← Ascend - The Great Books Podcast
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Today on Ascend, the Great Books podcast, we are continuing our 12 week study of the Odyssey by discussing books 17 through 19, which contain some really beautiful, very famous scenes, including Odysseus's reunion with his dog. And also the first face to face meeting the dialogue between Odysseus the beggar and Penelope, which raises all kinds of questions about what does Penelope actually know? And so once again, we're joined by Dr. Frank Grabowski. It's a fantastic conversation. I am very much grateful to all of you for joining us. We've had over 3,000 people start the Odyssey with. So again, thank you so much. And also, just a brief word on what are we doing after the Odyssey. Schedule still being solidified, but we're going to jump back into Plato. We're going to read some of his forgotten dialogues, one each week. They're short, they're strange, they're very much worth your time. We'll read the Hipparchus and then Lovers and then Hippeus Minor and then Ion. So you have that to look forward to after we finish the Odyssey, then we'll have some short stories that we'll read and then we jump into Plato's Republic, the most important text in all of Western philosophy. So very much worth your time and attention. We're going to plan to do a slow read. We've already recorded over 20 episodes, probably going to land somewhere around 30. It's going to be fantastic. We look forward to reading that with you. But today join us as we turn back to Homer the philosopher and the wisdom that he has to offer us in books 17 through 19 of the Odyssey. And as we have every week, let's have recourse to our guide. We have a hundred question guide, over 100 questions on the Odyssey, and the very first question of every book is just summarizing the text. So what happens in book 17? Telemachus returns home and presents himself to his mother and tells of his journey to Pylos and Sparta and how Menelaus told him that Odysseus was being held captive on the island of Calypso. The prophet Theocomnus declares that Odysseus is already on Ithaca. Meanwhile, the swineherd and Odysseus, in the guise of a beggar, start to make their way to the palace and are mocked by the goatherd Melanthius. As they approach the palace, Odysseus sees the dog he trained as a puppy, Argos, infested with ticks, half dead from neglect, laying on a pile of dung. Argos recognizes his master and Odysseus hides his tears. As Odysseus enters his home, the dark shadow of death closed down on Argos eyes Odysseus as the beggar tests the suitors by asking each one for a scrap to eat. The suitor Antinous mocks him and throws a stool at Odysseus. Odysseus is unstaggered by the blow, silent, his mind churning with thoughts of bloody work. The book ends with Penelope inviting Odysseus the beggar to come and tell her his story face to face. Now what happens? In book 18, another beggar, a man named Iris, arrives at Odysseus palace and begins to harass Odysseus the beggar in disguise, Antinous or Antinous. The suitor, elects to host a battle between Odysseus the beggar and Iris. The winner will dine with the suitors and the loser will be cast out. Odysseus sound would be beggar king and is rewarded with a meal from the suitors. Penelope comes forth, blessed by Athena and the suitors knees went slack, their hearts dissolved in lust. The suitors bring Penelope gifts and Odysseus sees his wife's actions for what they are a plot to lure gifts from the suitors. The suitor Eurymachus offers Odysseus the beggar work, but Odysseus response causes him to throw a stool at him. The book ends with Amphimenus calling for peace and leading the suitors in a libation to the gods. And finally, what does Homer the philosopher offer us in book 19 where the suitors retired for the evening to their own houses. Odysseus and Telemachus clear the hall of weapons as Athena carries a golden lamp to light their way. Odysseus is harassed by the maidservant Melantho, and Melantho is warned by both Odysseus the beggar and Penelope that judgment is coming. Odysseus sits down with Penelope and the two begin to trade carefully crafted responses. Odysseus, still disguised as a beggar, spins a falsehood for his wife about his history, which includes that he had met Odysseus. Penelope tests the beggar by asking about Odysseus clothing, which Odysseus is easily able to answer. Odysseus the beggar tells Penelope her husband is alive and returning soon. Penelope, skeptical of the claim, arranges for the old maid Eurycleia to wash Odysseus feet. Euryclea recognizes Odysseus due to his scar and we hear the story of how Odysseus received his name. Odysseus threatens the old servant, his old wet nurse into silence. The book ends with Odysseus interpreting a dream for Penelope. And Penelope tells Odysseus the beggar how she intends to test the suitor.
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Foreign.
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Welcome to Ascend the Great Books Podcast. My name is Deacon Harrison Garlick. I live in rural Oklahoma with my wife and five children, serve as the deacon at Holy Family Cathedral and as chancellor and general Counsel of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa. In my free time, I like to help people read the great books. And that's the purpose here of Ascend 30 Books podcast. To help you read the great books. We can be like a small group to you. So go check us out on X, YouTube, Facebook and Instagram and also Patreon. We appreciate all of our supporters, really appreciate them, actually. You guys are awesome. This kind of help us move this project forward. I can't say enough. Our supporters have access to written guides and also community chats. So go visit the Patreon and visit the greatbookspodcast.com we continue our 12 week study of the Odyssey prior to the new Christopher Nolan movie coming out, which I am not excited about. Oh, we record these ahead of time. So the trailer just came out and so I watched the trailer. It's so bad. It's so bad. But I deeply appreciate all of you. So apparently I have to go see it and we'll have an episode on it. We'll also have an episode talking with Patrick Dineen on his new book, which will be phenomenal, the American what An Ancient Story Reveals about Our Divided Souls. That's out July 21, 2026. But today we are discussing books 17 through 19 with our own mentor, Dr. Frank Grabowski, who joins us again. Third order Franciscan diaconate candidate, dean of faculty at Holy Family Classical School. All the great accolades. Dr. Grabowski, how are you doing?
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B
Doing great. It's always a delight to reread these great books in light of the conversations that you and I have had, Deacon. In light of conversations that my students and I have had. So, I mean these, these books are great for a reason. So yeah, I'm looking forward to jumping into 17 through 19 where Odysseus, still disguised as a beggar, is reunited with his wife.
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Yeah, we have this kind of like cascading like first. So we have him coming home. So he's come to Ithaca. Now he's going to come into his home and then he's going to be able to see his wife. And so, no, it's a beautiful series of books. The pace has slowed tremendously in the back half, but I think Homer gives us a lot to think about as he kind of particularly builds up anticipation for the slaughter of the suitors. So let's jump into book 17. Fagles entitles this stranger at the gates. So just, you know, one thing right off the bat, as you know, Telemachus is coming home to talk to his mother and tell of his journey. We have Odysseus as the beggar is going to come into the house as well. Just like one small thing on a rhetorical point that I very much appreciated is around. It's a little bit before line 40. It says, now, down from her chamber came discreet Penelope, looking for all the world, like Artemis or golden Aphrodite. I just want to highlight this because two things. One, she's coming out of the chamber of the house. And I think this is important, right? The chamber is this very intimate part of the home. The suitors are all out there trying to vie for her attention. I think that's something that we have to contemplate. But we've made a lot on this podcast that Homer is intentional. And one of the things that he does is he uses the comparison to the gods to teach you something. And then something that's small that caught my attention here is. I don't remember another time in which someone is referred to as like, two gods simultaneously. And you could not have two gods more disparate from one another. So we have Artemis, who's the virgin goddess, which you. Not even if you touch her, if you see her naked, you die a terrible death. And then we have Aphrodite, who's definitely not the virgin goddess, who we've already received, you know, a very long story about her adultery with Aries. And so I, as I contemplated this, like, why would Homer do this? I thought this really fascinating, that this is what she is really, to the suitors, that they're lusting after her. They want her. They want her like Aphrodite, but she is actually like Artemis. She's actually the virgin goddess that if you touch her, right, if you desire her, you're going to die anyway. It's a. It's a subtle piece of rhetoric, but it's one that I. I very much appreciated, because Homer's going to do it again in one of the later books, even when Odysseus is in the room and there, I think it actually has more weight.
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B
I like that she can you're right, because a little bit later, I think it's in. Maybe it's in book 19. We'll get to it, where Athena showers this radiant beauty on Penelope and it drives the suitors mad. They become consumed with lust. But by also likening her to Artemis, I mean, Homer's clearly drawing our attention to her purity, to her resilience. Right. So physically, she surpasses all in terms of her lustrous beauty, but yet she remains faithful and pure. So it is a brilliant juxtaposition that Homer's just given us.
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A
I want to jump ahead a little bit. Happy to go back if you want, on anything. But around 170, I'm still kind of tracking, like, what is the role of Theoclymenus? Like, what is the role of this prophet? He came out of nowhere. We know that he murdered someone. We didn't get, really, a whole lot of backstory on that. We had this scene of guest friendship between him and Telemachus coming onto the ship. And so I'm kind of. I'm very interested in his role in the narrative. So here he gives basically a prophecy. He says, I swear by Zeus, the first of all the gods, by this table of hospitality here, my host, by Odysseus, hearth where I have come for help. I swear, Odysseus is on native soil here and now, poised or on the prowl, learning of these rank crimes. He's sowing seeds of ruin for all you suitors. So now we have. This is interesting, right, Because Penelope hears this, so now she's getting this prophecy that Odysseus is actually amongst them. And there's two things that I think are very interesting here. One, again, we see that Zinnia is not only a standard of civilization, a standard by which you can judge people, but also the table itself or the hearth is something that you can actually swear an oath by, Right? This is something that's sacred to Zeus. This is something that shows that civilization is here. It's something that. Which I think you pointed out, which very good, encapsulates all three levels of piety. You can actually swear by it. And two, that Penelope's hearing this. And this is going to go into a big theme for today, which is, what does Penelope know or what does she suspect? And so I just want to flag here that she is being told by the prophet that Odysseus is here somewhere. He's lurking about, trying to figure out what's going on in Ithaca.
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Yeah, Theoclytus. I mean, I think this might even bring us back to a point that was made in a previous conversation we had about how Homer in the Odyssey makes central. These characters that we wouldn't ordinarily think of as being like your standard Homeric heroes. I mean, even the dogs. Right. Just to go a little bit earlier, around line 65, Homer writes, Telemachus strode on through the hall and out, and a pack of sleek hounds went trotting at his heels. There were also the dogs of Eumaeus. And later we'll encounter Odysseus's rather aged dog, Argos. And so I think. So we get dogs that are being given starring roles. There's Theoclymenus, there's Eumaeus, and even a bit later, Odysseus says something about beggars, if beggars have their gods and furies too. And so these. These. The people that would typically be on the margins of society are really being given starring roles. And I think especially by drawing attention to dogs, I think Homer is doing something here that would allow us to contrast even the dogs, these faithful, loyal dogs, with the unfaithful suitors. So the suitors are even beneath these dogs that are guarding Eumaeus's flocks that are faithful to Telemachus. So. So, yeah, I mean, he's doing some really interesting things here, setting up these contrasts.
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I really like the focus on loyalty. I think that's a. It's a standard by which we can judge some of the things that are going to happen in the next couple books. I really appreciate you pulling that out and also pulling out that it is connected to the dogs themselves that have been playing this role because. Yeah, when we get to Argos, I think it's a good way to read him. Speaking of loyalty, can we. Can we jump to the goatherd, Melanthius? Melanthius? Is that how he pronounced his name?
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Yeah, yeah. Melanthius. Again, a stark contrast with Eumaeus.
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Right, yeah. So, again, I'm really interested in Homer, like, introducing characters this late into the narrative. And so I agree with you. It seems like, you know, if we ask why. What is the pedagogical purpose of this character? Why has he come into the narrative? He seems very much to be the contrary to Eumaeus. So we have the very loyal swineherd that knows all of his master's belongings. He's just has this undying loyalty to him. And now we have the goat herd, which, if you had, you know, he mocks Odysseus as the beggar. And if you had Any kind of suspicion about, well, where is he in his loyalty? Homer actually ends that passage at 281 with slipping in. He took his seat amongst the suitors, right? So the goatherd has, has, you know, picked a side. But one thing I, I guess one thing to push it further that I, that I appreciated more on this read because my first read was, okay, he's comparison to Eumaeus, etc. But one thing I would like to point out is at 260, when the goatherd is basically mocking and berating Odysseus the beggar, Odysseus is able to keep himself composed. And he says, Homer says he steeled himself instead, his mind in full control. And what I liked about this, and you pointed this out to me, and I very much have appreciated it, is he's learning here from his experience with Broadsea and with the Phaeacians, if you remember. So when Broadsea was able to, you know, goad him, Odysseus lost his composure and he slipped and he mentioned Troy. So here Odysseus has learned, we could say, has there been a maturation here, that those times prior to Ithaca, his journey home was actually a time for maturation for him, a time for him to grow. What would you say, even in his noetic and his thematic, to not allow these things to bother him. And here I think we get a great example of him being goaded, him being harassed, and he keeps that composure and keeps within the guise of the beggar and doesn't give himself away.
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B
In Homer absi. He was torn. Which shows us that there are the. And we've seen this throughout the. The Odyssey, where Odysseus is being faced with these choices, these very, very difficult choices. But as you, as you rightly point out here, it certainly seems as though he is reaching a point where his decisions, right, his choices are decisive. Like it isn't just wavering, but rather he's very much committed. And yeah, I mean, this is, this is all the result of the suffering that he's had to endure up to this point.
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I think that's a different way to look at it. Whereas, you know, a lot of times we look at his time away from home as simply a punishment, whether for what happened, you know, at the sacking of Troy or whether it was actually with Polyphemus. Like it's basically just a punishment, it's a curse. But I think this read is really interesting to show that, no, it's actually a preparation that he would not have been able to Take Ithaca the way it should be taken if he hadn't had to undergo these trials. And I think that's a very different way of looking at his journey home
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and patience and humility too. I think that when we read for instance, the Iliad, the characteristics of Achilles is very much. He is just a force of nature. I mean, Diomedes, he's a force of nature. These are men who again, they are very decisive, but they're almost entirely just a big ball of Thumas. Whereas here I think because of the suffering, because of the trials, Odysseus has learned in a way his place in the cosmos. I really think that because he is now befriending these lowly farmers, these, you know, pig herders and sheep herders and prophets who have murdered people. And so, I mean, he's become not just a king, but he's become this kind of everyman.
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And you can see too why people put forward a theory that Homer is maturing the heroic, that what it means to be a hero is developing. In the Iliad we had this contrast between Achilles and Hector, I think that pushed forward the question of the heroic by comparing kind of the unbridled raw thematic with the pious. Here though, we're getting a hero where Odysseus I think is very much compared to Odysseus himself. But we're getting a hero that has to bring in the noetic, it has to be very clever noose the mind and you know, has mastered or, you know, mimics Athena in a certain way. So I, I really like that read because I think it is something very distinct than what we see in the Iliad. Can we talk about Argos?
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But of course, I would love to
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talk about, I mean, probably, I think this was, I mean, the first time I read the Odyssey, this was just an absolute gut punch. I mean, just gut wrenching. So, I mean, just in short here, so this is line a little bit before 3, 20. So we have Argos, his long enduring dog, which is certainly true if you keep in mind how long he's been away. 20 years. So long enduring Odysseus dog. He trained as a puppy once, but little joy, he got Sue. All too soon he shipped to sacred Troy. So what ends up happening? This is Odysseus about to cut. So the context here is very important. He's about to step into his home for the first time. So he's been on Ithaca and now Odysseus the king is about to return home, but he returns home in disguise. And before he steps through the threshold of his home, he sees Argos, this dog. And what's so tragic about this, right, is he says, but now with his master gone, he lay there, cast away on piles of dung from mules and cattle, heaps collecting out before the gates till Odysseus serving men could cart it off to manure. The king's estates infested with ticks, half dead from neglect, he lay the hound, old Argos. Now, here's what's really fascinating, and you already alluded to this, that Argos immediately recognizes Odysseus. It says, but the moment he sensed Odysseus standing by, he thumped his tail nuzzling low and his ears dropped. Though he had no strength to drag himself an inch toward his master, Odysseus glanced to the side and flicked away a tear.
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Lovely.
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Yeah, it's a beautiful scene. Tragic, but beautiful. But one of the things that really continuing on this theme is that this is another test that Odysseus has been prepared for. So notice that just like with the goatherd, he was just tempted. I know what you would say that in anger. And the thematic, right here's this lowly goatherd that is goading his king and Odysseus could crush him. But he has the reservation, the restraint to not act out here, though, he's not tempted by anger, he's tempted by sadness, by tragedy, right. To run to the dog, to comfort the dog in death. And he has to reserve himself and not show those emotions, even though he does, you know, allow this tear that he flicks away real fast. But he doesn't get to run to Argos and embrace him in death and has to basically, you know, ignore him. To me, in a lot of ways, this seems like another test scene.
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Oh, I think it is. And, and you know, there's the Greek virtue. One of the four cardinal virtues is temperance. And the Greek word is sophosune. That's a virtue that we don't typically encounter in the Homeric epics, temperance, but this is again, one of the virtues. And I would like, it would be interesting to kind of track how Odysseus cultivates these four cardinal virtues in his return home and how he then utilizes them in the ultimate defeat of the suitors. But I think that for him to be successful, not just in returning, but in overcoming the suitors, temperance, knowing, knowing when to put the brakes on. As you say, this restraint or this reservation is essential.
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I think too, just kind of. How does this pull in different themes? One is that we get the dogs again, right? So here's a dog that is able to see through the disguise. And what's fascinating about that is again, this is not Odysseus just like went and rolled in the mud and put on tattering clothes. That's not what he did. This is a divine disguise given to him by Athena. But the dog can somehow sense through this. And I really like this what you said earlier when you tethered this concept to loyalty. And I think Argos here, just to throw out a thesis, kind of represents the undying loyalty, just an absolute loyalty to the king. And it seems like, I mean, one suspicion here is that that type of loyalty, that type of love for the king, immediately allows Argos to see who he truly is, right? He recognizes him. And you could push back, right, and say, well, Eumaeus has this undying loyalty, but he doesn't seem to see Odysseus. Well, I actually hold that in suspicion what Eumaeus actually can recognize. And I think too with humans you have to make distinction of what they suspect and what they will allow themselves to believe. Because I think Eumaeus sees more than he says. And we saw some hints of that in the dialogue in the hut. And I think with Penelope too, I think she suspects far more than she actually allows on. And so I'm curious too, like what how you would phrase this. But, you know, maybe there's a loyalty that allows people to see Odysseus, you know, as he is.
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B
We certainly don't want to anthropomorphize these dogs and impose any sort of sophisticated psychology or soul to these animals. But I mean, there does seem to be a sense in which these animals, these dogs have a kind of purity in their sight where they can see through disguises. Now, whereas we, you know, despite our reason, despite our ability to reason discursively, we sometimes like get all tripped up and we overcomplicate things. But these dogs, because they are such, you know, simple creatures by comparison, have this uncanny ability just to cut through all the nonsense and the garbage and to really penetrate masks the way that we sometimes can't.
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And I think that a few more things to stress here. One, I really do think loyalty is going to be the standard. When he comes in and cleans house, when he comes in and punishes people, there's going to be things maybe that first time readers are like, wow, really? Loyalty. Loyalty is the absolute standard. Were you loyal to the king?
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Right?
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The king has returned home. Were you loyal in waiting for him? And I think Argos represents a few things here. He represents both undying loyalty, but also neglect that those who are also supposed to be loyal to the king are not doing what they're supposed to be doing. And I do want to point out here that I think it's Eumaeus who clarifies after 3:50, he says, and the heartless women tend him not at all. It's the maidservants that are supposed to be caring for Argos in his, you know, aged ways. And they're not. They're neglecting him to rot in this kind of flea infested manure. And I think that's important to note.
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B
Yeah, I mean, as we'll see too, and just even in a couple of pages, Odysseus really does give. So one of the questions that we have to raise here is just, you know, the suitors is their seat and fate sealed. Right, Right. We'll get to this. Right. Is their fate sealed? Is it a done deal or is Odysseus. Well, again, in a couple of pages, there's a wonderful moment where he tells this very sad story and he's, he's, he's inviting Antinous to show compassion. Right. So he is giving them all the rope they need to hang themselves. Right. Fate, divine will. So, I mean, I'll, I'll pause there because I know, Deacon, this is something that you're very passionate about and something that we keep talking, we talk about time and time and time again. But I think there is a great deal of evidence here to suggest that. No, I mean, the, the suitors could have, well, I mean, they could have relented, they could have left, they could have.
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Right.
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Made their, their mea culpas, and yet they don't.
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Yeah. The question of when is the fate of the suitors locked in? When is it? And we'll see this, I think after this point, we see very clearly that even when a suitor starts to waver, when a suitor starts to repent, starts to think maybe this is bad, Athena not only comes in and moves them back to their error, but sometimes has them act even worse. And so you have to ask yourself, was there ever a time that the suitor could have repented, that they could have had that metanoia and walked away. And my working theory is, is that it's right here that in the context of Argos being the sign of absolute loyalty, that was neglected. Right. He's this, this contradiction here. Absolute loyalty and neglect. Notice that how Homer juxtaposes this scene. So we Just got gut punched with Argos. And right after this, what happens with that? He entered the well constructed palace, strode through the halls and joined the proud suitors. But the dark shadow of death closed down on Argos's eyes the instant he saw Odysseus 20 years away. And I would, I would suppose, like, I would present the working thesis is that this is when the suitor's fate is locked in, that the death of Argos, that shadow of death, when Odysseus enters the home, when he couples those two scenes, Death has entered the house, death has entered to the suitors, and now there's no going back. And I think that Argos is really supposed to represent a certain microcosm or an icon of what has happened to Ithaca. And now, now we're just at the point of fixing it. Now we're just at the point of justice.
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B
I like that.
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A
And I think we get an example of this if you jump to 390. Athena tells Odysseus, she says, and now Athena came to the side of Laertes royal son and urged him, go now, gather crusts from all the suitors, test them so we can tell the innocent from the guilty. Okay, so then you'd think, okay, great, so they're all going to be tested according to who's innocent, who's guilty, according to who treats the beggar. Well, we have to talk about the fact that all of this is another test of guest friendship. That guest friendship animates this whole scene. But look at the next line. But not even so would Athena save one man from death. So Odysseus is being told, go test the suitors to tell the guilty from the innocent. But Athena has already ruled they're all guilty and no one's going to escape from the hellhole that's coming.
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B
Yeah. Now there is an interesting comment that I like to make about that because when I check the Greek, it's actually ambiguous. Athena's name is never mentioned. And so I read other translations that rendered that line along the lines of not even so would he save one man from death. But to support Thagal's translation choice, here is later in book 18, when there's this exchange between Odysseus and Amphinomis. There Homer writes, even then Athena had bound him, namely Amphinomis, fast to death. So we return to this question about, you know, is Athena or are the gods in general locking in the fate of these suitors? And to what extent do they really have a choice in the matter?
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A
And just to push into that. I appreciate you clarifying that. Just to push into this too, just think about the context of guest friendship, this zinnia. So we actually have the actual owner of the home, the king, come in under the guise of a beggar, asking for guest friendship, for hospitality by the people who are consuming his home. And then what do we get? And you've already kind of foreshadowed this. We have Antinous, right, the old anti intellect who he goes and tests. And Antinous fails in flying colors. But Antinous narratives, his speech is just saturated with irony in which he critiques the beggar of, you know, eating up house and home and all these things. I mean, all of his critiques against the beggar are applicable to him as well. Which then ends in this zenith of Antinous throwing a stool at the beggar that's around line, what is that? 5, 10. So it says with that he seized the stool and hurled it square in the back at. Struck Odysseus just under the right shoulder. But he stood up against it, steady as a rock, unstaggered by Antinous blow, just shook his head silent, his mind churning with thoughts of bloody work. So two things. One, not only is it, I think another just horrific violation of guest friendship. So now you're abusing your, you're abusing your guest, but also you yourself are a guest and you don't even have the generosity to share that with others. It's not even really your things, right? You're abusing the home and you can't even share it with a beggar who you say if you shared it with them would be an abuse. And two, again, it's another test. And we see, just like with Broadsea, we see how well Odysseus handles this, that he can handle it stoically with his mind turning of death, but not slip, not give himself away in anger.
- [31:41]
B
Yeah. And I also would like to make two comments. One sort of a joke that for anyone who's listening, who likes pro wrestling as I do, this is often called a no sell where somebody gets body slammed or punched or pile driven and then they bounce right back up again with, without showing any signs, you know, of being worse for wear. So, yeah, so Odysseus no sells the chair shot. But at the very end of that paragraph, I love this line here. And this is Odysseus speaking, He says, well, Antinous struck me all because of my good for nothing belly, that curse that makes such pain for us poor men. And that's interesting, but I really like this last Line, he says, but if beggars have their gods and furies too, let Antinous meet his death before he meets his bride. And I love this point that Odysseus here is making, that human rank really doesn't exempt one from moral accountability, that divine justice applies to everyone equally, whether you are king or whether you're a beggar. And so I, I think that this is, you know, Odysseus again coming to these realizations. He spent his life as a king. He became nothing, right. He became hollowed out on the island of Calypso. And on his way back, he's beginning to learn not only what it is or what it means to be king, but what it means to be human.
- [33:09]
A
Yeah, very good. And two, just kind of harping on that same theme. Notice that all the suitors, maybe not all the suitors, but a lot of them see that Antonous has violated guest friendship and see what he's done is wrong, but they're still not self reflective enough to like, leave the home or stop what they're doing. And again, that, that raises the question of like, would Athena even allow them at this point? Right. Have they, have they not even already kind of sealed their fates? And then we get, which is, I think we've all been looking for, right, is that now Penelope is interested in the beggar and she asks Eumaeus to bring the beggar to her. And I think it's fascinating because we get really excited. We're like, oh, finally they're going to have the reunion. What's going to happen? Will she see him? And then the next book we have this complete interlude of a beggar fight. But before which I, you know, the first time you read it, you're like, what is this? Why, why are we going through this? But any, any kind of last thoughts on this book or on Penelope's calling of the beggar?
- [34:10]
B
No, I mean, Homer's just so good at building this tension, right. That Odysseus is returned. The suitors don't recognize him for who he is then. Now, as we approach the, you know, the, the reunion between Penelope and Odysseus, is there any sense that Penelope knows? And actually, when we get there, I do think that there might be one clue that Homer inserts at least to give readers the sense that maybe she does. So. No, no. No other thoughts in 17. So, yeah, we can, we can move forward.
- [34:50]
A
Yeah, I just have, I have maybe two preliminaries not to like completely ferret out, but just maybe for people to think about as we move through this one is that we've made the claim several times that the Odyssey is like the City at Peace from Achilles Shield, yet we're about to have a massive amount of violence. And I think that's important to understand that. What we need to see and what I think we're going to try and ferret out here is Odysseus acting according to justice. And what is justice in this context? Because the City at Peace is not a city without conflict. It's simply a city that can actually handle problems. So if you remember on the Shield of Achilles, the City of Peace is characterized by a marriage and by a court scene. And the court scene presupposes conflict, but there's a way to resolve the conflict, so peace is reestablished. And so I think that's something for us to think about in these later books is how is peace going to be reestablished in the house? And how is it that we discern that these actions are just. For instance, we saw with Troy that it could be just for Troy to fall, but then you can do what is just in an unjust manner, which is arguably what the Achaians did at Troy. They went too far. The other thing, too, just to throw out, another thing for us to track here is that I actually think there are really strong parallels between Odysseus coming home and discovering the suitors in the Cyclops coming home and discovering Odysseus, I think Homer very subtly compares these two very clearly, and we'll see later on some comparisons as we move into the death of the suitors. But just as the Cyclops came and saw Odysseus arguably in the wrong, wanting to rob the host, wanting to extend his stay, to take guest friendships, to take gifts and abuse. Right. If you read that as an abuse of guest friendship, of what Odysseus did in the Cyclops cave, and then the Cyclops consumes his guests. Right. I think you see something very similar with Odysseus coming home, that he comes home, he sees these violators in a certain way, he's going to consume them. And I think that Homer later on will give us some similes to see how he's comparing those two. But as we're trying to ferret out Odysseus's coming home and the fate of the suitors, I think those are two parallels to keep in mind. How does this reflect the City of Peace, and how does this reflect the Cyclops narrative?
- [37:17]
B
Adverb. Gunch Friedegan, just a quick one. Do you think that when we talk about Odysseus learning all these experiences are providing here, providing, providing him with the knowledge that will allow him to overcome the suitors. But, but is he growing also in kind of moral self awareness that he's looking back at the things that he did to, you know, on his way home and, you know, maybe he's having regrets or at least maybe he is recognizing that he did not handle himself in the best way. I mean, the Cyclops is a difficult case because the cyclops is the human being. But whenever he's telling these stories about himself, these, these fabricated histories or biographies, he doesn't really paint himself in a very favorable light. You know, he's out there raiding and he's, you know, he's, he's killing people unjustly. And I just wonder like, you know, in this particular, as you say, this parallel whether he's looking back maybe at the Cyclops cave in particular. But, but in all these other episodes that he's lived through. And I'm wondering if he is beginning to consider again, has he been the best man that he could be?
- [38:30]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. If I wanted to say yes to that, I think what I would push into is Odysseus's somewhat fanatic adherence to Athena during this coming home. What I mean by that is we're going to see that. Dad, when, when do I strike? Right. Telemachus is looking to his father. When do we take out the suitors? When do we do this? And what we're used to is, is Odysseus is very clever and Odysseus can figure these things out. He, he will, he will preserve. He'll get it all done. It's his noetic power that will get this done. And something that really struck me when I read the Odyssey the first time. I'm interested to see how I navigate it this time is Odysseus has a very fanatic adherence to. It has to be when Athena says so. It has, every step has to be when Athena tells me. And that's really interesting in that piety because in the past he seems to have very much trusted his own cleverness. And we even saw in the past there was a period of time there he found he felt abandoned by Athena. Right. When he first meets her again on the island of Ithaca, he hasn't seen her since, you know, his ships after Troy. He hasn't seen her even though she's been behind the scenes in these machinations working for him. So part of the thing there is like, well, now that he sees her so clearly and she's here, does he have this deep piety of adhering to the gods and it's only through them that this will actually work? And I think that makes sense to me because guest friendship really is overheld by Zeus. And if you're a host who thinks he can kill his own guest, that's a huge claim. Now I can actually kill the guest in my house because they're violating guest friendship. That seems that you have to have some type of divine ordinance to do that. And so, yeah, I would wonder there is, as he reflects on himself and his actions and also what got him into these things, like the Cyclops narrative, has he then established a certain level of like, piety or reliance of the gods to actually bring this all home, which is slightly different than what we've seen in the past. That. That would be where I would explore that.
- [40:33]
B
Yeah. And I would say in response, Deacon, this is very, this very topic would come up repeatedly in our classroom discussions at Holy Family that when thinking or when discussing Odysseus, so much attention is given to his cunningness. He's strategic, or his dishonesty, arguably, but I think sometimes overlooked is his piety. And so we tend to cast him in a very one dimensional light. And so who's the pious hero? Well, that's Aeneas, of course. Course. Right. And so we can't necessarily focus on Odysseus's piety, but I think that his devotion to not just the gods, but to one God in particular is something that is really quite remarkable. And as you say, I think it increases as the story goes on.
- [41:23]
A
Yeah. Discerning how he matures and how his journeys have affected him and prepared him for the retaking of Ithaca, I think is a very meritorious consideration. And helps you then read in retrospect, the taking of Ithaca, I think helps you read correctly the rest of the book, which again, in Homer and his brilliance and also telling the muse to start where she will is somewhat complicated because of the chronology of the Odyssey, but it just, it just gives it layers and depth. Okay, let's look at book 18, which faggles entitles the beggar king of Ithaca. So again, I mean, this was like the first time I read it, I'm like, man, I am ready for this meeting between Penelope and Odysseus. I mean, we have the man of twists and turns, the, you know, our queen of matchless cunning. And they're going to meet and we get a beggar fight, we get Iris again, we're Introduced to a new character this late, who apparently is this big beggar. He's nicknamed after Iris, the messenger goddess from the Iliad, which is a whole nother thing, by the way, that her cult and her role in mythology seems to completely drop out in the Odyssey. It's very interesting. It's completely taken over by Hermes, then by classical mythology. Hermes is the messenger God running everywhere. But in the Iliad, it's her, right, this rainbow Iris goddess. And so he's named after her, which I think is supposed to be comical. And Antinous, of course, comes up with this great idea that the two beggars can fight and the winner will be seated at the table with the suitors. Now, the per. The question here for me is, like, why? Like, why, Homer? Why. Why do we. Are we just. This is part of the feast and we're building up suspense and we just had to add something. I mean, just like, to scratch the surface. I mean, obviously this is another horrendous violation of guest friendship to have these two beggars that need to come and be welcomed as Zeus and in the home, given something right, have some kind of gratitude and gift. Instead, they are told to fight for it. I mean, it just strikes me as another horrendous violation of guest friendship. And again, arranged by the anti. Noose. By the anti. Intellect.
- [43:33]
B
Yeah, I think. So this fight allows Homer. So it's this device, the way I read it, it's a device that allows Homer to. To bring Odysseus back into contact with the suitors and to give them maybe perhaps another chance to say, to save themselves again. I don't want to jump too far ahead. Of course, there's this fight. Odysseus just wrecks him, just utterly wrecks him. And then he gets as his reward these fatty sausages. And then in addition, a couple of loaves of bread that Infinimus offers. So, yeah, we're jumping ahead a bit and certainly we can go back. But, but. But there's this. This passage in Phagos on page 380, which is truly one of my favorite passages in all the. In all the Odyssey, because in it, Odysseus, disguised as this beggar, engages in this very deep existential reflection. And I'll just quote a couple of lines. He says, you know, our lives, our mood and mind, as we pass across the earth turn as the days turn, as the father of men and gods makes each day dawn. I too seem destined to be a man of fortune. Ones in a wild, wicked swath. I cut indulge my lust for violence, staking all on my father and my brothers. Well, look at me now. And so I say, let no man ever be lawless all his life. Just take in peace what gifts the gods will send. So again, I can't help but think this is Odysseus looking at himself, perhaps the mistakes that he's made, and then offering this up to Amphinomis as an opportunity for Amphibious to say, you know what, you're right, I've acted the fool. I'm gone. But shortly thereafter, Homer tells us that not even he could escape his fate. Even then, Athena had bound him fast to death.
- [45:30]
A
Yeah, very well said. A few thoughts on that one. It's intriguing to me. I mean, maybe Beckers are different than they used to be, but this Becker comes into the house of Odysseus and he seems to be a philosopher, very well spoken and also he's incredibly muscular. So one of the things that, you know, we didn't mention is that during the fight, Athena actually makes him, you know, she bolsters him again. So here's this muscular warrior, esque beggar who speaks like a philosopher, who is coming to the house. And this seems to put no one, like, no one notices this. No one is asking questions. The other thing too I would mention here, I'll mention it because we are going to have to discuss the next book, is that no one notices his scar. Apparently he's walking around with this scar that if anyone would pay attention to, they would realize, oh my gosh, that's King Odysseus. Or at least maybe you have to be part of a more intimate circle to know that scar. We don't know. But no one seems to know. And no, and nor does Odysseus seem to be worried about people seeing it in this context, which I think is really fascinating.
- [46:37]
B
Yeah. So it brings up yet another theme or what's, what seems to be a theme that Homer's stressing, which is blindness, kind of, you know, where you might have sight, you know, you know, we often hear these, these. The poets. Right, the blind poet. The blind poet, despite not having Tiresias, not having the ability to see things with his physical senses, but yet he possesses this capacity to channel knowledge. So, yeah, here we have the dogs. They're able to see through disguises. They're not blind. But yet these, these suitors who should be able to, or they should be noticing things and, and picking up on these clues, and yet they're not.
- [47:20]
A
And I wonder too, is that because you could say oh, that's just. Athena doesn't allow them. You just have this deus ex machina explanation, like Athena just doesn't allow them to see it. But I, you know, obviously the Catholic in me wants to lean towards the fact that sin makes you blind. Sin makes you irrational and blind to your own actions and the actions around you. And that has the, this violation of guest friendship of the suitors simply just made them, you know, irrational.
- [47:48]
B
Exactly. I mean, I think even, you know, the Calvinists, Catholics would agree here that the noetic effects of sin, that sin, it not only impacts us morally, but it has an epistemological, you know, deleterious epistemological effect on us.
- [48:09]
A
I'm going to throw something out here and I only know enough just to be dangerous. So you might have to help me here. But there's also a really interesting comparison that he. The section you read around 161 or so. Look at me now. And so I say, let no man ever be lawless all his life. Just take in peace what gifts the gods will send. And he's speaking, he's directed this to Anthemus, but his name is a pun off of the law. Nomos. Right. It means like around the law or two sided.
- [48:42]
B
Yeah, it's like a round or double or two sided. Yes.
- [48:46]
A
So you know, we have to keep in mind that we have Antinous, this anti. Intellect, then we have Eurymachis, which is kind of this, you know, you know, broad battle, which I think that shows that the battle is more than just violence because Eurymachus brings in a strong rhetorical aspect which we'll see here pretty quick. Now we also have another one that's like two sided law. And Odysseus gives him this commentary, very existential commentary on lawlessness, and it seems to move this character. But then again, Athena has already bound him fast to death. He has no capacity, it seems like he has no capacity for repentance at this moment.
- [49:24]
B
Yeah. And so to support that, I noticed something interesting and maybe we can jump ahead, not too far. But we're on line 240 right there. Homer NARRATES the suitor's knees went slack. So this is all Athena has given Penelope the makeover. She's just gloriously, strikingly beautiful. Suitor's knees went slack. And I was curious to know the word that Phagos is translating as heart. So their hearts dissolved in lust. But what really struck me there is that Homer uses thumas in the singular, not in the plural. Now why would that Be important. Well, I don't think that they now all share the same, like, metaphysically speaking, the same Thumas, but perhaps in a way, metaphorically. Homer's point is that somehow they're all now in line. Like their spirit, they've. All right, you see what I'm saying? Like, they're. They're all kind of sharing the same mind. They're all sharing the same spirit. Not in reality, not literally, but more metaphorically. And so that kind of goes back to this question, you know, is there any hope or any chance for any of the suitors to. To save their skins? And the answer would be, well, no, because they're all sort of locked into that same disoriented mindset.
- [50:53]
A
I like that a lot. And just maybe to push us forward a little bit in that particular narrative. So, yeah, she comes out, she is looking beautiful because of Athena. And it's really interesting to me that around 300 she gives this commentary. One is, she says, oh, yeah, by the way, you know, Odysseus did tell me that if Telemachus starts to get a beard, then I can take a new husband. And so this is like her way of explaining why her actions are different. And so now she's like, okay, we need to move this forward. She also critiques them in their guest friendship, but they're not doing what's culturally normative. They're supposed to be bringing gifts. They're supposed to be wooing her, not sitting here devouring her house. And what I think is really fascinating here is that Odysseus is in the room. He's watching this because he won the battle. He's sitting there having his fat sausages or whatever, and he's watching his wife. And you might think, like, man, if I was sitting there in my house watching my wife walk out looking gorgeous, and then say, yep, it's time to remarry, everyone. Bring me gifts. That again, might. You know the thematic. I'm killing them all now. Like, I'm sorry, like, you're all dying. Notice how he responds. He sees this for what it is. This is down. Oh, a little bit before 3:20. Staunch. Odysseus glowed with joy to hear all this. His wife's trickery luring gifts from the suitors now, enchanting their hearts with suave, seductive words, but all the while with something else in mind. Okay, so here's the question. What else does she have in mind? And how does he know that? And I think this is where the next couple books you get all these questions of what is it that Penelope actually knows? She has seen this beggar in the house, a beggar that we all think anyone who's rational should be able to see. Something's different about this beggar. He's built like a warrior, he speaks like a king. Like, you know, is anyone going to notice what's going on? He apparently has a scar on him that anyone who notices that scar will see it's him. And all of a sudden now she has decided to trick the suitors. And so it really does start to bring into question what is it that she knows and why is she doing it at this point.
- [53:12]
B
I appreciate you bringing up these passages because I highlighted when you mentioned around line 310 where she's accusing the suitors of not being gentlemen. But it goes back to what we've been saying again and again, which is, well, what is it that makes for a stable society? What are the conditions that allow for a structured and stable polis? And it's simple things like this. Like it's simple things. It isn't like the wars that we fight, you know, the sort of the, the big events. It's the simple things. It's having domesticated animals, it's having farmers. Even a little bit later, Odysseus challenges Eurymachus to like having a farm off or, you know, he doesn't challenge him to a fight. He says, if only the two of us could go man to man in the labors of the field. I mean, so that's what it is. I mean, that, that, that, you know, when we talk about culture, we really have to begin with agriculture. And again, this is just for Homer, I think it's an opportunity for him to philosophize about, well, what is it that defines a healthy polis? And it isn't just military conquest, but rather it's the simple things.
- [54:30]
A
And I still wanted to say thank you because I think one of the things that you helped me understand better on this read through was Telemachus as an analog to Ithaca overall. And so when he goes to Pylos, when he goes to Sparta, yes, he's having to mature in his own kind of thematic, but at the same time he's also seeing stable polesis. And it really kind of caught my attention as I was kind of just reflecting on where we've been so far, that the first one, Pylos, starts with a sacrifice to the gods, this very grand sacrifice, and then Sparta starts with a double wedding feast. And so you have these things right, this sacrifice, ritual, religion, Marriage, et cetera, that really are only taking place in this healthy, organized and civil polis. And Telemachus is being exposed to this and then coming back. So, no, I think that read is very good and something I'm trying to be more sensitive to. And again, not to harp on this point, but the question here is why is Odysseus so confident in knowing what his wife is doing? And you know, there's a few things here you could say, what do they know already? But he doesn't know that she knows and that he doesn't seem to think that she knows unless he has a suspicion they haven't met yet. So he just seems to just know by default that she's this clever and this is what she would do. And that goes back to her whole theory of why is it that he loves Penelope? Why would he be willing to leave the immortal goddess Calypso on the island? And I think one of the reasons there that we mentioned was that she is wise, that she's clever, she's noetic like he is. Just like Athena loves Odysseus for his mind, so too does Odysseus love Penelope for hers. And I think this is a fantastic scene to show this out.
- [56:16]
B
Well, she's impressive. I mean, she's impressive in a way that again, strangely enough, the gods aren't. I mean, the gods are awesome, but, but they're not relatable in the way that humans are. And so, yeah, I think, you know, just to kind of briefly return to the point about Telemachus learning about the healthy Paulus. He, you know, he's lived in Ithaca where they haven't had any sort of council meeting for years and years and years. So in arriving at Pylos and seeing these sacrifices, I mean this to him is truly an education and how a healthy polis runs and how it's managed.
- [56:58]
A
Yeah, very good thoughts. Okay, two points. One, so on the same, on the same point of the Noetic at 2:80. So just jumping back a little bit when she came out, right? Their knees are unstrung. There's just some really wonderful idioms here for how beautiful she is. Notice that Yerimaka said, you surpass all women and build in beauty, which is a phrase we've seen many, many times. But then he says refined and steady mind. And I don't remember that before. I don't remember a female being praised for her mind and her cleverness. I think that is new, right? So it's both the, the beauty and the noetic. And I Think so. Then jumping forward, following Eurymachus. Then we get Eurymachus and Odysseus interacting. So we already had Odysseus and Antinous, now we get Odysseus and Eurymachus. And what's, I think just as a summary here, this is kind of like rhetorician versus rhetorician. They're both wearing masks, they're both wearing a disguise. Odysseus has come as the beggar. Eurymachus comes as a friend, right? He speaks these nice flowery words, he says these nice things. He. But we saw already, right, his mind churns with death, which is a very similar phrase, what we're seeing with Odysseus right now. But Odysseus shows himself to be the better rhetorician and also have the better composure. Because down at, I don't know, 440, Eurymachus loses his composure, he lets his mask slip and he, he becomes very angry, right? You, you odious. I'll make you pay for your ugly rant. Bold and brass effaceful, he loses his composure. And I think going back to this theme that we have of, you know, how has Odysseus travels, prepared him. The way Eurymachus reacts here is actually very analogous to how Odysseus reacted in the past when goaded. And now we see that Odysseus can goad and not lose his composure and make the mask slip on Eurymachus. And I think it's a wonderful scene.
- [58:55]
B
I mean we do see this occasionally in the Iliad where, I mean your, your listeners could go back and listen to some of the podcasts that you recorded regarding the, the Iliad. But, but there's often a lot of trash talking between the heroes before they go at each other. This is a little bit more subtle though. It's not so much trash talking as you say, but it's getting into Eurymachis head. And like once you know, anybody who's ever played a sport, it's engaging competition, knows that, you know, if you can beat or if you can cause your opponent to lose his composure, to lose his cool, that puts you at a great advantage because he's not going to be thinking clearly, he's not going to be handling himself in a composed way. And so it's, it like his strategy again isn't just to go in there and slaughter everyone, but it is to, yeah, it's to unsettle them first within their soul and then he can unstring their limbs, so to speak.
- [59:56]
A
And I Think maybe just to stack on top of that is that it's not necessarily that he couldn't do it physically, like he couldn't just go in and do it. The question is that he doesn't know who's loyal. So there has to be this test, right? That was the problem with Agamemnon, is that he didn't know who was loyal. So even if Agamemnon came in and had to clean his house, he's still going to die by Clytemnestra because he doesn't realize that she's a threat. So I think that's part of the waiting too, is not simply that, you know, he has to figure things out or how am I going to do this, or et cetera, but it's also who to kill, who has to be killed. Right. Who's loyal and who's not. Any other final comments or anything on that book?
- [60:36]
B
No, that's Sally, fourth to 19.
- [60:39]
A
Yeah. So we finally get Penelope and Odysseus. So this is book 19, they go and titles it Penelope and Her Guest. So this starts off, though, with kind of a very interesting thing with Telemachus. So remember, their original theory here is apparently this big hall is decorated and has lots of weapons in it. And so what they're going to do is they're going to take all the weapons down. And so then when they. It's time to strike, only they will have weapons. And so this is how the slaughter of the suitors will occur. And so if I read this correctly, it's at night and they're going to do this. And Telemachus, or actually it's the nurse, actually says, you know, should I fetch and carry a torch for you? And she's dismissed. No, we don't need this. And then down around line 35 or so, Odysseus and Telemachus then are doing this deed. And Athena strode before them, lifting a golden lamp that cast a dazzling radiance round about. What's so fascinating about this is that Telemachus cannot see her. He can only see her effect. He can't see her. He says, father, Telemachus suddenly burst out to Odysseus, oh, what a marvel. Fills my eyes. Look, look there. All the sides of the hall, handsome crossbeams, pinewood rafters, etc. Right? And even says, surely there's a God here. Quiet. Right? Odysseus can see her and the light, but Telemachus can only see the light. And I think that's just a really fascinating passage. And in certain Ways I find it to be analogous to the Odyssey as a whole. Here is Athena, who is the light for Odysseus and is lighting the whole path. So he can see in the darkness, he can get his purpose done, his telos.
- [62:27]
B
Right.
- [62:27]
A
What is his. I hesitate to say vocation, but what is his destiny, his fate? Right in this passage. And so here is Athena, the goddess of wisdom, lighting the way, but his more immature son, who's just now kind of being habituated. This. Can't see her, but he can see the effect.
- [62:44]
B
Yeah. And it gives Homer an opportunity to. To allow Odysseus to become a father to his son, to. To lead, to guide again, which is something that Calamchus, he's obviously made a great deal of progress in his travels, but he still has a lot to learn. And so this. This strikes me as a very appropriate way of. Of illustrating just where Odysseus is in terms of his development, character development, where Telemachus is in his character development. So, yeah.
- [63:22]
A
So kind of just jumping into the book, just a few thoughts, one, before line 60, again, we get the Artemis or Aphrodite reference to Penelope, which I think is really key. Then we kind of get this insight into Melantho. And this is one of the serving women. She's actually sleeping with Eurymachus. And she is rude to Odysseus, right? So there's a violation of guest friendship. The beggar, she berates him. And then even Penelope, right? She's even recalcitrant towards Penelope. And Penelope then lashes out of her as well. Note saying, by the way, you're going to get your comeuppance. And all of your evil works have been seen by me. And I think this is an important scene because it's Homer trying to show us the nature of some of the serving women. Again, loyalty is the standard. And they're sleeping with the suitors, they're disloyal to Odysseus, Right. Basically, they're sleeping with the enemy. They're sleeping with those that are devouring his house, and they are disrespectful, rude, disloyal, et cetera, to their queen. And this is the standard, whether we like it or not. The standard is, are you loyal to the king? And I think one thing that's actually really interesting is that Benardetti in his commentary, points out that there's probably a good chance that a lot of these serving women had never even seen Odysseus, given how long he had actually been away. So it's Actually, then are you loyal to the unknown king? Are you loyal to this idea of the king who might return home? Some are and some are not. And so we kind of get this snapshot of how bad the situation has become with some of the serving women if you weren't already angry at them enough because of Argos. Okay, so Odysseus and Penelope, I, you know, they have this big back and forth. There's lots of things granular that we can get into here. I just from a very high level, here are some of my thoughts. Again, it's not clear to me what Penelope actually knows or suspects versus what Penelope will allow herself to suspect. And I think those two are very different. A few things here. One, why does she even want to meet the beggar? Why does she even want to do this? Now, we did hear from Eumaeus earlier that Penelope would listen to people who came in to see if they brought any word about Odysseus. We do have some type of antecedent for this. But one thing that caught my attention is this is the queen of Ithaca and she is incredibly open with this beggar, incredibly open. And you wonder if that itself is a test of offering all this stuff, the certain intimacy, the certain openness to see then how he will react. And of course, then in the midst of all this intimacy and also the tests that she devises like the clothing and things like this, Odysseus can nail all these because that he actually is who he is, right? He can actually say that he's seen Odysseus and all these things because he knows what to answer. And so, you know, my overall arching question here is just how much does she actually suspect in this whole, you know, back and forth?
- [66:26]
B
So that's a great question. And so what I would do is just draw your attention, your reader's attention to something deacon, but throw it out there. Now the danger is always reading too much into the text. All right, so the first passage that I, that I'd like to point to is around line 242, 243. And there this is Homer narrating. Odysseus heart went out to his grief stricken wife, but under his lids his eyes remained stock still they might have been horn or iron is guile fought back his tears. So the mention of horn, you know, horn colored eyes, I mean, you might say, well, that's whatever, his, his eyes are a certain shade of whatever brown or beige or something. But at the very end, and I don't want to jump to the end of book 19. But I do. I do want to mention one thing. So the book at the end of book 19, Penelope is relating to the beggar a dream that she had. And this is on 408. And she says, well, dreams are hard to unravel. Wayward, drifting things, not all we glimpse in them will come to pass. Then she mentions two gates. Two gates there are for effervescent, evanescent dreams. One is made of ivory, the other is made of horn. She says, those who pass through the ivory, cleanly carved, are will o' the wisps. Their message bears no fruit. He says, but she says, but the dreams that pass through the gates of polished horn are fraught with truth. And I couldn't help but draw this connection that she's been looking into this man's eyes, right? They're having this very intimate conversation, and she notices their color, right? Or a certain characteristic. And then later she drops this. Now, is this her way of subtly telling odysseus, I know who you are. You are the truth? Or is the dream somehow suggesting to her that, you know, this is the man you've been waiting for these 20 years? But, Deacon, I don't know. Again, it's a small. I mean, you say we don't want to get too granular, but I couldn't help but sort of notice this connection between the color of his eyes and her remark that it is through the horn gate that we encounter truth.
- [68:49]
A
No, I like that. And I mean, part of it too is picking up on these clues because obviously I think Homer is very subtle. Homer is a teacher. And now we have two people coming together. The man of twists and turns and this queen of matchless cunning. And you would suspect that then this dance, this dance of rhetoric they do is going to be incredibly subtle, back and forth as they're testing each other. And this is already with Penelope seeing the beggar in the hall and I think starting to move to make the suitors act, which already gives a suspicion, in my opinion, that she either recognizes the beggar or has her suspicions. Because remember, she's already received the prophecy that he is here. Even though I agree that she holds everything to a certain. She holds everything at arm's lengths. And I think this is important to understand. And I. If you can help me. I don't remember where it is in the text, but we're told she says at one point, specifically, I think it's. I think it's later on when she gets to the test, if you will. I don't want to give anything away. But she says at one point that what she is most concerned about is that a God would come back in the disguise of Odysseus, and she has to make sure that it's actually him. So even it. So I guess my point here, without giving other things away, my point here is, is that even if she suspects that it's Odysseus because it looks like him, it talks like him, et cetera, she is actually clever enough to not give way. This isn't like Telemachus in the hut. Telemachus pushed back. Odysseus said, no, I'm actually your dad. And then he was like, oh, my gosh, you're my father. And that was it. She's more clever than this, knowing that there could be a God that comes down that looks like Odysseus and talks like Odysseus, and she's guarded against this. And so I think that even in my point here, being is like, even in this intimate dialogue back and forth, which I think they know much more than they're saying explicitly, even if she comes to understand that the beggar is an Odysseus figure, there's still another chasm that has to be crossed before she's going to open her heart up. And I think you get this again at the very end of book 19, just to kind of carry off this Penelope narrative, where at the very end, after this big back and forth with the beggar, she goes back to her room and, you know, she closed the door and she fell weeping for Odysseus, her beloved husband, to watchful Athena sealed her eyes with welcome sleep. And part of me has always wondered there, like if talking to the beggar so agitated her soul because he's so Odysseus, like. And what does she know? And what will she not allow herself to believe until there's been further proof.
- [71:30]
B
Yeah, We've talked about the ability for, say, dogs to know in ways they have this, like, almost sixth sense. And I mean, Deacon, as a married man, you, I'm sure, can attest that there are ways that you and your wife communicate with each other that is unspoken. Right? You have this connection, this weird, mystical. But maybe it could be easily explained, a connection where Penelope doesn't want to necessarily say out loud, my husband finally has returned, but that she does, in a subtle way, communicate this to him again, because they have this intimacy. And so it's just Homer showing us, again, as the teacher, that he understands the family. He understands relationships in a way that we haven't seen. I mean, there are other married couples that we've encountered. Hector and Andromache, we've seen Menelaus and Helen, but we haven't sort. We haven't seen a relationship like Odysseus and Penelope. And so this is almost presented as kind of an ideal of what a marriage looks like and how. And how husbands and wives should interact with one another.
- [72:46]
A
Yeah, no, it's incredibly beautiful. I think Homer does show a lot of knowledge of the intimacy of husband and wife here. Maybe just a few granular points. I noticed how many times he refers to her as. He says, all my queen, the man of craft assured her noble wife of Laertes son Odysseus. He reminds her several times during this conversation that she is the wife of Odysseus. He uses that very specifically. I thought it was interesting too, that, you know, he swears by Odysseus's hearth, that's around line 350. Like he's bringing these points in multiple times during their conversation. One other thing that caught my attention that was just kind of interesting is at 3:80, he says, you know, if a man is cruel by nature, cruel in action, the mortal world will call down curses on his head while he is alive, and all will mock his memory after death. But then, if a man is kind by nature, kind in action, his guest will carry his fame across the earth and all people will praise him from the heart. Okay, two things here. You asked me earlier, do we think Odysseus has learned from his actions? I think this is a fantastic scene to show that he has. Because he's cursed by. Because of his. Because of his behavior towards the Cyclops, he's cursed. And so here he's pointing out that in the mortal world, if you're cruel in your action, cruel by nature, curses will come down your head while he's alive, and all will mock the memory after death. But if a man is kind by nature, kind in action, his guests will carry fame across the earth. So this is contextualized in guest friendship. Are you cruel or kind? In the context of guest friendship, if you're cruel, you get curses called down upon you, which he did at the Cyclops. If you're kind, then people will remember you for all time. And I think that's actually really fascinating because typically what we've seen so far is the way that you achieve immortality is actually through the thematic that you have to go and have your. What is that? Your aristaya, right? Where you go and you have to do this great deed. Like in the Iliad, and then people will remember your name for all eternity. And so there's that erotic desire for fame. And one of the fecundities of Eros is immortality. And so you can have immortality through your children, or you can have immortality through fame, and you get the name that never dies. And we see this in the choices that were presented to Achilles, I think very clearly here. I think it's really fascinating that another way apparently to gain this immortal fame is actually through Zinnia, through guest friendship. So not through, you know, like a martial prowess or military acts or duels, but rather actually through guest friendship, which I'm assuming there means civilization. Building this up, having the polis, things of this nature. I mean, it's a short but I think incredibly rich passage that, that he explains to Penelope.
- [75:43]
B
So heavy you brought up that passage because it does relate so very well to the other 1 in 18 that I mentioned, where he is speaking with Amphinomis. So as he says, Infinimis, something very similar. Our lives are mood and mind. As we pass across the earth turn, as the days turn. I mean, in 18 and 19 we begin to see emerge. I think we might describe it as Odysseus the philosopher, because this guy has hit rock bottom, right? And it's, you know, that is, that's just it. I mean, oftentimes, you know, they like Nietzsche is quoted as saying, whatever doesn't kill you will only make you stronger. Of course, if like you're struck with some sort of horrible disease, it's hard to really take that seriously. But Odysseus has survived the worst of it. And in emerging from all of these trials and tribulations, I think he has truly gotten. He has a different perspective on life. And so I think this is another lesson that Homer is teaching us, that what is the path to true greatness? That of course it involves suffering. And as Christians, we believe that.
- [76:50]
A
And just one more point on this again. If the Odyssey is the city at peace, then this actually shows us how a soul can gain immortal glory in peacetime. You don't have to actually have that Achilles go to war. You can gain immortal glory. Now, why? By being good at zinnia, by having this, by being good at guest friendship, by building up civilization, by having a well ordered polis, all of these things. And I think it's a fascinating claim. I actually, I think in the Homeric, it's a unique claim up until this point and something that probably needs to be taken seriously. Okay, let's jump to the famous scene with Euryclia and the Scarlet. Okay, so really fascinating scene. We've already kind of alluded to it. So ends up happening. Penelope says, you know, okay, you're the guest, like you know, here comes the bathing and all this stuff. So you're a clea, who by the way was Odysseus's nursemaid. So she's been around for a while, right? So this is like the Argos of people. And so she's going to, you know, bathe him and what's up happening? Well she finds out that he has a scar right down on his feet, down on his foot. So this is down at 4:30 or so. 4:30 is when she already actually this is important. At 4:30 before she even sees the scar. She already says that though that the beggar looks like Odysseus. And I, I, that's just so thick. I mean, you've got to be kidding me. So Euryclea, the old nursemaid can look at the beggar immediately and say, by the way, you look a lot like Odysseus. And you're going to tell me that Penelope can't see this. So I think this is one point. So anyway, she starts to bathe him and she sees the scar this around 440, right? In a flash she knew that scar. And we get this kind of interesting backstory. But what's interesting is, is that it's not just how Odysseus got the scar. Okay, so he's out on a hunt, there's a boar and the boar gored him and so now he has a scar on his leg. But we also get how he received his name, which I think is important. And so he has this, this is his maternal grandfather. Is this the person we're introduced? This is, I don't, how do you pronounce this? And I mean it's two words. It's, it's the, it's the wolf itself. That's the etymology here, the autolycus, that's at like 445 or so. And what's really interesting is if you read his description, the man was his mother's noble father, one who excelled the world at thievery that the subtle shifty oaths Hermes gave him, the gift overjoyed by the thighs of lambs and kids, he burned in the gods honor. Hermes, the ready partner in his crimes. So this is a guy who is so good at giving oaths that are technically correct but not what you suspect, that he basically can thieve from people and actually, people hate him so much, there's a play down here. So people hate him so much, they're praying against him. And so when they bring him the baby that says, hey, look, this is the answer to the prayers, he takes this not as gratitude, but as a negative. And he says, oh, well, just as I have come afar, creating pain for many men and women across the good green earth, so let his name be Odysseus, the son of pain. He'll. He'll a name he'll earn in full. You can also translate that as much accursed. And so now we get the backstory of Odysseus's name. I mean, any thoughts here?
- [80:30]
B
Well, I mean, only that, yeah, I mean, names have meaning, right? They. They refer, they signify. And so, yeah, he was a man born for pain, you know, as the Coen Brothers movie. Oh, brother, where art thou, man of constant sorrow? And so it's like it raises again this question about fate, free will. I mean, could he have lived a rather comfortable life? But he's.
- [80:57]
A
He.
- [80:58]
B
He is the archetype. I mean, he's the archetype of the man who achieves greatness, cultivates virtue not with ease, but with great consternation and struggle.
- [81:13]
A
I mean, one more thought on that. Is that just like his maternal grandfather. Well, I'll phrase it this way, just like Odysseus has Athena, his maternal grandfather had Hermes. I thought that was really interesting that those two, like. So, yes, they're very similar to each other, but they also both have a God who is helping them in these machinations. It's also interesting because it makes him much more like his maternal grandfather and almost not at all like Laertes, who's a character I've always struggled with. Like, how is Odysseus father? Just out to lunch, not doing anything out at the family farm, rolling in the ground, sad, eating lunch with the servants, etc. Like, how is that Odysseus father? So it's interesting here that Homer gives us his lineage and he sounds much more like his maternal grandfather. And there's probably more that could be dug out of that, but I find it very fascinating.
- [82:06]
B
It's also noteworthy Odysseus's response to Euryclia when Euryclia finally reveals that she knows who he is. There isn't this warm embrace between this old nurse, right?
- [82:22]
A
There is embrace. There's technically an embrace.
- [82:24]
B
Well, but, Jesus, do you want to kill me? Right? Because he understands that there's still this ruse needs to be Continued. And so it does remind me back again that Penelope, does she know? Well, again, I suspect that she has a pretty. A pretty good intuition or a strong hunch. But they cannot speak it. They cannot reveal to each other that there is this. There's this knowledge.
- [82:53]
A
Yeah. I mean, is that Clytemnestra Agamemnon? Right. Like, if you. If you tell too early. Right. I could be killed. I think it goes to your point, to his whole machinations and coming home. And then, I mean, the book ends, though, within the setup of one of the most famous scenes of the Odyssey, which is Penelope is going to test the suitors. And again, it's just too thick. Are you kidding me? So she goes and talks to the beggars. To the beggar. And she decides then, oh, you know what I'll do now? I'm just going to do this test. I'm going to put up all these axe heads and see who can fire an arrow through all the axe heads. And by the way, I'm going to use Odysseus bow that basically no one but Odysseus can use. And we'll see why. And she decides to do that after talking to the beggar. No, Penelope knows much more than she's giving on here. There's no way. But I don't think. Again, she has deep suspicions. And so I think that Odysseus is gonna have to prove himself on multiple levels before she finally opens up.
- [83:51]
B
And Homer's a genius. And so he's planting this question in our mind, does she really know? Well, of course she really knows. But if she did, why doesn't she say so? So it's again, Homer's a master. And this is what for many people, this is why the Odyssey is in many ways superior to the Iliad. Because of its tension, because of its drama, because of the buildup to this. This great climax that we'll see in. In a few books where, yes, it is the great slaughter. But. But Homer doesn't utilize any of these other tropes that we've discussed in the Iliad, or at least not to the extent that he does in the Odyssey.
- [84:33]
A
Yeah, no, very good. Homer is a teacher. I think he also might be a philosopher and maybe even a theologian, but this book has layers. It has that poetic dialectic, it has tensions and invites you, I think, to contemplate the perennial truths.
- [84:47]
B
You're in good company because Plato would agree with you that Homer, Homer is a philosopher.
- [84:52]
A
That is true. No, I appreciate it, Dr. Broski, always iron sharpens. Iron. I always appreciate your comments and you helping us guide through this. You have been like a mentor to us.
- [85:00]
B
Yes, I am here.
- [85:01]
A
Remind us where people can find out more about you and your work.
- [85:04]
B
Yeah. So if a substack is the porch and the altar where I engage in my musings about the relationship between Athens and Jerusalem. So I, you know, I love the pagans. I myself am not. But. But I appreciate the contribution that the ancient Greeks made to the intellectual life. But. But also just how Greek wisdom helped to shape the Christian faith. And so that's where I kind of. That's my little sandbox. Yeah.
- [85:38]
A
No, Very good. Well, we appreciate your thoughts here. So everyone go check out his substack as well and support him on there because I think that Dr. Kabowski has a lot to offer us. In the meantime, go check us out on X, YouTube, Facebook, Patreon, Instagram, and probably something else I forgot. And we will see you next week as we continue our 12 week study of the Odyssey. Thank you.