Grieving Prosucktively (w/ Winston Hodges)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Grieving Prosucktively" (w/ Winston Hodges)

Podcast: Artificial Intelligence
Hosts: Kristina Kent & Mary MacLeod
Guest: Winston Hodges (stand-up comedian, podcaster)
Date: May 24, 2021

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Episode Overview

This episode blends sharp wit and heartfelt conversation as Kristina and Mary welcome stand-up comedian Winston Hodges to discuss his journey through grief, comedy, imposter syndrome, and the realities of channeling pain into art. With a focus on Winston’s award-winning stand-up special “Grieving Productively” and his experiences with the Dead Dad Comedy Pod, the group digs deep into how humor can be a tool for coping with loss and the complicated internal lives of comedians. The conversation is candid, warm, and full of both laughs and genuine emotional insight.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing Winston Hodges

• Winston is a stand-up comedian based in D.C. (by way of Richmond), host of the Winsmas Games podcast, and co-host (with Amber Hendricks) of the Dead Dad Comedy Pod, a podcast for comedians and guests dealing with grief and loss.
  ([00:40]–[02:33])
• “It’s got a pulse—unlike the relatives of all…” – Winston on his podcast's activity status.

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2. About "Grieving Productively"

• Winston’s stand-up special, filmed in the cemetery where his father is buried, combines stand-up with personal reflection and creative editing due to the pandemic.
  ([03:12]–[06:35])
• Winston: “Grieving Productively is just like a 40 minute stand up special slash basic art piece…” ([05:13])
• Developed after accumulating 15–20 minutes of material about his father’s death; felt it wasn’t suitable for club sets, so made it a stand-alone project.

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3. Using Humor to Process Grief

• Winston began performing material about his father immediately after his diagnosis and death, using the stage and his comic community as his way of processing.
• Winston: “I just wanted to be near my friends and all my friends do comedy.” ([07:42])
• The response from audience members with similar losses affirmed the value of expressing grief through comedy.
• Winston: “I feel like my dad’s death was senseless… I can give purpose to this and, like, help people.” ([09:34])

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4. Building a Community Around Loss

• The Dead Dad Comedy Pod connects comedians and guests who have experienced loss.
• Winston and Amber invite guests mostly through online comedy groups, ensuring they’re ready to talk about grief in a humorous context.
• Winston: “Some of the times I have laughed the hardest has been on that show where someone is so close to crying and then we do something… truly fucked up. And Amber’s just like, oh, no.” ([13:31])
• Emphasizes the delicate approach needed to avoid being exploitative or insensitive.

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5. Inevitability and Math of Loss

• Candid discussion about the anxiety of losing parents and mortality math, with both hosts relating personal stories of losing a parent young.
  ([15:02]–[17:50])
• Kristina: “If you visit [your parents] for Christmas, in Easter for 10 years, you’re only seeing them 20 more times.” ([17:29])
• Light touches of gallows humor throughout, keeping the tone honest but not maudlin.

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6. Comedy as a Coping Mechanism and Industry View

• Reflecting on the culture around death (“for profit industry”) and humor’s role in making the unbearable bearable.
• Winston: “There’s a whole industry around death, which is nuts… there’s someone that’s willing for a lot of money to handle everything and not make you have to fucking deal with it.” ([11:39])
• Hosts relate their own coping mechanisms (e.g., running, joining activities) and the universality, yet individuality, of grief.

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7. Navigating Comedy: New Material, Community, and Bombing

• Winston discusses how he evaluates new comedians (“everyone sucks when they start... if you’re nice and work hard, I’ll root for you”), and the importance of unique perspectives over “hacky” topics.
• Winston: “Are the way that you’re talking about those things… something I’ve heard seven or eight different comics say before?” ([23:00])
• Revisiting old material as he grows; keeping all past set lists and adapting as his skill improves.

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8. Imposter Syndrome & The Moving Goalpost

• Winston details his constant struggle with imposter syndrome—even after a great set, he doubts whether it was really his talent or just a friendly crowd.
  • Winston: “Am I the type of comic that is respected, or am I the type of comedian that is not respected by other comics but I do well?” ([28:27])
• Discusses giving himself until age 35 to “make it” in comedy full-time.
  • “If, at 36, I am at a point where I’m not like, oh, god, I’m gonna have to get a side gig…” ([40:18])
• The goalpost always moves; acknowledges this drive is universal in both capitalist society and creative endeavors.

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9. Support Networks and Validation

• The value of friends who “gas you up” versus those who give honest critique.
  • Winston: “You need a few friends to gas you up and you need a few friends… we should talk.” ([35:19])
• Wrestling with the impulse to seek validation both from friends and the wider scene.

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10. On Content Creation and Social Media

• Winston’s TikTok journey: grew from 100 friends to almost 4,000 followers by posting regularly, doing bits and bad stand-up advice.
  • Winston: “Now I just want to see if I can build a small following on TikTok… It’s fun, I like it.” ([41:58]–[42:54])
• Sees social media as a place to experiment, but tries to avoid burnout by leveraging crowd work and keeping things playful.

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11. Developing Material and Performing

• Describes balancing crowd work with written material, and how crowd work can spark new jokes.
• Longest set: 90 minutes; prefers to maintain control (no drinking before shows).
• Advice for new comics: revisit old material every few months, don’t throw anything away.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Winston on grief and comedy:
  “At a certain point, it’s just making myself relive trauma in front of people… But there’s times where I feel like doing them, because I do think a lot of the jokes in it are, like, really fucking good.” ([06:45])
• On the podcasting process:
  “It feels like a documentary to me.” ([03:12])
• On reaching guests for Dead Dad Comedy Pod:
  “Putting it out there and letting people come to me… If I feel like they’re at a point, just be like, I respect you as a person, I’d love to hear about your journey when you’re ready.” ([14:39])
• On imposter syndrome:
  “The only time I don’t feel that is when other people are telling me this… I can make people laugh, but am I respected?” ([26:54])
• On moving goalposts in comedy and life:
  “I think that’s a thing for everything…there’s always the next big thing. I think that’s just a big product of capitalism and just… I wanna be as good as I can humanly possibly be.” ([36:53])
• On TikTok hate:
  “I kill with kindness on TikTok…he was just making fun of me and then I just responded with, hey man, I just want to thank you so much for your service and you fighting for my right to make these jokes…and he goes, da da…You’re right.” ([53:58])

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Key Timestamps

• [03:12] Winston explains "Grieving Productively"
• [07:42] Processing grief onstage immediately after loss
• [13:31] How guests come onto Dead Dad Comedy Pod
• [17:29] “You’re only seeing your parents 20 more times”—on the math of life
• [21:24] Evaluating new comics and detecting potential
• [26:49] The permanence and management of imposter syndrome
• [36:48] The problem of the moving goalpost in comedy
• [40:18] Defining what “making it” means at 35–36
• [41:38] On TikTok and content creation
• [44:11] Developing old material, knowing when to revisit jokes
• [46:16] On marathon sets, drinking before shows, and blackout performances
• [53:58] Killing with kindness on TikTok

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Tone & Language

The episode maintains a mix of irreverent, dark humor and genuine vulnerability. Winston’s style is self-deprecating yet insightful, and both Kristina and Mary balance probing questions with their own stories and light banter, making the episode equally engaging and relatable for those dealing with loss or the struggles of creative work.

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Summary Takeaway

"Grieving Prosucktively" is a raw and witty exploration of loss, comedy, self-doubt, and connection. The episode stands out for its honest depiction of how comedians process trauma and find purpose in dark times—and how they use humor, community, and self-awareness to both thrive and survive.

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Transcript

[A]

What is the meaning of life?

[B]

Where do we go when we die?

[A]

Does Google know my blood type?

[B]

Will she text me back?

[A]

When will the water wars begin?

[B]

Does anyone want to date me?

[A]

I'm Tina.

[B]

I'm Mary.

[A]

And together we'll answer life's biggest questions correctly.

[B]

This is artificial intelligence.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna say hi, Mary.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

And right now, I'll introduce our third person. Well, we have four people at the table. Always Austin. But our fourth person and guest is Winston Hodges.

[C]

Yes, that is me.

[A]

Buttery4Radio voice. I wrote down your credits. Okay. Winston is a stand up comedian based out of D.C. yes, by way of Richmond.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

Is that how you phrase.

[C]

That is how I say it.

[A]

Okay. I like the way because I don't

[C]

want to forget my roots.

[A]

Right.

[C]

All right. But also, I'm bigger than this city now.

[B]

Somebody in Farmville loves me.

[C]

Well, it's irony. So. No, it's. Sorry we don't all have our I love Jewish food shirts.

[B]

There was context to that.

[C]

There was none. She just had it on when we got here and it was very offensive.

[B]

Festival. Okay, keep going.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

He. He.

[A]

And let me know if this is all right. He has a weekly game show podcast called winsmas Games.

[C]

Yes. Which I haven't done weekly in almost a year.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, A year.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So it's. All right. So you do the credits as written.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then I will correct. Please accept because I haven't updated them.

[B]

Please.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

Okay. So. So it's not weekly anymore. We do it by seasons. But when it's a season, it is. It's weekly.

[A]

Okay. I got this from your website.

[C]

Yes. And. And that is not correct. Thank you for letting me know the things I need to correct on my website.

[A]

So we got the. The first one's already wrong.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

A live show and podcast called Host Battle with Chris Allen.

[C]

Yes, we did do that.

[A]

Okay, cool. As well as a podcast called Dead Dad Comedy Pod with co host Amber Hendricks, who is also a comedian. Enrichment.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Which is very active.

[C]

That is active.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then it's got a pulse. Unlike the relatives of all.

[B]

Parts of it are dead.

[C]

Yeah, parts of it are dead, but that's what the show said.

[A]

And then during the pandemic, you came out with a stand up special called Grieving Productively.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And that has won multiple awards. Awards won like many, but I couldn't find out exactly which one.

[C]

It's fine. It's just, it's a few film festivals and they got like best in show and Best short documentary and stuff. It turns out you can. It turns out you can put stand up specials under documentaries, which is amazing because I just lie on stage.

[A]

It feels. It feels like a documentary to me.

[C]

It's great. Well, if Dinesh d' Souza gets to make documentaries.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

And my. My starting questions were gonna be about grieving productively because I was really interest

[C]

interested in like, my dad is still dead.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

That has not changed.

[A]

Talk about what it's about.

[C]

The resurrection has not been successful to make about that.

[B]

I think this. Okay, so here it is.

[C]

Did you kill him?

[B]

No.

[C]

Did you give my father pancreatic cancer? You monster.

[A]

It's been on her chest for a while.

[B]

Yeah, I have it. This is why I actually started this podcast to get you on air and

[C]

confess to them the murder of J.B. hodges.

[B]

So I watched it and of course I Venmo'd you for it because it was great work and I wanted.

[C]

Oh, shit. Thank you.

[B]

But I think that I said grieving productivity.

[C]

That's okay, that's. That's fine. Because I'm in a comedy contest right now where the credit is listed as grieving prosuctively.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So you're doing fine. Grieving perceptively is a very different stand up specialist, very different stand up special than what I am doing. Yeah, it's pretty bad. It's amazing. What difference.

[B]

One letter is your next.

[C]

Yeah. Grieving Persephone.

[A]

We miss her. Come back from Hades.

[C]

Yeah, please come back from the underworld.

[A]

Wait, okay, so, yeah, so talk about that. I'm very interested in also, like how you got into comedy because this is. You just hit your six year.

[C]

Six years. You can do great research here.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

Very, very well researched.

[A]

Thank you so much. I've been avoiding this article. I have to write. I like it.

[C]

I'm glad that you did that.

[A]

So, yeah, talk about.

[C]

Oh, okay. Like, no, I had some questions for you.

[A]

Please, the floor is yours.

[C]

You are the guest for which one? That was like three things.

[A]

Wherever you find an interest.

[C]

All right, I take back my compliment about the tightness of this radio program.

[A]

Okay, Well, I say that because I don't know how many times you've explained grieving productively.

[C]

A lot. Now I'll do a quick rundown. Grieving productively is just like a 40 minute stand up special slash basic art piece, I guess because it's like. And it's me filming. I did all my material in the gray. In the grave, in the. In the graveyard where my. Where my dad's buried performance yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, like, to him, I had. I have, like, my buddy watch it, and he's just saw the beginning part before he got to it, and he was just like, if this is just Wednesday and doing it to his dad for this is unreal. It's like. And he said. And it cut to, like, a different show, but it's like. So it's just me. It took so much time to edit, but it's just 40 minutes of, like, I wrote a bunch of material after my dad passed. And, like, I did sets the night he was diagnosed and the night he passed away and just taking. And it got to a point where, like, I had 15 to 20 minutes of material. And when you have, like, 15 to 20 minutes of material about, like, your dead dad, and you're, like, working clothes and stuff, you can't be the dead dad middle act. You can't bum out everyone before the headliner comes up. So I was like, well, I can't do this material all the time. And then I just started working towards making it a recording, and I was just gonna record it like a regular special. And then the pandemic happened, and I just was like, I'll do this interesting, weird editing stuff. And. And then that came out, and it was cool. So that's. That. That's how I got in. That's how that. The grieving productively thing happened.

[B]

Question for you. Did you. Do you think, like, with that. With jokes about your dad and stuff, do you ever still work that into your stuff, or did you make a specific space for that kind of humor?

[C]

So, like, I'll still work it in if it's, like. If I feel like doing it. But it's just like, when you. So did that 40 minutes of material, I worked out over the course of, like, the year after he passed. And at a certain point, I was just, like, burnt out from doing it because it's just like, all right, this is. At a certain point, it's just making myself relive trauma in front of people. But then there's times where I feel like doing them, because I do think a lot of the jokes in it are, like, really fucking good. So I was like. So I do, like. Like, last night I did a couple just because it was like. Because I mentioned that my dad was dead and people pulled back, and I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna do a couple jokes, but. But generally, no, I haven't really done a lot of that since that. Since that came out in, like, October. So.

[A]

Gotcha when you did the sets, like when he was diagnosed and when he died. Like that. Those exact days, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, were you going into it? Kind of like, I should do this or like, kind of. I have to like. It was like catharsis.

[C]

I just wanted to be near my friends and all my friends do comed and it was like so like he got. When he got diagnosed. I like cried at work when I found out because it was like I was working. So I couldn't go to the meeting where the doctor like had the test results or whatever, but my mom and brother were there. So I called my brother and he was like, you should probably sit down. And it was like all the kids were gone from. From work and I just. Was like. Just started crying. And then like, my friends at work were like, oh my God. Because they got. They understood when you. They know your dad's in the hospital and then they just see you crying the next day. They're like, this isn't great.

[B]

Two and two together.

[C]

Yeah. And also like one of my co workers. Dads also died the same week my dad died.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Nathan Bemis, the improviser. Yeah. We worked together in the same program and his dad basically dropped dead when his mom was with him on vacation. Like several, like, right when my dad got diagnosed. Yeah, it was kind of. It was kind of insane how close it was. But then like I came. Oh, yeah. And then I. But I wanted to be around my friends. So the night was diagnosed, I went and I just had some ideas of stuff and I just kind of wanted to vent and just like. Because it just seemed really ridiculous to me that this was happening. And so I did that and I got an okay response. And then when he passed away, it was like, I. I need to be around. So he passed away at like 2 or 3am on a Tuesday morning. So like, Monday night. Tuesday morning. And then I did fall out that Tuesday night.

[A]

You did fall out?

[C]

Yeah. And I went and I did like 10, and Jesse Jarvis was hosting. He just let me do as much time as I wanted. So I did like 10 to 12 minutes of just like that stuff. And then I had a dude come up to me that was like, hey, man, my dad died like a year ago. And he was like, that shit was awesome. And just hearing that made me realize, like, okay, this isn't just. I should probably, you know, just hearing someone else be like, that was cool. And that was helpful. Like, made me feel better. And it just. It was. I feel like my dad's death was Senseless. And it didn't make any fucking sense to me at all. And I was like, okay, I can give purpose to this and, like, help people. And that's another reason that Amber and I, like, we just grew, like, closer. She's one, like, one of my best friends. And that's why we kind of decided to do the podcast and the house show and stuff as well.

[A]

You get a lot of people DMing you things like that with the podcast.

[C]

Some, I think, because Amber runs the. The Instagram thing. I think she gets more dms for it. But, like, when the special came out, I did get, like, I messaged you. A lot of people.

[A]

We had, like, never talked.

[B]

Yeah. It's so interesting that you say all that because I had a very parallel experience. My mom actually died of cancer when I was 15, so. But I was nine when she was diagnosed, so I was like, larping outside with my friends when I found it. Like, it's just so interesting to hear

[C]

that that was a universe you're from. Literally, like, you have high elf energy.

[B]

I remember, like, like, literally lightsabers were clashing, and then I saw my parents pull into the driveway and I was like, something's off about this energy. Anyways, it's just, like, interesting to me

[C]

to hear something was wrong with the Force. There was a disturbance.

[B]

There was a stage four disturbance in

[A]

the Force, and it was terminal.

[B]

Yeah. But it's like, I don't know. It's interesting to hear you and Amber especially talk about it because, like, how old were you when your dad was diagnosed?

[C]

What am I now? I'm 30, and he was diagnosed 28. I was almost 25.

[B]

Yeah. I just, like, wonder how it had been, like, at a different timeline of my life because, like, I kind of wish that I. I was 15 when my mom died, so I also wanted to be near my friends, but that meant joining the cross country team, so I did that for a year. I didn't.

[C]

People are like, you can't run away from your problem.

[B]

I can do a 5K in 21 minutes.

[C]

Yeah. Your life was a freeform movie, truly.

[B]

So, like, I guess it's, like, cool that you. Your thing was, like, just jokes, like, from the get go. Because I think that would have been if I had the awareness and the frontal lobe development to do that. I would have.

[C]

But it's just like, the whole death is just so fucking insane to me, and it's ridiculous. And there's a whole industry around death, which is nuts that it's like, you can Death is like a for profit industry in America, for sure. And I understand why. Like, I get like, it's. And it's easy to come and like, I'm not saying they'll manipulate people, but it's easy to come in and manipulate because it's just like there's someone that's willing for a lot of money to handle everything and not make you have to fucking deal with it. And it's like, that's awesome. Like, that's a good use of money. Yeah, but it's so expensive.

[B]

One of my most vivid memories is like touring a funeral home. And we're like, this, where she's going to be buried forever. And there was a Popeyes right across the. You could like see it in the horizon. My sister was like, we are not

[C]

burying her Popeyes near a goddamn Popeyes. But I've always dealt with like shit like that, with humor and just like, I don't know, I just think stuff's funny and I think really fucked up shit is really funny. And it just helps me deal with it. And I know that that's not for everybody. Like, I get that that's not how everybody greaves. But there's a lot of people that think that shit's fucking funny. And it's just like, I can't believe this.

[B]

So, like, for your podcast, Dead Dead Dodd.

[C]

Dead Dog Comedy Pood. Yeah, Dead Dog Comedy pad.

[B]

Productively.

[C]

Yeah, productively this week.

[B]

I like when you guys have comics come on and you've had like, not local comments, like people from everywhere come on. Like, do you put out like a help wanted, like prerequisite Dead Parent comic must have dead. So I put, how do you find people?

[C]

So like, a lot of it is posting in like online comedy groups and being like, hey, if you're interested and you've lost somebody and it's like. And we don't just try to do parents. We do try to do like other things. Yeah. Other. Other people. And I'm like, just DM me with it. And then like, yeah, that was nurse.

[B]

Yeah, that's.

[C]

And then just like going through and being like, is this a. Are you a good fit? Has enough time passed? Are you comfortable talking about this thing? Because I don't want to have someone on. They're not comfortable about talking about it to the point that I feel like I can't make jokes about it because it's like, fuck that. I don't know. I think some of the heart. Some of the times I have laughed the hardest has been like, on that show where someone is so close to crying, and then we do something, and I just said something truly fucked up. And Amber's just like, oh, no. Which is my favorite dynamic. Feel like she's constantly reeling me in. There's a couple times where she's messaged me, been like, you gotta cut that out. And I was like, all right, I'll cut that one. I'll cut that one out. You can't make that. Make that joke. But, yeah, I like it. But it's definitely, like a. Definitely a help wanted thing. And then, like, reaching out. But it's also, like, it helps to do it as a help wanted thing because it feels very manipulative. And reach out, to reach out to someone, honestly, be like, hey, can you help me make content? And it's like.

[A]

And you have no idea where they're coming from.

[B]

Line to walk.

[C]

Yeah. And when I send people messages about it, I'm always like, hey, very sorry for your loss. I'm sorry that that happened. If you need anything, let me know. And then, like, if I feel like they're at a point, just be like, hey, it's like, I respect you a lot as a person. I would love to hear about your journey when you're ready to talk about it, and please reach out to me. And I've had, you know, that that's Feels like the best way to do it. But putting it out there and letting people come to me.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Unless it's a guest that I really, really want on the show. And then I will do that. But, yeah, you just don't want to be like, hey, hey, I want to

[B]

be on my podcast.

[A]

Write that copy.

[C]

Yeah. Do you want to be on my. You know, it's a. It's a. It's a pretty good podcast. You know, it's very subtle. It's called Dead dad comedy.

[A]

I heard you had a dead dad.

[C]

Yeah, through the grapevine.

[B]

Yeah, I.

[A]

But I think it's, like, a really nice resource because I feel like there's probably a ton of people out there that have had, you know.

[C]

Yeah. Eventually most people's dads died.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I make everyone's like, what are you talking about, guys? Your parents are gonna die.

[C]

They're gonna die.

[A]

Especially at our age.

[C]

I didn't realize until it happened. And I was like, holy shit, he's gonna live.

[B]

And you're like, oh, wait, this is kind of.

[C]

Well, I would, like, think about. I would think about the math in my head because I'm terrified of death. And, like, my dad was a Hypochondriac. He was terrified of dying. Like, literally getting cancer and dying was my father's worst nightmare. It is literally the exact screams came. Yeah, for real. It is literally. This is manifesting his worst fucking nightmare. So I was just always someone that would just be, like, doing the math in my head. I'm like, okay, my dad's 65. My grand. His dad died at 87. I was like, so feasibly. I've got, like, 15 years left with my dad. So I'd be like, so I've been

[A]

doing that math recently. I literally cried yesterday morning about that.

[C]

It's like doing the math and then you turn it in and you missed a step, and they're like, no, this is tomorrow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You actually did not carry the one. And they're actually already dead.

[C]

This is why you have to show your work, Winston. It's like, Common Core sucks. It's not all math is supposed to be.

[B]

Do you find yourself, like, now that you have one living parent, like, really freaking out about that? Like.

[C]

Well, it wasn't until now. No, I think about it all the time. I don't know. I do think about it. Just try to enjoy the time I have with my mom. Family's, like, really important.

[B]

It literally sounds like we're about to put it.

[C]

We don't know.

[A]

You don't.

[C]

You don't ever know. It's a pandemic. It's like she's just turned 62. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you. Yeah, you don't know what's gonna happen. So. Yeah, I think about it, but I try to, like. Like, just enjoy it and hang out and just put it to the back.

[A]

I heard a very stressful. I guess not statistic, but someone on Tick Tock was saying, like, if you're.

[C]

Yeah, that's not a statistic. As far from. I was reading this literary journal on Tick Tock.

[A]

I will tell. I will tell Mary something. I'm like. So I read this article. Well, actually, it was a video about. Well, it was a Tick Tock about a video about an article. But someone was saying, like, this guy was such an. He was like, just remember, like, if you don't live in the same town as your parents, if you visit them for Christmas, in Easter for 10 years, you're only seeing them 20 more times. I was like, mother.

[B]

Or I saw one recently that was like, can you remember the names of your great, great grandparents? And, like, if you can't, you literally only live. Exists for two generations before your kids Forgotten Y.

[A]

But it is. Yeah.

[B]

Something.

[C]

It's very calming to actually. It is very much.

[A]

But that's some. A reality you had to come to terms with at 15, which is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Crazy. I know.

[B]

Out there running miles, outdoors, doing sprints.

[A]

Mary and I were talking, I think, like, on the. I don't know if we actually released. We recorded so many practice rounds before we actually posted an episode. So I think this.

[B]

People are gonna be like, you practice before.

[A]

Unfortunately, there were rougher versions, but Mary was talking about, like, and I want to know if this has happened to you, where people are like, they'll bring up dads in general, and then they, like, clamor. They'll be like, oh, my God, you know, like, bringing up fatherhood in front of you.

[C]

Not so much. They'll bring it. Like, I don't really have people bring it up and then clam up. I have people bring it up, and then I just make them feel bad. That's really funny to me. Yeah, it's very funny. And, I mean, we had an episode of an episode of the Winsmas Games, and I'm not gonna say what episode it was, but we had one where, like, somebody made a reference to a dad in the thing, and then I was just like, oh, my God, that's so. Like, I was making a joke about it. And then they got very angry at me on the podcast. I think the episode. The episode's out there where it's like, they're mad at me. They're like, I can do whatever.

[B]

How many episodes of Winsman's Games are there?

[C]

Maybe 60.

[B]

Okay, I'll listen to all.

[C]

I'll tell you. I'll tell you guys what it is after the show. But it was like. It was like a whole thing to the point where, like, at the end of the episode, I had to be like, what's going on? Like, on the thing. I'm like, what's happening? I was like, this is my show, and I don't feel comfortable on my show. And it's like, like, what the fuck is going on? And they apologized afterwards and were. And were fine, but they were like, they're also going through something. Like, I think in the moment, they're going through something. And they were basically just like, you don't get to make me feel guilty. And it's like. It's like, this is a comedy. Yeah. And like. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was interesting.

[B]

People react in ways that you would not expect sometimes.

[C]

Yeah. And it's awesome. In the moment, I was very like, what the is happening.

[A]

I appreciate your ability, like, and even just not in terms of talking about, like dead dads and stuff like that, but your ability to just like, call out the general air of like. Yeah, it's like when you're ha. Like if just the. The vibe is off of a crowd or something, sometimes if you address it, the.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The tension, like, deflates. Sometimes it escalates.

[C]

Yeah, sometimes it escalates. But if it's going to escalate, that crowd was never going to be good.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And I don't. I'm gonna take them down with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love that.

[C]

Yeah. You're never going to forget the spinny finger.

[A]

So scary. We address it in every episode. He tries to reign us in.

[C]

Wrap it up.

[A]

It's so scary.

[C]

Enough, dad. Yeah, we'll move on. No one cares.

[A]

One thing I want to ask you before we, like, move on to big question stuff, it'll kind of. Everything's about comedy, so it's pretty.

[C]

Wendy's is going to have a strawberry frosty. Are you excited? What would your dad have thought about a strawberry frosty? And I was, you know, doing the studies on the Tick Tock and yeah, people were pretty excited.

[B]

It was on the TikTok.

[A]

But I wanted to ask you just in general, like, when you. Since you've been doing it for six years and you've seen and you go to so many open mics and so many shows, like you do like two shows a night.

[C]

Yeah. What's up's going on? Yeah.

[A]

You know, pre pandemic and stuff. Like when you see someone new or a friend even, like, how do you gauge, like, if you think they're a good comedian or not? Because we talked a little bit off pod. That bombing is not a very good, like, indicator of whether someone is very

[C]

good or have you ever watched a movie you really liked with people that didn't like the movie?

[B]

That's a great.

[C]

We talked about that before you. So to me it's like if I see someone that's new, very rarely am I going to be like, oh, this person. Person's great because you're not good when you start comedy. Everyone sucks. When they start. That's okay. But if, like, I hear you and it's like you've got some positives going and you're a nice person, I will generally cheer for you. Cheer for you. And I'll go up to you and be like, hey, just want to let you know that joke. I think the reason that it's not working the way you want it to is because of this. And then it's the next time I see you, if you have taken that note and at least tried it, like, told me, like, oh, I tried. It didn't work. Yeah, I'm gonna fuck with you forever. Like, it's just, like, I'm gonna just. You. You heard a note, and it didn't make you feel shitty. And it's, like, made me feel respected that you at least listened, and I'm willing to do that. And then seeing a comic that's new or, like, a comic that's new to me, so someone that's been doing it a while, even if the audience doesn't like them, I can kind of pick up. Just, like, I like that. Like, they're a good writer or they're a good performer, and their writing will catch up.

[A]

Do you notice potential in someone based off of, like, the topics they choose to talk about or, like, the way they present it? I just like how prepared they seem,

[C]

just how hacky it is. So it's like, I. I don't really care about hacky topics. People are like, oh, like, all guys talk about is. Is online dating and their dicks. And I'm like, yeah, and all women talk about is their. And periods. But that's like. Because it's what you know, and it's like, I'm never gonna. I'm not gonna begrudge a female comic for talking about sex or their fucking vagina or like. Or whatever. Like, that's your experience. My thing is, like, are the way that you're talking about those things. Is it something I've heard seven or eight different comics say before?

[B]

Right.

[C]

So I'm much more. Less about, like, what your grandiose topics are and more about, like, do you have a unique perspective on these things?

[A]

I love when someone comes with, like, a hacky premise, and then I think that's challenging.

[B]

I mean, what is the thing? It's like, there are only, like, love songs and breakup songs. It's just like, yeah, yeah. There's so many different ways to present it.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. But that's kind of how I am. And then I can just. If I hear something, I'm like. But it is a lot. Like, you watch a movie you really love with people that don't like it, and you're just kind of like, why don't people like this?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, this is great. I, like, really enjoy this movie, but that's how I view it. Cool.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

I felt like that was a way to Wrap it up. You know, before we got another finger lodged deep inside of us. We don't understand that the fingers are in us. They're not even.

[A]

That's why I sound when I see a.

[C]

It's a big rotation of the wrap it up signal. One single. I can't take it. Right. It's a lot.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

All the knuckles. We're in there. We're in there.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Feel like a Fitbit. So we were talking about your use of the N word, Tina.

[B]

That's a big question.

[A]

I said Nigeria. You know what? Yeah. No, I'm kidding. I'm not doubling down.

[C]

Yes. Take the red pill.

[A]

I only take Snack Factory Pretzel crisp.

[C]

It's the red bag. You take the red bag of the pretzel crisp.

[A]

Damn. I didn't think this through.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

I to be okay, but for the big question. The big question today, Right. I was very intrigued when you and I did standup show last week. No, two weeks ago.

[C]

That wasn't two weeks ago. It was literally this week ago.

[A]

That was last week.

[C]

That was like, seven, eight days ago, maybe.

[A]

Good Lord.

[C]

It was eight days ago.

[B]

It's going to be published.

[A]

Like, six weeks in the Ether yet. But anyway, you were saying. Because, like, I was.

[C]

We did that show when you were still alive.

[A]

I was clearly, like, very much the newbie, like, inexperience. I haven't done a show since November and then before that, March. But you've been doing it for six years and then continue through the pandemic. Yeah, but then you said you were, like, super nervous.

[C]

Yeah, I'm terrified.

[A]

And I was. Well. And that was. It was so surprising to me because, one, any time I see you at a show, you do not show it. Like, you seem very calm and collective.

[C]

Muscle relaxants. Yeah, that's purely what.

[B]

That's when you couldn't remember.

[C]

That's purely what it is.

[A]

I should save mine for my period cramps. For the show. Yeah, but then you also said that, like, you have, like, imposter syndrome, which, again, I never would have thought.

[C]

Yeah, I did agree to talk about this.

[B]

Yeah, you're like, when did I say all this? Yeah, agree.

[C]

That is how I finagled my way onto this female podcast.

[A]

By big question, we mean invasive.

[B]

The Fawn cast.

[A]

Yeah, but I wanted to ask you just, like, about your, like, journey with imposter syndrome. Like, do you think it could ever go away from you or for anyone?

[C]

It'll never go away.

[A]

You don't think you could ever, like, actively Work on it to get rid of it.

[C]

But what do you. What work do you do on it? Like what? But like, what? Like, but, yeah. So the grand question is, what work can you do making on feeling like you're fake and not real? I can't think of. Like, to me, the only time I don't feel that is when other people are telling me this. So I can't.

[B]

But you did make the decision to go full time comedy.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't make the decision. I did make that, but I didn't make that. But I didn't make that decision.

[B]

But I didn't blink twice.

[C]

I didn't make that decision because I thought I was so good at comedy. I made that decision because I'm 30 years old and if I don't make that decision.

[B]

You were doing the math.

[C]

I was. I was making just enough money doing comedy to where I was at this tipping point of, like, the gigs I were giving up almost matched the money I was making teaching. And so I was like, all right, well, like, if I'm gonna give it a shot, I don't want to give it a shot at, like 35 or 36. Just might as well try it at 30, because now if it doesn't work out, I'm gonna give myself till 35. And if it doesn't work out to 35, to where I'm like, at least at a. I'm making ends meet and I'm not worried about money. Like, at 35, I'm just gonna go back to teaching and be fine.

[A]

Yeah. So, but like, when you have bouts of it, like, the doubt in your talent or like, imposter syndrome, however you want to say it, like, is it usually time wise, like, right before a show or, like, right after or right after a show? Right after. Okay. And is it conducive to the quality of set you have?

[C]

Like, no, because I can have, like, a great set and, like, really kill really hard. And then the only thing I can think about, literally the only thing I think about on the ride home is just be like. Like, was the crowd just that good? Like, were my jokes hacky? Like, that type of thing where it's just like, I just. My imposter syndrome is mostly, like, I get that I make people laugh. Like, I do understand that. But it's like, but am I the type of comic that is respected, or am I the type of comedian that is not respected by other comics? But I do well, like, am I hacked? Like, that's what my imposter syndrome manifests like, am I a hack? Is that why I'm doing well? Not because I'm a good comedian, but because I'm talking about things. Yeah, just cheap shit. And it's just like. Is that what it is?

[A]

And that's interesting. Yeah, I think that's how I feel. I'm always. I always like, worry. I'm like, oh, well, they were just really drunk, so they were like super quick to just laugh because it's like cheap laughs because they're all wasted right now. And then I'm like, oh, God, this is going to be a bad show. Because everyone's very sober.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's usually a point of contention for me.

[C]

Is yours ever, like. So I can't think of another way to explain other than like manic depression. Like, do you go back and. Because mine is like, I will feel like an imposter sometimes. Like half the time, and then literally the other half the time. Complex is just. Yeah, it's literally just like, this was the set. Like, this is the one where I break through. I have faith in myself and then something happens or like, I just feel guilt about mine also just comes a lot from just like, I just will feel guilty about stuff that I've done in my past. Like either just like not being the best boyfriend or just like kind of being a dick to somebody. Yeah. Do I. Do I deserve this thing? And then I just have to remind myself, like, oh, yeah. Like it's. Everybody fucks up, everybody does not great things. As long as you're not doing horrific, horrendous things, it's okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so that's kind of where my balance is, is just a lot of like religious guilt and a lot of just personal guilt. Because, like, part of the wanting to better yourself thing is self reflection on. Like, okay, like, I probably could have talked nicer to this person or like, I could have not been a dick. I couldn't have been such a big dick when this relationship didn't work out. Or I could have not ghosted this, but you know what I mean? Or like, type of things that aren't

[B]

necessarily all the time. Yeah.

[C]

You know, I mean, like things where it's not necessarily. It's not necessarily evil or super wrong to do that, but at the same time, it's like, I know that it would hurt me and it has hurt me when that's. When that's happened. So just that type of thing and that balance of just trying to be a better person. Oh, yeah.

[B]

You view yourself as a comedian. Like, you're like, relationships and exes and things like that. Yeah, that's pretty interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I wish I was a sociopath who did not care about what I've done in the past.

[A]

Well, it's funny because we were. I can't remember, too, if we were recording when we were having this conversation or just. Just a normal friend conversation, but we were. I was saying how I was having a recent revelation because we have a friend that kind of always thinks that she's a bad person and that there's very much a, like, polar. Like, either you are a good person or a bad person. And I kind of always thought I was, like, a good person, so that if I ever did, like, bad things, I was like. I was like, oh, well, I'm like, you know, a good person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Too bad.

[C]

Well, that's how I, like, make myself feel better, is being like, yeah, I've done bad things.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just like everyone's done bad things. But I taught at a school for autism for four years, making almost no money. I try to help people in comedy. I try not to be a weirdo, creep, piece of. You know what I mean? Like, I try to treat people better. I try not.

[B]

You act badly, but you're not a bad actor.

[C]

And it's just like. Yeah, exactly. So it's just like.

[A]

That was really fun. Freeing was like, knowing that no person has a such a dichotomy of a moral compass. Like. Like, you can think that you're acting in good faith, and then someone is like, you affect me in a very bad way.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like. Like, one time, I pretty much, like, ghosted this guy, thinking that I was like. I rationalized it to myself being like, oh, like, he didn't even really care that we were hooking up. Like, it's fine. And then I realized I was like.

[C]

And she realized she ruined my life. And.

[A]

And I'm coming here to.

[C]

That's what this is right now.

[B]

I killed your dad.

[C]

Yeah, she killed my father.

[A]

But, yeah, I was like, dang. I didn't realize that that might have, like, you know, tasted sour in his mouth. And he might, like, think of me.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And then I was like, oh, my God, does he just, like, think of me flat out like a bad person now? But that's like, you know, you can't control things.

[C]

You can't control that. And that's kind of the thing that I'm at, because I definitely know that there are, like, women out there that I've gone on dates with, and I've either Ghosted or been like, hey, I'm not really interested in seeing you or dating or something like that. And then getting in a relationship with someone, you know what I mean? Like that type of thing where it's just like that person might not really like me, but I also realized that there's people that have done that to me. And as I've grown and whatever, it's like, okay, it's I don't hate them. Like it's like, it's whatever. It's like it's once that I don't know and once those people find their happiness. And always, whenever I talk big stuff like this, I'm always just openly apologize. I am sorry.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

If I've ever wronged you because I do feel bad about it. The things that people out there have never thought about another day in their life just know I think about it every waking moment. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean that's a big anxiety is thinking for other people instead of just like letting them think for themselves.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe they don't, you know, hate my guts because we went on one date and I didn't.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

We're just like.

[C]

Yeah, it was just always like, like, I don't know, we're just like the day was like weird and uncomfortable because we didn't agree on things either politically or just like what, you know what I mean? Just shit like that. And then I've also realized like, oh, I'm 30 years old and it's like I'm not even, you know, in a perfect world. I'm not even middle aged. So it's like I've got a lot of time to just continue to grow and be a better person and just like, like I fucking grew up going to high school in Farmville, Virginia. So I grew up like a young Republican guy. And then it was like. And then you fucking meet people who aren't that and you're like, oh yeah, these, this is reasonable. And you just grow and change and like, I don't know. So that's kind of where I'm at is just on this internal apology tour where I just am and you know, that's where religion like helps me is. I do pray about it all the time.

[A]

Just.

[C]

Yeah, I'm sorry. Help me be a better person. We all make mistakes and just trying to make sure the good outweighs the bad and you're not doing anything fucking horrendous like murdering

[A]

good faith as much as you can, you know. But like back to comedy, something that was really interesting to me Was that you said that is somewhat. Like, I was like, oh. And like, I've been told by other people that. That you're very good. Like, you have a good reputation that precedes you. And then you're like, well, you just saying that. I'm like, immediately like, oh, she's lying.

[C]

Yeah, well, my whole thing is like, what are you trying to get out of me? Like, why are you lying?

[A]

Right? Like, you're very skeptical, which is interesting because I'm kind of opposite, where if someone says, I do good, a good job, I'm like, oh, my God, thank

[B]

God I have passionate. I don't eat that well.

[A]

It makes external validation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Like, if I get external validation from an audience or like, audience members after shows usually help. My friends will help because, like, I try to make sure I have a few friends that are like, we are like, hey, we're just gonna be honest with each other. Like, I can't have all my friends just be completely honest with me. That's a miserable. You need a few friends to gas you up. And you need a few friends to be like, hey, this is like, we should talk. I want you to.

[A]

Designated people. You go to.

[C]

Yeah, I got a designated group chat for that type of thing. Just a group chat that I can be like, a fucking bombed. And then we'll talk about it and stuff like that. But yeah, so it's like. And it's not so much, oh, what is this person trying to get out of me. It's just that, like, I. From teaching and working with children, there were a lot of times where I had to sugarcoat things. And my whole thing is just like, oh, maybe this person just views me as, like a child who is very upset. And it's like this sugarcoating in the moment. Although it's not exactly the truth. Like, I don't want this person to be upset. So it's like, my thing's like, why are you doing this kind thing to me? But it depends. Sometimes it does that and sometimes it.

[A]

It.

[C]

It doesn't. It just depends on how bad the imposter syndrome.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

Is going on.

[A]

And then I also wanted to ask you because, like, something Mary and I have talked about is with comedy, I'm kind of struggling with the, like, moving goal post. Like, I'm worried just now getting into it that I will never feel, like, satiated or, like.

[C]

And you won't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so how's it with comics?

[A]

Like, yeah, I feel like you'll never.

[C]

I think that's a thing for everything. Like, I think that, like, if you're working in a company and you're the vice president and you're just like, I could be the president. You know what I mean? Or, like, I could be the CEO, it's always the next big thing. And I think that's just a big product of capitalism and just. Just in general, because it's like you. I mean, like, I want to be the best at stand up. Like, that's the internal goal, which is like, I want to be as good as I can humanly possibly be. It helps me to have friends who are lower than me in comedy. And not lower like worst comics, but just like, I like having friends that when I tell them this thing that I'm doing, they're like, man, that's awesome. I can't wait to get to that point. So, like, having friends where your career is their goal post, and then also having friends where their career is your goalpost.

[A]

Like a diverse group.

[C]

Just like a diverse group. So it's like a perfect example is like, one of my best friends is Chris Allen, and he's like Mark Norman's opener, and he goes on the road and he just recorded like, an album thing for Helium Records and all this stuff. And he's like, the best comic that I know, but it's like, so he can share these things with me. And because I'm good friends with him, I'm like, oh, that's within reach. I can get that. And like, when your goal posts are within reach, it's less about not feeling satiated and more like, I'll get that eventually. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like, oh, if I didn't have friends. And then having the friends who are look at me that way, it's like, hey, man, I just, like, I get to host at this club next weekend. And they're like, oh, man, you're hosting at a comedy club and just that type of gas. So that's, like, helped me because I do move the goalposts where I'm like, what's the next thing? And. And having someone like Chris, when I'm talking like that, to be like, hey, man. He's like, it took me this long to get to that. You'll get there. Just don't worry about what else is going on and just focus on doing you and getting better at comedy.

[A]

How much do you like? Because I always do this thing where if I find someone success, like, if I find a new standup that I really like, I immediately look up how old they are.

[C]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[A]

And then if they're younger than me,

[B]

I'm like, I know.

[C]

Yeah. That's insane. I had to quit doing that because

[A]

I was just like, yeah, I have to, like. Because, yeah, I'll look up, like, their stats. Like, I'll find their website. I'll try to find, like, their credits. Like, if they have, like.

[B]

Yeah, I watched that movie. Is it Shiva baby? Is that how you say it?

[A]

Shiva baby?

[B]

Yeah, it was good. And then the director is 24.

[A]

No, I know when Rachel said it's in it, and she's like, all right, yeah. Oh, that hurts.

[C]

But do you ever do the reverse, though? Do you have. Because that's what I have to do. I have to balance it out and look at comics that didn't break into whatever. Like, whether. I'm not gonna say what he did was okay, but Louis CK didn't break till he was 46.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So it's like, that's helpful that it's a type of thing where it's like, he was just stirring and anonymity and just, like, not doing great and just doing the same 30 to 45 minutes

[A]

and then learning for years, the LCD sound system, like, front guy didn't start till he was, like, 45. Yeah. I was like, like, we're gonna be

[B]

on this podcast and be like, yeah,

[C]

everything that comes out, you're like, she's. Oh, my. She's 67. Like, I gotta be like, I can't

[A]

believe I'm still young.

[C]

Yeah, but you just see, like, all. There's, like, a ton of. Of comics like that, like, that won't get their break until late 30s or early 40s.

[B]

So just like, you said that you're gonna give yourself until 35 of trying it full time. Trying it full time. What for you, when you turn 36 is like, yes, I'm gonna keep going. Like, what's a break for you?

[C]

I have to be very fucking close to just making it. Like. Like, I want if at 36, I am at a point where I'm not like, oh, God, I'm gonna have to get a side gig. You know what I mean? Like, that type of thing. Like, if I'm on the. You know, it would suck to not have TV credits. It would suck to not be on something. But, like, I think a TV credit would definitely help. It would make me be like, all right, I'm on the right track.

[A]

Like, it's like, what do people mean by TV credits? Because I hear that all the time.

[C]

Now, like a late night set or you're on a Comedy Central show. Just anything where your credit is like, this person's been on and it's not a different comedy club or it's not a festival.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because, like. Because I'm at the point now where, like, all my credits are, I've opened for this person or I've been in this festival or I've worked these clubs, but it would be night. But it's just like getting to the point where it's like, you might have seen this guy on Conan the Daily show and Netflix. And it's like, okay, those are the tell. Those are televised credits to where someone who doesn't really know anything about comedy can see a poster and be like, this person was good. We should.

[A]

I guess that is a big indicator is like, when people outside of very niche scene.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can recognize the. Those goal posts.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, how do you feel about people that are going. Because you have a Tick Tock. How do you feel about the people that are, like, blowing up on TikTok and stuff?

[C]

That's fine. They can do it. It's very.

[B]

They can do it.

[C]

It's different because I. Because I was pissed when vine was a thing because, like, vine comics started headlining comedy clubs and they did. Didn't have a act. So it was like. But now I'm at the point where I'm just like, okay, if these people who aren't talented can get a bunch of followers on TikTok, it's like, maybe I can build a small following on Tick Tock.

[A]

And how is your tick Tock journey been?

[C]

It's good. I like it. I mean, like, I've been doing it for a few months and I know it's not like a huge jump, but I went from like 100 followers that were my friends to like, I'm almost at 4,000 now. Yeah, yeah. And just growing and just wanting to get to, like, and just trying to see, like, oh, will I have one that, like, every week or so I'll have something that goes viral to me. So like 80,000 to 200,000 views and just like, trying to be like, yeah,

[A]

like, okay, let me get around the world.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. But, like, I want to get to this point and it's fun. I like it. It's a. It's a different thing to do. It's a place for me to try out.

[A]

I was gonna do test stuff out.

[C]

I just do jokes on there. That's all it is. It's all bits and, like, I did a series of stand up, stand up 101 things where it was me doing stand up and it was just really bad stand up advice, which was really fun, but stuff like that. And I'll try to do other silly stuff and just making sure I post a couple times a day. But it's fun. I like it.

[B]

Do you feel burnt? Like, content burnt out ever? Like, because I guess with that TikTok, that's a lot. But, like, even with stand up, like, of writing jokes, I just feel like sometimes my brain will not.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Anything.

[C]

Yeah. But I just do so much fucking crowd work that it doesn't, like, matter. That's like, like. So it'll just be like, last night I did, like a 45 minute set and I would say 38 minutes of was crowd work. And I just did seven minutes of jokes and just being able to be like, all right, well, I don't really feel like doing my material tonight. Like, these people are kind of. They're liking the interaction and then just doing. Doing that. And then, like, if I. It also helps because it's like, I get a lot of material from crowd work by asking these weird questions and people responding back that it helps. Yeah, it helps jumpstart me if I'm. If I'm in the middle of writer's block. And then, like, I've got, like, two or three things I haven't tried out yet that I'm excited to try out because I've thought of them and was just like, well, these aren't ready to try yet. So I'll just do crowd work for like two or three shows in a row and then. And switch to my bits.

[A]

When you're writing a joke, like, do you. Have you gotten good at knowing, like, if you think something will work or not? Because Mary and I have said, like, when we're writing something, we cannot tell if it will land. And I know that's like, what open mics are for, but can you kind of like, have you harnessed the skill of knowing if something's gonna do well

[C]

or not before I'm at a point where I can at least be like, I can make this idea sound like me. And then like, Like, I have a bit that I wrote the first six months I did stand up and I couldn't get it to work, but I was like, this is a funny idea. I'm not a good enough comic yet. And so it's like, I'm at a point where, like, I know whether or not an idea is funny. It's Just am I good enough to make it work? So I have like a bit about Monopoly and then I was just doing it as like a one liner thing. And then a year later I came back to it and I turned it into like this four minute act out of how Monopoly was created. And I really liked that bit. But it was purely because like I did, I took the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And was like, oh, I'm better at this now. Like, I can figure, figure this stuff out.

[A]

Interesting. Okay, cool. How do you like determine when it's time to revisit something or when it's time to like, you're like, it's killed.

[C]

Every, every like three to six months I'll just go back through. So like I. Every set list I've ever written out, I have.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I've never thrown anything away. I haven't done any of my notebooks away. And I'll just go back and look through old set lists and be like, oh, yeah, I was working on that joke. I don't know why. Because you'll be working on something at a mic and then you'll have six or seven shows in a row where you can't work on something new because it's like either paid. And then I just forget that that was a thing that I was working on. Yeah. And then I'll come back to be like, oh yeah, I want to do this. Or like, or bits that are like, I've got like an album. I released like the second, like in my second year of stand up. And I'll go back and listen to that and just be like, oh, I can make this joke way better and just, and just change that and stuff like that. It all, it all depends.

[A]

Interesting. And how do you, like now I'm just like asking you for advice.

[C]

How do you wr.

[B]

Actually set up now?

[C]

You don't need to take another one on one.

[A]

Classic question for sure. But how do you do stand up? Take 30 minutes to answer. I'm writing notes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm literally recording. But like, how do you know when you. It's. You're ready to like add more time? Because you've done multiple like 30 minutes before you've done an hour.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you ever, has anyone ever done more than an hour?

[B]

I think it'd be so spoken for an hour straight.

[C]

I've done. The longest that I've done is 90 minutes. And where was that? It was a house show in Roanoke when I was trying to record my album and I was just. And I wasn't super happy with it. Because I like. I kind of. It's one of the four times that I got intoxicated before performing, and.

[A]

One of the four times.

[C]

Yeah, I've only done it four times. I did it once. Did really well. And then the second time, I bombed, and I was like, well, we don't know which of the two. This. We don't know what. We have to figure out what it was. And then the third one was just right in the middle. And then there was just a fourth time where I was, like, celebrating something, and it was like, it wasn't a set that mattered. But I don't really like to. I don't really drink anymore anyway. But I don't like to drink before.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Drink before shows.

[A]

I like a good gin and ginger ale before I go.

[C]

Oh, I know.

[A]

I like a watered down.

[C]

I like that. You think that the blackout was. Was from performing.

[B]

From nerves.

[C]

I think I literally blackout every time I drive.

[B]

And I. You know, it's crazy.

[C]

I get behind the wheel and I close my eyes, and then I just get home.

[A]

This is so bad. But, like, when I was doing the 101 class at Coalition, like, my first stand, that is period, full stop.

[C]

It's a joke. All my friends teach those.

[A]

So Tom hall said, like, part of the class is, like, all right, like, before we do the showcase, I really want you all to at least do, like, one open mic around. So I went with, like, like, five people from our class. Same one.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I was terrified. Hence, what comes next? So, like, five people from our class went. Taylor, our ta went. And we were all sitting at a table, and I was just downing, like, the highest IPA alcohol content.

[C]

Were you?

[A]

I was at the Camel.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the Camels.

[C]

That's also a mic. That's at 5pm yeah.

[A]

Sun Stark. Oh, that was the other thing. Like, whoever's performing is right up against the.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The lighting's horrendous, and so the light is beaming in. So it's just a silhouette.

[B]

Changing room of a venue.

[A]

First of all, it's just the silhouette of the person. Like, no one could probably see.

[C]

Yeah. There's no lighting. If there's no lighting on your face,

[A]

which is also lighting the crowd. Like, you want the opposite. You want the light to be on.

[B]

You see, I thought it was, like, shining on your back.

[C]

It's literally like, you can't see my face because it's a shadow.

[B]

So you have to, like, unlock you. Like, Like a Mario Kart.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

But you. It is question mark on you.

[A]

But you can see everyone else's expression.

[C]

And I'm like, quit doing your Italian joke. Stop.

[B]

That one's dead stopping.

[C]

Stop workshopping it.

[A]

I've unlocked. But, yeah, so I was blackout. I was literally, like, silhouetted black. And then also the mic there, at least when I was doing it was so, like, blown out. Like.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You couldn't hear. So I was. I have no idea what I said, but I walked off.

[B]

Feedback.

[A]

I walked off and Taylor was like, okay, like that. You did it.

[B]

You went out, went up there and you came down.

[C]

Well, yeah, the drink. The reason I can't drink is it's like, there's so many things that are, like, out of your control in stand up comedy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That, like, I want to be in absolute, complete control over all the things that I can control, especially the crowd

[B]

work, because that could, like, backfire.

[C]

Yeah. You cannot be drunker than.

[A]

Yeah, I like that you put your crowd work on YouTube and stuff.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So fascinating to watch. Like, but has it ever gone so badly that you're like, no one can see this?

[C]

No, I've never. I've never lost anything against an audience member. So it's. It's been like, I've had a few that have gone, okay, and it's like, well, there's no use in pointing this up just because it's like, it's fine. But no, I've never had. The closest thing I had is I did do a set once where I said, probably one of the meanest things I've ever said to another human being. And they were a heckler. And then they flashed their gun at

[B]

me now, well, I'm going to your show on Monday, and that might happen too.

[C]

Well, it was like when Obama was in office and, like, I was in Crozet, Virginia, which is, like, past at this place called Far Downers. And, like, this is gonna be far

[B]

down on the map.

[C]

But I was doing an online dating dating joke because I was new to comedy, and I was like, yeah, we'll try this. And then, like, I said something about I made a reference to, like, a gay per. Like, I don't remember what the joke was, but it was just being like, I don't know if I referenced Grindr or whatever. And then this dude that came in where he had been overserved somewhere else. Like, it was the type of thing where he's already drunk, but this was his bar, so they were like, here's more alcohol in your body. And he just said something to me. Go back to Richmond. And, like, said. Said Some homophobic slurs to me. And then I said that he looked like every person that's ever fucked a child. And then he just started screaming at me and flashing a gun at me. And I've been doing stand up for like four months at this time.

[A]

And I was like, four months, wow.

[C]

And you would think that the open mic host would, like, get you to wrap it up and just give me the fucking stretch. This is great.

[B]

I mean, clearly you got to him

[C]

and that place doesn't do comedy anymore. And yeah, I went through a hate fucking phase the first year I did comedy. So there's some of that where you would go into a bad room and just be like, I'm gonna destroy everybody in here. And then I grew out of it and now I just like to have a good time. Okay, good.

[A]

Is that how you, like, enter? I don't know, like, into. Because I don't know, anytime I say yes to anything, I'm like, why the did I do this? Why the did I do this? And then I have to remind myself that this is supposed to be fun in a way, like, fulfilling.

[C]

Do you have a mantra you say before you get on stage?

[A]

God, no. I'm not that good.

[C]

I do. So.

[A]

No. I should, like, what?

[C]

I stretch.

[A]

Is it one of those things where you can't, like, say it out loud or else it won't come true?

[C]

I just feel like I just will just, like stretch and swing my arms like. Like this motion, like, back and forth.

[A]

Stretching. Yeah.

[C]

You make yourself big and I stretch. And then I just tell myself too, I stretch. I stretch. Yeah. And then I'll just say the thing over and over and over again until I feel good. Damn.

[A]

Okay, I need one of those.

[C]

Mine is have fun and impose your will.

[A]

That's like, I love that. And then it's like, iconic. Yeah.

[C]

Well, it's just like, I know that, like, if I try really hard, I can make most audiences like me. Like, I can do what I need to do. If I have enough time to, like, really work in a five minute set, it's like. Like there's really only so much you can do. Yeah. But 10, 15 minutes, I can get people to where I want them to go or at least close there. But I can only do that if I'm having a good time, if I'm not having fun. So just have fun. Like, enjoy myself and then just like, also, like, remember what I'm there for. And it's like, to make people laugh.

[A]

That's good advice. Well, that's Probably a good.

[C]

Got a couple more fingers in our ass to wrap it up.

[A]

That's beautiful. I feel like that was a very eloquent way to end off.

[C]

So if you want to imposing your will,

[A]

you just start hosting without me next time you're like, I've actually added another podcast to my repertoire. I killed the last two girls.

[C]

I murdered them. Just kidding. They died in a drunk driving accident.

[A]

Oh well.

[C]

Oh boy, I hope that doesn't happen.

[B]

Beautiful Ikea.

[C]

No, we're told not to knock on it because it will mess up the thing. So wait till the podcast is over. Please keep it professional.

[A]

Oh yeah, I'll tell all of our 70 followers on Instagram what model of Ikea we're recording. Cuz Winston did ask, but do you want to plug your your stuff?

[C]

Yeah, just follow me at Winston H. Comedy on everything. Specifically Tik Tok. I'm on Tik Tok more than everything else. And it's fun. I respond to literally every comment that's posted. I don't care what it is. If it's negative comments, please. If it's negative or positive, my Tik

[B]

Tok username is Weighted Blanket Mommy, so.

[C]

Oh, I like that. Follow me.

[A]

I kill.

[C]

I kill with kindness. On Tik Tok, I did a joke and I had a guy that was in the military make make fun of me and. And I literally just. Yeah, and he was just making fun of me and then I just responded with. It's like, hey man, I just want to thank you so much for your service and. And you fighting for my right to make these jokes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And he was like, God damn. He literally responded. He's like, you think killing me with kindness is going to work? And he goes, da da. You're right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was like, yeah. And then Winston Hodges.com has all my podcasts and stuff like that. And then grieving productively. But I got some weekends coming up. But we don't know when this is going to be posted, so there's no point in plugging those.

[B]

Yeah, we'll put them in the description. Oh yeah, update.

[C]

I'll message Brandon Beswick. He's the one who runs it.

[A]

That's a good idea. Cool. All right, goodbye.

[C]

Bye.

[A]

Thanks for listening to Artificial Intelligence.

[B]

Make sure to subscribe, rate and comment on Apple Podcasts and follow us on Instagram. Artificial Intelligence Podcast.

[A]

If you have an existential question you need us to answer correctly, slide into our DMs or shoot us an email. Email@AI the podcast gmail.com. I've been thinking about getting a Fitbit since you.

[C]

You should. They're fun.

[B]

I like Fitbit person not wearing mine

[A]

now but Winston told me he uses it for comedy cuz you can time

[C]

it and then you get like a vibration vibrate. Yeah. You got the. You do the countdown timer so you

[A]

don't have to like worry about time.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I never have to worry about a light.

[B]

That's really smart.

[A]

Yeah. Because I'm always worried. I was telling Winston like I black out when I do a set and he's so in it.

[C]

Blacking out sounds terrifying. If I blacked out while doing anything I'm like I'm never doing this.

[A]

I just like. Yeah. I can barely gauge like my movements how. I bet like if I do it more it will.

[C]

I don't think you realize how many times you say the N word on stage. It's unbelievable to me and it's almost like a catchphrase.

[A]

Nigeria. Nigeria. We'll fiction post.