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Ascend - The Great Books Podcast
Purgatorio: Gluttony and Lust (Cantos 23-27) with Fr. Patrick Briscoe, OP
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Today on Ascend, the Great Books Podcast, we continue our wonderful journey through Dante's Purgatorio as We discuss Cantos 23 through 27, covering gluttony and lust. This has, I think, some of the most beautiful and challenging imagery in the entire Purgatorio. And man, we are almost there. We are almost to the top of Mount Purgatory. And once you get to the top, the whole tone changes. It's wonderful. It's somewhat crazy. It's beautiful. That was my favorite part of the Purgatorio the first time I read it. So I'm really excited to get to the top of Mount Purgatory. But today's conversation is absolutely excellent because we have Father Patrick Briscoe, who is a Dominican friar out of the east coast province, the province of St. Joseph, but currently he's serving, overseeing all the communications for the order of preachers. So he joins us out of Rome. Very humbled that he would join us and take time out of his busy schedule to discuss Dante with us. He has phenomenal comments, insights I always love hearing from Father Patrick Briscoe. Again, humbled that he joined us today for the podcast. Also, as a reminder, we have a guide to Dante's Purgatorio. 51 questions on Dante's Purgatorio, Lots of preliminary reading questions. If you're looking for something for homeschooling or a small group or as a supplement as you teach in a classical high school, any way it can help you, It's a wonderful deep dive. You can find it on our Patreon page, et cetera. I appreciate all of you. I appreciate the support very much enjoying this reading of Dante's Purgatorio with you. All this lint. Also very much appreciate the feedback. You guys are excellent. So today join us for a fantastic conversation with Father Patrick Brisco, Dominican Friar, over Cantos 23 through 27 on gluttony in Lust.
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Foreign
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welcome to Ascend, the Great Books Podcast. My name is Deacon Harrison Garlick. I'm a husband, father of five and serve as Chancellor General Counsel for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa. We are recording on a beautiful morning here at the Chancery. If you're new to Ascend, we're a weekly podcast that helps guide you through the great books. We've read the Iliad, the Odyssey, many of the Greek plays, several of the Platonic dialogues, with a reread of Homer's Odyssey this summer in anticipation of the movie. And then we're going to dive into Players Republic later in 2026. Check us out on X, YouTube, Facebook and Patreon. We appreciate all of our supporters who have access to written guides for the great books. We have a guide to the Purgatorio, for example, and also some community chats where you can chit chat with people who are also reading these books together. Also, thank you to the center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College and Dr. Jason Baxter for promoting our read of Dante's Purgatorio. This flint and go check out Dr. Baxter's new translation of the Purgatorio. I've read Musa, I've read Esalen, and now I'm working through Baxter, and I find this one to be very illuminative and very beautiful. So I really enjoyed it. Today we have our fifth episode working through Dante's Purgatorio, covering Cantos 23 through 27, the sixth terrace purging gluttony, and the seventh and final terrace purging lust. And to guide us through all of this, we have a wonderful guest. We have the Father Patrick Brisco, a Dominican friar who serves as the general promoter for social communication for the entire order of preachers and is joining us out of Rome today. Welcome, Father.
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Thanks so much, Deacon, for having me on. It's great to be with you, I should say. You alleged that I was the guide, though, and I hope you don't consider me another Virgil, because I think the reality is I'm. I'm another Dante. And we might be two Dantes struggling together.
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That's fine.
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We'll.
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We will make it work. I am. However, since you are in Rome, I am going to defer to you on all the Italian names. So that's your one role today.
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Oh, see? Chair. Noche, pablama.
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See, that's great. And I'm from Oklahoma, so you can pretty much say whatever you want and I will be impressed. Okay. But before we get into the Purgatorio, like, what. What's a Dominican?
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I'm so glad you asked. He is a scholar of Dante. No, that's not true. Although we do have some, and I called one up and asked him a question last night, so it was a good reason to get back in touch with him. But a Dominican is a friar, and we're part of the medieval movement of religious life. Maybe that's part of why we like Dante so much, because we're coming out of the same moment of life in the church. Dante's writing in a crisis, and it's apparent in a number of ways in all the political References. Right. Like you talked about, surely the differences between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines and then even the different factions of, of those various parties which get divided into the whites and the blacks and all the rest. It's a complicated moment politically, and it's a complicated moment for the church because the rise of the city and, and a burgeoning middle class and the development of the university all demanded of the Church a new response for evangelization. And it wouldn't suffice to simply mobilize monks, because that's a real violence. You know, I'm thinking of our friends at Benedictine right now. It would be a real violence to pry monks out of this fantastic monastery and make them do other things. Monks belong in monasteries because their life of prayer or teaching, sometimes, as is the case of Benedictine, the life in the monastery is itself a sanctifying thing. And it. And it wouldn't do to drag them out of the monastery to meet the challenges of the day. So a number of different saints saw this problem and proposed responses. Of course, the. The most famous is Il Poverello, Francis of Assisi, the poor one, the poor one of God, who answered this problem with his love of lady poverty and his promotion of a radical gospel simplicity. But another fellow traveler of Francis is of course, St. Dominic, who we meet in Paradiso as a beautiful, beautiful moment in the Paradiso. And Dominic proposes to meet the needs of the burgeoning medieval city, and especially the university, a new kind of preaching, a new kind of religious life, one that combines some elements of monasticism. So Dominicans wear a monastic habit like the one I'm wearing. It's got a nice hood and long scapular that's always in the way, and a rosary that I get caught on. Everything blunder about. So that tells you that there's some elements of my life that are monastic because we look like monks. But unlike monks, we don't stay in the monastery. We go out for various apostolic activities. And again, specifically for Dominic, this. This involved using study, sacred study, discipline of study, the penance of study, in order to inform our preaching so that we could better engage the developing world. So Dominic founded the order in 1216. I live here at Santa Sabina, the Basilica of Santa Sabina, the crown of the Aventine, the jewel of the Aventine, one of the seven hills of Rome. It's actually the second place hill because when Romulus and Remus were offering their sacrifices, Remus came over here and the birds didn't come to his sacrifice. They instead went to his brothers. And that's why the city is named Rome after Romulus, not Rheim. So, so. So we're here at the Aventine, and we're here at the Aventine at Santa Sabina basilica, because in 1220 thereabouts, the friars moved in when Pope Honorius III, after having approved the order and St. Dominic's project, gifted the basilica to St. Dominic. So we've been up here for a bit. It's a beautiful thing to live here. To be in the spaces that St. Dominic was in for a period of his life, a brief period, but for a period of his life is a very beautiful and very precious thing. And then beyond Our Holy Father, St. Dominic, our founder, Santa Sabina has an important place in the life of the order because it became the administrative center which kind of bounced back and forth between the Minerva and Santa Sabina here, depending on the moment. But for a while, Santa Sabina was also used as a center of studies.
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And.
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And it was here, according to various recent scholars, it was here that St. Thomas wrote the first part of the Summa Theologiae. And we have a tradition that we know even which cell he was in when he was doing that writing. So that's kind of a cool thing. But also Pope Saint Pius V was a member of this community and many other saints and blessed stayed overnight here. Saint Hyacinth of Poland. Sviata Jacek was dispatched from here to found the order in Poland when Henry Dominic Lockward Air founded the order, refounded the order in France after communist revolutionaries had killed lots of our brethren. He did so having studied here and then entered the Novishna Santa Sabina. So it's a place that has a privileged spot in Dominican history, and it's a lovely place to live. It also has spectacular views of the city of Rome under its absolutely magnificence. It's really for the suffering souls that I sit out on our extremely lovely Belvedere rain, smoke a cigar and gaze of the Eternal City. It's for those suffering souls that I do.
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Your sacrifices are well noted, Father. We appreciate them. Think of us when you're engaged. Please think of us and pray for us when you're on that balcony with that cigar. No, it's beautiful. The history is incredibly rich. Love the dominicans. We had Dr. Prudlo on to help us through the purgatorio early on. He helped us kind of understand the connection between Dante and St. Thomas Aquinas. Dante was like the grand student of Aquinas because he studied under the student of Aquinas, you see that imprint, that Thomistic imprint, I think, on the comedy a lot. Tell us, though, about your particular role. So I think you're somewhat new to it. You're getting your feet underneath you. What is your role?
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I am indeed. Well, my role is more like Dante's than Aquinas's at this point, I would say. Not that my vocation is to be an epic poet, but Dante, of course, is applied Aquinas. It's Aquinas for the masses, Aquinas in poetry, Aquinas in art. And my job as communications director of the Order is to tell the stories of the brothers and sisters of the Order so as to animate the Order's life internally, to make the Order known to the Order, but also to catch the attention of passersby, to help people know what the Dominicans are doing, to help us, see us. It's very. The Order is a very precious thing. It's very, very interesting thing, because religious orders are founded and fall out, and it's not a bad thing. It doesn't mean that they're necessarily populated with sinners. It means that the particular charism, the grace of founding and the mission that was given to the founder has run its course in the life of the Church. And what I think is so curious about the dominicans is that 800 years later, we're still here. And it's not that we've just kind of hunkered down and tried to weather all the storms. The Order's engaged and vibrant and serving at the heart of the Church in any number of ways. I mean, just to look around at the city of Rome is incredible. At the Angelicum, our university, for example, we have over a thousand students, many of whom are Americans, but also many of whom come from the global south, from the far reaches of the Church. They come here to Rome, and they're being formed in the thought especially of St. Thomas Aquinas and privileged by his theological view and foundation. So this is not only the church of today, this is the church of the future. These are the men and women who will lead their religious communities, who will lead dioceses, who will be themselves great preachers and missionaries of the Gospel. So the Angelicum is an incredible project. We still have the Minerva, which is where Catherine of Siena is buried, Rome's only Gothic church, located just around the corner, as you know, from the Pantheon, which is today a lively center for preaching. The church itself is being magnificently restored. They've had a series of projects over the years to protect it. And that's really an apostolic center. Also buried there is the great Dominican artist, Blessed Fra Angelico. His tomb is just to the right of. Or just to the left, excuse me, of Catherine's, if you're looking at the altar. So we have all these centers and all these projects and all these apostolates. And as the communications director, my job is just to tell a little bit of that and to put the brothers and sisters in contact with each other internally and then to reshape some things externally. So I encourage all of you listening to follow us on our social media. We're at Ordo Predicatorum. Not an easy name, but a universal one. That's the Latin name of the order, the Order of Preachers. Ordo Predicatorum. On Facebook and Instagram, we're especially active. We're getting a new website soon over@op.org so you can look at the current one and then be more excited later this spring when it's renewed. So all of these things are sort of my day to day from the kind of professional communications. And then in the meantime, I just continue to try to butcher Italian less as I celebrate him preaching Holy Mass here in the community and in the city.
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Wonderful. I. Yeah, I. You know, you mentioned the future of the church, and I certainly hope so. I love the Dominicans. You guys are doing great work. I think you give a hope to a lot of people. We certainly need you guys. So I appreciate you. Appreciate the order, appreciate everything you're doing. Let's look at Purgatorio. Okay, so Purgatory. We're in Canto 23, so let's just take a step back. Like, where are we? Okay, so we have traveled up lower Purgatory. So we had pride, envy and wrath. These were our misdirected loves, if you will. Then we kind of have this middle terrace, which was like a deficient love acedia, slothfulness, like the love has been cooled. It needs to be kind of rekindled. And now towards the top, we're getting into an excessive love, which is this love that has loved a good something that's good, but in a disproportionate way. And so we're still here in gluttony. And we are then going to make our way into the final terrace, which is lust. So just. That's just a little snapshot of where we are as we kind of start this journey. In the beginning.
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What's important about. If I can jump in. Sorry. What's important about that? Pastorally, is that Dante gets what is right in Aquinas and through the tradition, broadly, that our temptation, I think, as Christians, is to consider lust and lustful sins as the most egregious of sins. And the reason that gluttony and lust are here at the height of purgatory is because they're not as grave. And I think this is what's difficult when people are growing in the spiritual life, as you yourself direct many souls, Deacon, you know this. It's difficult because people, once they begin to eradicate habitual grave sin, especially against lust or temperance in this case, when it comes to gluttony, oftentimes they get stuck. They don't know what to do. Because, of course, things like anger and envy and pride are much more difficult to rid out of this hole. And so that's why the purgatorio is so powerful. When we arrive here, you think, like, wow, why is lust at the top? Because it's actually not the worst one, right?
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Yeah, it's the closest to love. It's a misdirected love. It's a love in an excess, in a particular way. I think, too, because you get that same question when we went through the Inferno. So be like, we're gonna go through the worst sins, and then the second circle of hell is lust. You're like, wait, I thought this would be way lower into hell. But one of the distinctions I think that people make, which I think is helpful, is there's also a distinction between severity and commonality. And so I think that one of the things, like you think of our lady of Fatima, right, says that more souls go to hell for lust than any other reason, right? Sins of the flesh. So it could be a very, very common sin. But how Dante has structured them here is their severity against love. How much are they actually, you know, a derelict against love itself? So we are going into the terrace. We're on the gluttonous. One of the things that I always want to note is what's the prayer? So every. Every single terrace, except for a Sadie, which is kind of interesting, has a prayer that they're usually saying in addition to a beatitude. So the prayer here, we're introduced at the beginning, which is actually psalm from Psalm 50. And so obviously you see the connection there with gluttony. They have a misuse of the mouth, and now they're asking the Lord to kind of rectify that to give them a proper use. One thing that we're watching here that I always think is interesting is that we're always looking for the examples. So we have this, like, liturgy, right? We have this pattern on the terraces in which he's always giving us good examples and bad examples. The good examples always have Mary and then usually a couple others, usually an imperial or pagan example. And then we have negative ones. What I thought was really interesting here is that in the contrapasso, kind of towards the beginning, I'm looking at, like, line 24 or so, we get introduced to the penitent souls. We. We kind of just kind of get a little glimpse of them, that they're so wasted away, their skin took form directly from their bones. And what's interesting here, so that we. We're kind of get. Okay, so they're wasting away. That kind of makes sense for contrapassos. Now. It looks like they're fasting, they're starving, they're. They struggled with. With gluttony. But what's interesting here is that then he gives two examples here. And if I read this right, these aren't the bad examples that Purgatory gives. These are what Dante is thinking as he's working through that. So he thinks then of two examples. So the first one there that he gives us, this is at 25 or so. This is from Ovid's Metamorphosis of someone who cut down a tree and then was punished and basically just wasted away until they ate themselves. And that's what he says these people look like very gaunt, their skin and bones. And then the second one, which is also somewhat horrific, is when Miriam. Yeah, Jerusalem's under siege. And he has this, like, really horrific line where he says, where Mary stuck her beak into her son. The mother eats her own son, she's so hungry. So this is like how he's setting this up of gluttony, which I think, in a lot of ways, you know, I think Dante, it's interesting. So gluttony is towards the top. It's a lesser sin. But then when you get into the terrace, Dante the poet does a lot to present you with something that is actually very serious to your interior life. Something. This is a very serious sin that we have to consider.
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From these first lines of this canto. I want to reiterate, as you did, the prayer, which is, of course, the opening words of the divine office. We didn't say that directly. Familiar to everyone who prayed. Praise the liturgy of the hours. Lord, open my lips. This is the prayer of every morning. And so it's the consecration, therefore, of every religious and layperson and cleric who prays the divine office. Lord, open my lips. Let my whole day belong to you. Let all of my work sing your praises. And so now, as you said, deacon, now everything that comes forth from the mouth has to be consecrated. It's kind of a reverse, as we pointed out, the contrapasso. But then here, Miriam is so evocative. You know, Dante takes this from. From Josephus, I think. Right. But then we see in the next few lines this. This great description of. Of how they look, which. Which is an allusion to a. To a. A very lovely medieval principle. Well, well worth our consideration here. Okay, so these two. These two stanzas, the sockets of their eyes were gemless rings. One who reads uomo in the face of men could easily have recognized the M. Who would believe, ignorant of the cause, that nothing but the smell of fruit or spring could bring them to this withered greediness? So this point about the face is really cool. And I had not remembered this and loved the image again when I came into it. Okay, so omo is the Latin word for man. And the idea, the medieval conception, is that you can see it on the face, meaning the two I's are the O's, and the nose forms the m. But you can also read into the face dei, with the ears forming the D, the mouth and the nose being the E, and the I. So womo DEI being a reference to the image of God. And that part of. Part of what Dante is pointing us to is the fact that we're being all refashioned. And there's a couple other places I'll bring this up, but all being refashioned in the image. The image is being made perfect in us. So image perfection is a huge theme in Aquinas, one that modern scholars especially have come to love. And what's interesting is that as. As Dante is talking about it being difficult to recognize them, he can still. He can still. He can still see it, and that the image is going to be. The image is going to be refashioned, that the sin has been the deformity, and that. That purgatory is. Is the purifying and perfecting of the image.
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That's really fascinating because, yeah, you could make an argument that then in gluttony, the face is bloated and the O M, O is harder to see. Right. You actually distort the image of God in you. And now this gaunt, like, fasting actually makes that image more clear. I like that a lot. And, yeah, you're right. He says, I don't know if it's in this canto or not. But they make this very clear that they're being refashioned. They have to be refashioned into the image of God. He meets his. He meets his friend here.
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This is down at Fort Forays, eh?
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Yeah. This is really funny because I was reading. I didn't know who this was, so I was kind of reading up on it. And, you know, they're poetry buddies, but they're sending letters back and forth. But apparently a lot of their poetry would actually be like digs at each other.
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It's like slam, slam sonnets.
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So this is like his friend that he was like writing to. And he's like, hey, fatty, how you doing? And like now he's up here in Gluttony, which I thought was really funny. It's like, wait, what are you doing here? But he has.
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They're really, really brutal.
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I know it's funny. But he. I liked a lot around line 61 or so this is where he. He gives. I want to read a little bit of this because this is where he goes into kind of a deep dive on the contrapasso, on the penance. And so he says. And he to me, by virtue of eternal wisdom, a power descends upon these waters. And in that plant behind by these were made so thin. All the people here both sing and weep because they followed after unbound gluttony. But here by thirst and hunger we are remade as holy. There is a fragrance emanating from the fruit and from the spray that wafting through the foliage of the tree enkindles in us desire to drink and eat. And not one time alone, but every time we wheel around the pain is refreshed. So because you will get a clear picture later, there's actually two trees that they keep going back and round fourth one. So they have this like, desire that's enkindled. And then the other one will actually have like the fruit. And this is happening to. As you mentioned, this happens to refashion them in the image of God. I also really liked. I don't know, just. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. But it was really interesting to me in that terset down by line 33 or so or sorry, excuse me, 73 is that. Then they connect the tree to Christ on the cross, that which gilded Christ exultant to say Eli, once he had freed us from what was his in his veins. So by his blood. And this is of course a reference to My God, My God, why have you forsaken me so that really caught my imagination on this as like, okay, so then the tree also is invocative of the cross. It's the means by which they are saved. It's going to be the means of their salvation.
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One of the points that Dante brings home in this group of Cantos that we're reading is he's emphasizing so clearly, he's emphasizing repeatedly the importance and centrality of free will. So in the idea of the gordly love poem, which is going to get denounced and this will come up more so we can expand on it. But the idea is that our sins are set by the star and that they're determined and that human beings are essentially helpless in the face of them. So a kind of courtly glove is a love that comes upon you and there's nothing you can do but obey it. And Dante is. Is writing a refutation of that idea in a number of places. And we see that. That here actually in these lines which you just read for that in my translation, this, the same will that leads us to the tree let Christ to cry out joyously. And this has both an important reference to free will because Christ chooses the cross. He chooses the cross, the tree of life, against our first parents, who chose a different tree, who chose the. Who chose the tree of death in the garden, who chose against the Lord's law. And when the souls in purgatory are joined to that same will, they're conformed to Christ. Again, this is image, conformity. They're conformed to Christ and they're bound to him. And their will is their own, but they are choosing with. With Christ as opposed to choosing against Christ. Choose, choosing a sin. So it's a refashioning of that. Of that right choice, which makes them who they were meant to be, instead of the. Instead of the sinful and distorted version.
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Yeah, very well said. I think too. Just fasting, just like the power of fasting. So if we shift like into a moral read. So this is Lent. The Church asks us to fast. Most people are fasting or abstaining from something. And here I think we're seeing. Because again, the Purgatorio is like a spiritual map. It's not just offering you a fun adventure. It is a listen. If you struggle with gluttony, here are the things that you can pull in to start to combat this vice in your life. And it's one of the things that I just deeply appreciate about this text. And it really does show you, I think, the power of fasting. One thing I felt was really funny, though. Coming back to his friendship with this guy is the other thing Dante's like. Is like, wait, how are you already here?
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Oh, this is such a good part.
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I thought this was really funny.
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He's like, oh, for sure you'd be lower.
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You're a terrible person. How are you already up here? I love this, because that's a line like 87. The guy's like, oh, yeah. The sweet suffering by my weeping of my Nella. My wife. My. My beautiful, virtuous wife is praying for my soul. And so I'm already up here. I just. It was just a fun. I just. I don't know. I like it.
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No, it's a. It's fantastic. And actually, this. This is one of the things that I wanted to talk about, because, of course, one of the major themes is. Is time. Um, and here, this line in the Italian in 2384, it's. I guess that's a little bit. No, that's right. That's right. That's right. Where we are. Dove tempo per tempo si ristora, where time is restored for time. And so there's this. There's this question about time in Purgatory, because it's not earthly time, but it's connected in a way. Some important thinkers recently had picked up on this, including one that I know you love, Deacon, including Pope Benedict in Space Alvi. And so he writes about this mystery of the time of purgatory and the time on Earth and the connection they're in, because, of course, it doesn't translate literally. Earthly time is not time in purgatory. But Pope Benedict says in his encyclical Letter on Hope, our lives are involved with one another through innumerable interactions. They are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine in what I think, do, say, and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others, for better and for worse. So the Pope continues. My prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of being, my gratitude to the other, My prayer for him can play a part in his purification. And for that, there is no need to convert earthly time into God's time. In the communion of souls, simple terrestrial time is superseded.
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Yeah. It's a beautiful picture. Yeah. And shows, I think, too, how embodied purgatorio still is for us. Like even that we have to rest, that there's a. There's a nighttime and the Souls have to rest as they kind of ascend up the mountain. No, it's very good. And I think that too, particularly for like the non Catholic listeners. One of the things that we've been talking about, which you just alluded to, was that in the Catholic faith we take quite seriously the resurrection. And everyone's like, oh, we all take seriously the Resurrection. What does that mean? Well, the conquering of death and that the Church itself then supersedes death. And so those souls that are in purgatory and those who are in heaven and those who are on earth are all participating in the Church. The Church actually exists in these three
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states and then in the next Canto.
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Yeah. And so because of that, then we have this like relationship in which we can actually assist each other. So no, these, these points are very, very good. So then we get. Apparently there's this big problem with the women, the Florentine women, who according around line hundred or so, those bold faced Florentine women, not to go about while burying their breasts and nipples. So then we get a denunciation of the Florentine women. You live in Rome. Not really sure if this is a problem over there, if you've seen this, but this is what the rest of this canto is, is this denunciation of these women, which I think is.
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I do like that there are plenty of churches here in Rome that won't let you enter it without your shoulders covered.
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Oh, really?
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I do like that. Yeah, I think it's fantastic.
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A
That is good. And I do think it's really interesting that it's then juxtaposed with Nella. So we just got an example of a righteous, virtuous woman who is praying for her dead husband. It's by the merits of her virtue and holiness that he is then ascending quicker than he would have otherwise. And that it's juxtaposed immediately with. Yes, but look at the women of Florence, which, not to make anyone feel left out, if you've read Dante up to this point, there's about every category of human possible in Florence has been denounced by Dante up to this point. He's very, he's very egalitarian.
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He's not picking just on the ladies yet.
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He's very egalitarian in everyone. And we saw this in hell. Everyone gets to go to hell. Florence is populating, it seems like half of it. So yeah, I mean, just. I love Dante. Obviously we could spend a lot of time in Canto 23, but any other kind of final thoughts before we jump off?
- [30:10]
B
Yeah, the last thing I want to bring up, and it's related a little bit to this question. On time, though, around 1:21, still wearing this true flesh, I came into and through the darkest night of the true dead with the soul as my guide. So he's giving a little recap, to phrase it. Wren from there, sustained by him, I came up here climbing and ever circling round this mount, which straightens in you what the world has bent. Which straightens in you what the world has bent. And so the whole idea here is recognizing we've been twisted by things that ought not to be, and that the fundamental work taking place in Purgatory is a kind of setting of things. Right. You know, the church has had a long tradition of indulgences, understanding that there. There are ways spiritually which we can account for what is lacking in our lives. And I think this is a place where we see a reference to that idea, truly, where already, even now, we could be undertaking these important spiritual works and be refashioning, remaking what is bent in us.
- [31:17]
A
Yeah, to be made beautiful as Christ is beautiful. We've talked about this a little bit. One of the things that I recently was writing about was how. How often we misunderstand the Christian spiritual life. Like, we reduce it to not sinning. Like we think that's the goal. Like, just don't sin, right. Christianity becomes a list of. It's reduced to a list of don'ts. But in reality, you know, St. Gregory of Nyssa talks about the soul having wings and not sinning. Like sin is like a muck, like a thick crust that gets on your wings. And you can't. You can't soar, you can't fly. You can't go up to these celestial delights that our Lord has called us to. But so many people think the point is just to have clean wings, but they don't ever soar. They don't ever try and actually configure themselves to Christ. And so Christianity gets reduced to this list of just don't do these things and you're good. That's one reason I really like the Purgatorio is because showing this type of ascent, and then, of course, then we don't end here, then we go up into. I think Dante here, obviously is a great spiritual master and really offers you a very authentic understanding of the Christian spiritual life.
- [32:22]
B
Completely agree.
- [32:24]
A
Let's jump into Canto 24. So this was interesting to me. There's a few things here at the beginning that I don't know if I have a whole lot to comment on. And then we get into the two trees and some things towards the end that are really fascinating, but towards here at the beginning one, we get asked, wait, where's your sister? He asked his friend, where's your sister? And we find out that she. This is line 10. Oh, she's actually already up in Beatitude. She's actually already up in heaven, which we'll see then in the next volume of the Divine Comedy. And then he sees a few people who he recognizes or he's told who they are. One of them is actually Pope Martin iv, who, apparently, rumor had it, died by eating too many eels cooked in wine. Just really loved these eels and just
- [33:08]
B
got over eating until.
- [33:09]
A
I mean, who amongst us has not done that?
- [33:12]
B
That is possibly the most Italian thing in. Well, you know. But something he ate, you know, that's what it was. That's one of the things I've learned is that talking about food is very important here, you know, and being an Irish American for the Midwest, this is very novel to me, probably because our food isn't really worth talking about. But here you just talk about food constantly. And. And so it's no surprise then that it must have been bad eels and too many of them that caused poor Pope Martin IV to die.
- [33:45]
A
Yeah, he's an interesting. He's an interesting Pope.
- [33:49]
B
Before we get too much for that, I want to pause on who Picarda is, because, you know, she's a sister of Farese, right. And, you know, we find her in paradise, but the. But the other brother is in hell. And what I think is interesting about this is that the family is spread out across. Across the realms. And I want. I wanted to pause and highlight that because it's one of the most relatable things, I think, in the comedy is that all of us have family members who are. Who are above us in paradise, who are near us. We're in purgatory now, so I'll say we're in purgatory and. And who are. Who are far from us. And I think that that's actually a very touching thing, because that's part of the agony here. Right. He's asking, do you know where she is? Where is my sister? And wanting to still be connected even though they're not in the same place.
- [34:38]
A
Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. And we saw that, too, a little bit in the Inferno as well, which I think Dante the poet handles in a really interesting way, in which. Yeah, I mean, the loss of friendship, the loss of family. Right. To eternal damnation. These kind of things, wanting to go back and help friends and family know. It's almost like a. From Lazarus, right? And the rich man, can I. Could I please go back? So, no, that's a good. That's a good point. Yeah. On Pope Martin, the reason he caught my attention outside the eel episode is that he also excommunicated the Greek emperor. So he's part of the reason that that schism just cannot heal. He also turned the future Boniface VIII into a cardinal, which Dante is really not going to like. We've talked about Boniface VIII multiple times throughout the comedy. He then runs into this. This young poet. So it's interesting. Dante the poet does things that are really interesting here, because sometimes, actually, we'll see this. So here someone runs into him who admires him. At least how I read this is that this person admires Dante. And Dante's like, okay, thanks. You know, great. And then a little later, Dante will run into a poet that he admires. It's interesting how I think this is one of those things that it's not as disordered as we saw in the Inferno, where people's minds were still completely warped on the temporal. All they did was care about what was going on on earth, et cetera. It's interesting here in Purgatory, everyone's not quite purged yet. And so it's interesting how they relate to one another and how they like the accolades they give one another. I'm always curious when I read these, like, is this going to get purged somewhere up the step? Does that make sense? Like, is this praise of Dante purified yet? Or is it still, like, hanging on to certain temporal things that don't matter anyway? Yeah, there's just some things I was thinking about.
- [36:30]
B
Yeah, fantastic. I mean, another character we've got in here that's interesting is we've got another Boniface. This is not Boniface viii, the hated Boniface. Part of what Dante is fussing about here, you know, he said, I saw. Describing him, he says, I saw two souls for hunger chewing air. Ubaldino de la Pila, Boniface, who with his crook led multitudes to graze. I saw Lord Marchese. Okay? But what I think is interesting about Boniface is that the reason he's in Purgatory is because he hasn't led souls to feed on the word of God. We've got the evocative image from the prophets in the Old Testament, from the prophet who's told to eat the scroll to eat the word. Right. And the early Dominicans loved this image that studies kind of eating, a consuming of the sacred word. I mean, that's the thing that makes you full. And so many times when you eat, actually, this is why it's so brilliant that he makes this transformation here and then that he puts us in here so many times when you're eating, you're looking to fill yourself, but it's not actually a problem with your stomach. You're not hungry, you're bored, or you're sad, or you're lonely, or you're tired, or you're something else. And the eating doesn't fill it. And the only thing that's gonna fill it is actually something spiritual, something in your psyche, in your soul. That's where the problem is. So eating the word of God is. Is part of the answer.
- [37:57]
A
Yeah, I like that a lot. Like where. Where does true satiation come from? And as you mentioned, so the kind of reordering of that appetite, what are you actually trying to satiate in your soul through gluttony? And how does that need to be reordered where you have a proper understanding of food, and then you satiate that part of the soul that needs to be kind of in God properly so the soul can actually rest? No, I like that a lot. Any thoughts on, like, the poet or anything? I mean, personally, I want to skip to when we get to the two trees, and then we start getting some examples. Anything, though, about this young poet or anything like that.
- [38:30]
B
I think what's important, again is we get more. More about. More references to this love. To the. To the. To the love poetry. So for our listeners, for our friends following along, that's. That's what's key. When Dante's talking about new poems, we're getting a kind of criticism, a soft criticism of courtly poetry that has no place for the will. And since I brought that up earlier, I don't. Don't think we need to belabor that.
- [38:54]
A
But it is something that kind of haunts a lot of these texts, right? And how can. I mean, we've found this. We've seen this several different times in different ways, right? So Dante, the poet, we see that he has this courtly love, but then he has kind of adopted it. He's done something different with it, right? Where Beatrice serves as an icon of God's love, that her beauty then leads him to God. And we've seen this several times. But then, like, for instance, in the Inferno, probably one of the most famous examples, if you have Francesca and Paulo amongst the lustful, right. So what are they doing? Well, they're just sitting around together reading, you know, adulterous stories of Lancelot and Guinevere. Again, like, you know, who amongst us and what happens that leads them, that kind of courtly love, disordered courtly love leads them then into adultery. Right. Paula was her
- [39:47]
B
husband's younger brother.
- [39:49]
A
Yeah. And so that's really interesting because one of the reasons, like, one of the theories then, of why that impacts Dante so much outside the fact I think he's still pities the damned and his. His soul or his will is not configured to the divine yet, is because then he's actually seeing that this type of poetry can actually condemn people to hell. It actually leads people into mortal sin. And so, yeah, I think you're really right to kind of flag this again, because he keeps running into these poets, and I think an. An overarching question is, like, what's the teleology of this poetry? Like, does it. Does it lead people to what's true, good and beautiful? Or does it lead people into sin? And if they praise each other, right, you have to be careful because sometimes they praise each other for techniques, devices, you know, these kind of things that are novelties. But then the day I think Dante, the pilgrim is learning, like, wait, what. What does this actually orient man towards through this poetry? And that's what actually determines whether it's good or bad.
- [40:42]
B
And for. For listeners, you know, to be thinking, okay, so maybe your problem is not medieval Italian courtly poetry. Okay, fine. But what. What is it that allows or twists your view of things? I. I realized many years ago I couldn't listen to Norah Jones when I was sad. I just. I just love Norah Jones. But there's certain kinds of music, right, that will. Will twist your emotions beyond what you can control or not. You know, not watching something when you're tired and vulnerable, being. Being brave enough to turn off Netflix. You probably. You probably already are that person if you're listening to the Ascend podcast. But. But to encourage you, right. And to be attentive if there are other things that are. Are working, that kind of twisting within you to. To allow them to be straightened.
- [41:24]
A
Yeah, that's a great. That's a great moral read. Yeah. One thing I think my parents told me younger, that has always helped me is like, if I have music on or anything like that, would I ever tolerate reading this? We tolerate a lot of things because it's somehow it's put to music, then it's, like, morally acceptable. But would I ever tolerate Sitting down or reading this, or would I ever read this out loud to anyone else? And so, no, I think there's lots of ways in which that type of poetry, just broadly speaking, the poetics, sometimes that beauty can be misleading. And we engage in things that we really ought, we really shouldn't. And then it, you know, obviously leads us down a path, like Paulo and Francesca or some of the souls that we have to see here that made it, but still have to be purged. So the two. So we get at 105 this terset. This is where they explain the two trees that there are. And now we're at the tree in which they see everyone, like everyone's hungry, and they look up and there's the fruit, and there's also drink, if I remember correct, that they can have, but they can't get any of it. And so it says here, I want to go back to this. Because it was to your point. Yeah, at 1:12. So they're. They're yearning for this fruit. But in contemplating the examples and in contemplating what happens, it says they walk away, and they come away. Then. Then they all departed now, wise. So they're having a spiritual experience. They're growing in virtue. So they see that which they think they want, what they desire. And what ends up happening to them in purgatory is that it's then a catechetical moment for them to understand what it is they truly want. And then they walk back to the other tree, and then they come back, and then they have to go through this process again until they can actually reorder the soul and put the goods in proper hierarchies. Where's God? Where's food? Where are we actually finding our true, like, beatific happiness? And this just keeps happening until they're
- [43:15]
B
properly formed, pass on. Do not come closer. Higher up, there is a tree which gave its fruit to Eve, and this plant is an offshoot of its root.
- [43:26]
A
Yeah, that's fascinating.
- [43:27]
B
And so, again, just. Just to belabor the point, because it's so fundamental, it's so important, Dante is telling us that our desires must be subjected to reason, that we must intentionally practice virtue, and that we are led, as you pointed out, by wisdom. And Eve's sin is a false seeking, a false wisdom that leads to an indulgence of this vice. Ultimately, incontinence is the word that Aristotle uses, Right. For these kind of indulgences of the passions, to not reining it into, not being able to control it. But all of us can do that. And I think it's diffic, um, because frequently today in the news, we see stories and examples on social media of people who are just incontinent, who are not subjecting their passions and desires to their reason and they are doing bad things because of it. So what? Seeing this in Dante is helpful because it reminds us, oh yes, this is actually the Christian vision, you know, to not take off all of our clothes off in the middle of an airplane because we didn't get the service we wanted.
- [44:34]
A
Right.
- [44:34]
B
You know, like, we see videos like this that show up every, every day, really, thanks to the algorithm. But to tell ourselves to pass on, to not come closer, because we know what this is. This is a tree that comes from the other tree. Subject your desires to wisdom and move on and continue to be purified.
- [45:00]
A
Yeah, it's a wonderful point. And it dovetails well into your earlier comment about this kind of sub motif of freedom throughout this. So Eve is more free in not taking of the fruit. Taking of the fruit is actually not a true act of freedom. And yeah, I'm glad you highlighted that because I thought that was really fascinating that this tree, now that's in Purgatory, is an offshoot of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So here's this thing that you think you want, but you really don't need it. But notice then that they are then doing maybe what Eve and Adam should have done, in which they're then contemplating it. They're not eating it, they're contemplating it. And they're growing in wisdom. Right. They're growing and configuring themselves to Christ in this kind of two treed garden, which obviously is also an illusion. But we're going to see the other tree here pretty quick. As we continue up the ascent of Mount Purgatory, we get our negative examples. So this is like 121. We get the centaurs. I kind of found this funny because the centaur, if you know, anyone knows anything about Greek mythology, they could be the bad example for almost anything.
- [46:01]
B
Anything like, anything.
- [46:04]
A
I read my kids the Greek literature, the Greek myths and we love them. It's just great. But yeah, there's always a stories like. And then they, and then they thought it was wise to invite all the centaurs to the wedding. And you're like, yeah, this is going to be an absolute bad idea.
- [46:17]
B
Right? Don't invite the centaurs to anything ever.
- [46:20]
A
That's your moral takeaway from today's episode. Don't invite centaurs to things. But here they're being used as, you know, for gluttony. They're very easily. Could be used for lust. The Inferno actually uses them for violence. If you remember, they're actually galloping around the river of blood. The tyrants and et cetera are being boiled. So we have this in charge. And then we had. I thought this one was interesting, is that then we have Gideon. And here we have, remember, Gideon, he leads the Lord's armies against the Midianites. And this is one of those classic things where the Lord doesn't want them to think that they have the victory. So I think everyone who's afraid gets to go home. And then the Lord has them all drink and they drink. And those who, if I understand correctly, those who then kneel down and basically put their face in the water and drink like dogs versus those that actually kind of cup it, which is, you know, they're more like ready for action. The ones that lap like dogs get to go home. And the ones that actually were drinking while ready for battle stay. And that's only like 300 of them. I thought that was a really fascinating, though, example for gluttony. Out of all the examples of gluttony that you can give, which is typically always going to be like an overeating, right. Oh, here's this, like morbidly obese such and such. Like that example, actually, both of them, I thought was kind of fascinating.
- [47:35]
B
One who's. One who sticks his face in, they're. They're more nuanced. Yeah, definitely.
- [47:40]
A
Well, I think it shows one of the things Aquinas talks about this. We talked about this a little bit when we went through the Inferno as well, is that we said it, but I just want to highlight it, that gluttony here is a disordered relationship to food. We typically think of immediately overeating. That's. That's what it is, is to overeat. But really it could be just any type of disordered attachment to it. And Aquinas gives multiple different ways that can be. So here with the Gideon, the Gideon's men, you see then that they're not like, you know, are they being gluttonous by drinking the water? No, they allowed their desire for food to override what they should have been doing, which was remaining vigilant. So therefore, food became a. Even drinking water became a disordered good. It disordered the hierarchy that their soul should be actually acting within. So it's a nuanced example, but I think it pushes us outside of, oh, I'm fine on gluttony, because I don't overeat. And it's. Unfortunately, you can't escape that quickly.
- [48:39]
B
Yeah. Very well said. Towards moving on. When we get to the angel, I think there's something very interesting there because, of course, the angel who comes reminds us of the angel that guards the garden now, when Adam and Eve were vanished. Right. And who were left out. And so Dante has this experience of being blinded by the brilliance of the angel, but also cooled by the angel's presence. And I think what's interesting here is that the distinction of the kind of relief of purgatory. Purgatory is a sweet place. I mean, this whole realm is so much happier and more joyful than Hell, obviously, because the souls are now separated from God and their suffering has no kind of. No alleviation. There's nothing sweet about it. There's no relief. And so you get the fierce angel I know who's standing here, but whose wings are a kind of cooling fragrance. This is very curious and I think really, really strikes at the difference between Inferno and Purgatorio.
- [49:50]
A
Can I stack a little bit on top of that? I agree with all of that. And then there's another oddity here in which. So we have Virgil, Dante, the pilgrim and Statius that are all walking through this. And this is the. I'm kind of just. This is a raw thought. So. But it's really interesting to me that they're talking and they're kind of meditating. They're going thoughtfully. It says they're thoughtfully. They've seen this thing with gluttony. They're moving through thoughtfully. They walk right past that says, at the tirsit, the brown line 141 says, if you would like to keep on climbing, you need to turn around. It's here that those who long for peace ascends. That really. I don't know what to make of it, but I thought was really fascinating that the three of them have really kind of learned a lesson here and they're still contemplating it and walking it. And I'd like to go back and count the cantos because we actually have spent a good amount of time on the terrace of the gluttonous. Some we moved through real fast. I mean, Acadia. We were through in like half a canto. Like, we're here, we're out, we're gone. Here on the terrace of gluttony, we actually have dwelled a bit. And that can. Everything in Dante has a meaning. So I was kind of contemplating, like, what does that mean, why would Dante the poet have, you know, his. His little character here, Dante the Pilgrim spend more time here. And even when it's time for him to leave, he is still enamored, or not enamored, but he's still contemplating. And it's not just him. Dante the Pilgrim does tons of stuff that's kind of off, but Virgil and Statius are both in a thoughtful state of contemplation, and the angel has to pull them back to ascend. I just not entirely sure what all I want to make of that, but it's an oddity that I think deserves
- [51:21]
B
to be flagged, certainly. And then, as you said, and we get a Beatitude, and then here, this one, we get something special within it. So I want to linger a bit on the Beatitude on the closing lines here at this Canto. And then I heard, blessed are those whom grace illumines, so that in their breasts the love of taste does not awake too much desire, whose hungering is always in just measure. So the. So in the Italian, esoriendo sempre quanto e giusto means hungering only in due measure. So temperance, or hungering after righteousness, as in the Beatitude. And it's really fantastic that it's just both, you know, hungering after righteousness, meaning to exercise the virtue or to live the Beatitude according to the Gospel.
- [52:14]
A
Yeah, no, well said.
- [52:15]
B
Fantastic.
- [52:16]
A
Yeah. I appreciate you highlighting that. Yeah. The way he. Again, I tell people, I realize I have beaten this horse to death, but this book gives you a map. It gives you things to contemplate, it gives you things to pray, it gives you stories to read, it gives you everything that if you're fighting with one type of vice or another, here is this entire arsenal, right. This entire choir of things that can help you. I think his kind of meditation through the Beatitudes is. Merits its own study. It's. It's wonderful. Okay, pushing into Canto 25. So we're leaving gluttony. We're going into lust, thanks to the angel. And Dante asks a question which I thought was kind of interesting because it's a question that we've had for a long time, which is basically, wait, how are the shades thin? How are they gaunt? Like, how are they starving if they have no need of food? And so we're going to get. This is a canto, I think that throws people for a loop a little bit, but we're going to get a kind of short speech on the relationship between the soul and the body. And Then we're even going to get into, like, embryos. And like, wait, how does life even come about? Right, right.
- [53:29]
B
Which is. I'm pretty excited for this because it's so. It's so nerdy and medieval.
- [53:34]
A
This is why you've signed up for this one. You're like, yes, this is my favorite part.
- [53:38]
B
I forgot that this was in here. I was thinking more about. I was thinking more about lust because it's so fantastic, actually. So the best things await us, but. But here in this canto, to jump right into it, because. Because there. There are two beautiful things that happen very quickly in sequence. So Donda gives us a full fourfold account of their. This question, you know, how. How have they become so lean since they have no need for food? All right, so he gives us a mythological answer, gives us a mythological response from Meleager, who was the most famous warrior on the Argo, who ends up died because his mom throws a log that his life was tied to in the fire. Right. Isn't that what killed him? Something is. Something very strange like that.
- [54:20]
A
Yeah, his life was tied to a log, and so she pulled it out of the fire, and so then he basically could live forever. Long story short, he ends up having to mur her brothers and she gets mad at him and goes. Throws his log into the fire.
- [54:32]
B
That's right. Okay, so it was that she saved it first. I knew there was something in there that I'd.
- [54:37]
A
Yeah, don't make your mom upset, is the moral.
- [54:39]
B
Otherwise she'll throw your life log in the fire. Okay, so we've got this account, a kind of mythical account of preservation, then looking into a mirror, which he offers as a. I don't know, a kind of quasi science. It's not a scientific account. It's more like a. It's more like a philosophical example, because then we get a more scientific account where the doctor is looking at the open wound. And then finally we get an eschatological account. God's view of things is different than your view of things down in 33. So it's a. It's a pretty cool span. He's giving us all the sources. He's saying, no, we have an answer to this in mythology, in physics, or ancient philosophy, in science, the mystery, you know, the work of healing, the doctrine, and then eschatologically standing before God and this question of the nature of the body.
- [55:32]
A
Right.
- [55:33]
B
That's what Dante's exploring here. And then we get the really weird stuff, which is the science stuff, which is. Which is all the creation of the blood. So essentially, you can correct me here, because I'm going to just throw everything out. But from what I was reading and preparing, he's following what Avicenna says happens to our blood. So when we. When we digest food, first it goes to the stomach, and then according to Avicenna, it's further processed in the liver and then in the veins. That imperfect blood that is, is produced by the. By the work of the stomach and the liver. That imperfect blood is purified, made into perfect blood, which then goes to the heart and then some of it is turned into sperm, which produces life.
- [56:17]
A
Yeah, so it's like the. It's an. I mean, it's funny to read, right? But the poetic picture there is kind of beautiful, right, because the. That perfect blood then gets infused with the informative virtue of like, who. Who are you as a person? And it's that, like, purified, perfect, informative virtue blood that is going to get transformed into semen. And then the male, right, is the active part, then the female, which is then the recipient, the reactive part. And it's in that, then that life takes place. But even in that, what's interesting is that, is that then how they talk about then the development of life. So again, I think pulling from Avicenna and just kind of. And which is then Aristotle's underneath that. Is that his theory he puts forth here, if I understand correctly, is the theory that the soul actually goes through the gradations until it actually becomes, right, a human soul. So this is. This is a little different than. Than how we hold it today. And obviously, for multiple reasons, we have
- [57:19]
B
to make some passes through the vegetative to the sensitive and ultimately to the. Yes, exactly. Sorry, please.
- [57:25]
A
For those who aren't familiar, you know, Catholic teaching has the idea that there are different types of souls. So the humans have what we talk about all the time. We have a rational, immortal soul. However, soul, Latin anima, things that are animated, right? Animation that have life is more than just humans. And so we have plants, and so they have vegetative souls. And those vegetative souls have, you know, certain powers. They can grow, they can take in nutrients, they can do things like this. Then you have sensitive souls, right, that we get the animals. You even see that name, right? The anima. An animal is one that actually has movement, a soul. These are sensitive souls. They have the five senses, if you will, right? And so these are things that are more alert. And the more you go up the hierarchy of being, the more the beings participate in reality. So you have an oak tree. And, you know, Colorado mountain dogs in my backyard are participating in reality more than the oak tree, because my dogs have these senses. They can see things, they have emotions, et cetera, but they're not rational. And then you have man, which we have this rational soul. And what's interesting is that as the souls go up, they for the most part, assume the powers of the lower one. So the sensitive souls also can take in nutrients, can also grow, can also reproduce. And the rational soul that we have can do all those powers as well, even though those powers play out differently in different types of bodies and things like this. So what's interesting here, in their kind of science that they give, is that they have a gradation of the soul moves from this part until, let's see where this is.
- [58:53]
B
It's quickened, essentially.
- [58:56]
A
Yeah. So line 70, basically, what ends up happening says once the brain has been articulated to perfection within the fetus, the first mover turns to it with joy, delighted at nature's art, and then breathes into it a spirit replete with virtues, entirely new. So in this theory, the matter basically becomes ready and to be a recipient of the property, rational soul. And then it's only at that moment, not at conception, but at this moment, that God then breathes in new life to it, which is interesting. One of the commentaries I was looking at is this is why they think that Statius has to explain this and not Virgil, because this is where it takes on a particularly Christian element, is at this moment where the first mover does. So anyway, it's an interesting theory. I think we. We probably should make some distinctions about it. You probably can see, I'm not an expert here, but you can see then some of the problems in the medieval debates about the Immaculate Conception. So you can see, you can see quickly why there are problems here with the Immaculate Conception. Because if your idea is that, well, you start as a vegetative soul, and then you go up to a sensitive soul, and then you get prepared, and then God breathes into an intellectual soul later down the process. It's not at conception that you're a human, it's later on that you're a human. So you see, you can see then why a lot of times our theology is predicated upon a proper understanding of science, so we can actually understand when life begins. You also get the understanding and say, like even today at life of conception, that the soul immediately upon the animation is a human soul. It's a rational soul that can then work that matter towards its theological end, as opposed to the matter having to get to a certain extent and then receive the rational soul. Does that make sense? Because those are two different ways of looking at it.
- [60:55]
B
What Dante's really arguing to further underscore this, recapitulate and extend, I guess, is Dante is arguing again that we are our bodies and our souls, we're hylomorphic. Right? That's the Aristotelian word. So the. So the purpose of the fourfold example, previously, okay, with Meleegar, with. With the myth, his body dies because his life force in the log is thrown into the fire. When you're looking in the mirror and you move, you yourself move. You don't. You don't say, my body moved. No, it's you who moves. So you have a kind of natural experiential knowledge of physics. The body is healed. I was healed in the medical example. Eschatologically, you stand before God, and on the last day, we get our bodies back. And so Dante is not content to have just spirits roaming around in a kind of ghost town. All of this is emphasizing the body, which is one of the constitutive parts of Christian doctrine about the last things.
- [62:02]
A
Yeah, I really like that because at least the way I read it, which, I mean, please push back on any of this. Is that because what's he again, we got keep in mind, what's the question he's trying to answer? Well, the question Statius is trying to answer is, how can these souls look gaunt? They don't even need food. Well, now he has to go back and start this whole process. And now we're having to get into the fact of, like, wait, how do these souls that are disembodied actually have bodies to begin with? Which is something that we've kind of, you know, talked about since we were in the Inferno. Now, what I took, took from this, which I thought was really interesting, is that the soul as the form, as you. As you mentioned, right, we're composite creatures of soul and body. And so the soul is in an unnatural state without the body to such a degree that it acts on that around it, the air to create, like a body. So they have these shades. He has an interesting line at one point where he talks about, like, how you can see light when there's, like, moisture in the air. So soul, like, so craves a natural state of being in the body that it creates a body of this air around it. And then, of course, then that body takes on the elements of the soul itself. So if the soul is being purged and going through a purgation about gluttony, then it has an effect on what this air body kind of looks like, which it's just kind of a fascinating thing. We can laugh at that. I think some real questions that I have there, which I don't have answers to are, you know, because you got. We got this in Plato, too. We got some pushback, right? So, like at the end of the Gorgias, Plato, a myth, a beautiful myth, actually, that I very much like is very much captured my imagination of souls being judged after death. And the soul is bruised and bloody, right. As a tyrant beats his slave, so does the unjust man beat his own soul. And so when your body's stripped from you, you can't have rhetoric, you can't have beauty, you can't have any of these things. It's just what you actually are. For Plato, it's more what you actually are. And if you've had an ugly life, this kind of sick, ugly, you know, vicious life that can't hide anymore, and your soul's sitting there bruised and battered, we got some pushback on that of like. Well, you know, this doesn't really make a lot of sense. The soul, you know, is immaterial. It can't do this. Dante runs into the same problem, giving this poetic picture, but then also, you can't escape it, because even our Lord. So when our Lord gives the story of Lazarus and the rich man, it's Abraham's bosom, because Lazarus lays on his chest, but he has no body. Neither one of them have a body. So this. It's an interesting thing, I think, and I. I'm not wise enough to articulate it, but I think Thomas gets into something adjacent to this when he tries to talk about how the angels who have no body show up, can move things, right? They move. And how they. And also how they. They show up bodily to people. Yeah, there's like, a similar conversation that he has. So it's something you can, like, laugh at. Oh, it's just a poetic license, et cetera. But I do think it actually has some interesting theological underpinnings.
- [64:57]
B
Before we conclude on that, I just want to read to you several lines from Canto 6 from Inferno, which is, of course, the third circle, which is gluttony, where this conversation, you know, was had before. So Dante says, you know, he's asking the similar question, like, what's going on here? You know, and he receives the. The following reply. He'll rise no more until the blast of the angelic trumpet. Upon the coming of the hostile judge, each one shall see his sorry tomb again and once again take on his flesh and form and hear which shall resound eternally. So did we pass around that squalid mixture of shadows and of rain, our steps slowed down, talking a while about the life to come, at which I said after the great sentence, O Master, will these torments grow? Or else will they be less, or will they be just as intense? And he said to me, remember now your science, which says that when a thing has more perfection, so much the greater its pain or pleasure. Though these accursed sinners shall never attain the true perfection, yet they can expect to be more perfect than now. Okay, so what does it mean? It means that on the last day, the souls in hell are going to get their bodies back and their tortures will grow because they are. They're going to be reunited with their bodies fully.
- [66:22]
A
Yeah. Everything gets perfected, right? So because you're. You move into perfection as a creature because you're back to soul and body. So if you're in hell, then your punishment is very human.
- [66:31]
B
You're not just a soul.
- [66:33]
A
Right. And if you're going to be in heaven, then your delights are perfected as well. So. No, it's. Yeah, and there's actually, um. That's always really stuck with me because of. There's a similar little speech they have to give when they go through the forest of suicides. Yes, forest of suicide.
- [66:53]
B
Those who hated their own flesh, right.
- [66:55]
A
And they're not giving their bodies back. The trees, ones that aren't given their bodies, they have to actually look there at their own body for all eternity. So now these. Yeah, I mean, this is a deep, deep principle, right, that we are composite creatures of body and soul.
- [67:08]
B
When I was from this canto that's so beautiful, you know.
- [67:11]
A
Okay, so they. Towards the end of this canto, so around line, oh, what is this, like 108 or so? That's where he finally answers the question. And then. Right, because they've been on the journey, probably short journey from the terrace of Gluttony to now lust. And so now we see the flames, we see the fire, right? So the contrapasso of lust. It's kind of an interesting mix, the contrapasso of lust. And really just the finishing of purgatory is this like flame wall that you have to go through. And we're kind of introduced to it around 100. And he sees there, this is at what, 1:21 or so, he starts to Hear the singing, right? So we're getting like, what are the songs, what are the prayers, etc. We get great God of the boundless mercy here. Thou ruler of this earthly sphere, a 7th century hymn sung at matins. And he sees in this. He sees in this too. And we're have to get into this. It's really interesting. Some spirits. This is at like 124 or so. The spirits are moving in different directions. There's two groups. One group is moving contrary to what you think would be going up the mountain, and the other one's moving probably what you would find to be the normative way up the mountain. And these, they're shouting, right? So we get two. Two examples. So this is 127. The first one that we get here is Mary. And she has her line, right? Then said Mary unto the angel, how shall this be seeing I know not a man coming from the Annunciation, her conversation with Gabriel. So this is our first kind of Marian example, as we always have in this kind of liturgy on the terraces of, you know, what is our contrary virtue to this?
- [68:56]
B
Right?
- [68:57]
A
Then we get our second example, which is Diana, which is a lot of people might know as Artemis. So Artemis was the virgin goddess, one of the virgin goddesses in Greek mythology, but one that was known for. Oh, how do we say this? Ferociously defending her own virginity, Artemis. Artemis is beautiful. She likes to take naked baths in the stream. And one of the worst things that could ever happen to you as a Greek is to be a hunter and accidentally stumble upon her, even to look at her. She vigorously defends this and you'll suffer some terrible fate because of it. But on the pagan side, this is a defending of that purity as well.
- [69:40]
B
So a couple things I want to point out before we move on, because there's a lot to be said about the. About the motions and how they walk. Just one that. That they. The shades who are moving about don't leave the flames, you know, so Dante can walk, but they won't leave the flames to make room. They stay in their place, meaning that they are choosing the purification. And that comes up again later, which is all. Which is all part of this conformity of will of our hearts to God's, which. Which I think is so important. And then at the. At the very end, last few lines of this canto, and this I think they do. Sorry. Then the hymn came again. Then came their shouts, praising those married pairs who had been chaste as virtue and the marriage laws require. And this I think they do Continuously, as long as they must burn within the fire, the cure of flames, the diet of the hymns. With these, the last of all their wounds is healed. So part of. Part of how they are healed of their lust is by singing praises to virtuous and chaste married couples, which is phenomenal.
- [70:53]
A
It's beautiful. It's really beautiful because of.
- [70:56]
B
Because, of course, sexuality in itself is not a bad thing. And there are ways to praise it. It's simply that we often praise a distorted and twisted vision. And so part of, again, making right what was bent by the world in purgatory means singing hymns to chaste married couples.
- [71:13]
A
Yeah, No, I appreciate you highlighting that. That is a beautiful, beautiful aspect. And, yeah, I think that's something too. The stress which might be known, but sometimes not entirely acted upon, is that, yes, sexuality is a good. What happens here right at the top of purgatory, we're dealing with excessive loves. So it's not that the thing loved itself is bad, that's a different type of sin, but rather that a good is then loved in a disproportionate way. Right. The same God that died upon the cross, the same God that designed your body and all the things that come with it. And so, yeah, I think there's something here because we typically. I've noticed that, particularly as we talk about sexuality and even Eros, even erotic love in general, which I think we'll see some good examples of coming up here, is we tend to fall either into, like, a Puritan mindset or like a pornographic mindset. And it's hard, I think, to balance and say, okay, no, where. How do we see this as like, a good. But it can be used in disordered ways. And it's. Sometimes it's hard. Augustine talked about this. St. Augustine talked about this. Moderation is more difficult than chastity.
- [72:17]
B
It's. It's.
- [72:18]
A
It's easy.
- [72:19]
B
It's. From my perspective and from my vocation, I would say I agree, and I make my choice. I go to my own bed, you know, and I stay there alone.
- [72:30]
A
Yeah, he gives a. He just. He has a really funny line in there where moderation, it's. It's actually more difficult than just abstaining to actually have the capacity to moderate. So, yeah, it's. No, it's a good point. It's a really good point. One that we probably should explore as we kind of move through the remaining kantos. Okay, so. Canto 26. So now we're seeing him. He's up against this flame wall. He hasn't entered, though, yet. And he's talking to the souls. He sees them in this, like, kind of quasi liturgical procession, which we're going to get explained to us, but we quite don't understand yet why some are moving one way and some are moving the others. And then they also have, like, if understood correctly, they greet each other. There's a kiss of peace, and that's at line 30. As I watch both these groups of shades make haste to kiss each other, although they never stop, content with passing salutations as two line of ants will do. I thought it was really interesting. And again, this. We have to kind of explore this as it moves through the Canto. But I thought that was really fascinating because one of the things I think, Dante, again, he's a love poet, and now we're talking about purging of lust. And so I think he's really, again, like you said, he knows that there's a good here that can't be, like, abandoned. It has to be properly ordered. So I did think it was really interesting that he shows, like, this kiss of peace, right? A liturgical, peaceful, platonic sign of affection between the two groups of souls as they're pursuing their own perfection. I thought it was a really kind of beautiful but subtle touch.
- [74:02]
B
Now then, just after that, which is a lovely moment, now we hear why they're moving in different directions. And this is where things get a bit more. A bit more graphic. So it's a family show, but buckle up, we're talking. We're talking about these things. Dante. So what's curious to remind listeners, and Dante gets a bad rap for this in the Inferno, is that, of course, sexual sin is one of the lowest, or highest, I ought to say highest layers of hell, because in hell everything's reversed, right? The worst thing is our lowest, except for sodomy. So homosexual sins in hell, because their sins against nature, contra Naturum, are closer to the center of hell, and those are more grave. What's interesting here, though, is in Purgatory, all sins against lust, whether homosexual or heterosexual, to use those words, they're helpful in this instance, those who have sinned in the way of Sodom and Gomorrah in the text, that's the word that Dante uses, or those who have sinned in the manner of Pasiphae, who goes after a bull, which is just a kind of ravenous lust. So this is the other way. They're both in the same place in Purgatory. And so some. Some readers, some interpretators, some commentators of Dante say Oh, this is very forward thinking. You know, we can see how this here we find, you know, Dante really doesn't distinguish between these acts. And that's a very lazy and unhelpful reading because, of course, it overlooks the fundamental principles laid out in Inferno. So what's the resolution? Why. Why are in Hell people who have committed sins against lust in two different places? And why in Purgatory are they in the same place? And here Dante gives us a little bit of the psychology of the sin of lust, because here we come to understand that what's being faced is a kind of weakness. And he offers a kind of reason. He offers a kind of reason here. How's that for a setup?
- [76:04]
A
No, that was really well said, and I'm really glad that you mentioned that. I mean, I was just enraptured. You could go on, because that was the question I had, is that that's one of the things that I think is really fascinating about the Purgatory is when things shift. So for instance, we saw this earlier, that in. In Hell, wrath was handled as a sin of incontinence because it was a misuse of something that's good, which is anger. That's another thing that's interesting, that anger is actually a good. But that can be misused. But then in purgatory, it actually gets put down with the misdirected love. And so these kind of changes that he makes. And even like, the changes, but even like one of the best catechetical things is just to compare how sins are punished in the Inferno versus how sins are purged in the purgatory and how that gives you a difference between being handed over to your sin versus being purified from it. But, yeah, your question is one that I think is incredibly apt because I was really surprised I had forgotten this was in here until I read it again.
- [77:05]
B
And both, just to clarify, to sharpen it a little bit more, both are actually presented as unnatural. So the sin of Sodom and the sin of Gomorrah is an unnatural sin, whereas the sin of Pasiphae, who has sex with a bull, is bestiality.
- [77:21]
A
Correct.
- [77:22]
B
Also unnatural. So what Dante is doing is showing that the fundamental disorder here is a kind of selfishness. Pointing back again, we've talked about a sin of incontinence, and we're here at the highest. We're here in the highest of the realms, the highest of the circles of Mount Purgatory. And we see that what's really at stake here is a kind of soul's self Seeking.
- [77:48]
A
Yeah, I think that's really interesting. My. One of my gut reactions here is that it's not that he is lessening lust in a homosexual setting, but rather he's actually showing you the gravity of lust in a heterosexual setting, if that makes sense. Because. Yeah, you're correct. So to use Sodom and God makes
- [78:10]
B
lust, makes us all like animals. Yes, correct.
- [78:13]
A
Right. It's actually dragging the whole thing down, showing you like. No, this entire thing actually ends up with you being bestial. So you can't just, you know, you can't just say, oh, you know, they had a homosexual lust. I had heterosexual. You know, I was very close to love. So even in his own thing, you can tell sometimes how I think he tries to run off or run interference on certain critiques, like, oh, this is the closest to love. It's not that big a deal, et cetera. Actually, you know what? You're like. You're like the woman who had an unnatural attraction to a bull and had Daedalus make this, like, bull outfit for her so she could go get impregnated. And by the way, how's that play out? Well, that gives birth to the Minotaur, which is this horrific half human, half bull creature that eats people in the labyrinth underneath Crete. So, I mean, just the. I really like what you've. You've pointed out there, because I. I do think it's something to take seriously that he is using such a grotesque and bestial example as the meditation for the souls that are being purged of heterosexual lust.
- [79:17]
B
Yeah. Incontinence here, being. Being characterized by troponi. Vigor, too much vigor, a kind of animation of great excess. And again, what we need to be is to be moderated. Moderated according to the norm of reason.
- [79:33]
A
This is also the only time. This is the only time in the purgatory that we have penitent souls going two different directions. We had that a few times in the Inferno. This is the first time that we've actually had it.
- [79:45]
B
Yes.
- [79:46]
A
Up here. No.
- [79:48]
B
And that definitely, again, I think that underscore, because it's the sodomitic souls that are going the wrong direction. And so you get a nice underline there, or an important one, I should say, of the unnatural. Unnatural nature of that sin. So Dante doesn't give it up. He hasn't just left it to the side, but it's. It's more nuanced here. And again, the bigger point being control your passions.
- [80:11]
A
Right. Yeah. I think he's done a marvelous job of trying to show both of these together without allowing either one to attempt to lessen it, if that makes sense. I also really enjoy because I forgot about it where at line 78, those people who go the opposite way share within the same offense for which, in triumph, Caesar heard himself once called a queen. I was like, what? I had to go look that up. So, yeah, they call him. Him Regina. Right. Because they. According to that story, right, he had a unnatural homosexual relationship with another man. And they all found out about it. And so at his triumph, they all started calling him queen.
- [80:48]
B
Fantastic. Immortalized at Dante for such things, I think. Kai. So here again, a little bit later on, we get. We get the beautiful call for prayers. Say apoter nose for us, reminding us again of the connection of time.
- [81:02]
A
Yeah, I really, in this place, I really appreciated. I'm not sure I appreciated the kind of motif of intercessory prayer the first time I read the Purgatorio. And this time, as I read it, it's really stood out to me, particularly as a juxtaposition to the Inferno, where the Inferno, they're all like, oh, remember me. So all they have for a good eternity is, like, their glory on Earth. That's all they have. But then to kind of couple that or compare it to then in Purgatorio there he actually has, like, a benevolency that he can give them. He can pray for them. And they ask for that as part of their own purification. It's just a. It's a beautiful part that I think I need to meditate on more. Okay, Moving into Canto 27, our last Canto for today, probably one of the most famous. So we have Dante, and he's got the angel shows up to him. It's around line six or so. We've got our Beatitude, I believe. Yes, we've got our Beatitude around line eight. Yeah, the pure in heart. Here's what I loved about that. I laughed out loud. I was rereading it this morning, and I laughed out loud at this. Right, so what's happening here? So Dante's afraid. So we're back to Dante, the pilgrimage is afraid. After everything he's gone through with Virgil, he's afraid to step into this fire. And you see Virgil, I love this. So Virgil, around line 19 or so that tercet, he has his line, my son, what's here can lead to suffering, but never to death. And then he gives him, like, a little, you know, memory of like. Okay, do you remember everything that we've gone through? Do you remember Inferno do you remember all this? Virgil shows him, I have been a good guide for you. This is Virgil's history with Dante. And we have to think, like, this is all the way back to. I mean, think of. We've already used her as an example, but think of, you know, the Dante that's kind of lost in the woods, the Dante that faints at Francesca's story. He's presented as being kind of timid and kind of like, weak souled. And Virgil's been working with him and growing. We have seen, I think, a certain maturation in Dante, the pilgrimage. But now here he faces his, like, final challenge, if you will. Here at this last Tirsit. Not tersit. Sorry. Here at the last terrace, the seventh terrace, as we purged lust. But this is what I laughed out loud about. Like, you can do this. You can do it, right? So all of us who are fathers to children, like, we do this all the time. Like, don't be afraid. You can do this. Whatever. Doesn't work. He's just like a little kid, right? Nope, he's just staring at. He has a wonderful line. And when he saw me still and rigid, he said with animation, now, look, my son, the wall's the only obstacle between you and Beatrice. And he's like, oh, okay. Well, I guess I. I guess I gotta do this. I just laugh. I mean, I laughed out loud this morning when I was rereading this because again, I mean, there's so much to be said here. Dante the poet is so. Think about this, right? He take a step back. He is afraid to be purified from lust and this, like, refining fire and all the, like, history of him. And Virgil can't get him to move, but the memory of a woman can get him to enter into this flame. And this is where I think it goes so well to what you mentioned, is that there is a good here. So notice this isn't like, just an absolute purging. I guess one way to say it is. This is not an absolute purging of Dante's sexuality or even his erotic appetite. Broadly speaking, he is actually motivated to be purged of lust, to go through the suffering because of his memory of a woman, Beatrice. And I think the way Dante the poet is playing this up, it's just beautiful.
- [84:49]
B
No, it's fantastic, you know, And Dante describes his joy at hearing her name. Just so my stubbornness melted away. Hearing the name which blooms eternally within my mind, I turned to my wise guide. He shook his head and smiled as at a child won over by an apple, as he said. Well, then, what are we doing on this side?
- [85:10]
A
That's such a great line. I mean, that's like Virgil the dad, right? I mean, it's just wonderful. And I love it because he smiles,
- [85:15]
B
because I don't think we can jump in the pool. We'll get you a Snickers bar. Yeah.
- [85:19]
A
You'll be fine. So I think that. Yeah, he. Well, let me go a little further because she comes up again. So then he does, right? He plunges into the fire. He says. It's funny. He says, I would have cast myself into a vat of molten glass to find refreshment. So that's how hot this is.
- [85:37]
B
It was, yeah.
- [85:38]
A
He says, my gentle father, to strengthen me, kept mentioning the name of Beatrice. Her eyes, I think I see them now. So this is incredible. So not only is she the allurement of him to enter into the flame, but then also, as he's going through the flame and enduring this purging, which is intense, Virgil, human reason, is yelling out the name of Beatrice and then particularly mentions her eyes. And I think that what's interesting here, because I think Beatrice throws a lot of people for a loop, and rightfully so. I think it's a confusing concept, but particularly I think one flag that should go up immediately is the fact that she's not this idea. I think a lot of people think, to put it another way, that the idea of Beatrice will be purged out of Dante in this. In this terrace, because it's lust, right? That he has a disordered relationship. So Dante the poet, though, is not having his relationship with Beatrice or his desire for Beatrice purged out from the fires of this lust, for this purgation of lust. But rather, it's her memory, the thought of her, that is his motivation to go through them. I think one of the things here that I would simply just like to state about Beatrice as we kind of start to unravel her mystery is that I think what Dante the poet has really done well here is he understands the feminine form as an icon of God's beauty, and that a contemplation of a woman, a contemplation of the beauty of a woman can actually be an invitation for the soul to ascend, to go to the beauty of God, not to fall into lust. So we think of that form always in a lot of ways, being an invitation to lust. Dante, the love poet, understands that this form, this feminine form for the masculine is also an invitation for it to ascend. And you see this, I think, in Many different. I mean, you see it even in a pagan context. Think about the Symposium with Diotima and the Ladder of love. The first thing she says that awakens the soul of a young man, that there might be a ladder of love, there might be a way to ascend to higher beauties, is the body of the beloved. Not even the soul. That's the second step. Just the body of the beloved is the first thing to awaken this erotic appetite inside the soul, that there is a beauty. Beauty makes you step outside of yourself. And you see this in, I mean, the Hebrew tradition, Lady Wisdom. Wisdom's contextualized in the feminine, you see, of Lady Philosophy with Boethius, you see it in the Church's bridal mysticism. Deeply. The Church, in a lot of ways, takes on a very deeply feminine spirituality in these readings. So I just think there's something here that's worth mentioning, because Beatrice's idea endures through the purging of lust.
- [88:27]
B
Yes. And I want to underscore this point by suggesting the mentioning of the eyes is a very important thing, because eyes are not the thing that guys talk about, like, oh, I just met this girl. You're not going to believe her eyes. And it shows that Dante's lust is being purified. And furthermore, the eyes, which are the symbol of the image of God. Right. Omo. Written on the face of man, as we talked about earlier, the eyes are the window to the soul. To look into another's eyes is to see the soul of the other. And so when. When Dante talks about seeing her eyes, he's talking about perceiving Beatrice in a very intimate way.
- [89:07]
A
Yeah, she. She is his muse. I like everything you said about the eyes. The stack on top of that, we've seen, I think, and Dante. But it goes all the way back to Plato as well, that the eyes are often an analog to the intellect. Right. They're. They're an analog to something that.
- [89:22]
B
Yes. To see is to understand. Yeah.
- [89:25]
A
You see the beatific vision, for example, that we're moving towards. And so the eyes, yeah, they. They are this analog of the intellect. And this is what Beatrice is going to represent. We have Virgil, which is Beatrice is going to represent grace, revelation, faith, all those things that supersede.
- [89:41]
B
Right.
- [89:41]
A
That are truly supranatural, that Virgil quite doesn't understand. And so that's also why he has to point towards Beatrice. And I think. I mean, I will say, well, we'll see very clearly in the Purgatorio. I don't think Dante, the poet or, excuse me, Dante, the pilgrim's relationship to Beatrice itself has been purified. We have to wait till they actually meet and see how that meeting goes. But what she represents to him in that female form which then can call up that eros in the soul, that erotic appetite to higher things is that divine revelation, faith, grace, all the things that Virgil kind of understands, but only darkly fantastic.
- [90:19]
B
Do you want to say, just by way of conclusion, do you want to talk about the very end?
- [90:23]
A
I think we should, yes.
- [90:25]
B
There's much that could be said about Rachel and all this other business, but I think the key is really where Virgil gets. Virgil stops and looks at Dante and gives him his message. You've seen now, my son, the temporal in the eternal fire. You've reached the place where my discernment now has reached its end. I led you here with skill and intellect. From here on, let your pleasure be your guide. The narrow ways, the steep are far below. Behold the sun shining upon your brow. Behold the tender grass, the flowers, the trees, which here the earth produces of itself. Until those lovely eyes rejoicing come, which tearful once urged me to come to you. You may sit here or wander as you please. Expect no longer words or signs from me. Now is your will upright, wholesome and free. And not to heed its pleasure would be wrong. I crown and miter you, lord, of yourself. Now, the reason this is so fantastic and why I just cut to the end, cut to. The good thing is that we've been talking about image, perfection, and how sin is a distortion and ultimately doesn't make us happy, and it twists us. And we end here with this solemn praise of Dante now by Virgil, who can see that Dante has been purified, that he is more completely himself, that he's the one, that he was made to be, that Dante. That Dante is truly free. And you brought this up earlier, Deacon, but when we were talking about the wrongful conceptions of Christianity, people think the Gospel constrains us. It doesn't. It liberates us. And once we're purified from all of our imperfections and our false desires, it gives us a grander, a glory of life, such that we don't actually have to be constrained by the rules anymore. Because. Because. Because not following them doesn't even enter into our minds. We don't want it. We want only what's good for us. We're not attracted anymore to the kinds of things that will bring us down, you know.
- [92:29]
A
Very well said. I think it's. Yeah, going back to that, just a True understanding of freedom. I mean, well, first off, it's just probably some of the most beautiful lines in the entire comedy. Baxter translates that last line. Well, maybe the last. Like, it's not terset, actually. No longer wait for words or nods from me. Your will is free, upright and wholesome. It would be foolish not to do what's in your heart. I crown and miter you the sovereign of yourself. But I think that for us, and as you very well said, is that it's only now. It's only after he's gone through Inferno, it's only after he's been purified in Purgatorio that his freedom has been configured to the good. So the only reason he can do what's in his heart, which is a phrase for us as moderns that's completely just bastardized because we're very atomized. It's relativistic, like, it's emotional. It's passions, like, go do whatever feels right, man. It's just like, right. Oh, wow. That's what Virgil's telling him right here at the end. What happens here, right, exactly. Is that. No, what's happening is that his soul has been made that image, as you said, he's been made more beautiful, as Christ is beautiful, so. Because then his interior life is an image of Christ, he can do what's in his heart. And so we're seeing then, right, that he has matured past the need for Virgil. Virgil is the analog for human reason. He has now matured past that because his human reason is now in control of his soul, and he has been purified in this, and now he is able to take a step into the earthly gardens. Right. That's what we'll see him next time. So, yeah, probably one of those beautiful passages in the entire comedy. Anything else, though, kind of as we wrap up any kind of final thoughts or anything that we missed.
- [94:13]
B
Read it. Reread it. Re.
- [94:14]
A
Re.
- [94:15]
B
Read it. Reread it. No. Fantastic. And it was really such a pleasure to get to sit down with you and to open up the Purgatorio again, and especially with the Lent in context. Mine, we gave a couple more lessons, but this is the whole aim of Lent, a kind of miniature purgatory. The whole aim of Lent is. Is self mastery, but not in a kind of stoic and senseless way, but in a way that makes us free in a way that's liberating, in a way that opens rather than constrains.
- [94:47]
A
Beautiful. Father Patrick, we really appreciate you being on today and kind of helping us and having this good conversation. To learn more from Dante the master, remind us where people can find more about, like your work, the order, things of this nature.
- [95:00]
B
I'm one of the hosts of the Dominican podcast God Splaining. So you can find us over there@godsplaining.org, all of our social media handles are God Splaining. Or see what the International Ordo Predicaturum Dominican Order of Preachers is up to. You can follow us over@op.org but keep in mind that website's being updated soon.
- [95:20]
A
Right? Your good work is you're still tilling the soil, the fruits are coming, right?
- [95:25]
B
Purification is a long process.
- [95:27]
A
I can imagine. God bless you and your ministry in Rome. But again, thank you, Father. We appreciate it. All right, everyone, join us next week when we are going to discuss earthly paradise, Cantos 28 through 31 with Dr. Michael west from the University of Dallas. In the meantime, go check us out on X, YouTube, Facebook and Patreon. Remember, we have a whole guide to the Purgatory as well. And we'll see you next week. Thank you.