Ella Cressman (3:11)

I have got to be honest with you. I think you can also see the history or the evolution of ingenuity with some of these, for sure. Especially the first two you mentioned. Retinol esters like retinol palmitate and retinol ol very common in our space. But it came in a. I don't want to say like an. A friendlier version than the og, which was like breaking through the skin. Well intended as it was. But I think of that one as retinol, like, wreck it Ralph. You know, he comes in and he just makes a huge mess, gets the job done, but it's what happens in the aftermath. So I love what is happening in the industry now with the rest of them, but it's not like it's super exciting for everyone, right?

Maggie Stasik (3:57)

Yeah, absolutely. Here's where the controversy starts, starting with retinal esters. They're often marketed as gentle vitamin A, but they convert three times before they become active. So, yes, they're gentler because they're weaker. What's your feeling about retinol esters?

Ella Cressman (4:17)

I feel like it's a tough love conversation. Weaker doesn't mean ineffective. They're softer, I think is a better language. It's a different communication with the skin. So I, I like esters when appropriate, and I'm always going to look at the entirety of the formulation and the intention. And then you have to consider what else they have going on in their regimen or their routine.

Maggie Stasik (4:41)

Yeah, I'm right there with you. I, I like retinal esters. I use them often. I feel like they work well for my skin. There's a time and a place for all of these ingredients, I think you could argue.

Ella Cressman (4:52)

Right, for sure, absolutely. And then of course, we have retinol, the classic. There's a ton of, ton of evidence. This is again, like the og, Good results, very effective. But some. Here's where I see the problem with this one is you're adjusting the skin to get used to it. So you have to like insert it into a routine, like a Monday, Friday kind of a situation. Then you grow to Monday, Wednesday, Friday, all well and good. Again, very effective. But that could be too much for me even, like, I think, what day is it just happened last week where I had a client who was on a prescription retinol and I told her, let's just start, you know, why get rid of it? If you already have it, let's start this way. She wasn't using it before. Because of that reason, she would forget what day it was, and she's like, well, I'll just catch it the next time I'm supposed to do it. So great, good results, however, not always easy to incorporate into your daily rhythm. Yeah.

Maggie Stasik (5:45)

And retinol, the classic, the og. This is what was available when we first entered the industry as estheticians. And this was the product that you would say to your clients, you need to use this to prep the skin ahead of your chemical peels, or those people that really wanted great results with a topical product, this is what you'd be recommending. And to your point, Ella, people would often stop using it because they couldn't get past that hump with the irritation.

Ella Cressman (6:15)

Yes, for sure. There was a product that came out. Gosh, did it come out seven years ago? Maybe, or six or seven years ago? And it's retinal. So we have OL&AL. So retinal based. But the way that they had it formed, retinol, I'm gonna call it retinal. Like my friend, retinal is marketed as, like, a faster, better retinol, and it converts more efficiently in the skin. And that's really what we have to consider with retinols or vitamin A derivatives is how are they going to communicate in the skin. But this particular formula was awesome because we have this form that is not gonna have to. Let's call it translate. So converting inside of the skin means it has to translate. Imagine you're translating from Spanish to French to English to Portuguese. Let's say along the way, something may get lost in translation or your messaging might not be as effective. And that's the problem, some say. But this particular retin al is super effective because of the way it's encapsulated, which I think was cool, too. Another innovation.

Maggie Stasik (7:24)

Yeah, cool.

Ella Cressman (7:25)

All right.

Maggie Stasik (7:25)

We then have HPR or hydroxypinacolone retinoid or a granactive retinoid. Some brands claim it doesn't need conversion and works like tretinoin without the irritation. But maybe that's a stretch. Do you have opinions about granactive retinoid? It was kind of a buzzword, I

Ella Cressman (7:44)

feel like for a little while I remember it, but I haven't heard it for so long. And I'm going to be honest with you, I don't really care. I don't see. When you have so many forms that it doesn't make me get excited, I sleep right through that one.

Maggie Stasik (7:59)

And Ella has left the building. Okay. Yeah, you're right. You heard it for a while, and now nothing. And so maybe. Maybe it didn't do quite what it claimed, or people transitioned to other forms of vitamin A.

Ella Cressman (8:14)

There is something else shiny over there. Yeah, exactly.

Maggie Stasik (8:18)

One of the biggest debates in the industry is strength equals results, or no pain, no gain. You know, do you start clients on the strongest form they can tolerate, or do you go low and slow?

Ella Cressman (8:31)

I think, honestly, I really love the analogy of skincare and physical, like, working out and such, because that's what you're doing. So when you have a vitamin A derivative and you go hard in the beginning, you can imagine going hard in a workout, and what happens afterwards is you're so sore, you can't go to the bath, you can't sit down, you go to the bathroom. You're walking around in pain for a few days until it subsides, Then you do it again, and then you do it again. And the theory is the more you go hard in these hard workouts and, you know, give yourself time to rest, do it again, do it again, your body acclimates, and then you can continue going hard. But that doesn't mean that you are having different results than if you did a light workout or yoga. Have you seen Pilates bodies? Holy cannoli. You. Not. Not hard. But it's a different approach, and you're still having good results. So I don't agree or I don't subscribe to the strength equals results. My favorite one is the one they're gonna use.

Maggie Stasik (9:36)

Okay. Yeah. I like how you. I like your twist on that. Ella. For me, I have always been low and slow.

Ella Cressman (9:43)

Nice. Yeah.

Maggie Stasik (9:44)

And there are plenty of clients who have not liked my approach, and they're then not the client for me. I think as. As you put it, going hard is not how I approach the skin. And I think it's too much wounding too often. And yes, to your point, the skin adapts and you can get great results, but it's just not my philosophy.

Ella Cressman (10:09)

I think so too. So how would you approach. How did you approach your clients? Who gave you pushback on that?

Maggie Stasik (10:16)

I did my best in educating them, and I did use that exercise analogy. And they either bought into what I was saying or they didn't. And they weren't my client. Done.

Ella Cressman (10:29)

Room for the next.

Maggie Stasik (10:30)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Ella Cressman (10:32)

I've had that before. Cause I think it's pretty common, especially in a certain generation. And I would do the same thing. Is like, this is better for you long term. Because it's going to give you longer lasting results. You're going to get there the same time, but your skin is not gonna be red and vulnerable along the way. Yeah, but you get to the destination at the same time. Really?

Maggie Stasik (10:56)

Yeah, absolutely. Less is more. I always say let's nurture the skin, keep it healthy. It doesn't require chronic wounding all the time.

Ella Cressman (11:07)

Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

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Ella Cressman (11:56)

Let's get back to the podcast.

Maggie Stasik (11:57)

Have you had clients who insisted on starting strong because they thought it meant quicker results?

Ella Cressman (12:03)

Yep, but we quickly turned that boat. I kept on, but it's saying, hey, let's think about that or go ahead. You know what, go ahead. And then we adapted. I mean, I'm going to meet my clients where they are. Right. So if that's what you want to do, maybe they have a prescription and it's $10 copay because they get it under their health insurance. Okay, well then let's adjust everything else. So that means changing, adding more antioxidants, adding more soothing ingredients. Definitely adding, you know, hyperpigmentation inhibition into their routine if that's what they want to do for sure. Do I try to talk them out of it? Yeah, because I want them to buy my skin care. But you got to meet them where they are.

Maggie Stasik (12:39)

Yeah. I often found this challenge, truly with chemical peeling, less so with topical products. But certainly there are those clients that feel like if they aren't seeing the redness, seeing the peeling, or feeling the burn when they apply the product. Not that retinol burns per se, but that it wasn't then working. And I think that's part of the reason why you have this huge debate around strength equals results. And it's not just strength, it's also how often is your client using it, Whether the product is buffered, how is it formulated, what's the stability, the delivery system you mentioned encapsulation I think.

Ella Cressman (13:21)

Yeah, the encapsulated types are really cool too. Yeah, my favorite.

Maggie Stasik (13:26)

Yeah. The delivery system and then also their skin barrier. So to our point here, the clients that are, you know, no pain, no gain and going hard and what is the health of the skin, the barrier health of the skin, if they then use a very strong retinol and have a strong reaction to that retinol, perhaps they may think it's too strong or it's not for them, or they can't tolerate it because the health of the skin has been depleted.

Ella Cressman (13:53)

So do you think that's why pushing it too early is part of why clients don't comply? Because they think they can't tolerate vitamin A's?

Maggie Stasik (14:01)

Could be, yeah, yeah.

Ella Cressman (14:02)

Because if clients stop using it, it doesn't matter how strong it is, right?

Maggie Stasik (14:05)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Ella Cressman (14:07)

Here's another thing. Formulation is an area where confusion runs wild because people assume a 1% retinol equals 1% retinol. But there's so many other factors like stability but also conversions too. So a 1% retinol or a 3% retinol sounds like more than a.0, 1% prescription, right? Or 0, 3% prescription when they're actually equitable. There's something that happens with chemist formulations to where they can tell this, this is how much is in there and you have to compare it. Ask for, if you're using a, a brand's product, ask for the comparison. And that's an interesting fact also because retinol is, she's, she's a hot mess. She can degrade with heat, with light, with air. So how it's packaged is super important. Does the bottle allow for air exposure? Is it an airless pump? Does it sit in a warm bathroom? Do you take it in your car? Does the product have encapsulated forms in the formulation? So one of my favorite things to talk about, one form that I loved, I was telling you about the Al, it was encapsulated in a really cool way that had calcium and other minerals. And so it's almost like it has a secret pass through the lipid barrier of the skin where other forms will kind of like I was explaining, break through and cause trauma. This one whispers right past it. It's like it has a VIP pass. It doesn't have to wait in line, it doesn't have to cause a commotion. It just gets into the club and then it starts speaking with it. And then along the way, cuz it was in the shell that had these minerals. It was nourishing the skin along the way and helping with communication and hydration which was really cool. So look for that. How is it wrapped, how is it packaged, what is it, what vehicle is it in? Is important too.

Maggie Stasik (16:00)

Another topic and this I think was trending for a while. And just like we were saying with the cranaactive retinoids, this maybe has had its moment in past. But plant based retinols or retinol alternatives like bakuchiol for instance, or other botanical retinol like ingredients that have benefits, um, they're not the same as retinol, they do not convert into retinoic acid. But some clients, they prefer a plant based option. Um, and it has a similar exfoliating properties that a retinol perhaps does.

Ella Cressman (16:35)

I love plant based retinols too. Or retinol mimics retinol. Like alternatives, I think they're fantastic because they're woven into a formula that has other. They should be woven into formulas that have other beneficial ingredients. And it's like a, a, like a delicious salad, sneaky with all these vitamins and minerals inside of it. But so I'm a big fan of those. Yeah.

Maggie Stasik (16:59)

And it's also maybe another way to start someone out slow, someone who's more sensitive or someone who is afraid of the retinols. And you can start them with something like bakuchiol or another plant based alternative to get their skin used to a keratolytic and then slowly bump them up to a true retinol. Um, another controversy is usage rules. And we've touched on this a little bit already. But there used to be these really hard, fast rules about like don't use vitamin A in summer for instance, or don't use it during the day, only use it at night, don't put it around the eyes, don't mix it with your AHAs and BHAs. And I think that most of that is outdated. We don't follow those rules anymore. You can find vitamin A serum specifically for the eyes. It's mixed with your eye cream for instance, and mixing it with AHAs and BHAs. We do that kind of thing all the time now. So those rules were oversimplified and I think the industry really has shifted. I don't know if you have thoughts about that.

Ella Cressman (17:59)

I think so too. But it's interesting because a lot of the education let's talk about with chemical peels, it's still make sure they're off of it for X amount of time, not considering formulations. Then they want you to be off of it for x. Amount of time because you're let's just thought like the top layer is vulnerable, but now with like encapsulations like we talked about or different forms or plant based alternatives, your top layers aren't as vulnerable as before. So is a good rule of thumb. Sure. But I think the assumption of don't use it in the summer doesn't really hold true in Colorado because it's like, oh, because you're out in the sun more often in the summer, but not here. We're always out in the sun. So it's a matter of finding one that's safe. Also with the vitamin A, with AHA's BHA's combo argument, again, that goes to the formulation and formulations are so much more sophisticated than they used to be. It's not a bad idea to hold pause but take that instead as an opportunity to ask questions, right?

Maggie Stasik (18:58)

Yeah, absolutely. And the funny thing is, even though I'm saying all of this and we're having this discussion, I can't let go of my training from 20 plus years ago. So my vitamin C is in the morning, my vitamin A is at night. You know what I mean? It's right. Even though, you know, the industry has evolved and it's not so black and white anymore.

Ella Cressman (19:24)

But your eye cream's still in the cupboard where it was. And I know that you're pushing that retinol, all of them to the lash line. So there's a little gap.

Maggie Stasik (19:33)

It's definitely working for me.

Ella Cressman (19:34)

Yeah. It grows from foundational learning, which is important to see. I happen to know that foundational changing is or excuse me, that foundational education is modernizing, which is exciting. So it's going to be interesting to see.

Maggie Stasik (19:50)

That is exciting. So what's the takeaway here? Vitamin A is powerful, it's good to have in your arsenal, but it's also nuanced. There's no single quote, unquote, best form, only the best fit for each client. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What's your take on vitamin A? Share with us on social media, through Instagram, Facebook or by emailing getconnected scpskincare.com thank you for listening to ASCPSDtalk and as always, for more information on this episode or for ways to connect with Ella and myself or to learn more about ascp, check out the show notes.