Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Episode Summary: The Euthyphro by Plato Part II with Dr. Joey Spencer and Friends

Date: September 2, 2025
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guests: Dr. Frank Grabowski, Mr. Thomas Lackey, Dr. Joey Spencer

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode concludes Ascend's in-depth exploration of Plato’s Euthyphro, one of philosophy’s foundational dialogues on the question of piety. The hosts and their guests examine the famous "Euthyphro Dilemma"—“Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?”—as well as how Plato’s conversation between Socrates and Euthyphro echoes and advances debates about justice, the gods, and moral foundations found in the Greek literary tradition. The panel analyzes Plato’s possible intentions (is Socrates aiming to define piety or to transform Euthyphro?), the wider context of piety in ancient Greek life, and the mechanics of philosophical dialogue itself.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Study Euthyphro After the Greek Poets and Playwrights?

• [04:00] The hosts reflect on their “Year of Homer” and how reading the great Greek poets and dramatists before Plato provides essential cultural and philosophical context.
  • Garlick: “If you haven't read the masters…then when you read the students, you don't understand how much they are an echo of the ideas that have come before them.” [05:27]
  • The connection is vital: Homer’s questioning of the gods’ justice and virtue, and the plays’ obsession with piety, all feed into the Euthyphro's central dilemmas.
  • Spencer: “If you don't know who those people [in myth] are and what they did, then you're gonna kind of be lost.” [08:02]

2. Greek vs. Modern Piety

• [09:00+]
  • Ancient Greek piety is communal and relational, not merely private and devotional.
  • Today, “pious” is often a pejorative—aloof, naïve, Pharisaical.
    • Garlick: “Sometimes, ‘pious’ means…he’s not engaged in reality, or you. You can’t have that kind of mature conversation with him.” [11:48]
  • Grabowski: “The Greeks certainly had a more robust relational conception of piety...” [11:02]

3. Into the Text—Euthyphro’s Definitions of Piety

• [12:46–16:56]
  • First definition: Piety is “doing what I’m doing.”
    • Socratic response: Not substantive; it’s circular.
  • Second definition (6e): Pious is “what is dear to the gods.”
    • Socrates objects (7b): But the gods disagree! In Homer, they are in open conflict (e.g., the Iliad—gods on both sides of the Trojan War).
    • Garlick: “What does the argument end up being?...anyone who has read Homer knows that the gods don't agree.” [15:38]
    • Lackey: “Paris was dear to Aphrodite, Menelaus was dear to Zeus…” [16:56]
  • Spencer: The gods may agree on the principles, not the particulars. [17:10]

4. Ancient Critique and Evolution of the Pantheon

• [18:34+]
  • Is Homer (and Hesiod) subversively critiquing the gods by displaying their immorality?
  • The Euthyphro Dilemma is present before Plato, especially in the tragedies where loyalty to law and the gods is under scrutiny (e.g., Antigone appeals to laws "higher than the gods").
  • Grabowski: “I think that there are, even among these dramatists, there's an awareness of a fundamental problem within the Greek pantheon…” [25:20]
  • Moral sense seems inherent—characters in myth judge even gods by standards of justice.

5. The Euthyphro Dilemma Proper

• [42:47–50:44]
  • Socrates: “Is the pious being loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?” [42:47]
  • First horn: Piety is objective—gods love it because it is inherently pious (aligns with “realist metaphysics”).
  • Second horn: Piety is what the gods love—because they love it. Voluntarism: morality is determined by arbitrary divine will.
  • Lackey: “If you go down that road [voluntarism], you’re never going to grasp the essence of piety because there isn’t any essence of piety.” [46:50]
  • Spencer: “Ends up being relativism.” [47:44]
  • Panel notes that Euthyphro surprisingly chooses the first, Platonic horn—intuitively upholding objective standards.

6. Justice and Piety—Venn Diagrams and Species

• [58:35–66:38]
  • Socrates: Is all that is pious just? Is all that is just pious? (Venn diagram metaphor)
  • Piety is a subset (species) of justice (genus).
  • Lackey: “If you separated love of God and neighbor with a cleaver…, you can’t tug them apart.” [61:09]
  • The dialogue pushes toward seeing religious and moral obligations as deeply intertwined.

7. Euthyphro’s Final Definition—Piety as “Care of the Gods”

• [66:38–74:31]
  • Euthyphro suggests piety is the “care” of the gods, comparable to how one tends cattle.
  • Socrates presses: Does our care “improve” the gods? No—so what does service mean?
  • Euthyphro stalls, then returns to “what is pleasing to the gods,” circling back to an earlier, rejected answer.
  • Notably, Socrates expresses frustration (“You almost can hear Socrates scream internally…” [72:34])—the conversation has gone in a circle.

8. Missed Path—Cooperation With the Divine

• [74:31–79:32]
  • Lackey: Raises whether true piety is being “a cooperative instrument of the gods”—not for their benefit, but for others and ourselves.
  • The notion isn’t developed in this dialogue but foreshadows Socrates’ claim in the Apology to be a “gadfly” on a divine mission.

9. Purpose of the Dialogue—Transformation or Definition?

• [81:59+]
  • Did Plato/Socrates intend to provide a definition of piety or to turn Euthyphro away from hubris/rash action?
  • Grabowski: “I would say the latter…Socrates sees an opportunity here to, to turn Euthyphro around…” [84:59]
  • Euthyphro’s hasty exit—comic and telling. Has he been changed? Likely—enough to reconsider prosecuting his father for murder.
  • Reflections on Socratic irony: Socrates helps others recognize their ignorance rather than outright teaching them.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “If you haven’t read the masters…you don’t understand how much they are an echo of the ideas that have come before them.”
  — Deacon Harrison Garlick, [05:27]

• “The Greeks certainly had a more robust relational conception of piety, where it lay between the worshipper…and…family or the state or the gods. I think that’s been lost over time.”
  — Dr. Frank Grabowski, [11:02]

• “Is the pious being loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?”
  — Socrates (via Deacon Garlick), [42:47]

• “Ends up being relativism.”
  — Dr. Joey Spencer, [47:44]

• “Euthyphro’s various propositions are not all wrong. [They’re like] the symposium where you have the various speeches on love…they’re all illuminating love in some aspect.”
  — Mr. Thomas Lackey, [53:30]

• “Euthyphro has made the choice that is correct…we would not have expected him to make [it].”
  — Deacon Harrison Garlick, [55:18]

• “Socrates serves as Euthyphro’s daemon, right? He doesn’t tell Euthyphro these are the answers, but rather…he helps Euthyphro to realize what the wrong answers are.”
  — Dr. Frank Grabowski, [89:23]

• “He’s standing next to a guy who’s being charged with impiety, and he’s coming to agree with him.”
  — Deacon Harrison Garlick, [93:37]

Important Segment Timestamps

• 05:00 – Importance of reading the Greek playwrights before tackling Plato
• 11:00 – What is piety? Ancient vs. modern meanings
• 16:56 – Gods’ disagreement and the problem of piety in the Greek tradition
• 25:20 – Pre-Platonic critique of the gods and the origins of the Euthyphro dilemma
• 42:47 – The Euthyphro Dilemma stated and unpacked
• 61:09 – Venn diagram of justice and piety
• 66:38 – Euthyphro’s final definition and the dialogue’s collapse
• 81:59 – Is the dialogue about piety or about Euthyphro’s transformation?
• 89:23 – Socratic irony and leaving interlocutors with questions

Concluding Observations

• The episode argues compellingly that Euthyphro is not just a sterile philosophical puzzle. It’s also a living engagement with the legacy of Greek literature and religion and a dramatic attempt by Socrates to awaken his interlocutor—and indirectly, the reader—to philosophical humility.
• The famous Euthyphro Dilemma opens seismic questions about divine command, objective morality, and the possibility of real, knowable truth—a debate that echoes through Western thought.
• The panel recommends keeping these insights alive while reading Plato’s Apology and into future discussions of piety—especially as it is recast in light of Christianity.

Next Episodes Teased

• The Euthyphro Dilemma in a Christian context (with Dr. Donald Prudlow)
• Plato’s Apology (with Fr. Christopher Justin Brophy)

Panelists:
Deacon Harrison Garlick · Adam Minihan · Dr. Frank Grabowski · Mr. Thomas Lackey · Dr. Joey Spencer
Ascend - The Great Books Podcast | September 2025