Ep 399 – The Proof Problem

Summary

ASCP Esty Talk – Ep 399: The Proof Problem
Date: June 10, 2026
Host: Maggie Stasik
Co-host: Ella Cressman

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Episode Overview

This episode, "The Proof Problem," explores the demand for scientific proof in skincare. Hosts Maggie Stasik and Ella Cressman dig into what “proof” actually means in the context of esthetics, how brands and professionals use—and sometimes misuse—clinical studies, before-and-after images, and consumer perception to substantiate product claims. They share personal experiences, practical advice, and strategies for evaluating “proof,” discussing the responsibilities estheticians have to educate themselves and their clients.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution and Need for Proof in Skincare

• Pressure for Proof: Maggie notes the increasing expectation for products to be "proven," but the definition of proof is often murky.

  • "It feels like right now there's more pressure than ever for skincare to be proven. But what that proof actually means isn't always clear." (01:48, Maggie)

• Historical Mistrust: Ella recounts how historical advertising scandals and misleading claims in beauty have led to a present culture of skepticism.

  • "We have this almost rolling mistrust of claims and such. And then we have information way more available... with that comes misinformation or under information." (02:28, Ella)

2. Types of Proof in Skincare

• Clinical Data:

  • Maggie and Ella agree that robust proof ideally comes from clinical data, but not all claims are easily measured or rigorously tested.
    • "The design study, not every claim is equally easy to measure. Something like hydration...while things like long-term skin changes are more complex." (03:34, Maggie)

• Consumer Perception:

  • How a client experiences a product is a crucial but subjective part of proof. Scent, texture, and emotional connection often drive buying decisions more than actual visible change.

    • "It's the experience of it that’s the emotional part." (06:58, Ella)

    • Ella admits that she, too, buys for the sensory and emotional experience, even when scientific support is weak:

      • "I'm probably going to go with the other one just for the perception of it." (07:56, Ella)

• Visual Proof (Before & After Photos):

  • Both hosts express skepticism about before-and-after photos due to manipulation through lighting, makeup, and posing.
    • "Lighting, positioning, timing—all of these things matter...the before, the client looks like crap...the after, amazing lighting, they've put makeup on the client." (08:45, Maggie)
    • "The ones that kill me are the befores of the client in their car...the after is only eight weeks later in the same, you know, bright lighting." (08:58, Ella)

3. The Flaws of Clinical Claims and Marketing

• Study Limitations:

  • Hosts highlight red flags in clinical claims: small sample sizes, limited demographics, short testing periods, product used in controlled or unrepresentative settings.
    • "Sometimes if you look at those fine details, it was like we studied with two people. This is the outcome...That's not really a study." (04:50, Maggie)
    • "We did the study on this sunscreen in Portland, Oregon...with three people who were all 20 years old...it's definitely gonna work for somebody who lives by the equator, who is a darker Fitzpatrick, for sure." (05:13, Ella)

• Marketing vs. Reality:

  • Marketing language oversimplifies or exaggerates.
    • "'9 out of 10 people agree that they saw visible improvement.' Did they? Who are they? Why did you only do it on 10 people?" (10:48, Ella)

4. What Professionals Can—and Should—Do

• Critical Evaluation:

  • Estheticians must assess data, ask for studies or white papers, and go beyond what reps provide.
    • "You don't have to be a scientist...look for some evidence. If you're not getting the answer that you want, look for evidence on efficacy of the ingredient and it's out there." (14:25, Ella)
    • "PubMed is a great place to go to because they have a lot of peer-reviewed studies and peer-reviewed is key there." (14:56, Ella)

• Product Development Questions:

  • Ella warns against brands that launch products too quickly without proper testing, advising pros to ask:
    • How long was the product in development?
    • Who tested it, and what did they report?
      • "How long has this been in production? ...What are some professionals that have used it and said...?" (15:52, Ella)

• The Value of Historical Use and Product Mechanism:

  • Ella uses the example of PDRN (Polydeoxyribonucleotide) to highlight the importance of understanding historical use, formulation, and delivery mechanism—not just buzz or trends.
    • "How does it get into the skin? ...What's the concentration? ...How do they know it works?" (17:08, Ella)

• Decision-Making Process for New Products:

  • Maggie shares a methodical approach, balancing peer reviews, clinical data, and visual proof before adopting a product for personal or client use.
    • "What are people saying about it? What is their experience? What are the studies? ...Is this proof? Do I like it? Do I want to use it?" (18:55, Maggie)

• Try Before You Buy—for Clients:

  • Don't feel pressured by launch sales; research and self-experiment before offering to clients.
    • "Try first on yourself. Investigate first, do a little research...go for it and then decide if you want to buy." (19:39, Ella)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We have information way more available than any time in recorded history...with that comes misinformation or under information."
  — Ella Cressman (02:28)

• "It's the experience of it that’s the emotional part."
  — Ella Cressman (06:58)

• "Sometimes I gaslight myself...I'm like, okay, okay, I'm seeing it. I think I'm seeing it. It's doing something."
  — Maggie Stasik (06:20)

• "Lighting, positioning, timing—all of these things matter...not all images are created so."
  — Maggie Stasik (08:45)

• "Don't stop at the answer that you get. If it's something that you really want to know...look for some evidence."
  — Ella Cressman (14:34)

• "How long has this [product] been in production? ...A good company is going to spend their time making sure that they have tried it and they have a pool of beta testers."
  — Ella Cressman (15:52)

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Important Timestamps

• [01:48] – Defining the current "proof" pressure in skincare
• [02:28] – Mistrust in skin care claims, historical lessons
• [03:34] – What constitutes clinical data in skincare; measurement challenges
• [04:50] – Pitfalls of small or poorly constructed studies
• [06:58] – The power of consumer perception and emotional connection to products
• [08:45] – Manipulation and unreliability of before-and-after images
• [10:48] – Marketing exaggerations and skepticism
• [14:25] – How estheticians can critically evaluate marketing claims and clinical proof
• [15:52] – Questions to ask about product development and testing
• [17:08] – Example: Responsible evaluation of trending ingredients (PDRN)
• [18:55] – Maggie's process for evaluating proof as a consumer and practitioner
• [19:39] – Best practices for adopting/using new products: research, self-experimentation, caution

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Conclusion

Maggie and Ella stress that “proof” in skincare is a nuanced mix of science, experience, and context. Estheticians have a responsibility to be informed skeptics: ask smart questions, expect evidence, and not succumb to marketing hype. Clinical studies, though important, are not infallible; consumer perception and visual changes also matter but must be weighed carefully. Ultimately, ethical and effective practice means combining data with discernment, prioritizing client safety and satisfaction.

For listeners: The hosts invite professionals to share their own definitions and experiences of “proof” in skincare via ASCP’s social channels.

Transcript

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[Ella Cressman]

Foreign.

[Maggie Stasik]

Hello and welcome to ASCP's Estee Talk. I'm your co host Maggie Stasik, ASCP's program director.

[Ella Cressman]

And I'm Ella Cressman, licensed esthetician, certified organic skincare formulator, ingredient junkie and content contributor for ascp.

[Maggie Stasik]

Ella, it feels like right now there's more pressure than ever for skincare to be proven. But what that proof actually means isn't always clear. Are you feeling that?

[Ella Cressman]

Yeah, I do and I've seen like a 360 view of it. Yeah. So like kind of what, you know what we're talking about today, I've seen it on all sides so I have some opinions.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah, we're seeing more demand for clinical testing brands integrating testing earlier in development and I think both retailers and professionals expecting stronger substantiation and as estheticians that puts more pressure on us to feel confident in what we're recommending.

[Ella Cressman]

I think. So for sure if we took a ride in the wayback machine though, I mean why we're here now is because somebody somebodies have really messed it up along the way. If we take a ride in the wayback machine and let's go back to 1950 something, if you look at ads from that time it's like this is if it was a skincare ad, it's gonna make you beautiful, it's gonna shrink everything. You're going to feel great and then come to find out they were putting something harmful on because 20 years later they're like oh Whoops, sorry about that. Or other commercials, like magazine ads where they have doctors sitting at their desk smoking a cigarette, like this doctor prefers this brand. And like late years later, it's like, oh, this is the worst thing you can do. Right. So we have this almost rolling mistrust of claims and such. And then we have information way more available than any time in recorded history as far as like what we have access to. And with that comes misinformation or under information. Right? Yeah.

[Maggie Stasik]

Oh, yeah.

[Ella Cressman]

Being under informed.

[Maggie Stasik]

I agree with all of that. I think that it comes down to this. Proof in skincare comes down to a combination of things. First is clinical data. This includes measurements. The design study, not every claim is equally easy to measure. Something like hydration, for instance, that's more straightforward. While things like long term skin changes are more complex.

[Ella Cressman]

For sure. And it cracks me up, cause when you said that, I just thought of other ads. I'm gonna say advertisements or ad slicks or things that reps will come in with and say, look at the difference here. And if we're being honest, they're like, ooh, this is the skin before. And it's like a meant to be, like a cross section of the skin. And it's probably a punch or something like a skin punch. And then this is what they're showing X amount of days after. And if we're being honest, we're really going, ooh, but we don't know what we're looking at. Yeah, you really don't. And I think that's not uncommon. What does that really mean? So now we're also in this phase of before and after pictures, like somehow we have to prove it. But to your point, that long term, that long game, there's so much more to that story than it just being X product or X protocol.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah. I think too that some people are not discerning when they're looking at these studies. Who commissioned the study, you know, what was the length of the study, how many people were involved? Sometimes if you look at those fine details, it was like we studied with two people. This is the outcome that we got. You know what I mean?

[Ella Cressman]

Yeah.

[Maggie Stasik]

It's like that's not really a study. This isn't giving you good data.

[Ella Cressman]

And we did the study on this sunscreen in Portland, Oregon or whatever. Just saying with three people who were all 20 years old and you know of a certain Fitzpatrick.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah.

[Ella Cressman]

Not broad enough to say. So it's definitely gonna work for somebody who lives by the equator, who is a darker Fitzpatrick, for sure.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah. Entirely. Sometimes I find myself looking at before and after pictures. Just because you brought this up. Do you ever look at the before and after pictures and say, I, I'm not seeing any change.

[Ella Cressman]

Yes, I zoom. Yes. And I even zoomed in on my phone because there's a new product released recently and the product sounds cool, I'm going to try it. But they put out, just look at these changes and I'm like zooming in on my phone and it looks like really one of them is just the same day, but like different lighting.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah.

[Ella Cressman]

And another one, I'm like, oof. They were real though. They're real people, I'll give them that. And so a slight change nonetheless. But I wonder how many people go, okay, you have them check. And rather than this says, I don't see a difference. I think it's more the former.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah, I mean I gaslight myself sometimes and I look at these before and afters and I'm like, okay, okay, I'm seeing it. I think I'm seeing it. It's doing something.

[Ella Cressman]

Yeah, I do it to myself too.

[Maggie Stasik]

So the, the second is consumer perception. This is how the client actually experiences the product, how it feels, how it performs in their routine.

[Ella Cressman]

I agree.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah. So you said you saw this product, you saw the before and afters. There's probably not much change in those before and afters, but it sounds cool. You're gonna try it?

[Ella Cressman]

I'm gonna try it, maybe.

[Maggie Stasik]

The product smells amazing. It goes on beautifully. Are you sold?

[Ella Cressman]

Yes. Cause it's the experience of it that's the emotional part.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah.

[Ella Cressman]

So I'm thinking now of another product that I use today that it was sold as. It's going to make all these changes. It's gonna change your cells. And I've got a lot of cells that need to be changed in this particular instance. And I'm like involved for the emotional part. That perception of the emotional part of what it's promising. I didn't see much change in the before and afters except for in their like computer modeled versions. But anyways, I'm trying it nonetheless for the experience of it, but it stinks. So I don't think I'm gonna try it for that long. Versus a very similar one that I bought from like a big box beauty store that has twofold, like it's basically a skin tightening thing. So I have the skin tightening and this experience of the scent of that and the intention of it being to help you sleep too. They didn't have any before and afters either. Versus this other company who does have before and afters. But to be honest, I'm probably going to go with the other one just for the perception of it.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah, that's interesting. So third is visual proof. And we've. We just touched on this. But it's before and after images. They can be really powerful, but they are also one of the most misunderstood forms of proof, honestly. So you said this already. Lighting. Maybe there's shift in lighting, positioning, timing. All of these things matter. And not all images are created so you could have a before photo that is different lighting. May. I've seen before and after photos where the before the client. Honestly, they just. They look like crap. They don't have makeup on. Right. It's poor lighting. It feels like that's intentional.

[Ella Cressman]

They're frowning.

[Maggie Stasik]

They're frowning. Yeah. The after, amazing lighting. They've put makeup on the client. They are looking beautiful. They're looking glowing. That doesn't speak to the result of the product.

[Ella Cressman]

The ones that kill me are the befores of the client in their car or their patient in their car.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah.

[Ella Cressman]

And then the after is only eight weeks later in the same, you know, bright lighting, which is gonna drown out any. Is gonna shift the presentation of hyperpigmentation or, you know, laxity under eyes or whatever. Yeah, I hate that.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah. There needs to be like a little bit of a reality check. So not all clinical claims are created equal. Testing varies widely in quality. Um, some claims are harder to prove than others. So we've said that. And I think this, like the example given earlier, where testing something like hydration, for instance, versus anti aging over time is a really good example of that.

[Ella Cressman]

I also feel like there's a lot of weight in those circumstances put on the product and not. So you're basically saying you're putting all your faith into this moisturizer or this serum or this protocol. But there's so many variables outside of that. I choose not to use before and afters on my. Listen, I'm not. My social media sucks. But I don't use any of it in any marketing. I do show them their before and afters, but because there's so many different things to consider in there because we will have progress in an elevated way and then, you know, a regression a little bit because there's an event or they went on vacation or they're going through something sad. And so it's just a. It's just so much more than just a serum.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah. And marketing language, I think, also is a major factor in all of this, it can simplify the science. It can make it sound way more amazing than it legitimately is. It can make those results sound more definitive than they actually are.

[Ella Cressman]

Yeah, it was like 9 out of 10 people think that they or 9 out of 10 people agree that they saw visible improvement. Did they? Yeah. Did they? Who are they? Yeah. Why did you only do it on 10 people? Yeah. That's the other thing. Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

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[Ella Cressman]

Okay, here we go. Let's get back to the podcast.

[Maggie Stasik]

So this is where estheticians come in. This doesn't mean you need to become a scientist, but it does mean you need to be more informed.

[Ella Cressman]

Can we talk about that for a second?

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah.

[Ella Cressman]

So. So let's talk about the questions that you should ask when a product rep comes in and says, oh, I've got this new thing and here's the before and afters and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I want to just start this with, I've been on the other side of the table. I've been in education and in the rep position. And on the flip side, one time I was working with the brand and we released a new sunscreen that was awesome. It was such an amazing sunscreen. It was light, it was really absorbed. Well, it looked great. The skin looked dewy. And it lasted all day. It had this protection, this protection, this protection. And one of them was H E V protection too which a lot of em have now. But so hey, you were, you're gonna be protect finally you're gonna be protected from your computer or your phone or all these other situations. And people are like oh my gosh, it's so exciting, sign me up. And they had that perception experience where they were able to feel it. They saw our before and afters, everything. But we would get those, we would comptrolls but those ones would be like do you have the studies to back up but the white papers. So this is a conversation that used to happen about 15 years ago that doesn't come up as often now. But you have the white papers on the eff, you have this product and we'd be like no, but we have em on the ingredients which is fine too. So just it's something you can ask for. Like you can ask for proof of it and don't stop at the answer that you get. If it's something that you really want to know you. There's again there's so much information at our fingertips now than there was 10 years ago even look for some evidence. If you're not getting the answer that you want, look for evidence on efficacy of the ingredient and it's out there. So you don't have to be a scientist but you can find some of the information. PubMed is a great place to go to because they have a lot of peer reviewed studies and peer reviewed is key there.

[Maggie Stasik]

I think that's a really smart call out.

[Ella Cressman]

Yeah. And it's, it's a matter of using it in a way that helps you because we are trained. We have so much technology at our fingertips also that can really help get us answers quickly because we're busy, let's be honest, we're busy. We want to trust those things. And the reps in the companies, the way that they get that information is from their, the lab and they get that information from their ingredient suppliers. So if you trace it all the way back to the very beginning there's going to be a paper on it. And sometimes, in all fairness, sometimes the technology is new too. And so it's not. You might not find a paper on it and that's when you just have to decide to trust or not.

[Maggie Stasik]

Your ability to interpret what you're saying and communicate that clearly back to your client also really is what matters.

[Ella Cressman]

The other thing to ask for though because here's the thing, I worked with Several product lines and one of them would just push out products. Push them out, Push them out. Like there would be an idea in February and there'd be a product launch in, in March. That is when you got to be scared. How long has this been in production? Not just an idea, but how, how many people have used it? What are some professionals that have used it and said a good company is going to spend their time making sure that they have tried it and they have a pool of beta testers, if you will. So that's, that's one thing that you can do as a professional for the pruvit, you know, ask who's tried it and what have they noticed.

[Maggie Stasik]

I think the big question is, what do you consider proof, personal experience?

[Ella Cressman]

I mean, a little bit, A little bit of everything. I'm excited. Let's just take PDR in, for example. We see a lot of companies now coming up with topical PDR in. And if we look historically about the use of PDRN, back in the 80s, they started using it for knee pain, or don't quote me, but something like that. Regenerative properties for tissue remodeling in something orthopedic. So it has a long history of use. Somewhere somebody said the salmon sperm facial, if it works on the knees, it's gotta work on the face. When they were doing it on the knees, they have to inject it. So it's real close so that it bypasses the lipid layers of the skin and it gets into where it needs to go. Okay, then therefore the application on the skin is we're either gonna inject it or we're gonna put it on post microneedling or with microneedling. So the argument would be, here's a great question to ask if that's a history of use from 1980 something, however many decades that's been, and now we're, we're seeing companies come out with just topical products. The question to ask is, how does it get into where it needs to get to? How does it get into the skin? The answer could be many things. But as I'm seeing these topical PDRN serums come out, I want to know what's the concentration? How do they know that it works? And then how do they know that it's getting to where it needs to get to? So not just the PDRN serum, topical from. Just because it's buzzworthy and because we know that it works in these other capacities. That's a huge. Wait a minute. Pause. Prove it to me for me. And so there's one company I'm really excited about there. It seems to be that they have some additional technology that's going to allow for it to penetrate the skin and have that very similar communication. So that's what I'm investigating in this other one is like, oh, we have this, you know, great marketing, amazing social media. But I'm like asking more questions and not getting the answer that I have. It doesn't make me want to take that personal experience because first step is like, tell me and then let me see. Right?

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah, I am with you. I'm excited. I want to try all the things. But when I am thinking about what's my proof? If you take like you're looking for a new restaurant, you're looking for a new doctor, you're looking for any of the things, my process is going to go online. What are the reviews? What are other people saying? What are my before and afters? Right. Are there white papers? What's the science? What's the documentation? What are the studies that have been done? Is it a study on five people? Is a study on 500 people?

[Ella Cressman]

Is it a study on people?

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah, exactly. Is a study on people. Exactly. So I look at all those things. What are people saying about it? What is their experience? What are the studies? What are the before and after show? And then I decide all those things help in my own perception and decision. Is this proof? Do I like it? Do I want to use it?

[Ella Cressman]

Do I want to use it? And then do I want to use it on my clients? Yeah. So here's the thing, like, don't get stuck on launch. Here we go. 12. If you buy now, you get 20% off. Don't, don't feel pressured that way because there's gonna be another sale. They'll have a trade show sale or something like that. Don't feel pressured to buy. Try first on yourself. Well, investigate first, do a little research, then decide if you wanna try. If you wanna try, go for it and then decide if you wanna buy.

[Maggie Stasik]

Listeners, we wanna hear from you. What do you consider proof? Share with us on social media through Instagram, Facebook or by emailing. Get connected Twitter at ascpskincare. Com. Thank you for listening to ASCPSDtalk. And as always, for more information on this episode or for ways to connect with Ella and myself, or to learn more about ascp, check out the show notes.