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Ask Haviv Anything
111: How Somaliland and Israel became fast friends, with Amb. Mohamed Hagi
00:35:44
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to Ask Khalif Anything. I'm extremely excited today to be introducing Ambassador Muhammad Haji as Somaliland's first Ambassador to Israel. We're thrilled to have him on the podcast and we're going to be diving into this brand new, fascinating relationship. Before we get into it, I want to tell you that this episode is sponsored by an anonymous sponsor who asked to dedicate it to the victims of October 7th. Simple anonymous, and we're very grateful for that support. I also would like to invite everyone to join our Patreon community. It helps us keep this project going. We need your support. If you're interested in asking the questions that guide the topics we talk about. That's the place where you do it. And also you get to take part in our monthly live streams where I answer your questions live. We have a great time over there. Please join us at www.patreon.com askhaviv. Anything that link is in the show notes Mr. Ambassador, how are you?
- [01:02]
B
I'm fine, thank you very much. Thank you for having me here.
- [01:07]
A
Thank you so much for coming on. Let's start with just tell us a bit about yourself beyond the, you know, education in Britain. Ambassador to Taiwan. Where do you come from in Somaliland? Where are you from? It seems like if you go from Taiwan to Israel, you like complicated and sensitive postings and policies. And I've been reading about your work. You're not just an ambassador in the simple sense that other countries might just have a career ambassador. You helped build this relationship. So tell us about yourself and how you came to be the Ambassador to Israel from Somaliland.
- [01:46]
B
Thank you very much Aviv. I really appreciate and thank you for having me here today. You know, people sometimes ask why I have so often been interested with first this I see it less as a distinction and more as a reflection of Somaliland's formative journey. I was involved early on in establishing our Coast Guard, helping design a system to secure roughly around 850km of coastline against piracy, illegal fishing and transnational crime. I later served as a Senior Advisor on Macroeconomic Policy in the Ministry of Finance and then on Foreign Policy. I was the first Senior Advisor in the Foreign Policy in the Ministry of Foreign affairs as well, contributing to how Somaliland positions itself externally. I had the privilege of serving as our first Ambassador to Taiwan, followed by advising the President on foreign affairs and international cooperation as well. And today I serve as an Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to Israel, with cocurrent accreditation across the region. Each role has been part of A continuous effort to build institutions where none previously existed. So I don't know exactly why that is happening to me, but I always made these complications and I'm very delighted that I worked hard on building the relationship between Somaliland and Taiwan from scratch and also Israel, Somalia relations, which I have been involved for the last 12 months.
- [03:13]
A
So we're going to get into that. Somaliland seems to know how to build new things in the world. Before we get into that, tell us about Somaliland. What should foreigners who maybe haven't even heard of the country know about it? We've had an episode before, but that was just me explaining, I guess the Israeli thinking from that end, what Somaliland is, where it comes from. I think people would learn a lot more from you. What is Somaliland's story and what should we know about the culture, the religion, the identity? However, whatever you think is important for us to know.
- [03:48]
B
I know that there are lots of literature review for those who want to read Somaliland and it's a 35 years old country. So what I can probably say is that Somaliland is a stable sort of governing country that are sustained peace and institutional continuity for the last 35 years in a challenging regional environment. While many might not yet be familiar with it, the reality is that Somaliland has developed functioning democratic institutions, maintained internal security and fostered a distinct political identity grounded in a plan of a traditional and modern governance. It's a society shaped by Islamic values, a strong social cohesion and a deep commitment to to order and accountability. So this is the country of Somaliland. So I can briefly say for that and those who want to read Somaliland's history, whether that's 1960 and before 1960, they will know that Somaliland was a country before it voluntarily united with no act of union with Somali in 1960 and then restored its sovereignty back from the union that has failed in 1991. Since then it was a democracy, it was solid ruling country that was functioning the best of its kind in the Horn of Africa region and the greater Eastern Africa region.
- [05:08]
A
And when you say the union failed, it failed of course in brutal war, war by Somalia against the people of Somaliland. I you know, Somaliland has a currency and you can't trade on swift, the banks can't trade on swift and the currency isn't traded in the international currency markets. You have governance and police even though you're not a recognized UN member state. There isn't a definition in political science for a state that you don't meet. There are states recognized by The UN that don't meet all those definitions and you meet all the definitions. And so I have two questions and we'll get to the international One, why? Why don't they recognize you? Second, first question. How did you build this success story? You have had elections. We're talking about the Horn of Africa. You have had elections with real changes of government. You have accountability that is not a joke. You have better monetary policy and a currency that you can't trade with the world than the countries around you and currencies that can trade with the world. You believe in institution building. Forgive me for sounding like an ad I was not paid by the Somaliland government. People should go back to my first episode on Somaliland. It's an extraordinary story. It's not just an extraordinary story. It's a story that calls to question the world's standards and international standards. If Somaliland doesn't qualify, what does? So, you know, why are you successful when literally the international community has locked you into boxes, disabled your ability to access banking and International Monetary Fund support, All the things that recognition means. You don't have any of those things and you're more successful than all your neighbors who do and get vast aid and all of the rest of it. And then the second part is, why won't they recognize you?
- [07:05]
B
Yeah, very good. True question is a bit broader question is the first thing is that the reason why Somaliland is different from every country in this region is that because of the social contract people of Somaliland, when we liberated our country from the dictatorial regime that killed 200,000 people and destroyed all our cities, including the capital of Somaliland, Argesa and many other places. And our people, Most of them 60 or 70% of them, evacuated from Somaliland to Ethiopia. Then when we liberated the country, we came together. Then what we succeeded was something that no one in the world can support was the. We have done the demobilization and disarmament on our own people of Somalia and their clients. They came together, they decided to make peace within and then restore their sovereignty from the union that has completely failed. So what we have done was a disarmament of our Malaysia that has been liberating the country and then the demobilization and reintegration of the people of Somaliland. Then we succeeded to build a state, the peace building programs which is funded by the people of Somaliland on their own, and then homegrown democracy, this democracy that function in Somaliland, that I think that no other country in the region has this kind of a democracy. It's not a self imposed democracy, it's a homegrown democracy where people of Somal choose to have this kind of democracy in the country. Last elections, if you are familiar with Somaliland, it was 2003 elections, presidential elections. Only 80 votes difference was between the main opposition party and the governing party. And only 80 votes, 8, 0 votes. And then it was a peaceful transfer of power every single time. Even the opposition party that lose the election have never go to the court. They just accepted the results in that way. So this is the social contract between the people of Somaliland. They want peace, the very peace loving people in this region and the world to build the country. The other thing is that I just want to say something about the democracy of Somaliland. Our democracy system is not externally imposed completely. As I told you before, it has evolved from within. So Somaliland has successfully combined a modern structure with customary mechanisms of dialogue and conflict resolution. This has enabled us to maintain political stability, conduct critical elections and ensure peaceful transfers of power in a region often characterized by volatility. Somaliland demonstrates that democratic governance that can take roots and ensure when it reflects the local reality. So the reason that many countries not recognizing Somaliland is something to be, you know, ask those countries who not really actually recognize Somaliland that. But we build everything that a state has. Even we're better off than countries that already have the membership of the United nations or members of the African Union. When it comes to peace and political stability, when it comes to democracy, when it comes to financing even we are wealthier. So many countries in Africa. So that is the situation in Somaliland. And it has. Somaliland deserves to be, to recognize, to be recognized by the international community. Something that we are seeking in engaging. But we have a very good relationship with Somalil. And although it's not, although we don't have a formal recognition from many countries in the world, we have this, you know, relationship with neighboring countries. We our partner in Ethiopia, which is strategic partner in the heart of Africa region. We, we have a very good relationship. And what we contributed to this region is peace, political stability and democracy. Although the countries in the region have not that much democracy. But we have this, we contributing good things to the people of the region.
- [11:08]
A
To me it's also extraordinary that you'll send an ambassador to Taiwan, you'll send an ambassador to Israel. You play on the biggest geopolitical chess arena without chessboard, without all of those tools, all that whole toolkit of recognition. And that leads me to the next question. What do ties with Israel mean for Somaliland, Obviously I'm asking about the geopolitics, the Horn of Africa. There was talk in some of the media about military bases or military cooperation. India wants to be a partner of Somaliland. I don't know about recognition, but partnership of some kind. The emirates, but not just the geopolitics. I want to start specifically with the Israeli relationship. In February when Israel accepted your ambassadorship or granted accreditation, there's that formal process of taking in an ambassador. I don't think the ink was dry on that letter by the Israeli Foreign Minister when you already had a team from the Somaliland Water Authority in Israel on the ground learning about planning water systems. So you from your initiative are just eager to get as much as possible out of it. Can you tell us about that? What does the relationship with Israel meaning for Somaliland?
- [12:31]
B
Thank you very much again, that was a very, very important question. Our engagement and relationship with Israel should be understood as a part of a broader strategic orientation. Somaliland is a. Somaliland is deliberately cultivating relationship with partners that value stability, innovation or responsible governance. While the geopolitical dimension is evident, the relationship is also substantive. Focus on practical cooperation in areas such as technology, water management, agriculture and security. Of course, from our perspective this is a foundation of a long term deep partnership built on shared interests. So what we are going to build with the Israelis is a strategic partnership that can last forever. We see Israel as a very, very important country for us. It is the first country that recognized Somaliland in 1960 when we gained our independence from the UK government 26 June 1960. And then Israel became the first country again that recognized Somaliland for the first time. So Israel is something for Somalilanders. Our hearts and minds are always with Israel because of these recognitions. We need to build a relationship that is mutually beneficial for Israeli people, for Israeli government, for our people and our government as well. And that can last long. It will be based on economic development. We have natural resources in Somaliland. We have rare earth minerals in Somaliland. We have oil and gas. We have a long coast, 850km. We have a territory of 177,000km square. So we have a lot to offer to our partner Israel. And Israel is a kind of a manufacturing industry. They have the know how. We have the natural resources. So in that way we can benefit economically. And we look at one of the most strategic areas in the in the world when it comes to security. At the same time, not only security, but also economic and trade. Our neighbor is next door. Ethiopia, 130 million people. And then we have 16 landlord countries in Africa that can connect to Berbera. So we have a lot for Israel and of course we are benefiting Israel for many, many areas. So this is what we need to build is a relationship that's in depth, that will be beneficial for people in Israel, for the economic. We are going to contribute the Israeli economy. We want also Israel to contribute our economy on trade and also security wise, we are going to contribute each other because we have, although we have different enemies, although we have common enemies at the same time, terrorists, piracy, all these are common enemies for Israelis and also Somalandis. So we are working together and we want this relationship to prosper. And of course it will prosper under my leadership and the leadership of the new ambassador being appointed recently at the two governments, the Prime Minister and the President of Somalia as well.
- [15:42]
A
I think Israelis like just about everything that they hear about Somaliland. There's something defiant and there's something plucky and about standing in a world where recognition, you know, you don't fit. You don't fit in the conception of the countries around you. I want to dig into that part of it just a tiny bit more. The lack of recognition, what it, what does it cost and how do you overcome those costs? Just to mention again, you know, you have a hard time accessing international banking. You have a hard time getting on the currency market. You're not on the currency markets, right? Healthcare facilities, they're not connected to international banks, databases. Just my simple question is how do you manage, and not just manage, how do you turn around a success story that outstrips the countries around you in many ways? What is that story?
- [16:43]
B
I will start like the absence of formal recognition does impose tangible growth rates. Of course, we're not denying that, particularly in financial systems, international banking and access to global institutional frameworks. However, Somalan has adopted by strengthening internal systems, maintaining fiscal discipline and leveraging selective partnerships. Our progress under such constraints is not incidental. It reflects structural resilience. Recognition would not create capacity. It will simply allow that capacity to operate without unnecessary limitations. So what we understand from our region is that of course you know that there are many countries in Africa, many countries in Asia, many countries in Latin America that are very much suffering while they have the recognition, while they have the membership of the United Nations. But what we manage is that of course we are not recognized country, but we have a people here, 6.5 million people. We have a governing, we have a functioning government here. We have a huge land full of Resources and we can partner and we can enter relationships with other countries. So and we can also trade within Somaliland and our neighbors. That is exactly how we manage to do something in our economy and that our people can survive. So we have a bigger economy than many, many countries in the world when it comes to gdp, when it comes to income per capita, when it even comes the unemployment rate. So this is exactly how we manage things. We understand that recognition doesn't create the capacity. These are always the people that need to build this capacity and to do something on their own, build their own constitutions. We have, let's say in Africa, when it comes to Africa, we have a bank. It's a private bank. It is called Dabshil Bank. We have many other banks in Somalidad. We have free communication companies in Somaliland. We have one of the fastest Internet in the world and cheapest Internet in the world. We, our people, they just came together and built this. And we are treating people, our people are treating people. We don't have many industries in Somaliland or matter of fact, I'm talking about, you know, factories in Somaliland. But what we have is that we have a good port in Somaliland. One of the most is strategic one. We have a long coast. So what we do is that we engage our business people. By the way, 95% of our economy lies in the private sector. Only 5% or 4% of the economy is governed by the government. So the private sector came together, they just tried to engage the world and try to import commodities and goods from outside. And what they did was that because we have these ports and facilities and they re export that into our neighboring countries. So this is how Somaliland people really create jobs and engage the wealth importing and re exporting. Because our markets are free. We have a free economic market here in Somaliland. We have a peace, we have a political stability. We encourage foreign direct investment. We succeeded to establish money, money foreign businesses here in Somaliland. DB World has invested US$500 million almost to the port of Berbera. It's a huge one. This is exactly what we have in Somaliland. And peace and political stability is the key to everything when it comes to businesses, when it comes to engaging with people and the existence of the people in the country as well. So this is what we have. Political stability, democracy, free market economy. Those are the basis we have. And of course we are trying to engage more to the world. I think our relationship with Israel is going to help. We have also a good relationship with Taiwan. Taiwan is quite distant. And it's not the relationship in which we have. Taiwan is also a deep relationship. Having Taiwan, having Israel trying to engage with the Americans and other European countries, those we share value, the like minded countries will also help us to engage that our free market will engage those countries very soon. And we are preparing that. We're building our capacity and this is going to help. I think Israeli relationship will very much help because Israeli people are very open minded people. Our culture and the culture of Israel is very similar when it comes to trade and investment and the courage of taking riskies. We take risks. Israeli investment and Israeli business communities, they always take risks. So I think we can make is something out of this.
- [21:39]
A
Is it fair to say that you are becoming something of a linchpin of an interesting new alliance you mentioned the Emirati DP world investment in Berbera Port. Berbera Port's capacity I think has been tripled just in the last couple of years or five years. It's a world class port now and being at the Horn of Africa is significant. India is extremely interested, talks about it openly and the Israelis. And of course there is that big question of the Bab El Mandab Straits, the Houthis, the Horn of Africa, generally piracy as you mentioned. And so there's so many different elements that are all kind of converging on this unbelievably strategically placed and as you said, with tremendous resources and stability and a willingness to, to expand and grow and looking for that. There are people out there now talking about a Berbera axis around this port, around your port, around your coastline, around the strategic importance of it. Is that overstating it or do you think that that's what's happening, that there's a real alliance being built by like minded countries?
- [22:52]
B
You know, I just want to say two things together. One thing is about Berbera port and of course the regional dynamics that is also going on. The port of Berbera is central to Somalia's strategic positioning. Located along the Gulf of Aden near the Bab el Mandep, we have the Bab el Mandep near Pai. And we have the Mediterranean not far away from us as well. We have the Red Sea, we have the Gulf of Aden, we have the Indian Ocean next to us as well. It sits the intersection of a major global trade routes. It has become a key logistical hub that is Berpra linking regional economies, particularly through partnership with countries such as Ethiopia and United Arab Emirates. For now. At the same time we are fully aware of the evolving security environment in the Red Sea. Somalan's approach is measured and consistent to safeguard maritime routes, maintain internal stability and avoid unnecessary entanglement in regional conflict, while remaining prepared to respond to emerging risks. So this we understand also what's happening in the region. And our economy is very, very much rely on that, on that boot. Because I told you now that 9 might be 98 or 99% of what we consume is imported from purpose and from outcoasts. And we want also that to be very secure. So we want also a secure Gulf of Aden, secure Red Sea area. And we are also engaging with the Americans, with the Israelis, with every party to make sure that this area will be very much secured. So we understand also the regional dynamics and the potential of economic development and trade in this region and Berber's importance also. So we have to balance everything at the same time.
- [24:47]
A
Are you worried in that regard? The Houthis have already issued a public threat to Somaliland. Don't allow, I don't know what Israeli foothold. I forget the exact details, but this is probably more than once. You coordinate with the Israelis, you coordinate with the Americans. On the question of security, Iran has a bunch of proxies. The Houthis in Yemen were right next door to you and they have begun conflicts before and there's been, you know, a naval shooting war with the Americans, Israeli bombardment in that part of Yemen. Are you worried this will spill over into you? And what kinds of military capabilities does Somaliland have if that kind of a thing happens?
- [25:28]
B
Somalia is a very, very small country. We know that. And we are small in size. We're only 6.5 million people, but located one of the most strategic areas in the world. We want our seas and land to be very secure. Of course, there are lots of things that we can work on. Countries like the US and Israelis and the Marathis and countries that we engage more. At present, there are no formal agreement regarding the establishment of foreign military bases in Somaliland. That said, dialogue with partners on security cooperation is both natural and necessary given the strategic importance of our location. Somaliland already contributed to maritime security and counter piracy efforts. There is no single incident of piracy in Somaliland since when the piracy in the Gulf of Aden started. That was 2005, 2006. No single incidents of piracy, because piracy always comes from the land. So we make sure that our land is secure. Our country is very peaceful. There's no people taking arms and going to the sea to kidnap and hijack, you know, tankeries and international shipping in this area. Somalan already contributes to Maritime security and counterparty. That's the reason why I'm saying that any future arrangement would be carefully considered. If we just want to build relationships with countries that could be carefully considered, aligned with our national interests and oriented toward enhancing regional stability. So we have to also balance what's going to happen. But we of course worry about what's happening everywhere in our region because that is affecting us, that is increasing the inflation in Somaliland. So we have to make sure that this area is very, very secure. And we are engaging like minded countries to make sure that the whole area is peaceful and secure and that ships can access easily in Babulbande Banda, Virginia. And we are contributing and helping that area to be very, very secure.
- [27:37]
A
Thank you so much for your time. One final question. What strikes me or what struck me at the very beginning of this conversation of the Israeli Somaliland conversation when it became public, was that you're a Muslim country and we are a Jewish majority country. And that's a tremendous source of tension in large parts of the Muslim world, in large parts of the Arab world. And there is the conflict with the Palestinians and there is the conflict with Iran and Hezbollah. And there are so many reasons that for identity reasons there would be this gulf with any Arab country, any Middle Eastern country, any Muslim country. And yet when Israelis have gone to visit Somaliland, a few officials have done so, the foreign minister has done so. But I've talked to people who have done so. They were greeted incredibly warmly. There's a sense that it is well over 90% Muslim. I mean, the vast majority of the population are Sunni Muslim. And the sense that they can have a relationship with Israel is very natural. It's very easy. There isn't a gap as we see in some of the countries around us. We might have an alliance with the King of Jordan in many ways, but. But the people of Jordan, according to polls, are very much anti Israeli. And it goes beyond specific conflicts or specific years.
- [29:11]
B
Yeah.
- [29:12]
A
Why is the friendship between Israelis and Somalilanders easy? And that's it. That's my final question. Where, where does that cultural ability come from? You've built many bridges in the Arab world, the Muslim world, but we're weird, we're harder, aren't we? Why is that so easy?
- [29:27]
B
You know, I just want to tell you before I answer the question, I just want to share with you when we were negotiating and discussing the Israelis with our relationship, because we are going there, they're coming here and we have been communicating for more than 12 years, 12 months. And I was all the time telling the Israelis if, if you recognize. Because they were very much skeptical about the recognition of Somaliland in the first place. They see that if we recognize you might be our recognition. My attract, you know, extremism in, in the region. Some of the people of Somalila might say no to this recognition because of the issues that you have now been. The things that you have been explaining now because we have Muslim majority. I think 100% of the Somaliland people are Muslims. I don't see, you know, in Somaliland, lots of everybody I see in Somaliland for in my entire life was a Muslim. So I can say 99.99% of the people of Somaliland are Muslims. And they were asking the question of if we recognize you, it might be this will this applies to you? And I was saying this, no. If Israel recognized Somaliland, you will see we have a 6.5 million people in Somaliland. That's our population. Once you recognize them, you will see Israeli flag being waved in the cities of. In Somaliland. And I was just comparing your relationship with country Muslim countries. For example, the uae, there is a government government. They signed the Abraham Accords, Bahrain have signed the Arama Courts, Morocco as well. But it's always the government to government. Most of the time Somaliland is. We want these people to people relationship not only government to government, Somalia. Now when I was explaining the issue, I say, oh look, you will see if you recognize Somaliland not along. You know, there's. Don't talk about the instability. And this will create more cohesion within the people of Somaliland. In the first place. People will be very much united and the country will be stronger. And you will see Israeli flags being waved and your people will be very much welcomed and you will get the hearts and minds of 6.5 million people. The Israeli government, the people of Israel. And this is exactly what happened. There was only one Israeli in Somaliland at the time of the recognition. He was an engineer. He came Somaliland to study about, you know, because we have lack of our, our. We have scarcity of water in Somaliland. And you know, Israel is very much advanced on that. He was here at the time. He was in Berbera. People didn't know him. It was just when he came, he said, I'm, I'm. I'm from Malta. And by the time the recognition came, uh, then I called him on the phone. I said, where are you now? He said on my way to Argeza, about half an hour, I'll be arriving in Hargis. I Said, come to the president office, I'm waiting you there. And he came to the president office. And I said to everybody who was around, this is an Israeli guy. And people were trying to hug him, to greet him calmly and very much welcoming him. So he was the luckiest guy from Israel at the time because he was the only person in, in the country at the time. So we, of course, people of Somalia are Muslims, but that doesn't mean we engage the Americans. We engage the, you know, the Taiwanese or not, majority of them are not Christians. Why not the Israelis? What's the difference between Israel and Taiwanese? What's the difference between the Americans and the Christians? That we always engage. And the Jewish people, they recognize us in 1960, again, they recognize us, the first country that recognize Somaliland. So it's not about the religion. What we are building is a relationship. We are not taking the Jewish religion. We're not, they're not taking, we're not going to inform them to become an Islam. This is a relationship between two countries and two peoples. So I what the Somaliland people, this is the way the Somaliland, from Somaliland's perspective, when you talk to the elites of Somaliland, well, also you talk to the ordinary citizens of Somaliland, they will tell you there's no hostility between Somaliland and the Israelis. We want to engage with them, we want to trade with them, we want to hold, we want to host them. They want us to build our capacity of knowing how we have resources. We can share these resources with the Israeli, with the Israelis. They also can share and transfer the knowledge to our people. Education, health, water, those kind of things. So it's about the engagement. It's not about religion. Nothing's about religion. Every country's, you know, countries engage always on interests. So this is exactly what we're building. And our people are not ignorant people. They are very clever, they're very smart people. They understand the context of politics. They then understand that the relationship between Israel and Somaliland is nothing to do with religion. That is the ordinary citizen of Somaliland. And we want to build this relationship. And you will witness that this relationship would be one of the best spiritual relationships in the world. We want to strengthen and deepen the relationship in a way that no one can imagine.
- [35:13]
A
Ambassador Dr. Mohammad Haji, thank you so, so very much for agreeing to this interview, for joining us. And I'll also leave in the show notes the last episode about Somaliland's history, the case for recognition of Somaliland that we did back when the Israelis recognized Somaliland. Thank you so much for joining us. I can't wait to see that relationship and visiting someday. It's supposedly very beautiful.
- [35:37]
B
Thank you very much. Really appreciate that. Thank you for having me, Sam.