A (4:23)

So I love the way you built it because in truth, that's how I recommend most people who, like, sometimes you fall into it kind of like you did. And sometimes people intentionally make the choice, like, I want to pursue this in earnest. And the goal is most people would like to become full time creatives. But there is a time that if you can do it as a side hustle on the part time while maintaining something else and kind of have this gradual shift, it's a lot less pressure, in my opinion. And so I always loved like seeing people who did that in real life. And it just kind of worked that way for you before you made the shift to let go of the clients completely and to pursue this full time. What was like the biggest struggle you were in? Was it your time use?

B (5:08)

I think because at that time I was having children as well. It was definitely the time. So I was doing it in between looking after the kids full time. So it was a real challenge and also trying to earn money, I guess, doing Things part time. I'd sort of have to hang on to those clients that were paying me well while I, you know, sat and did all my drawing. And there was a number of years I didn't earn a lot of money from this, but I was persistent and just knew that if I kept going that, you know, good things would happen. And they did. So I just had to be dedicated, I guess, and persistent.

A (5:47)

I like dedicated and persistent. I always think that people who just don't give up and are willing to just keep trucking and evolve are the ones who have those decade long careers. And we know the longer you are in this industry, the more likely you are to increase your earnings. Right. At least that's what the most recent surface design industry survey indicated. So stick with it if you're currently in the beginning and keep just baby steps forward.

B (6:16)

Absolutely.

A (6:17)

So you do quite a few things. So you had this career, like you said, surface pattern design, have an agent, and then at some point you decided to explore something I'm very excited to learn about, which is children's books. So, Mel, I thought I was born to be a children's book illustrator and it turns out I was not. The path for me wasn't clear. Life is long. Who knows what'll happen? But I would love to hear how you decided to have that like side pivot and hear just a little bit about what and why.

B (6:47)

Yeah, it was also accidental because it wasn't sort of on my radar. But at the time I was with an agent. I don't have an agent now, but I was with an agent. And they reached out to me because the publisher had found some fabric that I designed on Spoonflower that had a cat in it. And they were interested in me illustrating a book. And I was like, well, I've never illustrated a book before. Like, how do I do this? I had taken some online courses and so I had their idea and I had been building up a portfolio because I did sort of think maybe one day, but really didn't think I could. And I was lucky that the publisher had an amazing book designer that worked with me and helped me through the process. And we ended up creating this beautiful little book that went on to win a Rubery award for the children's category. And I wouldn't say the illustrations are fantastic, but it was such a beautiful book that it just, yeah, resonated with a lot of people. And I caught the bug from there. I just wanted to do more. So over the years I just, I think I've done about 1617 books now. Yeah.

A (7:55)

Congratulations first of all on the award. That must have been a huge boost of confidence for your first book out into the world, right?

B (8:04)

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I think it was more the, the writing than my illustrations. But yeah, definitely a boost in confidence and gave me the confidence to move forward and do more. And I love creating books. They take, you know, three to six months to do each one, but it's something I can kind of slot in between all my illustration work and my, my community work. So it works out well. And I just do like one or two a year.

A (8:29)

I love that. So imagine that I'm a newbie and I don't know what the award means at all because I don't know anything about children's book. How does someone get an award for a book? Is there like an organization or what is the context for that? I'd just love to learn a little more.

B (8:44)

A lot of the books are quite often submitted to people who run competitions by the publishers submit them. So I didn't submit it. I think actually the author may have submitted it for this one. And this particular award is for independent publishers so they have to be through just independent smaller publishers. And I don't really know what she had to write in the application or anything like that. But yeah, she submitted it and we, we won. So that is fantastic. But yeah, I know there's a lot of, lot of industry companies out there that will run competitions for authors and illustrators to try and, you know, promote their stuff and award them.

A (9:23)

I think that's really wonderful because it's not like there's so many people creating books out there and if you've created something extra special and I know there's a lot of special books and illustrations and illustrators out there, but it is nice to be recognized in the stationary world. We have like the Louis Awards where you can get your greeting cards nominated and there's like a ceremony which is really lovely and Stationary Trends magazine has awards too. So I'm just excited to learn more about that. You said you do about two children's books a year. Now we don't have to talk real numbers, but the more you share, the more helpful it is for everybody. Do you think that it's possible to make a full time career as a children's book illustrator? And if so, how many books would you think have to be done in a year?

B (10:07)

Oh, good question. Definitely more than two. If I wasn't doing a surface pattern design, then I would probably try to get at least six out a year. Maybe, but it also depends on who you're publishing with because some of the smaller independent publishers won't pay you as much as some of the bigger ones. And I've, I've worked with both. Some of the bigger ones have, you know, massive amounts of money that they pay you. But then it also depends on the royalties. So same with the surface pattern design licensing kind of thing. The royalties just sort of start sort of compounding over the years, I guess. And so the more you do, the more royalties you get. So yeah, the more you put out, the more you get, I guess so.

A (10:54)

I got to write a book last year and it's not a children's book, it's my book called the Artist side Hustle for Hay House Publishing. And I had to write that like 300 page book and very short amount of time. But I've done the math and to earn back my. I don't have to, I don't have to pay back anything what they paid me as my advance, it's mine to keep. I imagine it's like that for children's books too. But for me to start earning royalties, I have to sell 60,000 copies. And then after I sell 60,000 copies, then I start getting to have the fruit of my labor as extra income, which will be lovely when it happens. Someday I'm going to act like it is going to happen. That's a lot of books, friends. So I think that that's also something to think about. Your royalty can really impact how many copies you have to sell. If you have an advance, your advance may be a decent size, but then if it's like. And you only get a fraction of a percent for each one sold and so you have to sell a million copies. That's not my case. I get more than a fraction of a percent, but I imagine it's pretty similar. Yeah. How many copies for your first book had to be sold if you know before you started earning those royalties, it was more.

B (12:02)

You had to hit your, your upfront payment first and then once you hit that, it wasn't the amount of copies. It's about getting to that upfront. Yeah. And then you start earning the royalties. But I don't know about other parts of the world, but in Australia and New Zealand you have public lending as well. So the books that go into the libraries, you get royalties for that. And that has nothing to do with that upfront fee. You just start getting them as soon as they're in the libraries. You also have the copyright agency. So if your books are turned into audiobooks. You also get royalties from that. So there's more than one way to get the royalties. I know a lot of people who do children's books who are specifically education books, and they are all through the libraries and that's where they get most of their money from. And I know some people who live off those because they've got so many books in that sort of genre.

A (12:58)

Fantastic to have that opportunity. I mean, one of my favorite things is to learn about new things that have existed, but maybe people didn't know about that. Support us creatives in ways you might not think. So thank goodness for libraries and for book lending. That's wonderful.

B (13:15)

Yeah, Go to the library, take books out, because we get.

A (13:19)

Do it for Mel and all the other children's book illustrators and authors. Okay, thank you for just kind of dovetailing over to that subject. I just haven't talked to a lot of children's book illustrators, so I'm like, ooh, Mel, tell me more. Last question about that. And then we might pop over to talking about community building and something that you're very passionate about. If you were to start in children's book illustration today, is there anything you would do differently than you did whenever you kind of fell into it the first time?

B (13:47)

Oh, I would probably do a lot more learning and building up a portfolio in that area. So I would have spent a lot more time creating stuff, personal stuff for myself, but based on children's books and illustrations. So just really illustrating a lot more. I don't think when I did that first book, I had enough skills. I still think I'm still learning, so, you know, I'm not kind of where I want to be. Even though I've done about 16 or so books, I still think there's a long way for me to go in that area. So I just keep learning and trying to get better.

A (14:18)

Mel, you seem like an incredibly humble, down to earth person. Just hearing you talk. So I just want to call that out because it's lovely to talk to that you're. You've done so much and you still say there's more for you to learn and you'd like to continue to get better. Just thank you for sharing that. I love that. That mindset. So something else that you've done beautifully is not just where you live in New Zealand, and I know you lived in Australia building community there, but you have really gone online to build a beautiful, supportive community for surface pattern designers specifically. Can you tell me a little bit about how that happened Was it intentional or another thing that kind of you fell into and loved?

B (15:01)

Yeah, that definitely is another thing I fell into. I never had any sort of desire to teach online or build up any sort of online community other than, I guess on social media. I was kind of always in there at the beginning, but I guess my teaching was what started me on the whole process of building a private online community. So I created a course I teach on Skillshare and that was accidental. They reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to teach and I was like, oh, I don't know if I can do that. But then I did it. I remember back when I was a software engineer and I was working in some big corporate offices and they asked me to teach some of the directors of this company some software. And I was super nervous. I went in there and I taught them and discovered that I can actually teach. And I had the most amazing feedback from all these amazing directors that were like saying that, oh, you should teach, you should, you know, teach people how to do things. You've got a talent for it. So I kind of like drew on that and went, yep, I can do this. And did my first class on skillshare probably eight years ago and it kind of blew up. It got, it did really well and I got a lot of good feedback and I thought, oh, and I loved it so much. I loved being able to help others, contribute to others and build other people's confidence in what they're doing. So I just kept going and eventually created a private online community that is sort of attached to my course, but doesn't have to be. And in there we've got hundreds of surface pattern designers and we do challenges every month. I do live Q and A, so I talk to them, answer questions about anything they want. It's a lovely little community of like minded people. So. And I just, it makes me feel good to help people and I think that's what creates, if you look at even like businesses, successful business people who run their own business generally, they are always giving back to other people and that's what makes them successful. And I think I just get off on it. I feel really good about helping other people. So that's why I do it and that's why I think it's been so successful. To be honest.

A (17:15)

You know, I've always loved when people reminded me that what you put out, you attract. And so I'm of the firm belief that if you have a vibrant, loving, dedicated, loyal group of people in your community who stick with you, Years and years and years in. It's because you attract those type of people. You make people feel good, you make people feel heard and seen. And I also think you have to be willing to keep evolving in order to lead a community. Since you started your online community, how have you changed? Not just like the things that you do in the community, but how has it changed you as maybe a leader in your industry?

B (18:00)

Oh, good question. I think I am more compassionate about people and their backgrounds and their stories, and it's really opened up my world. I have such a diverse array people in my community from every part of the world from all sorts of different backgrounds. I have a 85 year old in there and I have probably a 18 year old as well. Like I have a whole range of ages. And it's just fascinating learning about other people and where they come from and what they do and what motivates them and what they're passionate about. I don't know, I just love learning about that.

A (18:39)

So it seems to me that you've always been a curious person and, I don't know, you keep falling into things. So I imagine there's a way that you live your life that allows room for possibility of things to happen. Like when something comes to you as a possibility, are you like arms wide open? Yeah, perhaps. Or is it kind of like a gut. Yes. No, this is for me and this is not for me. I just love to know.

B (19:03)

Yeah, I'm always wanting to give something a go. I have adhd, so I jump around a lot and sometimes I just have to let things go because I'm trying to do too many things at once. Generally have too many tabs open on my computer. It's like my, my mind always has too many tabs.

A (19:18)

That's what I tell my team. I'm like, I have a tab open. I need to close, guys.

B (19:22)

Yes, absolutely. But when I discover something new and I will jump on it and I will put everything into it and get obsessed by it. So, yeah, I'm definitely not a no person. I'm a, let's give it a go. If it doesn't work, then that's fine because I just am so interested in everything and I don't want to miss out.

A (19:41)

So, like, we have this one life that we're living and you want to live it to your fullest, but not just to fill it. You want to fill it with things that are near what you're already, you know, passionate about. So whenever, like little side roads emerge, you know, I also like to take them and see what's ahead. I also have had to stop things that I've started because it wasn't necessarily the right path. But I. I very rarely regret things that I have tried because I think that I always either meet someone and build a new relationship or enforced to do that horrible thing where you have, like, a weakness that you've been avoiding, and it forces you to deal with it and get in, like, you know, those kind of things. It's like sometimes they come to you because you need to learn something. And that brings me to a question. What do you think has been one of the hardest lessons or perhaps one of the biggest, like, oopsies you've made in your career? It could be in anything that we've talked about. Doesn't have to be community. It could be children's books, could be ballet. Also, she danced. I forgot to mention that she had a professional career as a ballerina. Right?

B (20:43)

Yes. Yep.

A (20:44)

You're so elegant. My gosh. What is the lesson that you feel like if you could stop right now? It, like, brings you right back. Like, oh, I remember this. And here's what I learned from it.

B (20:54)

Oh, I think it would have to be the business side of this industry or any. If you're working for yourself. Like, when I started working for myself, I was not very good at taxes or just running a business. I had no clue, and I did it without learning. I just kind of dived right in. And of course, I made a gazillion mistakes, ended up with a huge tax bill the first year, that kind of stuff. So I highly recommend learning about the business side of things. And I do this in my course as well. It's just as important as the creative side, so you don't make all the stupid mistakes I did at the beginning and have massive tax bills or anything like that. Now I get tax back because I. I do everything so well, because I have learned my lesson.

A (21:41)

You know, you don't know what you don't know. And I think that for someone who tends to jump into things, you learn as you go, which is exactly what you did. I've also seen the opposite, where people are so afraid of what they don't know, they don't start. So there's some medium in there, something in between that I think everyone needs to find. Like, if you're more cautious, what would it look like to be a little less, you know, restrictive in your next move? And if you're someone who, like me, my therapist is like, stacy, what would it feel like to not React and do things so quickly. And I'm like, when I get excited, I just go for it. So I don't know. I think it's always challenging for people if they're entering something new to find, like, the way forward. They're looking for the definite yes, this is it, or the definite stop sign. Don't go. Have you ever actually experienced something that is that definitively yes or no in your life?

B (22:34)

Oh, I once hired a consultant, and I knew straight away, within the first couple of sort of meetings that this was a definite stop, that it wasn't working. And generally I probably would have just kept going, thinking, oh, this will just come together. But I am so glad I just went, no, stop. This is not going to work. And I've had other consultants that I've worked with since then and have learned my lesson there, but that was definitely one thing. I just got a really bad feeling that they were taking a whole lot of money from me and it was for the wrong purpose. So, yeah, that's the one time I've just gone, no, no, definitely not.

A (23:16)

I've had to do similar things, especially earlier in my career. I hired a PR agency, and it wasn't because they were bad. They're actually really good at what they did. But I think the problem was they took me on when they shouldn't have. I wasn't ready, and it was so much of my money to try to work with them. And I had a contract and I couldn't break the contract. And so in the end, I just paid for something that wasn't good for me. And it was like a financial lesson, but also a lesson now that maybe I have programs and things, like, I'd rather someone tell me, no, this is not a good fit for you, than to keep going. You know what I mean? Because it's. It's hard when you don't know what you don't know. Now I feel like I have a better sense of what's like a good fit for me and what's not. But I think you might have to learn it, go through it and learn it.

B (24:05)

Yeah, you've got to have all those mistakes along the way, definitely. But, yeah, learn to recognize when you have to say no.

A (24:11)

I think you talked about your own community that you have, and you said that it's associated with one of the programs you run, but also not so if you're someone who is interested in learning more about your community, because the word community can mean so much. And you've said that surface pattern designers, you Do Q and A's. And you also have challenges, but you also learn a lot about people. The relationships are there. People who are like long time members who are just like creative besties who just like maybe don't even live near each other, but are each other's people. I'd love to hear that.

B (24:43)

Absolutely. There's quite a few and there's some that have been there right from the beginning. And I know that they are all sort of besties in their online sort of world. Some of them also with me, we've created relationships. In fact, one of them is now sort of my support person in there. But yeah, definitely I can see like little communities kind of branching out of it, which I think is fantastic.

A (25:07)

And that's the whole point because when we talk about online community, especially whenever Covid hit and people were even more disconnected than they were before, online spaces where you could just be yourself and talk about your area of interest, where it was, it was, it was like a very new concept to me at least and to so many other people. So of all the things that have remained, I'm so glad that like my online relationships, whether they're through community or social media, there's those special ones that like keep me going. Tell me about like your community. So there's the one you run, but what about the Mel Armstrong personal community where you live? Like there's you the artist, but then there's you the person. Are there people in your life that you would say have watched you on this whole journey and have been your cheerleaders from day one?

B (25:53)

Oh yeah, that would have to be my family. Yeah, I guess because, you know, we've been through some tough times and stuff and I have stuck with this and there were sometimes I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna have to go and get a normal job, a 9 to 5 job and you know, but I've stuck with it and I've watched me so stick with it and been very supportive of me. My, my daughter in particular loves the fact that I do this and she tells all her friends that I'm an artist and I make money from my art and she just loves that and she writes books so that I can illustrate them. And you know, she's. It's so sweet. So yeah, they are my biggest supporters. My friends, I don't know if they really know what I do. They do, you know, support me and cheer me on, especially if I'm posting stuff on, you know, social media and they see it and they're like oh, this is amazing. But really, I don't know if they really know what I do, which is,

A (26:49)

what would you like them to know? We could put it in this podcast and send them this.

B (26:53)

Oh, God, yes. I don't know. I illustrate. I draw pretty pictures that go on products and go in books and. And they're like, is that a job?

A (27:05)

Yeah, it is. I made it for myself.

B (27:07)

Yeah.

A (27:07)

Oh, I love that. Well, it sounds kind of dreamy the way that you're living your life. You seem so centered and so humble, and you also seem like you're having a beautiful impact, and I just want to thank you for your time, Mel. If people want to support you and find you and learn more about your work, your art, anything, where can they find you?

B (27:28)

Yes. So if you just go to melarmstrong.com you'll find my website, and from there you can find information on my community, my social media and everything. Everything else.

A (27:38)

And your YouTube channel with, like, a lot of. A lot of stuff happening on that YouTube channel. That could be a whole other conversation, but It's a gorgeous YouTube channel. Well done.

B (27:46)

Thank you. That one's sort of just growing organically. I never kind of expected that to blow up as much as it has, but it has, so that's nice.

A (27:54)

Ah. I love that you have lots of different places that you can help people on their journeys, whether it's free on YouTube, whether it's smaller courses on Skillshare, whether it's your own community or something that you've built on your own. Plus, you are the real deal. You're licensing, you're doing children's books. You have your own product. Well done, Mel. You're probably a huge role model to so many people, and I feel super inspired after talking to you, so thank you.

B (28:21)

Thank you so much, and thank you for having me on here. It's been so much fun chatting and talking about all this stuff, which I love.

A (28:27)

So, yeah, I could talk about it all day. Well, everybody, thanks for tuning in, and please come back for our next episode of the Art plus Audience podcast. Be sure to tell us who you'd like to have on the podcast next. We're always looking for amazing folks to interview. Bye. Thanks so much for tuning in. Hey, could you do me a favor? Could you subscribe to this podcast and then share it with one of your best art friends? I'd really appreciate it. And then head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Leverage your art account, and you can keep up with all of our future episodes. Thank you so much for your support. It means everything to have you here listening and learning.

B (29:07)

Bye.