Podcast Summary:

Ascend - The Great Books Podcast
Episode: "Purgatorio: Envy and Wrath (Cantos 13-17) with Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson"
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson (Pepperdine University)
Date: March 3, 2026

Overview

In this insightful episode, Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan are joined by Dante scholar Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson for an in-depth exploration of Dante’s Purgatorio, Cantos 13-17. The focus is on the second and third terraces of Mount Purgatory, where souls are purged of Envy and Wrath, and the greater structure and educational purpose of Purgatorio is brought into focus. Special emphasis is given to Canto 16, the pivotal midpoint of the Divine Comedy, which deals with the question of free will and the roots of evil in the world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Read the Purgatorio?

[07:52]

• Purgatorio is described as "the most human canticle" of the Comedy, set on a metaphysical Earth filled with day and night, art, education, and the rehumanization of the soul.
• It acts as a "priceless map of spiritual growth," showing not only the recognition of sin but a method for moving towards the good.
• Dr. Wilson says:

  “If you really want to know what it means—like how to live—this is the canticle that Dante writes in a way that shows you how to live a flourishing life.”
  [07:52]

2. The Liturgy and Structure of the Terraces

[12:33]

• Dante’s approach is compared to liturgy or classroom catechesis: each terrace presents examples of the contrary virtue, the vice being purged, prayers, beatitudes, and liturgic or artistic elements (visual, auditory, and dramatic).
• This repetition mirrors actual pedagogy, educating not just through moralizing but through formation of desire and imagination.
• Dr. Wilson comments:

  “Dante's being formed as kind of a liturgy of the classroom... your heart is so mis-seeing or mis-imagining... envious people, immense [in] scarcity of resources. So the reason that they want what you have is not enough—they also don’t want you to have it because they don’t think there’s enough to go around... Mary has a mindset of abundance even when enough isn’t there.”
  [16:26]

3. Terrace of Envy – Canto 13 & 14

[12:33 – 35:49]

• Contrary Virtue: Generosity or magnanimity, illustrated first by Mary at Cana (“They have no wine”—interceding for others in need).
• Examples:
  • Mary interceding at Cana (Christian virtue of abundance)
  • Orestes (Pagan virtue – self-sacrifice/friendship)
  • “Love them from whom you suffer evil” (Scriptural principle)
• Punishment/Contrapasso: The envious penitents have their eyes sewn shut with iron wire—symbolizing how envy corrupts the way we see others’ goods and the world (envy enters through sight).
• Vertical Reading: Dante mirrors episodes from Inferno, showing the purging/unwinding of earlier sins.
• Memorable quote:

  “Envy is a way of mis-seeing the world—a mindset of scarcity versus abundance, which Mary models at Cana.” (Wilson, [16:26])

4. Terrace of Wrath – Canto 15-17

[40:05 – 83:49]

• Contrary Virtue: Gentleness/Meekness, as exemplified by Mary’s controlled anger after Jesus is lost in the temple, a tyrant who forgives an indiscretion toward his daughter, and St. Stephen forgiving his persecutors.
• Punishment: Souls wander in blinding smoke—wrath clouds reason and perception.
• Catechesis on Goods (Canto 15): Differentiating finite (exhaustible) and infinite (inexhaustible) goods, preparing the soul for a “common good” not rooted in competition but in superabundant divine grace.

  "The more up there intending love, the more there are who love aright, the more there is of loving mirrors reflecting one another." (Dante/Purged by Harrison Garlick, [47:57])

• Examples of Vice: Pagan and biblical, such as Haman from Esther, and mothers who, motivated by wrath, destroy their own children.

5. The Centrality of Canto 16: Free Will and the Roots of Evil

[63:07 – 83:16]

• Canto 16 is “the most important Canto in the entire Divine Comedy” because it addresses the root question: “What is wrong with the world?”
• Dante, through dialogue with Marco the Lombard, explores the roles of free will, law, and leadership; the causes of evil are ultimately in humans themselves.
• Dr. Wilson's key insight:

  “Once you start realizing the language of freedom is really the key that unlocks our access to discipleship… you’re free in Christ. This freedom becomes the watchword for, I think, the next 50 cantos.”

• Freedom vs. Modernity: Freedom is presented not as modern libertarian autonomy, but as the soul’s capacity to freely choose and love the good—true liberty as the harmonizing of one’s will with God’s.
• Dante connects this anthropological insight to political structure, lamenting the historical fusion and confusion of spiritual and temporal power in his Italy, and the decline of virtuous leadership.

  “If the present world has gone astray, it’s you who are the reason. Look at yourselves.” (Marco the Lombard via Dr. Baxter translation, [73:16])

6. The Structure of Mount Purgatory (Canto 17 Recap)

[83:49-end]

• Lower Purgatory: First three terraces—Pride, Envy, Wrath—purge misdirected loves (self, goods, others).
• Middle Terrace: Sloth/Acadia—purges deficient love (failure to love enough).
• Upper Terraces: Avarice, Gluttony, Lust—purge excessive love of good things.
• The structure reflects Dante’s psychological and theological mapping of the soul, progressing from the most self-absorbed to the most human (lust, being closest to real love, comes last).

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Why Read Purgatorio? — [07:52]
• Structure of the Terraces/Liturgy — [12:33]
• Envy: Contrapasso & Vertical Reading — [13:49, 35:49]
• Wrath: Catechesis, Contrapasso, Virtues/Vices — [40:05, 51:09, 54:10]
• Canto 15 – The Nature of Goods & Inexhaustible Goodness — [43:55]
• Canto 16 – Free Will, Human Responsibility for Evil — [63:07, 73:16]
• Political Order, Duo Sunt, Critique of Temporal/Spiritual Fusion — [76:18]
• Canto 17 – Structure of Purgatory — [83:49-end]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The more up there intending love, the more there are who love aright, the more there is of loving mirrors reflecting one another.” — Dante / discussed by Garlick ([47:57])

• “If the present world has gone astray, it’s you who are the reason. Look at yourselves.” — Marco the Lombard via Dr. Baxter ([73:16])

• “Dante’s being formed as kind of a liturgy of the classroom.” — Dr. Hooten Wilson ([12:33])

• “You living souls attribute blame to the heavens for every single thing, as if all things arise from necessity. If that were the case, indeed, free will would be destroyed in you.” — Marco the Lombard paraphrased ([70:27])

• “Everyone likes the Inferno because everyone’s very familiar with sin. We’re very familiar with disordered desire and giving into it… The Purgatorio is a priceless map of spiritual growth.” — Harrison Garlick ([09:21])

• “The law can come alongside you… So if you decide not to act rationally, hopefully the law can kind of help shepherd you…” — Harrison Garlick ([73:29])

Thematic Flow and Style

• The conversation balances high-level theological analysis with down-to-earth, practical reflection on education and personal development.
• Dr. Wilson situates Purgatorio as essential reading for anyone interested in virtue, spiritual growth, and the formation of the will and intellect.
• The tone is lively, rigorous, and generous—continually inviting first-time readers and encouraging deep engagement with Dante’s artistry and pedagogy.

Conclusion

This episode delivers a thoughtful, multi-layered engagement with Purgatorio Cantos 13-17, combining literary structure, theological insight, and practical wisdom for the spiritual life. Particularly illuminated is the structure of Purgatory, the liturgical/catechetical repetition in each terrace, and the crucial midpoint of Canto 16, where Dante’s philosophical and pedagogical intentions are made clear. The episode is a rich resource for both first-time Dante readers and those more familiar with his work, providing memorable takeaways about the journey from vice to virtue.

Next week: Dr. Sarah Berry from University of Dallas discusses Avarice and Prodigality (Cantos 18-22).