Sizes

Summary

Podcast Summary: Articles of Interest — “Sizes”

Host: Avery Trufelman
Date: June 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Articles of Interest is a deep dive into the elusive world of clothing sizes—how they're made, why they're so inconsistent, the role of fit models, and the emotional impact sizing has on us. Avery Trufelman explores why “sizes” are so fraught, blending personal anecdotes, expert interviews, and inside looks at both technological and traditional approaches to fit, ultimately questioning the meaning and value of the numbers on our clothing tags.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Frustration of Sizing (00:00–01:35)

• Avery recounts her struggle with inconsistent clothing sizes and her experience with Unspun, a startup that attempted “size-free” jeans by scanning bodies for perfect custom fits.
• Memorable Quote:
  • Avery (01:11): “What size am I? In some brands, I am a size 12. In some brands, I'm a size 6. I have even been a size 2. I have been every size in between.”

2. The Promise—and Limits—of Size-Free Tech (01:35–03:34)

• Unspun built jeans without size labels using body scanning tech, but while the custom result was amazing, the process wasn’t scalable.
• Brooke McEver (Unspun, 01:35): “So we're size free.”
• Avery (02:40): “...the resulting jeans were in fact fantastic. I still have them. I wear them all the time. ...There’s no size label on them. They're just my size.”
• Technology has moved on at Unspun, but mass production still depends on old sizing systems.

3. The Mysterious Fit Model (04:06–06:07)

• Behind every brand’s size chart lies a “fit model”—an actual person with a specific set of measurements.
• Brands grade their clothes up or down from this “baseline” body, which may or may not match yours.
• Brooke McEver (04:06): “They have a fit model. So they choose whoever they think is like their person and then they design their entire collection around this person that was very hard to find.”

4. The Life and Science of a Fit Model (07:42–11:53)

• Marcy Spanier (former plus-size fit model and agent) and Britt Dunlop (active fit model) share how they became models, the highly specific requirements for the job, and the genetic lottery of “standard” measurements.
• There are fit models for all sizes, but only a tiny fraction of people have perfectly proportional measurements for a size.
• Britt Dunlop (09:54): “There are measurements that are just physically, you can't change that you're just born with or not.”
• Models work alongside technical designers to translate how garments feel and fit on a real body versus a mannequin.

5. The Role of the Technical Designer (11:07–12:32)

• Nikki Martin, a technical designer, explains that fit is key to repeat purchases and how the knowledge of a skilled fit model can’t be fully replaced by technology.
• Nikki Martin (12:08): “If something fits you, you're going to hold on to it, you're going to wear it, you're going to go back to it repeatedly.”

6. Inside the Fitting—Technical Expertise (13:06–15:21)

• Zach Smith (male fit model) demonstrates the highly technical nature of fittings—assessing garment balance, seam placement, fabric behavior, etc.
• The relationship between fit models and designers is deeply collaborative, with both parties drawing on technical expertise.

7. Maintenance and the Difficulty of Consistency (16:28–19:39)

• Fit models must maintain exact measurements—workouts, lifestyle, posture, even everyday activities can affect symmetry.
• Marcy Spanier (16:33): “It's very important that you keep your numbers.”
• Zach Smith (17:23): “Like with snowboarding, I will literally halfway through the day be like, I'm going to ride the other direction ... purely out of symmetry, because I don't want to create imbalances in my body.”
• Models check themselves compulsively and know their bodies so well they can often feel when something is off.

8. Even the Pros Face Sizing Woes (19:39–20:42)

• Remarkably, even fit models are sized differently by different brands.
• Britt Dunlop (19:56): “One company will call me a small and one will call me a medium.”
• Nikki Martin (20:15): “Every brand has their own definition of what a size 8 is. You also have a lot of vanity sizing, and that's where the line of sizing is getting blurred.”

9. Vanity Sizing and Grading (20:42–24:43)

• Vanity sizing (smaller numbers for larger clothes) confuses consumers and makes standardization difficult.
• Sizing is also complicated by shifts in style, manufacturing location, materials, and grading (how sizes are scaled up and down from the model).
• Zach Smith (29:34): “...it is confusing to find things that fit you.”
• Zach Smith (30:38): “It’s adjusted sizing. Size creep is normal. It changes with new styles and new ways of wearing clothes.”
• Britt Dunlop (32:05): “...the mannequin pin that they used that were my measurements was from the 70s and it was a size 12. That was my exact measurement as the current size 4.”

10. Emotional Impact: Measurement Anxiety and Size as Identity (32:05–34:29)

• Sizing numbers shape self-perception but are ultimately arbitrary and unfixed.
• Avery Trufelman (32:48): “...the thing that makes sizing and shopping so uncomfortable, which is confronting your own body.”
• Britt Dunlop (34:22): “Numbers and sizing doesn't mean anything.”
• The advice? Focus on fit, not numbers. Cut the size tags out—fit is what matters.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On the Demoralization of Sizing:
  • Avery (01:11): “What size am I? In some brands, I am a size 12. In some brands I'm a size 6.”
• The Fit Model on Consistency:
  • Marcy Spanier (16:33): “It's very important that you keep your numbers.”
  • Zach Smith (17:23): “...purely out of symmetry, because I don't want to create imbalances in my body.”
• Industry Inconsistency:
  • Nikki Martin (20:15): “Every brand has their own definition of what a size 8 is. ...that’s where the line of sizing is getting blurred.”
• On Old Sizing:
  • Britt Dunlop (32:05): “...the mannequin pin ...was from the 70s and it was a size 12. That was my exact measurement as the current size 4.”
• Emotional Advice:
  • Britt Dunlop (34:22): “Numbers and sizing doesn’t mean anything.”

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Segment Timestamps for Major Sections

• Intro & Tech Solution Attempt — 00:00–03:34
• Fit Model Explanation — 04:06–06:07
• Becoming/Being a Fit Model — 07:42–11:19
• The Fitting Process (Technical Details) — 13:06–15:21
• Maintaining Fit Model Measurements — 16:28–19:39
• Industry Sizing Inconsistencies & Vanity Sizing — 19:39–24:43
• Broader Industry Blind Spots (Plus, Petite) — 24:43–25:48
• What It Takes to Be a Fit Model — 25:52–28:29
• Men’s vs. Women’s Sizing and Effects — 28:48–32:05
• Measurement Anxiety and Final Thoughts — 32:05–34:39

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Conclusion: Main Takeaways

• Sizing is more arbitrary, inconsistent, and emotionally loaded than we think.
• A huge amount of technical knowledge and real-world bodywork goes into producing “industry standard” fits, but standards themselves are unstable and shifting.
• Even professional fit models struggle with brands’ inconsistent sizing.
• The healthiest way forward? Focus on what fits your body and ignore the label.

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For Further Exploration

• Fit model agencies & opportunities: State Management ([info link provided in episode])
• Photos & further content: articlesofinterest.substack.com
• Related episode: “Plus Sizes”

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Host’s Final Advice:

• “Buy what fits you and if you’re wrapped up in what the label says, just cut the tag out.” (34:29)

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Transcript

[Host/Narrator]

I'm generally pretty tech skeptical, but seven years ago, I witnessed something quite amazing.

[Brooke McEver]

Yes. So this is our space. So we're building it out right now.

[Host/Narrator]

This was back when I lived in the San Francisco Bay area and I went to this white walled startup y looking tech office in a warehouse in an industrial part of town. All very cliche.

[Brooke McEver]

We have an entire software team here, so we work really closely with them on creating algorithms.

[Host/Narrator]

But this company was working on something I could really get behind that.

[Brooke McEver]

Take into account your body shape.

[Host/Narrator]

That's Brooke McEver, director of product innovation at Unspun, which back then in 2019 was completely rethinking pants, specifically jeans.

[Brooke McEver]

What are your pain points in finding jeans?

[Nikki Martin]

Pain points?

[Host/Narrator]

Self loathing.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I don't know. Like, buying clothes is hard, but is

[Brooke McEver]

it like the butt doesn't fit? They're too long, they're too short.

[Host/Narrator]

Listen to that. I couldn't even narrow down what's so hard about finding jeans that fit. They simply never do. Yeah, I feel like I often I don't have a sense of my own size and so I'll just grab things that I think are cute and they just like don't fit.

[Zach Smith]

And it's demoralizing.

[Host/Narrator]

I still feel this way. What size am I? In some brands, I am a size 12. In some brands I'm a size 6. I have even been a size 2. I have been every size in between. And on jeans, size 30 or 32 does not correlate to 30 or 32 inches. How are you supposed to understand what could possibly fit you? This was the problem that Unspun was trying to solve.

[Brooke McEver]

So we're size free.

[Host/Narrator]

They were making jeans without sizes.

[Brooke McEver]

And so it's kind of nice because you can go through an entire retail experience never having to look at a small or large or tell somebody what your size is or even think about it.

[Host/Narrator]

The way the size free technology worked was they used a giant scanner.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

That's the scanner right there. That room, Yes.

[Host/Narrator]

I stripped down to my underwear. Wish I wasn't feeling so bloated today. And I stood completely still on a tiny platform. And then on the tiny platform in my underwear, I was slowly spun around. It was like being in a bad music video, just slowly rotating. And in a minute and 19 seconds, I was completely scanned.

[Brooke McEver]

And we were taking 10,000 data points of your body, basically.

[Zach Smith]

Wow.

[Brooke McEver]

So every single part of you is factored into the equation.

[Host/Narrator]

And then Brooke informed me that my jeans, my custom made jeans, would be sent to me. Ta da.

[Brooke McEver]

Yeah. I think there's like a sense of relief that actually comes from people when they don't have to try things on.

[Host/Narrator]

And lo and behold, the resulting jeans were in fact fantastic. I still have them. I wear them all the time. They're great. They fit me perfectly. And there's no size label on them. They're just my size. It was an extremely cool technology, which, like all cool things, did not last, not even at Unspun.

[Brooke McEver]

Just the other day we scanned somebody. So, you know, it's possible it's just at scale. Who's ready?

[Host/Narrator]

I recently caught up with Brooke, who is still at Unspun, which is still a very radical company. They just haven't been able to focus on the size free thing because they're busy with lots of other new technologies. Like right now they're focusing on these three dimensional looms that can just weave pants right in their 3D form. It saves a lot of fabric.

[Brooke McEver]

It's a new way of patterning, it's a new way of fabric development, and then it's custom. Like those are a lot to chew on.

[Host/Narrator]

So sizeless sizing became less of a priority here and elsewhere.

[Brooke McEver]

So we're kind of waiting for someone to be ready and radical enough to do that.

[Host/Narrator]

A lot of companies aren't in a place where they can do individualized bespoke body scans. And they're very used to doing sizes a certain way. Mass produced clothes still use the imperfect science of sizes. And this imperfect science, as Brooke explained to me back in 2019, is reliant on one central mysterious figure.

[Brooke McEver]

They have a fit model. So they choose whoever they think is like their person and then they design their entire collection around this person that was very hard to find.

[Host/Narrator]

This person, the elusive fit model, is the basis of the company's sizes. And this person might have measurements that are very similar to yours. They might have very, very different measurements from yours.

[Brooke McEver]

Sometimes it's proportions. How big is their torso? Sometimes their forearm could be too long.

[Host/Narrator]

But they will impact how a clothing brand feels. It's one of the stranger careers in fashion and you might be able to do it, but I don't know if you'd want to. I'll tell you why after the break.

[Robin from PRX]

Hey there, it's Robin from prx and I want to take a moment to tell you about a big year long series from this day, a history podcast here at Radiotopia. 2026 is America's 250th birthday. And this is where folks over at this day have requested that I try and say semi quincentennial 10 times fast. Anyway, it's been 250 years since the Declaration of Independence and over at this day they are in the middle of a year long series called 50 Weeks that Shaped America. This day is doing deep dives each week on the stories from 250 years of US history that brought us to this very complicated moment. Some of them are new perspectives on huge moments like the Civil War or Prohibition. Others are lesser discussed stories that still had a massive impact like the Transcontinental Railroad or the so called Hard Hat riots of the 1970s. This day is also doing a special weekly newsletter, live shows, collaborations, bonus episodes and lots more. So as we head towards the 4th of July and beyond, this is a great time to join in. If you need a little help navigating America's big birthday, check out this day. Go to thisdaypod.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host/Narrator]

There's always so much emphasis on your routine, your morning routine, your night routine.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

But the biggest upgrade I made was my Sapira hybrid mattress from Leesa. Turns out the best hack to improve your sleep is to improve what you're sleeping on. Since making the switch to my Leesa mattress, I just unwind easier. I sleep deeper.

[Host/Narrator]

I wake up feeling amazing. Your body just falls right into the mattress and it forms right into your shape, making it not too soft and not too firm. If I were Goldilocks, this mattress my baby bear.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

And it's not just me. Lisa's been awarded the best hybrid and best memory foam mattresses by the New York Times wirecutter. Go to leesa.com for 25% off select mattresses plus get an extra $50 off with promo code articles exclusive for my listeners. That's L E-E-S-A.com promo code articles for 25% off select mattresses plus an extra $50 off support this show and let them know we sent you after checkout Lisa.com promo code articles Golden Hour is the best time of the day. It just makes everyone look like a million bucks, all sun drenched and glowing. The stylists and trend forecasters over at Macy's have long been inspired by Golden Hour and the summers in the Mediterranean, and they've bottled up that vibe and turned it into something that you can actually wear in your everyday life. They've curated looks that are specifically designed to give you that golden hour glow

[Host/Narrator]

feeling all day long.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Sh Macy's online or in store.

[Marcy Spanier]

Today I was an actress working off, off off off off Off Broadway. And somebody came up to me at the end of the play and said, my friend owns a modeling agency. And I did one of those, looking around me like, who is she talking to?

[Host/Narrator]

Marcy Spanier had never thought of herself as a model.

[Marcy Spanier]

I knew it was cute, but modeling

[Host/Narrator]

like, no, she was like a size 14.

[Marcy Spanier]

I was like a 14, 14, 16. I looked like a piece of peach pie. I just didn't. I didn't have a square job. I didn't have thick eyebrows, I didn't have big lips. And I was 57 on the nose. Most of the print models are 58 to 5 11. I was like, what is she looking at me for? And she said she owns a plus size modeling agency. Why not? You know, who wants to weigh tables?

[Host/Narrator]

Right away, Marcie was placed as a fit model.

[Marcy Spanier]

But I started fitting and I really enjoyed it because I was using my brain. And then I got to work with really great designers who were all getting involved in.

[Host/Narrator]

Plus, being a fit model isn't about having a square jaw or thick eyebrows. It's not about being thin. And it's definitely not about being tall, although it is actually about being pretty, which I'll tell you more about later. But fit models can come in many heights, many weights, many ages, because all kinds of clothing companies need fit models.

[Marcy Spanier]

If you're a 16W, an 18W or a 20W, it doesn't matter.

[Host/Narrator]

Plus size clothing companies need plus size fit models. Petite clothing companies need petite fit models. Athletic brands need athletic fit models. A brand with an older demographic will want an older fit model.

[Britt Dunlop]

As they get older, they change size, and so they just get different clients as they change size.

[Host/Narrator]

But it is not that anyone can be a fit model. Fit models need to have the right stuff.

[Britt Dunlop]

That is where a very, very small percentage is blessed with the genetic proportions.

[Host/Narrator]

And among that small percentage is Brit Dunlop.

[Britt Dunlop]

If it is a small. So I'm a size 4 size small.

[Host/Narrator]

Britt is slender and athletic and disarmingly pretty. But the key thing is she's got the right measurements.

[Britt Dunlop]

There's like 52 points of measure, and

[Host/Narrator]

they all have to be proportionate.

[Zach Smith]

Mm.

[Britt Dunlop]

Things like the length of your arm, the width of your shoulders. There are measurements that are just physically, you can't change that you're just born with or not.

[Host/Narrator]

I, for example, am not born with it. My shoulders measure 17 inches across, which is way too broad. Britt's shoulders, on the other hand, are a perfect 15 and a half inches.

[Britt Dunlop]

If my shoulders were 16 inches, I couldn't do tops. I mean, I could do bottoms, but I couldn't do tops.

[Host/Narrator]

And are there fit models who only do bottoms? It is very hard to find someone who is completely head to toe a standard size. But Britt is.

[Britt Dunlop]

I am so close to an industry standard mannequin that I am almost identical to the one that you can buy from Alvinon.

[Host/Narrator]

Alvinon is a mannequin company.

[Britt Dunlop]

There's an Alvanon mannequin that is like my identical measurements.

[Host/Narrator]

So you might ask, okay, why don't companies just design their clothes on a mannequin?

[Britt Dunlop]

I can tell when I put on a garment when it hasn't been fit on a fit model, instantly the balance is off, the pockets are in a weird place. Neckline not being big enough or doesn't stretch, doesn't fit over your head properly. Things that a human being clearly didn't put on.

[Nikki Martin]

So in my book, although there was a push to fit things on the form, there was also a push to use programs like 3D. There still will always be an industry where fit models are needed.

[Host/Narrator]

This is technical designer Nikki Martin. She's the kind of designer who'd be working with a fit model.

[Nikki Martin]

Over the course of my 20 year career in fashion, I've sold billions of dollars of goods by creating the perfect fit for big box retailers. So there's definitely a push to get away from fit models. Fit time, it can get expensive, usually an hour. With agency fees, you can be around 3, 400 bucks. So it can get costly. I feel like that was bigger pre pandemic, but what we're seeing post pandemic is like people are calling the girls and the guys back because they're needed.

[Host/Narrator]

Because it all comes down to fit, right? Why do you keep reaching for the same jacket over and over again or go to the same brand over and over again or return something or give something away. It's often because of fit.

[Nikki Martin]

If something fits you, you're going to hold on to it, you're going to wear it, you're going to go back to it repeatedly. And I feel like if people were educated on like what a great fit is, they would cut down on buying clothing that they do not need.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

How do you know when it's a bad fit? I feel like whenever I have a

[Host/Narrator]

bad fit, I'm like, well, my body is just weird. Like I feel like there's no way to know if like a fit is supposed to be good or not.

[Nikki Martin]

Yeah, well, that's why I like to point out the different regions.

[Host/Narrator]

Nikki also makes content under the name billionair. And one thing she does is she points out the elements of clothing that show they're badly constructed.

[Nikki Martin]

So, like, if you have an armhole that is all the way under your arm, just like, cutting in, if you're feeling seaming, that's making you uncomfortable. If you have a garment that feels like it's swinging away from your body in the wrong direction, that is a fit issue. So that's why you still need fit models, because they can sit down and say, hey, this jean is uncomfortable. I'm feeling something pressing when I sit down. If they're skilled, they can offer you great feedback.

[Host/Narrator]

A lot of feedback. Fit models, really good, experienced ones, don't only have the proportions of the Vitruvian Man. They, over time, get extremely well versed in clothing construction.

[Zach Smith]

The number one role I have is being an objective expert.

[Host/Narrator]

Zach Smith is a fit model who works with 45 to 50 companies at a time.

[Zach Smith]

There's a database of years of hearing what the problems are, and then also the discussion about how to fix them.

[Host/Narrator]

This is what a fitting with Zach sounds like.

[Zach Smith]

So this is the underplat stitch line. It's like peaking by a quarter inch. So that's like a button alignment thing. So they actually need to place this over and then make sure that our tie gap right there goes back to. I think we call out 3, 8.

[Host/Narrator]

I got to listen to this fitting that Zach did with a brand called Devium usa. They're based in Northern California and Zach is in la, so he does remote fittings with them once or twice a month. And so I got to sit in this zoom room, but I can't understand anything they're saying. It's like another language. It's so technical.

[Zach Smith]

So if it moved out a half inch on the smalls, it'd be kind of gnarly.

[Host/Narrator]

Think about what it would be like to do this all day.

[Zach Smith]

You're kind of standing and talking and interacting with people, and it's very socially engaging.

[Host/Narrator]

Like, some days, Zach starts at 6am to do a virtual fitting with some company on the East Coast.

[Zach Smith]

You know, I'll fit for like, three hours, and then I'll get in my car and I'll go somewhere and fit. And then with smaller brands, I can be like, the only time I can fit is tonight, so I'll fit at night. And so there's days where I fit for 12 hours.

[Britt Dunlop]

The entire time they're asking, how does it feel? What do you think? And you're. You're talking the entire Time.

[Host/Narrator]

Like, if Brit Dunlop is fitting a jacket, she's trying to think of all the scenarios it could be worn in.

[Britt Dunlop]

I pretend to drive. I pretend that I'm on the subway. I raise my arm as if I'm holding the subway. Like, if I can't lift my arm, we talk about why I have no lift and what we can do about that.

[Host/Narrator]

Fills me with so much love.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Like just knowing how much care goes into everything.

[Britt Dunlop]

Yeah. I often think, do people know how much that I put into this to make sure that they can comfortably drive in their jackets? Yes.

[Nikki Martin]

If you have a great technical person and a great fit model.

[Host/Narrator]

Nikki Martin, again, the technical designer, you're

[Nikki Martin]

really like a Batman and Robin dynamic duo team.

[Host/Narrator]

And that team will get the bat signal over and over, even if it's for a design that seems simple. Like, okay, another T shirt. This company's made a million T shirts.

[Nikki Martin]

But if it's a different fabric, then we should look at it again. Because a different material, it's going to affect the way that garment looks.

[Host/Narrator]

There should be a fitting again.

[Nikki Martin]

Yes, we do need to see this again.

[Marcy Spanier]

Becomes a collaboration over time, once you really understand how things should fit.

[Host/Narrator]

That's Marci Spanier again, the former plus size fit model. She is now an agent at State Management, and she matches plus and men's fit models with various companies.

[Marcy Spanier]

Do you talk to fit models? Yes, I fit for JCPenney. Yes, I fit for Kohl's. Yes, I fit for Mace. Because they book every week and they book for hours and hours every week.

[Host/Narrator]

The fit model is the baseline and

[Marcy Spanier]

how things are are going to grade up and grade down from this.

[Host/Narrator]

Grading up and grading down is how the company makes all the other sizes that are smaller or larger than the fit model. And this is why, for consistency, when a company likes a fit model, they'll hold onto them and they'll book them again and again and again.

[Marcy Spanier]

And when they pick their fit models, they're very loyal.

[Host/Narrator]

On one condition.

[Marcy Spanier]

It's very important that you keep your numbers.

[Host/Narrator]

Whatever size the model is, whatever the model's measurements may be, those measurements cannot change.

[Marcy Spanier]

There are certain workouts we say, don't do this, don't do that, and don't do this.

[Host/Narrator]

What should you not do?

[Marcy Spanier]

Bar is terrible.

[Brooke McEver]

Why?

[Marcy Spanier]

Or in small doses, because you get very muscular. I represent men also, and some guys are very athletic, and if they're not careful. Oh, man, my thigh again. I played volleyball last weekend and my thigh popped up. I'm a half inch too big in the Thigh again. But you can't keep gaining and losing weight, and you can't keep getting built up.

[Zach Smith]

But even my serving, if I serve too much, the lats get a little bigger. And so it's like. And lats affect your chest circumference.

[Host/Narrator]

And the big fear for Zach and for all fit models is asymmetry.

[Zach Smith]

Like with snowboarding, I will literally halfway through the day be like, I'm going to ride the other direction the rest of the day. I'm going to ride switch the rest of the day purely out of symmetry, because I don't want to create imbalances in my body.

[Host/Narrator]

And it's not just about sport and exercise. Fit models need to be aware of all. All the little inconsistencies in everyday life,

[Britt Dunlop]

like how you stand, like, your posture. Posture is a major thing with fitting. Wearing a backpack can change your posture. Wearing something too heavy on your shoulder can change how you're standing. So I have to make sure that I go to the chiropractor to stay adjusted properly. Like, as a fit model, you can never really be off duty because everything you do affects yourself.

[Host/Narrator]

But obviously, you know, fit models are people, and honestly, they're very cool people.

[Marcy Spanier]

There's some people that fit as part of being an actor or being an artist or being a jewelry maker or being a mom. One of our most famous models is Lisa Howard, who has been on Broadway. She sung at the Tonys. She's one of our fit models.

[Host/Narrator]

So these people aren't just sitting in a room preserving their measurements. They're doing stuff.

[Marcy Spanier]

If you're a human being, you're going to have your period, you're going to go away for Thanksgiving.

[Host/Narrator]

So it's up to the fit model to keep track of all their measurements and know when something's different.

[Britt Dunlop]

They trust me to know if I went to Pilates the night before and I overdid it and my arm's a little bit swollen, and they say, is that too tight? I know that. No, my arm is actually a little bit big, so it's actually not too tight.

[Host/Narrator]

Do you, like, take your tape measure

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

out and, like, measure yourself?

[Britt Dunlop]

Yeah, yeah. I. Yeah, I have to spot check myself if I feel like things are fitting funny. And I start to feel like panic. I was like, oh, my God, are my measurements off? Are my measurements off? And so I'll measure myself in the changing room. I'm like, okay, no, it's not me. It's the garments. Yeah, I'm now to the point where I. I can wake up in the morning and feel I can just tell what my measurements are. I can really tell by just being. And people like, oh, you're so lucky, because I can pull out something that I've had for 20 years. They're like, oh, well, it still fits you because all of your clothes always still fit you. But yes, the trade off is, yes, everything will still fit me, but I've had to make sure that things always fit me every single moment of my life.

[Host/Narrator]

And you want to know something wild? Even fit models, these select people who are so hyper aware of their measurements and dedicated to keeping them consistent and know so much about clothing, even they can hardly keep up with what size they supposedly are.

[Britt Dunlop]

One company will call me a small and one will call me a medium.

[Marcy Spanier]

The most popular, busiest plus size model. Some people call her a 1618 and some people call her an 1820.

[Britt Dunlop]

Or one will call me a 4 and one will call me a 6.

[Marcy Spanier]

Like the model's measurements never change. It's what they're calling them will change.

[Nikki Martin]

Every brand has their own definition of what a size 8 is. You also have a lot of vanity sizing, and that's where the line of sizing is getting blurred.

[Host/Narrator]

And certainly you have heard of vanity sizing. It's this notion that companies will shift their sizes down to make clients feel smaller.

[Nikki Martin]

I mean, if it makes you feel better, let the good times roll. But, you know, I think it's confusing the general population, if I'm being honest.

[Host/Narrator]

Yes, extremely. So what is the deal with vanity sizing and how do we deal with it after the break?

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[Marcy Spanier]

I loved fit. I loved the fact that I was engaging with clients, that I was learning all of this technical language and I was part of making clothing more beautiful for plus size women.

[Host/Narrator]

When Marcie talks about working as a plus size model in the 1980s, she's talking about a different world. It was the heyday of plus size Fashion.

[Marcy Spanier]

There was a big plus size magazine with a editor from Bazaar.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

There was a whole plus size magazine.

[Marcy Spanier]

There were two or three over the years.

[Host/Narrator]

I actually talked about this in a different episode about why plus sizes peaked in the 1980s and why they're so hard to find now.

[Marcy Spanier]

We have a lot of companies not paying attention.

[Host/Narrator]

I'm not going to reiterate all these points here. They're in an episode called plus sizes. But this is all just to say there are huge gaps in the marketplace when it comes to size and fit.

[Nikki Martin]

I'll say this. F plus is the afterthought. Petite is definitely. Yeah.

[Host/Narrator]

Technical designer Nikki Martin.

[Nikki Martin]

Sometimes they're not even throwing it on the petite model. They're just like, oh, whatever this is, we'll chop it, make it shorter and we're just gonna let the good times roll. Oh, no, sorry to that girl.

[Host/Narrator]

Which is all just to say a lot more kinds of sizes could use more attention and the skill of a good fit model. And maybe that fit model is you.

[Nikki Martin]

A lot of people don't know that there is an opportunity to become a fit model. Like plus petite is an area that I always see that is just ignored completely. I've seen plus size people say, can I be petite and plus. Yes, that is an actual thing. But then also you need the brands to have the demand for it.

[Host/Narrator]

So we should all be demanding, bother

[Nikki Martin]

these brands and tell them to use fit models instead of mannequins for everything. Because you need live and in person, real time feedback.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

So if someone's listening to this and

[Host/Narrator]

they're like, I think I have what it takes. I think I could be a fit model.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

What should their next step?

[Marcy Spanier]

Infostatemanagement.com all right, we look at everybody.

[Host/Narrator]

But be warned, dear listener, the job is really very difficult. I mean, I already told you some of the ways it's hard, like the technical knowledge and maintaining your measurements. But if you really want to get a sense of what it's like day to day, check out what's in Brit Dunlop's bag.

[Britt Dunlop]

This is my model, like basics here. So I have, like packed pretty. This is light for me.

[Host/Narrator]

This is a huge bag.

[Britt Dunlop]

Oh, we have two bags.

[Host/Narrator]

When Britt is schlepping around New York City going from fitting to fitting, this is the kit she brings with her and it is mostly full of bras.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Oh, my God, you have so many bras.

[Britt Dunlop]

Yes. So the bra for every client, pretty much.

[Host/Narrator]

She has to make sure that with each fitting, she's wearing that one particular bra. That the brand likes because of course, her bra changes her measurements.

[Britt Dunlop]

This bra, you know, she's had a life and she's a little bit flatter. But that's good because I have a client that wants my bust a little bit smaller. I wear this one for that client.

[Host/Narrator]

And in addition to all the nude bras, Brit has to bring along a kit of clothes.

[Britt Dunlop]

Then you always have to have a tank top, black tank top, black T shirt, another black tank top, and then lightweight sweater, long sleeve T shirt, all black.

[Host/Narrator]

So that if you're fitting anything, a pair of jeans, a suit jacket, an evening gown, outerwear, you have something to go with it.

[Britt Dunlop]

The key is when they ask, do you have fill in the blank? You just wouldn't say yes. Do you have a lightweight long sleeve T shirt? Like.

[Host/Narrator]

Yep.

[Britt Dunlop]

And I just go in my changing room and I get out my lightweight T shirt and I put it on and then I come back and they're a clothing company. Yes, but I am the mannequin. I'm the living mannequin.

[Host/Narrator]

I provide, including a few options for shoes.

[Britt Dunlop]

My black pump for. I was doing suits earlier and then we have like a nude stiletto for. I was doing gowns.

[Host/Narrator]

So how many places are you going tomorrow? Six.

[Britt Dunlop]

Six. Each one is between one to three hours and then I get 15 minutes in between. Between is what I get to change into my street clothes and then walk to my next location. When do you pee? I don't a lot. I have a very strong bladder.

[Host/Narrator]

And even while running around the city with all her kit, the fit model still has to look very good.

[Britt Dunlop]

I have to show up with a blowout, my nails are done and I am always bikini ready. As they say.

[Nikki Martin]

It is an esthetic based business, but

[Host/Narrator]

it isn't technical designer Nikki Martin.

[Nikki Martin]

You are essentially looking for the person that fits the clothes the best and relates better back to your customer. But looks, it can factor into it. It depends. I have seen people go for the model that is quote unquote, better put together. Obviously, it's also less of a factor for men. For him, it's like you could just use your bar of dial soap and roll on in.

[Host/Narrator]

It's different to the point where Zack, the male fit model, could not handle when I asked him if appearance matters because you're also pretty handsome. I don't know.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I just wonder if this is something

[Host/Narrator]

that you think about as part of your appeal.

[Zach Smith]

I really appreciate you saying that it's good for my ego, but I know that it's not true.

[Host/Narrator]

Well, Zach, you are handsome. I just think it's tied up in this idea that menswear is not about beauty, that it's about straightforwardness and practicality and what the garment can do for you. I mean, even menswear sizes seem to be more straightforward, and they're often labeled in the inches and measurements they are, rather than whatever a women's size 8 or 14 is supposed to mean. But make no mistake, menswear also suffers from vanity sizing.

[Zach Smith]

I have this conversation a lot about vanity sizing with men specifically, but it is confusing to find things that fit you.

[Host/Narrator]

Often a men's size 32 will actually measure a 34 or 36. And so every now and then, Zach encounters an exciting new company who wants to completely get rid of vanity sizing.

[Zach Smith]

Smaller brands. They'll come to me and be like, well, you know, we want a 32, 32 pair of denim, and we want it to measure 32. I'd be like, great. Six months down the road, the returns are through the roof.

[Host/Narrator]

Zach has seen it time and time again. Customers do not want a size 32 that actually measures 32 inches.

[Zach Smith]

There's actually a very valid reason. It's that, like, pants used to be high waisted, and it's not where we wear our pants. So if you took a pair of traditional 32 trousers that measured 32 at the normal waistline, where you're supposed to wear them down, where we wear pants now, that measurement is not 32. That is more like 33 and a half or 34. And so it's actually accurate. If it measures 34, it isn't vanity sizing.

[Host/Narrator]

It's adjusted sizing. Size creep is normal. It's. It changes with new styles and new ways of wearing clothes.

[Zach Smith]

Sometimes it's just the design aesthetic. I'll leave names out, but if I fit for like a. We're a super cool streetwear brand. These are our 32. And I'm like, bro, this measures like 38. And it's like, yeah, that's the look. It's the look we want. There is always design intent and there's always fit intent. And fit is a spectrum.

[Host/Narrator]

Size even changes if the clothing is made of a thicker fabric.

[Zach Smith]

The fabric got thicker and it's like you're losing circumference. So it needs to measure 36 to fit like a 32 pant would normally fit.

[Host/Narrator]

What if they're stretch? The pants might be sized down. If they're stiff, they might be sized up.

[Zach Smith]

It's the truth. It's not an argument. It is the truth that if you go into a store and you grab three of the exacts, they say that they're the exact same size and you put on all three of them, there are a ton of variances. It's just the inconsistency of the manufacturing process. And it's like a company like Levi's, they might have made this, this pair of 32, 32 pants. They made this pair in Morocco, but they made this pair in India and they made this other pair over here because they had a diversification strategy because they didn't want to make everything in the same place in case there was a war.

[Host/Narrator]

Sizes are nearly impossible to standardize because bodies are not standard and styles change and materials change and manufacturing changes and over time, nutrition and lifestyle radically change.

[Britt Dunlop]

I'll never forget going to one of my clients and the mannequin pin that they used that were my measurements was from the 70s and it was a size 12. That was my exact measurement as the current size 4.

[Host/Narrator]

And I think this is the core insecurity that sizes tap into. They feel like an assessment, an inaccurate, ever changing grading system where you never quite know where you stand.

[Nikki Martin]

Like sizing, that's going to drive you crazy. But double focus on that. Focus on the measurement and how the garment fits you. Like, if you can take a time to measure yourself a few key points, it's really helpful in picking out the right garments and finding your perfect fit.

[Host/Narrator]

Ah, but even still, to know how these clothes will fit relative to you, you must do that thing that I think we all want to avoid, the thing that makes sizing and shopping so uncomfortable, which is confronting your own body.

[Nikki Martin]

Grab yourself a tape measure.

[Host/Narrator]

Nikki Martin made this helpful step by step video that showed people how to measure themselves.

[Nikki Martin]

Make sure you go around the widest point of your back and you want to go around the apex of the bus.

[Host/Narrator]

And even for Nikki, a technical designer who thinks about bodies and fit all day long, making this measurement video was kind of difficult.

[Nikki Martin]

It can be a psychological thing. Even myself, when I did the how to video, it's like, oh, gosh, I've gained like 20 pounds. I'm not where I want to be, but I had to put that to the side to inform the world.

[Host/Narrator]

No matter what method, the sizing on a tag, the number on a tape measure, or spinning around in your underwear on a scanner. Wish I wasn't feeling so bloated today. There are all different ways of doing that thing that we do not want to do. Reckon with our aging, asymmetrical corporeal selves to see that you're changing and you're shifting because you are. Even if you're a fit model.

[Britt Dunlop]

I really believe in cutting the size out of clothes. Like I've even done it in my life when I'm like, this is for whatever reason making me feel weird thoughts if I cut the size out and then I won't even remember in a

[Host/Narrator]

month because this is what fit models know and what the general public has yet to internalize.

[Britt Dunlop]

Numbers and sizing doesn't mean anything.

[Host/Narrator]

They really do not just buy what

[Britt Dunlop]

fits you and then if you're wrapped up in what what the label says, like just cut the tag out.

[Host/Narrator]

Thank you so much to Josh Smith and Zach Smith, no relation, for the inspiration for this episode.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

And thank you also to legendary fit

[Host/Narrator]

expert and pattern maker Issa Billefeld. Your insights were so helpful. I'm sorry I couldn't fit you in.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Thanks also to Bill Ivers at State

[Host/Narrator]

Management for helping to book Marcy and Brittany. Especially because Britt is running around from appointment to appointment all day and doesn't get any time to check email.

[Britt Dunlop]

My lovely laptop sits collecting dust.

[Host/Narrator]

Also, Britt did this amazing thing where she took pictures of what a fitting looks like. If you want to see what it looks like, head to articlesofinterest.substack.com Radiotopia from PRX.