Podcast Summary: Ascend – The Great Books Podcast

Episode: "Purgatorio: Acedia and Avarice (Cantos 18–22)"

Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Sarah Berry (University of Dallas, English Department)
Release Date: March 10, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode continues Ascend’s journey through Dante’s Purgatorio, focusing on Cantos 18–22. Deacon Garlick and Adam are joined by Dr. Sarah Berry for her first appearance, providing literary and theological analysis of Dante’s treatment of Acedia (Sloth), Avarice, and the approach to Gluttony on Mount Purgatory. The discussion highlights Dante’s spiritual and philosophical ideas, mechanisms of sin and virtue, the formation of the soul, and the complex allegory of human ascent toward God. Special attention is paid to Virgil's philosophical lessons on love and free will, the subtlety of sloth, the mechanics of purgation, and the poignant introduction of the poet Statius.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Read the Purgatorio? (05:54–08:32)

• Dr. Berry explains that Purgatorio is "humanity in motion," distinct from the stasis of Inferno (sinners locked into patterns) and the fulfilled souls of Paradiso. Purgatory "shows us human beings in time," offering immediate and practical relevance for spiritual growth.
  • Quote (07:43):
    "What Purgatorio shows you is humanity in motion, dynamic humanity… it lets us see something close to what we are experiencing." – Dr. Berry

2. Interpreting the Voices of Purgatory (09:42–11:31)

• Penitents in Purgatory “aren’t malicious, but they don’t know everything.” Their words may still be colored by their sins; interpreting them requires discernment, just as one discerns the moral state of real people at various stages of spiritual development.

3. Virgil’s Sermon: What Is Love? (Canto 18) (13:26–28:43)

• Virgil’s Philosophy of Love & Free Will:
  Virgil describes love as the “inclination of the soul,” drawing on classical philosophy but recognizing, like a flame, that love naturally ascends. Dante explores culpability: if love is natural, how can one be blamed for it?
• Key Quotes:
  • "Just as fire is born to rise… your love is like a fire… its nature has an upward movement to it, so too does your love." – Deacon Garlick (17:39, paraphrasing Dante)
• Culpability & the Will:
  Reason allows us to govern our loves, not just be carried by them. There’s a “threshold of ascent” (free will) that can consent to, or resist, interests and passions.
  • "No one knows where thought or cognition comes from... but we can observe that human beings have this unique capacity..." – Dr. Berry (20:31)
  • Virgil defers to Beatrice for fuller answers, hinting the will is a Christian concept (Augustinian), something "the pagan has to ultimately defer to grace."
• Virtue as Habituation:
  Moral development isn't just intellectual but involves forming desires through example and activity—the penitents actively reorient their souls on each terrace.

4. The Terrace of Acedia (Sloth) (33:12–44:57)

• Nature of Acedia:
  Not mere laziness, but a “deep cooling of love”—a lack or sorrow for spiritual goods, not simply inactivity.
  • "A marathon runner... can have a very acedia-filled life. The CEO of a big company can be very slothful... [it is] a cooling of love." – Deacon Garlick (36:16)
• Contrapasso (Penance):
  The slothful run ceaselessly in Purgatory to cultivate zeal. Zeal is the opposing virtue, exemplified by Mary (her haste to Elizabeth) and Caesar (promptness in action).
• Difficulty in Recognizing Acedia:
  Zeal and Acedia both may not manifest outwardly; it's about the inward inclination and whether works are motivated by love for the highest good.

5. The Function and Meaning of Purgatorial Punishments (44:57–47:04)

• In Inferno, souls are “handed over” to their vices; in Purgatorio, punishments are pedagogical—contrary to the vice, designed to repair love and will.

6. Dreams & Allegory: The Woman and the Siren (Canto 19) (48:42–56:16)

• As Dante ascends to the terrace of avarice, he dreams of a hideous woman whose beauty grows as he gazes. She becomes a siren, exposing the danger of excessive love of lower goods.
• Allegorical Structure:
  The “righteous woman” intervenes—symbolizing the threshold of ascent/free will; knowledge and reason alone (Virgil) are not sufficient—a grace-filled act (feminine imagery, consistent with Beatrice, Lucy, and Mary) is required.
  • "Reason can't do it alone. Virgil can't just step in and say, that's the siren. There's this other side of the will that has to be activated." – Dr. Berry (52:32)
• The siren’s reference to Ulysses invites comparison: Dante, unlike Ulysses, will succeed because he allows knowledge to change his will, not pursue it for its own sake.

7. The Terrace of Avarice & Broader Notion of Attachment (61:58–66:43)

• Scope of Avarice:
  Not just greed, but excessive attachment to temporal goods—power, security, status—not only money.
  • "Here, we're starting to think of other things as a kind of avarice... all the different ways this could look in a human life..." – Dr. Berry (61:58)
• Contrapasso:
  The avaricious lie face down, forced to look toward the earth they were obsessively attached to.
• Positive Virtues:
  Counter-examples include Mary (who bears Christ in a humble manger), a self-denying Roman consul, and St. Nicholas’ generosity.
  • "It's not just one vision of what the opposite of avarice is. It's this kind of range..." – Dr. Berry (87:04)

8. Dante’s Political Commentary (90:17–92:36)

• Dante critiques the corruption and infighting of French dynasties, the mistreatment of the papacy, and historical injustices.
• He distinguishes between the flawed individuals (Boniface VIII) and the sanctity of the office (the Papacy deserves respect regardless of the occupant).

9. The Mechanics & Individual Experience of Purgation (Cantos 21–22) (100:21–106:44)

• Earthquake (Trembling):
  Signals a soul completing its purgation at a terrace—movement and joy affect the mountain itself.
• Statius’ Journey:
  Souls spend different amounts of time on each terrace, based on their struggles. Statius serves as a living example—he purges years of slow conversion (acedia) and avarice but quickly moves through the remaining terraces.
  • "To want alone is sufficient proof of purity." (paraphrased by Dr. Berry, 105:14)
• Entrance of Statius is both literary (he bridges pagan and Christian poetry) and emotional (he represents possibility, but also illustrates what Virgil lacks—redemption through Christ).

10. The Tragic Arc of Virgil (106:44–114:00)

• Statious credits Virgil both for poetry and the first glimmers of Christian faith, though Virgil “carried the light behind him”—guiding others but excluded himself.
• The conversation raises the sadness of Virgil’s fate; Dante’s treatment suggests hope and longing for the salvation even of the virtuous pagan.
  • "Dante doesn't let it go. Almost every conversation he has in Paradiso... the background of that question is: 'What about Virgil?'" – Dr. Berry (112:38)

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Berry (07:43):
  "Purgatorio shows you humanity in motion... there’s an urgency to it... that’s tremendously helpful, applicable."
• Harrison Garlick (17:39):
  "Your love is like a fire... has an upward movement to it, so too, does your love."
• Dr. Berry (52:32):
  "Reason can't do it alone... there’s this other side of the will that has to be activated..."
• Dr. Berry (36:16):
  "What slothfulness really is—this acedia—is a cooling of love..."
• Dr. Berry (61:58):
  "Here we’re starting to think of other things as a kind of avarice... all the different ways this could look in a human life..."
• Dr. Berry (112:38):
  "Dante doesn’t let it go. Almost every conversation he has in Paradiso... the background of that question is, 'What about Virgil?'"

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Overview on Purgatorio’s Relevance: 05:54–08:32
• Interpreting Purgatory’s Voices: 09:42–11:31
• Virgil on Love & Free Will: 13:26–28:43
• Nature of Acedia: 33:12–44:57
• Allegory of the Siren Dream: 48:42–56:16
• The Challenge of Avarice: 61:58–66:43
• Political & Ecclesial Critique: 90:17–92:36
• Earthquake & Mechanics of Purgation (Statius): 100:21–106:44
• The Fate of Virgil: 106:44–114:00

Memorable Moments

• Dr. Berry’s distinction between the stasis of hell, the perfection of heaven, and the dynamism of purgatory.
• Analysis of Dante’s dream about the siren and the philosophical implications for the relationship between knowledge, will, and grace.
• The hosts' wrestling with Virgil’s role as guide and the pathos of his exclusion from paradise—demonstrating the depth and humanity Dante grants his characters.
• Reflection on Dante’s ability to layer historical commentary, spiritual allegory, and literary self-awareness in a single narrative.

Further Reading Recommended in the Episode

• The Noonday Devil (on Acedia)
• C.S. Lewis’s essay on Statius
• Dorothy Sayers, "Dante's Virgil"

For Listeners

This episode offers a rich, accessible map for navigating the heart of Dante’s Purgatorio: how humans struggle to love rightly, the nuanced understanding of vice and its remedies, and the hope that our ascent is both possible and guided, not merely by reason, but by grace.

Next Episode: The ascent continues with the terrace of gluttony, joined by Father Patrick Briscoe, Dominican, potentially reporting in from Rome!