Today, in 2025, there are numerous mental health professionals on television and streaming podcasts who talk openly about the state of President Trump's mental health. They don't pull any punches, given the ample evidence from his public appearances and his frequent online diatribes. They say he has a personality disorder, that he's an antisocial malignant narcissist who's in serious cognitive and physical decline. The irony is that, back when I recorded this interview with forensic psychiatrist Dr. Bandy X. Lee, she and the other 27 contributors to their 2017 book The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump knew that they would be accused of violating the American Psychiatric Association's "Goldwater Rule." This principle states that psychiatrists are prohibited from offering opinions on the mental state of individuals that they have not personally evaluated.

This rule was created after, in 1964, Fact magazine published a survey asking psychiatrist to state whether they thought presidential candidate Barry Goldwater was psychologically fit to be President. The survey's results led to widespread ethical concerns and public outcry, prompting the APA to develop a formal set of ethics rules for its members.

However, in her book and in the part of our conversation that was unfortunately edited out, Dr. Lee asserted that if a mental health professional saw someone publicly and repeatedly displaying behavior that gave her or him cause for concern, they have every right to sound the alarm, even ask the authorities to put the person in a 72-hr involuntary hold for evaluation. But Yale Medical School and the courts did not agree with her, and she was shown the door.

That was just 3 years ago. And yet, as I stated up front, mental health professionals are publicly calling out Trump's mental health problems and not suffering any consequences.

As you listen to Dr. Lee, I think you'll agree that she and the other writers correctly described and predicted the how problematic it would be if Trump were put in power.