Ascend - The Great Books Podcast: Episode Summary
Episode Title: How to Read the Bible like St. Thomas Aquinas and Dante
Release Date: April 29, 2025
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan
Guests: Thomas Lackey, Independent Scholar
Podcast Description:
Ascend is a weekly podcast that delves into the Great Books shaping Western civilization, guided by the Catholic intellectual tradition. Hosted by Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan, the podcast explores texts from ancient authors like Homer and Plato to modern thinkers such as Nietzsche, fostering meaningful conversations suitable for both seasoned readers and newcomers.
Introduction to the Episode
The episode titled "How to Read the Bible like St. Thomas Aquinas and Dante" opens with Deacon Harrison Garlick introducing the topic. He outlines the focus on interpreting scripture through the methodologies employed by St. Thomas Aquinas and Dante Alighieri, particularly emphasizing the four senses of biblical interpretation.
Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [00:00]: "We'll discuss the claim of divine authorship, the traditional four senses of biblical interpretation, and then work through each sense with examples and explanations."
Guest Introductions and Casual Banter
Garlick welcomes Thomas Lackey, an independent scholar and member of their Sunday Great Books group, and reunites with Adam Minihan, known for his work on Homer. The initial part of the conversation includes light-hearted discussions about living in rural Oklahoma, touching on homestead activities like raising chickens and cows.
Notable Anecdote:
Mr. Adam Minihan [02:13]: "We have chickens and cows. The kids just sat out there and watched them for probably 30 minutes. It was a lot of fun."
Discussion on Dante's Inferno and Group Reading Experience
Garlick shares insights from their Sunday small group’s read-through of Dante's Inferno during Lent. He highlights the value of communal reading, where different perspectives enrich the understanding of the text.
Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [06:00]: "It's like, you've read it multiple times yourself because people are bringing those different insights."
Adam Minihan reflects on his fourth reading of Inferno, expressing challenges in understanding Dante’s hierarchy of sins, particularly why certain sins like simony are placed higher in Hell than others.
Notable Quote:
Mr. Adam Minihan [07:05]: "I really wrestled with Dante's understanding of grace and nature and how those relate to the different levels in hell."
Exploring the Four Senses of Biblical Interpretation
Garlick introduces the core topic: the four senses of biblical interpretation as outlined by St. Thomas Aquinas and used by Dante. These senses are:
- Literal Sense: The historical and grammatical meaning.
- Allegorical Sense: The deeper, symbolic meaning pointing to Christ.
- Moral Sense: Lessons and ethical teachings applicable to life.
- Anagogical Sense: Insights about eternal destiny and the afterlife.
Notable Explanation:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [22:00]: "Thomas, do you have a commentary?"
Mr. Thomas Lackey [22:07]: "To know the literal sense is to know the reality intended by the author and signified by those words."
Deep Dive into Each Sense
1. Literal Sense
Garlick emphasizes the importance of understanding the literal sense as the foundation for the other senses. It involves grasping the historical context, author’s intent, and genre.
Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [29:00]: "It's the historical, like, historically, what did this mean? It's also the author's intent."
Thomas Lackey supports this by referencing Augustine and emphasizing that the literal sense encompasses metaphors and parables without oversimplifying.
Notable Quote:
Mr. Thomas Lackey [30:20]: "A reference like that to his arm is a reference to his power. So you're not being more literal by interpreting it as an arm; you're being less literal."
2. Allegorical Sense
The allegorical sense interprets scripture through symbols and types that point to Christ and Christian doctrines. Garlick uses Moses leading Israel out of Egypt as an allegory for Christ leading humanity out of sin through baptism.
Notable Example:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [51:51]: "Moses then equals Christ. Egypt is our slavery to sin... the crossing of the Red Sea is baptism."
Thomas Lackey adds that seeing words as signs of realities underpins the allegorical interpretation, bridging Old and New Testaments.
Notable Quote:
Mr. Thomas Lackey [52:48]: "Words are signs of things, and things can be signs of things. So the Lamb signifies Christ."
3. Moral Sense
The moral sense extracts ethical teachings and lessons for personal conduct. Garlick argues that skipping the allegorical sense in reading scripture limits the depth of moral application.
Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [62:30]: "It seems to be that you're always going to have something that kind of falls short when it tries the image, something else."
Thomas Lackey distinguishes between literal exhortations and moral reads that draw ethical implications from the actions depicted in scripture.
Notable Quote:
Mr. Thomas Lackey [63:42]: "The moral read is about how we ought to act, as Scripture lays out."
4. Anagogical Sense
The anagogical sense relates to the ultimate destiny of humanity and eternal life. It builds upon the literal, allegorical, and moral senses to provide insights into the afterlife and our final end.
Notable Quote:
Mr. Thomas Lackey [69:51]: "It's like, what are we made for? What is the end of man?"
Garlick summarizes the quadriga (four-horse chariot) of interpretation, emphasizing how each sense builds upon the previous to guide believers towards their eternal destiny.
Practical Applications and Recommendations
Garlick's Guidance:
- Encourages listeners to adopt the four senses in their scripture reading to deepen their understanding and relationship with Christ.
- Recommends resources like St. Thomas Aquinas’s Catena Aria and the Ignatius Bible for comprehensive commentaries that utilize the four senses.
Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [75:00]: "If you have a good commentary and you start reading scripture and think about the four senses, you'll grow in your familiarity and your capacity to read scripture like this."
Adam Minihan's Advice:
- Suggests starting with accessible texts like Aesop’s Fables to develop the habit of allegorical thinking before tackling more complex scriptures.
- Highlights the importance of exposing children to allegorical stories to nurture their intellectual and imaginative growth.
Notable Quote:
Mr. Adam Minihan [78:50]: "Reading Aesop's Fables... build that muscle to be looking for these things."
Conclusion and Future Plans
The hosts wrap up by reiterating the significance of the four senses in scripture reading and their commitment to fostering this interpretative approach within their community. They announce upcoming episodes focused on Greek plays and Plato, encouraging listeners to join their slow, steady journey through the Great Books.
Final Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [81:02]: "Reading from the Gospel of Hoarding. Dude, look. Yeah, three years old."
Closing Remarks: Garlick thanks the guests and listeners, emphasizing the ongoing nature of their exploration through the Great Books and inviting everyone to participate in the upcoming readings.
Resources Mentioned:
- St. Thomas Aquinas’s Catena Aria: A comprehensive commentary on the Gospels, integrating insights from the Church Fathers.
- Ignatius Bible: A study Bible that balances literal and spiritual senses of scripture.
- Father Mike Schmidt’s Bible in a Year Podcast: Recommended for understanding the arc and story of scripture.
Additional Recommendations:
- Augustine’s On Christian Doctrine: Explores rules for interpreting scripture.
- Abbot Nesteros’s Works: Examples of compressing multiple senses of interpretation.
Final Thought: Adopting the quadriga approach enriches one's reading of scripture, allowing for a profound engagement with its historical roots, symbolic meanings, ethical teachings, and eternal implications.