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Ascend - The Great Books Podcast
Q&A on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight with Dr. Justin Jackson
01:41:23
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- [00:00]
A
Day on Ascend, the Great Books Podcast. We welcome back Dr. Justin Jackson of Hillsdale College just to do a Q and A on Sir Gallon and the Green Knight. I really enjoyed reading this poem over Christmas and New Year's with you all. But as you know, there are many things in that poem that are held in tension and there were a lot of questions that I still had about the text and many questions that you all submitted to us on our patreon about the text. So it's wonderful just to have him back on and just do a Q and A now that we've read the poem to kind of just dive deeper into what, what was the intentionality of the poet and including a lot of these details. What's the lesson, the pedagogy that he's trying to teach us? Before we get into our conversation on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, please remember that next week we are already starting our journey into Dante's Purgatorio for Lent. So next week is just an introduction, high level of Dr. Jason Baxter as we discuss his new translation of the Purgatorio. He'll give us an overview and also just kind of tell us what it's like to translate Dante. Please go pick up his translation. It's the one I'll be reading. I'll link it in the show notes along with a discount code for the audiobook which he read of the Purgatorio if you would like to listen to it throughout Lent. And then the week after that, we will start Dante's purgatorio proper with Dr. Donald Prudlow. And by the way, if you're like, hey, I can't read the Purgatorio because I've never read the Inferno, don't worry, last Lent we read the Inferno. So all of our podcasts, all of our YouTube videos, our 80 question guide, all of that is already posted for you. So hey, go ahead, read Dante's Inferno this Lent and then join us for a conversation on the Purgatorio. All these resources are up here to help you read the great books because that is our goal here on Ascend. But before we dive into the Purgatorio today, we have a wonderful conversation on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight with Dr. Justin Jackson, Foreign. Welcome to Ascend the Great Books Podcast. My name is Deacon Harrison Garlick. I'm a husband, father of five and serve as Chancellor and General Counsel for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa. We're recording on a beautiful afternoon here at the Chancery. If you're new to Ascend, where weekly podcast helps guide you through the great books. For example, if you read if you want to read Homer, Sophocles, Aristophanes, Dante, Plato and others, we have podcast videos and written guides to help you or your small group. Go read these great texts. Check us out on X, YouTube, Facebook and Patreon. We appreciate all our supporters who have access to our library of written guides and also to a community chat people talking about the Great Books. Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule and more information. Okay, today is a good day. So we read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight for our Christmas and New Year's read. We had three episodes. They were fantastic. We had a lot of people join us. We are very happy that Dr. Justin Jackson has elected to come back and do just like a Q and A overall view of Sir Gallen in the Green Knight. The first episode we had with him was fantastic. Really set us on the right path. So again, I want to welcome Dr. Justin Jackson to the podcast. He serves as the chair and professor of English and the director of the Writing center at Hillsdale College. Welcome back to the podcast.
- [03:13]
B
Thanks for having me back. I really appreciate the invitation because trying to teach Sir Gawain and the Green Knight when people haven't read the entire thing is. It's darn near impossible. And so it took me, I don't know, probably four or five years of teaching it in class to figure out where's the sweet spot, because you don't want to racing through all four fits to get to that next one. So I think I found a nice balance. But it's so liberating to be able to talk openly about the poem now that the secret has been revealed.
- [03:47]
A
Yeah, well, you know, first and foremost, yeah, I do want to say thank you because I think that you really helped us set on the right path. Actually, I'm really worried if we hadn't had you on first, what kind of path or venture we would have gone on. Because I think what was most helpful for me was the concept of Aeneas being the traitor. Not just because it was surprising to me, but I think the phrase that sticks in my mind is blunder and bliss. So what really helped me understand the poem? I mean, I'm still a student, still learning from it, but what you really helped me understand was that these things are held in tension and we're going to see that tension in characters and acts and et cetera. And then, if I understand correctly, like, obviously the Tension is intentional. But what's happening there is that we're tempted to read it one way or the other. And it's then a moral read that reflects back to us. That was incredibly helpful because once you helped me understand that, it helped me then to try how do I approach? And every. Every major character, but also these major events. And when I felt things were in tension, I was like, oh, okay, this. This is another example of how the poet's kind of inviting us to dig deep into the story.
- [04:52]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, gosh, I think when I read it as an undergrad, I. I forget how old I was. Maybe 19 or 20. Wasn't the first time I read it, but it was the first time I read it carefully. Oh, man, the paper I wrote on that was so God awful, it was just. What a failed night. You failed. Look at your sin of untrouth, this infidelity. What a loser. And now, you know, 54 years old, and I look at the guy and it's like, I get it. I really wanted to see it black and white, right? I wouldn't fall to that temp for that temptation. I'm just so much better than you are because look at. I can read this and I see what's going on. And you broke one piece of that pentagon has all come apart and whatnot. And so it was that very kind of strident reading. In other words, I think I fell for the. The poet. One side of the poet's temptation there to really just be harsh. I think there's another side to that temptation, don't get me wrong. But. But I think that's part of the message of the poem. Can you detect these various things that he's offering to you as a reader? And that takes a slow reading.
- [06:04]
A
Yeah. No, Very good. I. Yeah. Because I love Sir Gallain, like, as a character. Like my heart. Like, I just. I love him as a character. I am still a little worried as I read the poem. I'm being too harsh on him or I can't maybe. Maybe I'm just being recalcitrant towards reads that I think are too easy, if that makes sense. So, okay, I have. I have all kinds of questions about Sir Gallon. Every night, people. We had some people submit questions. But before we get into all that last time, I don't think I gave you all of your proper accolades. So you are also a deacon, correct?
- [06:34]
B
Oh, yeah. I thought you were gonna tell everyone that. For Christmas, my kids got me a hat that says number one dad. So I thought that was the accolade you were going with. But that's fine. I'll take the deacon thing as well. Yeah, so I'm a deacon in the. In the Orthodox Church. Have been for about nine years or so. Teach adult education at my parish. And so I. There are a couple other Orthodox profs here now. I used to. I was the only Orthodox Prof. Here for, I don't know, probably 16, 17 years. Now we have a couple others, so I don't. I don't have to direct the OCF as much any longer. So. So that's nice. But, yeah, it's. It's. It's beautiful to be on a campus that has such rich traditions in, in, you know, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. And, you know, we don't really censor ourselves here. We like to pursue truth in friendship. And so it really is really is a lovely place to teach and to actually to learn from these different traditions. You know, they'll, they'll have readings of scripture. I, you know, I've never, I never really thought of. I'm, you know, I'm a trained medievalist, so I know, you know, exegesis from the beginnings, you know, to 1400. And so sometimes I'll see readings. Like, I'm completely ignorant of that. So it's, it's nice to learn from my students and my colleagues as well.
- [07:54]
A
Yeah, that was fantastic. We also appreciate, obviously, your time and attention coming on the podcast and helping us with Sir Gowan. Okay, so a few questions. So one of the things that still you said on the first podcast, you had a. You had a wonderful phrase in which you kind of gave us a heads up of like, hey, just so you know, the women in this poem kind of loom large in the margins, I think, is what you said, which was a wonderful phrase. Now that we can see the whole picture. Like, I have a lot of questions about this. Not sure what throw everyone a pull, but, like, one. One I have is I'm not sure I appreciate the role of Guinevere or where she pulls in, because we see her at the beginning and then we see her referenced at the end when we actually find out that, like, there was actually this intentionality from Morgan Le Fay that Guinevere would die. What's that? Like, how are we supposed to take Guinevere in this poem overall?
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B
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't, I don't. I don't. I. I'll be honest. I don't know, because she's there again at the beginning. We know that, you know, Morgan le Fay wants to test the court's pride. So whenever. When the green knight comes in and everybody's silent and he says on there, what are these just. But beardless children on the bench? You've all been defeated with one man's, you know, word. And he says, is this really Arthur's roundtable? You're famous across all these lands. And then he says, where's your courage? He says, where's your pride? He asks them directly about that. So we know those are the two reasons that he shows up. You know, there is a great rivalry between Arthur and Morgan le Fay, and I think that rivalry would extend even to Guinevere. There is a third reference there. It's just a very. It's a very quick line, but it should take some students back a little bit. The narrator says something like, with Lady Bertilac, that she may be even more beautiful than Guinevere is. And so there's a sort of. I think the other role of Lady Bertilac and Guinevere. Morgan le Fay is very different. She's the most marginal and yet the most central. Well, there's one other. The Theotokos is. Is equally central. But let's just talk Guinevere and Lady Bertilak, both ladies of the castle, both beautiful, both women that. That Gowan is supposed to pledge his kind of his allegiance to. In that plays off with a sort of parallelism that the poet likes. So I think what you're supposed to do, whenever you guys reread it, thank God it's a short poem. You can reread this thing over and over again. But I think he's trying to compare what does Arthur's castle look like versus Bertilak's castle? And it becomes a question of a challenge of chivalry. So the green knight shows up in soft clothes, and they want to know, are you ready to go to battle? And he says, I'm not even here in armor. Like, if I were in armor, there wouldn't really be a battle at all. I'd just destroy you. Well, look at what happens when Gowan shows up at Bertilak's castle. He's there in his full armor with all of his weapons, and they. And they treat him, you know, with great charity. Let's help him. They aren't afraid of him or anything like that. So I think there's a bit of a play of the parallelism there. Now, let's take the. Let's take the two most marginal women, and I think that's the theotokos Mary and Morgan le Fay. And I think they are supposed to be central because Mary's on the inside of the shield. Supposed to be that fundamental principle of Gowan's faith in courtly romance poetry. So various lyrics. There's a fun interplay oftentimes to a beloved, a worldly beloved. They will use language that is reserved for the Mother of God to show this is how high up on a pedestal I hold you. But then you can reverse it. They'll take courtly love lyrics kind of a, A, a, an eroticism in Bono for the good of coming out of oneself towards that. That, that object of love. But they'll use that language in praise of Mary. And so I think those two. So you have magic on one side and of course, the Mother of God on the other. One that is hidden on the inside of the shield. One that's somewhat hidden, almost hidden out in the open, though, on the margins, but hidden out, out in the open.
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A
Yeah, very good. I. Yeah, that parallel stood out to me a lot between Mary and Morgan le Fay, because I think that what I saw it as is indicative of is the tension between the pagan and the Christian and which one is actually governing Sir Gowan's journey. So at certain times, it seems like, man, he has just stepped right into this trap, this fae magic, pagan, whatever you want to call it, trap. And that's what's moving things. Yeah. But then, remember, he prays to Mary.
- [12:56]
B
Yeah.
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A
And Mary's the one that's in the castle. And so one of the things that I felt was intention was which one of these women is actually governing his actual journey? And you. And you have them being kind of these icons of these two different things. Ultimately, I think Mary wins out. We see how it ends. We also see that it is God's grace. It says at the end of God's grace that led him through it. But that parallelism really stood out to me.
- [13:24]
B
Oh, yeah. And not only that. Remember whenever he prays to Mary in the poem, whenever he's trying to find, you know, the Green Chapel, and then, you know, you want a conflation of magic. In theology, it's the moment he prays to Mary, like, save me from this. And then, boom, here's this castle. And in Middle English, it says. I don't know what Tolkien's translation is, but it says something like, it appeared to be, you know, cut out of. I'll just use the word cardboard. Like, it's so perfect and beautiful. So the very moment he's praying to Mary for Some sort of rescue. He shows up at the abode of Morgan le Fay. That's something even, you know, you just sit there and go, okay, yes, these two forces are, it are at play here and we'll get there eventually. Meaning the two of us talking about this. But you know, that's one of the big questions of the girdle and his use of the girdle. How seriously do we take his use of what appears to be magic? Some critics make a lot out of it. I kind of take a cheat and say, well, this is just part of the genre. So those who really are taking this kind of spiritual reading of it, they take it seriously. Those of us who, that doesn't mean, I don't take it as a spiritual matter. I just don't put everything on the magic of the girdle there. I think, I think he has, I think he has more problems than just the magic of the girdle.
- [14:57]
A
Yeah, I certainly want to talk about the girdle. One other parallelism just on the femininity side that George brought up when we were doing, I think fit four, which I thought was really interesting. And I'm not sure if this is really something you can lay at the poet's feet or really just kind of taking a step back and looking at the legend of Arthur overall. But it was interesting to see the comparisons between, let's just say that the lady of the castle is as beautiful as Guinevere. Fine. Well then Sir Gawain is surviving these three temptations which are laid on pretty thick. And then you compare that to Lancelot and Guinevere, who Lancelot then fails into that and the crumbling of Camelot. I thought there was a really interesting parallel between those two different legends.
- [15:40]
B
Yeah, I mean I, I, I referred to my stupid reading when I was a boy and maybe the dumbest reading I had because I was not a boy but a red blooded male. I did not appreciate the fact that here's a knight with a woman throwing herself at him and he doesn't want to be unfaithful to his lord. On that third temptation, I think it's very, very clear. I mean the Middle English says she pressed on him so hard, making things, you know, I think here, take my course in Middle English, it could be body, but there's some play on words there. She could just be flirting with him. That third temptation, she's not flirting with him. And he knew and he said, I can't betray my lord by going and doing this. So there's a moment of the shaval. Notice what he says. Not betray my God. Not. Oh, no. This. This will destroy my soul. Here comes the chivalric. But here's a positive aspect of the chivalric. That. That trout. I keep using the word trout. It's where we get the word truth, which means a fidelity to somebody. That's why they say you committed the sin of untrith. Infidelity. But not in that moment. He didn't. I think there's something pretty important about what you're bringing up here with regards to Gawain. And if I could just go back a little earlier because she's playing part of. In all of this. When Gawain comes to the castle, the. The one thing that all your readers have to wrestle with because the poem just doesn't make it clear, is how many people are in on it. How many? Is it only Bertilac? Who knows? Is it Bertilac and Lady Bertilak? Well, we know Morgan le Fay. What about the knights? Are the knights all in on this? What about the last knight who's escorting him to the Green Chapel, and he's like, for the love of God, run. What if that's part of the temptation? And what if he's part of this game? Okay, So I say that because as soon as Gawain shows up to the castle, all of the knights are astounded by Gawain, and they're astounded by him. Not because this is the great Gawain who's so glorious in battle. This is Gawain, who's going to teach us about love talking. This is the courtly romance Gawain. He's going to teach us about the games of love. Love. And so he's already being set up again. If they know this about him, then they're in on this game. And this is a snare the whole time. Like this has been. You could go back to fit one. That's why I love the use of the hunting scenes, because Gowan has been hunted from the beginning here. And so I always wonder. And, you know, I can't give a definitive reading here because we don't know, but is this more trying to go after him in a. In a different way than what was there at the castle? And if so, they're picking up on the whole. The whole notion of what courtly romance looks like. And now he's going to teach us about love talking. And Lady Bertilac plays into it. If the green knight at the castle says, this can't be Arthur's court, You guys are just getting shamed by a man who's just talking. Okay, where's your pride? Aren't you guys the greatest knights in all this realm? Here's the narrative of you. Are you going to abide by it? You, Lady Bertablack does the same thing. You can't be Gowen. Gowan, I know, is a great courtly lover, and you won't participate in this courtly love stuff. I think she's gaming him. And I think there's a moment in the poem which I love because the students, I think, go by it too quickly. But on that first day, when she comes in, it's clearly a hunting scene. I mean, the Middle English will use language like, stalks him. She creeps in. But my favorite, and it's. It's nearly comedic, it says there that she sits on the bed next to him and he feigns to be asleep. And then you get this interior monologue, and he says, I wonder what she. I wonder what she wants. Maybe I should just ask her. Like, this is a courtly lover. So in some ways, that's one of the pieces of evidence where I'm thinking, boy, these knights at Bertilak's castle sure are laying some things on pretty heavily here, because he doesn't seem to be the world's greatest courtly lover with the lady sitting on his bed. And he doesn't even know how to respond to this sort of thing. And now, don't mishear me. He may not be a great courtly lover, but he's perfectly chivalrous in the way in which he interacts with her. In other words, if she's being forceful, I think he knows how to play the courtly game of how to keep her at a distance. In fact, there's one moment when they're eating at the table and she starts playing footsies with them. He gets angry. He gets very frustrated that she's doing this in public. Because, remember, you know, let's just take Lancelot Guinevere. I don't know that the problem with Lancelot Guinevere in that was that they were having an affair. I think the problem was that the affair became known. That's not the case here. In Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Everything must be done in private. You don't do that whenever your husband's sitting at the table. You don't play footsies with me. That's violating this courtly game, which means that's violating this sort of chivalrous virtue, whatever that may mean in the Play. But, but I admire Godwin for, for the way in which he interacts with the mom. I think he has to walk a. I think he has to walk a very fine line there. And, and, you know, this is kind of Tolkien's reading. He has to find a walk a fine line so he can both flirt with and not embarrass the lady of the house. It's like, well, okay, I suppose that's a game.
- [21:27]
A
Yeah. I think this is where I am a little harsh on Gowan or I would label some critiques. Or where my own, like, inclinations are, is just simply that, you know, if you talk about the pin tangle and like, wins the Christian imbalance with the chivalric, and sometimes where do they become imbalanced or where does one threaten the other? The, you know, I, I very much would have been more in favor of the St. Thomas Aquinas option or the Joseph with Potiphar's wife option, because at some point, like, I understand getting caught in a situation the first time, but then, like, he agrees to the game again because he doesn't agree to all three at the same time. Right. He agrees each time. So he knows what's happening. And to invite that back in, because I think one of the reads that. So there's two things there. One is that it seems like the chivalric game, the courtesy game there imperils his soul by putting him back in an occasion of sin. And then on the third one where she. It's not that the temptations to lust, I think, lead him to make a mistake in the end insofar as, like, somehow the temptation of lust itself wore him down. But I think the problem is you're putting yourself back into a situation in which your interlocutor means evil for you. And eventually she figures out how to tempt him correctly. But he kept putting himself back in that situation. So it's like, yeah, I can go talk to her. I'm not going to fall in to lust. It's not going to happen. But then with her mal intent, she figures out how to tempt him correctly. And that's where I kind of put some fault in. Maybe that's a poet's point of, like, where does the chivalric really have friction with the Christian? Because at some point I just want to have him, like, listen, you just need to run out of the castle and get away. I don't care what the courtly love games are.
- [23:09]
B
Yeah, quit. Quit playing these silly games. And now even. It's even. Okay, so now you're going to be a little harsh. Maybe I'll go back to my youth and be even more harsh. Gawain has this tendency, maybe I'll call it an ability, though I don't mean that in a positive way, but he has a tendency to be able to compartmentalize things. Here he is going to get his head chopped off. And the host says, this is fantastic. He's like a mile up the road. Stay here for a few days. This will be fantastic. And by the way, let's play a game, okay? I ask my students all the time when we read this, which is usually at the end of the semester, and I'll ask them things like, you know, you guys procrastinate writing your papers, and does it ever happen to you whenever that time's pushing down on you, that all of a sudden, you know, you see a leaf fall from a tree that all of a sudden strikes your heart with panic and terror because you know, that's just the symbol of the passing of time, and the time is passing on you to write. And they all start laughing like, yes. And how many of you just close the blinds and pretend the leaf isn't there? And a lot of them, yes, like, how do we avoid it? That's what I think Gowen does for these three days. I think he can compartmentalize. He's playing courtly games. So it's even worse than what you're saying. He's playing courtly games when his life is going to be on the line in another three days. In fact, there is a delicious line. It's on the. It's on the second temptation when. When Bertilak brings in the boar's head, huge boar's head. And what you see here is. Is. It's around for me, it's around 1634, 1635. It's going to be there in fit three. And I just want to read. Just read the Middle English to you. And so it's when he comes in with this huge head, and it says, you know, it's this huge head, and I guess it's 1633. Then it says, Then handled thy. The hoj head. Then. Then they handled the huge head. They're all touching this decapitated boar's head. The Hende man it praise it. The courteous man praises it. But here's the line. And let loudly there at. In feigned terror at it so as to praise his Lord. Okay? And now that just seems to be a throwaway line. But I always ask my students if a Falling leaf puts panic into you because you have a paper due. And this is his second day of hunting and he's got a big, big head in his hand and he has to feign terror like, what are you even thinking? So I hope you see how I'm building off the point that you're talking about, because yes, he's playing these courtly games, but his existence could be done here in a couple of days. And then the most delicious line in the poem is what Bertolac says. Now Gowan quotes the gold man that is Bertilak, the good man, in literally, in Middle English, this gaumen is your own, this game is your own, while he's holding a head in his hand. What does Bertilak mean? Bertilak means we're playing this game of reciprocation at my castle. Well, a second time reader, but a second time reader knows Bertilak was the green knight. And he's like, this game's your own. And he's laughing about it. And that's what I mean by that compartmentalization. I can show you again, when Lady Bertilak gives him the girdle, what does he do? He hides it. And then he skips merrily off to confession. He just seems to be able to put things in certain categories. And he's a fine reader of contracts, by the way. When he gives Bertilak a kiss on the first day, Bertilak says, wow, that's a great, great gift you've got there. Where'd you get it? And Gowan goes, that wasn't part of the deal. I'm not going to disclose that to you. He doesn't say it would be uncourtly of me to do it. He says, that wasn't part of our agreement and I'm not going to. I don't have to abide by it. So he can read contracts very, very well. He can find loopholes really well. So I'm just adding that to some of your, maybe some of your skeptical takes on what he's up to. Yes, and I think there are other things that sometimes make that even worse. Just his ability to compartmentalize.
- [28:05]
A
Let's talk about the confession scene, because that's one I'm still not settled on. Maybe not in the character, but even like in my own read, because sometimes, you know, there's tension. I want to make sure I'm receiving the tension that the poet intended, not that I just can't read it correctly. So yes, my kind of going just by memory of the text, I think that my main problem with the confession scene and Tolkien talks about this. And again, I think Tolkien runs a lot of interference for Sir Gowan. And I'm not sure how much that then is coloring my own perception. But he. What's interesting there is he takes the girdle. Okay, so we could talk about that. We could talk about why does he take it and what's his fault in that and what's. Maybe what does that imply? But what I'm still not real settled on is that he takes it and she. She tells him that you cannot tell the Lord, right? You can't tell Lord of the Castle. You can't tell Bertilak.
- [28:53]
B
Yes.
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A
Okay, great. So he takes that and he knows that. And he knows he's going to be asked for this. Like, he knows that. But then in between him keeping it and saying, yes, I won't do that, and him having to tell based on him having to lie to Bertilak, he has the confession scene. And the poet seems to make it seem like he has a good conflict confession, as that seems to be the statements there. There's no. This is a little bit maybe of inside baseball on the sacramental side of. Of the Christian faith. But, like, you can't do that. So, for instance, if he's intending.
- [29:25]
B
That's a. That's a technical term. Yes. How many confessors have I had told me, you can't do that. You just can't do that.
- [29:33]
A
So here's the problem, right? For those who aren't familiar with how this works, like, you can't go into confession knowing that you're going to sin and be like, I'm sorry for that. You can't ask for forgiveness for sins you haven't committed. And also, you're not actually contrite for being a sinner if you know you're going to walk right out there in sin. And so the poem, though, seems to very much just say, it's a good confession. And then he goes, and he retains the girdle. And I. There's some reads here. And please, if I'm wrong, then this pushback or whatever. But the. What I don't like is that then there's reads that are like, oh, well, the reason it's not like a sin is because the girdle is just a game. And I'm like, well, I don't understand that. I can't play Monopoly with my kids and lie to them because it's Monopoly. Christianity doesn't have a way to compartmentalize like that. So the Whole confession scene. We wrestle. I mean, I know you listen to the podcast. We really wrestled with it for a while. I'm still kind of unsettled about how to take it.
- [30:28]
B
So I think there are. I think there are a few things we want to take into consideration here. And Gowan doesn't know this, but we don't know if the priest who's there is in on the game, because what if, in fact, Gowen did say, so I'm going to withhold the girdle and the priest isn't on the game, and he's like, yeah, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. It's just a court. You understand? It's just a courtly game. So let me just say I don't know that, but I think that has to be an option. But there's no evidence for it. But I at least just want to throw that out there. There were a series of three articles about 40 years ago on the severity of Gowan's fake confession. What I have to ask my students all the time is say, okay, you know, kind of put on your confessor hat. If somebody, you know, Gowan has a couple of options. Either he doesn't confess it, the I'm not going to tell him about it, and maybe Gowing can compartmentalize like your students do. It's just a silly courtly game. I'll show you evidence that that's not the case. Okay, but let's just say that's one. A second one could in fact be, he did confess that I'm going to withhold this girdle, and that the priest did in fact say, you're not doing that. You have to go give that girdle up. That would be proper penance, at least step one of proper penance. And then he still continues to withhold it, or he's just decided, I'm not giving anything up, and he does it intentionally, not even thinking about it in a gamesmanship in the Middle English here. And you're right, it's explicit, but there is an incredible moment where the poets. I think he's winking at us. So this positive language, you see, in some ways there's a playfulness in the Middle English. So I'm about line 1880. It's the very first line of the confession. And I'll just. I'm not going to read it in Middle English. I'll just translate it literally. And there he shrove himself sheerly finely and showed his misdeeds of the more and the less meaning mortal or venial sins of the more and the less and besought mercy and absolution. He calls on the man. Here's the line that should bother us all. And he absolved him, surely, and set him, or declared him so pure, so clean, so pure. Now, here's where the poet's going to smile as if doomsday should have been a. Appointed in the morning, which, of course, what's going to be appointed in the morning? Doomsday. That's one of the lines where I think the poet is being pretty crafty and he's got a little smirk on his face because it's showing us the way in which Gowan compartmentalizes the last, the very last thing you want to do. If you think you're going to. Here, let this be a lesson for all your viewers. If on the next day you're going to go get your head cut off, don't have any sort of false confession, like what? You can flip it. What a beautiful moment for him to go confess truly, completely, because you're going to your death. So I think that's the poet with just a little smile, making us wonder, well, was it a full confession? What are we doing here? I think he's got that line to just have it in the back of our mind, what's he going to. In fact, there is. There's another marker to this as well. And I don't know if you guys. If you, if you caught it, it's around line 2000. It's after the. The confession scene, of course, but he's lying in bed and he can't sleep because he's thinking of the next day. And it's at this moment when he's lying in bed thinking about the next day, what's about to go happen to him, that the cock crows a betrayal with a kiss. A cock crowing. I hope. You see, we can admire Sir Gawain, but I think the poem gives us enough hints to know, yeah, he's got some missteps here as well. And I think it is. I think the cock crowing really is supposed to be an echo of Peter's betrayal of Christ, which does not mean the Green Knight is Christ. It's not what I mean at all. But that Gowan doesn't abide by what he promises. You know, when St. Peter says, I'll follow you to prison, even to death, and Christ, like, yeah, that's nice. I'll be back. You'll see. After that. Yes, you will. But before that, probably not. It's what we see going on. It's what we see going on here, I think so. I think you guys were right to be troubled by the confession scene. I also think there's a lot of the reason why I appreciated so much your approach last time when we talked about the liturgical seasons. Because if it is a feasting time and we are between something that's grave and something that's joyful, well, I think that's the tension that we feel all throughout. All throughout the poem. And I think. I think Gowan wants to feel too joyful too quickly. It's like, no, you have to go. You have to go finish your quest. You have to go. You have to go finish your contract, your agreement with the green knight, before you get to go having any fun. One final thing, if I may, to show you the way in which Gowan can compartmentalize on the third day in the exchange of the gifts. It marks a difference in the order of the exchange of gifts. And I like to ask my students, you know, how do you account for this? And usually they go, oh, he's trying to mask his guilt. If someone gives you that gift, if he has to abide by the contract, then he really does have to reciprocate, which would mean the girdle. But what if he gives the gift first, the kiss? Bertilak reciprocates. Is that a nice way? Is that a nice way to get yourself out of it? Is that a nice way to compartmentalize being able to hold it back? Because now you actually have given your gift and he's reciprocated there. So again, that's that compartmentalization that I think a Gowan is just. And again, you know, I. I think. I think Bertilak, slash the green knight, he says, you know, you had a love of your life, so I kind of blame you less. Like, you kept this because you didn't want to get your head lopped off. I kind of get that explanation. I kind of accept that explanation as. As well.
- [37:26]
A
So let's assume that the confession was not good, that he. That he did retain the girdle. He knew he wasn't going to give it back. I'm not really sure. Taking the girdle, I mean, taking a girdle itself, I have obviously a few problems with. But mainly it's the retaining after the confession because it happens between those two things. So if we read that as basically a false confession, that's actually really fascinating because it's only the first of two confession scenes.
- [37:54]
B
Yes.
- [37:55]
A
And it sort of. So then do you read then that the Green Knight has that confession because he finally draws it all out of Sir Gawain? Because it's when Sir Gawain, in the reaction when things. He realizes what has happened to him, he is so harsh on himself. That's where I actually see him being contrite. That's where his contrition kicks in. So I guess you could read this as this is really a false confession. You could read why? Either he's compartmentalizing, he's not taking it seriously, he's being malicious. Whatever he's doing, it's not real. And it's not until the Green Knight calls out his failure that we really see that contrition in him. And that's why the poet uses that language of absolution. He uses the sacramental language in the mouth of the Green Knight.
- [38:42]
B
Look, I think that's right. But boy, doesn't that create even more problems with the Green Knight? Should he? I like that you focus on Gawain's response to it. Although the Green Knight uses sacramental language as well. But I like that you focus on what Gowan's doing and not the role or the position of the Green Knight. The Green Knight can pull it out of him. But this is Gawain. Who's going to accept such things?
- [39:13]
A
Well, it seems like they're. Yeah. Because I actually am not a huge fan of the Green Knight, morally speaking. We can talk about that if you want, but I don't read it as an allegory. So just because. So let's just say this. So just because the Green Knight can be a quote unquote Christological figure in one scene, does not mean that he plays that role throughout the entire poem. Right. So in this moment where he plays. Plays the role of the priest, so to speak, calling out the sin of Sir Gallain and using sacramental language, and then we see Sir Gallain really have that moment of contrition that makes sense to me. It just kind of. I like Sir Gallen. So I. I find the fact that I can't reconcile his first confession to be a real confession just somewhat disappointing.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah, I mean, so. So your point's well taken. In medieval literature, you can have little Christological moments, but then it's just full stop. Because look, in the ancient world in the Middle Ages, that's just how they read the Old Testament. You didn't keep going on and on. This is a type of the cross, the wood that gets thrown into Marah, the bitterness that gets turned sweet. Oh, that's a symbol of the cross crushing death, full stop. We're good. We don't have to keep pushing on that. Okay, so I take that seriously. But you can still be nervous about the Green Knight. That's why I said I liked your emphasis on Sir Gawain. Because in some ways, the Green Knight, he may. Or Bertilak, in this case, he may be tempting Gawain again. And Gawain, I think, learns his lesson when Bertilak says, okay, it's all said and done. We were just goofing on you. I nicked your neck. No big deal. Come back to the castle. Let's have some fun. Now, now we're actually. We. We can have feasting time. Please come back to the castle. And Gavin's like, no way. No shape, no form. So there is a. Is another example of Gowan perhaps learning his lesson, going, wait, you just revealed all this stuff to me and now you're telling me to come back? I don't. I don't think so. So I think the Green Knight could. Could be trying to. Bertilat. Could be trying to continue in his tempter mode. Now, I'll say this because I think. I think this is probably my definitive position on the Green Knight. He is the tool of Morgan Le Fay. He does participate in Fae magic kind of a problem. Okay, so am I going to be comfortable calling him a Christ figure? No. Am I comfortable calling him a tempter? I am. Here's my position. I think he's a tempter who gives Gowen the most charitable ways out possible. I think he does it in Arthur's castle, being very precise about his language. He certainly does it with the nick on the neck. And so I think he's doing about as good a courtly job, chivalric job, as you can under the guise of this Fae magic, if that makes sense. I think he's doing as much as he can as a fellow knight and as is possible under the conditions of working under Morgan Le Fay. But I also think Gowan recognizes at the end, this guy's just a tempter. I'm not. I'm not going back to that place in any way, shape or form.
- [42:34]
A
Yeah. Two thoughts. I very much agree because I saw that theme of lingering throughout the poem. And here it's very fascinating to see Sir Gallon be like, I will linger no longer. Yeah. And going back. And so I did. I did see that as a character maturation in him, the Green Knight. So, yeah. So you gotta love The Green Knight, I mean, he's kind. Like, his statements, like how he plays this. I mean, his reveal is wonderful, where he just. He doesn't say, I was this person. He just starts talking about his wife. Like, it's. I love the whole character. It's fantastic. So my problem with the Green Knight is. Yeah, he says that. That Morgan le Fay made him. And we don't really know what that means, but he doesn't seem to be, like, terribly under distress or anything like that. So. But he does two things. Maybe not two, but two that come to mind that I think are really fascinating. One is he also went there not just as a game, but, hey, by the way, we were kind of hoping that your queen would die.
- [43:28]
B
Yeah.
- [43:29]
A
Like, that's. That's not a small statement. That's not like you kind of hope Guinevere died of fright, by the way. I hope you're okay with that. And two, like the guy who sends his own wife in to be the sexual temptress of the night. Like, also not a great guy. So the way I read the Green Knight, or maybe I shouldn't say the way I read, I don't have anything definitive. So I keep thinking about the pentangle in my head. So that's the ideal that we've been given. In certain ways, I find the Green Knight, to his imbalance is that he is incredibly chivalric and courteous, but not Christian.
- [44:03]
B
Christian.
- [44:05]
A
And so he. He tips like that way. So he. Even though he does have mass and stuff in his. In his castle, and he has some Christian language, I think, in his context, but he is very courteous, and he speaks highly of Sir Gallon, and he does these things. But if you just look at, like, black and white, what he agreed to do and what they were hoping to get out of it, it's not good. I don't see how he can't. He can't be. There's no neutral here. He can't be seen as a. Like a neutral character in the play. I don't think.
- [44:32]
B
No, you know, this is. And this would be too deep of a dive into the weeds, but if you look at the contractual language that he offers up and Gowan says, hey, you've got to tell me where you live. And the Green Knight says something like, after you. After you do what you do. If I don't say anything, then you don't have to come see me. If I do say something, I'll tell you where I live. Okay. So, like you, I actually. I like the Green Knight. He makes me nervous for the same reasons he makes you nervous. I think he's about as trying to be about as honest a broker that he can again under the conditions. But that line always stuck with me. Whenever he says, if I don't say anything, then you're good to go, and I take him at his word. But then what would that mean for him not to say anything? Arthur and Gowan interpret it. Cut his head off and he can't talk. Well, it turns out he can talk. He just puts his head in his hand. Okay, but if I take him as an honest broker, and I do, because show me where he's not, then that means had gone, done something. Now, let's just say to demonstrate the pentangle, what if Gawain gave him a nick on the neck? What if he did that to the Green Knight? You know what I think, Bertilak, the Green Knight, I think he would have appreciated it and said, wow, you showed me mercy when I could lop off your head. He wouldn't say it, but he could just get up and walk right out. What if Gawain passed that first test? What if he passed that? That test of the temptation of his pride? What if he had done that? Is it not his pride and Arthur's pride? If I want to go to the source of pride, it's clearly Arthur. It's what the whole court thinks. They can't believe it. Who in their right mind would actually do this sort of thing, agree to this stuff so that we have this disaster? I have a suspicion that the Green Knight would have just walked out without saying anything if Gowan had actually passed his test. If, if. If he had actually upheld that pentangle, showed some form of pite, which again, means both piety and pity there. So even there, I take the Green Knight. I. I think he just gives him multiple ways out. And it's just, you know, Gao and Arthur, they just don't. They don't take it.
- [47:01]
A
The Green Knight does seem to have a chivalric heart.
- [47:04]
B
Yeah.
- [47:04]
A
Even with all the faults we've talked about. So I agree that if Sir Gawain would have been able to do something like that, I think the Green Knight would have appreciated it. And even when Sir Gowan steps up, he kind of makes a statement of appreciation for who's actually coming and standing before him. Now, at the same time, he also gets down and bears his neck.
- [47:23]
B
Neck. Yep.
- [47:24]
A
So he's making it really clear what kind of strike he wants to receive. So, again, tension. These things are held in parallel Together. Do.
- [47:33]
B
Do I think the Green Knight wants Gowen to chop his head off? But is that Gowan's only option? No. But what would it mean for Gawain not to. That his own life is on the line is what we talked about in that first fit. In fact, there's a beautiful sense of symmetry. I think I told. I think I told your listeners last time that when they get to the end, this is how almost obsessive this poet is about this sort of parallelism and the reciprocity. So in fit 4 towards the end, it's so for those have line numbers. It's 2313.
- [48:09]
A
Do you have a stanza numbers by chance?
- [48:11]
B
I don't, but it's where he nicks him on the neck. That's the only line that you need to know. So it begins with the stanza. He lifts quickly his weapon. Oh, I don't know how Tolkien translates it. So it's about 2313. In 2313, the line says in Middle English, the shop shrunk to the flesh through the shir greisa, right? So the blade cuts through the flesh right through that white skin, that white flesh, that white fat. If you go all the way back to fit one. When Gaoman cuts off the Green Knight's head. So line around 425. What's the very phrase that he uses whenever Galen cuts off his head and shrunk through the shield Grace and shot it in twin. It's an identical line. The poet is so precise that the game blow for blow, he uses the same exact words with the two of them. To show you, dear Gowan, there was in fact a way out. You just needed to show pity. You needed to show charity. Remember whenever I told you guys, the first time, when it describes the Green Knights act, it says full gracious works, full beautiful craftsmanship. But I said you can read it literally. The acts has full gracious works because I think that's what the Green Knight shows to him at the end. He actually shows him what grace looks like. This is where you failed in your chivalry and I would argue in your cr. Christianity. This is where he failed both of them. The Green Knight actually shows him up there, which I think is important to the poem. Again with Gowan's misstep. There is one aspect of the poem where critics are pretty divided. One of the complaints of the poem is that the nick on the neck for Gowan is only for the things that go on at Bertilax Castle. He makes no mention of the stroke for stroke game with regards to what's going on there. And so some critics will say, wow, this poet who likes his symmetry, he likes to begin his poem with a phrase, then he ends the poem with the phrase, though that second use of the phrase should be transformed completely and our understanding of it. So they're a little taken aback that it doesn't seem to match up. But I'm of the camp that I think it matches up perfectly, even if it's unstated, because of the reciprocity and even this line here, because the thing that we're told is he has a sin of untrouth, which I think is supposed to be at Bertilak's castle, the withholding of the girdle. You're unfaithful to me. But he also announces that it was his cowardice and that it was his love of his own life. And Bertilak says, and I don't really blame you for that. That's the second. Okay. I think that's where you bring the two things in together that, that in some ways what Bertilak is saying is, sure, you're a coward because you feared for your life, but I think that's what he does in Arthur's castle. He doesn't want to give him some sort of blow because that's going to mean the death of him. So I think the decapitation, showing no mercy, no charity, it really is a symptom of a cowardice that we see in the withholding of the girdle as well, which is also a sin of untroud, that infidelity too. So that's how I bring the two together because I think it was always about Gawain's cowardice in not showing that pity again. Would I be equally the coward? Yes. I would hope I could be equally gracious as the Green Knight, but I would certainly probably be as cowardly as Gawain was.
- [51:59]
A
Yeah, I appreciate you tethering those two together. They both actually pivot on self preservation. So it's the same, same, same type of error that he's actually making in both. Yeah, I found, I found the whole thing to be very symmetrical. I didn't actually to be very disjointed at all. Can we, can we talk about the kisses for a second? Because you and I emailed back and forth a little bit.
- [52:19]
B
Yeah.
- [52:19]
A
Is the first off, there's just the kisses as part of like the, the trading of the winnings. Okay, we got that. And then every time I read it with someone, I think whether it's our modern imagination or what? Whether we're corrupted or whatever, people always want to know, like, are they. How erotic are these actual kisses? Because they get them, because he receives them. Right. In an erotic atmosphere, if that makes sense. Which the giving of them doesn't seem to do that at all. And so on the podcast, we talked about, like, that doesn't seem to be present there. But then when you. You and I chit. Chatted via email and you mentioned, like, there's a liturgical aspect to the kisses too, that wasn't really touched upon.
- [52:55]
B
Yeah. So from. From, you know, early time. Justin Martyr mentions it. Early liturgical practice in both east and west used to have what was called the kiss of peace during liturgy, where certainly any clergy who are con. Celebrating share the kiss of peace, but it used to be that the congregation would as well. They have a certain moment, they stop. Everybody embraces one another. Because it's supposed to be a symbol of reconciliation, of forgiveness. Okay. I hope you guys can see how that's important. You slowly but surely it falls out of use both east and West. But in the west, they have what are known as pax baids, pax braids, these piece of wood or a piece of metal that would depict the crucifixion. And they would pass it to each member and they would kiss it. So that slowly started to replace the kiss of peace. You kiss an icon essentially, of the crucifixion of Christ. So instead of kissing one another, this is how we find our unity. Our reconciliation is in our indebtedness to Christ. Okay, so eventually the literal kiss of peace inside of the church went away again, with the exception of clergy. But do you know where it actually stood up for the longest time, the kiss of peace? It was in the courtly life. You give your king a kiss, and you give your king a kiss on the mouth that shows that closeness that. That shows that reconciliation that's there. So when I see all this kissing and all this courtly game, and maybe it's just because I, you know, I'm trained in chivalric literature. You know, sometimes I like to tell students the poems will dictate to you kind of the boundaries of what they'll allow for in these courtly games. Do they allow for kisses in this one? Yes, I think they do. Can they be distracting the way that you say they are? Yes. Can he sleep with his Lord's lady? No. The poem makes that very, very clear. So is there flirtation that goes on in these courtly games? Yes, I think this is what bothered Tolkien. These are a distraction. Nevertheless, I think it's part of the genre here, But I love the idea, if we can get back to that, both a liturgical, but maybe more importantly a chivalric kiss of peace, then I really enjoy that because that means, you know, kind of Bertilak goofing on Gowan this whole time. It's a game of reciprocity. But Bertilak already knows we're going to be reconciled. Like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna take you out. I'm not gonna do those things to you. I think there's just something really kind of fitting about that. So I like the image of the reconciliation through that kiss. Now, again, is there something ironic in what the. What Lady Bertilak's doing? Yes. Is it erotic? Yes, I think. I think it is. I also kind of think it's within the rules of the game, but I don't know hers is about reconciliation at all.
- [55:44]
A
Two questions. So just from, like, a cultural standpoint, just so I understand. So when the lady of the castle is kissing Sir Gowan, is she kissing him on the mouth? Is that like the. Is that. And then he's giving those on the mouth to the Lord, or do we not know?
- [55:57]
B
We're not. We don't know. I have a. I can only project. I do not think Gowan is going to kiss his lord's lady on the mouth.
- [56:05]
A
I should know. From a cultural standpoint, I took them as, like, the little kisses on, like, the cheeks and stuff.
- [56:09]
B
On the cheek. Yeah. Usually that. That's where it. That's where it's going. That's where it's going to be.
- [56:14]
A
Well, didn't you mention.
- [56:15]
B
Didn't you mention kissing on the lips? That. Actually, that's not problematic at all. In fact, that's a. That's a. That's a sign of a closeness. That's there. But, yeah, in the chivalric literature, usually, again, unless it's something scandalous, it usually is just that kiss on the cheek. And again, it's supposed to be kind of. This cult of love is supposed to be nearly platonic in its way, and that's what chivalry tries to take over. So just think about Dante's relationship with Beatrice. I mean, the guy sees her twice in his life whenever they're young, and he dedicates an entire book to her. My students just find that utterly bizarre until you understand. Well, you know, it's this cult of love. You place a woman up on a pedestal, whether she knows it or not. And you devote everything to her. Again, is that borrowing from the Marian tradition? I think it is. Are they trying to make it worldly? I think they are. But that's just simply what you see as kind of part of this genre and culture.
- [57:15]
A
Yeah, it's interesting there because, too, yeah, Beatrice. Because we're actually going to read Purgatorio for Lent on the podcast. And so, yeah, Beatrice then becomes an icon of God's beauty as well. Dante's pretty good about doing this in his courtly love poetry, right. Where he talked about, he sees her beauty and it leads it to him. He switches the pronouns. It's to God. So he's. He's. He's playing with that tradition. Something just occurred to me. I mean, this might be a poor read or whatever, but earlier you mentioned that it's not entirely clear, like, who all is actually in on this game. Right. There's some questions we could ask. That was a question I asked on the podcast. On the last one fit four of the servant who takes him out. Does a servant actually think the sir, the green knight is real and he's like saying, hey, this guy's going to kill you? Or is this like a malicious treachery of this one last temptation? Either way, it's a temptation, Sir Gallon. But one of them is very much like a malicious. Like, I'm in on it. I'm trying to tempt you. One thing that occurred to me as we were talking, and so this is a raw thought, but the green knight, Sir Bertilak, tells us that Morgan le Fay put him up to this. That maybe if he went to the castle, then Guinevere would die. Is Morgan le Fay planning the whole rest of it as well? Is the temptation of the lady of the castle to Sir Gawain? Is that also Morgan le Fay? Or do we even know? Like, is she responsible for everything? Or is this part of, like, the Lord's doing? Does that make sense? Like, I realized that as we were talking. I'm not really sure the lines are terribly clear here.
- [58:45]
B
I. I don't know. The text doesn't make that clear. If. If you kind of push me on this. I think the. I think the final night. Who tells him run away. I won't tell anybody. I think he's in on it simply because it's going to be another test of his cowardice. It's just too perfect. Like, we're trying to test, are you a coward or not? And if you ran. So if he ran away, I would find that to be 100 times more dishonorable than putting on a girdle. In some ways, putting on a girdle. And this is what Gowan says when the Green Knight says, hey, you flinched. And Gowan goes, yeah, unlike you, I can't pick up my head. Like, what do you. He's like, what? What do you want me to do? You could be a tough guy because you still live. I won't. So forgive my flinching here. So I think if taking the girdle or withholding the girdle is a sign of cowardice, I think it's far less so than if he had run away from the fight. In some ways, it is almost a reciprocal gesture of magic, which again could doom Gawain. It's a reciprocal gesture of magic to go up against the Green Knight's magic, which in some ways you could say then Morgan le Fay really is kind of ruling this little universe there at Bertilak's castle because it's just wall to wall magic at this point. It's magic fighting magic. And again. Yeah, go ahead.
- [60:07]
A
I was gonna say what's interesting though is that, see, Tolkien tries to make this comment that Sir Gawain never relies on the girdle at all. And I couldn't follow him completely on that because clearly there's a reason that Sir Gawain first takes it and secondly doesn't give it back. So he's gonna have, and he puts it on, so he's gonna have some type of reliance in the beginning. But it is true then that once the, you know, he stands before the Green Knight, there seems to be zero textual evidence that he relies on that girdle at all. He doesn't reference it. He doesn't believe that it's going to help him. Like. So I do think Sir Gawain ends well there. I don't think he relies on the girdle in there. So even though he has this like Fae magic for fey magic, my girdle version versus the Green Knight, that whatever he intended when he took it doesn't seem to endure when he's playing the game or when he kneels to take his nick.
- [61:01]
B
Well, it could be that or I, I'll just give it the, the opposite reading. He so relies on it that he doesn't even think about it. I so rely on gravity. I don't worry about floating up. That would be the only thing that you would. That would be the response. But with regards to taking the girdle, it's very clear why he takes it. She Says, here's a beautiful ring of mine. He says, I can't take it. I don't have any gift to give you in return. It's too expensive. She's like, well, here, take this disgusting girdle I have. It's worth nothing. And he's like, you don't understand. I don't have anything to give to you. And then she says, well, the nice thing about it is you're. You can't be hurt wearing it. And then he goes, oh, well, now that I think about. So it seems to me pretty much prima facie evidence that he wants that girdle for a very, very specific reason. And she's really crafty in the way she's done it. And you guys touched on it a little bit in your last talk. But I want to make it explicit here. She catches him because he gets into an agreement or a game with her. So he's damned either way. Obviously not spiritually damned, though. Maybe so. But he's damned either way because if he withholds the girdle from Bertilak, he commits the sin of untrouth. If he gives the girdle up to Bertilak and it's his wife's girdle, he commits a sin of untrouth to the lady. So he's actually bound himself that he can't win and that he must commit the sin of untrouth. And then I go back simply because I think of his sin of cowardice or. Or the. I don't want to call it if it's a sin, it's a light one. But the love of his life, that was too much. He puts himself in a double bind, I think because he's thinking of his. I think he's thinking of his mortality. I think of what's just about to come.
- [62:56]
A
Yeah, no, I agree with that. Can we talk about colors and the theme of colors in the poem for a second? So actually this was a question that came from Catherine or our Patreon page where we have a chit chat, we have a group chat about Sir Gawain and the green knight. So she asked. I'll summarize. Basically, why is the green knight green? Which is a great question. And then what parallel is there to Sir Gawain who seems to be dressed in almost all red? Because you can see a parallel even when Sir Gawain's armor, when they discuss the armor and then the green knight comes in. There's a lot of parallels there. What are we supposed to be doing with color in this poem.
- [63:35]
B
Yeah. So this is the trickiest thing. If you're a medievalist, almost everything serves dual purposes, so I'll just give you some examples. So why is he the green Knight? Well, it could be that it's participating in that sort of Germanic wild man tradition where it's often green and he's covered with leaves. Supposed to be a symbol of kind of rebirth, of regeneration, which, of course makes sense with the green knight with his head. And, you know, people go, oh, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Rebirth. There it is. Oh, that's exactly what it. Oh, yeah, the wild man tradition. That's what it's going to be. All right, fine. There's that curious line where Gowan, when he's going to the chapel, he says, this is where the devil must say his matins or say his vespers. I forget which. Which service it is, because this was where the devil is. Well, guess what color the devil is always associated with. It's always green in the Middle Ages. So he could be a demonic figure for you. And there are plenty of articles out there that do an allegorical reading of Gowan. Is this Christ figure going to conquer and defeat, you know, the Devil? Okay. I don't know. It makes sense to me why he thinks he's going to the. This must be where the devil says his matins, because he thinks I'm going down because I've been tricked this entire time. Okay. There's a third use of the color green, which I hope your readers can appreciate. It's often associated with St. John the Baptist, St. John the Forerunner, which in a poem about decapitations. Well, that makes a good bit of sense as well. So you can see it's pretty hard to say. Here's kind of the stable reading of what's going on here in a poem that's as rich as this. You know, if you. If you deal with lesser poets, could green have a very stable meaning? Yes, but we probably wouldn't be talking about those books on this podcast. Now, the red, you remember the red comes up with the holly bob as well. Red, usually the. The Advent and Nativity liturgical colors there read often associated with both the Theotokos and Christ in iconography. And so you see all of that as well. So I think it's. Think it's just a wonderful mixture of this poet who's just kind of putting all this stuff into the mix for us. I wish I had a definitive answer for the green question, but I don't. It can go in just manifold directions.
- [66:04]
A
For Us, you know, I appreciate you parsing that out. I. I like what you said about. Yeah, there's the. The wild man. We even have, like, cathedrals where he's, like, carved in and things like this. But then I do like what you pointed out, because it was very clear then when he gets to the quote, unquote, green Chapel, that green imagery, which is this kind of like wild, primal nature, gets kneaded in deeply with satanic imagery and the demonic. So, yeah, it's. It doesn't. Like most things in this poem. It doesn't seem to have, like, just like one clean allegorical layer to it, but rather it serves anagogically at certain points for different things. Because even, like, the. The color, too, of the. Maybe it's my own imagination when I read it, but even when he gets the nick, now, I'm not sure what a nick means to a knight, because this nick put his gore upon the snow or whatever. Like, the imagery and the color that's used. Used immediately there is just beautiful.
- [67:01]
B
Yeah, no, I agree. And I. I think it was you who mentioned when you were reading him, going to the Green Chapel, and you see all those mounds, and your thought was like, is this. Is this supposed to be evocative of burial ground? Yeah, I think it. I think it is. I mean, just think about Gowan's terror as he's walking there, thinking this is where the devil says is Matins. And then you hear the Grindelstone, right? It says that he's sharpening the axe, and it's so loud and piercing that it could cleave those cliffs in two. It's just. It's really just fantastic. You're supposed to be terrorized as you're walking up to this with Gal. It's supposed to be very intense.
- [67:47]
A
It's an incredibly cinematic moment. It's one that I appreciated. One of the other questions we had on our Patreon page, which I appreciated this because this was actually a feeling that I had when I first read the poem, is so you have the chivalric being brave Sir Gowan standing up in front of this green Knight. All of these things. Why. Why doesn't he. I mean, let me. I'll just put it kind of straightforward. Why does he not fight the Green Knight? Or why does it not precipitate in him some type of actual combative role when he really realizes the Green Knight, not at the beginning, but at the end, when he realizes the Green Knight has done something in an attempt to kill his own queen, does that make sense. So, like I tell you, like, we've been being chivalric the whole time, etcetera, and then he just kind of tells him haphazardly, hey, by the way, this was a lot of fun. Like, you're a good knight. I appreciate it. By the way, this whole thing we were supposed to do is actually supposed to kill your queen. Now come back to my castle and hang out.
- [68:42]
B
Oh, right, I see. I thought you meant whenever you was going to the chapel. Because I thought, no, he has to show up because he, he, it was his word. I mean, my students all the time want to know, why would you even go like this Should. The rules should be. It's like, no, this is why it's so important that he commits the sin of untroud. And remember, when he's nicked and it says the blood spurred over his shoulder onto the ground in front of him so we can see it, he jumps up immediately and he says, you got your one shot. We'll go to blows if you want to go to blows. So that, that, that moment, whenever he realizes that the forward, the agreement, the contract is fulfilled, he's ready to fight. But yours is a great question, like, why isn't he angry about this? I don't know. Is it because he's been shamed? Is it because he's been called a coward? Is it because he doesn't like his. Is he loved his life a little too much? He. Is he. A little. What would I say? Is he. If it's been revealed that that girdle is actually mine, it may turn out that that girdle isn't magic. And if that girdle is not magic, Gowan does not stand a chance against the Green Knight. I think he can jump up when he sees the blood and is ready to fight, because he's sitting there thinking, sweet, the girdle worked. I happen to think that the girdle doesn't work. I just think the Green Knight's great with an axe and can just give him a nick on the neck. Neck, the way in which Gowan ought to have been given him a nick on the neck. So I don't think the girdle's any good. So once it's revealed, I don't, I don't know that Gowan thinks, oh, I've got this, I've got the girdle protection still, so that could be the problem. But no, I really not, I really not thought much about, why wouldn't he go and do something about it also? And this is a terrible answer. We need to wrap the poem up. We need to wrap the poem up. We can't keep having these battles. And not only that, but it's an arg. Arthur Morgan Le Fay. It's just another episode right in their. In their. In their great rivalry.
- [70:40]
A
Yeah. That came from Will on our Patreon page, if I didn't say that. But it is. I think it. I think where Eileen is going back to that statement of the maturation. So, yes, he doesn't seem to, because he's even courteous still. And I think that's something that really is jarring, is like, hey, sorry. This game could have ended with you dying. We also tried to kill your queen X, Y, and Z. But hey, like, just come back to the castle. One thing that really stood out to me when I first read it was how courteous he is to them still. Even saying, I'm not coming back. I've got to go. Because he could critique them for all the lying they did. Of course, he could critique them for inviting him to an occasion of sin. He could critique them for trying to kill his queen. And even in that moment where he realized that they have all this mal intent for him, he's courteous in the way that he disengages from the conversation.
- [71:29]
B
I mean, look, the other thing that you have to kind of put in the background here, and I take it pretty seriously, is that this was all just a game. This has just been a series of games. Are you really going to get upset at this game? You agreed to play the game. This is the game we played. We said stroke for stroke. This is the game we played. We're going to exchange gifts. And it turns out gallon, you're the only one who violated the rules of those games. So you have a lot of nerve being angry at me. Look at what I just. I just showed you great charity by just giving you a nick on the neck. So I don't know. I think in some ways I like your language of Gowan's maturation. I think he's humiliated. And I take that as a good word. I think he's humiliated. I think he feels shame. It even says that the sham shoots to his face. Whenever all of this is revealed, he confesses openly what. What his sins are. He confesses that he was a coward. He confesses that he loved his life too much. The one thing, and I don't think you guys talked about it. The one thing I've always found fascinating. And again, I'm not sure I want to let Gowan off the hook. So all of this stuff of Gowen that I'm talking about, I hold him in high esteem. Anyone who can kind of eviscerate themselves like this, feel that shame. Fantastic. You learned your lesson. But the thing that always bothers me is when he says, come back to the castle. Gowan's reason for doing it is he goes through a biblical catalog and he says, I'm not falling for the tricks again. As Adam was duped, as Solomon was duped, as Samson was duped, they're all duped by these women. And in some ways you could go, okay, well, that's part of the medieval exegetical tradition, though. You just laid all the blame on yourself and all of your cowardice, and now you're shifting to go. But it really was the woman who did it. And I think what gives the game away is the last biblical character that he lists is David. The way in which David is duped by Bathsheba. That is such a minority exegetical reading that, that I don't know that our poet would even have access to it. The only kind of exegetical tradition in which David is quote unquote, duped by Bathsheba, kind of forced by him, is a hyperalgorical reading where she is supposed to just be this embodiment of lust that kind of rests in our heart. And David is kind of this every man that you have to wrestle with it because it's coming. But that would be it. I don't. The vast majority, even Augustine sees. Augustine sees David's taking of Bathsheba as a real abuse of his power that almost all exegetes see that David is the wrong and what he's done with Bathsheba. So for Gallen to use that as his last example. And again, maybe the poet is thinking of the allegorical. I don't think so, because it doesn't even make sense. If Gowan really gives. It's not really gives into that lust, but I think the David one kind of shows his hand that I think he is just kind of reaching there, which again, it's just kind of this doubleness there. Maybe it's a nice way of, of stepping out. Maybe it's a nice way of insulting Lady Bertilak with the Bible. If you can't, if, if, if in a courtly way, you can't yell at the woman and you can't blame her, well, then a nice way to do it is go, oh, yeah, she's just like all of these other biblical models. But I think he gives the game away with Bathsheba. I, I don't know how much he actually means that or that we should take it all that seriously.
- [75:08]
A
Yeah, a few thoughts. One is, you know, my, my initial reaction, I read that is that he's, he's kind of grasping at the, in that moment, right? He's in the moment of being revealed. He's trying to figure out what's going on. He's grasping a little bit. Well, what's interesting is I agree, agree that David is probably the most clear example of the fact that it's actually the male's fault. It's not actually like the female, like particularly Bathsheba. That's, that's a wild example. What's interesting is I actually took all of them to show that Sir Gallon was still the one at fault because even like Adam, okay, so that's the one that people mention all the time. Eve tempted Adam. Okay, well, Adam said yes, it still Adam's fault. Samson is actually very much like Sir Gallon was, in which Samson continually put himself back in a situation with a woman that he knew was not seeking his good Solomon. No one feels bad for Solomon. Solomon had all these foreign wives. It's all his fault anyway. So David in a certain way is like the most extreme example because not only clearly Bathsheba did not tempt him and also then David had Uriah killed him. And it's a whole disaster of a moral situation which then he suffered tremendously after that. But I actually took all those examples to be like, yeah, sure, you can blame the woman, but just like Adam blaming the woman doesn't work. You're still responsible for your own sins.
- [76:28]
B
Look, I agree with you. If we're reading scripture, just claw scripture, right? I mean, sometimes you sit there and you think Samson's a Christ figure. He's not the sharpest tool in the, the box here, right? I mean, he's just simply not there. He is as a Nazarite tearing down the temple, you understand. But again, that's that Christological thing. So the first three. So as someone who, you know, part of my study is just the history of exegesis and how they're reading these things. The first three, usually if you want to find a blame in that, in that exegetical tradition, those first three, the women are quite often blamed. I agree with your readings of Scripture. It's just the fourth one, exegetically, it just doesn't play out. It's just an incredibly a minority read there that it's got to be purely allegorical but it's purely allegorical, predicated upon lust, which has nothing to do with any of Gawain's temptations there. So I just always find it funny that he slips up so quickly again. It's just something fun in this poem. It's the bliss and the blunder, and the poet just loves to give you one and then give you another.
- [77:33]
A
Okay, so then let's. Let's talk about the very end of the poem.
- [77:36]
B
Yeah.
- [77:37]
A
Because this is an interesting comparison. So I'll read. This is how Tolkien has it. So he comes back and he makes it to King Arthur's court, and he's telling them what he has done. And it says, this is. This is stanza 101. Which, by the way, as a side note, the Pearl also has 101 stanzas.
- [77:56]
B
Correct.
- [77:56]
A
That mean anything.
- [77:57]
B
Oh. Oh, yeah. So just very quickly, and I don't want to get too sidetracked here, but in the Middle Ages, they. They like to have arguments over which. Which number was more reflective of the divine, where the. The number 100 means perfection. It's kind of that completeness that's there. So, you know, so Dante. Dante's obsessed with. And it's great. I can talk to your listeners here about Dante and they'll know this stuff. He's very obsessed with the trinitarian model, because once you get to Paradiso, you realize that the Trinity is at the. It's at the. At the foundation of all truth in this world. So, you know, he. He invents Terza Rima, 11 syllables for each one of the. Of the three lines, which gives you 33. Every poem has 33 cantos, and every realm has these sections of three, except he gives you an introduction in Inferno. So Inferno has 34 Cantos. There's your number 100. He didn't want to end with 99, even though it would have been reflective of the Trinity. He wants to get to that 100. So it's indicative of perfection. All right, take his contemporary, Giovanni Boccaccio. Boccaccio writes the Decameron, 10 people, 10, telling 10 tales over 10 days. And you sit there and you go, oh, there's another guy who wants 100? He does. Except Boccaccio takes the other line that it's reflective of God. And if people have ever read the Decameron, saying Boccaccio and God in the same sentence may strike you as a little odd. No. At the end of his life. At the end of Boccaccio's life, he took on Minor orders. And he begged his friends to destroy the copies of. Of the Decameron. Nevertheless, he also thinks it's reflective of God. But the second image of the reflective reflection of God isn't a completeness but an excessiveness kind of that. That infinitude of God. So Boccaccio actually fits another story into his Decameron. So it comes out to 101. Obviously we know where the Pearl poet or the Gowan poet sits with this one. He takes it as an indication of that sort of excessiveness, the infinitude of God, which kind of gives us the image I talked about the first time. If we think of time horizontally, it just doesn't work in the poem. If you think about it liturgically, it's a repetition, but it's always an excessiveness. You know, form to finissement. The beginning and the end never match up the same. So I think that's the explanation for the 100 versus the 01, which then plays out beautifully at the end of the poem. Since we're here, the. That's great. We can, we can tease out. I'm glad you asked the question of 100 to 101 because I think it plays out here in this last stanza as well.
- [80:40]
A
Okay, very good. No, I appreciate that a lot. And yeah, thank you for bringing Dante into that as well. That was a good comparison. So here it says, this is how Tolkien translates. It stands 101 down a couple lines. It says, the king comforted the night and all the court also laughed loudly there at. And this law made in mercy the lords and the ladies, that whoso belonged to the table. Every knight of the brotherhood, a baldric should have a band of bright green obliquely about him. And this for love of that night as livery should wear. So how do we take. You know, because they.
- [81:19]
B
He.
- [81:19]
A
He comes in and gives, I guess basically he says his own sins, right? He says, this is what I've done. Etc, and now I wear this girdle. And they kind of laugh and they receive. Do they receive this light heartedly? And then they're saying, I'm gonna wear this. Like, some people read this as like they're mocking him. Some people read this as like they love him and they love how serious he takes things. And so they're joining him in that.
- [81:40]
B
Yeah.
- [81:40]
A
How should we read this? This mirth that they have.
- [81:43]
B
Yeah. So let me, Let me just. And I'll just look at that line. And they laugh loudly there at. In the middle English is luffily so graciously accordin. That's important. This word accordant, that means they agree to do this. And I just want to make a quick correction here of. Of. Of Tolkien's translation. I'm surprised he translated it this way. You said the lords and the ladies. It means the lords and the men. Lades, he's working from a different manuscript emendation. Because ladies wouldn't have done this. So just, just make a note there. I think it's the Lord's and the other men who were at the. At the. At the table there as well, and they each wore it around them. But the line that I think you have to go to after all of this to. To begin to answer the question. And again, I don't know that it answers it, but it will stick us in the middle of. Oh, this is why it's so hard to answer. It says it's the next one for that. For that Baldric. And this is a difficult line to translate. So Tolkien's may be very different than. Than mine. So I'm taking my own for that. For that Baldrick was accorded. Right. Agreed to. By the renown, by the glory of the Round Table. That there is the renown of the Round Table. The glory of the. So you're wondering, why are they laughing? Why are they putting it on? I think the poem answers it there. It's. Somehow they're going to wear this for their own good. Glory. That gives me pause. If Gowan's wearing it for his shame and he's like, this is going to be indicative of my. Of my cowardice, my sin of untrouth. They've changed that. They've changed it to the glory of the Round Table. That may be a little problematic. I don't want to say it definitively, but those are the words that. That the renown. They agreed to wear it on behalf of him for the glory of the Round Table. Okay, how do you take. You want. So now we. Now what are we doing? We're going from blunder, the green. The green sash to what bliss. They're laughing now. It's become a courtly game. We're all going to wear it for the renown of the Round Table. Did you learn the lesson that Gowan learned, by the way? I don't know. I don't know that they do. I just know that this could be read as yet another entryway into blunder. And this, by the way, this. Doesn't this just accord beautifully with Tolkien's overall reading? Gowan and his Christian shame and humility. Gets that very symbol of that shame and humility appropriated by the court, and it turns it into something else. Look, I liked your guys reading, to be honest, I liked your guys reading. I thought you were a little too easy on the court. I like the. I like your guys charitable reading. They're welcoming him back. What they're saying is, because you failed, you can't actually hurt our reputation. We'll bring you back into that reputation, which I think is beautiful. But then for the renown or the glory of that roundtable, it's like, okay, but let's not forget what that glory or renown is coming from. It's coming from kind of this shamed knight. Let's not forget that. That would probably be a really good lesson to learn, especially since at the beginning of Fit2, the entire court said they couldn't believe that their king would allow something for. Like. Like this to happen out of this sort of silly pride that he has. I. I have. I have a tendency to think that they may be misappropriating the green girdle.
- [85:22]
A
You know, I really like you making that kind of a microcosm of the problem overall, of you take a Christian truth and then it gets appropriated into chivalric. What's interesting about that read that I like is that they can do this while still liking Sir Gawain. Like, they're not mocking him, they actually appreciate him, but as. As they appreciate him, they misunderstood or at least don't receive well, his lesson. And when it gets translated related to them, it takes on a different aspect. Go ahead.
- [85:51]
B
Oh, and this is what I meant by the kiss of peace as well, is it gets lost in Christianity, but it gets redeveloped here in. In chivalry, I think in a good way. I think in a Christian way. Not. Not here in the poem. But I mean, overall, is that sign of reconciliation there? I think that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to reconcile. They're trying to come together. I'm just. We'll just say if I know the history of England that I'm told in this poem, it's bliss and blunder, then I kind of have to wonder, oh, no, did we miss this lesson? Are we ready to go blunder some more? If we can't pick up on the cowardice and coveting one's life too much, the sin of untroud. Yeah.
- [86:31]
A
Okay, so last question here at the very end. How are we supposed to receive this motto in old folk French?
- [86:38]
B
Oh, yeah, If I could before I get there.
- [86:42]
A
Oh, yeah, go for it.
- [86:43]
B
If I could return. Because the poet, as I said, he'll begin a poem and he likes to return to it. And I think it's because of that cyclical nature, because Gawain is not the Gowan we see at the beginning. Nothing of this poem is the beginning except he wants to start at the beginning. And it's the last. It's the last two lines that kind of critics, we very much disagree with what's going on here, these last two lines, because now we start back at the beginning, but look at how we end it now. May there be the crown of thorns that bring us to his. How does Tolkien translate it? His bliss, meaning Christ's bliss. So, and then it says amin. That means that the poet who says, England's entire history is one of bliss and blunder. The last two lines break us through eschatologically, I think, to say, no matter how much you mess up dear England, between bliss and blunder, and it's not just England. I don't want to make this political. Dear human beings who are reading this poem just know that that final end is Christ bringing you to his bliss, which is that which will break the blunder. I mean, I blunder. God knows how many times I blunder per day. You hope you get to the prayer corner and you can, you know, you get to liturgy and you want to bring back that bliss. But I know what's going to happen. Here comes the blunder. But I want to go back to the bliss because of the promise of that eschatological bliss. So a lot of people take it as just a simple pious gesture by the poet, because he's a very pious poet. They take it as a pious gesture. And it may be, but I actually take it as a poetic gesture. But what it's saying is all this cyclical stuff from bliss to blunder, there is finally going to be the eschatological breakthrough in which all there is is just bliss. And that's the bliss of Christ. With the crown of thorns there, you want to replace the sash, you want to replace the pentangle, you want to replace all that stuff. He replaces it with one final symbol here, the crown of thorns. Right. You know, which is. Which is kind of this. Of self sacrificial existence that's there. So I wanted to make sure that your listeners actually see that last kind of invocation of Christ actually has a poetic meaning behind it. And it's not just simply a formulaic prayer that the poet's going to give at the End now. The final motto. Yeah, go ahead, please.
- [89:18]
A
No, I. Thank you. I really appreciate you bringing that out. I just. I just looked real quickly, too, that he also ends the Pearl with Amen. Amen.
- [89:28]
B
Yeah.
- [89:28]
A
I was curious whether that was just a cultural ending or whether that's very intentional.
- [89:32]
B
I think it's. With him and Pearl Boy. I find Pearl to be. It's. I think it's the most exquisite poem in the English language. In the Middle English, though. What he's doing in that poem is absolutely wild.
- [89:46]
A
I haven't ever read it critically, but I think I told you last time, the first time I read. I sat down to read it. It's because I loved Sir Gawain. And I was like, okay, good. I'll. I'll read the Pearl. We'll see what this is about. And it destroyed me. I have very few things in my life that have had made that reaction. And I actually, you know, I. I had what I would call the honor a while back. We had some friends, some dear friends whose child died in utero and still had to be delivered. And so there were remains. And so they asked me to give the. Give the homily at the funeral. And so we. We gathered. And the individual is actually part of my Sunday Great Books group that gathers at my house and reads. And so most of my friends were all there along with all these families. And I don't know if you've ever done this as a. As a deacon, but those types of funerals are very challenging and very difficult to try and give some kind of words of comfort. And in my homily, I actually pulled in imagery from the pearl and actually talked about the spiritual transformation that goes through in the Pearl. It's an amazing, amazing poem.
- [90:57]
B
It's funny, no matter how harsh I was with Sir Gawain in my youth, I was brutal with the dreamer in Pearl. I showed you every theological mistake this guy made. I showed you every piece of objectifying language. I showed you everywhere where he was missing the mark, so on and so forth. It wasn't until I was writing my dissertation, which was on this manuscript, and I just had my own child and her room was right next to my office. Here I am dissertating, and I'm still pretty harsh with the dreamer. And then my baby cries and of course, I get up from my desk immediately and run in there. And I just went, holy crikey, what am I doing? Like, I'm an idiot. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Not only that, you know, but here I am in my late 20s and I'm like, are you still having this stupid reading that when you were 21, 22, my good. And it was my. It was my newborn daughter who actually broke through for me that. Yeah, look, is he getting things? No, but do I get it? Yes. Because what words do you have? In fact, I discovered he's more right than I am in kind of his anger at the beginning of the poem. It's like, yes, he should be. That's a far more theological position. His anger is a far more deeply theological position than mine was in saying, well, you just have to accept the mystery of God and his ways aren't your. I was an idiot. Right. It was his anger at God that actually revealed something to me. So nevertheless, I had to go back and rewrite lots of that chapter.
- [92:40]
A
Yeah. My eldest is a girl, and for a while, God, Providence. We thought it might be the only child that we have. And again, had no idea what the pearl was about. Read it and it just tore me up inside. So I would love to talk to you about the pearl someday, but just a matter at hand. Staying focused. This last. This last line. This last, like, line of old friends. What are we to make of this?
- [93:06]
B
Yeah. So arguments. Was it the original scribe's hand? I don't think it was. Okay, so that's step one. Could it have been the illustrator's hand? So it's an illuminated manuscript. So could it have been the illustrator's hand? It could be. Could it have been a later reader who took it upon himself to put it in? It could. So the phrase actually comes from the order of the garter that was established in 1340, which would have been well before the poem. Some critics make a big deal that the order of the garter for Edward was blue, since this one's green. They have nothing in common. That. That seems a bit much to me. I don't know that I would base everything on the color of a. Of a garter. That can't be what it is. But there is one interesting thing, and I. Again, I don't know what to make of it. The actual order of the garters on a swa. Came out each which evil be to him who thinks evil of it. So the legend goes, when she drops the garter on the floor, that's what's pronounced. But the ID is pointing to it, which means. This literally means evil be to him who thinks evil. Now, for me, since I have a reading here on the chivalric and cowardice, I've often wondered if this isn't kind of a general moral principle here that we may project onto people the things which we ourselves will go ahead and do and assume that they'll do it, do it to us. For. For me, it's kind of what Gowan's problem was. It's what the. It's what Camelot's problem was. They had the choice between greenness or nightliness. And they chose greenness, that this one's wholly other. Whereas if they had chose nightliness, I don't know that they would have thought even evil of him. So that's one reading. The other question is, is it only for Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, or is it for the entire four poems inside of the manuscript? It could very well be the latter, because the other two poems are called Cleanness. I talked about that briefly. And what's known as Patience, which possiance in Middle English at that point really just meant suffering. So. So it's a long poem on the book of Jonah. It's a meditation on suffering in all the ways Jonah goes wrong. Same with Cleanness. Kind of an apocalyptic poem. So it could be a line that encompasses kind of the moral vision of all four poems as well.
- [95:44]
A
Good. I really appreciate you kind of expanding on that because. Yeah, it's kind of a mysterious line there at the end. And there's lots of different commentaries and things like that. Well, this has been fantastic. I appreciate you. I appreciate you kind of leading us through this. I just want, again, tell you. Thank you. That I think you really helped me open up to this poem to understand kind of the depth that I don't think I was seeing there in the beginning. And as we know, knowledge is an antecedent to love. And so the more you've kind of invited me to see the tension in this text, the. The kind of brilliance of the poet, these kind of things actually have just come out with a great greater appreciation and greater love of this work. And so I just want to tell you. Thank you.
- [96:24]
B
Thanks. I mean, thanks for having me. This is. I mean, this is great. Anytime I can talk about Sir Kellon of the Green Knight, I'm always happy to do it. I just think. I think the world of the poet. I love the poem, and I really appreciate the fact that you were. You know, you kind of gave me the freedom to kind of investigate maybe controversial readings. They're just not a straightforward reading. I think I can back them up pretty well, just parsing the Middle English closely. So I appreciate your patience and not just kind of blowing it off and going, well, that, that doesn't. That's not too mainstream. Go away now. So. So I appreciate that very much.
- [97:01]
A
That's been very good. This might not be a fair question, but. So for people who, like, really enjoyed this, let's say this is like, they haven't read anything like this before. Maybe they're not familiar with King Arthur. They're not familiar with this whole time period of literature. Butcher, if someone who actually really enjoyed reading Sir Gawain the Green Knight, what other works would you recommend to them?
- [97:19]
B
Oh, so the. The Medieval Institute Press out of Kalamazoo, Michigan, they have a collection. It's just called 11. I. I forget, 11 Gowan romances. So it's. It's a nice collection and they're very, very. And they're very different as well. You guys read Mallory's Arthuriad. I don't call it the Morte d', Arthur, that's just a part of it. But the Arthuriad, okay, you'll learn that kind of. That French tradition. But if you want to, if you want a fun one, it's called the alliterative Mort Darthur. So it's actually part of this era, 14th century, and it takes that Death of Arthur, but it writes it in an alliterative poetry. And so it's a fun poem. I think you would like that. You'd like that a lot. That's the English tradition. If you want to go back to the old French tradition, the place really to go sink your teeth into is Chretien de Troyes. They're all borrowing from Chretien. And if you want the Celtic tradition, I think in my first talk, I called it Old Irish. I was thinking of a beheading game, and so it probably confused readers as they went to look it up. But it's what's known as the Mabinogian, but it's part of the Celtic tradition, not the old Irish tradition. Celtic tradition. And there are arguments amongst scholars as to, one, which one came first, and two, which one are these English poets playing off of the most? Is it going to be something local or is it going to be something courtly that's been imported to us? And if I could finish this off, and it's certainly not medieval, but once they read all of these texts, before any of your readers die, they need to go read Cervantes, Don Quixote, which I take as one of the greatest chivalric works ever written. It's just amazing.
- [99:11]
A
That's good. I really appreciate that. Remind us where we can find out more about you and your work.
- [99:17]
B
Yeah, so I'm at Hillsdale College. You can just go to my page. I do have a substack. It's very close to yours, but it's called, I forget, Bibleandliterature.substack.com. my producer and I had big ideas that, you know, we would do something on Sir Gawain and homeschoolers would like to watch. We'll do something on Homer. But I've been stuck in scripture for three years. And if any of your viewers have seen my free online courses at Hillsdale, it's just in that line, I spend a year on Genesis, and it's a very literary reading. I try to stay away from Christological readings, which I'm trained in, but just trying to show them, here's kind of the language of Scripture. Here are its narrative techniques, here are its poetic techniques, and to take them through. So I've done Genesis, I've done Exodus. I'm working through first Samuel right now. We'll go to Second Samuel next. So right now it's just all biblical stuff, but it's fun for me. It's called how do you read it? Which I steal from Christ in his question of the parable of the Good Samaritan, when the lawyer says, what do we have to do to be saved? And it's the medievalist in me who loves this question. And Christ goes, you know, what does scripture say? How do you read it? Because that will tell you what you need to know about salvation. You tell me how you're reading scripture and what it has to do with your salvation, and then we go from there. So thank you again for asking me about it.
- [100:46]
A
Yeah, very good. All right, everyone go and check that out. And then next week, we are starting Dante's Purgatorio for Lent. So we'll have Dr. Jason Baxter come on and talk about his new translation of Purgatorio. And then the week after, we will start reading it for Lent. If you haven't read the Purgatorio, we also have seven episodes up to guide you through Dante's Inferno, which we did last Lent. So many opportunities to grow and to become more beautiful as Christ is beautiful this Lent. Go check out X, YouTube, Facebook, and Patreon, and we will see you all next week. Thank you.