← Ascend - The Great Books Podcast
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- [00:00]
Host
The old maid Eurycleia, laughing with delight, runs and tells Penelope that the day she's dreamed of is here. Odysseus has come home. Penelope's heart bursts in joy upon hearing that the beggar in the hall was actually her husband. Penelope, however, falls back into her guarded skepticism. She enters the hall and sits in silence, studying his face in numbing wonderful Meanwhile, Odysseus counsels Telemachus on the threat of the suitors being avenged and asks that the whole house be full of dancing and merrymaking to hide the fact the suitors have all been slain. Odysseus is bathed and Penelope instructs her servants to drag the marital bed out of the chamber for the strange man to sleep on. Odysseus falls into a fury as he knows the marital bed he made cannot be moved. It is made of the stump of an olive tree still rooted in the ground. Odysseus passes the test and Penelope runs to him and embraces him in tears. Odysseus tells her of his penitential journey he must undertake to appease Poseidon, and after the two delight in each other, he tells her of his journey home. The book ends with Odysseus, inspired by Athena, going out into the country to visit his father welcome to Ascend the Great Books Podcast. We're very happy that you are here today. Today we are looking at book 23 of the Odyssey as we get very close to wrapping up our year of Homer. You can check us out@thegreatbookspodcast.com where we have a wonderful question answer guide on the Odyssey that can help you kind of follow along and you can also check us out on Twitter and YouTube. So today we're very happy to have a wonderful guest with us. Mrs. Rachel Greb teaches 12th grade Humanities at Veritas. Prior to joining the faculty, Mrs. Greb had administrative and teaching roles at two other classical Christian schools as well as experience serving as a Director of of Secondary Partnerships for clt. Her love for the classic text was awakened when she read Homer's Odyssey, and she earned a BA in Christian Studies from Hillsdale College and an MA in Christian and Classical Studies from Knox Theological Seminary. Mrs. Greb is currently pursuing a doctorate degree in a History of Philosophy of Education. She and her husband Jason have two daughters who attend Veritas as well as three adult children and two grandchildren. Well, welcome Rachel.
- [02:50]
Rachel Greb
Thank you. It's so great to be here.
- [02:52]
Host
So I heard a rumor that you have read the Odyssey 23 times and that you carry it around with you almost at all times. Is that true?
- [03:03]
Rachel Greb
That is true. It might be 24 by now. I've lost track the last couple of years because sometimes I read it more than once per year.
- [03:12]
Host
No, that is very good. So what? So in your bio there, it says that, you know, you're awakened to the classics by reading Homer's Odyssey. So what originally kind of captured your imagination?
- [03:23]
Rachel Greb
So I didn't have a classical education, excuse me, growing up. And it wasn't until I went to Hillsdale and in my freshman literature course, which was really a walk through the great books, that this was the first time I was really getting exposed to them. And, of course, the Odyssey was one of the very first things we read. And I will never forget the experience. It feels like it happened yesterday and it's been many years now, but it felt like I was given oxygen and I'd been drowning my whole life. And I couldn't believe the things that I felt like were awakening. And I was thinking about for the first time when it came to the great question of all the great books, of what does it mean to be human? And here we were reading this ancient text, 2500 years old, and it was all there, and all of the great things that people think about love and home and family and loyalty and honor and justice and paideia and how to honor the gods. You know, all of those things were. Were part of my experience in reading, reading the Odyssey for the first time. And it's just stayed with me. And every time I read it, I feel like I discover more of what Homer put in the text.
- [04:52]
Host
That's wonderful. I'm assuming then you've kind of baked it into your humanities teaching at Veritas.
- [04:58]
Rachel Greb
I have. So the interesting thing is, you might notice that I teach modern history and literature. So many of the books that I'm reading with my students are things like Lewis's space trilogy. And we're about to start Crime and Punishment. We're reading Gatsby, we're reading Jaber Crow by Wendell Berry, and we're studying the modern era. So everything from Reconstruction in the United States, post Civil War forward. So, you know, where does the Odyssey fit in this? And what I've done the last couple of years is because the students of Veritas do read the Odyssey and the Iliad in 8th grade, but because I teach 12th grade, I have them reread the Odyssey because the experience of rereading a classic text is so valuable, and they're not the same person they were the first time they read it at 12 or 13, 14 years old, that they are now at 17, 18 years old. And so just to give them that experience of reflecting on a text in a very different way and having had five years of life experience in between, the first time and the second time of reading a text is a really wonderful way to cap off their senior year. So it's actually the last. Very last thing we read prior to graduation for the seniors.
- [06:17]
Host
Yeah, I found that true to be. Found that true to be as well, where reading the Odyssey at different times in your life or even the Iliad reflects very differently. Because I think the first time I read the Iliad and the Odyssey, I much more preferred the Odyssey. And then in this kind of year in Homer, my imagination's really been captured by the Iliad. Right. It's interesting how it kind of oscillates, you know, back and forth. So as you look at the Odyssey as a whole, because we're kind of right here, you know, at the end. The first time you read it, like, was there a particular scene or something that really kind of stood out to you?
- [06:57]
Rachel Greb
The very first time I read it, I'd have to say probably. I mean, honestly, the. The coming of age of Telemachus is such an important theme throughout the book, and it. And it gets overshadowed a little bit by, you know, Odysseus's storytelling and his own. His own adventure. But the love between Odysseus and Penelope, of course, is so important. But the coming of age of Telemachus was really what kind of captured me the first time reading it since then, you know, that's, I think, still a really important. It's one of the biggest themes of the Odyssey. But there's so many things now that I've noticed, you know, in addition to that, and every time I read it, it's one of those, like, if you're watching your favorite film, you know, like, oh, this is my favorite part. And then you go on to the next part, you're like, no, actually, this is my favorite part, you know? You know, you just. It's hard to pick a. Hard to pick a specific place where it really, you know, seems to, like, everything is encapsulated at once.
- [07:59]
Host
That's. That's fascinating that it's Telemachus Journey that originally captured your imagination, because I find that so secondary for most people, even after they've read it a couple times. There's really not an appreciation for the coming of age story there. I think for me, the first time I read the Odyssey, I had not Read the Iliad. So Telemachus. So, like, Telemachus kind of going off. I actually found the video very burdensome read because I didn't have an appreciation for, like, Nestor or Menelaus. Right. As opposed to now reading it. I'm like, oh, you know, they're alive. Like, this guy made it. Right? Or like, oh, this is my old friend that I've read, you know, thousands and thousands of lines of poetry about. And so I would. I don't think I really fell for the Odyssey until the Cyclops narrative, that book. Once I read that particular book. What is that? Book nine, I think.
- [08:48]
Rachel Greb
Yeah.
- [08:49]
Host
Once I read that, then I was like, I love this book. Like, this is an amazing book because I was like, there's all these layers of the story just immediately became alive. But I think it's fascinating that it's Telemachus coming of age story that stood out to you first.
- [09:01]
Rachel Greb
Yeah, yeah. And I would say that the whole story with Polyphemus is really incredible too. Like you said, that story gets expanded in a different way than his adventures up to that point. He kind of summarizes. And then that one takes a long time to go through. And there's a lot of reasons why he needs to spend the time with it that he does. But all of the great questions are there about. About what does it mean to be human? And then what happens when people live apart from. They don't live in community and they live as a law unto themselves. And that is really kind of a central theme there in book nine.
- [09:46]
Host
Yeah. The Cyclops being very atomized apart from one another. Yeah. I think that one of the things that I've been contemplating on this read through the Odyssey are the deep parallels that I see between the Cyclops narrative and then the book that we just covered, the slaughter in the hall. Right. That I. That I think that it really kind of occurred to me this time how similar Odysseus is, you know, to the cyclops. Right. In certain ways that the cyclops finds Odysseus in his home. These guests are, I think, arguably in violation of guest friendship. Right. First they come to raid him, then they're going to see what guest friendship they can get out of him. And then, you know, the irony is that the host eats his guests. Right. He doesn't feast them. Right. They become the feast. And I just think that tracks really well with what we just saw. And kind of the aftermath that we're still dealing with in this book is that, you know, Odysseus also comes Home. And there's people in violation of guest friendship. Right. These guests that really should not be here. And we even saw in the last book that Homer very intentionally plays off the slaughter and also food and feasting metaphors.
- [10:57]
Rachel Greb
Right.
- [10:58]
Host
He talks about their blood being on the bread meat. He talks about their blood being mixed in with the drink. Right. I think Odysseus, at the end of the book prior, talks to Telemachus about providing them the supper. Right. That they deserve. Right. So there's this, like. There's this. That in a certain way, Odysseus is going to consume his guests as well. Right. That he gives them this feast, this bloodshed. You know, luckily now we're moving into a kind of a much more delightful, uplifting book. But that's one of the themes that I've been tracking through this read was just the parallels between Odysseus and the cyclops.
- [11:36]
Rachel Greb
Yeah. And he has to. And he has to make a distinction, though, with the Fiakians because of their connection to the cyclops through Poseidon. So he has to make a really clear distinction that the cyclops are the, you know, are the barbarians, and he clearly is not. And that's where I think he's trying to draw that difference between what he is aiming to do when he gets home, which is to clear house. And a lot of my students have trouble with the slaughter of the suitors, and they ask that same question, like, how does this make him any different than any of the other barbarians that he has encountered? You know, what's so special about Odysseus that he can do this? And I think that the idea of the lex talionis is really important of, you know, understanding what the law of retribution is, is that it's an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. And he's doing it at the behest of the gods. He's clearing his house as a means of. He's carrying out justice, not revenge. He's carrying out justice that the gods have asked him to do. Because what the suitors have done is they violated the God's. And so he has to carry that out. And it's a. Does that mean that everything he does with Polyphemus, I mean, there's a lot of argument there over whether or not he's just in his actions, but I think certainly the justice that he metes out against the suitors is more on behalf of the gods than it is even himself.
- [13:09]
Host
Yeah, we saw that too. Where he. Even when he's the beggar in his own home, he really has to wait for Athena and Zeus to give the go ahead, right? He, he's an agent of fate in a lot of ways. Athena being that wisdom and then Zeus. Well, Zeus is all things, but particularly in this context, I think there's a sensitivity to guest friendship. Right. And that Zeus has to give permission for you to actually kill your guest, right. That your guest is actually in violation, you know, because otherwise this would be an abhorrent violation of guest friendship. So. No, I, I think so as well. That I think Odysseus in a lot of ways is an agent of fate playing this out. But it is a difficult read. I think the first time I read it, the slaughter of the suitors, I think I was just relieved to finally get to it. I'm like, finally we're getting to this, right? What bothered me was the serving women. That was the one that I, the serving women and the goat herd, because it, I, and I still to a certain degree struggled to understand the brutality against the goatherd. And then secondly, the serving women, you know, how much, you know, how much do they deserve that fate? And then, and then even that Telemachus seems to exacerbate what Odysseus says, right? Odysseus, if I remember correctly, tells him to go out and basically, you know, cut them with a sword. And Telemachus kind of says, you know, you're too good for a clean death. And so they kind of get this slow hanging. Right? Yeah, that was the part actually the first time I read the slaughter in the house or slaughter in the hall, that was the part that I really had to kind of mow over a few times.
- [14:44]
Rachel Greb
Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about the value the ancient world place on loyalty and how that plays into the story. Because a dispute, loyal servant is, is a betrayal. And to keep the house and the, and the city pure, you need that, that loyalty. Otherwise you've, you know, you have open the door to give your enemy a foothold. And so I, I again, this is, you know, my 21st century gloss over that. But I, I think that that's a way to think about it.
- [15:28]
Host
No, I very much agree. I think that particularly looking at what makes civilization work, right, like it's like guest friendship, right? Guest friendship is a practice that makes civilization work, that you can actually travel and be hosted. And there's a vulnerability on both sides. And I think another aspect that we have to think about is that loyalty, right, to the house, that this is actually Going to work. Now, the nice thing is that the book that we need to discuss is actually much nicer, right?
- [15:53]
Rachel Greb
So lovely.
- [15:55]
Host
Much, much more charming. So let's look at book. Let's look at book 23. FAGL's entitles this the great rooted bed. So here, I mean, I. I smiled right when I started reading this, right? So here, because I just picture Ericlea, like, running, like, almost giggling, right? Faggles talks about her chuckling, which is kind of a funny word to use, right? But almost giggling all the way up to find Penelope to tell her, right, that that thing that you've dreamed of has come, right? Odysseus is home. And I don't think it surprises anyone that Penelope meets us with a certain level of, like, skepticism, right? That first, like, you're a clea, you know, you've gone mad, right? Like, what are you talking about? But what really caught my attention here is, you know, because one of the themes we've been tracking is how much does Penelope actually know? Like, how much does she actually know? And I, I've oscillated all over the place on this. And, you know, last, I think, or another book before last, one of the things that caught my attention is that when she tells everyone, like, oh, you know, the stranger should be able to use the bow, right? She mentions his physique. She mentions, like, oh, look, the beggar. Like, look how strong he is and whatever. And that was something I really wanted to know was has she noticed that this beggar is actually like, you know, very muscular? You know, because somewhat comically, we pointed out, you know, I'm assuming beggars were the same back there than they are now. I'm sure the beggars of Ithaca weren't all walking around, you know, as like, Olympian gods and jacked, right? Like there's. There's clearly something that they've noticed is different about this beggar and she's seen that. And I mentioned that background because one thing that caught my attention here and now, I have not read the Odyssey 23 times. But I'm just throwing out my. Here's my theory, okay? Is that she meets this news with a certain level of skepticism. And then Euryclus tells her explicitly that it's the stranger. It was the beggar. That's Odysseus. And it's at that news that Penelope's heart burst in joy, right? And she leaps from the bed, her eyes streaming in tears, and she hugs the old nurse in a certain way. It's interesting to me that it's the news that it's the beggar that actually makes her react so strongly. And I almost see this as her mask slipping a bit because she has a strong emotional reaction. And then very quickly, she tries to go back into the skepticism, right? The mask goes back up. Because then In FAGL's line 75 or so, you know, she says, odysseus, oh, no. You know, he's lost all hope of coming home. He's lost and gone himself. What are we to make of Penelope here?
- [18:35]
Rachel Greb
I think. I think the key to Penelope is that she has been. You know, the suitors have been pursuing her for a number of years now. She's been holding them off. She's very. Her. Her epithet that. That Lattimore at least gives her is circumspect. And she is often pictured either in two. In two locations, either when she's anywhere other than her bedroom, when she's out in public, and that is by the pillar, so by their house, like the thing that is holding up their house, or she is pictured at the top of the stairs. And when she's. And often when she's by the suitor, she has a veil on. So I think she is. I think the key to understanding her, like I said, is just knowing that she is the match for Odysseus. And everything that plays out in this book reveals that to us especially. There's. There's a. At a dialogue exchange while Telemachus is still with Penelope and Odysseus during the reunion. It's this really awkward conversation that the three of them are having where you're, you know, they're kind of talking around each other while the other person is in the room. And it's. It's sort of going all three ways that way. It's very awkward. And during that. That exchange, there's a lot happening that indicates to us that she has suspected for a while that this is Odysseus, not just because of the bow, but of course because of his physique. And. And then also he's given her proofs already that he. That the stranger has known who Odysseus is, has actually known him in person because of the brooch that she gave him, that. That only he would be able to describe in great detail. And there's. There's a couple of phrases there. So I think this is kind of our first indication that. That there's more to come that's going to really show us so much of the depth of Penelope's character and how, again, how you know, Odysseus is. Is wily and wise and crafty, and she's the best match for him. She is, yeah.
- [20:53]
Host
Yeah. Faggles calls her the matchless queen of cunning.
- [20:57]
Rachel Greb
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
- [20:59]
Host
No, I think. And I think that's a good way to understand their love for each other, too, right? Is that. Is that cunningness, I guess, right? That cleverness that they both share. It's interesting, too, that Euryclaya, when she's kind of pushing back on Penelope, mentions the scar, right? The scar has been like this. This point of, like, epistemology of, like, listen, we know who it actually is. Like, he has the scar. And we've already kind of drawn out some parallels on the podcast between the role this scar plays and the role that the scars on our lord play with St. Thomas, right? Which I think would have been in the back of the mind of the Hellenized Jew and Greek hearing about this story, right. That he's known from his scars. So it's interesting that Eurycleia offers the scar, which for everyone else has been. That's it, right? He has the scar. It's Odysseus. And Penelope just kind of, like, takes this in stride. And, you know, her heart, though, is kind of, you know, oscillating, right?
- [21:53]
Rachel Greb
It's.
- [21:53]
Host
It's going back and forth. And she, if I remember right, yeah, she's even debating internally in her heart, right? What should she do, right? Should she keep her distance and probe him? Should she rush up and kiss him? So we're already kind of hearing that. Like, she basically either already knows this is him or she has a. I think one way that we've kind of talked about it is she has these inclinations, but her heart is emotionally guarded, right? So she might be inclined to believe something, but I think that cunningness and that intelligence is keeping her heart until there's more proof, if you will. Right? And so she comes in and I think this is. This kind of what you were describing. This is a fascinating scene. Oh, yeah, because they're all in the same room, right? So here's Penelope, Odysseus and Telemachus. And if I read this correctly, Penelope basically comes in and there's a silence. She says nothing. She sits down in the firelight and just faces Odysseus. And Odysseus is staring at the floor, seeing how his wife will react. And she's. Faggles talks about her studying his face in numbing wonder, right? Trying to discern whether or not that's actually him. And Telemachus which I think this kind of goes to that coming of age story, you know, like he's very much the boy in this scene, right? Just like, mom, what, what are you doing?
- [23:17]
Rachel Greb
Like, what's the deal? Yeah, yeah, what's the deal?
- [23:19]
Host
Like, what are you doing? Right. And it's interesting that Penelope then you know, basically says, you know, that she has to test him, right? We have secret signs and Odysseus kind of, I mean the way I read this is like he gives into this. He understands that this is like a rational thing to do, right? That he has to be tested to a certain degree. But it's just a fascinating scene, I think, to kind of picture all three of them in the same room. And what you have then, because what you expect, I think a first time reader expects a grand, you know, kind of reunion, right? That they're all three going to grab each other and embrace and cry. But what you get is silence, right? This kind of probing.
- [24:01]
Rachel Greb
Yeah, yeah. Well, and part of that I think that they, she knows that she needs certain proofs and she has to give certain proofs as well. And I think that, that her, if she were to just rush in and embrace Odysseus, I think that would be off putting to Odysseus because that's not the Penelope that he knows. The Penelope he knows is the Penelope who matches him in wits and cunning. And this isn't what he's done in his other reunions to this point. He led along the pig herder. He leads, you know, he doesn't rush in right away when Telemachus first comes home. And so if Penelope were just to, you know, embrace him, weeping, he would be like, you know, that's interesting because that's not what I was expecting from her. But Latimore uses a couple of. And during this exchange a couple of phrases where when Telemachus is kind of chastising her and he says no other woman would sit there like you are and just look at him. And that no other woman is. This is the way that only Penelope would do this. And it's her proof to Odysseus that she has been the faithful wife that he has waited for. And then a little bit later we, we see the phrase of Telemachus talking to his father and saying, no other man would do what you're doing either. And that, that no other woman, no other man is sort of their proofs to each other that of course only they would know how this was, this would look. And this is sort of what separates Any possible imposters from this reunion that, you know, it's not just a simple love reunion of a husband and wife. After many years, there are massive implications if this goes wrong, the city state of Ithaca goes south and all kinds of terrible things could happen. And so there's a lot more than just being happy to be with each other. There are royal implications into bad things happening. So they have to have this sort of like no other person would actually do this. And this is how I know it's you, because only you would be the kind of person that would actually stand off a little bit and wait for me to give a certain proof. Right, yeah. And then. And then this. This horribly awkward moment for Telemachus when they're like, you know, actually, if you could just go away now. Yeah.
- [26:54]
Host
Well, it's interesting a few things on, on your points which I think are very, very good. You One, when Penelope answers that there's secret signs between them, it's not just Odysseus accepting this of like, oh, yeah, I have to be tested. He smiles.
- [27:09]
Rachel Greb
Yes.
- [27:09]
Host
Oh, I love that he knows that he smiles. And I think that, as you pointed out, they're. Both of them have these kind of background narratives going on in their head. So one for Odysseus, I think still very much is the Agamemnon narrative.
- [27:24]
Rachel Greb
Absolutely.
- [27:25]
Host
And so I think that there's. Which has been animating him since he got home. Right. Which is he comes into disguise, he's testing people, etc. And so this is kind of the final test. And the kind of dance I think that he's doing with his wife is that Agamemnon narrative is still kind of haunting this Penelope. We find out a little later in the book that what's haunting her in the. In the back of her mind is that there would be an imposter Odysseus. Right. That there would be someone that was this imposter. And even that imposter could be a God, like, so she has to test him to really. And you know, luckily the Olympian gods are not omniscient. Right. They. They have to be and know things, but that she has to kind of find an intimate secret between them that maybe even a God in disguise would not know. Right. And it's not even. It's not even really that clear when the test comes. I think that's one of the beautiful things about our test is that it's not clear that she's actually testing him when it occurs.
- [28:23]
Rachel Greb
I think that's. That's part of the reason why the scar is not enough for her. It has to be something only the two of them know that that really is the clincher because the scar is a story that's known about Odysseus from his childhood. It's a really. But a lot of guys have battle scars. And, you know, a lot of these men have been in a lot of different physical altercations where they could easily have almost an imposter scar or something similar. But this is the one thing that only the two of them know. And when she asks for it to be put out, he doesn't have an answer for. If she questions him about the scar in his leg, he can give all kinds of credible reasons for having that, but not the bed. The bed is really the only thing that can answer that question for her. Finally, about his identification.
- [29:27]
Host
It is. Yeah, let's look at that narrative with the bed. So as you said, which I think was kind of funny, is that there's this kind of tension, this thick silence between Penelope and Odysseus. And Odysseus basically turns to Telemachus and is like, okay, well, by the way, you need to go do something now. We need to be worried about that. The suitors are going to have avengers, and we got to figure that out. And so then Odysseus is bathed, which.
- [29:52]
Rachel Greb
Is a really important part too. The bathing and coming out of the bath has this baptism and resurrection sort of symbolism to it that really lends itself well to the big reveal of Odysseus, I think so. Just wanted to make a quick note on that.
- [30:15]
Host
No, I like that. One thing that I thought was interesting is that my whole assumption moving through this is that his beggar disguise has been divine. Right. Because it says that Athena put him in this outfit. But then as we see his reveal, what I anticipated, like the first time I read that is that at some point then Athena is going to come down and like, you know, make him look like King Odysseus and do all the things. We simply make him taller to the eyes and massive build and all the things that typically happen when Athena does this, but we don't really have that. Like, the beggar disguise seems to go away very naturally, right? So he. He pulls away some of his rags, and that's like, when he starts to fight the suitors, he pulls away some of his rags, but then we realize is he just had more rags on underneath it. Right. He doesn't actually look like King Odysseus. And then Athena doesn't come in and and change this. He actually goes through a natural process, this bath. And so that was one thing I noticed too, because I. I was expecting some kind of supernatural reveal via Athena. And what we get is a much more natural reveal through the bathing. So then we have. I love Penelope's response to this because, you know, the whole setup is that he's bathed now and he's gonna figure out where to sleep. And I love that her in Fagles, she opens up her thing. Strange man, right. So even now that he clearly probably looks like her husband. Right? Clearly he looks like her husband. She still kind of. I read this as her just kind of like digging it in, right? Like you, strange man. Right. Like, who are you? It's hard not to see these words with a certain thickness that, you know, a husband and wife that are both so intelligent would have, right. That they're kind of playing off each other. And so he says strange man. And then, yeah, this is where the test comes, right. Eurycleia moved the sturdy bedstead out of her bridal chamber, the room that the master built with his own hands. And what do we think of Odysseus response here? Because Odysseus, there's two things. So the factual response is that he knows that what she just said is impossible. If I understand how this works, is that basically when he's building their bedroom, there's an olive tree in the middle of it. So as then he builds this bedroom around the olive tree. The olive tree then is eventually cut down and the stump that's still rooted in the ground becomes then a part of the bed. And so you can't move the bed out, right? The marital bed, which there's probably a lot of symbolism here, right? Is literally rooted into the chamber and it cannot be moved. And so he knows this, and I think there's a lot of symbolism here. But then also like Homer says that it put him in a fury, right? Woman, your words, they cut me to the core. And I really wondered here how much of this is him actually having an emotional response and how much of this is him play acting? Like, is he really. Is he really falling into a fury here, like thinking that something's happened to the bed or like you can't do this or is this kind of play acting that he's realized what the test is and he's kind of coming over the top. It's so hard with, I think when Penelope and Odysseus interact to kind of tell, you know, if they're not playing a game, if that makes Sense, I think.
- [33:29]
Rachel Greb
So I kind of envision this whole scene with, like, this, like, little smirk on both their faces, you know, as their having this interaction. Because right before she calls him strange man, she has called him. He has called her strange woman. And he has said, again, no other woman would be doing this. And then when she asks him, when she gives your clay of the directions to move the bed out, and he. Yeah, he kind of. I think he's. I think he's tired, and I think he's, like, ready to have the, like, okay, we're like, all right, we're just done now. Okay, here's the thing. And he knows that this is the last test he has to pass. And he says, again, he uses the phrase, there is one particular feature in the bed's construction. I myself, no other man. And that's it. No other man made it. And that's what, you know, this is the last thing that he needs to say. And he gives a very specific description of the bed. Aside from claiming that he made it, and then he knows that it can't be moved. He also gives some really specific details about its construction and how he made it, you know, to the chalk line. And these are all details. We saw a lot of foreshadowing of this when he first arrives on the Fiakian Islands. And he is noticing a lot of things about how, I mean, you know, Alcinous and his wife Arete kind of give us this foreshadowing of what Penelope and Odysseus Reunion is going to be like. And he notices a lot of the same architectural features of their home that, you know, things just being, like, really clear to the chalk line. And he's like, ah, yes, these are the things that I recognize because this is how I would have built it had I been the king here. And then. And then here we see it again. So there's. There's a lot happening there. But, yeah, he. He gives this wonderful. This, you know, this wonderful description of how he made this bed. And she finally melts. She just melts. By time he's done. She just knows that there's no other question she can ask him that he can possibly prove himself. And I love what you said about the symbolism of the bed being unmovable. And it is really kind of the heart of the story of, you know, their relationship and. And how it just. It can't be moved. I mean, this is the thing that's. The immovable thing, which I was just gonna say, which. Which really speaks to the. To the Greeks because of Their idea of, of the true things being the, the immovable things, the permanent things that can't be moved. That's really how they understand the word alethea. Truth of, you know, truth with a big T are the, the permanent things that exist out there that can't. That are immovable. And, and so I think that, that all kind of, you know, is all resonating in the Greek reader's mind.
- [36:34]
Host
And how much of this, I mean, it just seems like on its face, there's a really clear analogy here that Homer's trying to make that like the, the bed rooted in the bridal chamber that cannot be moved is kind of the answer finally to the Agamemnon story.
- [36:48]
Rachel Greb
Yes, right.
- [36:49]
Host
That, that she cannot, this cannot be moved. Right. She wasn't moved by the suitors. Like, it just seems like there's a clear parallel here between the bed and what it represents. Right. And then like the temptations of Penelope since Odysseus has been gone.
- [37:03]
Rachel Greb
Right. Yeah, right. And we've seen that story of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra come up over and over and over and over again. And we keep, you know, thinking back to that. And it was in. When Odysseus was in the underworld. I mean, it's, you know, he, when he talks to Agamemnon. But even so, it's, it's when Telemachus is talking to Menelaus, Antonestor. I mean, all, all throughout we've seen this parallel, this juxtaposition between the two of them and that story being, you know, obviously just like the complete opposite. And this being the comedic answer, like that's the tragedy of, of a big part of what happened in the Iliad. But this being the comedic answer to that, that we are going to celebrate now in a complete restoration and renewal of all of the things that are good and true and beautiful about the life of Penelope and Odysseus and the way things should be. That sort of looking towards the future of well being and restoration for the community as a whole, not just for the two of them, but for all of Ithaca.
- [38:15]
Host
Yeah, I like how you keep bringing up that theme because I think that's something to keep in mind is that their relationship has a lot of effects on just the political order of Ithaca overall. Right. And in that reunion then is going to be a reunion that brings benefit to all of Ithaca as well. We got to deal with the avengers of the suitors and some things like this. But I mean, this is why I think the serving women Surround him. The swineherd and the cowherd have their reactions because it's not just him, right. The king has returned and the king brings order right with him. And Ithaca is going to kind of blossom under his rule, right?
- [38:52]
Rachel Greb
Yeah. That idea of the ordered community as reflected, you know, like as Aristotle says, the community is the soul writ large. So it really is the order of the community being well established by Odysseus that now, you know, his, his soul has been kind of correctly restored as well as Penelope, like all is right with the world and, and, and everybody can move forward happily because all of the, the bad things have gone away. It is interesting too, I think though, that, you know, when he, when he is hearing this, telling his story to the fiakians in book 11 and he, he gives them his sort of injunction from, from Tiresias about, here's what you're going to have to do. You're going to need to go out and carry your ore and to go to the, to the people, the unreached peoples of the world, right, who don't know about seafaring. And they're not even going to have like their, their food mixed with salt. And that's how you're going to know is that you've reached the people who don't know anything about seafaring because they will not recognize what you're carrying. They're going to think it's something, a farming implement, and that's where you're going to plant your. Or in the ground. And there is a. There is a moment in when he's doing this retell to the Fiakians that you think that he's just. He's playing them because they are going to be. They're seafaring, loving people. So as he's telling this to them, of course their hearts are going to be moved and they're going to be like, oh, yes, preach it, brother. Amen. You know, let's go talk to the unreached peoples of the world who don't know about seafaring. And so you kind of wonder if he's just making that up because Odysseus is known to make things up. But yet here at the end, he tells the same story to Penelope. And there is something to this duty that he has now. And I think what I love about this is that he's going to have this duty that's beyond himself. So yes, he is the king of Ithaca, and yet he has an obligation to something higher than himself that he must carry out and must do before his days are come to an end. And all of that, I think, is a really important part of understanding the story as a whole as well.
- [41:14]
Host
And I think that. I mean, one of the things that actually surprised me was that that's, like, the first thing he tells her.
- [41:20]
Rachel Greb
Right?
- [41:20]
Host
Right. Because you would think, like, that would be something like, okay, let's enjoy each other and just we have a reunion, et cetera. The fact I have to leave again. Can you just give it like a day or something and let things settle? But it's interesting, one, that he. That's the first thing he tells her, that I'm going to have to leave again. I got to go on this penitential journey. And two, how she handles it, right? She really takes it in stride and actually says, you know, hey, since you brought it up, why don't you tell me what this is? You kind of think that this would be, like, absolutely devastating to her, but he does. He tells her, you know, as you kind of mentioned, I think it's interesting that you connect those two stories, right, because the Phaeacians, too, are descendants of Poseidon on both sides, right? The king and the queen. And now he has this penitential journey to go, which is basically an appeasement of Poseidon, right? And then they go back and actually has to sacrifice to all the gods, right, in this kind of, like, overarching, kind of penitential narrative. So it's interesting, too, that those two can be connected, right, as he tells the story. But I. I do. It just surprises me that that's the first thing he mentions, that she handles it in stride. And then, you know, Homer makes it clear, right, that the marital bed, this whole theme, they go. They rejoice in each other, right? These long for joys, for love. And then he tells her his over kind of a brief narrative of his journey home. And what do you make of this? Because I am. I'm highly skeptical. After reading Homer for a year, anytime someone's going to give a summary of what happened, right? Because every time this happens, it's like a message has to be repeated or Iris comes down, or Hermes, whatever it is, something's changed, right? Something's added, something's omitted, etc. So when he starts getting into his overarching narrative of what's happened to him, I'm deeply skeptical that something's going on here, that he's either left something out or he's adding something. But, you know, to be honest with you, you know, nothing really stood out to me. Outside the fact that he actually tells her about the temptation of Calypso, right. It's not just stuck on the island, but he actually tells her that he was tempted, right, to become an immortal. What do you make of his kind of like retelling of his, of his journey?
- [43:38]
Rachel Greb
I think there is little that he. If he can't. Again, I think this, this comes back to the fact that these two know each other so well that it would be useless for him to attempt to hide anything from her. She would find it out, she would know, she would suspect. And I think, you know, that it doesn't benefit him to hide any of that from her. And it is a way of showing, you know, he is, he is the suffering returning king. He's not just, you know, and of course there's debate about this. Like, was he really suffering? I mean, come on, he was a Calypso, you know, I mean, so, you know, and even with Circe, it wasn't like he was actually. So they stayed at Circe's for a year after, after they made this big deal about, oh, we've got to make sure that we're focused on going home, and then they kind of hang out for a while and. And yet he's depicted to us as suffering and, and it is that sort of like long suffering idea. But again, I don't think would benefit him at this point to hide anything from her, particularly again, in light of the Agamemnon and Clytemnestra. So, I mean, Agamemnon comes home and has, you know, shows up with Cassandra and it's already just got to take. If it's going to go bad, just get it over with, you know, hey, honey, I'm home. And also my war prize. So there.
- [45:16]
Host
Well, and I think that, you know, for first time readers, we knew something was wrong because this is like book one of the Iliad where Agamemnon's talking about. Is it. It's not Briseis. No, it's Chryseis.
- [45:29]
Rachel Greb
Yeah, one of them.
- [45:30]
Host
It's crisis. Yeah, he's talking about her and he's like, why? You know, I love her more, you know, than my own wife and, like, build and breeding. And you're like, okay, this is a good introduction to Agamemnon. And then you find out later that he's already sacrificed his daughter for them to even get there. So, like, his home life, his family life is a bit rough and so it's slightly unsurprising that he's met the same way he is do you make any. So the Calypso narrative is interesting. In the Circe, he mentioned Cersei and Calypso. And you're absolutely correct. I mean, the Circe narrative, even the Circe narrative, he has to be reminded to go home, right? It's his men that actually try and call him back from madness. Some people here have noted that, you know, there's a third woman that was a temptation for him, which I think in certain ways represented, in my opinion, probably the most tempting that he had, which was the princess, right? Nausicaa. She's not mentioned here. Now, granted, he doesn't mention the king and queen by name either, Right. So I don't think it's like a giant omission. But it's interesting that she's not mentioned where Cersei and Calypso are, because I just. As we kind of work through that narrative on the podcast, like, there was a lot of us that held that she was the most tempting because Circe was never a temptation this day, right. He knew he's. He's not going to stay. Calypso was tempting, but the overall, the temptation to immortality was unnatural. And I think that Homer does a lot to show that, that it's unnatural to man. And there's something that's contrary to Odysseus nature for him to accept that. Nausicaa, however, in a lot of ways, she's a young Penelope. Right. She was incredible because that's the only time in the other book I've seen Odysseus interact with a woman that he has that level of kind of these intimate, witty conversations with. Right. And he's actually. And the king actually offers her to him. Right. He can stay. And so it's interesting that she's not mentioned. I don't know if it's, you know, I don't want to make anything dispositive of that, but it was curious to me when I read it this time and I think gave more attention to that narrative. I could not recall if he mentioned her to Penelope when he got home. And he doesn't. Should we make anything of this?
- [47:53]
Rachel Greb
I think her kind of role is to point to Penelope. She is sort of like the type and shadow of Penelope. And I think in many ways she does remind him of, oh, that, you know, this is what she was like when I left. And I think it's more of a. Of a. Of a way of stirring his heart towards Penelope than it is type of emotional response that he has for her than it is maybe as Personal or. That's always been my sense about his interaction with her. I think she would be willing, if he were able. If he conceded, to stay. But I think for him, it's more of a nostalgia type of thing and a way of him being reminded about the beautiful bride that he left many years ago. And it sort of is stirring in him, the way he remembered her. So I'm not sure. Yeah, I always get the sense that he. He holds her a little bit at an arm's length and is. And is, you know, happy to. To use the situation to his advantage, but I don't ever get the sense that he's, like, going to hop in the sack with her. Like, he's like he does with Cersei. He's like, well, time to jump in the bed. You know? So I think it's a little bit different. That's how I've always interpreted that part.
- [49:30]
Host
Yeah. No, that might be a slightly more charitable read of Odysseus than I give him, but I do agree it's a higher temptation, because I think it's a higher good. I think he sees in her not just an object of lust, kind of that. Just baseline satiation, but rather, this is really to have a new life. I'd be ingratiated into the lineage of a God. There's an irony that's Poseidon, but, you know, I get to live on this island that has technology, and it's basically utopia. I get to restart life with a younger version of the woman that I love. So, you know, some people make a deal of her being missing here. I'm not sure how much. I want to put a lot of weight on that, but I think it's worth kind of memory or reminding ourselves of what she was in the narrative. You know, I think that going by memory here, so I might have to correct myself later, is that. You know, I think that Nausicaa. Do you know who she ends up marrying? I think she actually ends up marrying Telemachus. Oh, I think Telemachus. I think that she actually ends up. I'll have to go back and check, but I remember when I was looking up her myth, when we were reading through those books, I was kind of looking to see this, where tradition took her. I'm pretty sure that she. In. In some of the stories, she ends up marrying Telemachus, which. There's a lot of beauty in that. Right. That, you know, that Telemachus then marries someone who also has that wit that's so indicative of his family.
- [50:57]
Rachel Greb
Right. Yeah. I'M not familiar with that legend, but that. But that seems like that would work really well and be a lovely ending. I was just going to say the other thought about her, though, is that. I wonder too, though, is that he is. So when he is with her and with her, I mean, her parents are the ones who have to give the okay for. For him to get transported home. They conveyance and, you know, they have their own prophecy about the man who will come to them, who will ask for conveyance. And it will. It'll bring them some. There's a price they're going to pay for that, and yet they're willing to do it. And I. But I wonder though, too, if that. Because he knows that once he convinces the Fiakians to give him that conveyance, that is the last step. It is the final. So it's so close and yet so far away. And I wonder if that's part of why the temptation of a Sika is not quite as palpable for him. I mean, there is this really lovely thing too, this. When they. When they do bring him to Ithaca and they kind of, you know, he's fallen asleep and they carry him onto shore and they put him. They pile up all of the things that. That. The gifts that they've given him, that they lay him under an olive tree. And so you sort of get this foreshadowing again of the bed that's coming a little bit later, obviously. But anyway, yeah, I don't know. That could be a little bit more.
- [52:37]
Host
It's interesting because in Fagles, if I remember correctly, when he crawls up on the beach after being his. His ship is destroyed. He's. He's crawling up on the beach and he barely makes it. Remember, he has to pray to, like, the river God to make it up there. In Fagles, it says he crawls under two olive trees, one tame and one wild. So it's interesting. I'd have to go back and give more thought about that pattern of olive trees throughout the text. That's a good highlight. So the book ends with, you know, they've had their. They told the story and the book ends with Athena coming down and influencing Odysseus. That what he needs to do is he needs to go see his father, right? He needs to go out to the country estate and see his father. And so he's going to call his son and then the swineherd and the cowherd out to go visit Laertes. So can you. Can we, like, what's our defense of Laertes, because I, I still sometimes question, like, where is he? Like, you're, you're the king, right? Or you're the previous king and Ithaca has been in chaos. But we kind of get these narratives that like Odysseus being gone has caused so much grief. Remember, like his mom dies of grief, which I think is kind of an ambiguous of what happened to her, but she, she dies of, of grief. And we kind of get this thing of like, then Laertes just can't handle it and he just goes off to tend to the trees out on the country estate. I mean, what do we make of, of Laertes?
- [54:11]
Rachel Greb
I think, you know, he obviously was not acting, the acting king when, prior to the war. So when Odysseus leaves, he's already has abdicated, you know, retired, whatever you want to say. And the, the, you know, after the war has come to an end and there's no Odysseus and there's no Odysseus and there's no Odysseus and they're hearing stories of other men coming home and then Anticlea dies, right? Of grief and, and, and he sees her in the underworld. I do think he's just a man consumed with grief and has kind of lost it a little bit and doesn't know how best to, how best to take control of things that have gotten really out of control. It really, I don't know that it actually falls to him as it does so much to Telemachus. Now being of age, should Telemachus be the one stepping up? I mean, that is the clear story right from the beginning when Athena walks in, when Athena first shows up as Mentor and Telemachus is actually sitting among the suitors. And then, you know, comes over and makes all the excuses and the apologies and she really chides on, you know, like, what are you doing sitting among these people that are ruining your father's household? So there's never a question, I think even with Athena that this, like, where is Laertes? Shouldn't he be doing this? That's not a question for Athena at all. This is a question for Telemachus of what are. Why aren't you doing stepping up into your role? I think the assumption is, is that Laertes has lived his life. He has his duty as king has already been abdicated. He doesn't. And again, things have gotten completely out of control. But that it's not his place even to step back in. It is truly Telemachus place. Then he's the one who is not fulfilling the role that he's supposed to.
- [56:20]
Host
And that goes into as well why Athena takes on Mentor. Right? Because we find out that Mentor was the one that was actually supposed to kind of be the steward and watching over Telemachus. And so we kind of get this implication that, you know, whatever kind of, you know, guidance into maturity that Timicus should have had in the absence of his father probably should have come from Mentor. And Mentor hasn't done it. So Athena kind of steps into that role, steps into a male role, right. To kind of be that, that father for him. It's true. I mean, I don't think the text, I absolutely agree with you. I don't think the text ever implicates Laertes for doing anything wrong. It's just kind of, it was surprising to me the first time I read the text that Odysseus, his father was alive because I was like, right, what are you doing? Like, go help Penelope, go do something. Like, you're not even in the house. Right. You're not even like out there like helping or giving support or doing whatever. You're just gardening. Anyway, that's probably not a fair read for him. But it was something I think that maybe particularly for a first time reader, it's worth challenging.
- [57:23]
Rachel Greb
Right, Right. Well, again, this comes to, back to kind of that story of the coming of age of Telemachus. And like when he does, when they finally call the assembly before he leaves to go on his little journey with Athena to see Nestor and Menelaus, it's significant that where Telemachus sits during that time, it says the hulf that was, that had been used for calling the meetings, the assembly had not been in use since Odysseus left. That's problematic. They have not been discussing all the things that rational people and civilized societies are supposed to discuss as men. And so it's significant that Telemachus actually sits in the seat of his father there. And that is the first time everybody's like, whoa, wait a minute, what does this young man think he's doing? This is the first time he's really claiming that authority. And that's why he's so, so bothersome to, to the suitors. And when they start to plot against him because he has taken this massive step by sitting in the seat of his father there that they weren't expecting because he hasn't done anything about it to this point. And now they know that they're, they're kind of like, they're, they're on watch now. I mean, you know, they. They've got a lot to. To think about if. If, you know, if they want to continue to run roughshod over the place.
- [58:43]
Host
Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, I've mentioned it before on the podcast, but as a. As a father of, you know, three boys and, you know, one on the way, I just love how much Telemachus steps into adulthood, into being a man. Right. He gains his thumas. Right. He gains that spiritual. Particularly when he knows his father's in the room right now. He's tried, right. He has these lines like, I'm holding the reins of power and a few other things even when his father wasn't around. Because I do think he has a proper kind of maturity in seeing Menelaus and Nestor. But when he knows his father's in the room, right. We get these lines that, like, you know, he can bear the suitors stoically and his eyes are riveted on his father. I think that, as you kind of mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, Telemachus coming of age story is a really beautiful part of this text. It gets overshadowed in a certain way, but it really is a beautiful text, I think, particularly for the father and son relationship.
- [59:48]
Rachel Greb
It really is. And there's just so much to it. I mean, the fact that we don't even meet Odysseus until book five, I think is an indicator that that's, you know, a big. That, you know, the Telemachy. The first four books are really important part of understanding the text as a whole. And I think it's one of the mistakes that we get into when we are so focused just on Odysseus, when we're, you know, teaching students. For example, if we kind of give them the storybook version where we only talk about the Odysseus narrative of his journey, we've missed a lot of the richness of, you know, the whole story. And we certainly don't get the story of Penelope and. And what an amazing character she is in an ancient text that, you know, she's. She's just incredible. She's. She's a really interesting person and so, so brilliant and such. Again, that match between the two of them is just phenomenal.
- [60:52]
Host
I agree. Any other kind of final thoughts on book 23 as we kind of enter the final stretch of our year of Homer? Anything that you think we missed?
- [61:02]
Rachel Greb
I can't think of anything off the top of my head. We covered a lot. I think, again, it's a fantastic. The dynamic between book 22 and the slaughter and then we have this emotional rollercoaster that Homer has taken us on. And there's, you know, there's a lot to be said for that. When we look at it, structurally, we get the. If we're, you know, the chiasmus of the entirety is his narrative in Hades, where he's in the depths of Hades when he's retelling his narrative. But the chiasmus of this particular book is the bed. When he, you know, kind of finally says, I can't move the bed. I made the bed. The bed's not moving. You know, it's sort of just the chiasmus of just this particular book and the whole interaction so much. There's so much comedy happening here, and there's just so much beauty and loveliness, and it just is really. I think it elevates the spirit of the whole book and does all the things that comedy is supposed to do to bring the audience, you know, kind of, like, back up after this really difficult scene that is kind of hard to process, and you're sort of a little bit in shock, and it sort of recenters us on. On what's happening. So, yeah, it's. It's just fantastic.
- [62:22]
Host
It really is. Well, Rachel, we appreciate it. We really appreciate you joining us for book 23 and kind of helping to guide us through the narrative, so thank you so much.
- [62:31]
Rachel Greb
You're welcome. It was a joy to be on with you. So, so nice to make your acquaintance, and I wish you the best with the podcast.
- [62:37]
Host
Yeah, thank you so much. All right, so next week, we will actually end our year of homer with book 24, and so we will see everyone next week. Thank you, everyone.