

A little girl.

[Sarah Paulson]

A little girl.

[Dax Shepard]

Hi. David Har from the outside in for your characters.

[Sarah Paulson]

I do now. I didn't used to.

[Dax Shepard]

You could even extend that out beyond your outfit into your chair. You sit in.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

You could start with a prop this time.

[Sarah Paulson]

I just like how willing you were to give it to me. You're like, you want to try it?

[Dax Shepard]

I have a lot of respect for you. I don't know if you know this. We're 15 days apart. Really? I was born January 2nd. January 2nd.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm December 17th. So you're 1975, though?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, I'm 74.

[Dax Shepard]

My father was very upset by that. Oh, this is fun. Now I get to look at mom.

[Monica Padman]

Because sometimes this is so weird.

[Sarah Paulson]

You don't like it? We can go back. Let's go back.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I kind of like it.

[Monica Padman]

I don't like it because I don't really get to see.

[Sarah Paulson]

Okay, we gotta go back.

[Dax Shepard]

We're gonna go back. I was willing to do it this way, though.

[Monica Padman]

We're changing it up and I'm learning how to speak them.

[Sarah Paulson]

Super flexible, Monica.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice. Rigid. Rigid. Rigid.

[Sarah Paulson]

Rigidity. Rigidity.

[Monica Padman]

I will own that.

[Dax Shepard]

She's not rigid like frigid or. What would the bad words we'd use? They're generally misogynistic, I think.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes. Is there a man we could call frigid?

[Dax Shepard]

We would call him fastidious.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. That's a good word, though. That's a good s. A word.

[Sarah Paulson]

Fastidious.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's also good for the alliteration. Fastidious.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I own how embarrassing it is? Why I'm white?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

So I had plenty of time. It was so nice that you were two today. And I know there was confusion whether you were 11 or 2.

[Sarah Paulson]

It wasn't my confusion, but. But here I am. Drove all the way back. It was great for me to throw.

[Monica Padman]

Everyone else under the bus. It wasn't our confusion.

[Sarah Paulson]

It was someone named Adrian.

[Dax Shepard]

Adrian.

[Sarah Paulson]

Fucked up, guys.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, don't worry. I sent.

[Sarah Paulson]

Sorry, Adrian. Dear Adrian, I want you to know this was really hard.

[Dax Shepard]

I write to you on the other side of a ruined day, a day.

[Sarah Paulson]

I could not get back. Adrian, you don't know what I planned because I am rigid.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay? So I was like, oh, so much time. So I watched your movie. I watch half in bed, and then I watch half while working out. Then I made myself. For the first time ever, I ground some elk. Tons of me. Yes. Tons of protein.

[Sarah Paulson]

Time out. I'm a non meat eater. So you've. Oh, you are ground some elk?

[Dax Shepard]

Like, well, hold on.

[Sarah Paulson]

Little baby elk flesh or. You mean an elk antler?

[Dax Shepard]

I purchased it. Ground.

[Sarah Paulson]

Processed ground elk.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And it's got 88 grams of protein in a pound, which blew my mind. So it's my first time cooking elk. Everything's golden. I got some egg whites, some elk. I'm sitting and eating. My wife and her good friend Anna come in and we get engaged in a political conversation, which I tend to avoid. And they were really buying it. They were, like, really into these points I was making. And then I literally started pontificating and lost track of time because I was drunk on the approval that was happening. So it was like, maybe the worst reason ever to be like.

[Sarah Paulson]

But a very relatable reason. I can really relate to this. It's like, yes, anytime someone says anything nice to me, I do kind of think, wow, I should sit in this space for a minute, or. If you're interested in my point of view, great, you're not going to get me upstairs to my armchair podcast.

[Dax Shepard]

And I wanted to be here. It wasn't none of that stuff. It just. All of a sudden, I looked up and I was like, oh, I've been pontificating for quite a while. This is embarrassing. I must run now.

[Sarah Paulson]

I, of course, want to know what points you were making.

[Monica Padman]

Same. But I'm also scared. But I am interested.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, it would be bad. Oh, well, what's really fun is the. They're eating dogs, they're eating cats, they're eating the pets. Right? This is this whole thing and it's going around. It's a meme, and people have made songs about it and they were saying it, and I said, here's where. I think the left doesn't get it a little bit. Of course, they're not eating dogs and cats. But there are lots of people on the border of Texas, Arizona, where they look in their backyard and there's like 12 people moving through their backyard. They're very scared. They don't really care if it's dogs or cats. They're just going like, okay, so this guy understands. My comp was, if you live in la, we have a relationship with the homeless that we wouldn't have if we didn't live here, I think. And so if Trump gets on and says the homeless are eating dogs and cats, I'm like, they're not. But this guy's concerned about the thing that's around me nonstop. So we think because we have the factual point that we've won, but we're failing to dig a little deeper and go, why does that crazy lie still appeal? What is the foundation? Why that's an appealing statement. I'm very afraid of all the people coming over the border. You know, that's what they're saying. So, anyways, that was the conversation.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's interesting. I guess what I feel about it is my comp to this would be. But it's the same thing as only watching MSNBC or only watching Fox News. It's like you just want to be told the thing that will make you feel like all the things we want to be told, seen, understood, heard, part of a group of people who have a shared sense of whatever matters to you, makes you feel like you belong somewhere. So that's your thing is saying maybe the left is focusing too much on the factual inaccuracy as opposed to what is the fundamental tether. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The knockout punch to comfort that side isn't to go, he got the fat wrong. So the whole thing's off the table. It should be more like, listen, we definitely need a labor market. We want to have people coming in. We want to have work visas. Obviously, we should not be letting people in that haven't applied. We shouldn't be allowing people to flood over the border. We should be acknowledging what the fear is.

[Monica Padman]

But Kamala and Biden have an incredibly conservative border policy right now, so it's Also not about that.

[Dax Shepard]

She's afraid to say what this great policy is.

[Monica Padman]

No, it's available. And so I hear you, and I love that you do this. Well, sometimes I like that you do.

[Dax Shepard]

You like it from afar.

[Sarah Paulson]

The subtextual story there felt a little bit like, I love that you do this, you great big idiot.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not you. I love that you did it over there is basically what I love.

[Monica Padman]

It's not you great big idiot. It's I love that you do this. I am exhausted by it, though. I do appreciate it because it is really important for us to see everyone's perspectives on this. But I think a lot of them truly. And this isn't calling anyone dumb, they do believe what he says, and they do take it as truth. And that's the danger. If he just said, they're coming over and it's really bad. But these specific lies about, they're coming for our pets or there's never been more crowds in history.

[Sarah Paulson]

People don't leave my rallies. That's my bad. Donald Trump. I'm doing accordion hand physical action. They love it.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't do it. And I think that's been a blessing because I think if I could do him, I would do it all the time, and we would have a very political show. And I don't want a political show. I just can't do it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, because he can't help himself if he has one in the T. Think you'll hear Arnold? Probably. Maybe today.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'm gonna make this more about Sarah. Okay, well, I'm gonna try.

[Sarah Paulson]

You don't have to.

[Dax Shepard]

Unless you've ever wanted to have a conversation with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Sarah Paulson]

No, but I mean, I could have a conversation as Holly Hunter with you.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I don't know.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's kind of great. It's great.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna join you with this guy because he likes to talk a little bit. He's like the male Holly Hunter because he's got a little whistle.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, that's great. You sound just like him.

[Dax Shepard]

You sound just like Holly Hunter.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, my God. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

And I love Holly Hunter.

[Sarah Paulson]

I love her, too. I love myself, too.

[Dax Shepard]

I really do love Holly.

[Sarah Paulson]

I love Holly Hunter, too. And I would like to see more of Holly Hunter out in the world doing her acting thing, because I love it so much.

[Dax Shepard]

Raising Arizona.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, my God. Oh, I want go get me a baby hat. You know, she's like, yanni me, baby.

[Dax Shepard]

I got a hat.

[Sarah Paulson]

I just love it.

[Dax Shepard]

All babies are.

[Monica Padman]

You did her in Studio 60 I think I did. I was obsessed with that show.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think that's how I got the part, because I did impressions.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, well, you were great on that show.

[Dax Shepard]

Thanks.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think everybody auditioned for that. It was back in the day. I don't know if you remember this, by the way. It was called Studio 7 back then. Oh. And I remember when they moved it to Studio 6 and we were like, that's terrible. Studio 7 is so much better now. When I think of Studio 7, I'm like, that sounds terrible.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

I mean, it was the show that everybody wanted. Sorkin, first project for Perry, post Friends, first project for Bradley Whitford post West Wing. It was Tommy Schlamme directing. I thought I was super set after I got that job.

[Monica Padman]

I'm sure you did.

[Sarah Paulson]

I really did. And guess What? Canceled after 22.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe less than that.

[Sarah Paulson]

It was one season. I think we even had to give an episode. I'm going to say this. I don't know if I'll get sued for this, but who cares? What if there is a department's like, you cannot say this true thing that happened to you. You cannot say it in order to get the back nine. Remember that terminology?

[Dax Shepard]

So just to let the listener in, they generally would order 13 out of the gates. If they liked your pilot, they'd either order six, which you might as well not even.

[Sarah Paulson]

You might as well not do it. Your mid season replacement six episode, you're like, not a great start.

[Dax Shepard]

The list is short of shows that started that way. And then more conventionally, they would do 13, and if it's going well, they'll add nine different.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think Grey's Anatomy was a weird mid season replacement. Oh, you're right. So sometimes it happens. But I remember we did our 13, and then in order to get the pickup for the back nine, because the show was so expensive at the time, we had to give back like an episode. And I basically did it for free.

[Dax Shepard]

So you basically were like, pay me for 20, I'll do 21. I mean, you didn't suggest that.

[Sarah Paulson]

Correct. And I sure didn't because I was not making what the other folks were making at that time. And I was like, oh, I'll do anything just to keep it going.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we all have these historic cases where a show found its audience in season two or three. So you cling onto these things.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's really true.

[Monica Padman]

Is that where you met Amanda?

[Sarah Paulson]

Amanda and I did a show called Jack and Jill.

[Monica Padman]

Loved Jack and Jill, that show.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's where we met. That is where we met.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Sarah Paulson]

Monica revealing her television tastes. Can I tell you her early aughts?

[Dax Shepard]

You're getting a very sparkly version of Monica for some reason today. Did you have a great day?

[Monica Padman]

No, I'm just so.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, me too.

[Monica Padman]

Wanting you for so long.

[Dax Shepard]

Should we start with that?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I find you, like. I don't know if I thought you were real.

[Sarah Paulson]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And I hope you take that as a huge compliment.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm going to.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think Daniel Day Lewis is real?

[Sarah Paulson]

I do actually know what you mean, but I don't know what you mean. When you use my name and then you say Daniel Day Lewis, I sort of am like, what the.

[Dax Shepard]

And this isn't a shootout for number one. It's simply the man disappears in a way that I'm not sure he's a real man. And I don't know if I met him. I just don't know what I would do with it. To put you in that category, which I've seen so much of what you've done, and it's so all over the map, so impressively so. Every time I'm kind of like, I'm never going to cross paths with that unicorn, that little creature that's out there. You're one of those. It's an enigma.

[Sarah Paulson]

That is the biggest compliment in the world. Oh, good. Just because my dream. I mean, I make a joke all the time about how all I want is a peg leg and a black tooth. No offense to anyone with a peg leg or a black tooth. My point is, I want to do something always that is so outside of my own experience and existence as an act. I always wanted that, even when I was very young, but I never thought I'd get it. It was only because of the Ryan Murphy stuff and the weird dovetail magical thing that happened. Doing a show like American Horror Story that was on for so many years and doing a different character every year, which sort of encouraged the audience to accept me in a new form every time. Oh, what are we gonna see Evan Peters do this year? And what's Jessica Lange gonna do? And who are we gonna play? But for us, it was always just like going in the old ratty costumes prop closet and pulling out a nasty wig and a weird robe and being like, this is who I get to be this season. That little childhood actor apart.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you fear everything?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

What if I just said, do you fear?

[Sarah Paulson]

Well, the answer is yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Sarah Paulson]

Do you fear?

[Dax Shepard]

My next question is that you're human. The range is so outrageous, and a lot of them Are kind of story driven and I guess they lead you in ways. But do you have any fear that you'll run out of characters?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes, I do. Or what am I gonna do? That is going to be surprising for me and interesting for me and not have the audience be like, oh God, this bitch again. Look at her. Oh, she's got fake teeth in and she's wearing glasses. Where that becomes the expectation.

[Dax Shepard]

Or if you did, some people are like, that's Marcia Clark in a green wig. You wouldn't want to get caught.

[Sarah Paulson]

I wouldn't. That would be bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. You started in Tampa till five. You have a little sister, she's two years younger.

[Sarah Paulson]

Well, this is where my horrible math thing comes into play, which is we are Irish twins, essentially. But I can never remember if we're 17 or 19 months apart. She's born July of 76 and I'm December of 74.

[Dax Shepard]

Is that 17 months?

[Sarah Paulson]

July 76.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a 7 to 5, 5 plus 12. 17.

[Sarah Paulson]

Okay, so we're 17 months apart. So she's my little sister. Yeah, Elizabeth.

[Dax Shepard]

So under two years apart, I would say is key. And over a year apart. It's not crazy. So you're the older sibling. You're supposed to be a certain way. Do you think you are that way?

[Sarah Paulson]

I do. How many siblings do you.

[Dax Shepard]

I have an older brother and a younger sister.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, so you're middle.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I have two little girls. So I'm watching that whole thing play out.

[Monica Padman]

And they're Irish twins as well. And I'm a firstborn.

[Sarah Paulson]

And are you the way you're supposed to be?

[Monica Padman]

Absolutely. Remember earlier when we were talking about.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh yeah, we were talking about rigidness. Yeah, rigidity. Yeah, I'm controlling.

[Dax Shepard]

Uh huh. Good.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm also, I think, the chosen one in my family. I got to take care of everyone. But also maybe this is a little bit off brand for it, but I don't feel like I had particularly strict parents. My parents were 21 and 22 when they had me. So we're super, super young. So there was nothing strict about anything about my upbringing. I do think they liked me best. My sister will hear this. She's going to agree. I got away with a lot more than my sister did, funnily enough.

[Monica Padman]

But were you better at doing the bad behavior?

[Sarah Paulson]

My sister was much more honest and I was a big fat liar. She was really like, I want Coca Cola for breakfast. And I looked around and I was like, oh, everyone thought that was really cute, but also really like a childish thing. To do. And I would look around and think the most impressive thing I could do would be to ask for a glass of milk. And so I would ask for the thing that would make them think I was super grown. You counter punched? I was doing a counter punch. And my sister was much more truthful. And I was constantly hyper vigilant and really assessing like the bionic woman. Like what would get me the most likes ask for the grown up thing. Play quietly by myself. My sister was the tugger. Mom, mom, mom, mom. And I remember looking at her being like, you're not gonna get anything you want that way. So I would just be like reading a book in the corner. I was a big, big reader. But I remember reading and my sister just being. And my mom being like, shut up. And I thought if I don't do that, mom's going to ask me if I want to go shopping. Which I did.

[Dax Shepard]

There could be multiple incentives with this approach. Cuz this was mine as well. Even though I was middle. My brother wanted cool jeans and a certain bicycle and all this. My mom was broke and single mom.

[Sarah Paulson]

I had a single mom too.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm curious. Part of it is like yeah, I wanted lots of adoration.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, for sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Can't get enough of it.

[Sarah Paulson]

Still can't. Meaning me. I'm not saying you a healthy version.

[Dax Shepard]

Of actually worried about my mother.

[Sarah Paulson]

Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

She's overwhelmed. This is too much. I can't be the 18th thing on her plate. So some codependency, motivation as well. You relate to that.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh my God, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because she was way the fucking over her head. Right. She leaves with two little kids and goes to New York City with not knowing anybody.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, she didn't know anybody.

[Dax Shepard]

Why did she want to go there?

[Sarah Paulson]

She wanted to be a writer.

[Dax Shepard]

She thought they only had typewriters in New York.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think also she could speak to this much more clearly than I could. But she grew up in a very conservative religious family. And my mom was just, and is still, still a real free spirit and just felt totally straight jacketed living in that town. And it just was not for her. And so she, at 27 years old packed me and my sister up and we went and moved to New York. And my mom was just doing that on her own and got a job at Sardi's and was a waitress there.

[Dax Shepard]

It made me think of this. Have you ever worked with the first A.D. david Sardi?

[Sarah Paulson]

No, I have not.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, darn it.

[Sarah Paulson]

Who the hell is David Sardi?

[Dax Shepard]

David Sardi's the first ad he was mine on a movie.

[Sarah Paulson]

Is he a Sardi?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. So he grew up working in that kitchen and everything. Whoa.

[Monica Padman]

Weird.

[Sarah Paulson]

Whoa.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you know what Sardi's is?

[Monica Padman]

I've never heard of it.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a total institution. Right. I want to say, he told me at one time how many meals they'll serve at a dinner service, but it's in the thousands.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's a pre and post theater institution. It's like you either go to Sardi's before you go to the play. When you're doing a play, you're very pissed at everyone who went to Sardis because they've all had two martinis and a big fat steak and they're sleeping. And you're like, wake up Thursday through Saturday, you're like, everyone went to Sardis.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Sarah Paulson]

Or you go there post show.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to get a little lit up.

[Sarah Paulson]

A little lit up for that.

[Dax Shepard]

And so one thing we're earmarking, we're not paying off yet. One of the things Sardis is famous for is they have cartoon characters.

[Sarah Paulson]

They do of all this sort of.

[Dax Shepard]

Broadway performance, Broadway legends, and there's a famous wall with the characters of them. Okay. So just know that that's what happens at Sardi's. Okay. So your mother lands you guys in. I guess, well, you go to Maine for a second, but then you go to Queens and then you go to Brooklyn.

[Sarah Paulson]

We were in Brooklyn first. We moved so, so, so much, which was not easy. And at the same time, I think has really steadied me and readied me for the work I do. I'm always a person who's like, I'm gonna go home after work, even if I'm in Winnipeg. And people were like, you're going home or to the hotel? And I was like, oh, yeah, wherever I am, I need to call it that. It feels like that to me wherever I am.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you take any home goods?

[Sarah Paulson]

And I don't. I just am sort of like wherever the bed is. I feel like it's a consequence of moving. Who knows? It might be a little bit like Stockholm syndrome. It just was like, this is what feels familiar. And so doing this feels better than looking at the same wall over and over and over again. Because then I start to feel like time has stopped. And that's another kind of terror.

[Monica Padman]

Do you feel that in relationships, like commitments?

[Sarah Paulson]

I've always been in a committed relationship. I've so rarely been single.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Sarah Paulson]

I had one chunk of like a five year period, and that was really the longest I went this leads to our pin. Yeah, this is our pin. Pre. You showing up back when I was. Back when you were pontificating in your kitchen with your wife and her friend, weirdly.

[Monica Padman]

Which is a ding, ding, ding. Because we were talking about pets.

[Sarah Paulson]

Motherhood and pets. Dogs and cats. And cats.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Paulson]

We had a whole. What if a person takes this?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. There's a softer one behind you, though.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but both are available.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's like a cold, cold person.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm a hot person.

[Sarah Paulson]

Well, obviously, because it's freezing in here. No big deal. Totally fine. I was in here first. Freezing cold before you got here.

[Dax Shepard]

We had Jeff Bridges in here, literally.

[Sarah Paulson]

Besides Gene Hackman, my favorite actor of all time.

[Dax Shepard]

Will we put Paul Newman in there?

[Sarah Paulson]

I like Paul Newman, but for me, it's Gene Hackman and Jeff Bridges are the men. And Alan Rickman make me bonkers mental.

[Dax Shepard]

Those are great picks. I applaud those. But he got here, it was during the heat wave, and we didn't turn the air on early enough. It probably went on an hour before he got here. And he got in here, and he goes, oh, it was warm. Is it gonna get cooler? And I go, yeah, it's gonna get cooler. And it did cooler. I think it probably got hotter. And I was just watching. I'm like, I'm gonna kill Jeff Bridges.

[Sarah Paulson]

You can't do that.

[Dax Shepard]

Nothing can kill Jeff Bridges. Okay, so back to Mom. She first goes to Brooklyn.

[Sarah Paulson]

We moved to Maine because my grandparents did the weird backwards thing of, you know how you normally live in Maine and you go to Florida to live out your snowbird. So my grandparents did the opposite. My grandmother was born in Mobile, Alabama, my grandfather in Florida. And then they started summering. The way people. I mean, people use the word summer. Yeah, I'm summering. It's like, what? It is summer. I don't know what summering is.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, summer's a verb.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, summer is a verb. But they would go to Maine for the summer, and then they decided to move there. And so my mom decided to move there for a year. She didn't know what to do. She had a breakup. We went and we lived with my grandparents, and we got our own place, and we lived there for a year and then moved back. Then I moved back to Florida to live with my dad.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a terrible schedule for you, at least as is printed. You would go in the summers to see that, which makes sense scholastically, but.

[Sarah Paulson]

Really, really unpleasant from a physical standpoint. All blessings Floridian, about hell on Earth.

[Monica Padman]

And also when you're supposed to be, like, hanging with your friends and stuff.

[Sarah Paulson]

I know. It was always a little bit of a thing. My mom had us all during the.

[Dax Shepard]

Year, and then she needed a fucking break.

[Sarah Paulson]

She needed a fucking break. And then we would go there.

[Dax Shepard]

She needed to hook up with some of the dudes at Sardis and a waitstaff. Right? That's a wild group.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's a wild group. My mom was the only person who worked at Sardis who had kids at that time.

[Dax Shepard]

Did she date? Were there any stepdads?

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

It's okay. It's really not a big deal. It's kind of cute the way it fell.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's water. Water over all of the electrical devices. Guys, guys. I'm just gonna sit here. That is not an absorbent cloth, but you can. It's like a shawl. Did you see how I didn't jump up? Everybody's cleaning. I'm just gonna narrate it. Oh, you're taking the mic away from me. People want to hear about this. There is a sparkly bubbling lime beverage on the floor.

[Monica Padman]

Of course, it happened when we were talking about stepdads.

[Sarah Paulson]

I know. Interesting. You're, like, talking about my mom's sex life. And I was, like, asking. My mom was dating. I was like, pardon me while I spill everything conveniently. And then I don't have to answer this question. Anyway, my mom had some boyfriends. Poor mom. Hi, Mom. If you hear this, I apologize in advance, but my mom was a single lady. She was 27 years old. Like, I can't imagine. So she had some boyfriends, some of whom I didn't like. Then she had one very serious boyfriend who I really liked. He was around for a while, but then he went away, too. And then that was hard.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think you can win. You either like them and then they go away, or you hate them like I did, and they go away.

[Sarah Paulson]

Right? And they don't go away fast enough. I mean, I wanted my mom to be with someone. And it's not like I was pining for her and my father to be back together. I didn't really have that. And they both trash talked each other so much. To us, that was a bad thing because my dad was always making fun of my mom, and my mom was always saying dad wasn't paying the child support. And so it was always this thing where my sister and I were like, are we supposed to not like dad? Because we really love going there in the summer. And my dad was very successful. And so he had this fancy, ish life that we felt was really glamorous. And, you know, the swimming pool that we got to go in and ice.

[Dax Shepard]

Cream cones, VHS recorder.

[Sarah Paulson]

VHS recorder. Trips to the mall, getting dropped records. And, like, getting some big fat fries with the sprinkled stuff. Whatever they put on there. Double doozies from the mall. The cookies with the frosting in the middle. Oh, God.

[Dax Shepard]

Dads don't give up.

[Sarah Paulson]

Dads don't give a fuck about the health. They're like, yeah, we'll drop you off at the mall, go see 16 movies. Come back with, like a purple tongue from. What was it called? A kamikaze or something? No. And you would, like, go to the self slushy machine. Slushy machine. And you could just put purple and pink and the blue and then the Coca Cola with the sprite and the 7up, whatever the hell that was called. We just did that and eating all the food and just coming home just like. And it was just heaven for us. And I think my mom was a little like, oh, it's great that you get to go down there with your dad and do all that. And now you gotta do all this other stuff at home. Take the trash out and do all that. Be responsible.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Sarah Paulson]

And so my dad loved being the one. I think that we were so happy to be there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

And my mom was dealing with real life. That was a complicated thing. My parents really talk shit about each other in a way that made us not know exactly who we were supposed to be supporting. And it's like the first time my sister and I experienced that thing of, like, are you supposed to side with the person you're with? Or are you supposed to defend the person? Or we didn't really know what the right thing to do was. And then I think it would create a lot of guilt.

[Monica Padman]

There's been studies that it's a kin abuse.

[Sarah Paulson]

Well, Mom, Dad, I'm here to tell you, Monica wants you to know you're an abuser.

[Monica Padman]

Who?

[Sarah Paulson]

You're listening. I don't know if you're listening. I'll send this to you to let you know. Those therapy bills I'm sending you, it's very damaging. Yeah, it was confusing. I mean, you love married. And also, I think it was too early to introduce this idea of questioning what your parent was like outside of your relationship to them, what they were in the world in terms of assessing them as human beings. It was like, too early for my sister and I to have that ability to be like, well, why doesn't dad like Mom? And why doesn't mom like dad? And why isn't dad paying the child support? Or is he put too fine a point on questioning who they were as people and everyone's intentions, as opposed to just this, like, safe space for caregiving and all that other stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

And you can see where it would be really tempting, too, because I'm even still with my wife and around the children. And I have to police myself because I have a very sneaky way where I could make fun of mom in front of everyone.

[Sarah Paulson]

Totally.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's actually just a grievance I have and I have to stop myself. But it's in the chamber.

[Sarah Paulson]

I really understand.

[Dax Shepard]

And if she weren't around and we were divorced and I hated her, fucking, yes. I think it would be even that much harder.

[Sarah Paulson]

We come from a family of. My dad was a big teaser. And so that's how my sister and I even to this day, she says my arm looks. Sorry, my arm looks like a kielbasa sausage. And she's not wrong. It does sort of.

[Monica Padman]

Look, it's not very nice.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's not very nice. But she's not, you know. And I say some things to her too, but we really go at each other, but we just start laughing. But deep down, when I go to put on a sleeveless shirt, I do think, like, is my arm like a kielbasa sausage? I probably should just maybe wear a longer sleeve shirt, you know? Or she said that my face when it's upside down. No, she said my nose looks like a mushroom. I like how I'm only saying the things she says about me just to engender some good interviews.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sure you only tell her how gorgeous her hair looks. No, I'm always telling her how well spoken she is.

[Sarah Paulson]

No, sometimes I make comments about things I do.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I, as a sibling, love it. Kathryn Hahn was just on too, and she was saying that her family let it rip in a way that was so evil. And she's having to break that cycle. And me, too, because I've already walked halfway down the path. You still can get made fun of in our house.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes, I do think it's a real asset to be a person who can laugh at yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

I agree.

[Sarah Paulson]

In the world, if you got that in your back pocket, you can kind of weather Fisher quote, which I will not say perfectly, which is like, you've got to find the funny, because if it isn't funny, then it's just true. And that would be unbearable. You got to find a way Sometimes to laugh at yourself, it's kind of.

[Dax Shepard]

A gift they give you. Because I see this in our kids. The eldest has a really hard time with rejection or disapproval because she grew up with two people staring at her, thinking she was God's gift to planet Earth. The little sister gets rejected a hundred times a day by the older sister. So she moves through the world, and she's like, I'm going to go say hi to this person. They might say, get out of here. I don't care. That'll be the 81st time someone said something shitty to me today. You get made numb to it, which can be an asset.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's right. Sibling stuff is so interesting to me.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. I'm comforted that you're still making fun of each other. That means you talk.

[Sarah Paulson]

She lives very close to here, and she was like, wait, you're gonna be nearby? And I was like, yeah, I'm not coming over. Yeah, I got shit to do. But she's one of my favorite people in the world. We're the only ones who are around for our parents and our experiences as children.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm writing about it at the moment, and I recall the moment my brother and I looked at each other, or at least it seared in my head as the first time. Maybe it happened before, but there was definitely a moment where we're sitting in the backseat of the car in the wintertime and the house is on fire, and the stepdad who passed out and cooked a steak while my mom was at work. This whole circus. And now fire department's there and they're fighting, and we were in the backseat and we both looked at each other as if to say, ah, they're all crazy. Everyone's nuts, right? Fuck. It's you and I, right?

[Sarah Paulson]

And you just want someone to sort of acknowledge that they see what you see.

[Dax Shepard]

That's another gift. You can bond in a way, if you grew up in some chaos.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's true. And we are the first to laugh at ourselves and each other. And all we do is make fun of my mom.

[Dax Shepard]

That's her job now.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Is to take it on the chip.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's right. Sorry, Mom.

[Dax Shepard]

It's your turn in the barrel. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by the new holiday action comedy Red 1. The mission to save Christmas is on. Dwayne Johnson and Chris Evans star in Red One from Jake Kasdan, who I love, as you know, director of Jumanji. Welcome to the jungle. After Santa Claus, codename Red One, played by J.K. simmons, is kidnapped. The North Pole's head of security, played by Dwayne Johnson, must team up with the world's most infamous bounty hunter, played by Chris Evans, in a globetrotting, action packed mission to save Christmas. This is Christmas fun like you've never seen before. See Red 1 only in theaters November 15th. Get tickets [e-mail] we are supported by Audible. I love Audible. I've been listening to so much Audible lately because I've been taking these naps a lot. I always like to listen to Audible to go to sleep. Now look, it's a special feeling when you encounter a story that truly sparks your imagination. Whether it's imagining new worlds and possibilities or discovering new ways of thinking, there's more to imagine when you listen. That's why we love listening to the amazing titles they have on Audible. Right now I'm listening to Wim Hof.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And you are really into it. You were explaining a lot of the pieces to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And I lost you a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

I'm listening to Intermezzo by Sally Rooney.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it great?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's great.

[Dax Shepard]

Audible truly has the best selection of audiobooks. Without exception. From bestsellers to new releases to exclusive Audible originals, there's always something to discover. As an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.comdax or text DAX to 500. 500. That's audible.comdax or text Dax to 505. We are supported by Sonos. Oh boy, oh boy. Sonos is my favorite product in my whole life. I'm listening to it all day long. I'm in the gym listening to Sonos. I'm at home, listen, watching TV with my Sonos soundbar. I mean, it's.

[Monica Padman]

It really changes the whole experience of listening.

[Dax Shepard]

Look, you're listening to the podcast right now, but how are you listening if you're not listening on a Sonos speaker? You don't even know how amazing the dulcet tones of our voices can sound. Sonos is known for having the absolute best sound quality of any speaker on the the market. You've got to hear it. And as good as Sonos can make us sound, imagine listening to Pink Floyd on a Sonos speaker or hearing the booming dramatic music in a great action film on a Sonos soundbar. Game changing. Another incredible feature of Sonos, their integrated sound system makes it easy to play anything in any room.

[Monica Padman]

I love that it's easy to use too.

[Dax Shepard]

So you can keep your dance party going throughout your whole house. Visit sonos.comdax to learn more. That's son kronos.comstacks we are supported by peloton. Are you tired of the same old workout routine or struggling to find motivation at this busy time of year? It's time to check out peloton.

[Monica Padman]

Peloton is so great. We all know this also. Not only is it a good workout, which I did at our friend Molly's house, it's a great workout. But it's also like pretty. It's sleek.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it is. It's a good looking piece.

[Monica Padman]

Very aesthetically pleasing. And you know that Matt matters to me.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. I agree. Well, peloton has a variety of training programs. They got pilates, 5k, 10k, half and full marathon programs, strength training, boot camps. There's so many ways to challenge yourself.

[Monica Padman]

It's so helpful to have a set plan. It takes the guesswork out. It just makes it easier to get started on your fitness journey.

[Dax Shepard]

That's great. And there's so many options on peloton so you can find a workout that gives you exactly what you're looking for.

[Monica Padman]

Kind of workout are you feeling today?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I gotta tell you, I was recently advised by by a doctor to incorporate some more blasts, some high intensity blasts that you get the special. He said, look at sprinters, right? Why do they look like that? Because they're in this really high heart rate for some period of time and it's really beneficial. So I'm looking to go hard. Hard.

[Monica Padman]

Cool. Well, whatever you're looking for, Peloton has the workout for you. And they have world class fitness instructors to push you to the next level.

[Dax Shepard]

Find your push, find your power with [e-mail] calm. Okay, so when in this childhood of moving around a lot and ending up in park slope, I guess for the longest period.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes, that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

When do you decide that you're theatrically inclined?

[Sarah Paulson]

I think it happened long before then. I really think it happened when I was in utero. I have to imagine that it did. My mom would confirm for you that there was never a time when I didn't want to be an actress.

[Dax Shepard]

And what kind of weird stuff were you doing?

[Sarah Paulson]

Imitating commercials in the bathroom. You know, commercial member prel. I'm sure you do. Swirling my hair around and shaking in the mirror and insisting that we put on plays that I would direct and my sister would have to play every part I wanted, but I would play all the good Parts. And she would be like the teapot or something and always wanting to do that for the family and listen to me sing this song. And I have a singing voice that is so shockingly bad. And there are all these pictures of me in front of the wall of books just singing my little heart out from Annie. I just was always that way.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you getting to go to any musical? Did you go see Annie as a kid?

[Sarah Paulson]

You know, there's. There's that story which I've told before, which is I lied and told everyone when I went to my new school that I was very close to getting the part of Annie in the movie.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's wonderful.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's like, you see that actress, it was almost me, you know, like, I just created a whole story. It's just early acting, which is just a lot of really convincing lying.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, there's a thin line between a motivation board, or what do they call them?

[Sarah Paulson]

Vision board.

[Dax Shepard]

A vision board. And actually not just saying out loud like, it happened.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, wow.

[Monica Padman]

You were ahead of your time.

[Sarah Paulson]

When I think about it now, I'm just like, you were really desperate to matter or to seem important. It was somehow very clear from an early age that I obviously didn't feel that just my own being was enough. I had to create some story about being chosen for this very special thing.

[Monica Padman]

You still have it. You're saying even with the parts you play, you don't wanna play you.

[Sarah Paulson]

I wanna play something as far away from me as possible. And I want the challenge of trying to inhabit some other. Like the Linda Tripp thing was probably the greatest acting challenge of my life and the work I'm the most proud of. Even though a lot of people didn't watch it and a lot of people didn't like it so much critically. I got really, really.

[Monica Padman]

You did?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, I did, but in a very funky way. I remember reading one review that was about what would Sarah Paulson know about loneliness? A lot of it was talking about me as a person playing this person who was sort of unseen and forgotten by society and then did this really, really despicable thing. It was just an interesting thing that there was a person take. I shouldn't be the one to do it because I wouldn't know what that's about.

[Dax Shepard]

Almost like it wasn't your story to tell.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, well, also as a thin actress playing a woman who was not physically, I looked so different from her. And that I was playing a woman who was profoundly lonely, at least in our version of the story. That was what motivated her Subpar, to put it mildly, choices that she made.

[Dax Shepard]

I think as I've grown, my list of people I hate is really, really small if you ask me. On any given day, I really can't think of anybody. But I have to say there's a couple I still have and I'm gonna hold on to them. I really hated Linda Tripp. I really, really despised what she had done to that young girl. And cool. The context, why it motivated her, that's always going to interest me. But I'm holding some space for. I think she was, at least for that chunk of her life, was a really terrible person. Because I don't mind when people's fuck uppery injures themselves, but when your version destroys another human being.

[Sarah Paulson]

The only thing I, I would say, or posit, as I like to use.

[Dax Shepard]

The word posit for a gal who didn't go to college and I know.

[Sarah Paulson]

Sure didn't go to college, is that I think people know not what they do sometimes. Which is why I would separate it from her being a terrible person versus a person who is consciously trying to. For example, I don't think she was capable of seeing the forest through the trees in terms of the consequence, the global fascination and the explosion in terms of Monica being destroyed. And in Linda's mind, the idea that Monica came from money and that Monica was beautiful and that Monica had a leg up that Linda never had. So in her mind, when you have those things, there will be no strikes against you.

[Monica Padman]

It's punching down always.

[Sarah Paulson]

Exactly. And so I think for Linda, she was like. And it's even in the script I remember, it was like, monica will be fine. There's no danger to Monica. Because for Linda, so much of what her experience was was being so invisible that she thought if you look like that, if you come from that kind of family, you will have everything. And the reason I didn't have any of these things is because I don't look like that. I don't have that. So she was unable to see.

[Dax Shepard]

And that's a very relatable point of view. I have admitted to that in the past where it's like I felt like my life was unjust and so I felt entitled to do things that were very bad to right size, the scale, right. Like I stole. I'm like, yeah, well, rich people have money. I don't have.

[Sarah Paulson]

I did that too from the candy store and maybe from Betsy Johnson once. She deserved a long sleeve bodysuit that in the 90s were the big. Remember, like girls who wear those Crushed velvet bodysuits with a big belt and a baggy jean. That sounds good. Super cute. But I did wear one out of the storm. Sorry, Betsy. This was like something I did in New York, but I would justify it. Like, my mom put me in a private school that she couldn't afford, and she would work in the office to pay off the tuition. And I was going to school with Louise Bourgeois, granddaughter. We don't own the brownstone. My mom had an apartment on the top of this brownstone. And it's like if we went to the Gap, we would get the slouchy socks, but I couldn't get an outfit. I felt like there was something unfair about this. I'm being subjected to this influx of wealth and money or being inundated by this in a way that I can't compete. And what I didn't have was conversations with my mom about what that was and values. And even if I did, I don't know that it would have registered for me at that age in terms of it being meaningful. I just knew I didn't have something that I wanted. It was the language spoken amongst the people I was with, and they hadn't earned it. They were just getting it because their parents had it. And so I felt like, I'm gonna take these songs, and it's not something I'm proud of to this day. And of course, if I had a child, I would not encourage. Once I stole something I remember from a store in the West Village when I was very young, and my mother made me go back and give it to them. And I remember exactly, like, what I was wearing and how itchy my coat was and. And crying and just being so mortified. But it was just that feeling of, am I owed? So I do understand psychologically why Linda Tripp, why I don't categorize her as a bad person. I categorize her as a limited person who did the best she could with what she knew about what life was. And it was only through the lens, which we all do to a degree. It takes a certain kind of enlightenment, a certain kind of self awareness to take your own blinders off. We all put everything through the filter of this person did X. To me, based on my particular makeup and history, it feels like X. But to someone else, you're like, oh, that doesn't feel like a big deal. And you're like, yeah. But to me, if I was left alone a lot as a child, which I was, and by myself all the time, and I rely on you to be Here at a certain time and you're not there. It feels to me like you're rejecting me, even though you just had a thing happen. That for someone else it would not be a situation, but for me it would be.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Nothing's really real. It's all subjective.

[Sarah Paulson]

Exactly. So in terms of relationships, that's the thing I might carry in, or one carries in, is like, whatever you've experienced in your life, and it's up to you to process it and figure it out. I had a shrink once say to my partner and I, just because you didn't mean to trigger somebody doesn't mean you didn't. There may be wires around that you think you're stepping over. You didn't actually step over it. Like, your intention sometimes is important to know, but it doesn't always render you innocent.

[Dax Shepard]

Being on the correct high ground isn't the solution correct.

[Sarah Paulson]

It does matter that you didn't mean to. That matters to me.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

Are you all right?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't want to cough on this with my coughing. Do I choke within a Michigan accent?

[Sarah Paulson]

You do.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Sarah Paulson]

You sure do. You're like.

[Dax Shepard]

I wonder if I can cough if I'm a Brooklyn guy.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, that's good. Now if you're Southern, give me another one.

[Monica Padman]

Really good.

[Dax Shepard]

Really good.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my.

[Sarah Paulson]

Really good French. Like, you're a French. This is really good.

[Dax Shepard]

We've invented a new improv. Okay, so you always wanted to be a performer. And is LaGuardia High School. Is that what Fame is?

[Sarah Paulson]

It is. Although I refuse to call it laguardia, which is where I went.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Sarah Paulson]

I always call it Performing Arts because that's what it was. When it was over on 46th Street, I believe, which was the original building. They moved it, expanded it, made it larger, and it still was the performing arts high school of the Fame days, but it was given the name the fellow H. LaGuardia.

[Dax Shepard]

And you went to the bigger version?

[Sarah Paulson]

I went to the bigger version. And so it was like, I'm at LaGuardia. It's like, I'm at the airport. Like, I just was not my favorite thing. There was a separate school called Professional Children's School, which is where Sarah Michelle Geller went. She did a TV show called Swan's Crossing back in the day. This was like pre Buffy, people who were working and who could fax their homework in, I think. And I'm saying that as a person who didn't go there, but I'm assuming they send their homework in via fax. Whereas this was the school where you Were not really encouraged to work professionally. But it was the fame school. But there was no dancing on a table, unfortunately.

[Dax Shepard]

How much were the students aware of it? What year did that show air? It had already aired one year.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, yes. Because I went in in 89 and graduated 83.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it kind of exciting to go to a school that there's a show about?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes. Although the show was already on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Still.

[Sarah Paulson]

And the movie, it was cool. And also, you have to audition to get in. 3000 kids auditioned at the time. I went and 60 kids were accepted to the drama department. Oh, my God. So, like, that was really cool and fun and great. Although I didn't go to school a lot. I was in the Central park meadow and smoking so much pot.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. Good for you.

[Sarah Paulson]

So much pot. Which I now can't smoke because I feel like I have to go to Cedar Sinai every time. I'm like, I can probably do it now. And it's like, I can't do it now.

[Dax Shepard]

You think you're can't breathe and stuff. You get, like, paranoia.

[Sarah Paulson]

Not the drug for me.

[Dax Shepard]

You should try cocaine. Have you tried?

[Sarah Paulson]

I really liked that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Especially for a lonely kid.

[Monica Padman]

I was like.

[Sarah Paulson]

And also. Yeah, attention. I look in the mirror, be like, there is no one more beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Sarah Paulson]

No one else. No one more powerful.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

No, more. More beautiful. No more powerful. No more funny person.

[Dax Shepard]

That's why the drug is so good. People's going, why do you like Emma? Because it made me optimistic.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah. It made me feel like the person I wish I was, you know, instantly.

[Dax Shepard]

You should try it.

[Monica Padman]

You'll feel like, I gotta go. I'll be right back.

[Sarah Paulson]

No, I can't do the drugs. Those days are over. I tripped on so much as.

[Dax Shepard]

You were real little druggie.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, yeah. I probably couldn't look at a paisley carpet to this day. I always think there's a cat in the corner or something. I'm always, like, turning be like, did something just move?

[Dax Shepard]

And were you dating in high school? Were you popular? While you think. I usually wait towards the end of the interview for this, but it's striking me so hard that I'm gonna say it now. Do you have a celebrity doppelganger?

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Sarah Paulson]

I have so many celebrities.

[Monica Padman]

You do?

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm going Millie Bobby Brown.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll give you 42 of them. I have 100 million of them.

[Dax Shepard]

But do you want to hear the weirdest thing about Millie Bobby Brown?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So you can picture her really good, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

Cause I know Her a tiny bit.

[Dax Shepard]

You know who I think she looks just like Tom Wilkinson. I know that'll you up, but I pray you look at some pictures of them next to each other. I sent it to Monica. I promise you there's something very weird.

[Sarah Paulson]

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you?

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, I do. Tom Wilkinson. That's really good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[Sarah Paulson]

I've gotten so many people my whole life.

[Dax Shepard]

I think compounded a little bit by how many characters you play.

[Sarah Paulson]

Maybe more. How ordinary I look is sort of what I've decided. I've gotten Elizabeth Perkins from Big.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, sure.

[Sarah Paulson]

I get her a lot. I get. You know, I get a lot. Is Adele all the time. Lana Del Rey. All the time.

[Monica Padman]

I can see Lana Del Rey.

[Sarah Paulson]

You can even Google Sarah Paulson, Adele. And there's like 72 pictures into the degree where people. I had someone come up and asked me if I was Elizabeth Grant, which is Lana Del Rey's name.

[Dax Shepard]

I've had that with Zach Braff my whole life.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes, I really can understand that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's very obvious.

[Sarah Paulson]

Very obvious. Wow, there are so many pictures of me and Adele.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, fun. But you have got Millie. Bobby.

[Sarah Paulson]

Millie Bobby Brown for sure. Especially there was a time on Stranger Things when she had the curly hair and I was playing Marcia Clark. There's pictures of that on the Internet too.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. Wonderful. Okay, well, I'll try to put up some pictures of you and Wilkinson, see if we see any overlap. It's a compliment because he's such a good actor.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And he hasn't died.

[Sarah Paulson]

Didn't he die?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Sarah Paulson]

Did he. Did Tom Wilkinson die? Oh.

[Monica Padman]

Do you have the disease? I have where. I think everyone.

[Sarah Paulson]

Wait, look it up. Right. He did die, right?

[Dax Shepard]

20, 23.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, that's sad.

[Dax Shepard]

His performance in Michael Clayton things.

[Sarah Paulson]

No, she.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no. You got them mixed.

[Monica Padman]

Have to cut that cuz it's not respected.

[Sarah Paulson]

God, I would really love to see Tom Wilkinson playing 11 on Stranger Things.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's.

[Dax Shepard]

He'd nail it. I guarantee he'd nail it.

[Sarah Paulson]

He'd nail anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. I love your career so much because it's a mess. It's such a mess.

[Sarah Paulson]

It is such a mess. I've never heard anybody put it that way, but I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel like of anyone we've interviewed have had so many starts where you had to have thought, finally it's going to get easy. So let's start at the beating because you really quickly, you do hit the ground running. You're 19 in your first Broadway play, which is impressive. And you must have thought, well, fucking buckle up, bitches. Right, Next stop is the Oscars.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's not what happened at all, actually. My first job ever was as an understudy on Broadway. I understudy the great actress Amy Ryan, who is so wonderful. And I got to play it for two weeks. I was 19 years old. I didn't go to college. I. I was like, I'm gonna try to do this. For the first six months. I didn't get a job. I got sisters. Rosenzweig, Wendy Wasserstein play. Understudying Amy Ryan. I went on for two weeks. Then I got a movie with Kathleen Turner. A movie of the week. Remember those called Friends at Last Hallmark? I do a really good Kathleen Turner impression yesterday.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God, you do?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, it's really good. But it's really crazy because this is my Colleen. But it's a very specific kind of Colleen. It's Kathleen now.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Paulson]

Different guy. You have to go listen to him.

[Dax Shepard]

Could we do some Body Heat scenes?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, but I don't know any of the dialogue from that. But it's Kathleen Turner today. Her voice is deeper and richer and even better.

[Monica Padman]

People who do accents kind of scare me.

[Sarah Paulson]

Really. It's like hyper, weird, hyper vigilant weirdness where people notice things that other people aren't really noticing.

[Dax Shepard]

What did you have for breakfast?

[Monica Padman]

I had a salad.

[Sarah Paulson]

A salad for breakfast?

[Monica Padman]

For lunch? I didn't have breakfast.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like the happiest I've seen Monica. Like, years. I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

I feel like this is a little.

[Dax Shepard]

Now it's getting aggressive.

[Sarah Paulson]

You're like, wow, Monica. Normally you're such a bummer.

[Monica Padman]

You're such a bitch.

[Sarah Paulson]

You're such a bitchy bummer.

[Dax Shepard]

She's a dream co worker. But every time I look over at you today, you're like, ear to ear, smiling. It's just really wonderful.

[Monica Padman]

It might be my pink.

[Sarah Paulson]

I am very into your pink sweatshirt.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you. B sides. Shout out.

[Sarah Paulson]

Shout out. They're the greatest company ever, by the way. I'm not kidding. I wear their jeans only. These are beside shoes. Yeah, I noticed them. Monica, relax. Oh, I love this. I noticed them.

[Monica Padman]

I love this.

[Sarah Paulson]

Anyway, back to me. So I. Just kidding.

[Dax Shepard]

No, but you got a Kathleen Turner.

[Sarah Paulson]

The Kathleen Turner movie. I played her daughter. I thought that was going to be a thing. When I look back, I'm like, it was a movie of the week. Like, what did you think was gonna happen? Well, it's huge at that it was a big deal for me. And then I did a pilot called American Gothic. Sean Cassidy created. I turned 21, I think once we went to series, we did a pilot. We did get picked up. And I thought, well, this is it. Cbs.

[Dax Shepard]

Start Mansion Shopping.

[Sarah Paulson]

Start Mansion Shopping. Lived in Wilmington, North Carolina. Thought it was a thing. Canceled. Moved to la. Didn't know how to drive. Got my driver's license here. So I do this pilot with Robert Pastorelli called Cracker. Mirska Hargitay was on it. I'm pretty confident it was Josh Hartnett's first job.

[Monica Padman]

Ooh.

[Sarah Paulson]

And I was his first entre. Screen kiss.

[Monica Padman]

That is such a good claim to fame.

[Sarah Paulson]

He was so handsome. He's still so handsome. I just saw him recently on the set of the Bear, and it was really sweet to see him. And I remember him saying something to my boyfriend at the time, being like, she's a good kisser. And he was like, I'll rip your throat out of. But he might be like, I never said that. Which is totally fair. But that was my memory of it. Again, like I said, it's a big liar.

[Dax Shepard]

We all want to kiss you now. He couldn't even help but brag about it to your boyfriend. Doesn't it sound intrigued? Intriguing?

[Monica Padman]

Very intriguing.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm not gonna lie. It's pretty good.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm pretty good at kissing.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm pretty good at kissing. And not even on cocaine. It's just pretty good at kissing, period.

[Dax Shepard]

You're probably worse on cocaine.

[Sarah Paulson]

Probably worse than kicking. Yeah, exactly. I'm like. I'm so amazing at this.

[Dax Shepard]

Your numb lips.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, exactly. Like, oh. And then I did this pilot, and I thought it was gonna be a thing. I did a couple episodes. Not a thing. Don't. I do a Jack Lemon TV movie.

[Dax Shepard]

Also the 99 to Jack and Jill. That was your first, like, stability.

[Sarah Paulson]

Stability. I got a season and a half or two seasons out of that. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's. That was a five year before you get some real stability.

[Sarah Paulson]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

And again, if I'm you, I'm like, well, cool. I'll probably go from this to the other show that runs for two years or three years. And then we have another. Again, you work 2002. You do leap of Faith with Ken Marino. We love Ken Marino.

[Sarah Paulson]

Love Ken Marino with a passion.

[Dax Shepard]

But again, six episodes, you're, like, stuck in this world of. You do a pilot. Doesn't go, you get six episodes. 2004, nip tuck. This is the first time I see you act. I'm sure oh, so this is where.

[Sarah Paulson]

You first time with Ryan? Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

And so knowing that you did Nuptuck so early in 2000, was that the love connection or did that come later? You were just on the show, didn't meet Ryan.

[Sarah Paulson]

I did meet Ryan. I actually knew Ryan because of Jill Clayberg, who was a wonderful actress who Ryan obviously loved very much. And her best friend was a writer named Jennifer Salt, who was Waldo Salt's daughter, who wrote Midnight Cowboy. Oscar winning screenwriter, and she was a writer on Nip Tuck. And I was friends with them and I was at their house with my girlfriend at the time, Cherry Jones. And we were at Jen Salt's house, and Ryan came over and he was like, I want you guys to be on the show. And Cherry was like, no. And I said yes. And then I did the show. So it was all just people that we knew. So I did have a little bit of an experience with Ryan, but that's not where it happened.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. It's not like he saw that and was like, well, I must work with this person.

[Sarah Paulson]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So then from 2004, we go to the Glass Menagerie. You go on Broadway. That's cool. You're loving that. And then the aforementioned Studio Six60, we get a year out of that.

[Sarah Paulson]

And that was the one everyone thought was gonna happen.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're like, now, fine.

[Sarah Paulson]

Now here it is, I've landed and now we're.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I'm the same age as you now. We're 31. When that gets canceled and you have another little stretch, I mean, really, between 2007, 2011, I'm imagining it's pretty scary.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think I got the spirit. That movie that was also supposed to be a thing, this comic book movie. Sam Jackson, Scarlett Johansson, Eva Mendes, Frank Miller, direct. Like, we thought it was going to be a thing. It was essentially like a comic book movie, and I was the girl in it. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What's your personal story at this point?

[Sarah Paulson]

This is one of those things where when you're inside it, it certainly feels like things are happening. There's enough stuff going on where it feels like there's interest and the world feels, in retrospect, like it was much smaller in terms of the group of actresses that were auditioning for things that now, now it just feels so saturated. I don't know how anybody makes their way, but it's a funny, weird thing. And I'm not a particularly spiritual person. I'm not a religious person. And some of this is a little bit about my sister Elizabeth, who is a Little bit psychic. And she was like, this isn't going to happen for you until you're older. I didn't put, like, a ton of stock in it until when I was, like, 38 or 39 and things started to really change. And I was like, was this bitch right about this? But it was also inside of me. I had some weird, weird. And for no reason, because I was not being told by the universe in any concrete way you were going to be fine. But I think I had some weird belief.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I argue something right now?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

It's going to be impossible for you to respond to, but I'm wondering if that difference is that you actually knew you were really good. Because I was in those spots. And I have to tell you, my own confidence wavered in those spots. I'm wondering if it came from the fact that you knew in your heart you were fucking great at this.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think it's possible that you're not wrong in one way that I wanna make very clear. I think I believed I could be. I don't think I thought I was because I had pockets and moments of things where certain people were responding to my work. I was getting feedback from, like, Steven Spielberg. He wanted me to do this pilot. And there was, like, this pilot war between these two creators. And, like, was I gonna do this Spielberg one? And then, of course, neither one of them went and nothing happened with it. But I remember getting some kind of information, or even when I work with Jack Lemmon, him saying to me, don't ever for how good you are, you know? And I was really young and I didn't know what I was doing. That was all maybe just instinct and had nothing to do with a craft or anything that I knew anything about. So I think I was getting just enough feedback from people that seemed to really know that I thought maybe I was capable of something. And I was always an impressionist. I was always a person who would do these wild characters that people at stupid parties would be like, sarah, do your thing. And so I felt a little bit like there was some I had to offer that just hadn't been tapped yet that I wasn't even aware of, but I thought could be in there. And I don't know entirely why. It certainly wasn't in the work I was doing. I don't look at anything I did back then and go, that was really special. But I did get the Glass Menagerie, even though the production was not well received opposite Jessica Lang. When all of these girls my age, some of whom have Oscars now were auditioning for this, and for some reason, they picked me, and I don't know why, and I don't even think I was particularly good in that play. So there was something in the back of my brain that was like, just wait, and I don't know why. And also, there's nothing else that I ever wanted to do.

[Dax Shepard]

What was happening financially? Were you frugal? Were you able to weather these pockets or.

[Sarah Paulson]

Never learned how to deal with money, ever? I remember telling a business manager once, please let me know when I get down to this amount. And they never did. And then I had $10,000 to my name, and I had no job. And then that was right when I got game change, 12 Years of Slave and the first season of American Horror story.

[Monica Padman]

You had $10,000 in $10,000.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's horrifying. Yeah, it was really scary when I think about it now. Do you know an actress named Carla Gallo? She's in all these Judd Apatow movies, and she's currently on Platonic with Seth Rogen. And we have friends that are friends with her. She's my friend since I'm 11 years old. We went to high school together, although we weren't in the same friend group, which is why I didn't mention her before, and so she can't be offended about that. Carla Gallo is not smoking pot in the meadow, let's put it that way. But she helped me write my first.

[Dax Shepard]

When you say the meadow, are you talking about Sheep's Meadow?

[Sarah Paulson]

Sheep's Meadow, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I was just there. What a place.

[Sarah Paulson]

I smoked a lot of pot there.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a great place to smoke pot. It really is very wide open.

[Sarah Paulson]

Let it rip. Carly Gallup taught me how to write my first check because I was in Sisters. Rosenzweig. I was making money. I was still living at home, but I didn't know how to write a check. I remember paying for my first headshots and writing it out of my checking account, and Carla was with me, and she had to tell me where the zeros went. I just didn't know where. She did a show called Carnaval on HBO back then and bought her first house. I had done, at that point, so many shows that went and didn't go, but I could have bought it, and I never. Courage, me. I bought my first house in 2016. Money was not something I knew what to do with or how to deal with it. I'm still not great with it. We didn't really have a lot of it. It wasn't part of the curriculum in the house.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that feels healthy, though. Maybe my wife says, what? You can end up fucked. When I first met her, I was like, hold on a second. How much money you got in the bank?

[Sarah Paulson]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

But there's something very, very healthy about the version I have is unhealthy.

[Monica Padman]

It's a bad.

[Sarah Paulson]

Well, because I think if I had known more, I wouldn't have been waiting for my business manager to say when I got to this certain number, if I were opening the things that were coming to my house with the reports on what I had, I would have known. Now, however, when I found out I had that much in the bank, I was able to live off. I found a way. But I had to go to my landlord, who was really, really sweet and someone I'm still friends with to this day, and say, can I pay a little less between job?

[Dax Shepard]

You know?

[Sarah Paulson]

And she was so wonderful with me, and I got very lucky that way. Because that is not a common response when someone says, I can't make the rent. But it was right then when things changed.

[Monica Padman]

But now you have a house on Architectural Digest.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, that's true.

[Monica Padman]

I saw it. And I was just talking to Katherine about this. I think maybe we have Nikki Kehoe. We share a designer.

[Sarah Paulson]

Is that your person?

[Monica Padman]

My designer?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah. I love her. She's a genius.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, she's a genius.

[Sarah Paulson]

And their store here is the best store in town to go to. You can't go in without buying stuff. It's really a problem.

[Monica Padman]

You want to live there.

[Sarah Paulson]

I know. And I'm like, why didn't we do this with my living room? I want to just tear the whole thing down and start over.

[Dax Shepard]

See, that's the problem, you guys. The second you've completed your thing, you have to unfollow her.

[Monica Padman]

No, I can't.

[Dax Shepard]

The problem is just finding out there's new stuff.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, there's new stuff. It looks better.

[Dax Shepard]

I have it with cars. Every year they put more horsepower in all these cars I like. So every year I'm like, God, they added more horsepower. I got. I get this. This would be better if I never found out they added more horsepower.

[Sarah Paulson]

Same thing with clothes and shoes and bags. I mean, besides, call me.

[Dax Shepard]

So once you get it, call us.

[Sarah Paulson]

Call us.

[Dax Shepard]

You just. You gotta unple.

[Monica Padman]

Just keep buying more houses so that.

[Dax Shepard]

You can get convinced that she peaked. She never evolved past this, and I had. She perfected it and then quit and.

[Monica Padman]

Went downhill from there.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so the crazy ride starts in 2011. You do American Horror Story. You do three episodes in the first season, but then you come back for the second horror story, Asylum, and you play a totally different character. You get nominated for an Emmy. You also do 12 Years a Slave. You do American Horror Story, Coven. You play a witch. And then, game change.

[Sarah Paulson]

Nominated for Emmys for all of those. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Bonkers.

[Sarah Paulson]

Self congratulatory.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, no.

[Monica Padman]

It's also timely. They were last night.

[Sarah Paulson]

They were last night. Yeah, guys, I was there.

[Dax Shepard]

They were a while ago.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, yeah, they were a while ago.

[Dax Shepard]

They were in the past. I just wanted to talk about one aspect of listening to you talk about all these different projects. I think the situation you were in was compounded because we just happen to interview her. But you a have to play a terrible racist person, which is rough just going in there and delivering that. I got offered once to play a Nazi. We should see the characters that exist on planet Earth. But I got offered that thing while I was also on a TV show and I had a black son and I spent every day with him. And I was like, the notion of him seeing me in this movie talking like that, that ended up for me being the thing. But anyways, it would be hard. And then doing it to Lita, who we just interviewed, uniquely terrible feeling when you're doing it.

[Sarah Paulson]

It was hor. It was a very hard day, the fact that Lupita and I had become sweet friends because we didn't know any other way to do it. We just talked about it. We were like, so today we're going to have to do the bit where I scratched your face. Today we have to do the bit where I throw the crystal decanter at your face. And we would talk about it. It wasn't easy. The only thing, and it goes back to the Linda Tripp thing, which was, I have to find a way. I do have a friend, a good friend, a very successful friend, who said no to Even auditioning for 12 Years of Slave because she was like, I don't want to play that person. I really understand that. But for me, as an actor, also for the good of the story, you cannot tell that story completely without the hideous behavior of the white people in our country at that time.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, to make her story that much.

[Sarah Paulson]

More important, you have to really show the brutality of it and the callous, unflinching behavior of the woman I was playing. She was also a product. This is not an excuse at all, but a product of her time. But what it really meant was this was a person who was not interested in doing Any deep dive or any crime about what she was being taught. And there are some people in life who would go, wait a minute. Steve McQueen, who was their director, was just like, it is vitally important to me that you do not judge her. He never was gonna do a take of me by the sink, wiping away a tear, going, I can't believe I just did this. He was not gonna do that. So he's like, don't try to ingratiate yourself to the audience. And it was a wonderful early lesson for me to think about that. Even with the play I just did, playing a person who's really rough to be around, you can't apologize for these people who know not what they do. It's not a play about or a movie about a person who disguises, discovers the hideousness of their behavior. That's not their story. In order to let the storytelling really land where it should land, you have a responsibility.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay? Now, I don't fantasize about playing, say, a white nationalist, but I do fantasize about playing someone like, let's say, Nicholson in As Good as It Gets Grumpy, and telling people to just shut up and fuck off and get out of here. Because I do want to do that really bad. I would love to walk through life one day. Fuck you. Get away from you're stupid.

[Monica Padman]

Fuck off.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, that voice is in my head. And I would enjoy playing someone who got to behave that way.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

I gotta tell you, it's really fun, I would imagine. I mean, I just did that in the play. Just very little patience for anyone. And people are always like, do you hear yourself? And she's like, no, I don't care. It was a really kind of liberating thing to do.

[Dax Shepard]

And maybe a little glance into the future of when you're 70 and you.

[Sarah Paulson]

Don'T give a shit. Exactly. Oh, God. I mean, I hope not, because it's also kind of miserable way to live.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. I think maybe that's fun to tap into, but I don't think you'd like, especially as people who want approval. That's not how you get approval.

[Sarah Paulson]

Approval.

[Monica Padman]

So I think that would only last for so long.

[Sarah Paulson]

I guess you're right.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I'll be nice.

[Sarah Paulson]

Monica, feel free to try it.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll keep being nice. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by Wayfair. Oh, my goodness, I love Wayfair. My feet are on a Wayfair coffee table right now that I'm in love with. I cannot believe the holidays are just around the corner. If you're hosting this holiday season, it's definitely that time where you need to start prepping the house to make things festive but also functional for your guests. Wayfair is the place to get great deals on things your home actually needs this time of year. Cozier blankets, maybe a few extra dining chairs, Holiday serveware. You name it, they have it. If you've been eyeing a few things on Wayfair, now is the time to get them. They have huge holiday deals going on right now and you can get up to 70% off during their Black Friday deals. That's huge. 70%.

[Monica Padman]

As you said, we have a coffee table, we have side tables in the studio. This whole place is Wayfair.

[Dax Shepard]

We are decked out. Wayfair also offers free and easy shipping, even on the big stuff, and they'll help you set it up. One less thing to worry about this busy season. Don't miss out on saving big with Wayfair this holiday. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals. That's W A Y f a I r.com we are supported by 23andMe/Total Health advocating for your health and the personalized care you need and deserve in today's one size fits all health care system. Feels and possible. 23andMe + total health is a longevity platform that uses cutting edge genetic testing and blood biomarker analysis to help you create a health plan that's unique to you. With their advanced genetic screening, you'll get access to insights into your potential future disease risks which can help lead to early detection and even prevention.

[Monica Padman]

23Andme is how we learned about misophonia.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Monica Padman]

It's how we gave it credit.

[Dax Shepard]

And I just ordered a supplemental test that already was there. They just had to analyze it for our ISAAC and panels. With 23 me plus total health, you get comprehensive blood testing beyond routine labs, which can help you get a better understanding of how your health is changing throughout the year. Best of all, it's FSAHSA eligible. Check with your administrator to confirm eligibility. Advocate for your health today. Go to 23me.comdax to receive 10% off. That's 10% off at 23andme.comdax we are supported by SKIMS. If you're in the market for holiday presents, SKIMS has got you covered.

[Monica Padman]

Boy, do they. They just launched their holiday shop with some incredible gift ideas. You know I like giving you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, you're a gift expert and you approve.

[Monica Padman]

I Do. And when I gave for a white elephant, I gave a skims robe once before. It was a huge hit.

[Dax Shepard]

It was stolen immediately. Immediately.

[Monica Padman]

And they do. They have this amazing soft lounge sleep set from the skims hall holiday shop. Really cute seasonal colors. It's so nice to get festive and get in your skims and bop around.

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta have vent eyes.

[Sarah Paulson]

You gotta.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so fun. And who doesn't love a gift list? It makes holiday shopping that much easier. Shop skims holiday [e-mail] available in styles for women, men, kids and even pets. If you haven't yet, be sure to let them know we sent you. After you place your orders, select podcast in the survey and select our show in the drop down menu that that follows. Okay. For me, American Horror Story feels like the perfect show to be in forever because you get to do something new every single time. It's like the security of a long running show, but also no boredom or stagnation. Is that the case?

[Sarah Paulson]

That's exactly right.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so at this point I would like you to tell me, when does this love affair start? Do you know the moment it happens? Is it something that grows? When do you become his muse? Or what would we call you in Ryan Murphy's?

[Sarah Paulson]

I don't know what he would call it, but we certainly have had an incredible collaborative creative experience. One for the record books like you.

[Dax Shepard]

Think of the great duos.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, I think I'm a good interpreter of his point of view. To me, it always sort of lives in the world of extremes. You know, my mother called me Sarah Bernhardt for a reason as a tiny child, which on one level is a little. Not to say it's abusive, but it's like it did kind of tell me very, from a very early age that my feelings were a little too big. You have too much. It's too much. It's too dramatic. It can't really be that it's histrionic. I mean, child services was called on my mother because she wouldn't let me wear a necklace to a friend's bat mitzvah. And I was screaming, why are you doing this to me? Why are you doing this to me?

[Dax Shepard]

And you reported her.

[Sarah Paulson]

I did not report her. The neighbors reported her. No way. Yeah, because they were like, something's happening. I was screaming, why? Why are you doing this to me? Why are you doing this to me? Pounding my, you know, my mom just being like, jesus, it's a necklace. And I was like, well, but everyone at the party has something on that is fancy, and I don't have any. And instead of saying that, because I didn't know that that was actually the crux.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel less than. You would have destroyed her.

[Sarah Paulson]

I am not enough. Give me your amethyst crystal necklace. That makes me feel cool and fancy. And so I do recognize that I have a flair for the dramatic. And that what I would really say, if I were a parent to myself, is you're very in touch with what you feel, and you have a real connection to those things. They feel very, very real to you. They're on tattoo. They're really right there. How wonderful that you can identify them and express them, which is not what my mother was doing. She was like Sarah Bernhardt.

[Dax Shepard]

But she's in her 20s.

[Sarah Paulson]

She's in her 20s. We forgive her. We forgive her. She's working on starting.

[Monica Padman]

She's listening. Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

So.

[Monica Padman]

Hi, Mom.

[Sarah Paulson]

So I think the truth is, for the Ryan thing, it actually happened very organically. It was actually a Jessica Lange thing, which is that I went to a benefit for Project Angel Food with Jessica, who was in town to do the first season of American Horror Story. I was supposed to go do a play with Kevin Kline that fell apart at the last minute. So I ended up staying. I went with her to this event. Ryan was there, and she just sort of threw her arm around me and said, can't you find something for her to do on the show? Because it would be fun if we could do stuff together. Because we became friends after glass Menagerie in 2000. And so he went, hmm, you know, I actually maybe have something. And it was to play this psychic on the first season of the show. And I played her friend who was a psychic. I did three episodes. And for whatever reason, this is the part that is always going to be a mystery to me because I've asked him, and he's like, I don't know that I have an answer for you. Which is. He then threw me the lead, essentially, in the second season.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

For me, the greatest experience of American Horror Story ever was that season in particular. It was just so special to me. But I don't know why he gave me this. It just was one of those things again where I just go, I don't know. And he's like, I don't actually know.

[Dax Shepard]

I am very intimidated by him because he is not overly expressive.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's true.

[Dax Shepard]

He's not effusive. And for an approval junkie.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, I understand.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, wake your face up. I'm giving You a lot of good shit.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

So for me, he's kind of kryptonite. And I feel like you and I are kind of similar. So how do you.

[Sarah Paulson]

He and I, we're 10 years apart. It's a little bit different.

[Dax Shepard]

But you're a woman, so you're probably four years apart.

[Sarah Paulson]

Four years apart, exactly. And I think we are very alike in a funny. We're kind of exacting and brimming with ideas and very loyal. And I understand exactly what you're saying. And there are a lot of people I know who ask me this question, who say, I don't understand how this relationship has lasted as long as it's lasted. Because he seems so scary. And you seem like one of us who's just over here going, like me, like me, like me. We had enough time together socially, where we got on like a house afire. I just made him laugh, you know, it's one of those weird things, like, why do you fall in love with the person you fall in love with? Or. I understand from the outside that he looks a particular way to people, but when I'm one on one with Ryan, and traditionally, when it's one on one, he is the most supportive, generous. The way he talked about waiting to see if I was going to win that Tony, when he called me to say I almost had a fucking heart attack waiting because they waited till the last 20 minutes of the show, he was like. I was flipping out. And he said he just, like, stood right out of his chair when they called my name, and he just wants things for me.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it possible that you're living out loud in a way that he would love to do, but for whatever reason, that's not how he does it.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think it might have more to do with the fact that he knows deep down that he is the reason why I have the very messy career that I have, that he is responsible for basically giving me my artistic life. And I wonder if knowing that, that you feel a responsibility and also a pride and also a sense of having a really good picker. I bet on something that delivered.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, big time.

[Sarah Paulson]

A lot of people wanted to play Marcia Clark, and for whatever reason, he decided it should be me. And it changed my life. I think there's just some part of him that saw something in me, and I think I've said this publicly that was sort of to the point of what we were talking about earlier, of deep down, I think I knew I was capable of something. I didn't know what. And I think he knew What I was capable of by virtue of him saying, you get on the field. I had to get out on the field and take the ball and. And go running. And I did. And he said, I knew it.

[Dax Shepard]

Now we're gonna do this again.

[Sarah Paulson]

And now we're gonna do this again and again and again and again.

[Dax Shepard]

Has there been one where he called and wanted you to do it and you didn't want to do it?

[Sarah Paulson]

Not once.

[Monica Padman]

Also, some people are soulmates. I believe that.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think it's true. Because there's no question. People always say this to me about him, and it's true. And I sometimes look at him, I'm like, why aren't you smiling? You know? And he's like, this is me smiling. And I'm like, right? I know.

[Monica Padman]

And you get to say that to him. And other people don't necessarily get to say that.

[Sarah Paulson]

But I think the truth is I find him to be a very warm, supportive, generous, wonderful friend who has given me a real embarrassment of riches in my professional life, and personally, too. If I could never work with him again, that would be okay, but I wouldn't not want him in my life as a friend. That is an important thing. I learned recently about our relationship.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I didn't even count them up. But it's gotta be between. You've done nine of the 10 seasons of Horror Story, and then you've done three crime stories. You did Impeachment. You did O.J. only two.

[Sarah Paulson]

Only two crime stories.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're about to do a third thing. So we're in the teens.

[Sarah Paulson]

I did Nip Tuck for him. I did a pilot for him that didn't go. I did Feud.

[Dax Shepard]

You're in, like, the 15 plus.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, we've done a lot of stuff together.

[Dax Shepard]

You're so fine on your own. You two created all this great stuff together. But do you think, God, I hope he works forever, because I want to work forever in his stuff.

[Sarah Paulson]

I do think that because I understand what he's going for, which I think is a lot of the work. And I just think I'm the right actress for it because I got a lot of big feelings. They are often put to good use in his stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you guys both have outcast syndrome?

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

You were the poor girl at the rich school. He was a gay dude in straight America.

[Sarah Paulson]

I mean, you'd have to ask him that.

[Dax Shepard]

I will. I'll earmark it.

[Sarah Paulson]

But I definitely feel sort of like.

[Dax Shepard]

Outside, it's a good feeling to preserve, even if it's a lie at this.

[Sarah Paulson]

Point we were talking about before you got here. Way before, way before you got here.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. The only other thing I wanted to talk about before we talk about. Hold your breath. Well, I loved O.J. by the way. It was so good. You were so unbelievably good in that.

[Sarah Paulson]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

It really added the dimensions to her that she deserved. I even felt as a young 20 something boy, a lot of this stuff that was really crazy, misogynistic. It blew over my head when I was watching Late Night and they were calling Monica Lewinsky a fat slut, literally using those words on tv. It didn't bump for me. Embarrassingly, I watch it now. I'm like, oh, my God. I was watching all this stuff. None of it sounded crazy to me, but maybe because of my single mother or something, that one felt wrong while it was happening. The scrutiny on her hair and the things that were happening to her felt very gendered and not fair. And so I felt like you gave her her day. Have you ever met her?

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you have?

[Monica Padman]

You work closely with her.

[Sarah Paulson]

Nobody wanted me to talk to her before we started, even though I was desperate to. So I didn't do that. But then after I finished the Marcia, Marcia, Marcia episode, which was the episode that was about Marcia, he said, you've done it now. You can talk to her if you want. And so I sent her an email and we had dinner that was like a seven hour dinner. It was very special. You know, I brought her with me to the Emmys and I know that for her it was very scary at first. She had never been properly treated in the press. She had an enormous trauma. And I think it was really a very scary idea to imagine 20 years later seeing buses and billboards of that trial and that glove and the name O.J. simpson all over. And then there's something about documentaries versus these limited series things where somehow it feels more real to people that whatever people are putting forward in the limited series is fact. And so, like, somehow putting it forward, she was like, I don't know what it's going to be out there about me. You're telling me that it's not going to be anti me, but I don't know that I believe that. I remember just feeling such an enormous.

[Dax Shepard]

Responsibility and a relief that she was happy to have dinner with you.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, I was very relieved. She's happy to have dinner with me.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that was so great. But the thing I wanted to say that I just absolutely loved, it might be my favorite thing, but it's scary to say, because he's done so much great stuff about Ratchet. Oh, my God.

[Sarah Paulson]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

I loved Ratchet. Oh, scratching.

[Sarah Paulson]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

That surprise you?

[Sarah Paulson]

It does.

[Dax Shepard]

I have no access to any data, but I was shocked I wasn't hearing more people talk about that.

[Sarah Paulson]

It was as far as I understand, because I was an EP on that, so I got to be on all these calls with Netflix. I was like, this is how this happens. It was absolutely successful. We were picked up for a second season that was happening. It was pandemic time. And by the time it came around again to think about doing it, Ryan was so busy and all the actors had scattered, and it just felt like, what do we do here? Or do we let this sort of stand on its own?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not happy with what you guys decided at all. No.

[Sarah Paulson]

You know, it's funny. When I was doing the play, so many people, when they were waiting outside to say hi to me, were talking about, when is Ratchet coming back?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it's so interesting.

[Sarah Paulson]

I loved.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel like visually it was the best.

[Sarah Paulson]

I mean, this is the thing Ryan does with these. Douglas Cirque, paint the costumes I loved doing.

[Dax Shepard]

And my boyfriend's D'Onofrios.

[Sarah Paulson]

I love him.

[Dax Shepard]

God, I'm pissed now. I'm leaving today. I'm sorry. With the resentment, because there could have been a season two.

[Sarah Paulson]

There could have been. There was a kind of cool idea that he had that the show would run up until she entered the cuckoo's nest.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Sarah Paulson]

You know?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. It was such a neat idea to do.

[Sarah Paulson]

Such a very smart idea.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm really mad about that.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm very sorry, Dax.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Sarah Paulson]

Sorry, I can't fix that for you.

[Dax Shepard]

Peachment. Linda Tripp. We talked about it. I loved it. Nominated again. So many Emmys, so little time. And then, of course, last year, you do appropriate and you want a Tony. An Anthony, as I call them.

[Sarah Paulson]

I have an Anthony.

[Dax Shepard]

Of these awards you've won, is that the one? Probably, yeah. Those are more versions. Valuable, right?

[Sarah Paulson]

I don't know if they're more valuable to.

[Dax Shepard]

They must less of them.

[Sarah Paulson]

They give out fewer of them is the correct way to say that.

[Monica Padman]

This is the second time that I've done that twice.

[Sarah Paulson]

I didn't go to college and I just have a real.

[Dax Shepard]

But neither of us can spell Parmesan.

[Sarah Paulson]

Parmesan. I can't spell anything. That is the truth.

[Dax Shepard]

Same.

[Sarah Paulson]

I can't conjugate a verb. I don't know what a preposition is. I am adult, but I can tell you one Thing I know, when it's fewer and less.

[Dax Shepard]

Someone beat that one.

[Sarah Paulson]

No, it's because I understand it. You have fewer cars on the road. You don't have less cars. So it's about when it's numbers or you've eaten fewer steaks. You haven't eaten less steaks. Think about how that sounds.

[Dax Shepard]

I love that. Your explanation of the differences. Just saying the words out loud and see how different they are. You would not be the best teacher.

[Sarah Paulson]

So true.

[Dax Shepard]

As charismatic as you are.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's true.

[Dax Shepard]

But if you just stand in front of them and see. See how dumb this sounds? Fewer steaks.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Less steak.

[Sarah Paulson]

Sounds like a dumb bunny.

[Monica Padman]

Find a way to poke a hole in this.

[Sarah Paulson]

You won't be able to.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not going to stand up to.

[Sarah Paulson]

Not going to stand up. Fewer cars in the parking lot where you. I'm less afraid. You're not fewer afraid.

[Dax Shepard]

Now you're on to something. Chase that down a little further.

[Monica Padman]

That's not a number.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, you're less handsome. You're not fewer handsome. It's a quantity.

[Dax Shepard]

I still think you can say they hand out less awards at the Tonys. I'm sorry, I'm.

[Sarah Paulson]

I mean, you can. You did and you did. But it's better to say fewer people's ears. To me, the Tony matters more. There are few fewer plays. There are fewer opportunities to win them. It makes it harder, therefore, to get.

[Monica Padman]

Fewer cars in the parking lot.

[Sarah Paulson]

Fewer cars in the parking lot.

[Monica Padman]

The Tonys.

[Dax Shepard]

Fewer steaks served at the Starties.

[Sarah Paulson]

Fewer steaks served at the Sardis. We came all the way around. Came all the way back around, guys. We did it also. I was an actress in New York wanting to be on Broadway.

[Dax Shepard]

You have all the letters of an E got with the Oscar.

[Sarah Paulson]

I don't have a Grammy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you don't have a Grammy. Let's get going.

[Monica Padman]

So you have two out of five.

[Sarah Paulson]

Can we get one for this episode?

[Monica Padman]

We're trying.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm angling for a Peabody, which I don't understand why, what it is, but I feel like we're capable of getting. Does that make sense?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, I do just about as much sense as my fewer.

[Dax Shepard]

And yes, I could imagine never having even set my sights on an Oscar, but by God, if I got the E and the G and the T, my OCD would be like, this is incomplete. Now we must get this fucking Oscar.

[Monica Padman]

You're getting an Oscar?

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, I don't know about that.

[Dax Shepard]

Rob, present her her Oscar.

[Monica Padman]

That I feel fairly. I'd like your Sister, I have psychic abilities.

[Sarah Paulson]

You do?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But you're a singer. You told us so. The Grammy might be further.

[Monica Padman]

That one's going to be trickier. But you can do like an audio book or something.

[Sarah Paulson]

But then I feel like. It feels like a grab.

[Monica Padman]

Doesn't matter.

[Sarah Paulson]

Got to take 20 stabs at an audio book just to try to get it. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Also you're like, oh, how embarrassing. My egot was calculated and suck this dick.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that would be my. Take it how you can get it.

[Dax Shepard]

So what, Am I right or am I right? What?

[Sarah Paulson]

I got it and you don't. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Why don't you go do a layup.

[Sarah Paulson]

And try to get a E? Got any way this so easy.

[Dax Shepard]

Go for it.

[Sarah Paulson]

You fucking think you can make it happen any old way and fucking.

[Dax Shepard]

Why don't you jerk yourself off while.

[Sarah Paulson]

You'Re around and jerk your dad off too, Jim.

[Dax Shepard]

You're fucking.

[Sarah Paulson]

Fucking dope.

[Monica Padman]

We don't get it, Grammy, for what just happened.

[Sarah Paulson]

Go call your mother for me, okay?

[Dax Shepard]

She's gonna have to pull her. I'm not even gonna finish that. You know where I was.

[Sarah Paulson]

You know what I was gonna do?

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Should we run a black box theater? You and I get suggestions?

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, I'd like to just throw something at us. Let's see what we can do.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

Let's get wild. See what happens.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

We put a box in the middle of the room. Just put a bunch of things. And people have to pick it out and we have to do. We have to act it out.

[Dax Shepard]

Serpent.

[Monica Padman]

Go, go. Oh, my God. I feel like I need to leave.

[Sarah Paulson]

What if I was a serpent who smoke?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'll meet you in the garden.

[Monica Padman]

Serpent.

[Dax Shepard]

Eat the sample.

[Sarah Paulson]

Eat it.

[Dax Shepard]

I save original sin. Okay, great. Next one is an aardvark.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

I have to say stop now and let's move forward.

[Sarah Paulson]

Monica, Be like, shut up.

[Dax Shepard]

If you and I got a bag of coke together.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

We'd have to be in a huge field. Bigger than Sheep's Meadow.

[Sarah Paulson]

We'd probably be in a big, huge field. Or a padded room of some kind. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Lots of water, too.

[Sarah Paulson]

So much water. We're gonna have to lollipop. We've got plans.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Tony, congratulations.

[Sarah Paulson]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

So to wrap up the sardines.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, we know where it's in. Yeah, it's very obvious.

[Sarah Paulson]

Very obvious.

[Dax Shepard]

She set that wall in accident. She was delivering a baked Alaska and set the whole wall. No, but you went with your mom and you got a caricature they gave.

[Sarah Paulson]

Me a caricature and the greatest. I just said the greatest. It's a new word. Fewer craters. So we walked into the room and the guy who owns Sardis now is the man who hired my mother.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Paulson]

He only worked in the downstairs lounge at Sardis back when my mom worked there. And they saw each other. Of course, my mom remembers. And he said to her, we did all right, didn't we? And it was really sweet. My mom was very, very moved. And then I got to thank my mom in front of all these people. And I just like to state for the record, it looks so much better than what I look like. It looks like Jodie Comer and Winona Ryder had a baby. It does not look like me at all.

[Dax Shepard]

No Wilkinson, no Wilkinson.

[Sarah Paulson]

No Wilkinson, no Millie Beebe. There's no Adele. There's no Lana Del Rey in it. There's no Elizabeth Shue. There's no Elizabeth Perkins in it. It is simply Jodie Comer went on a rider. Two very attractive people. I don't look like them.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't fare well in characters.

[Sarah Paulson]

I've had a couple. Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. The nose, which is already a lot, they can't resist. They go apeshit with the nose.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah. They just made my eyes really big. And I don't think I have.

[Dax Shepard]

Lovely, though.

[Sarah Paulson]

It was very moving.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, let's talk about. Hold your breath.

[Sarah Paulson]

Hold it.

[Dax Shepard]

First, let's set the stage. And then I'm going to ask you some historical questions that I ran out of time to answer myself. But set in the 30s in Oklahoma.

[Sarah Paulson]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

And this is the Dust Bowl.

[Sarah Paulson]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

What is the Dust Bowl?

[Sarah Paulson]

The Dust bowl is a man made event that I think we as a country were responsible for because of how much we were overturning the earth, because of how many crops and how much wheat and corn and all the things that the country was making a big fat buck off of.

[Dax Shepard]

And they didn't understand rotating crops yet. They didn't know how to replenish the soil.

[Sarah Paulson]

They ruined it. And then in a part of the country that the movie takes place, the Oklahoma Panhandle, there's not a mountain or a hill in sight. There are no trees. There's nothing to stop the ground itself from lifting up into the air if there's any weather element of any kind. And then what happens when you can't farm, you can't grow anything, you can't irrigate, there's no rain. Is that all you do is have this loose ground everywhere? But you also means you can't feed your animals, which means you can't get milk from a cow, you can't feed your chickens. Everything collapses. And then you have no food, you have no water, you have no way of getting any.

[Dax Shepard]

In the Steinbeck novels, they're always escaping.

[Sarah Paulson]

The dust bowl, trying to move away from it. But in that part of the world, there's very few places you can go where you're not encountering the same thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, pick your metaphor for this movie. Like one of the numerous ones that are on the table is just this illusion of safety. We have this parcel of land. This thing did give us something once. Being able to let go or not throw good money after bad. That's all like there. Because on first glance you're like, why didn't everyone get up immediately after the first storm and get the out of there?

[Sarah Paulson]

Well, it's also pride of place. You live somewhere and you love your home and your community and you feel also that it's temporary. You don't have a crystal ball and know that this is going to go on for years and years. Years. And you expect the government to do something about it. It didn't.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. The sandstorms or dust storms are so bad. And of course you're reminded of what structures look like in 1930. It's not like everything was insulated. It's just blowing through your house. And everyone's living in this cake of dust at all times. And the kids are getting.

[Sarah Paulson]

And it's making people sick.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm a little bit of a neat freak. I started becoming like, how oppressive. That always growing layer of dust everywhere you look. It's very claustrophobic.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes. And that's intentional.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so that's one of the metaphors on the table. And then what is the one for you that was most salient?

[Sarah Paulson]

I don't know metaphor wise, but I know why I wanted to do it, which was because I was interested in where I meet this character, which is my own rigidity, my own fastidiousness. She's bringing it back from the beginning. She went all the way back. She remembers really good. I also have some form of ocd. I'm a real Virgo rising. I get very focused on having everything in its place. So I could really relate to a person for whom that kind of security sort of begs the question, metaphor wise. It's that idea of like we all have this free floating anxiety about what is this all about? Actually life. What are we doing here? What are we doing with each other?

[Dax Shepard]

Am I doing the Right thing?

[Sarah Paulson]

What's about, am I doing the right thing? So it's all this free floating anxiety. And we think by getting up at this certain time and exercising and eating this thing that we're creating some path towards whether it's health success or monetary success or creative success, purpose, whatever it is. Really we're all just like running away from the great big dirt nap. Margaret is spending a lot of time, that's the character I play in the movie, trying to create something by way of normal life in a really abnormal reality.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you have this tiny pocket of the world you theoretically can control. Correct. Which is the inside of this little house sitting on all this acreage that is blowing.

[Sarah Paulson]

Blowing around.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And so that metaphor for me is we do that as well. The world is scary and unpredictable and chaotic.

[Sarah Paulson]

You're creating some sense of safety. So I was interested in that. The real crux of it is this idea that Margaret has to do everything she can to protect her children. And I don't have children. Another thing we were talking about before we decided to show up. We had so many good things we.

[Dax Shepard]

Were talking about before you were recording Rob.

[Sarah Paulson]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you get all that?

[Sarah Paulson]

No, he wasn't.

[Monica Padman]

Rob, you're always.

[Dax Shepard]

He didn't want to waste the ones and zeros. He didn't want to be secretly recording abr.

[Monica Padman]

It's ABR when Dax is here before me. Oh, we're gonna have a chat later.

[Sarah Paulson]

You're in trouble, Rob.

[Monica Padman]

Rigidity.

[Dax Shepard]

The sparkle just went down to a glimmer.

[Sarah Paulson]

She's about where she normally lives. But I feel like having a reason to live that is outside of you. Meaning the sort of self centered you that is living your own existence. You as Dax, you as Monica, me as me. You have children. You have a wife. You don't. You have no one. You have no one. You are the dust bowl personified.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Your womb is the dust bowl.

[Sarah Paulson]

Everything's just a fucking dried up. You guys are the husk of a thing. I'm gonna go cry now.

[Dax Shepard]

Arid is the Sahara.

[Monica Padman]

I have huge eggs. That's been proven.

[Sarah Paulson]

And I do have a partner and I have these three dogs. But the idea that a person would do anything and everything, everything to protect someone other than themselves was really interesting to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, let's say more about that because I've done the thing.

[Sarah Paulson]

I have not done the thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have curiosity about it?

[Sarah Paulson]

I know why I haven't done the thing.

[Monica Padman]

I want to hear.

[Sarah Paulson]

I had a conversation with a very Good friend of mine recently about this and she sort of articulated it so perfectly. And I was like, that is why I don't have the constitution to raise a child without destroying my life. And by that I mean not like my ability to go to dinner. I am so hyper freaked out about everything going on in the world. About their health, about their well being, about what the world would do to them, who would say what to them, what their experience in life would be. I am not equipped to allow a being to be out in the world on their own path without me putting a million bumpers and balloons or whatever, pillows, whatever could just keep them from hitting their head on the ground. My constitution would not allow me to do that without every waking moment.

[Dax Shepard]

What do we call that? Your anxiety?

[Sarah Paulson]

My anxiety would be so off the charts that my own life outside of my relationship with my children would be awash. And that is really true of me. And if I thought I could do it, my best friend Amanda Peet and I talk about this all the time, about the good enough mother. Winnicott, who is a famous psychologist, talks about the good enough mother that there is no such thing as the perfect amount of attention a child gets or perfect amount of freedom that they would get. There is no perfect formula.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I want to have a conversation with you, but it does run the risk of me, as it always does.

[Sarah Paulson]

Like you're convincing me to do something.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, like that I'm trying to convince you. Or that I'm. Shame.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm so old and I do have some eggs frozen.

[Monica Padman]

You froze?

[Sarah Paulson]

I froze. You don't have to worry about me feeling pressured by you.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. Because that's not at all.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm more interested in hearing what your point of view is.

[Dax Shepard]

I think there's a fun philosophical thing right here, which is, we're all aware of the many gifts that kids give you. Us parents won't shut the fuck up about it. So you already know them all, I would imagine. But what's really fucking incredible is that there is a version of you that you didn't know was there that me, as a pessimist, would have guessed it wasn't for me. And that, weirdly, is the thing. So, yes, you're that way. I accept that. But what's really wild is you have these kids and I go, wow, we've got to be a better version of ourselves because this thing does deserves it. I'd say them and having to get sober. Those are the two things in my life that have changed me in ways that I would have otherwise said were not possible in whether you should or shouldn't have kids as the human experience in the grand experiment we're all undertaking. That's why I like it. Forget I'm not see people should or shouldn't have kids. None of that. It's just like the bizarre experiment of your time on planet Earth. The thing I've found kind of interesting is that I have risen to some things and overcome some things because I actually do care about them more than I care about myself, which was kind of unimaginable. So that's just like a counter thought about that.

[Sarah Paulson]

I think it's right and true. And because I have really close friends with multiple children. My sister has three kids. I know, you're right. And yet. And this is a larger question of what my commitment to my anxiety is.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

My commitment to my identity around my anxiety, what my allegiance to it is. And like, am I afraid that if I give that up, who would I be? It's another control thing too, in its way. It's a funny thing. I take enormous risks in my work. I really do.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh God, you're a baller.

[Sarah Paulson]

And I have failed and I will fail again. And I've had successes and I hope I have success again. But I think I am much more of a real like, hold on to the handrail person in my life so.

[Dax Shepard]

That you can maybe.

[Sarah Paulson]

And I don't know if I've ever connected the two in terms of going, I can only do that in my work. If I do this in life, I don't know if it's that, but I do know that I am a person who sort of lives inside a bit of fear more than not. I don't feel like I take a lot of risks in my life. And this is a very big example of it of like I was unwilling to. And also just to be totally frank and this is the place to do it, be as frank as possible with a lot of people listening. Sure sounds like a good plan. I was and am very ambitious. My working life is very important to me. And not to be the hokiest fucking nerd, nerdiest actress, annoying person on the planet. But I am. What I am is that some of my roles have felt like my children in a way. They've taken so much of my attention and my focus. It's not on me, it's about them. Although one could argue that it is for my own personal whatever.

[Monica Padman]

Well, for parents too.

[Sarah Paulson]

That. For parents too also. So we could argue that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

It just, for me, has been. And again, to bring it back around, wanting to be approved of or celebrated or paid attention to or noticed that some deeper part of me, even the parent of, like, what am I doing to try to show myself or the world how good I can be at this? Even if it's the part of me that goes, look at the freedom I'm giving him or her. Look at what I'm doing. Look what I'm able to do. How much of that is actually about me needing a similar kind of pat on the back? It's a whole new round of that.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's a whole new round.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's just this funny thing where I think ultimately I did make the right decision for myself. But every once in a while, I do look at my sister or my best friends with their. And I'm like, hmm, what would that have been? But I look at the way I dog. I'm gonna make that a verb. But the way I dog is really fucked up.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it is.

[Sarah Paulson]

I don't leave my dogs alone. Often I have someone sit with them. I do the very thing I fear I would do with my children. It's like, here I am. And I have them. And then I have Amanda saying to me, like, but bird. We call each other bird. Why don't you just understand that they're not gonna hold it against you if you go out to dinner? And it's probably good for them. And I'm like, right. But they can't tell me. They can't tell me what they want or don't want. It gets me all fucked up. Cause I'm like, what if they're like, please don't go? And I'm like, you're fine.

[Monica Padman]

Sometimes the kids say, please don't go.

[Sarah Paulson]

Right? And you have to go. But you can then say. And you recognize when you go, I'm going to be back. And they're like, I don't understand. And you're like, but I'm going to be back. And then you see the proof that I've come back. And you can tell there's a shared experience. Whereas a dog's like, blink, blink. And one could argue, well, there, you know, they don't care. But then there's all these studies coming out where they're like, they cry when you come back, and there's real tears. And the MRIs and the dogs and the brains and what they can feel.

[Monica Padman]

And I just like. They can talk now with these buttons?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Sarah Paulson]

And they can say, I want to go out and they know what it means. And it makes me nuts, you guys. I'm really up about the dogs. All I want are the dogs. And I want a thousand dogs. The reason I have three dogs, including one of them who's 27% inbred, which means his parents, the brother and sisters were definitely. And he's really a dope. But he is consequently the most loving one of all of them. So there's an interesting argument for like, what's that about? Because I got two real smart dogs who are like, take it or leave it. Like every time I put one of them down, they shake off my hugs. And this other one's just like, give me, give me, give me. And I'm like, well, your parents may have. But you are so cute. Your parents were also your aunt and your uncle, whatever that madness.

[Dax Shepard]

But I'm the big winner.

[Sarah Paulson]

But I'm the big winner here.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's the dumb and happy.

[Sarah Paulson]

It's the dumb and happy. That's right. Because I'm like, you are not thinking about whether or not I'm coming back. You don't care. You're just happy to see me when I am here. You two are over here like this bitch never coming back.

[Dax Shepard]

She'll be out of here in five seconds. Don't believe these scratches.

[Sarah Paulson]

She says she's going to be back. She's not. She's going out on the town.

[Monica Padman]

I think sometimes, because I'm very close with his children, especially his youngest, who I was around when she was a baby. And sometimes I do get sad sometimes where I'm like, oh man, like I wish I had. So you want this feeling all the time? I really don't know. But it's like you said, sometimes you. You're like, huh? I wonder. And I do have that with her. But then I also feel proud sometimes when we hang out and then I leave and I'm like, so I just gave to this little person. Then I'm not going to get anything back in this life. It's not my kid.

[Dax Shepard]

She'll visit you in your terminal.

[Monica Padman]

I hope so.

[Dax Shepard]

She will. I can tell.

[Monica Padman]

It might be before we know it.

[Sarah Paulson]

What?

[Monica Padman]

You never know.

[Sarah Paulson]

Cuz I like to. Yeah, exactly. Right, right. I. My heart could excel. Is very high.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, quite high.

[Sarah Paulson]

Are you on a status?

[Monica Padman]

I'm supposed to be on one, but I'm delaying. But it's fine. I'm going to be.

[Sarah Paulson]

Does your mother have high cholesterol? High cholesterol. But how old is your dad?

[Monica Padman]

He's 70.

[Sarah Paulson]

I mean, you're good.

[Monica Padman]

I know. I mean, come on.

[Dax Shepard]

For your dad or for you?

[Monica Padman]

All of us.

[Sarah Paulson]

How long has he been on the statins?

[Monica Padman]

Has he been on the status for like 35 years.

[Sarah Paulson]

Okay, great. So let's get on the statins and then we're good?

[Monica Padman]

I think we're good.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, we're good.

[Monica Padman]

But all to say, there is something actually like, this is a beautiful relationship. To practice just giving and then leaving.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, the leaving part is really something I like doing. I really like doing it. When I go to my sister's house, I'm like, bye, bye. It's a nice night of the Real Housewives, Enjoy bedtime. I get to go home and do whatever the I want.

[Monica Padman]

You're right. There's a lot of benefits, but you know what I mean. There's something very hard about not being the caregiver, but loving like a caregiver. And so that's an interesting relationship. I'm glad I have.

[Sarah Paulson]

I understand that. I think that's the best of both worlds too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it sounds, I think, like I'm on a full time agenda to get everyone.

[Sarah Paulson]

You don't sound like that at all. It's just a different perspective and also a lived experience where things worked out in ways that you couldn't have imagined. And that's worth sharing.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're right, a lot of people have been made worse by it.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah. There are some people, if they're honest about it, will say, I regret it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn't go great for everyone. We had help and we have money and there's a lot of things that make it easier.

[Sarah Paulson]

And there's one thing you kind of can't do once you got one.

[Monica Padman]

Give it back.

[Sarah Paulson]

I mean, you can't put it back in there.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah. So it's like really permanent. Got to be dealt with. It's one of those decisions and sometimes it's really complicated when you're like, how will you know what you feel? And you're like, but then what if. Then it's there and you're like, I don't want it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Buyer's remorse.

[Monica Padman]

It's actually, I think, the only decision of that level. It's really, really, really can't get out.

[Sarah Paulson]

And it's really serious.

[Monica Padman]

Stakes are high.

[Sarah Paulson]

Stakes are quite high.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay, back to hold your breath. So I don't know how we talk about the plot of this in an artful way that doesn't give everything away, but in essence, we meet you, you have these two Little girls. And we understand your husband is away building a bridge. There are also some other folks in this little community. And you really get a sense of how lonely those people were. Everyone had their acreage.

[Sarah Paulson]

It wasn't like what happens in Los Angeles or a lot of cities or towns where houses are just like, boom, boom, boom, right next to each other.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So it's like you're going through hell. You're not sure if other people died. You don't know how they're handling it. And then, of course, the other people in the community are dealing with it. Some of them in much worse ways, were concerned about one woman's sanity. You're trying to maybe be helpful for a while, but then there's some other stuff going on. That's the part I don't really know how to introduce.

[Sarah Paulson]

You mean about a potential descent into madness?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Sarah Paulson]

The movie is about the very, very small tightrope walk of sanity. Sometimes that's probably the truth of it. I don't know about you, but sometimes I will see someone or experience someone doing something really fucking crazy. And I think there but the grace of God. Because I think at any given moment, the tenuous hold one can have on one's own sanity and, like, what can just send it off, you know? So that was another thing that was very interesting about the movie to me was what does that look like when what you are doing to try to remain sane is actually super crazy?

[Dax Shepard]

I'll also add, it's really trying to put some line between what are the real threats in life and what are the imagined ones? Because as the real ones are coming at you, you feel emboldened a bit for having anxiety and fear. It can be misleading. Weird.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes. Well, it's a little bit like this risk assessment thing. Like there was an article or a book written about this, and I can't remember who it would be attributed to. But this idea of, like, just because you feel that something is likely to happen because of a certain set of circumstances doesn't mean that it will. I think a lot of us look to feelings to tell us whether something is dangerous or not dangerous. And sometimes that's an appropriate response if you feel like someone's following you or something. I'm just talking more about people thinking about the problem, probability of something bad happening. Because you feel like maybe it could. Or you worry that it might. You think somehow by having the worry, it's communicating that it's more likely. This movie, this woman is sort of alone, raising these children in a very, very Scary, harrowing circumstance and what she imagines. One thing you can say that is not a giveaway, which is that she has already lost a child, and so her fear of it happening again becomes naturally very, very potent for her. And when you're by yourself and you're alone, that's key. Well, this is the other thing when we were talking, when Rob wasn't recording that, this idea of when you are not in a relationship. I have a couple of people in my life who are single and have been single for years. And I'm not talking about because they couldn't get a man or something. I'm talking about decisions made about this. And I find them to be the most difficult relationships I have in my life because they have the consistency of a voice other than their own to either talk themselves out of some story they've told themselves or some assessment they're making. You know, think about the number of times you rely on Kristen to say to you, dax, dude, my dude, this is not what you think it is.

[Dax Shepard]

You're.

[Sarah Paulson]

And you saying to her, babe, listen to me. You need sometimes, and sometimes it can be a friend. Doesn't only have to be a romantic partner, but having people in your life that you're relying to say to you, you're thinking about this is out of adjustment, and it's of paramount importance. Nothing could be more valuable in life than having that kind of connectivity. And when you don't have it, you're swirling in your own juices and it doesn't do you any good.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, by the way, there's almost a fun game you could play. It could almost be a game show where it's like sometimes you're listening to someone tell you about their problem. I have the thought, well, they've been sitting with this one on their own for a very long time. I'm the first person to hear about that. They're even hearing themselves say this out loud and realizing this sounds a little nuts. And I know the fourth person that hears what they're going through, this will be a different story. Just by the act of hearing themselves out loud. I can.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's right. This is a real thing that happens in life. And I think in the movie, she has just got no one except for her daughters to bounce things off of. And I think she's got enough wherewithal, certainly the beginning of the movie, to not bring them into too much of her worry. But it's obviously on her face. She's carrying a lot and the death of a child and also is There something out there that is trying to harm her and her family in addition.

[Dax Shepard]

To the crazy dust bowls, Is there.

[Sarah Paulson]

A person, an entity, a being, a thing that is coming for her and her children? And it is very scary to her, and it's very real. And she's got no one to sort of say, did you hear that? Do you see that? Do you know about that? No.

[Dax Shepard]

She doesn't want to freak her kids out.

[Sarah Paulson]

Right. And so it's this thing she's battling by herself, which is far more likely to send you down the rabbit hole of another good metaphor.

[Dax Shepard]

Just these family secrets. I think you could watch this movie and whatever your issues are, are going to be on full exploration.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah, I agree.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a trigger for me, is like protecting kids. From what? From reality. You can't protect them from it. They're in it.

[Sarah Paulson]

Right?

[Dax Shepard]

By not telling them doesn't remove them from the reality. It just has them guessing at what possible.

[Sarah Paulson]

And also, I always feel like where there is a void, you fill it in with your own information that is probably erroneous or at the very least, not even accurate. What is the point? This is why I always feel this about relationships and friendships too, romantic or otherwise. I would rather talk about it. I'd rather you tell me every fucking thing you hate about what I did. I would rather you say it all and then let me at least respond and say, here's what I was thinking or here's what was going on with me. Like it, leave it, agree with it, or not. At least the conversation is out there. At least you have a frame of reference for understanding why behavior is happening. And it's like, if you don't tell me why, I don't have to agree with you. I can tell you that was not my intention. You can tell me that my intention matters not to you at all. But there does come a point where if you withhold that from me and then I'm trying to figure out who to be or what to be for you, to you, or how best to be. I'm creating something that's like, I think you're doing X because of Y. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, no. And it's like, well, if you had told me, I wouldn't have gone over here and created it. I think friendships, relationships, romantically too, live or die on communication. And it's like if you're able to say the hard, impossible thing and the other person can hold it. Again, I'm not talking about agreement. I'm just talking about willingness really to hold something on. Comfortable.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think we index all differently, like you. And I need that.

[Sarah Paulson]

I do need that because I will.

[Dax Shepard]

Fill in the gaps and there's no getting away from this thing I created.

[Sarah Paulson]

Correct. And then I'm the one not sleeping. You're sleeping fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Because you're not even, you're not even.

[Sarah Paulson]

Mad at me in the way that I think you're mad at me, you know, and it's like I'm trying to figure out what I've done or what I didn't do.

[Dax Shepard]

Back to that dualistic behavior a little bit as a kid.

[Sarah Paulson]

And the truth is my world has gotten a little smaller of late because of these things. The older I've gotten, the more I've realized that there are some people in your life that can hang with the ugliness of things, the truth of things, be responsible for their own part in things, expect you to be responsible for your part of it. But people who take their ball and go home and don't want to talk about it, for me personally, I can't do that. There are other people who can coexist perfectly that way because they both don't want to talk about it and then just move on. Moveon.org you know, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

As a friend of mine, very good site.

[Sarah Paulson]

But there were times in my life where that didn't seem as important to me of having like mindedness in terms of, again, not agreeing with me on everything, but at least willingness and openness to being able to really get in there and roll your sleeves up and pull it all out, look at it, shake it all out, it's blood and guts and dirt and shit and vomit and then spray it all down and see what you're left with. And either there's something you want to put back in the body and sew it back up and we go back on our way and we're better, deeper, richer for it. Or. Or you go, I don't want what's there. Great. I don't want it either, by the way.

[Dax Shepard]

I've never had a single experience where we did all that and then afterwards I didn't feel better.

[Sarah Paulson]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Whether or not we resolved anything or not, me neither.

[Sarah Paulson]

But there are other people.

[Dax Shepard]

The proof for me is so there.

[Sarah Paulson]

But to me, I think you do have to rely on another person's sanity in some way because you could be willing to have a conversation about the deepest, darkest things about yourself. Your jealousy, your envy, your hatred. But if the other person isn't willing to do that same kind of excavation. I do think it gets really hard because then you end up feeling a little like, wow, I just put all of this.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's a level of relationship.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes. There are certain people you wouldn't do that with.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Sarah Paulson]

In your life.

[Monica Padman]

You want to keep at some sort of arms.

[Sarah Paulson]

Totally. Plenty of them.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Because as my therapist would say, if you have a problem with someone. But you know, like, you know what? This relationship has limitations. And then you go to them and you say, hey, this is what's going on. And it's this and this. You're actually inviting intimacy. That's what you're saying?

[Sarah Paulson]

That's what I'm saying, yes. In order to make the risk of that worth it is a. You have to know you want the thing in the first place.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Sarah Paulson]

And then second, you have to know that the relationship itself can withstand that. And you don't go doing that with your guy who gives you your Starbucks in the morning. But there are people who do that too. They want to parse out everything with every person. But I would like to talk about almost anything with almost everyone.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, we do love a deep dive.

[Sarah Paulson]

I love a deep dive. I like to get in there.

[Dax Shepard]

As I said at the beginning, you're a unicorn in an anomaly and an enigma wrapped in a mystery. In a to do Churchill say. And I got to know you better. And yet I still have it.

[Sarah Paulson]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. That's kind of the dream outcome for me.

[Sarah Paulson]

Cool girl.

[Dax Shepard]

I definitely know you better. And also you're still pretty exotic to me.

[Sarah Paulson]

Really? I feel like we're like a lot alike.

[Dax Shepard]

I do too.

[Sarah Paulson]

So what's exotic about it?

[Dax Shepard]

Why is there a woman version of me? What do you mean? They made a lady version.

[Sarah Paulson]

They made a lady version of me.

[Dax Shepard]

Actually, they made a male version of you cuz you're 15 days older than me.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I'll take that. I'm a replica. I'm the male version of you. I like it. Thanks.

[Sarah Paulson]

I like it. But I'm so interested about what's exotic about it. I feel like such a.

[Dax Shepard]

You feel pedestrian?

[Sarah Paulson]

I feel a little bit regular. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

You're not.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I'm not. You're not. In a wonderful way.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, the best way.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what I'm saying. You had unicorn vibes coming in and then you like maintained unicorn vibes. That's what I'm saying.

[Sarah Paulson]

I wonder what Monica feels.

[Monica Padman]

I feel unicorn vibes too. I told you you were a cool girl before abr. And I still think It.

[Sarah Paulson]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

This was really fun.

[Sarah Paulson]

This was really fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you like it? I really liked it.

[Sarah Paulson]

I really like it. I've been wondering for a long time, like, why no one's asked me to be on it.

[Monica Padman]

No, are you kidding? We have been asking for you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

Oh, really?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. I think we told Amanda. Hey, can you tell her yeah, Yeah.

[Sarah Paulson]

I don't remember her telling me that at all.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, don't worry.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'll be fine.

[Dax Shepard]

The main takeaway of this is, fuck you, Amanda P. We learned anything on this episode.

[Sarah Paulson]

Bird, you bird. This was fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, this was a blast. I really enjoyed this. I want everyone to watch hold your breath, which is on Hulu. October 3rd. This is fantastic that you can just watch it in your house.

[Sarah Paulson]

People are lamenting the fact that. But at the same time, I'm kind of like, do you really want to leave your house a lot?

[Dax Shepard]

That's the problem.

[Sarah Paulson]

Right?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm saying one thing, but I'm living a different way.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm fraudulent. I know. I'm fraudulent that way, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, this is a real party, and I hope we do it again.

[Sarah Paulson]

We're going to do it again.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great.

[Sarah Paulson]

You're not going to get rid of me.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, everybody watch. Hold your breath.

[Sarah Paulson]

Hold your breath.

[Dax Shepard]

Hold your breath.

[Sarah Paulson]

October 3rd.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't hold your breath until October 3rd.

[Sarah Paulson]

Well, you could.

[Dax Shepard]

It's dangerous. Stay tuned for more Armchair expert if you dare. Apple card is the perfect card for your holiday shopping. When you use Apple Card on your iPhone, you'll earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including product at Apple. Like a new iPhone 16 or Apple Watch Ultra. Apply now in the wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch terms and [e-mail] he is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here. She's gotta let him have the facts.

[Monica Padman]

You have a computer today, too.

[Dax Shepard]

I just wanted to see what it was like. What if I had a computer?

[Monica Padman]

You're just jealous.

[Dax Shepard]

I do like that you have a prop. I'm jealous that you have a prop. It's fun. Like, you play with a guitar and I've just got to sing on a mic.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't hide behind it, but I just have it because I was doing some work and I had it in my hand and I didn't know where to set it in my house.

[Sarah Paulson]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a whole thing about setting things down. I think you've heard Me talk about before?

[Monica Padman]

Because you have been judgmental.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm very judgmental of people who lose things.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. AKA Me.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no, most people lose things, but I always argue if you only have X amount of places you set things down, you can't really. You know, even saying it out loud, I sound terrible. I recognize.

[Monica Padman]

No, it makes sense. It's just. I think you think of it as like, this is so obvious.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a solution. It's like your teeth are falling out. Well, you brush them as toothpaste.

[Monica Padman]

Your idea sounds great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. No one likes it, though. Everyone I pitch it to who loses stuff, they don't like it. I've never convinced anyone to adopt this strategy, but at any rate, yeah, I kind of live by it. So my computer only goes certain places because I. I would have the panic of my life if I lost my computer. I couldn't put it upstairs because cleaning's happening upstairs.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I was like, oh, set it on the counter. Run to the attic. What do we call this, by the way?

[Monica Padman]

Garage.

[Dax Shepard]

Side note, the garage.

[Monica Padman]

I call it the garage.

[Dax Shepard]

That's fun. Side note again, another side note. I dealt with the cobwebs. Have you noticed we have cobwebs in the. In the very peak of the roof in the attic? Well, I've been noticing them, and I'm like, the guests must see those. There's a couple that are like, they've spun together. They've gotten dirty over time. They're gross. They look like hanging pinatas. And there's dust inside.

[Monica Padman]

Happy Halloween.

[Dax Shepard]

Happy Halloween. Happy birthday. Happy quinceanera. So I was in my garage using my leaf blower to blow out the shit from the garage, and I noticed, oh, I had some cobwebs in the corner of the garage, and I used my leaf blower, and by God, it got rid of them. A leaf blower. Just blast the cobwebs away. And I went, ding, ding, ding. This was just Sunday. So then I immediately sprinted up to the attic, and I was just leaf blowing the shit out of the top of the attic. So when we get up there in a half hour, which we're scheduled to do, I want you to look at the ground because there's bits of cobweb laying all over the ground now, but it is off the ceiling.

[Monica Padman]

Ew. You prefer it on the ground?

[Dax Shepard]

I prefer it out of the attic. I had to get it off the ceiling. And what was I going to get? A ladder and some feather, and I just took the leaf blower. To it. I thought that was a pretty creative solution.

[Monica Padman]

It is.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, back to this. So I didn't know where to put it and I'm not allowed to put it in places. I'll forget it. So then I was just carrying it and then I thought, oh, fun. I'll have a prop like Monica.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting. And I wonder where you're going to put it next.

[Dax Shepard]

Bend over, I'll show you.

[Monica Padman]

That's not one of your places, so you can't put it there.

[Dax Shepard]

Remember I said that to my mother in law and she kind of took it seriously. Bend over, I'll show you is a big saying in our house. Kristen says it a lot. I think the kids even say it. I say it. But some people don't like that saying.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it's rude objectively, but it is cute.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so ridiculous. You can't. You're not really.

[Monica Padman]

She took it seriously in that, like she bent over.

[Dax Shepard]

No, she just reported to Kristen that I had said that to her and she did not think it was very funny.

[Monica Padman]

I see. This is why you can't have a computer, FYI.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I clean it while working.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you're like all busy with it.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, good prop work. You incorporate it into your acting. You should know that from all your training at your various schools you went to. I didn't even go to acting school, but I know to incorporate your props.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, we're on a time schedule.

[Dax Shepard]

We're on a time schedule, which is why I'm immediately. Can't get on. I know that in the back of my head.

[Monica Padman]

So you're trying to like do the opposite.

[Dax Shepard]

The rebel in me is like, I can't now. I can't concentrate. Okay, I'm so sorry. Where were we at? This is going away. I'll put it there. That's over. That fun experiment and game is over.

[Monica Padman]

Is this gonna be one of your new spots? Cause or do you have to see, this is my problem with your plan. Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

This isn't one of your spots. So really by your theory, you'd have to stop what you're doing. Doing right now, go walk this over to one of your designated locations, then walk back. And no one does that.

[Dax Shepard]

This is no fault of your own. I haven't explained the entire system to you.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Obviously, if it's in my line of sight, my purview, I don't have to worry about where it's at. If I'm at a restaurant, I can see my phone. Obviously, the restaurant's not one of the places I put my phone because I don't live at the restaurant, but as long as it's in my line of sight, I can't. You can't lose it.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, this is that. I'm gonna poke so many holes just like your toe.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you either. Wow. Updates on that, too. If it's in your line of sight, you're fine. You can't lose something that's in your line of sight.

[Monica Padman]

Of course you can. That's exactly how it happens in my line of sight. I know my phone's there. This is great. Do our thing. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. We're late for our thing. Cause we are.

[Dax Shepard]

Stop. That's the problem. You can't get up and leave the line of sight.

[Monica Padman]

Well, you do. You don't plan on it being a hurry, but then it's a hurry, and it's like, oh, fuck, we gotta go. We gotta go. And then I run up there, and.

[Dax Shepard]

Then you're acting like there's a monster is chasing you or something.

[Monica Padman]

This is how your brain doesn't work like this. Like, I'm always, like, flustered like this.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you are?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. There's always so much to do and, like, so much happening. And I have to run upstairs, and then I take my computer. Okay. I'm like, oh, yeah, I got this. And I grab my purse and I run out.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Then we do our interview that we're about to. To do.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm like, hours have gone by.

[Monica Padman]

Where's my phone?

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

That's how this happens.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm going to not leave its orbit. That's a commitment I have.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. We'll see what happens when we're rushing up my toe at 307.

[Dax Shepard]

On a previous fact check, I did tell you that I had poked some holes in my toe, and then this weekend, I had just removed one of my fungal patches.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yep.

[Monica Padman]

I'm surprised you still want to talk about that.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't, but. And even as I was saying my fungal patch, I was like, why do you keep doing this? Anyways, I saw the toenail. I snapped a picture.

[Monica Padman]

Sure did.

[Dax Shepard]

And I sent it to you. And I said, is this worse or better than you were expecting?

[Monica Padman]

And I said, worse, but that made it better.

[Dax Shepard]

So describe for the listener what? The toe.

[Monica Padman]

It's bad.

[Dax Shepard]

I can see that it's bad. That's why I decided to send you a picture. Like, I'm not delusional. That. That looks healthy.

[Monica Padman]

I really want you to go to the doctor when we get back from our trip. We're going on a work trip and when you're we're back, you really need to go to the doctor. Cuz like, I think they might have to cut your toe off.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's what it looks like. So the update that I wanted to share with you, you saw it, and I think this has something to do with my products I'm using on the toenail. So then this is unrelated. I just noticed my right toenails were a little bit long. I'm going to trim those. And then I started getting after the other toe and then I started trimming around that toe and. And I was able to trim really far down without it hurting.

[Sarah Paulson]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the products are making the gross nail maybe hopefully separate because I think what really my fear and why I don't want to go is I think they're going to at it and go, we've got to surgically pull that nail off and you got to start fresh.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And that seems terrible. What's your least favorite part of any torture scene Is nails.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I have cut most of it off.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think I'm going to, hopefully by the end of our business travels, that toenail is going to be completely removed. That's my current goal.

[Monica Padman]

And is the black still visible, though?

[Dax Shepard]

Don't tell anyone about the black.

[Monica Padman]

You already talked about the black. Okay. And the black is definitely the most disturbing part.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. Well, but. And it's also been accentuated by the fact that when I put the hot needle in there, that was all black with soot. So it also deposited a ton of soot in my. In those holes. That's a lot of what you're seeing is soot. Okay, bend over, I'll show you.

[Monica Padman]

First of all, I don't think that's a lot of what I'm seeing. I think I'm seeing a lot of fungus.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And then also, why'd you put soot in. In there? That's not going to help anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, because I wasn't going to heat up the. The whole of heating up the. Well, there's two points, really. There's. So it'll melt through the nail. That's why you heat it.

[Monica Padman]

Well, sterilization and then sterilization. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I'm not going to like, sterilize it and then wipe it with something that contaminates it. So I'm just sticking with whatever.

[Monica Padman]

You could have.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

You used alcohol.

[Dax Shepard]

Patch alcohol.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. Alcohol.

[Dax Shepard]

I should have. I was in a rush. For whatever reason.

[Monica Padman]

It's because you Used to love your feet so much, and then the doctor ruined one of your feet, and now you're, like, self sabotaging.

[Dax Shepard]

I know I flew too close to the sun because I was on Kimmel bragging about having foot competitions with staff members. So I know why I've been smited.

[Monica Padman]

The old narrative was that your feet were perfect. The new narrative is I flew too close to the sun. And now you're self fulfilling that prophecy. And it doesn't have to be that way.

[Dax Shepard]

I actually. To let you know where I'm at mentally, I had a moment of optimism when I was able to cut as much of it off as I did the other day. Try not to puke.

[Monica Padman]

I want to see it again.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll show you.

[Monica Padman]

I need to see it with all of it removed.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. I think you're going to be encouraged. Anyways, once I started seeing a little light at the end of the tunnel, like, oh, I think I'm going to be able to get this nail completely off.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Without surgery.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I then let myself imagine, what would my left foot like look like if a healthy toenail grew in? Because I don't have any other issues on my left foot. It's just that hideous toenail. I started getting thinking, no, I'm going to be able to salvage this one. I had written off both feet, but now I'm back to thinking I might have one really attractive foot.

[Monica Padman]

Is the black still there? You never answered that, even though you took a lot of the nail off. Is the black on the bed still there?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, here's a part that's so gross. I don't want to tell you about or anyone that listens to this program. When I cut off that sizable chunk of the nail.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I flipped it over to see, and it's. It's so bad. What's underneath?

[Monica Padman]

Was it black? Like, what is it?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't want to say what color it was. It was brown. Isn't that worse than black?

[Monica Padman]

No, because black is like. Black is true. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Necrotic gangrene gang.

[Monica Padman]

Fully done. It's done.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So this was more of a brown.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So we'll check back in after the work trip that you think is. Which is only, like, a few days, by the way.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. That nail's gonna be gone by the time.

[Monica Padman]

Everything's gonna be fixed by then. We'll report back. Now, we won't give any details about this, but we did see a. We went to a screening of a movie this weekend.

[Dax Shepard]

A huge family affair.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. With Wobby Wops.

[Sarah Paulson]

Family.

[Monica Padman]

Your family.

[Dax Shepard]

Natalie, Calvin. Calvin's cute friend.

[Sarah Paulson]

B. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

My chili's. Anna, Julia, Justin. My cousin. His chili gnome. It was so fun.

[Monica Padman]

It was really fun.

[Dax Shepard]

And we saw Wicked. Did you already say that?

[Monica Padman]

No, I didn't, but I wasn't going to.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I think we can say.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think we're. I mean, it's like very.

[Dax Shepard]

I read the list of things we can't say about it.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm going to now tell you all the things now. But I read the list and saying we saw it is not prohibited.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. We saw Wicked. We got an advanced screening. Very exciting. And it was really fun and very good.

[Dax Shepard]

Very, very good.

[Monica Padman]

And I will say I had. And this is mean, but I had low expectations because it's a musical, right? Yeah. I'm not a big musical gal. Although I did. I have seen Wicked, the play.

[Sarah Paulson]

And.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you like it?

[Monica Padman]

And I did love. But it's been so many years and I forgot and so I'm not a big. I'm not a big musical person in general. And then I'm definitely not a big musical on screen.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? Yeah. Very few musical movies. Can I name that I've liked?

[Monica Padman]

Yes, but count this one in.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was. Were you singing in your apartment any of the songs? Because I was singing.

[Monica Padman]

Which one did you sing? Popular?

[Dax Shepard]

No, but I love popular.

[Monica Padman]

You know, I sang that song for an audition in college.

[Dax Shepard]

You did? How do you think you did?

[Monica Padman]

I don't think I booked whatever part I was trying to book. I'm sure I did a horrible job because I was so self conscious.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

It's very scary to sing in front of people. I mean, you don't know what that is?

[Sarah Paulson]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

I've had to sing on stage in the Groundlings for singing improvs, which there were some built in. Luckily I was always so bad at it, they finally weeded me out of those. You know, there's a group there that's great.

[Monica Padman]

You love singing. I love singing in front of people.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I did have one moment.

[Monica Padman]

You do it a lot. I'm just. I'm just giving.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. When Star Is Born was out. How's that song? What are the beginning lyrics of? Shallow. I love the beginning of that song. And I love to sing the beginning of that song.

[Sarah Paulson]

I'm off the deep end Watch as I dive in.

[Monica Padman]

I thought that was.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the chorus. What's the very Beginning lyrics? Tell me something, girl Are you happy.

[Sarah Paulson]

In this modern world?

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me something, girl Chris And I had to go on stage in this huge Walmart conference and it's outdoor amp. Oh, you were there for that, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And I couldn't resist taking the opportunity to sing it as loud and as passionately as I could. And that is a time I did it. And I don't regret it. It felt great. I don't think I sounded good, but it felt really good.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So I think.

[Dax Shepard]

And there was enough joke built into it because it was a popular movie at the time that I. There was no explosion expectation. I had to be good.

[Monica Padman]

I think your relationship with singing in front of people is. Is different than mine.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Just.

[Dax Shepard]

Just know that I think. I do think I'm bad at it. No, I know that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But that doesn't stop you.

[Dax Shepard]

It doesn't stop me.

[Monica Padman]

Which is a big difference. No, it's just a difference.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, you want to be good at it if you're gonna do it.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, I want to be amazing at it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That's the problem.

[Dax Shepard]

I think we can say that too. There was amazing singing in this. Buckle up.

[Monica Padman]

This leads me to a question. So we get there and before the movie starts, some members of the group are already singing the songs. Like every. People are excited, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Delta was like. She was like, lincoln, please don't sing the whole movie.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

And I could really relate to her.

[Dax Shepard]

You could.

[Monica Padman]

I do have like an aversion to. To people who are singing when I'm trying to hear the actual song.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Monica Padman]

I just decided. I think there's two camps. A camp that really doesn't like that and a camp that loves it and is fine with it. And it doesn't matter how good the people are who are singing. It's not like if it's bad or good, it matters. It's just like. But I wanna hear the source material. Correct. And so where do you land on that?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'm with you. But I do get then overwhelmed with. I can viscerally feel the joy that all. Because at one point, seven or eight people in our screening were singing along. And so I was like, yeah, I kind of want to hear the voice of these people because they're clearly the best in the world. That's why they got cast. But the visceral joy that they were all getting overwhelmed. That feeling, for me, it's like when you're at a concert, I also don't want to hear the audience sing the concert. I want to hear Stevie Nick sing it. But there's that moment where everyone's Getting to sing it as loud as they can. And I do let that take over my preference.

[Monica Padman]

I guess that is funny because I don't have it during concerts. To me, that's just like you should.

[Dax Shepard]

You've paid to go hear the actual artist sing the song.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And when everyone was singing, I didn't have it. It's. There's something about it. It must be a deeper thing. It must be like.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Why do some people think that this is theirs?

[Dax Shepard]

Uh huh.

[Monica Padman]

It must be that. Because if everyone's doing it, then everyone's doing it. Everyone's in on it. It's fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I didn't see the Taylor Swift cons. I mean, the movie.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But I know that that wouldn't have bothered me there.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Like everyone's there. That's what you're supposed to do.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes.

[Monica Padman]

So I don't know, I just, I was in the shower and I was thinking about that and I wonder where you fell.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

In the camps.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I also, I've never heard these. I haven't been to the musical several times. I haven't listened to the soundtrack like everyone has. So. Yeah. I want to kind of hear it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But then soon as it's happening, I recognize that the people are having so much fun doing it. That I'm. I. That ends up being more important to me than hearing what I wanted to hear.

[Sarah Paulson]

That's good.

[Dax Shepard]

So my cousin was visiting this weekend, which is really, really fun. JP and his little girl know me and her and Delta are the bestest of friends. And I know I've already said this before, but I think it's so, so interesting that because your family, there's another layer. Did you. You didn't have a lot of cousins, did you? Even though you.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I have cousins, but they weren't. They didn't live near me.

[Dax Shepard]

They weren't close. So you didn't really have that cousin thing. Yeah, I really did. Like, I love my cousins. They weren't people I would have hung out with in school.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And I loved them so much and had so much fun with them always.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I just, I think it's really cute to observe. And it's hard to know though, with Delta. She can really be friends with anybody.

[Monica Padman]

True. Yeah. When she was introducing me to know me, to know me, she said, this is Monica. She is my soulmate. She's known me my whole life. She was my babysitter and now she works with my dad. But not only that, she has a great personality. And she's really pretty.

[Dax Shepard]

She should be your publicist.

[Monica Padman]

I know. She's my hype woman.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Like they would call her. Like Fallon would call to have you on. And then it would be. They'd be offering the second spot, not the first. And she'd be like, absolutely not. Don't call back. And. Are you crazy?

[Monica Padman]

That's my soulmate. Yeah. It was so sweet. I think Nomi was like, oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. That's a lot.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So this is for Sarah Paulson. Speaking of charming women.

[Dax Shepard]

I loved her.

[Monica Padman]

Loved her.

[Dax Shepard]

It's interesting when you're watching an actor who's just super great in their intense some. Well, we had this with.

[Monica Padman]

I know exactly who you're talking about. She's in the archives. Elizabeth Moss.

[Dax Shepard]

Moss. Elizabeth Moss. You're gonna. I'm assuming she's really serious. Consternated. And I don't know if that's the right adjective, but, you know, it's very serious and grinding through life because the performances are so hard and impressive.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I. I think I might have did that to Sarah before meeting her. I'm like, she must be so serious because she's so good.

[Monica Padman]

I know. She was spunky as hell.

[Dax Shepard]

What a spunk. Let's be careful. Yeah. Spunks are words. I almost said spunk machine. And that sounds terrible. That's not right. That would be the wrong.

[Monica Padman]

Definitely not right. But she was so fun and playful. We love playful.

[Dax Shepard]

Challenging in a fun way.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Yeah. What a joy. Speaking of her. Not speaking of her.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

But it is tangential because she works with Ryan Murphy so much.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Have you watched any of Monsters?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think I watched the first two episodes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But what it ended up doing is driving me to the documentaries.

[Monica Padman]

I know. I really want to watch the document.

[Dax Shepard]

I had to answer what was happening when I was watching the Ryan Murphy show. Which is great, by the way.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me just say I think it's great. I was having a hard time imagining that the Juan Mendez brother. I don't know which one was that enormous of an asshole. Like, it's just so over the top. He's yelling at fucking trick or treaters. He's calling people poor.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

And I just was like, I can't really continue on until I get the real. By the way, if he's not that, that's fine. But I. I just need to know. So then I started watching the docs to get that answered.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And the docs. Although I do think it's going to get. If I continue On. And I think the later episodes do fall in line more with the docs, but at least the doc I saw, you know, pointed out that if any of that testimony was given in today's times, they'd be believed 100%. And watching it, I'm like, but what's so crazy? And it's just proves how warping context is to your perception.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I was alive then. I was a 16 year old. This was all happening. I would see the trial on TV and I was like, yeah, these rich kids killed their parents because they, they couldn't even be patient enough to get the money later. You know, And I'm a poor kid, so I hate them.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so, yeah, I think that testimony I was, it wasn't persuasive to me back then, but now I watch it and I'm like, no way. That clearly.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

There's no way that's not real.

[Monica Padman]

Well also though, there it was a mistrial.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then in the actual trial, they weren't. All evidence wasn't admissible.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. They couldn't have their family members who had observed weird happen. They couldn't have the cousin bring up.

[Monica Padman]

The abuse, which is like, that is the whole defense. So I don't. It's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And they're still in jail.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It's pretty b. I mean, I mean.

[Dax Shepard]

Look, there's, there's a lot of things though, like, okay, let's say abuse is real.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Do I think a 22 year old needed to go kill his parents? Like, I. To say that the abuse is real isn't even saying they shouldn't be in jail. And I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. I, I don't have a position. But it's not like you, you believe the abuse is real and therefore what they did is fine. It's not like those are the two options. Either you think they're cold blooded killers and they weren't abused, or they were abused and they shouldn't be in jail for murder, murdering their parents. I don't, I think there's a third option which is like, I understand why they maybe did it. I don't think that's a course of action people are allowed to take in the response of abuse.

[Monica Padman]

Well, either do I. But I also think your sentence should be reflective of that. Like, do I think those two are a danger to society? No, I do not.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Based on their experience. And like same with Gypsy Rose.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I mean she is out now, but like same situation.

[Dax Shepard]

But I don't Think the policy is if you've been abused, you get killed.

[Monica Padman]

You're allowed to get killed.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't get to be judge, executioner or whatever, all those.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I don't think so either. I think that you should have to serve some time, but I don't think you should have to serve a life.

[Dax Shepard]

Your whole life. Yeah, yeah, we agree.

[Monica Padman]

If the whole point is to keep people, like dangerous people, dangerous people off the street. This is not that. Yeah, but we get really mixed up about what the point of jail and retribution is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, Sarah, there's only. I only have two facts for her.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, hit me with the two facts.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. One is the Carrie Fisher quote. She said a Carrie Fisher quote and said she probably was gonna mess it up, but it's. If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.

[Dax Shepard]

I had the privilege of hanging out with her one time.

[Monica Padman]

What was that like?

[Dax Shepard]

At her house. A friend of mine was really good friends with her, invited me over, and she was very cool.

[Monica Padman]

I bet.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Carrie Fiser.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Not Mendez.

[Monica Padman]

Menendez. You say it every time.

[Dax Shepard]

Menendez.

[Monica Padman]

Menendez.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Studio 60 had 22 episodes. We were talking about that. 22 episodes. 22. I loved that show so much. I watched it.

[Dax Shepard]

Why do you think you loved it? It's Sorkin. So you.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I'm a sucker for Sorkin.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm a sucker for Sorkin as well.

[Monica Padman]

I'm a blue monster.

[Dax Shepard]

What's called Chandler at the time.

[Monica Padman]

Matthew Perry.

[Dax Shepard]

I love a spunk machine.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what you could call a teenage boy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I. I love Matthew Perry. I love Bradley Whitford. The cast is insane. Amanda Peet. I love Steven Weber. Like, it's.

[Dax Shepard]

It's dynamite.

[Monica Padman]

It's a dynamite cast. I love the, like, backstage quote, like, backstage world of bts. Yeah. Bts. Like the Newsroom. I loved the Newsroom.

[Dax Shepard]

Same situation you got me with Newsroom.

[Monica Padman]

Like, behind the scenes of a newsroom. This is behind the scenes of snl. Essentially, yes. Like, what's not to love? I loved it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I'm trying to think why I didn't watch it, and I'm guessing because in some weird way, maybe I thought you're not allowed to do that about snl. I. I guess. I'm guessing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But ironically, the other show that was on at the same time was 30 Rock, so a lot. 30 Rock, which is definitely. That is SNL.

[Dax Shepard]

It was SNL.

[Monica Padman]

It was a talk show. Nobody called it. I mean, it was an snl.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're right. I take that all, I think because Tina was doing it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You felt like it was allowed because it was Tina and it was so fucking good. So funny. But I think a lot of people felt that they had to choose between those two shows. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

They weren't on the same time, though. Wasn't 60 way before?

[Monica Padman]

No, 2006 was Studio 60 and I.

[Dax Shepard]

Think 30 Rock was probably 2008. 2006. 2006.

[Sarah Paulson]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

Just like I said, 2008. Same time, same time. Oopsie.

[Sarah Paulson]

Like I said.

[Monica Padman]

I kind of remember it specifically because I was in college and I had this professor. I was like, oh, I love Studio 60. And he was like, Ugh, 30 Rock is so much better.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Monica Padman]

And I was like, that's their really different.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. One's a one hour drama. One's a. Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

[Monica Padman]

So I think some people, like my professor, shout out George Contini. Well, that's it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's everything.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. That's our time for today.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

The bell's about to ring.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, thanks for having me on your show. Thanks for letting me bring my prop.

[Monica Padman]

Just put your homework in the bin on your way out.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. I will do that. All right.

[Monica Padman]

You ever do homework? Did you do your homework?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, some people don't.

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't do all of it. I might have relied on just testing well at times.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. What are you trying to do? Are you trying to gaslight me? Oh, my God. All right, well that as I thought.

[Dax Shepard]

I did it in college. All of it. Never missed any homework in college. Do you have homework in class?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. No, not really.

[Dax Shepard]

Papers. I got papers. So many papers. That's homework.

[Monica Padman]

It's not really because papers is like a 30 year grade.

[Dax Shepard]

You have homework, you have a syllabus, you got to go home and read section. There's a lot of reading. That's your homework.

[Monica Padman]

That's the. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Your coursework?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, sure, fine, sure. Okay. So you didn't do homework and that's clear.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I did some of my homework and really hoped I would test well. All right, I love you.

[Monica Padman]

Love.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her. And she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the Internet is the Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses, and specific instructions for people's murders. This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those who lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wandery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more. Exhibit C True crime shows like Morbid early and Ad Free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Check out Exhibit C in the Wandery app for all your true Chrome listening.