Tyler Perry

Summary

Podcast Summary: Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard – Episode Featuring Tyler Perry

Release Date: January 6, 2025

In this compelling episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard engages in a profound and candid conversation with renowned filmmaker, playwright, and actor Tyler Perry. The discussion delves deep into Perry's tumultuous childhood, his journey through trauma and forgiveness, and his meteoric rise in the entertainment industry. Here's a detailed breakdown of the episode's key themes and insights.

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1. Introduction to Tyler Perry

Dax Shepard begins by expressing his admiration for Tyler Perry, highlighting Perry's multifaceted career and his impactful contributions to storytelling, especially within the Black community.

Notable Quote:

Dax Shepard [00:44]: "Tyler Perry is a filmmaker, a playwright, an actor... This is a very, very special episode."

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2. Early Life and Childhood Trauma

Perry opens up about his challenging upbringing in New Orleans, marked by abuse and the complexities of his family dynamics. He recounts the emotional turmoil of his childhood, including instances of bullying and the profound impact of his mother's generosity in sheltering others.

Notable Quotes:

Tyler Perry [05:37]: "I am the most gentle guy in the world until I'm pushed way too far."

Tyler Perry [06:11]: "I didn't really fully understand it until I had a child... someone was kind and their agenda was about grooming rather than it being about kindness."

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3. Understanding and Overcoming Trauma

The conversation shifts to Perry's realization of the long-term effects of childhood sexual abuse. He introduces the concept of the "arousal template," explaining how early traumatic experiences can permanently alter one's perceptions and behaviors.

Notable Quotes:

Tyler Perry [10:11]: "I've had to believe that all things work together for your good, even though if they're awful and horrible, I have to believe that."

Tyler Perry [14:35]: "There's something called an arousal template that I had no idea about... If someone comes along and interjects something into your arousal template, it becomes a part of your arousal template."

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4. The Power of Forgiveness

A pivotal moment in Perry's life was forgiving the man who raised him, which dramatically transformed his personal and professional trajectory. This act of forgiveness not only alleviated his burdens but also redefined his motivations.

Notable Quotes:

Tyler Perry [34:01]: "I forgave him, and that is when the show changed."

Tyler Perry [35:25]: "I shifted from the anger to caregiving."

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5. Career Beginnings and Persistence

Perry discusses his early attempts at playwriting, including the initial failures and his relentless perseverance. Moving to Atlanta was a strategic decision that eventually led to the success of his plays and the establishment of his own production studio.

Notable Quotes:

Tyler Perry [32:27]: "I have a tremendous amount of people who need a lot of help."

Tyler Perry [33:54]: "In 1998, I took off one night... and I forgave him. And it was spiritual for me."

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6. Building an Empire: Owning a Studio

Tyler Perry elaborates on the challenges and triumphs of building his own studio. He underscores the significance of authentic Black storytelling and the obstacles he faced within the mainstream entertainment industry.

Notable Quotes:

Tyler Perry [48:05]: "Producing content that speaks from a Black perspective... No matter what critics say, no matter what anybody says."

Tyler Perry [51:30]: "I have found a way to navigate through that, to take what I've been given to make sure the actors and actresses are paid well and at the same time, figure out how do I make this work and grow a business."

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7. Current Projects and Representation

Perry touches upon his latest projects, including the upcoming film "The Six Triple Eight," which highlights his commitment to telling meaningful and historically significant stories. He emphasizes the importance of representation and the impact of his work on future generations.

Notable Quotes:

Tyler Perry [70:06]: "At 55, I'm going to be 70 soon... I'm just thinking about the next 15 years and how much of this beautiful gift of the studio is going to be a blessing to that."

Tyler Perry [70:35]: "I am incredibly thankful every time I have a hit... But when it's a shitty movie that hit, that's when I really learn."

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8. Personal Reflections and Growth

In a lighter segment towards the end, Dax and Monica share personal anecdotes, resolutions, and reflections on life, relationships, and self-improvement. This candid exchange adds a relatable and humanizing layer to the episode.

Notable Quotes:

Dax Shepard [86:03]: "The journals... there is something very powerful about seeing that and going like, well, it's up to me."

Monica Padman [90:03]: "Corrective Skin Care is very, very amazing at clearing AA and... she's really amazing."

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9. Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with heartfelt affirmations of Tyler Perry's influence and legacy. Dax commends Perry's unique blend of kindness and firmness, while Perry expresses gratitude for the opportunity to share his story and inspire others.

Notable Quotes:

Dax Shepard [109:03]: "Tyler Perry... might be one of the most unique people I've ever met... something about him was just so Magical."

Tyler Perry [111:57]: "And watching people come through the gates who had never had a shot in this business makes me go, you can go a little further."

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Key Takeaways:

• Resilience Through Adversity: Tyler Perry's journey underscores the transformative power of resilience, forgiveness, and self-awareness in overcoming childhood trauma.

• Importance of Representation: Perry emphasizes the critical role of authentic Black storytelling in reshaping narratives within the entertainment industry.

• Balancing Success and Personal Growth: The conversation highlights the challenges of maintaining personal well-being amidst professional triumphs and the significance of setting healthy boundaries.

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This episode offers listeners an intimate glimpse into Tyler Perry's life, providing valuable insights into his personal struggles, professional achievements, and unwavering commitment to impactful storytelling. Through his candid revelations, Perry inspires others to navigate their own challenges with grace and determination.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by the Duchess of Duluth.

[Monica Padman]

Hi there.

[Dax Shepard]

Great sweater. You got a new sweater with two different colors. Blue, very light on the sleeves.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Starry night in the middle.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, do you think this is blue?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What do you think?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no, it's, it's purple for sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I'll buy that.

[Monica Padman]

It looks blue on the TV back here too. What do you, what do you see? What color is my face to you?

[Dax Shepard]

Pure white.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Like the driven snow. Our guest today is Tyler Perry and I just gotta say right out of the gates, this is a very mind blowing experience. I don't know what I thought about Tyler Perry. Mean, as a person other than I had seen this incredible 60 minute segment on him one time and I knew he had had a really incredible story that he overcame. So I knew that he was very honest and stuff, but just as a, as a human, he was just a very powerful and special presence. My God, did we like this so much.

[Monica Padman]

Really, very, very special. I had an inkling before it would have that extra sparkle on it and it did.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Well, listen, Tyler Perry is a filmmaker, a playwright, an actor. Diary of a Mad Black Woman, Sistas, House of Pain, Madea's Family Reunion, Alex Cross and his new movie out now, which is doing really great. I've noticed it's always in the top couple there on Netflix. The six Triple eight with one of our favorites, Kerry Washington. This is a very, very special episode. Please enjoy Tyler Perry and Happy New Year and Happy New Year and to all a good night. If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It comes with the privacy and security you expect from Apple. Plus you earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interest when you open a High Yield Savings account through Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card in the wallet app subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Apple Card and Savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] we are supported by Quints. When it comes to winter, cozy is king. For the ultimate cold weather necessities made from premium materials, you've gotta check out quince. With quince, you can treat yourself to true quality at an affordable price. Like something everyone needs in Their closet, Quince's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which start at just $50. For real cashmere, that's a great deal. Or their super soft fleece sweatpants, which are a major upgrade to those old sweats you've had forever. No matter what you're looking for, all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And they use premium fabrics and finishes for that high quality feel in every piece.

[Monica Padman]

I saw some of these items appear on a very, very trusted gift guide from a friend.

[Tyler Perry]

Oh, really?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. The sweatpants are on there. People love the sweatpants and really great for travel.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm eyeing those sweatpants. Luxuriate in coziness without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.comdax for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.comdax to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comdax he's an option expert.

[Tyler Perry]

Expert.

[Dax Shepard]

Would you like a coffee or a Diet Coke?

[Monica Padman]

No, that coffee is for you.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's a cream top. It's very famous coffee cream top.

[Tyler Perry]

No, I'm not a coffee person.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not a coffee.

[Monica Padman]

Good for you.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't like some of the things I'm learning about you right away.

[Tyler Perry]

Tell me you're early. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you don't like coffee.

[Tyler Perry]

I love your chair though, man. This is my size chair. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It's a biggie.

[Dax Shepard]

You really should consider ordering one of these online because I didn't realize I was ordering like a big and tall version. Because I'm a big guy and you.

[Tyler Perry]

Could get beside you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My feet barely touch the ground if they do.

[Tyler Perry]

Where this come from online?

[Dax Shepard]

Lazy boy.com.

[Tyler Perry]

Lazy boy.com.

[Dax Shepard]

You got to get someone on Lazy Boy.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you own any Lazy Boys?

[Tyler Perry]

I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't. Because your style esthetic won't permit you to or you're afraid of comfort?

[Tyler Perry]

A little bit of both. A little bit of both. A little bit of both. Don't want to be too comfortable.

[Dax Shepard]

Can't get too comfortable. Did you like miniature things when you were a kid? This is a weird first question, but I can elaborate.

[Tyler Perry]

Please.

[Dax Shepard]

Like you would go to. Where would I see miniature stuff?

[Monica Padman]

A dollhouse store.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I would never be in there. I like the idea of feeling like a giant.

[Tyler Perry]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I would imagine you don't want to be a giant because you're already tall. It's surprising you still have it because you're tall.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, not to jump directly into trauma, but I feel like both of us probably desired to be 80ft tall as kids.

[Tyler Perry]

For me, it was the opposite. I wanted to be small, always slouch, and didn't want to be seen.

[Dax Shepard]

You want to be invisible.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But the notion of being like the Hulk and you can defend yourself and no one can hurt you, that didn't enter the fray.

[Tyler Perry]

No. Because the strong men for me in my life weren't good men. So I wanted to be the opposite. And being tall and being big, I was always at the end of the line and always. Don't hit him back. Listen. My cousin, who was smaller than me, and he would bully me and his mother with my. You can't hit him back. You're too big to hit him back. Just don't hit him back. Just. Just. You're too big.

[Dax Shepard]

You just gotta take it.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Just gotta take it. And one day I lost it. And hung him on the clothesline in the backyard.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. And ran home, told my mother. I was like, I couldn't take it anymore. She said, what'd you do? So she goes and get the kid down, and she's laughing all the way. But, yeah, I want it to be smaller.

[Dax Shepard]

They were kind of right to tell you to not hit back. Cause look what happened when you did.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, exactly.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Tyler Perry]

But that's my thing. I am the most gentle guy in the world until I'm pushed way too far. Then that's a whole nother side.

[Monica Padman]

Pushed to your limit.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Takes a lot to get me there.

[Dax Shepard]

So I was enormous for my size as a kid. And in all the class photos, it looks like I flunked a few grades.

[Tyler Perry]

Because you're so big.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It looks like he's in the wrong class. Did you stand out like that?

[Tyler Perry]

Oh, for sure. I was the tallest and the biggest and the smartest, and it was a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

And this in New Orleans.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. New Orleans.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So what were the virtues that were prized at that time? Obviously not those things.

[Tyler Perry]

No. Growing up, my mother was a woman who completely gave a lot. So it was all about giving and helping each other all the time. And because we didn't have much, but we had more than others in the neighborhood, we were always the place to come if you were in need. And my mother was really. I would wake up in the morning sometime on Saturday morning, step out of the bed, and I would step on somebody on the floor, like, who is this person? And my mom would be like, they needed a place to stay. Shh Be quiet. Don't embarrass them.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really?

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, it was a lot of that, for sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And was she finding these people at church or all over?

[Tyler Perry]

We lived in New Orleans, which was the big city, and most of her family. And the man that raised me, his family were from the small country towns outside. And when the two of them got married and moved to New Orleans, it was family members that took them in. So it was always your door had to be open for somebody else.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. And siblings?

[Tyler Perry]

A brother and two sisters.

[Dax Shepard]

Older brothers or younger?

[Tyler Perry]

Younger brother by 10 years and two sisters by five and six years.

[Dax Shepard]

So did you feel included at all, or do you have little brother complex?

[Tyler Perry]

My brother's 10 years younger than me, so we never were close.

[Dax Shepard]

But with the sisters.

[Tyler Perry]

With the sisters, no. There was always something that was off for me in the family. Like, I didn't feel like I belonged. So I was never able to be extremely close to any of them. It was really, really strange.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I gotta tell you, I saw the 60 Minutes profile you did, however many years ago. It had to be over 10 years ago, probably, and it was insanely moving.

[Tyler Perry]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Particularly when you're visiting that house. And I think we come upon the crawl space. It's not planned, clearly. And you're just having a moment where you go, like, oh, yeah, I hid and I spent so much time in this crawl space.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That was heartbreaking.

[Tyler Perry]

Chantal, you told me this was light and happy. Where we going? Okay. All right, all right. Okay, Monica. Okay. All right, I'm with you.

[Dax Shepard]

You told him light and happy.

[Tyler Perry]

He said it was light and happ. But no, no, no, let's.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm light and happy while talking.

[Tyler Perry]

We're gonna need the weed. Yeah. To walk down the side of the house and see that crawl space, little cubby house where I would hide from the abuse. And it was painted robin egg blue. I remember the blue paint that I found somewhere in a rusted can and painted it with such a beautiful light blue. I now realize that what that blue was for is that people would paint their ceilings or their porches blue so that wasp and other things wouldn't build nests. Cause they thought it was the sky. Oh, really? Southern thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Tyler Perry]

Now realizing that robin egg blue was to represent the sky. It was a pretty painful and rough time. It was hard.

[Monica Padman]

It's a real metaphor also. Like, keep the wasps away.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Or keep looking to the sky. Keep looking up all around you.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, well, look, we can keep it light and fresh.

[Tyler Perry]

No, no, no, no, no. I want to go where you want to go. Let's go, let's go, let's go.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, because I think you and I are among very few men that will say out loud, I got molested. Yeah, I think that's important. I'm sick of talking about it, but I think it's important.

[Tyler Perry]

Let me tell you why I think it's important. The far reaching effects. I don't know about what happened with you, but for me, having my abuser be a female I just found out at 54 was rape. To be able to associate that with rape was weird cause it was a female.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Tyler Perry]

And also the man at church. So the far reaching effects of the trauma of sexual abuse and the sexual confusion that children walk through and tried to fix that I had to walk through was really, really profound. I worked so hard at trying to understand it. That was the most difficult part of my life. Just trying to understand what had happened.

[Dax Shepard]

Why it had happened or why the people that perpetrated it could have done.

[Tyler Perry]

That, why it happened to me and why I couldn't shake what they did.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

And as children we'd have this ability to hold on to the pain of what it was and make it about our fault. Well, what was it in me that made that man do that or that woman do that? And growing up and coming into adulthood and trying to excise that, to get it out, to understand it was really, really challenging.

[Dax Shepard]

I had a very bizarre breakthrough with it that thus far as I share this, I've not heard a lot of people relate to. But the confusion from my perspective was like, yeah, it was man on man. So this opens up this hole, especially where I grew up in Detroit, I guess now I'm gay. So there was like this bad thing happened to me and then I think this makes me gay, which is its own crisis at that time. And so notion I would ever tell anyone wasn't on the table because that would have been telling everyone I was gay again in the 80s in Detroit, where that's not going to work.

[Tyler Perry]

That's death.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. Then hearing once I did say it, oh, it's not your fault, you know, you were a kid. And that just didn't really alleviate any of the. And so for me, the work was. I had to first acknowledge and own my part. This is what people don't like. But for me to get over it, it was. My spidey senses were going off. I was in a place I knew I shouldn't be and I Didn't leave. And I have that pit in my stomach. I can remember how that feels. And I didn't listen to my instincts. I first had to go, yeah, that part happened and I actually got to forgive myself for that. And once I was like, that all happened, you knew better, you should have gotten out. You felt those feelings. It's not like it came out of complete blue for me. And that's okay because you were like 8 years old. And 8 year olds choose poorly. And I did. For me it was allowing myself to forgive the 8 year old who didn't listen to his spidey senses.

[Tyler Perry]

It's powerful, but it's unfair. And I'm tell you why.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what people say.

[Tyler Perry]

I didn't really fully understand it until I had a child. And I could see my son at the age of the traumas that I was experiencing going, look how innocent and beautiful and pure. And this innocent and beautiful, pure child does not have the ability to make those kinds of decisions. So for me it wasn't feeling the sense of, oh, what's happening? What's happening? Is this wrong? This wrong? It was somebody sees me and appreciates me and is telling me I'm special. Someone was kind and their agenda was about grooming rather than it being about kindness. And I tell anyone, any man, any woman who's been sexually abused as a child, if you don't have a child, if you don't have relatives, if you see a kid on the playground, watch, not creepily, but watch the innocence of that child and then try and judge yourself through the innocence of that child. That's unfair.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. And that's what I came to. But I first had to grapple with this guilt feeling head just to hear that it wasn't my fault was not sufficient to make it go away. I needed to kind of confront what was the darkness. The darkness was, I felt like I should have known better and done something differently. And I just needed to explore that.

[Tyler Perry]

That's the man judging the child. Because the man or the teenager or the young man would clearly be like, what are you doing? This is crazy, why are you here? But if you take away the innocence and the lens of the way the child saw it, then you're robbing yourself of it. Here is the most freeing part of it for me that I found at 54 in therapy for the first time in my life, there's something called an arousal template that I had no idea about that from the age of three to seven, I could be wrong on the ages but the therapist will tell you this. 3 to 7, your arousal template is set as a kid, even though you're not sexual. So if someone comes along and interjects something into your arousal template, be it culturally, be it rape and molestation, violence, violence, all of those things being put into your young child brain becomes a part of your arousal template. Especially for men. And for me, being a little boy, the thing that gave me the most shame was when the molester would say, you liked it. Look, you're erect. Yeah, yeah. That's the struggle. How can I be a heterosexual boy, know I like girls and have the same sex thought and desire. That was hard to understand. But understanding that the arousal template in.

[Dax Shepard]

Your brain sets that and has been hijacked.

[Tyler Perry]

And also this is the thing that blew my mind. Once it's set, it can't be taken away. And for me, wrapping my mind and soul around all of that was very freeing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

How did you handle it before you went to therapy? Like, what were you telling yourself?

[Tyler Perry]

A lot of people say, oh, my God, you're so profound. Look how hard you work, look how much you've done. A lot of the success that I've experienced in life was because I wasn't dealing. I was just working. I would work my way through it and relationships wouldn't really work out because I would just work and work and work and work. And no matter how much work that I did, when the work would stop, I'd be faced with these things happen to you. What do you feel about it? Who are you? What are you? And I just got to a place in my life where it's like, I'm not going to live this way anymore. And at 55, I'm the freest and clearest version of myself that I've ever been.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's wonderful. All of it's a sword, right? So I would argue that part of your arousal template being set in the way it was does predispose you to be able to handle what comes your way and results in the success. So my thing is, I thrive when shit's hitting the fan and spent a lot of my life seeking those out. We set this thing at a 50 instead of a 10.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's like I'm asleep and I really gotta be aware of how to get out of this situation.

[Tyler Perry]

I'm sorry, man.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, same for you.

[Tyler Perry]

What I did know, because recently I've been doing all these tests. When I went to this session, they were like, okay, let's test fee for autism. Because there Are certain things that you are doing that are on the spectrum. So we went through all of these tests and what we found is that a child like me having to live in that kind of chaos and trauma constantly. I became hyper vigilant in everything. I trained my brain to see, to watch, to protect myself in every way, which is where I work today.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

So for you to say that you were in a moment of chaos is where you've thrived. It's what happened to the little boy and what he needed to be okay or to feel like he was loved. And I've run into people like that, and it's one of the saddest things that I've seen because the more I try and say, hey, this is what peace feels like, there's all of this resistance to it because it's scary.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. I was set on this trajectory. There's some parts of me I'm going to have to accept. I'm not going to erase the hard drive from the arousal format, which is.

[Tyler Perry]

Very important to understand because you can make yourself insane trying to figure out what has happened, why is affecting me in this way. I've had very few sexual partners at 55, and people go, oh, my God, you're this huge guy. Really? Success. Sure. You're all over the world. No, not me. I do believe that all things work together for your good, Even though if they're awful and horrible, I have to believe that. Which put me in a wonderful position in running the studio. Because when you have people coming to you with their dreams in their hands and they need a job or want to be on a show, if I had been another person, then maybe I would have been doing things that were horrible. But because of what I went through and because of how much I understand the pain of that, I would never inflict that on anybody. So it put me in this great position to help as many people as I could safely hit this next level in their lives. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Tyler Perry]

So all of that is incredibly important to me.

[Dax Shepard]

What's interesting is I think you and I went almost in opposite directions based on similar things, which is kind of fascinating.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. And that happens. I had a friend who had been sexually abused and he had hundreds of partners, while at the same time he was abandoned by his mother. So you could give him 10,000 females and it wouldn't fulfill what he was looking for. Yeah. Yeah. And he and I finally sat down, had some real deep conversations about what's going on. I even hired a private detective to try to find the mother that abandoned him so that he could talk to her. I was thinking that hopefully that would help him.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Closure.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. There are people who go to these incredible extremes. You can go that way where everything is sex, and then you go the other way, where, for me, I didn't want to be thought of as sexy. Being tall was a problem because when people would see me, they'd think, oh, this tall black guy, the stereotype or whatever that is.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you embody masculinity in our simplest definition or stereotype.

[Tyler Perry]

Yes. So carrying all of that and trying to walk through and work all of that out was a journey for sure. Sure.

[Monica Padman]

When you would have sexual partners, did you feel like, sorry, this is so personal. But what did you feel after the fact? Were you like, I didn't like that I don't like sex anymore or I'm ruined or I'm fraudulent. What were the feelings?

[Tyler Perry]

There was one woman who I was completely in love with. I was in my early 30s at the time. Because I wasn't very experienced, I felt less than inadequate. Inadequate. And that was something that made me shy further away and back into myself of going, okay, I don't want to be judged based on my lack of experience because of what I've been through.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It's a weird cycle.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. So at 54 this past summer, I've been thinking about it for a while. It's like, okay, Tyler, you've worked this hard. You've got this beautiful kid. You've had this amazing life. What happens when you're not working? Why aren't you happy when you're not working? Because the work became the drug and the adrenaline. So to take that moment and stop the work and say, okay, let's go and look inside and see what's happening and see the full effect. This program I did was so fantastic. Before you go in, there are thousands of questions that you answer. So they have a clinical profile of who you are mentally walking in the door. For me to walk in and be confirmed in who I thought I was was so freeing to have all of these therapists. I think it was nine that I saw in total because it's a very intensive thing for seven days, 10 hours a day, and then you sit in the room and all the therapists talk about you, and you listen.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Tyler Perry]

Oh, wow. And to hear them talking and affirming the good person that I know that I am and. And the way to work through them was very freeing for me. This one woman I love, she would say to me every day, I Walk in. Because when you go through these profiles, it's like, do you drink? I was like, I have drink on occasion. Have you ever done any drugs? And, like, no. I tried this pot when I was 40. Didn't really like it. I have a gummy every now and then, but if I get too weird, I don't like feeling out of control. But they were fascinated because I'm not an addict.

[Dax Shepard]

That's shocking to me.

[Monica Padman]

It is.

[Dax Shepard]

You were like, an 80% chance of being an addict, and that's exactly what.

[Tyler Perry]

They were saying to me. And there were these group sessions. I'm going. I'm not going to be in these group sessions, man. I'm tired of Perry. I don't know about this.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

And she said to me, there have been people who've come here who were famous, who did not do the sessions and came back to do the group sessions. So I was in the group with these wonderful people who had shit that they were dealing with to sit in and hear their stories and made me find the commonality. There was a through line for all of us. And I think that for all of humanity, man. As much as I'm excited to be here talking to you, my hope is that by sharing this, somebody hears something that goes, maybe that's what I'm dealing.

[Dax Shepard]

With a thousand percent. Tyler. Because owning a studio is not very relatable. But the other stuff is. You read the Body keeps a score on any of these books. It's like 30%. I mean, it's huge numbers of us who have gone through this stuff. And you would think you're the only one. At least when we grew up, and.

[Tyler Perry]

We grew up in a time where you could not talk about it.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Tyler Perry]

Because if you said anything, you're gay. And being gay at that time was a horrible, taboo thing. I'm so glad we're at a place now where people can just be themselves. There was a kid recently, I don't know a lot of younger singers and performers, but he was singing on stage. And I saw him talking about his sexuality, trying to figure it out. And my heart went out to him because he's so young. And what I wanted to scream was, look into the arousal template, figure out what happened, walk it through so that you're clear, in a sense, of this is what happened. And also, there's so much shame. You have to chase the shame down of what that feels like. And that's the thing that freed me just to look at it. Like, I am ashamed of the why and also understanding that was not my fault. I did not deserve that. They gave that to me and it wasn't mine to carry. Here's the thing that I've been trying to work through the most. As long as I have been dealing with what they both gave me to carry, it has denied me the ability to love freely, openly, and be in a relationship that is healthy and whole for a very long period of time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

I have another friend on a guy's trip in Jackson. We're sitting around talking and he's talking about how when he was 6, his older brothers were making him have sex with these women. And he's laughing and he's joking about. He's laughing at everybody around the table. They're all making jokes and I'm quiet and I'm just like, guys, I'm sorry, I gotta challenge you on this. He's like, no, no, no, no. So when we got to a moment where we could talk in private, he broke. Because I had him look at his. I was like, is that okay for your 6 year old? And then it's like, whoa. Because you realize you've been judging the child that you are through the lens of your adult life.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so misleading, for sure. Can I ask really quick? How do you feel about men in general? I'm kind of relieved to hear you were on a dude's trip in Jackson. I'm not expecting you to be excited to become friends with men.

[Tyler Perry]

Really? Why?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, given the dad, and that seems very scary and that perhaps men in general.

[Tyler Perry]

No, no. I've got great guy friends, great female.

[Dax Shepard]

For me, most of that carnage was driven by dudes.

[Tyler Perry]

My mother was the balance for everything for me, and she wouldn't let me see things one way. She worked at a Jewish community center for most of my childhood. She would educate me about what Jewish people went through. My mother just would not let me see things one way. So I wouldn't lean toward one group or one sex of a group. I always base people on, are you a good person? And I have a really good sense of people, which came from that. That childhood of being hypervigilant.

[Monica Padman]

When I walk in, I'm like, yeah, are you skeptical? When you walk in, are you like, I'm not skeptical.

[Tyler Perry]

I'm immediate on what I feel. I don't talk myself out of what I feel.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So I think that's the gift that I've come to realize I'm grateful for, which is someone sits down in here and I know within 30 seconds if they've had our childhood.

[Tyler Perry]

Exactly right.

[Dax Shepard]

I see how they look at the doors in the room. I see how they look over at Rob. And I just go, oh, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. We're on the same team here.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. And also the understanding of what we had to survive and how our brains talked us. It's like a deer drinking water. They're always looking up. They can't just drink the water and relax. I drove into my property the other day and there was one laying down. I had never seen a deer lay down. And the deer was laying there and looked at me as I just rode by on my bike and never got up. And I thought, what a great place to get to in life where you can just lay down in a green.

[Dax Shepard]

Pasture and just be okay and not be fearful. Do you have a hard time sleeping?

[Tyler Perry]

No, I sleep well.

[Dax Shepard]

And you always have. Or is that post trip to this great place?

[Tyler Perry]

I don't know if I always have, but what I know I do is work myself to exhaustion. So the sleep is good. But I also do know how to stop and check in, see if I'm okay. Go away, get quiet. I like to be alone. I'm a loner by nature. I could spend days and weeks and months in the mountains by myself.

[Dax Shepard]

You have to police yourself, I imagine, with isolation, of course, especially having a.

[Tyler Perry]

10 year old now, it's like, hey, hey, dad. Hello. Soccer practice over here.

[Dax Shepard]

Real life's happening, happening over here.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so he's 10. Yeah, I have 10 and 11. It's so fun.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, he's so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So at a certain point, again, it'd be shocking to people, I think, to learn that someone as smart as you, you didn't graduate high school.

[Tyler Perry]

I got put out of high school and had to go to PM high school to get my diploma. It was a high school that was at night after school for adults and people who got kicked out of school.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Dudes who were smoking cigarettes in the.

[Tyler Perry]

Parking lot, who wanted to go to school.

[Dax Shepard]

And then in your early 20s, you're watching Oprah.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Picture that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're watching Oprah. You learn about journaling as a way to process your thoughts. And you really decide to take that up.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. I was looking through some things recently and I ran across one of my old journals from that era, the early 2000s. And I opened it up and I started reading and I just sat there. I was reading for hours. I called Oprah up. I was like, listen, go pull out your journals and read some of the stuff you were going through 20, 30 years ago. It was so spiritual. I was in tears. It's like you had written your own bible of the things that you had come through. And to go back and look at them and see how far you've come was so beautiful to me. So I would tell anybody, journal, write and then go back years later and.

[Dax Shepard]

See when you were reading the one from 20 years ago, what were you wrestling with that you now realize your past? Does it also give you a sense of humor about all the stuff you obsess about?

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, I was just like, oh, hope the show works. I don't know how I'm gonna pay this. Light bills, $3,000. I go back and look at those things going, look at where you were. I'd come through being homeless, so I was writing it from the point of view of where I was and not where I was going. Understanding where you're going is so much more important. I've learned to build for where I'm going rather than where I am. And looking back on all of that stuff and reading all of those moments and those memories, it really was powerful for me.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Tyler Perry]

Show.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you started at what age do you think?

[Tyler Perry]

18 or 19? I was watching a show and I started journaling and I didn't use my name because at that time we wouldn't talk about the things that you and I just talked about.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right.

[Tyler Perry]

I would use these different characters and a friend of mine found them and goes, man, this is a really good play. And I thought, hmm, maybe it is a play. What I write about is this character went through this. I was talking about adult survivors of child abuse and rape and molestation. So I moved to Atlanta.

[Dax Shepard]

Prior to that, did you ever fancy being a writer?

[Tyler Perry]

I didn't.

[Dax Shepard]

What was your rationale? You're clearly very bright. It's not working in school, it's not working at home. What were you thinking you were destined to do? Were you so confused?

[Tyler Perry]

I definitely wanted to be an architect. The man that raised me was a builder and I wanted to build houses. But when I wrote this, I always loved entertainment, but I never thought you can audition.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You're trying to be invisible, not center stage.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. So having my friend encourage me and doing that first play and seeing people, the 1200 that I thought would show up and only 30 did.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

Having the 30 people's reaction to the show speak to me and my soul, I was like, whoa. So that sparked something for me.

[Dax Shepard]

And you went in this incredible journey. So you moved to Atlanta in 1990.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Early 90s.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think we gotta do one second on it. Seems obvious to me, but why Atlanta From New Orleans?

[Tyler Perry]

Hurricane Katrina literally blew the roof off the poverty that was in New Orleans. Mardi Gras is amazing and the tourists are on Bourbon street and St. Charles Avenue and it's beautiful and it's amazing, but two blocks behind those mansions is where we were in the ghetto with drive by shootings and police brutality and murders and it was just insane. So some friends of mine invited me to Freaknik, which is the black spring break. Black kids went to Atlanta, white kids went to the beach for spring break. I don't know what that was about, but I got there and while everybody's partying and dancing and drinking and I'm realizing that I see black people doing well.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm from Detroit, so I would go down to Atlanta and I'd be like, this is a completely different version than I've ever seen. There's black folks in Escalades and they have nice houses, they're at the nice restaurant. This was unimaginable in Detroit in the 90s.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. And I think I'm probably six years older than you.

[Dax Shepard]

Five. Yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

So you get it. And being a black person and then never seeing a black person be successful unless it was a pimp or a preacher to come to Atlanta and see their doctors, their lawyers, they're in suits.

[Dax Shepard]

A full middle class.

[Tyler Perry]

I'm home. So I loaded up my Hyundai and move right to Atlanta.

[Dax Shepard]

You put up a play and as you say, only 35 folks.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, 30. Okay, don't give me the other five.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna give you five $12 a ticket. I in and out of the bathroom. You didn't count.

[Tyler Perry]

I would count that. Yeah, that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

You undertake from that moment something that is, I think, very rare in our business, which is you then take the next six years, I guess, to refine, to rewrite, to rework, to restage.

[Tyler Perry]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, no wonder it was impossible.

[Tyler Perry]

To make your research. That's good, that's good. But no, it was the same show. And every year I would try to do it, it would fail. But there was somebody in the audience out at every show. This is what I call a ram in the bush, who wanted to invest in it every time. The most I saw was prob 1400 people in New Orleans in a theater that sat 3000. But out of that somebody said, well, let's keep this going. Because during this time there were a lot of plays, these black shows that were traveling the country and making lots of money for black people. It was on something that's affectionately called the chitlin circuit.

[Dax Shepard]

The rename's weird. Urban.

[Tyler Perry]

There's a rename?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they rebranded it.

[Tyler Perry]

Well, kind of like Aunt Jemima. You have to rebrand it. I'm just going to call this shit what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The chilling circuit is when black performers could not perform in white establishments. They would travel all over the south into all of these different places and become famous among their own people. So here I am doing this play in the early 90s and hitting some of these spots where black people were allowed to go everywhere. But the spirit of the chitlin circuit was still there where black people supported each other. And for my play to not work all of those years, then in 1998, take off one night.

[Dax Shepard]

So the play itself didn't change all that much.

[Tyler Perry]

It didn't change. You know what changed? The play was about adult survivors of child abuse who had forgiven their abuser. Cause it was a happy ending. They all forgave the abuser, the woman who did all this stuff to him. And I hadn't forgiven my father. So it was hypocritical that I'm in this seat and I'm talking about forgiveness. And it hadn't happened for me. So in 98, he and I got into a really heated argument, the man who raised me, and I forgave him. And that is when the show changed.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Tyler Perry]

It was spiritual for me. I went from nobody being in the audience to having eight sold out shows after I forgave him. And the forgiveness was such a scary thing for me because I didn't realize. Realize how powerful it was for me. It was my anchor. You're with me. What are you thinking? You got something on your mind to.

[Dax Shepard]

Say, well, I'm dead with you. A. I'm thinking resentment is drinking poison, hoping the other person dies. My own father, my resentments. I'm thinking of you being Christian, how it's probably compounded that you weren't able to achieve forgiveness in the context you were in.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but also anger is helpful. If you take away anger, you have to make room for compassion. And that is very hard to do. It's much more grand.

[Tyler Perry]

The ripping away of my anger toward him was like a car that kind of runs on gasoline. Then all of a sudden you fill it with diesel and say, go be motivated. Because everything I was doing, every time I was trying to work, it was like, I'm gonna make some money. I'm gonna take care of my mother. I'm gonna prove to you that I am something. Cause you said I wasn't shit. Once that was gone and I forgave him, it didn't matter anymore. I had no motivation to keep going. Even though the purest sense of where I started was about making Enough money to take care of my mother so she didn't have to be with them. So. So forgiving him ripped that from me. I had to figure out, okay, how do you operate now? I also found this out in therapy. I shifted from the anger to caregiving. And I did not know that my caregiving was a problem.

[Dax Shepard]

Is the caregiving still an attempt to be safe?

[Tyler Perry]

The caregiving is an attempt to save everybody else. But I hear what you're saying.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm trying to find this crossover because I don't trust people. What's someone going to do? And then I have tactics. So if you're a woman and you're in love with me, I feel safe. Because you're probably not going to hurt me. If you love me, if you're a man and I think I can dominate, you're going to know not to try to hurt me. If I can make everyone in this room laugh, I'm totally safe. Because people aren't swinging when they're laughing. So I have these techniques. And I guess I would have just imagined that if you're the caretaker and you're benevolent, you would expect the reciprocity would be kindness.

[Tyler Perry]

That's exactly right. I would expect that if I'm kind to you, you'll be kind to me, or you'll be kind to somebody else. However.

[Dax Shepard]

It doesn't work that way.

[Tyler Perry]

However, yes, I let all that go years ago. I gave up expectations, which was a problem.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not an aa, but you be great in aa.

[Tyler Perry]

Is that right?

[Dax Shepard]

Expectations are resentments under construction. That's the.

[Tyler Perry]

Wow. I gave up expectations because I thought, if I'm good to this person, if I'm kind to this person, if I'm doing this and they give me their ass to kiss or just become horrible, then I'm gonna feel bad because they did that. Rather than going, I'm just gonna be good to you. Whether you do whatever you wanna do or not. You do what works for you. I'm just gonna be good to you.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? For me.

[Tyler Perry]

For me. Because my entire life was based on the anger, and now I've shifted. So I've gotta do this for me. But where it became a problem. And I could not wrap my brain around this. When I first started talking to these folks saying, tyler, caregiving is a problem, I'm like, how is that a problem? It's such a good thing. Yeah, it's a problem if you're using it to cover what you're dealing with. So I was caring for everybody else. So I wasn't dealing with what I was dealing with or going through.

[Monica Padman]

You weren't caring for yourself.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's kind of like the classic codependent paradigm, too. Right. And I imagine you probably collected folks that needed a lot of help. Not intentionally.

[Tyler Perry]

I absolutely didn't think it was intentional. But as I look at my life.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, it's a suspicious amount.

[Tyler Perry]

Beyond suspicious. I have a tremendous amount of people who need a lot of help.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, you've come up multiple times on this show from people you've helped. We had Prince Harry on. You opened doors to him. You are someone who extends yourself. And you said your mom did it, too. So I assume there's also a deep knowing because she did that as well.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But you're known to be very generous.

[Tyler Perry]

That's incredibly kind. Thank you, Monica.

[Monica Padman]

I appreciate that.

[Tyler Perry]

It's good when people will acknowledge it and say it, so it's really great. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

It's frustrating and confusing when it actually leads to their resentment. And understandably, once you unplug from the whole system, yeah, they feel shittier and they weirdly resent you because you're helping. You're sort of a reminder that they need help. And that's a very tricky dynamic to navigate.

[Tyler Perry]

I set limits on how far I'm going to go. I'm going to help you to this point. And you got to get up and be on your own because I'm not going to let you be dependent on me for everything. And then they get angry because of where you stop.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Tyler Perry]

I've seen that. Of course.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

But listen, it's okay. It's not okay, but it's life. You keep moving. You deal with their anger, whatever way it comes. But I always know my intention. My intention is pure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Monica, cut this out because I say it too often, but my mother said the best thing to me ever.

[Tyler Perry]

Why do you want to cut it out?

[Dax Shepard]

Because I say it too much. It just sounds redundant. But we can leave it in if you want.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Because if you say it a lot, then somebody may hear it for the first time.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. You can be the judge of it. So I call my mom. I'm complaining about someone else asking me for money. And she's very generous and lets me go on and on. Comforts me. And then she says, says, you know, Dax, in life, you can either be the person calling for help or you can be the person that gets called for help. Who do you want to be? And I was like, oh, Definitely the person that gets called for help.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but that's come to bite you a little bit because you don't like calling anyone for help. And everyone needs to call someone for help every now and then.

[Dax Shepard]

That's. That's true. That's true. But just given those options, it was very helpful for me to reframe my frustration with it, which is like, well, I could be in the other side of the situation equation.

[Tyler Perry]

There's another option there because I found this out because I was helping so many people and they just kept coming back, kept coming back. Oh, I need this, I need that. I was praying about it, and I clearly hear this voice which I believe inside of me to be the voice of God. It's like, stop. You are blocking a midnight. And I thought about that. I went back and looked at what midnight represented in the Bible. Sometimes God designs midnights for people to go through. And if you run and rescue them all the time, you're not making them better. You've robbed them of the thing that.

[Dax Shepard]

Would make them better, that might change them.

[Tyler Perry]

Or be that thing that gets them up and gets them on their feet and gets them going.

[Dax Shepard]

The catalyst.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So you forgive your father. That's fascinating. People should know not to make you go through it again, but you were born a junior, and at 16, you changed your name. So just to accentuate the stakes that were on this relationship, it was very strained from childhood.

[Tyler Perry]

I knew this man was not my.

[Dax Shepard]

Father, and it turned out to not be your father, which is crazy.

[Monica Padman]

Wow, you just knew it.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you talk to Kerry about this?

[Monica Padman]

Kerry Washington. She had a son.

[Dax Shepard]

She was on about her book and that estrangement from the family and not being able to put your finger on it and that fucking huge looming. What is going on?

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, but I was a kid, asking my mother all of my life, remember asking, is he my father? Her answer would always be the same. I hate to tell you this, baby, but he's your father. I asked her on her deathbed, is he my father? Same answer. I hate to tell you this, but he's your father. It's 15 years ago this week that I'm dealing with this. So I'm a little emotional as I'm thinking about it. When she died, it didn't sit well with me. So I did a DNA test with my brother and I. DNA tests come back. We don't have the same.

[Dax Shepard]

So I'm like, okay, well, one of us isn't Dad's.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, But I knew he was his. He is his spitting image. Everything. His attitude, his voice. So then I do another test with the man himself. And I'm not his child. And if I could wake my mother up for five minutes, I'd be like, hey, can you just tell me? Because what I want her to know is that I wouldn't judge her. She was 24 years old. This man was beating the shit out of her. She was in misery. And if there was a man that loved, hooray for her. That makes me smile and happy to know that somebody loved her because of the way he was treating her.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Any moment of comfort you would want for her.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. But on the other hand, my mother was deathly afraid to be in the house by herself. There's a story of her being home alone with my two sisters. I wasn't born yet. And she was screaming and banging on the wall. It was a double house for the neighbors to come over and help. Cause somebody was trying to break in the house. That's all I know about the story. I. I don't feel that I'm the product of a rape, but because I have all of these looming questions that are out there, I wish she had just told me.

[Monica Padman]

If she knew, she might have believed this. Whether she knew or didn't know, you can start believing a story. I think we talked about that with Carrie. In some ways, I think everyone just believed it.

[Tyler Perry]

That's right. My mother was an extremely kind, giving and loving woman. But she's also very, very private. So I want to give her the dignity of what she believed. But I knew it from childhood.

[Dax Shepard]

Isn't that weird?

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it wasn't cause of physical resemblance?

[Tyler Perry]

No. It was just I could not understand how this man could look at me with such hate.

[Dax Shepard]

So you believe he knew as well?

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. And then there were clues. I think I was probably in my late teens, early 20s. They were sitting out on the porch and he said to her, oh, that's where that boy gets those eyes from. My eyes are kind of webbed in between. And she tells me, and she's like. He said, you have my eyes. And I thought, you've been married to this man for 30 years and he didn't know what your eyes looked like. So those kind of moments that made me go, hm, so you're wondering where my eyes came from. And you finally see her in there. So it was a different time back then.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay. So you find some forgiveness for him.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Are you cool now? Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

You cold?

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Have you cooled off?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I have.

[Tyler Perry]

All Right. Turn that off.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great.

[Tyler Perry]

Okay. Turn it off.

[Monica Padman]

We didn't have.

[Tyler Perry]

Are you cool Now?

[Dax Shepard]

That could have meant so many things. Cool.

[Tyler Perry]

No, no, no. I'm sorry. Because it blows right here.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. We just had Morgan Freeman on. He did not. He did not like the air. I did.

[Dax Shepard]

But then conversely, we had Jeff Bridges on, and he hated how hot it was. So it's like. I don't know. What are you gonna fucking pick? You can't trust anyone in that Z.

[Tyler Perry]

That's right. That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

So lo and behold, these plays become hugely successful. The amount of them you were doing is staggering.

[Tyler Perry]

You're doing 300 a year, sometimes 360, 370 a year.

[Dax Shepard]

And not in one theater. So you're traveling.

[Tyler Perry]

It's all over the country. Eight and nine shows a week, sometimes 10.

[Dax Shepard]

It becomes impossibly successful.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. If you look at Maxine's baby, that's my mother's name on Prime Video, it kind of lays out the whole story. It's pretty fascinating for people to.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so there's a doc about that.

[Tyler Perry]

Oh, a documentary about my life that Armani, Ortiz and the mother of my child did. Cause she was the only one I would trust to give that kind of access to me. They followed me for 10 years, and it tells the whole story from when I started all the way up until the studio opening.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I'm definitely watching that. I'm ashamed that I don't know that yet I spent all this time reading about you.

[Tyler Perry]

It's her fault.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The light and airy, fun armchair experts. I don't want to embarrass you, but there's a point where, at least minimally, Forbes goes, this show has generated $100 million. It' generated 20 million in merch. At that age, you must be more successful than you had ever even dreamt of.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. But it wasn't enough. I was scared.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, because that's my question. So in my mind, all this was gonna fix a lot of stuff.

[Tyler Perry]

I didn't think it would fix a lot of things. I was worried about it staying. How long is this gonna stay? And I'll never forget telling my mother she could retire. She had diabetes. She was very ill, working with the kids at the center. And I was saying, you should retire. And I hung up the phone, just praying, God, please let these place keep working so I can take care of her. I just worried every day that it was gon. Yeah, it's a scary feeling. All of a sudden, there's money, there's Income, there's more than enough. My pathology wasn't more than enough. My pathology was you got money when you ran out of money, because that's how it was. You had to wait till the next two weeks to get your next check. So to go from having nothing and being homeless, living on the street to the first year of making money, making one hundred and something thousand dollars and getting to the end of the year and not having a dime to pay taxes because I had given it all away, and then the next year making a million and the next year 7 million. It was all of this learning in. And I had no one to teach me or walk me through or talk to me about how this works or what this means. Nobody in my family any money.

[Dax Shepard]

Were there not mentors available or you weren't good at availing yourself to mentorship?

[Tyler Perry]

There weren't any available.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I'm going to grant you that.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Even in Atlanta.

[Tyler Perry]

Right. And also, I didn't trust, because if you told me this was going to work or to do this or to do that or invest in this, I just didn't trust it. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So I wouldn't trust it either. But mine would be, you want something. If you're just going to be nice to me, there's no way I would trust a mentor. They must have an ulterior motive. That's my hang up with mentorship.

[Tyler Perry]

You still feel that way?

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's lessened. I mean, we're talking about stuff that's like 30 years old and 10 years old and 8 years old, but no, it's lessened. And I can ask people now.

[Tyler Perry]

Lessened. But it's still there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but, yeah, that's how deep that fear is, I guess. Here's this man who's got status and wealth and he likes me for some reason, and my next thing is to have a dream where he wants to get sexual.

[Tyler Perry]

That's the sad part of where we come from. Our traumas, the things we've been through, will automatically make our antennas go up and think, why are you being so nice to me? What's wrong with you? You've got wealth, you're after something. Yeah, I used to work so hard to try and dispel that for people like, no, this is just about somebody being kind to you. Because I know what that's like for somebody to be kind to me. I've given away cars and houses and paid for kids to go through college and did so much stuff for people that it got to a point where I was like, I Don't want to meet them. I don't want to shake their hands. I want to just stand over here and see that they're doing well. Because I don't want them to have that mentality of me.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Tyler Perry]

Probably they're like, yeah, Imagine somebody walking up to you and your car's broken down to give you a new car. What do you want? What is this going to cost me? Rather than just understanding that there are people on the planet who are just.

[Dax Shepard]

Kind, well, and let's add now on the other side of it, which this state of mind was truly unimaginable for me growing up poor, which is like, oh, the only joy I'm actually getting out of this thing that I thought was going to be so spectacular is giving people shit. I don't mean like family members. I mean tipping an obnoxious amount every time I eat a cheap meal. That's more fun than anything. That server doesn't need to worry. Worry that I'm a creep that wants to do something.

[Tyler Perry]

Exactly. What does that do for that person? What does this do for your spirit, you as a person? And how do you pay it forward? That's what I always say. What can I do? Nothing. Pay it forward.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Find someone that's gonna be in shittier spot than you are.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So then going into movies, there's a point where the show's incredible. It's generating a ton of money. You're working too hard, which is your dream 24 7. No time to think about anything. Why get out of that?

[Tyler Perry]

We went from two 2000 seat theaters to arenas and couldn't meet the demand. So I thought, okay, there's a hunger for this kind of storytelling. So let me move into television.

[Dax Shepard]

Got it. It was just a bigger arena.

[Tyler Perry]

It was a bigger arena and I didn't have to be everywhere at once. I could be on a screen in 2,000 locations. And that's when I really began to understand this lack of representation for black people in storytelling and especially my kind of storytelling for black people. Because there were lots of shows that were directed at black, but they weren't told from the point of view of a black person who had experienced it. So that's why I think shows, movies are still going to number one is because I'm telling it from a point of view that we really get, no matter what critics say, no matter what anybody says. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Weirdly, we've already laid the groundwork for this and I was talking about it in the trauma aspect. So I wanted to hear from you how you process that huge dissonance between what it's doing commercially and what it's doing critically. And so my own pet peeve about this is I think it's people removed from that situation, telling the people in the situation how they're supposed to process it and enjoy it and like it. There's something very condescending about that specific type of criticism.

[Tyler Perry]

I don't like metal music. Metal is not my thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Sure.

[Tyler Perry]

I can't relate to it, but I don't criticize it and I don't judge it because it's not for me. It's not directed to me. It's not something that I can say, I like this music. So this music scrap. No, that's just not for me. And it's the same way when I think about the work that I do. It is specific in nature and it speaks to a specific audience to have a critic come along and say, well, you have zero percent on Rotten Tomatoes. Like, fuck your tomatoes. Because when I was first starting out, I had two critics in my show at the Kodak Theater sit on the same row. I watched them make notes throughout the show, too. They reviewed the exact same show. They saw the exact same thing. I read both reviews. It's the last time I read reviews. And one guy thought it was amazing. The other guy thought it was the worst thing he'd ever seen. So I thought, hmm, this is opinions. This is what people think. And it doesn't really matter as long as I'm clear about the intention of what I'm doing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but, you know, I think there's something a little deeper going on with your work, particularly. So, yes, two people could watch the Graduate, and they're going to have different opinions, but I'm going to argue. And this is something that's very burbling up all around us, and no one really wants to talk about it, which is. There is an elitism.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, for sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's condescending and it's judgmental, and people feel it, and they go out and vote in response to that. And I think this particular thing reeks of elitism. It reeks of we know better. You should be doing this. You should be showing what should be, not what you experience and recognize. There's something about it that feels very removed and judgmental. It doesn't feel like it's coming from the inside and being judgmental.

[Tyler Perry]

I would agree.

[Dax Shepard]

This happened to Sandler, to critics fucking hated him. Every movie is an enormous. A third of the country loves the movie. Now, I have different opinions than other people, and I might not like stuff or like stuff, but I like to think I don't get onto a soapbox of it's low brow or it's cheap or it's bad or mine's better or superior. It's just, all right, that audience likes this, this audience gets that, and audiences get what they want without the deep judgment of it all.

[Tyler Perry]

Completely true. Also, to layer that is the understanding of what it's taken for me to be able to be in this business and to have this many hits and this much success and have to fight tooth and nail to. To get a budget that's anywhere near a Sandler movie.

[Dax Shepard]

Despite all the success, despite all of.

[Tyler Perry]

It, still to this day, it's wild with Paramount of these shows on BET that do huge numbers for my audience, but the budgets are far lower than any of the other shows that are on some of the other parts of.

[Dax Shepard]

Paramount with comparable audiences, for sure.

[Tyler Perry]

And then it's like, oh, no, no. We have a formula for you, which is basically, you are black. This is your box. Here's where you stay. Because your audience is going to do this much for in returns. And that has been since I've been in the business. So I have found a way to navigate through that, to take what I've been given to make sure the actors and actresses are paid well and at the same time, figure out how do I make this work and grow a business. It's been challenging.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

Because I would like to have one opportunity to have an even playing field, just one where it said, okay, here's your track record.

[Monica Padman]

Do it. Who else?

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. Your string of movies that are gigantic hits, I'm gonna add, just for fun. Do you know who Joy Bryan is?

[Tyler Perry]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. She and I were married on a TV show together for six years, but when we saw each other every day at work, I would say, Heller. And she'd go, lurch? Who's talking about Lurch?

[Tyler Perry]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

And it was our favorite. Our salutation for six years was Heller. What you talking about Lurch? Nobody's talking about Lurch.

[Tyler Perry]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Culturally, a world all her own.

[Dax Shepard]

Love it. So once you get into tv, I do have one logistical question. When you do House of Pain first season, I'm presuming you just funded 10. You went out and made 10 episodes.

[Tyler Perry]

Yes, I did. Because I was talking to my agent and said, I want to do a sitcom. And they're like, oh, well, just do one. I was like, no, no, no. I feel like I need to do 10. They're like, Tyler, nobody does 10. That's not how this works.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not how this works.

[Tyler Perry]

I was like, no, no, no. I want to do 10. They're like, okay. So I went to Atlanta, filmed the first 10. They were awful, okay? And I put them in the can, and nobody wanted them in Hollywood. Then the UPN and WB merged. I think they became the CW. And at the time, there were about 10 or 12 black shows on the air. Those shows all went away. So all the affiliates, this is during the world of syndication, were pissed. So they were calling around Hollywood. What do you have? What do you have? He's like, well, I got this guy, Tyler Perry's got 10 episodes. And they're like, Tyler, you got those 10. They want them like, okay. So they put them on. And all these different affiliates, the ratings were higher than what was there before. Blew their minds.

[Dax Shepard]

So just explain the affiliate for people. So you've got, in your town, Atlanta, you got your own news station that's its own affiliate of NBC. But there's hours of the day where they don't have programming.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, exactly. They don't have the programming to put things in. Or after the primetime hours, they wouldn't have the show to put in. So when they put this show in, it got these crazy numbers and they all just went crazy. And they're like, oh, Tyler is so great. We got a call from this network. They want to order 10 more now. The. And say, oh, we want 20. I was like, no, I want 100. I want 90 episodes. Everybody's like, what are you talking about?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you keep timing this by 10, and you shouldn't. You make one pilot, not 10. And then you get nine episodes with the back order.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. And they told me, it's not going to happen. Nobody's going to do that. I was like, well, I'm not doing it, because I knew 100 mint syndication, right. So I wanted somebody to commit to 100 episodes. And that was Turner. TBS.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you watched that doc by chance?

[Tyler Perry]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Ted Turner on Max.

[Tyler Perry]

You want to turn that back on, don't you?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, go ahead. So bad. But I'll sit.

[Tyler Perry]

Go ahead.

[Dax Shepard]

What's your heat level right now?

[Tyler Perry]

I'm with you. Turn it on.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Tyler Perry]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

You know what a solution would be, is to actually use the thermostat on it and just not make it frigid, that seems.

[Tyler Perry]

Or just turn it on. Just freeze yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

Now watch this. I'm going to go up to 20. It's also in Celsius.

[Tyler Perry]

Okay, then we're all screwed.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, let's travel to Europe right now and enjoy some Celsius.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Because what I'm so confused about is when I go to the Wikipedia page for House of Pain, it says, like, 336 episodes, which. Impossible.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, I think we're at 400 something now.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. And I go, no, there's no show has 400 episodes. And then I'm looking at the breakdown of seasons, and, yeah, it says season one is 10, and then says season two 100.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

How does that work? Were they airing twice a week?

[Tyler Perry]

I don't know how they were airing. All I know is I was working my ass off. It took me nine months to shoot all hundred. I would shoot two or three episodes a day.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my Lord.

[Tyler Perry]

But all of that was because of the situation I was in.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? The economics demanded, how do I shoot this quickly?

[Tyler Perry]

Because they're not giving me the money. How do you make this work? Even now, when I'm doing movies, I'll shoot a movie in five days, seven days, 18 days.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Tyler Perry]

Because when I'm talking to the dp, unless there are certain specific shots that we want at specific time of day, I'm like, listen, with all the digital stuff that we can do today with lighting, make this beautiful, and let's figure out how we do it. I've worked with some amazing DPs who found the way to do it. Jasmine's Blues, which is on Netflix, was the first movie I ever wrote 28 years ago now. It is the first time I ever fell in love with filmmaking. And I just filmed. Filmed it in 22.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. Okay. So you go on this impossible run. You have so many TV shows, you have so many movies. You open up the studio, you become friends with the queen bee. You then have shows. I had one question about. I've met the queen be a few times, and, boy, does she deliver.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, yeah, she's amazing.

[Monica Padman]

The queen bee is tricky because it does sound like you're talking about Beyonce.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm talking about Oprah, the original queen be.

[Tyler Perry]

How is she queen be? Oh, you talk about Oprah. Okay, got it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you thought I was talking C. You were right.

[Tyler Perry]

Beyonce.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

I count her as a friend, too.

[Dax Shepard]

But Oprah, I had one little question on that. So you end up the haves and the have nots. You do eight seasons on own, and it's huge for them. It's a great Success. Is it tricky at all to be friends with the owner of the network when you're making the stuff? Because those are kind of inherently often at odds, those two roles.

[Tyler Perry]

It was tricky, but we were determined to prove that we could work together and make it happen and the friendship wouldn't suffer.

[Dax Shepard]

You had to keep that as a priority.

[Tyler Perry]

Definitely had to keep as a priority. And there were times when it got tough.

[Dax Shepard]

It's gonna get tough. You guys have opposing interests all the time.

[Tyler Perry]

Even with Oprah. Yeah, it got tough.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Tyler Perry]

But what we realized and both understood is how important the friendship is to each of us.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, let's talk about the six aaa. How does this come your way?

[Tyler Perry]

I got a call from Nicole Avant, who was coming off the tragedy of her mother being murdered here in LA. 80 something year old woman is at home in the evening and some gang banger breaks into the house in Trousdale and shoots her.

[Dax Shepard]

In Trousdale. For people who don't know, it's like one of the fanciest neighborhood all of la.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. And her father, Clarence Avon, who was known as the Godfather, he and Quincy Jones were such mentors, great doc on him.

[Dax Shepard]

That his daughter made. Who you're talking about that?

[Tyler Perry]

Nicole? She said, tyler, I really feel like you should do this movie. The 6888. My mother and I feel like you should do it. Our mother passed like, I feel like my mother wants you to do this. And I thought, whoa, I've never heard this story. So she sends me this sizzle reel from Cary Selick and Peter Goober, executive producer on the show. And I saw the sizzle reel. About 855 black women in World World War II. I'm like, who knew?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

855.

[Tyler Perry]

Wait. 855 black women were in Europe in World War II as a part of the war effort. I thought, you're kidding me, right? She's like, no, this is real. And there are four or five surviving members. I said, where? So there were two that were really with it. There was one woman, her name is Lena King. She died this year. She was 99. I'm like, I'm getting on a plane. I'm going to see her right now. Because she's 99. I want to sit and talk to her before I start this script. And I walk into her house. I don't know what to expect. She's 99. I'm thinking, she's going to be in a wheelchair. Her memory gonna be like, this woman comes down the Stairs. Her lipstick done. Her hair, makeup.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Tyler Perry]

Mr. Perry, it's a pleasure to meet you. She was still driving. She was still going out dancing with her friends.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, man.

[Tyler Perry]

Her memory was as sharp as ever.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Tyler Perry]

So I sit down and I ask her, I said, so I know you were part of the six aaa. Tell me about it. What made you go and emotion? Eyes welled up with water. 70 something years. She goes back and she tells me about a young Jewish boy named Abram who was her very close friend.

[Dax Shepard]

The lead of your movie, which I watched last night, is the woman you interviewed. Y. Yeah. Oh, wow. Tell that story. It's so good.

[Tyler Perry]

She's telling me about this young man named Abram who died in war. He wanted to go and do something for the warf and fight Hitler. She was so emotional because he'd only been there a few weeks. And all of that emotion came back to her in that moment. I saw it in her eyes. I was like, this is the way in to the movie. This is the story. She's telling me what happened and how much she loved him.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. How do you anchor this huge story in this very intimate, personal one? And in the movie, she's from Philadelphia. She's kind of in love with this boy. He's in love with her. It's unrequited. He's about to leave and then he's dead.

[Tyler Perry]

I would say about 80 or 90% of what you see in the movie is factual. I had to take some liberties, of course, but a lot of it's factual. And things she was sharing with me. And her memory was sharp. Like you could look at her face and see that she could almost smell the moments and the memories that she was talking to me. Two weeks later, I had a script. I sent it to Nicole. I was like, listen here. And they're like, you're kidding me. We read it, tweaked it, worked on it, and started filming.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. And there's so much stuff that immediately burbles up without you having to really shine a light on it. Even her story. She's very smart, she's very capable, and she doesn't want to go clean and cook for men. But going to school, which would be a very natural next step for her.

[Tyler Perry]

Is expensive, off the table.

[Dax Shepard]

What options are there left? So that right there is kind of telling. Then there's this other great moment where all these women enlist and now they're taking a bus ride down to the south.

[Tyler Perry]

The train? Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, the train. They're going to go to boot camp. And two things are happening. One, some white dudes walk in and go, let's get the white people out here. We got to segregate this train. And you're like, oh, wow. Yeah, 1944. That's where we were at. But I think even crazier to think about was like, all these women from the north are coming down, and they're like, what the fuck is going on? You could time Travel still in 1944. You could teleport to a much crazier place.

[Tyler Perry]

But also, women of that day were very aware of racism, no matter where they were.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. Well, she was already experiencing in Philadelphia.

[Tyler Perry]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

But just that level could happen on a train ride is also really stark.

[Tyler Perry]

Time travel across the Mason Dixon, and you're the whole new world.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Okay. So then we meet Kerry Washington, and she is the leader of this group of women. She's phenomenal, as always. Your first time working with her.

[Tyler Perry]

Second.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, what do we think of her? I'm in love with her. I think she's so fantastic.

[Tyler Perry]

I think that you're spot on. You're in love with her on and off camera. She's amazing. We worked on for color girls in 2010, and this was our second time working together, because between that time, she had done so much. I wanted to find something worthy of her, this role. She's playing Charity Adams, who led these women, who was 26 years old at the time.

[Dax Shepard]

She's 26.

[Tyler Perry]

She was 26 years old, meaning 855 women. Carrie and I were rehearsing all of these women. The spirit of them were with us through the whole thing. When I was finding different sets, I would look at the pictures and look at the historic references. Like, this is the exact place. It was, like, so weird, but she and I were rehearsing in a dressing room, and there's a knock on the door, and it is the transportation guy. And he comes up, he says, I want to show you something. I got this trunk I want you to see. So we come out, and I have this on video. The transportation guy was on World War II buff, and he would go to these auctions and buy all these World War II materials. So he brings his trunk and he puts it at our feet. It is Charity Adams trunk.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, it's not.

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Tyler Perry]

With her uniform in it, her tulip tree, a letter in it. We both got chills.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Tyler Perry]

All these moments of these women letting us know that they were there and.

[Monica Padman]

They wanted to stay special, spiritual.

[Dax Shepard]

And the transpo dude Found it.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. But then you see what she's up against. It's all these half steps. We had Malcolm Gladwell on talking recently about what do you need for representation in something? And you find that, like, one woman on a board does nothing. She's a token, and no one's gonna listen to her. Two is like, she's got a friend.

[Monica Padman]

That'S not gonna do much, but nothing really happens.

[Dax Shepard]

And then it's three. There's this, like, magic number of three where now you get three women on a board of nine. And now they can be themselves and they can really enact some change. And I was just thinking about Carrie's roles. Like, she's the leader of this one black battalion, and she's the only one there. And when she's meeting with these generals and stuff, they're placating her. They're just getting. They gotta do this thing. And you realize, like, oh, my God. To be in that situation actually get anything done seems nearly impossible.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. And for them to do it and do it. Well. Another challenge was this story's about the mail. Like, how do you tell a story about the mail?

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you. If I'm you, I'm like, I don't know, man. Where's the big explosion with the mail?

[Tyler Perry]

Exactly right. And Carrie was the same way. It's like, how do you tell a story about the mail? But I think that we discount what the mail meant then, because there was no email, There were no text messages. Mail was life. And you had all these soldiers fighting, and they hadn't gotten mail in months because of the Battle of the Bulge and them moving around so much. So the morale was at an all time low. And you had hangers full of 17 million pieces of mail that needed to get to the soldiers to boost their morale and take them through the end of the war. Well.

[Dax Shepard]

And also, you do a good job at pointing out there's a mom. I'm sure this part might be artistic, but a woman waits at the gates of the White House basically, to talk to Eleanor Roosevelt, to say, like, I don't know if my son's dead or not. I haven't heard from my son in a year. Yes, morale. But I think more about all these people that were cut off, just assuming the worst for months and months and months at a time. And you can't call anyone to get an answer. Are they still alive? That must have been the most agonizing for those parents.

[Tyler Perry]

Of course. Can you imagine?

[Dax Shepard]

No. If I wave goodbye to my daughter and I Don't know for a year whether she lived or not.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. Awful.

[Dax Shepard]

So no one wants to deal with the situation. The army doesn't. They're like supplies. That's all we got to worry about. We can't be worrying about mail. And so they throw them a bone and they intentionally give them six months to sort all this out.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Thinking, well, that's impossible. They're going to fail.

[Tyler Perry]

It's impossible because of the vermin who had eaten through a lot of the package. You couldn't make out names from the rain and the weather.

[Dax Shepard]

The World War II of it all.

[Tyler Perry]

World War II of it all. Yeah. And this impossible sorting task where they had just thrown all this mail into these hangars. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Where do you start? With 17 million pieces of fucking mail.

[Tyler Perry]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

And these gals, God bless them, they got the job done in 90 days.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's kind of impossible.

[Tyler Perry]

Pretty amazing.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a great story.

[Tyler Perry]

Thank you. I'm excited about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's really, really good in it.

[Tyler Perry]

Let me have you rephrase. These gals, these women. Oh, yeah, yeah. These women got it done.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. So these women, they got it done in 90 days.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Help. Is gals offensive?

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. In the movie, he says, stepside gal, and the gas from black women in the theater was like, oof. So, yeah, gal is offensive. It's like, boy calling a black man a boy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good, good, good. Heads up. I didn't know gals.

[Monica Padman]

Everyone's learning.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of. I could sense you were shooting. Well, I know you have a White House.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I'm like, we're shooting at his White house. So to be at your studio, I was curious of the plays, the writing, the films, the TV show. Where does the studio rank in that as far as the amount of pride it gives you when you try to integrate the fact that you own a studio.

[Tyler Perry]

I tell you, the thing that warms my soul the most is understanding that it was once a Confederate army base where there were soldiers plotting and planning on how to keep 3.9 million Negroes enslaved. And now that land being owned by me, how great is this country that that could happen? So if that could happen for me, I don't care who you are, where you come from, America's an incredible place to just be and dream and. And live and grow. And as many problems as we have as a country, we are still a great nation that when we galvanize and come together, we can do anything.

[Dax Shepard]

I still want to be here more Than any other place.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, for sure. Nowhere else in the world.

[Dax Shepard]

But the fact that it's tangible, does that feel special?

[Tyler Perry]

It does. My father would build houses. It was a subcontractor. And he would get paid his $800 and he would be so happy. Oh, I got my money. But I'd watch the guy that he sold the house, usually a white man, sell the house for $80,000. And I always wondered, why won't you do that? But looking at it from this point of view, I. The burden of being the man who owns the house. Yeah, I don't have any partners, I don't have shareholders. So when that $100,000 light bill is due, I've got to pay it that 180/million dollars in payroll for all the actors and everybody. I've got to pay that every year. So I understand the blessing of it. I also understand the burden of it, and I also understand the exhaustion of it all. But I'm grateful for it.

[Dax Shepard]

I just feel like it's so tangible versus what we do, which is like I write, then I make it. It gets seen, then it's kind of gone, maybe gets seen again. To have something that tangible, I feel like it would force me to experience what's happened. I feel like this visceral, real, tangible 3D space might force me to go, no, no, for real. You built this shit. This wasn't here. Then you came along, now it's here.

[Monica Padman]

It's like reading a diary in some ways.

[Tyler Perry]

The journals. Yeah. And I get that. And every time I drive through the gates, I am reminded of how profound and wonderful this moment is. Especially because there's so many people who wanted to do it. I can't tell you the last person who developed a studio of this magnitude. You think about Disney and Warner Brothers. So to do it at this time and at this level has really, really been profound. But every time I drive in the gates, this is God's honest truth. When I'm tired, when I'm exhausted, when I'm just like, okay, how much longer can you carry this? I'm reminded of all the people who wanted to do it. For some reason, it fell on me to do. And also, watching people come through the gates who had never had a shot in this business makes me go, you can go a little further. Y Listen, at 55, yeah, I'm going to be 70 soon in two seconds. That's the way I look at it, right? 55 came so quickly. I'm just like, what does the next 15 years look like, while I'm still able to run up and down the stairs and enjoy my life, what does that look like? And how much of this beautiful gift of the studio is going to be a blessing to that or a hindrance to it?

[Dax Shepard]

Right. What about Black Panther being shot there?

[Tyler Perry]

That was pretty cool.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel like that's a real moment where you're like, oh, damn. This gamble also worked out one of.

[Tyler Perry]

The first things with Chadwick.

[Dax Shepard]

Really? And would you pop in at all? Are you the studio owner there?

[Tyler Perry]

No, no, I'm not that guy. I respect everybody's privacy and what they're doing. I'll wait. If I get invited by the direct, like, Ryan invited me on the last day to set, I thought that was really great.

[Dax Shepard]

Much different owner walking in.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, it's staggering. I guess my only thought is, how do you figure out how to enjoy it all? I think that's the last kind of hill to climb, isn't it? How do you really integrate it? How do you enjoy it? How do you accept it? How do you believe in it? How do you not fear?

[Tyler Perry]

I'm finally at a place where I've got the right team in place to run it, so I. I can step back a lot. And as soon as I got there and was like, okay, great, we're good. Here comes AI. It's like, you might want to rethink everything you're thinking here. So it's like, here's a whole nother challenge to deal with.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Oh, I have one last question about this. Could you ever mentally be at a place where you go, I did it. It really happened. Without feeling like you have to keep pursuing it.

[Tyler Perry]

I'm there now.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, well, congratulations.

[Tyler Perry]

Thank you.

[Monica Padman]

That is huge.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. I feel like I've done it. There's nothing else. If 6888 wouldn't have come. Jazz Band was, like, the pinnacle for me. 27 years to make it. I'm like, okay, now what? So I'm there.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good.

[Monica Padman]

Contentment.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you got a little boy, so that really takes care of a lot of it.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, well, I hope everyone checks out. The Six Triple Eight. It's in theaters on December 6th, and it's on Netflix December 20th. I think this is going to be enormous. Are you still surprised when you have hits?

[Tyler Perry]

I'm thankful. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah. I'm not as surprised as I am thankful every time.

[Monica Padman]

That's a good answer. I like that.

[Tyler Perry]

But when it's a shitty movie that hit.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you.

[Tyler Perry]

But six Triple eight Is amazing.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Tyler, this has been so fun. I don't think I ever thought we would meet. Of course, like everyone else in America is very aware of you. I watched the 60 Minutes profile. I was very charmed and thought you were wonderful.

[Tyler Perry]

And you're going to watch Maxine's baby.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm definitely going to watch Maxine's baby.

[Tyler Perry]

And your wife. I know it always goes back to your wife.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, as it should.

[Tyler Perry]

Your wife. I was doing People's Choice Awards and somebody was supposed to present the Humanitarian Award and she stepped up to do it the last minute and the teleprompter went out.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, sure.

[Tyler Perry]

And she was like, I don't need a teleprompter to talk about him. I'll just wink it. And it was really great.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, great.

[Tyler Perry]

I'll never forget. She was Grace under fire.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, wonderful meeting you. I hope everyone checks out the film and I hope we get to do it again or maybe just bump into each other. Not working. That would be fun, too.

[Tyler Perry]

Yeah, a lot of fun. A lot of fun. I love it.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, take care.

[Tyler Perry]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. Hi, Moni.

[Monica Padman]

Happy birthday.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, thank you.

[Monica Padman]

It's your birthday.

[Dax Shepard]

There is a birthday. It's a birthday miracle today.

[Monica Padman]

Oh. Because you've been very. You're. Okay, first of all, we're not together. You're in Mexico City.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm in Mexico City. And I just want to start by saying what a place everyone should come. It's incredible. This is a very, very special place. I've never been. So, yes, we were having the very best trip and I'll tell you some of the details. But then Lincoln, three or four days ago, she started throwing up and it was really rough and she got really kind of scary sick. I was like, do we need. You know, you're trying to figure out, like, when did you go to the hospital?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

What?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So that was really rough. And that was going on. She had been completely lifeless and zero energy for like 48 hours. And then New Year's Eve was fine. And then New Year's morning at around 9 in the morning, I was like, oh, I got something sneaky going on. But I didn't. I wasn't panicked. And then I. And I'm going to spare you the details. But then I went to the bathroom and then I had. I Mean, really, just the most violent throwing up I've ever had. And that went on, on for eight hours. And I was certain I gave myself a hernia. But the throwing up and the other stuff, I won't mention, duty stuff was truly nothing compared to the laying in bed shivering like crazy, all of my muscles cramped. I really, I mean, kicking opiates, motorcycle accident, None. This was the single worst I've ever felt. Oh, that's in my whole life. For eight hours I was like. And I had it in my head like, oh, my God, if I, if this is for 48 hours. Or Lincoln at that point was on 50. I was like, I. I don't think I could make it. Like, why isn't my body just stop letting me experience this? Because it's way too much.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it was. It was just torture. And then Kristin brought me a Zofran and a. And then I'll leave about eight hours into it, I took that. I was able to sleep. I slept for four hours. And then I woke up last night around, I don't know, 8pm and I was like, I was, okay. It kind of passed. And then Linky was starting to come out of it too. So everyone else did fun stuff and she and I just hung out, went to the hot tub to soak our achy bodies. That was fine. We did about 10 minutes. That was our big adventure. And then we laid in bed and watched Little Women, the Greta Gerwig one.

[Monica Padman]

That's a great movie. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. This trip for me has been a total revelation about Greta Gerwig. I. I knew Barbie, but I hadn't seen Ladybird.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, what a movie. It's such a good movie.

[Dax Shepard]

What a movie. Do you know, I didn't see it because I thought it was a period piece, like the COVID and the title. I for some reason thought it was a period piece, not a high school coming of age movie.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but then Little Woman is a period piece.

[Dax Shepard]

But now I just love Greta. I would watch, I don't know, name your words, I'd watch a horror film that she made at this point. So now I became obsessed with Greta Gerwig. And then last I was like, let's watch Little Women. Well, that's an incredible, perfect movie too.

[Monica Padman]

It is. She's so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Then I did research on her Monica. Like, I was going to interview her. I did like an hour of research on Greta Gerwig just for my own edification and fun. I had no idea she was like a hugely successful actor before she was our best Director. And I didn't know she was married to Noah Baumbach.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they've done stuff together.

[Dax Shepard]

You know all this stuff. I didn't know any of this.

[Monica Padman]

I know it all.

[Dax Shepard]

You are a know it all. So anyways, all to say, I woke up this morning and I actually feel really fantastic.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I'm so happy to hear it. I was very scared for all of you guys and we came up with a plan B in case. I figured there is no way.

[Dax Shepard]

There was no way yesterday at 7pm but then I heard you had an idea that I almost felt like I wanted to stay sick so you would have to do it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I thought, you know, we were on it. Rob and I were on a text and we were trying to figure out. I guess we'll just come on and say happy New Year and tell people you're sick and you'll be back. But then I thought, dead in Mexico. Yeah. So then I thought maybe I would do 50 facts about Dax. That's a lot for your birthday.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you intimidated? That's a lot to commit to. 50 facts.

[Monica Padman]

I can do it.

[Dax Shepard]

I can do it.

[Monica Padman]

I know I can do it. But I.

[Dax Shepard]

But.

[Monica Padman]

So maybe I'll save that for another day.

[Dax Shepard]

That was a very thoughtful idea.

[Monica Padman]

It's 50. How do you feel?

[Dax Shepard]

Yesterday I was like, oh, wow, I'm not gonna make it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. Yesterday I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna not make it. I thought for sure I was gonna outlive my dad for so long. I was like, oh no, we're gonna come in 13 years before.

[Monica Padman]

Oh no. Apart from health, how are you feeling.

[Dax Shepard]

About your second half of a century that I'm entering?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I think I'm mostly thinking about the thing that's tripping me out is like, okay, wow, I'm a half of a hundred years old. I just watched Little Women. That was only set 150 years ago, right. That seems like a million years ago.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

In fact, we were watching the movie and there's these beautiful mansions in the movie. And I said to Lincoln, you realize none of those mansions have toilets inside. Like, as fancy as this looks and as how much you'd want to live there. All these people in their fancy dresses are going across the yard to shit in a wooden box.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And they aren't brushing teeth.

[Dax Shepard]

Nothing is good. It looks pretty. But so then when I think, well, that's not terribly long ago. Two more of my lifes ago.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It starts to put time. Time in a weird. Or it's like all these things that feel so far away, they're not that far away. And then I. Then of course, I think, well, life's really short.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But mostly I'm happy and I feel good and I'm very excited to see you because I haven't seen you in a long time. So I think we should rewind all the way to your Christmas at home.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. I went home for Christmas to Duluth, Georgia. That's also a weird thing. This was sort of the first trip. I didn't refer to it as going home.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, what did you refer to it as?

[Monica Padman]

Like, I'm going to Georgia to visit my family.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I don't know about that.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, home is where the heart is. But also I think, like, I just. We've talked about this before, but every time I land here in la.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I. I'm home here.

[Dax Shepard]

You're an LA boy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I'm a cookie boy and an LA boy. And I visit my parents in Georgia.

[Dax Shepard]

Huh. That's interesting because I still. When I go home, when I go to Michigan, I think it's home.

[Monica Padman]

God. Yeah. Now I feel sacrilegious. Like it's not. It's still a huge part of me, but I guess I'm sort of coming up. Not coming up, I guess, because, let's see, this year. This year I will have been here 15 years.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

And.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. So not half your life yet.

[Monica Padman]

Not half my life, but I was in Georgia for 22 years. So I mean, I'm about, like in a. In seven years I'm going to have reached the same point.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes. I'm at 60% as of today.

[Monica Padman]

Your life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, because I moved it when I was 20. And so for 30 years I've been in California.

[Monica Padman]

Well, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I was in Michigan.

[Monica Padman]

So you, you have lived in California longer than you've lived in Michigan. Is, Isn't that weird?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, by like 50% longer. Yes.

[Monica Padman]

You love percentages today.

[Dax Shepard]

I love that I'm going to still do fast math when I'm 50. You went to your parents house? Not home.

[Monica Padman]

And it was, it was lovely. You know, it's. You're. I'm always trying to figure out the right amount of days.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Where I am enjoying myself. It's relaxing. I'm getting time in with the family, with friends. But I don't overstay into the point where I become cranky. And I did pretty, pretty good. I think it was like. I think it was like a day and a half of, of queen.

[Dax Shepard]

Y'all forget Toothpaste roi ir. So. Oh, wait, at the. The. The last day and a half or the first day and a half?

[Monica Padman]

No, first days are great. Like that's the thing. And then I. And I feel so good and everyone's so happy and in it. It feels like, oh, I could. I could like live here again probably in this house. And then five days is. I'm starting to turn. I'm starting to call it my parents house. Things. Things are changing. Yeah. Because. So I. My mom got me this necklace from my gift guide. It's a shark.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, well, that worked out absolutely perfectly because I bought you the same necklace and it got lost.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. And so you got me a different one.

[Dax Shepard]

When I reordered, I just. I changed my mind on the reorder. I mean, truly, that's a blessing from above because you would have two shark necklaces. What? You don't need that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I would. I would have to return one and then that would be a really crisis.

[Dax Shepard]

Of conscience whose you return.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you got to return mine and have Nurming deserves to.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but. But I send her l. So it's not like she came up. Although in some ways you just got it off the gate.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right. I mean, you also, in a subversive way told me what to get you as well.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's true. But anyway, I got the shark. I love it. And I was wearing it and my mom said. She was like, oh, it looks so nice. Why'd you pick. Why'd you pick a shark? And I said, oh, because I'm a shark. I'm a shark when it comes down to it. And I said in business. And she said with your parents fence too sometimes.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

And then I just looked at her like this.

[Dax Shepard]

Like a shark. Yeah, you should have bitter. You should have ran. You should have lunged at her and. And snapped her. You want to see a shark jaws at her? You want to see a shot? I'll show you a shark. You know what I think is really gross about sharks is that their upper teeth move too. You know that?

[Monica Padman]

No, what?

[Dax Shepard]

You know, like our teeth. Top teeth are fixed. They don't go anywhere. Just the bottom mandible moves up and down. The top teeth aren't coming up and down. They're just stationary.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Those fucking sharks. The top comes down too.

[Monica Padman]

It comes down or. Well, I guess both.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. It does the same thing as the bottom. Better to Nash you with. I don't like how it looks when they lunge at a seal or something. You see the top teeth descend. It just makes it that much more.

[Monica Padman]

Terrifying that that's a New Year's resolution for me.

[Dax Shepard]

It's one step away from the whole set of teeth just turning into a vortex and like, you know, eviscerating the prey.

[Monica Padman]

Ew. Eviscerating the prey. That's me. That's me in 2025. What are your. Do you have any resolutions?

[Dax Shepard]

I do. This year I tried to break it into different categories, like professional, physical, spiritual. There's another one. It's probably the most important one professionally. I really want to finish my memoir this year physically. And this has been a little bit influenced by watching sprint season two over. The break I need to do. It's been out for a while. Molly.

[Monica Padman]

Whoa.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's so good.

[Tyler Perry]

And.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I didn't know that either, but Molly had already seen it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. So sprinting, I really. I. Biking's my new thing, but I'm gonna try to this year do biking and sprinting. So that's a physical goal. And then spiritually is finding my way back. Professionally, I. This is spiritual, professional.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

To focus on what I love about work and not the outcome, I guess, like to really, really hunker back down into that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What are your resolutions?

[Monica Padman]

I also have sort of different buckets, but I also have very tangible ones. I think tangible ones are the ones that are best. Like, they're the highest level of succeeding. Like, Max's resolution is to learn how to do a split.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I think it's too late for Max. I once read if boys don't do that by the time they're 10, they can't physiologically, really.

[Monica Padman]

He was pret.

[Dax Shepard]

He should do a little research.

[Monica Padman]

We said that was a great resolution. And he was surprisingly kind, like sort of flexible.

[Dax Shepard]

Max is my arch nemesis. The notion that his thighs are that much bigger than mine and he can do the splits. I feel like he has too much muscle to do the splits.

[Monica Padman]

And he's a little taller than you.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

Not on your birthday. Today is not. Today's not.

[Dax Shepard]

Depends how you quantify it, I guess if you use inches. Yeah, sure. He's taller. Oh, I forgot to. Medically, I want to. I'm seeing allergies this year. I gotta stop blowing my nose all day.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I have a vanity one too.

[Monica Padman]

Uh huh. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to start getting facials.

[Monica Padman]

That's a great one. That also feels. It just feels really nice and luxurious.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. 150. And sometimes I look at my. My nose in the mirror. I'm like, it looks like a catcher's mitt. Like, I think I need to pull a couple layers off of the skin or something. It's starting to look really leathery.

[Monica Padman]

It's not, but you could do a peel. A light peel.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. A couple times a week, maybe get down to that.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Dax Shepard]

This is that youthful skin underneath.

[Monica Padman]

You just have bright red, like muscle. Your muscle shows.

[Dax Shepard]

I keep fluctuating. I keep going. Like half the time, probably even more than the half the time. About 80% of the time, I go like, yeah, let's get this face all leathery and fucked up. There's something charming about that in an older man. And then one day I look at my face, I go, baloney. I can get facials. I live in a city with a lot of good facials. I should make my skin look rosy and youthful.

[Monica Padman]

It's such. Such a good encapsulation of you in general. You're like, I'm this masculine Midwestern guy and I'm leathery. But really, you're not you.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm vain and I live in Hollywood and I'm an actress.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Who are we kidding?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Just own it. Yeah, I have a skin one, too. It's to restore the skin barrier on my legs. And that means to lotion every day.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. Skin barrier is what it is technically.

[Monica Padman]

Because the skin barrier on my leg. Legs are a bit rough.

[Dax Shepard]

Listen, this is working perfectly with my New Year's resolution because we haven't recorded in, like, eight days. And I'm having as much fun right now as I have on a roller coaster.

[Monica Padman]

Again. It's just like the first five days, it feels so fresh, freeing. It's like, oh, I don't have to think about that. And then start feeling itchy. And you need it. Yeah, you need it.

[Dax Shepard]

And I want to add about your skin. Delta and I. So on New Year's Eve here, before I got sick, which was great, the hotel nearly set itself on fire. It was launching all these fireworks from the roof. And we're on the top floor, so about 14 inches from our window is where the fireworks were being set off from. And I'm going to send you a video. It's the, like, I'm talking a lot fireworks, where our whole room filled up with smoke because we had the windows open watching them. So. And then they were playing music in the courtyard and everything. So we. There's no way we were going to go to bed before 2am so Delta and I were in bed together and it was about one and the music was really loud and we couldn't sleep. So we watched the Christmas special and numerous times during the Christmas special on the close ups of you. I thought, well, I don't know what more she would want out of skin. It looks absolutely flawless and beautiful and I'm just not sure what Monica's aiming for if not what she has in the Christmas episode.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's very nice. I mean it's been a journey. When I was looking, I looked through all my pictures from 2024 to do a post and I can like the beginning of the year was bad. Really bad. Really, really, really bad skin. Okay, I guess I'll shout this out. I have so people know about my witch, but I have an. I feel, I feel guilty, but I got to be honest. I have a new person and she's not a witch. She's a real woman.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. And no powers.

[Monica Padman]

She doesn't have powers. She has skill.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

The place is called Corrective Skin Care.

[Dax Shepard]

But is it all the way on the west side?

[Monica Padman]

Santa Monica?

[Dax Shepard]

See, this is where my. I go to the 80%. Let's just stay leathery because I know, I'm like, yeah, I want whatever you got going because it's certainly working.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but you don't have what I. You don't have adult acne. I hate that phrase.

[Dax Shepard]

I do too.

[Monica Padman]

I know. It's, it's almost an onomatopoeia.

[Dax Shepard]

There is something really. There's something about it. Yeah. Well, wait till you have Joe. I'm, I would now have geriatric acne is what they'd have to call.

[Monica Padman]

No. Oh, no, I'm going to have, I'm going to be dealing. I'm going to have that. But no. So you don't, you have different issues. I don't. I think she is really amazing. Corrective Skincare is very, very amazing at clearing AA and yeah. Then also, and then also making like she does light peels and stuff. Anyway, she, she, she has changed my face for sure and helped it so much. And I have a routine and I use a couple of her products and I also ice my face morning and night. That's a pro tip.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow, wow, wow.

[Monica Padman]

And I think that's helped a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, let me ask you this. Does she like the east side? Like, are there any favorite restaurants she has? Could we get her like five clients on the east side and then buy her lunch and she'd Come out.

[Monica Padman]

No, no, because you know why? She in Orange county. And now she only is there one day a week, even in Santa Monica. So it's getting. It's like, I should.

[Dax Shepard]

We put her up at Cara once a month.

[Monica Padman]

We'll pay for. I would love that. I would love that.

[Dax Shepard]

But we get like four or five east side clients. Put her up at Cara. Now we got something.

[Monica Padman]

We really got something. Although I, I, you know, a resolution I had once was to be more positive. And I think I've done that. And I look at going to Santa Monica as an adventure. It's like going on vacation, but like a bad. Like kind of a bad one. Like the one you're on. And, well.

[Dax Shepard]

People should know too. They're probably thinking, like, in la, how far could this be? And if you look at a map, it'll be very, very deceptive. I mean, it's. It's. Sincerely. It can be 90 minutes both directions.

[Monica Padman]

It is. It is 90. It. If you go the same distance to.

[Dax Shepard]

Go to Santa Barbara to get a facial.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Tyler Perry]

So.

[Monica Padman]

But I plan it. Well. Where I plan a dinner with our only friend who lives on the west side. Sometimes she can't do it, which is rude. Then on my own, I'll go to dinner if that's the case, or I'll go work somewhere. I will say that when I had my Tonka, that was. That was me. I don't want to give too much details, but I was in Santa Monica.

[Dax Shepard]

You were trying to get home from Santa Monica.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, that's. Yeah, that's enough.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. I also have a Tonka adjacent story, but because I already had this poisoning yesterday, I don't want to overwhelm the audience. I'll wait. But I, on the departure of this trip, had a real emotional and Tonka like experience. But I'm gonna. I cannot fill the first episode of the year with double whammy on that. Okay, so Easter egg.

[Monica Padman]

Ooh, exciting. Okay, so I have to restore the skin barrier on my legs that with lotion. I realize I do have a kind of tick. Like, I pick at my legs a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And so they're kind of really messed up. So I gotta restore that. And then I want to. I've journaled two days now.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you have?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. It wasn't even a resolution. I didn't write it down, but I found a notebook and I've done it for two days.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good. The journal's a great place. I don't. You don't really have any resolutions of quitting Anything. But I think the journal is the best place to put your numbers on the corner because you see them piling up like, I just hit 365 days without dip because last year's resolution was no more chewy tobacco. Yeah. Wow.

[Monica Padman]

And you did it. Congratulations.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And so on my journal, you know, I see 365 days without. And then you get a little encouragement to stick with it that day. So if you, I don't know, your icing or whatever thing you want to be consistent about, if you keep a little tally in your journal, you get to see that climb. And it's very encouraging.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I like that. I'm impressed that you, knowing you, that you aren't paranoid about your journals like I am. So I want to lock on it. It doesn't have one. It's like a nice journal, but I'm afraid somebody's gonna open it and start reading it. I live by myself.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So the risk is low, but I. I am like, I'm kind of consumed by that. I thought, should I rip the. Should I write it and then destroy it?

[Dax Shepard]

No. Well. Well, okay, let me hit you with like I write in it with an even much deeper knowledge that I'm going to die. And I don't presume my kids will ever have the interest of doing this, but if my kids choose, there is a daily account of my life for the last 20 years, should they ever want to read it. And it's all in there. And that's at one time scary and then at another time kind of comforting. The notion that they're going to struggle in life for sure. It's the ride. And they're going to be ashamed of themselves and they're going to make mistakes. And I have this if they're so inclined. I have 20 years of huge mistakes and still keep going and keep trying. And so I write in it knowing there's a possibility that my children will read.

[Monica Padman]

Do you censor yourself because of that or.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I don't. I know.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the more I've learned of my parents struggles, it did nothing but comfort me and make me less self loathing.

[Monica Padman]

And you know, you're really only comfortable with them doing it after you die though, right?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know. You've been around me. I tell them pretty much everything already.

[Monica Padman]

That's true. You don't have any deepest, darkest secrets that you don't want anyone to ever know? I do.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, now I want to know how I'm gonna break into your apartment.

[Monica Padman]

I'm okay. My new plan is the next morning I'm gonna rip the old page out and light it on fire.

[Dax Shepard]

No. Can't you get a safe at least? Don't do that. Well, because you might want to write a memoir one day and. And our memories are complete fabrications, as we know. So even right now, this memoir I'm currently writing really is only gonna take me to adulthood. Right. And then I'll have the gap between moving to LA and being an addict and then getting sober and starting to work. That'll probably be a second one. But I mean, this sounds so indulgent. But regardless, in my mind there's three. And what's exciting to me is that third one, there'll be no. I'll be able to read, like, anytime I tell an event of my life or the story, I can go read that day and. And actually know what happened. It'll that the third one will probably be the only one that's approaching accurate of reality.

[Monica Padman]

It'll be the most boring one, probably.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, yeah. All the other ones all have been the victim. And the last one, you'll realize I'm the perpetrator of all my misery.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. That's a twist. The twist in the series is kind of cool.

[Dax Shepard]

But don't burn it, man.

[Monica Padman]

Bur it. Because I think for me, the purpose of the journal is potentially different than yours. One is just to get back in the habit of writing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And two, it's to release, it's not to document. It's more emotion, it's more about feelings than what is happening. So I. I like. I think I'm kind of okay with burning it because it's. It's just like I'm giving that up to the universe. I'm releasing that. I don't want to reread it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. But. And by the way, I don't really ever go back and read my journal.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I have on a couple occasions. And one thing that's very useful about it, as I've already said on here many times, is when you can see a pattern you've been stuck in for a very long time and you see it in writing. There is something very powerful about seeing that and going like, well, it's up to me. I'm going to continue to like, this isn't a new feeling I have. This isn't a new reaction. This is the same fucking thing I do all the time. And it's in black and white. And I have a choice to continue it or to stop it. And that's where I think it's useful. What if you put it in some second location and you don't have your name on it? So if someone found it, they'd have no fucking clue who. Whose secrets they're reading.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's going to be obvious.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you do?

[Monica Padman]

What? I'm like, the one thing I really.

[Dax Shepard]

Agree with you on.

[Monica Padman]

Chair Expert.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I guess if every entry has to do with someone famous you interviewed that day, they'll go, well, it's either Rob's, Monica's or. Or Dax's.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. The one thing I do think is incredibly powerful, and I think this is what I use it for more than anything now, is there is in the documenting part. It's not like I'm documenting it for posterity or I think I've even never been writing in it, thinking I'd consult it for something. It's that I wake up and the day often feels insurmountable and I am pessimistic and I think I can barely get out of bed and nothing will happen. But the act of having to say everything that happened yesterday. I see. Oh, no. Yesterday you felt that way and look, all these things you did.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The more important thing that's happening now is like, I wake up with a rumination and I'm committed to putting down the rumination. And once I get it in writing, the absurdity of it generally cuts it in half or even more sometimes. The whole. That realization I had about Bradley's movie where it's like, I saw it, I hated it. I got to interview him that day. I don't know what I'm going to say. I'm now writing about that. In the writing of it, I realized, oh, I hate it. Because this. This movie's about me.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Or, you know, the part of me I hate the most. And then what clarity that gives me. And then I end up loving it.

[Tyler Perry]

So.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I probably. I'm just going to burn it, but I. I think it's good. I actually, I think it's more like making the best, which I don't do. But now I kind of see the value. It's. It's. You've. In the morning, you've accomplished something, you did something, you wrote some stuff down. And like, if that's a goal to write some stuff down every day, then you've already done something positive for yourself and you can like, whatever happens the rest of the day, one thing. You accomplished one thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Mani. Erase everything. I Just said, yes. I think that's the number one thing of all of it, which is. Is like, you just. What you've shown is you have a commitment to yourself, and, And. And. And you did it. And so you feel. Yeah, you feel good. It's like exercising. You're like, all right, I did things I didn't want to do to make myself better. And that implicitly feels great.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, definitely.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you want to know one of the sickest parts of myself?

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

I always make my bed. I would anyways. But I also. There is a part of me that, like, I make my side. Side of the bed because often Kristen's still in it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But even if she's not in it, I'll just make my side.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And this is really disgusting. Part of me. But part of me goes, well, there's the evidence. Like, I made my side of the bed. I'm. I'm. I'm committed to keeping this room clean. So there could also. Once you have live with someone, you might start making your side of the bed just to shame them.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no, I think that should be a rest. No, I think that should be a resolution for you, that you make her side of the bed, too, as a generous act.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I'm overselling that a little bit for comedic value, but it does happen.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I understand. I understand where it comes from.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, here's really what I don't. I'm not making it thinking I'll shame her, but occasionally I'll see my sides made and hers is messy. And I. And I do think. I hope she notices that I've made my side.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. The only. The only time I make my bed is if I am leaving for out of town. I make it. And that. I only started doing that because Cali once told me. We were in high school, we were young, and I think we were going somewhere, and she made her bed, and she was like, yeah, I like to. If I'm going on vacation, I have to clean my room and make my bed and everything in case I die.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's not where I thought we were going. I thought, she wants to return to a clean.

[Monica Padman]

I know that would have been the normal answer, but, yeah, in case she dies and then people like, you know, are coming in there. She. It's like, it's a clean.

[Dax Shepard]

I have the complete opposite. If I thought I was going to die on vacation, I would set my room on fire before I know. Like, I wouldn't give a.

[Monica Padman]

It's more for like, what will happen for the people? Like, they'll come in her room. It needs to be in order. Order for them.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So she's the type that would have killed herself at the Colonial Motor in to not make a mess for anyone.

[Monica Padman]

What's that?

[Dax Shepard]

So my grandma Midge would have found her.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no. Okay. No, that's really bad. Knock on wood. Okay, okay, Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I have one more thing. Christmas was great. We had a great Christmas.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Really, really fun. TT and Bear came over in the morning and that's Carly and Yi. And then we Left on the 26th to come here. And I committed us to a hot air balloon ride.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you had to wake up really early, like five in the morning on vacation to go. And I was a tough sell. And our drive there, and that was the day before Lincoln got sick. So Lincoln couldn't come and mom couldn't come. So it really was like on the fence. What are we going to do? We going to still do this thing? And it's so early. We went anyways. Delta was so afraid the whole ride there, watching them inflate the hot air balloon, getting into the basket was almost impossible. She almost. She just almost was like, fuck this, I'm not doing it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I coaxed her into the basket. There's pictures of me holding her before it takes off. And I had said in the car, Delta, I will. I would bet all of my money that at the end of this, you're really going to want to do it again. Like I feel that confident about it. I. I would probably bet everything. And she goes, well, you are going to lose everything. That's what she said. The balloon took off. Monica, I promise you, we weren't even 15ft in the air until goes, daddy, you're going to win that bat. This is my favorite thing I've ever done.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And it was among the greatest things I've ever done. This. This was so incredible. There were so many hot air balloons. Maybe I'll post a picture on this episode. There was probably 50 or 60 hot air balloons all up. And you hover above the pyramids.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And you just float around for like an hour going up and down. And there's all these beautiful hot air balloons. And it was Molly and Dahlia and Lily and Eric and Delti and I. And it was about as cool of an experience as we ever had. And then the dude set it down. We were going. We were touching the tops of the trees as we floated in. He put it on this little, like the Size of your yard, of your current new house, over power lines like a foot over it, brings it down and landed it on the fucking trailer of the truck where it gets transported in.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

It was impossible. This guy was such a top gun.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my goodness. That's so cool.

[Dax Shepard]

It was spectacular.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I love that. Well, I'm proud of her, but also I'm proud and shocked and impressed and shocked that you are comfortable in that environment. Letting someone drive you. Exactly. Letting someone steer you above Earth, really? And yeah, so that's good.

[Dax Shepard]

This guy was great. And you should know, all I did half. About half of the time I watched him operate it in preparation. If he passed out.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, so you were aware I started.

[Dax Shepard]

Clocking like, okay, wow. So when he gives it gas, he had like three different throttles to put heat into the balloon. But when he would put that in, there was about a 45 second delay before the actual elevation would change or not. So I was like, okay, wow. If I know if we're coming at a tree, I gotta predict 45 seconds from now, we need to go. So I was really, I was monitoring like a hawk, thinking I might. I might have to land. And Eric goes, after we landed, he goes, yeah, I don't think you could have done that. I think you could have flown us around, but I don't think you could have made that landing. And I'm like, I don't think so either, but I certainly would have given it a shot.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you would have. Wow. Okay, great. Well, that sounds wonderful. I'm glad you guys got to do that.

[Dax Shepard]

That was a big time, once in a lifetime, cool experience. Yeah, it was really special. And my littlest buddy, we just had so much fun in that basket together. I've been having the best time with Delta on this trip.

[Monica Padman]

My God, that's so sweet.

[Dax Shepard]

Just couldn't be more in love with her.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, she's pretty perfect. Okay, I have a couple facts.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Before you get into those facts, I just want to say about Tyler Perry. I thought about him so much after this interview. Really, I got to say, tied with anyone else we've ever interviewed. I just, all. All week I kept thinking about him and he might be one of the most unique people I've ever met in my life. He had such a softness and kindness and also this firmness with his boundaries and beliefs. It was like this really unique combo of just beautifulness and also self assuredness and not going to be led anywhere he doesn't want to go. Something about him I felt was just so Magical.

[Monica Padman]

I do, too. I mean, he's just like the walking representation of glass half full. Like, he turned. He really turned his. Some very traumatic events into something he could, you know, be proud of. And it's.

[Dax Shepard]

And his bravery talking about those topics fully exceeded mine. And I. I just thought that was really. Yeah. A real privilege to. Yeah, I love, too, that he was like, wait, you told me this was gonna be fun to his publicist.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I said, well, it could be fun. We can do a fun version. He's like, no, no, no. Actually, let's do. Let's go.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Dax Shepard]

That was so rad.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, me too. Me too. Yeah, he's really special. When I was home, I drove past his studios. Well, the exit. You did studios? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, my God. I did it. I said home. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you're back.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Turns out it's just where I'm not.

[Dax Shepard]

You can have a couple homes.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. That's nice. All right. Okay. Now, he mentioned the arousal template. He said that's set from around three to seven. Ages three to seven. Yeah. So there's a belief that each of us has a sexual arousal template, a map in the brain of what we find sexually appealing. Although researchers do not fully understand how or why the various things to which we're attracted appear in our arousal template, it is clear that by the time we are four to six, our arousal template is largely in place, even though we are not yet sexual. It is also clear that as we age, elements can be added to our sexual arousal template, but not eliminated.

[Dax Shepard]

Ah, you can just throw in more kinks, I guess.

[Monica Padman]

I guess so. Yeah. But it makes sense. It's like why one person. Person is interested in one thing and others are not.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I had a little realization on this. Or not a realization. I launched a new theory on this trip. I was listening to Nate Silver's most recent book, and he was in a very respectful and. And smart way. He was poking holes in effective altruism. Oh, our good boy McCaskill, who we.

[Monica Padman]

Had on we like him.

[Dax Shepard]

And utilitarianism. He had a couple of really good pushback. Pushbacks for all of it. And they're very solid. As I also believe that Peter Singer and MacAskill's points of view are very, very solid. And my conclusion was, you know, everything's already been fleshed out. These theories and philosophies in life, they've been explored since Greece and probably before. They're all here for us. And I think we are just biologically unique and I guess our childhoods and our zip COD code and our socioeconomic. And there's just an offering for us that'll feel most correct. I don't think any of them are necessarily superior. I just think there's a lot of really good, fleshed out ones and you'll just be pulled to one. And the notion that yours is the one or someone else's is the one isn't really it. There's just these offerings and you have some predisposition and some bias, and certain ones will just appeal to you more than others. And I think you're just born that way that you'll be drawn to these certain ones. Does that make sense?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it does. I don't know if you're biologically, like, drawn so much as what you're exposed to kind of becomes your default. We're all trying to be as safe and happy as we can be. So whatever is giving us individually that feeling we're going to chase and. Yeah, that's not the same. Same thing for everyone.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I think most of my life I've thought, well, one argument will have the most merit, like somehow if you can quantify it. And even that was a part of utilitarianism. He said, you know, the reason utilitarian is very tempting as a philosophy is it is our innate desire to quantify things. So if we can say, oh, four people died versus 12 people, that's very simple. It's 12 versus four. Well, were those 12 Nazi party members and the other four were Mother Teresa and her pals? No, actually, that's not necessarily true. But the appeal of quantifying and being able to compare two numbers is very attractive to a lot of us. And biologically, we have such different dopamine levels. Naturally, there's such a variety of how much dopamine you have or depression you have, and I think we're all inclined. It's also kind of what Pain was saying. Saying Keith Payne about. Isn't it interesting that although you've thought through the arguments and you're sure the conclusion is correct, isn't it weird I could have predicted what conclusion you would have come to before you were born based on your ethnicity and your zip code. Like that kind of. That theory still, I think is. What I'm getting at is like, yeah, there's just a lot of really good, well thought out theories and philosophies, and those ones will just appeal to us for whatever reason and others won't.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I agree.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Cities where black people are thriving. Because we were talking about Atlanta. My home.

[Dax Shepard]

My number one home. My only home.

[Monica Padman]

According to the Atlanta Journal constitution, the top 10 are Washington, D.C. austin, Texas.

[Dax Shepard]

Is this in order, or this is just.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, this is in order. This is ranked number one. Is D.C. more than Atlanta? Should I go? Should I go 10 to one?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, too late now.

[Monica Padman]

Damn it.

[Dax Shepard]

Those are above Atlanta.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Atlanta's number five.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, hit me.

[Monica Padman]

So, D.C. d.C. Austin. Number two. Number three, Provo, Utah.

[Dax Shepard]

Shocker.

[Monica Padman]

Number three is Poughkeepsie, New York.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's got to be four, right?

[Monica Padman]

No, sorry. Three. And they're tied. They're tied.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Grove, Provo, and Poughkeepsie are tied for three and four. Atlanta is five.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Six is Oxnard, California.

[Dax Shepard]

That's where our boy Anderson Pax from.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no way.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, cool. Seven is San Antonio, Texas. Eight is Raleigh, North Carolina. Nine is Baltimore, Maryland. And Ten Island, Ogden, Utah. Utah has two.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I'm good. Okay. I got to imagine if. If you Google least amount of black people in any state, Utah's got to be number one, right?

[Monica Padman]

No. Well, Rob.

[Dax Shepard]

So have they interviewed the 12 people that live in Provo, and they're thriving like crazy?

[Monica Padman]

I don't know. But this. No, this is.

[Dax Shepard]

Is there a threshold, like, minimum amount of black folks that to count?

[Monica Padman]

Well, hold on. This is broken down into median household income, income among black residents, percentage of black households that make $100,000 or more a year, percent of black residents with a bachelor with a bachelor's degree or higher, homeownership rate among black residents, unemployment rate among black residents. So that's the factor. Yeah, it doesn't give population.

[Dax Shepard]

Those are good metrics, right? In 2020, there were 40,000 in Utah. Oh, come on, guys. There's that, but there's not many.

[Monica Padman]

That's not the lowest, though. What's the lowest?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, well, hold on. Hold on. I. I want to read.

[Monica Padman]

Why is it yours?

[Dax Shepard]

Wyoming.

[Monica Padman]

So shaky.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, sorry. I was kicking the table. I'm gonna go back maybe North Dakota and.

[Monica Padman]

And Montana, Minnesota, probably.

[Dax Shepard]

You got two that are lower. So the lower lowest is Wyoming.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And then Montana, Vermont, Idaho, South Dakota, New Hampshire, Alaska, Hawaii, Maine, North Dakota, Utah. It's 11. Okay, so I'm kind of wrong on that, but 40,000 in the whole state, that's not.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's not a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Wyoming is 5200.

[Tyler Perry]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it. Also, this. This Atlanta Journal Constitution is really a newspaper because there's a. Also this really cool map. I'm I'm impressed and I'm proud of my home. Okay. Now, what's the Chitlin circuit rebrand name? You were like, it's rebranded to something. And you're right. Urban theater circuit.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

He didn't like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Good for him. He's a. I'm not allowed to have that opinion, but I agree with him.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, well, sure, we'll agree with what he. We'll do whatever he wants.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, can I bring up a scary one? Because I actually had to discuss this with Delta on this trip.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I accidentally. She was sitting on this swinging net chair in a park, and she and Dalia were both trying to get on it at the same time. And it was clear to me that the only way they are going to be able to do that is if they both sat crisscross applesauce. And I accidentally said, indian style. And then Delta said, what's Indian style? And I go, oh, you know what? I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that. That's what we used to call crisscross applesauce. And then she said, oh, okay. Why is it bad? And I said, you know, Delta, this is one of the few that I'm not quite sure, because obviously people saw Indians meditating sitting that way, and they called sitting that way Indian style. And it's not derogatory in any way. If you invent a way of sitting, I get. I think, why is that negative? So I just want your two cents on that, because that.

[Monica Padman]

We've talked about this. I'm not sure why that's with Bobby Lee. So go back in the archives and you, Dax, you go back in the archives and listen to that episode, even.

[Dax Shepard]

If it's just for a minute.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Because I. Well, actually, I think I actually cut a lot of the crisscross applesauce talk out, which I'll probably have to do again right now. No, I won't. I get. I understand the conundrum because it's. I agree with you. There's nothing inherently negative about sitting that way.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And you're not saying it to, like, marginalize anyone or even. Yeah, I'm just like, there's a lot of things different cultures have invented, or at least that's the first time people writing about history saw it. Obviously, people probably sat that way from the beginning.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like French. Let's say this. Let's say that the French were marginalized in the country and you could no longer say French kisses. Well, it's like. Well, there's nothing really bad about French kissing. Just means you use your tongue. And apparently English people, that was the first time they saw that. I don't know. But like, yeah, French kissing. That's a fine thing to say. They can own kissing for the rest of time.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I guess it's just a way to make a group that already feels different even feel more different.

[Dax Shepard]

You would be proud of me because I said my point and she said, yeah, that doesn't make much sense. And I said, but, but you know what Monica would say is that would be fine if half the country were Indian, but because there were so few Indians and they're already marginalized, it's just another way to make them feel different. So I think that's what Monica would say, and that's a good point.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, look at that.

[Dax Shepard]

That all happened. You can ask her to confirm that. The Internet says it's usually because of lack of cultural knowledge that the phrases are offensive.

[Monica Padman]

But that one specifically or just in.

[Dax Shepard]

General, that's under this one.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Oh, well, also because I, I actually do think if you were really meditating correctly, I'm not sure if that's how you sit. I think you're supposed to sit like, not crossed like that necessarily. Like your legs are doing something.

[Dax Shepard]

Crossed, but not applesauce.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they're, they're cross, but they're not crisp.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess I just am, I'm, I'm gently asking if that might be an over cross correction. Just that one.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. I mean, I think there are over corrections all over the place for me. It's just. Why would you do anything that might make someone feel a little bit awkward or like they are standing out in a way they don't really want to.

[Dax Shepard]

When there's another option that's really relevant? But yeah, if America, American Indians feel bad when they hear that, then yeah, of course, forget it.

[Monica Padman]

And they might also not like, I, I don't. Well, look, I don't now, but I bet, I bet when I was like seven and we were in class and the teacher said, everyone sit down Indian style, I'm sure I wasn't like, oh, that's really rude. And doesn't. They don't understand that.

[Dax Shepard]

What if they all just looked at you to see how you were sitting and they thought you were. Everyone's supposed to copy how you were sitting.

[Monica Padman]

That's the actual thing underneath feeling. Yeah, that's the feeling is, oh, they're talking about my thing that I, I somehow have to own. But I don't even know what this is either.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So, yeah, now House of Pain episodes. So there was 254, but then they revamped it in 2020, and now there's 362 episodes, which is just wild.

[Dax Shepard]

That's about twice as many as Ch. Cheers.

[Monica Padman]

Absolutely wild. And that's it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's everything. Well, I'm telling you, this has made me so excited to come home and resume working on my favorite job I've ever had.

[Monica Padman]

I know. We're so lucky. And we're so appreciative to all the armchairs who've stuck with us and are going to continue to stick with us this year. We hope we're going to bring a lot of fun to the table this year. We didn't tell people, which I, you know, I regret, but we did a bingo. We have another day of bingo. It's tomorrow, but by this time it'll pass. But we did a fun game on Instagram that was a scavenger hunt. Bingo. And we're going to do more fun things like that this year and more like community building.

[Dax Shepard]

How did it. How does it work? The bingo scavenger hunt?

[Monica Padman]

You have to find the time stamp of. Of three. Like a bingo card, basically. Like, hold on, I'll pull one up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, there's a three by three bingo.

[Monica Padman]

Card and you've got to make a row, but it's like, for exper. Which guest did Dax appoint himself as part of? The guest personal security team. So you, like, have the answer and the timestamp.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, so you would go back to Bill Gates and figure out when that was said.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I like it. That's a fun game.

[Monica Padman]

So fun.

[Dax Shepard]

We have a new member of our team that put this together, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. She designed it. Her name is Sophia. She is interning for us and she was recognized.

[Dax Shepard]

She's a prodigy.

[Monica Padman]

She is. She was recommended to us by Adam Grant, and she's at Wharton, and we don't really deserve her, but we're going to take her.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right. We both read the letter she sent us, and we were intimidated by her intelligence and her overqualification, and we thought, well, there's no way she should be an intern for us. We should be an intern for her. But here we are.

[Monica Padman]

Here we are. And I've put her on some fun tasks, and I think we're going to have a lot of fun this year.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So one welcome to her. All right, well, I love you and I'll see you in 36 hours.

[Monica Padman]

Yay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yay.

[Monica Padman]

Bye.

[Dax Shepard]

Bye. Follow armchair expert on the Wondry app. Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondry. Com Survey.