117: The Palestinian insider who thinks Hamas is losing, with Samer Sinijlawi

Summary

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Ask Haviv Anything – Episode 117

The Palestinian Insider Who Thinks Hamas Is Losing, with Samer Sinijlawi
Date: May 20, 2026
Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Guest: Samer Sinijlawi (Palestinian political activist, Chairman of the Jerusalem Development Fund, former Fatah youth leader)

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Episode Overview

In this compelling episode, host Haviv Rettig Gur sits down with Samer Sinijlawi, a prominent Palestinian political activist, to explore the current state of Palestinian politics, the shifting dynamics in Gaza, and the prospects for Israeli-Palestinian cooperation. Sinijlawi, with decades of experience across both Fatah and grassroots activism, delivers a provocative assessment: Hamas is losing its grip, Palestinian society is changing, and there is emerging space for a new moderate leadership. The conversation probes the implications of recent local elections, the limited but impactful nature of Israeli-Palestinian dialogue, and why, despite deep trauma, both communities have reasons for cautious hope.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Samer Sinijlawi’s Background and Perspective

• [02:52] Sinijlawi recounts his upbringing in Jerusalem, where exposure to religious and cultural diversity shaped his identity. The First Intifada, jail time, and eventual rise in Fatah youth leadership forced him to confront the deeper realities of the conflict.
  • “The first Intifada... gave us a new identity, the identity of this conflict.” (Sinijlawi, [03:38])
• In prison, he learned Hebrew and began imagining dialogue with Israelis—believing resolving the conflict requires deeply understanding “the other side.”

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The Importance of Dialogue & Mutual Humanity

• [08:20] Sinijlawi emphasizes face-to-face engagement as a prerequisite for resolving the conflict:
  • “Nothing is more important than having a platform where [Palestinians and Israelis]... can meet and start talking and start understanding.” ([08:28])
• He meets hundreds of Palestinians and Israelis weekly, noticing that genuine dialogue uncovers a core of shared humanity obscured by surface images of violence and distrust.
  • “At a certain depth we can find a reservoir of mutual humanity, common humanity.” ([08:58])
• He believes it is realistic, not utopian, for the conflict to end—given the right conditions and enough communication and trust-building.

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Messaging and Responsibility in Communication

• [10:41] Sinijlawi outlines the responsibility of Palestinian interlocutors to communicate in language Israelis can hear:
  • “Lecturing the Israelis about international law and human rights is something that does not help anybody.”
  • “To deliver a message, you need to set an example... This is the best way you can create a listening attitude at the other side.”
• He contends Palestinians uniquely can convince Israelis there is an authentic desire for peace, equating Palestinian “freedom” with Israeli “security.”
  • “I need to give security to them in order to be able to receive freedom from them. This is as simple as it is.” ([12:00])
• If a moderate Palestinian leadership could speak such a language credibly, it could create a “Sadat moment,” shifting Israeli perception profoundly, as happened with Egypt.

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Is Hamas Still the Core of Palestinian Politics?

• [15:29] Sinijlawi acknowledges Hamas is part of the political landscape, but argues its real support base is much lower than many believe—perhaps around 20–25%, especially diluted in Gaza itself since October 2023.
  • “Hamas could control something between 20 to 25% of the Palestinian society... less than 10% in Gaza, around 30% in the West Bank.” ([16:09])
• He insists the current struggle is not Israeli vs. Palestinian per se, but “moderates on both sides against radicals on both sides.”
  • “Radicals... are a minority, but they still have a very loud voice.” ([16:21])
• The Palestinian majority, he argues, is hungry for an alternative to both Hamas and the corrupt Fatah of Mahmoud Abbas.

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Developments in Gaza: Hamas' Power and Local Elections

• [21:10] Sinijlawi claims evidence that Hamas is seeking to relinquish direct control of Gaza:
  • In recent local elections in Deir al-Balah, Hamas allowed non-Hamas affiliated lists to win and transferred authority to them, even providing police to secure the process.
  • “Hamas wants to end its regime in Gaza because it’s becoming a burden. They are not able to function, they are not able to pay salaries, they are in debt.” ([21:51])
• [23:25] He explains that the primary obstacle to a new Gaza administration is not Hamas’ refusal to leave, but Israel’s insistence that Hamas must disarm before any Palestinian authority enters—a “slogan” more than a practical standard.
  • “Disarmament is always a process. It is never an event.” ([25:26])
  • Sinijlawi contends the handover could happen quickly if the political will existed on all sides.

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Can Disarmament Actually Work?

• [27:38] Sinijlawi states Hamas is prepared to transfer authority and weapons to a new administration, referencing documents provided to the US:
  • “They can in one week transfer all the civil authority... including the police, the internal security, and all the guns.”
• He compares it to Israeli struggles with organized crime: even mature democracies never completely “solve” gun violence, but establish frameworks to contain it through legitimate authority.
  • “It is always a challenge... It is a process, it needs to start.” ([31:20])
• True closure, in his view, requires a regime change and international support, not permanent Israeli military occupation.

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The Trump Plan and Regional Opportunities

• [36:56] Sinijlawi expresses rare Palestinian enthusiasm for President Trump’s engagement and peace plan, emphasizing that Trump’s leverage over Israel is unique and timely:
  • “Trump is such an opportunity for Palestinians because Trump has... massive leverage over the Israelis.” (Haviv, [41:05])
  • The Trump plan, backed by the UN, would rebuild Gaza and foster normalization, and Palestinians risk missing a historic window if they do not seize this moment.

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Local Elections: Data Point for Change

• [43:15] Samer details the surprising results of local elections:
  • New rules required candidates to recognize previous PLO-Israel agreements—forcing Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other radicals to boycott, yet turnout was still high (53%).
  • “So let us say usually 25% of any society will not care of any elections... What’s left for Hamas is 22%.” ([45:03])
  • Anti-Abbas independents and Fatah reformers swept the elections even in the West Bank, signaling a profound desire for new leadership.

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The Case Against Abbas — and the Call for a New Leadership

• [47:01] Sinijlawi is scathing about Mahmoud Abbas’ “uselessness” and his attempts to establish a succession for his son.
  • “What kind of moderation is this? A person that has zero sensitivity to the needs of his people, zero sensitivity to the internal rights of his own people.” ([47:21])
• Samer calls for national Palestinian elections as the only way to defeat both radicalism (Hamas) and entrenched corruption (Abbas).
  • “This is the only way to produce a Palestinian leadership that is able to change the dynamics of relationships of our people with all the neighboring countries, with Israel.” ([48:23])

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Final Reflections: Partnership Over Conflict

• [49:30]
  • “Usually I have some conversations where I ask a question… why do you think that we Palestinians are important for the whole world? … The correct answer, Haviv, is that we are not important, not for anybody. The importance is the Jewish question for the whole world, the Jewish presence, the Jewish history. And we are lucky we find ourselves in conflict with them. So we became important…” (Sinijlawi, [49:39])
  • If the paradigm shifts from conflict to partnership, the influence and benefit for both Israelis and Palestinians would be unprecedented.
  • “There is no country, no president, no entity in the world that can say no to the Israelis and Palestinians if they agree, cooperate, if they start working together...” ([50:10])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dialogue:
  “At a certain depth we can find a reservoir of mutual humanity, common humanity.”
  — Sinijlawi ([08:58])

• On Leadership and Message:
  “We Palestinians, we do possess a very important advantage... the power of convincing the Israelis... We are the only ones that can touch the hearts and the minds of the Israelis.”
  — Sinijlawi ([11:38])

• On Hamas’ Diminishing Role:
  “Hamas wants to end its regime in Gaza because it’s becoming a burden.”
  — Sinijlawi ([21:51])

• On the Palestinian Vision:
  “We need to work hard to change this relation from conflict to partnership... It is our obligation to our coming generations to change their lives and forever on both sides.”
  — Sinijlawi ([50:10])

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Important Timestamps

• [02:52] Samer Sinijlawi’s personal story and Fatah involvement
• [08:28] Importance of Israeli-Palestinian dialogue
• [10:41] How Palestinians must communicate with Israelis
• [15:29] True extent of Hamas’ actual influence
• [21:10] The transfer of local authority in Gaza after elections
• [23:25] The issue of disarmament and the “Trump Plan” obstacles
• [27:38] Why and how Hamas is ready to transfer authority
• [36:56] Regional opportunities and the urgency of the Trump Plan
• [43:15] Data from recent local Palestinian elections
• [47:01] Sinijlawi’s criticism of Abbas and call for leadership change
• [49:30] Final reflection on turning conflict into partnership

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Episode Flow & Tone

The conversation is direct, occasionally raw, but rich with personal experience and hard-earned insight. Sinijlawi speaks with pragmatic optimism, refusing to sugarcoat Palestinian or Israeli faults. Haviv occasionally plays the skeptical Israeli everyman, pushing for clarifications that address the visceral anxieties on his own side.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a rare, data-driven window into Palestinian political realities and hopes, challenging common assumptions about Hamas' popularity and the potential for Israeli-Palestinian partnership. Sinijlawi believes the time is ripe for a new, constructive political era, and urges both societies to seize a fleeting window for historic progress.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi everybody. Welcome to a new episode of Ask Khaviv Anything. This is going to be a very interesting one. We have Samil Sinjilawi here, a Palestinian political activist, chairman of the Jerusalem Development Fund. He has a BA in Business administration from Birzait, a master's in Conflict resolution from the Hebrew University, and he's a man who sat in prison for five years during the first Intifada and after his release was elected head of the Fatah youth. Longtime Fatah activist, head of international and Israeli relations on the Fatah Supreme Committee. We're going to get into some of the really interesting things that Sameer has to say about this particular moment. His op EDS have been published in the New York Times, Newsweek, Le Figaro, Toronto Star, the Atlantic, and in Israeli papers in Hebrew like Yisrael Hayom. Before we get into it, I want to tell you this episode was sponsored by an individual who asked to remain anonymous, but asked me to share this Beit Issi Shapiro is Israel's leading innovator in the field of disabilities, developing life changing services and solutions for children and adults with disabilities, including injured soldiers and their families. Each year they impact over half a million people in Israel and around the world through direct services, sharing knowledge, training professionals. For more than 45 years they've been creating solutions where none existed, opening doors for individuals and helping build a more inclusive society for all. You can learn [e-mail] il that's B E I T I S S I E.org il and if you add a slash Eng at the end you'll get the English website. We're going to put that link in the show Notes. Thank you to the sponsor. It is an absolutely marvelous cause. Bethesi Shapiro is well known among Israel. I also would like everyone to join our Patreon and subscribe to our substack if you like what we do here. If you're interested in asking the questions that guide the topics that we talk about on this podcast, you can do that at the Patreon and at the Substack. We're real thriving communities have actually gotten underway. We share information, we share resources, we ask questions, we challenge each other. And once a month on each forum there's a monthly live stream where I answer your questions live. Join us at patreon.com askhavivenything or khabivgur.substack.com those links will also be in the show Notes. Samer, how are you?

[B]

Fine, thanks. Havid, thanks for hosting me.

[A]

Thanks for coming on. Let's Start with your story. Lay that out for us, the first Intifada story, your rise through the ranks of Fantach. And then we'll get into this moment that you have a lot to say about.

[B]

Well, I had a very typical, normal childhood. Was born as a Palestinian Muslim in the Old City, went to a Christian school. Lived a lot of diversity and tolerance in my childhood because, I mean, I was very happy to see my day starts with a Christian prayer in the school and then ends with a Muslim prayer with my grandfather and Aksa Mosque. People talking different languages, having different names. It meant that I felt this is my identity. Yet the first Intifada was able to get into the surface story that has not been very obvious, which is there is a conflict the area. There is a conflict in the city. And automatically it invades you from inside. I think it has invaded my generation from both sides. It gave us a new identity, the identity of this conflict. So started throwing stones. I went to jail five years. I lost my classmate in one of the incidents where we throw stones at an Israeli bus. He was shot and killed. And it was few months altogether. But it was a very dramatic change because the whole environment was changing. All of the sudden we, the young generation, the kids were the ones who were acting as sovereigns. We decide when is strike, when the shops close, when there is education day or not. We decide which streets to close. So we felt a lot of power in our hands. And we were, in a way, by our instinct, trying to serve a cause that maybe we did not still think about all of its details. But then the jail is another experience where, you know, I started learning Hebrew. I started talking to the guards there. And it helped me a lot when I went out under my title in the Fateh Yut, to be determined that I want to meet those in my generation on the other side and establish contacts with the Labor Youth, then the likud youth in 96. And then I continue to be the guy who leads this kind of dialogue within the framework of Fateha. I became the international coordinator, the coordinator for international Israeli file for the Fatah Supreme Committee. At the time it was. This committee was headed by. It's the highest committee in Fatah, was headed by Marwan in the West Bank, Marwan Barwoti. And I spent all these years into diving deeper and deeper into trying to explore the other side, to learn the other side and to communicate with other side. It is obvious that it will be very difficult to understand any conflict in particular this conflict if you are not able to See it in depth from the eyes of the other side. This is a must condition and you cannot understand that conflict from the eyes of the other side. If you read reports, media or academic, all research papers, all books, you need to have this face to face engagement. You need to have this personal experience of talking to a person in a closed room, in an open environment, in a conference, in an interview, in the media, these kind of contents. There is nothing more important to Palestinians Israelis than having a platform where they. A safe environment where they can meet and start talking and start discussing and start understanding. And it works every time there is such a meeting. I meet an average of 300 Israelis a week. I meet an average of 400, 500 Palestinians a week. Especially in the last period that I was involved in the local elections, supporting and sponsoring some lists. You can see that despite there is a very ugly image on the surface where we are looking at each other's. Most of the Israelis are seeing the Palestinians from the surface. And on the surface they will find the 7th of October they will find image that frightens them. Palestinians always also judge the Israelis from the surface. And it is also an ugly image. There is all the wrongdoings there, there is all the hard feelings there, there is the hatred there is. It's not convenient. But when you have the possibility to dive a little bit deeper, start understanding the other side, you can easily come to a conclusion that at a certain depth we can find a reservoir of mutual humanity, common humanity. Nobody can deny the Palestinians their humanity. Nobody can deny the Israelis their humanity. It is just. We are not able to discover that part of the other side. And when we are able to discover that part and connect at that level of depth, this kind of common humanity will rescue us. That's why I am confident now as a Palestinian that we can bring this conflict to an end. It is doable. It's not illusion, it's not fantasy. Not believing it is the fantasy. But it took me 38 years of a lot of meetings and in depth exploration that created that confidence and that optimism, which I don't call it optimism, I call it realism.

[A]

Let me dive right into. Astonishes me that there's so little conversation between Israelis and Palestinians, so little learning about each other between Israelis and Palestinians. When you walk on, you talk to Israelis and it causes this real splash through the Israeli conversation because there's a Palestinian talking and by the way, in very good Hebrew, so there's. There's not enough of it. It is so shocking to all of us when there is Any kind of of that conversation I want to get into starting with Gaza, because you mentioned that you were involved with some lists that ran in local elections that that includes Indir Al Balakh in Gaza. You said on Israeli television on January 27, the Palestinian people is being born anew in these very days. What did you mean? What is the new birth the Palestinian people is experiencing?

[B]

Yes. Let me first of all add some few words on the issue of this kind of interaction, talking. Sometimes when I bring this discussion locally among my fellow Palestinians, the first reaction would be that Israelis don't want to listen. Well, here I think listening might not be the obligation of the receiver. It's more the responsibility of those who talk. You cannot talk a language with the Israelis that does not resonate into their ears, because lecturing the Israelis about international law and human rights is something that does not help anybody. So picking up the right language, understanding more the conflict, and then addressing the issues in a very responsible way, where you simply don't lecture, you assume responsibility, you admit mistakes at your own side. And then when you want to deliver a message, you need to set an example. This is the first, this is the best way you can create a listening attitude at the other side. Now, we Palestinians, we do possess a very important advantage. Let me say weapon, let me say power that nobody else in the world has. It's the power of convincing the Israelis we are the only ones that can touch the hearts and the minds of the Israelis and convince them that there is a need and a request for peace on the Palestinians and that we understand that this peace, which is for us between brackets, freedom, is based on providing them security. This the solution for all our problems are two security and peace. So I want to give it to them in order to be able to receive it from them. I need to give security to them in order to be able to receive freedom from them. This is as simple as it is. And yes, it is amazing. I was also always happy, very happy to see that it works. Every time you said there were waves. Yes, there are waves, Splashes a lot of debate that opens inside the Israeli community whenever a good message comes from the Palestinian side. And you can imagine when this kind of language will become the former Palestinian government, somebody that has an agency on behalf of the Palestinians to speak this language with the Israelis, it will create our own Sadat moment with the Israelis, it will shift the Israelis 180 degrees in hours. And that has happened in the late 70s when Sadat visited the Knesset. The mistrust and the hatred between Israelis and Egyptians was maybe higher than it is now between Israelis and Palestinians. But then it shifted 180 degrees. Suddenly Saddam became the hero and suddenly everybody opened the doors and a right wing government led by Begu brought the peace. So we need to fund and to work and to create our own. Sadat Moon Gaza I don't want to

[A]

stop a sentence that begins with Gaza. I want to get into Gaza. But the Israeli lesson from Gaza and the Israeli lesson from listening to Hamas, which we listen to Hamas more than we listen to any other Palestinian group, Hamas speaks to us. And what it has to say to us is this is eternal war until one side is dead and gone. And of course God's on our side. So it's not going to be us, is there? You know what? Let's get into Gaza and tackle this on different sides as we walk through the issues, because everything you're saying sounds miraculous and redemptive. But isn't Hamas Palestinian politics right now?

[B]

Well, yes, it is, of course, part of Palestinian politics. The question if it is the mainstream or it is a radical on the side, I think Hamas could control something between 20 to 25% of the Palestinian society, but it is not demonstrated. Maybe there is a level of confusion on the Palestinian side that does not allow a current of a moderate current to raise up and stand up and introduce itself in a way that reflects better the Palestinian people. And I think this is incoming between us and the Israelis. The radicals on both sides, they are minority, but they still have a very loud voice. Or the other side, they can give the impression that they are dominating, which is not true. I don't agree that the hilltop youth in Israel represents the whole Israel. There are a minority, but they are very noisy. And in a way or another they have got advantage of a system that their representatives, their patrons became able to facilitate some kind of support from certain part of the state, that it looks to the Palestinians as if this is the state of Israel and this is the people of Israel, which is not to. The conflict now is not Israeli, Palestinian. The conflict now is moderates on both sides against radicals on both sides. And moderation is responsibility. It doesn't matter here, left or right, it is responsibility because there are lots of people on the right political side of the map who are very responsible and I consider them moderate. Moderate is taking responsibility of everybody. So we need to be careful in judging the Palestinians on things that are not really reflecting what they are. Hamas today, if it goes to elections, if it is allowed to go to elections, I believe and I'm totally responsible on my words because I have assessed this thoroughly and carefully and deeply. It will be something between 20 to 22% of the Palestinian society now less than 10% in Gaza, around 30% in the west pack a total of maybe 22% the max. The majority of the Palestinians are Fidel from the type of regime in Gaza that was led by Hamas and the type of regiment the west flag that is read by the current President Abbas is not also. He's not. Most of the Israelis fell in the trap that it's either Abbas or Hamas. It's not. It's neither of them. It's not Abbas, it's not Hamas. Because also Palestinians are fed up from the corruption that was institutionalized over them by Abbas. And they are desperate to find the third a more moderate, more energetic leadership that can hold responsibility and can open a new era of better dynamics of relation with Israelis. Currently, we are very much proud that there is a lot of solidarity around the world. But this kind of solidarity that we are receiving now from wherever it starts, in any streets of any capital all over the world is more of a political theatre. It does not change the reality. The only way that we can change the reality that we are facing the difficulties is by trying to create partnership with the Israeli society, convincing 51% of the Israeli society that a political horizon is a win win situation and they have a partner for this. On the Palestinians we are Aviv in the pro Hamas era. It's obvious today Hamas has allowed the conference of Fatah. Fatah is holding its congress today in four different places. In the headquarters of the President in Ramallah, in the embassy of the PLO in Cairo, in a conference hall in Lebanon and in Al Azhar University in Gaza. Hamas has allowed it. Hamas has provided its police to secure the parameters of the conference. If anybody have thought that this could happen four years ago, it could have been, you know, just illusion and dreaming. So in a way or another, Hamad is signaling that they want to give up their power in Gaza. They want to transfer the regime to somebody else. Anybody that can claim it. It could be Ngang, the National Committee for Administration of Gaza that is formed and now is temporary based in Cairo. Or it could be the pa, they don't care. In the local elections, Independent or semi independent or Fatah affiliated or Fatah opposition affiliated lists won. That election. Was on 25 April, less than one week. In an official ceremony, Hamas transferred all the local power in Darballah, which was pure net Hamas regime. It's the Only city in Gaza that kept its shape because there was no ground operations from the Israeli army during the war in the Ridbara. So it hosts around 800,000 people there. It's the original 150,000 inhabitants, plus all the redeployed. Around 700,000 redeployed Palestinians from north of Gaza that are living in tents in the river land. Hamas wants to end its regime in Gaza because it's becoming a burden. They are not able to function, they are not able to pay salaries, they are in debt.

[A]

Wait, walk us through this slowly and carefully because to most of the world it looks as though that's not true. In other words, there's the 20 point plan, there's all the money that everybody wants to dump on Gaza. There's the rebuilding that they're planning to start. Hamas controls half of Gaza, took it over immediately, won't pull back, and we're hearing from the Israelis a new willingness to go to war. And so what do you mean Hamas wants to. Indira Balakh had handed over the reins after the local elections. Maybe that's cover, but maybe there's too many data points to ignore at this point. What do you mean by Hamas wants to. Why would it want to give up power and what would that look like?

[B]

Can you give me a reason why ngag, the National Committee for the Administration of Gaza that is part of President Trump plan is not entering Gaza until now? Why does Israel blocked its. Its entrance?

[A]

Why does Israel block the entrance?

[B]

Because Israel says. Well, Israel is, is the Prime Minister of Israel. Prime Minister of Israel. He insists that they cannot enter before the disarmament of Hamas.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And this is a slogan.

[A]

And the Trump administration has backed that position?

[B]

Well, I'm not sure, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if the Trump administration have backed this opposition. I am not sure if the Trump administration. Publicly they have said nothing. Okay. Publicly they have said nothing. In my opinion, NGAC should enter Gaza and NGAC should receive all the authorities that Hamas are offering. It's not secret what they are offering. They are offering, according to a report by the New York Times on 21 April, they are offering all the civil authority, including the police, the internal security and its allies, and the power to implement, to reinforce law, which means they are telling us, bring these guns, let them be the sovereign and then let them force the disarm. If they find a Hamas fighter with a gun, let them arrest him. This is any kind of disarmament all over the world in history, it is always a process. It is never an event, and I think Prime Minister of Israel knows it very well. But it's an election year. He does not want to have this kind of progress. It serves him and it serves his coalition and it serves his political lifeline. To continue war is in his best interest. I think lots of Israelis will agree with me. So here we need to be careful. We need to understand something. First of all, I'm not the advocate of Hamas. I am a voice that has condemned their atrocities on the 7th of October publicly. Maybe the only voice from the Palestinian side with political profile. And I keep criticizing and I think the regime should end immediately. But in this particular moment, the ones who are delaying the progress of the Trump plan is the Prime Minister of Israel. If England enters, it will be able to take power from Hamas. And if.

[A]

And they will hand over the guns and there won't be a separate Hamas militia that attacks anybody it wants to attack and enforces its will, even unofficially. In other words, the fear, as I understand it from the Israelis is it's all going to be a veneer. What actually will be happening is that Hamas in the background, knowing it can kill anyone it wants to kill, will make sure that everyone does what it tells them to do, even if the name is different, even if there's some guns belonging to some police that works under Ankai and not actually under Hamas, but that Hamas will never actually relinquish control. You have been, I should say, I should tell people, I should confirm it from my side of the aisle, massive and public and consistent critic of Hamas and blaming Hamas for a lot of what has happened. You've criticized Israel. I don't want to get you in hot waters with a Palestinian. I'm just saying, you genuinely, from where you stand, think Hamas actually can be disarmed in this process.

[B]

Definitely, yes. And I am responsible on this. And I have copies of documents that were transferred from Hamas to the American team, confirming everything that I have told you. They can in one week transfer all the civil authority, including 50 centers of income, to the regime, taxations and others. The police, the internal security and all the guns, everything that they have inherited in 2007 from the PA, they will transfer it. So worst case scenario, it will be a similar model of the west bank, where there is a national regime that is enforcing law and still Hamas anywhere. If they try to do something, somebody is controlling it. Let me tell you something. If the Prime Minister of Israel would insist that he should have this argument of Hamas immediately, why doesn't he start this in the Os I mean, is it only disarmament is only applicable in Gaza. Hamas disarmament is only important in Gaza. Why doesn't he stand the job in the Waslam? Because this is illusion. This because he is already trying for 30 years. Because it is a process that does not stop. It should start and it continues. It's not a temporary event, a one day event. It is a process. You cannot say I will freeze everything in Gaza until they fully disarmed. Disarmament never ends. It is a battle. It continues. It needs a lot of efforts. Ben Gurion has activated the Altelena option after the independence of Israel. And he himself has knocked down the Altelena ship because he was so careful to maintain the sovereignty of the state and the rule of one law and one Armga could be.

[A]

You're saying a Palestinian government in Gaza will be able to do what the Israeli army won't be able to do? Because all Gazans will be behind it. Because Hamas won't be able to explain. Because Hamas itself is saddled with. And this is another thing I want to get to the state of Gaza under Hamas. Hamas is bankrupt. And you think all of those forces will mean a real disarmament going forward?

[B]

Well, definitely it needs the Palestinian address that takes the responsibility. It can never be done by an Israeli. Do you think that the Israeli army has missed something and not do it in Gaza in the last almost three years? Do you think that they could have done something else and they did not do it? Why didn't they achieve full disarmament? Because it is a process, okay, they started. It doesn't end tomorrow. It's not subject to the will of anybody. An organization like Hamas. And it's important for me to explain things because we need to think in a correct way to be able to take correct decisions. Such organization with tens of thousands of fighters who have possessed officially from Hamas for tens of years. For several years with the collapse of the organization. Now Hamas is not the same Hamas that we knew. In 6th of October 2023 it have received a very massive hit. There is no sentinel command now. It is not functioning as it used to be. I'm speaking in particular on the military. Every one of them that has a gun now he believes this is his. It's his honor, his commanders, his partners in the structure that he was organized in. And no more there. Maybe he's alone. Maybe he was part of the people. It is a big mess. And this guy worth $7,000. And you want to convince somebody that has been in the Tunnels for three years that has none of his family Go and you know, surrender your gun and you will have no compensation. And it is not easy. We can say, we can put it as a slogan. It needs a responsible Palestinian address to enter. Take whatever they are offering now in public and start pushing, working hard, taking hard decisions, very tough decisions, painful decisions sometimes in order to increase the level of enforcement of the law. Until we have done the I want to say I'm happy if Gaza will be in a similar level of control to Egypt or Jordan or even Israel. In Israel, if you have the organized crime families and gangs that Israel is not able to do anything with them, not control, there are not college, there are not stop. They are killing almost two Israeli citizens a day until now. So it is always a challenge for any proper authority, even an authority that is functioning in a very democratic, healthy situation with all the instruments and infrastructure and the capabilities and the assets needed to fight a crime or terror or illegal act. It is a process. It needs to start all. What I am advocating for is that start point should be entering in gang. And I think, I believe as a Palestinian that showed a lot of sympathy with the Israeli victims. I visited the Bibas family and I asked for their pardon on behalf of my people. I know the pain at the other side. I know the anger, I know the trouble. But I think it is very important not for the Israeli society to close the account with Gaza. It cannot continue to be an open account for every Israeli who lost his life on 7 October 70 Palestinians paid with their lives in Gaza. I think we should reach to a level today and say okay, we settled data. Now let's look in a strategy that will bring hundred percent stability and security for Israel. Maybe if I want to talk now about a language of bringing back life to Gaza or ending the suffer of the dozens today that are mostly living in plastic tents. Maybe well in Washington D.C. few people will care, but when I say they listen to me. This step is an investment in strategic security for Israel. Everybody will listen. I think a continuation of the presence of the Israeli arm over 50% of Gaza 4, 5 battalions that are currently spreading in more than 50% of Gaza. This is not the arrangements that can guarantee security for Israel. The only arrangement that can guarantee security for Israel is to enable a complete regime change in Gaza, to open again for the possibility of reconstructing Gaza and to place only one battalion on the borders of Gaza instead of four battalions over 50% of Gaza with the proper park. We are always lucky to have President Trump and his engagement and his dedications, and I think he's sincere and into trying to achieve peace in the Middle East. We need to use this kind of dedication from an American president that is holding the responsibility, putting his name and leading the process. We should trust him and allow him to continue the process. He has almost two years left. It's not a long time. And by the way, the Trump plan ends according to the Security council resolution in 31st of December of 2027, six months passed. We have 18 months left. There is not a lot of time and this is a very precious time that we don't want to lose. We want to use this time in the best way and confident that the Israeli public or the Israeli people who were able to open a new chapter with the Germans after the Holocaust, they can open a new chapter with the Palestinians after the 7th of October. Not to do a favor to anybody. It's out of national interest. Israel is in desperate need to be integrated in full in the Middle east. And I think the Middle east, all the Middle east is sincerely including. I've seen some media events, panels and studios in Lebanese TV where Lebanese now are daring to say, we would like to have normalization with Israel. So a new regime in Syria that is opening the doors. Lebanese are now mobilizing in a way that is opening the doors for normalization with Israel, Saudi Arabia, the whole region would like to integrate Israel. And I think we Palestinians, it's in our best interest to allow this integration and to be included in that process. We need to start thinking in that direction. We cannot stay a lot on the 7th of October, it does not help anybody. Israel has proved that it is a very strong country, that it has a very strong army, that it has always found a way to defend itself, that military strength is obvious to everybody. And I think that military strength is the only safety valve now in terms of public opinion and trust internally for the Israelis to go through a passage that will lead to integration and a change regionally. We need to open a new chapter. We are always ready. You can see all the indications that are helping us. It's just we need political will. We need to change. As Palestinians, we need to do a lot of things. And I think the Israelis also, they need to take certain steps.

[A]

My sense of the Gaza war was that it wasn't revenge. I very much felt a desire for revenge against Hamas, not against Gaza as a whole, but the getting Hamas, the war to get Hamas, the way Hamas built those tunnels, what it takes to actually pull them out, what it takes to actually destroy those tunnels is what this war looked like, a raiding war where you went into the same place four, five, six times. That place is demolished by the time you're in the sixth raid. You're saying to Israelis, you're saying to Israelis who are in this sort of revenge space, you're saying, guys, look at what Gaza has suffered. The revenge has been achieved many times over. What you're saying to Israelis, that are where I'm at, which is we actually have to get hanas out of the way. You're saying this is going to get hanas out of the way. That is on offer now. It can't be done by demolishing Dir Al Balakh. It can't be done by demolishing what's left in Gaza. It can only be done through this rebuilding process that is now on offer and the Israelis need to get with the program. Is that accurate? Is that basically what you're saying?

[B]

Definitely. I think this is a very good summary for my opinion. My point of view, the aim is clear for everybody. The discussion over the process. How can we reach that?

[A]

I share with you the sense, which shocks me that you say it. I haven't heard other Palestinians say it, and maybe it's because I haven't been listening properly, but Trump is such an opportunity for Palestinians because Trump has something that a future democratic president probably won't have, which is massive leverage over the Israelis. Trump got Netanyahu to stop. Trump got Netanyahu to agree. And the UN Security Council and even China and Russia wouldn't veto it to the 20 point plan, which is a massive rebuilding plan. The Israelis are very focused on Hamas disarming, I think Article 2 of the plan. But everyone, everywhere, the Arabs, vast amounts of money and even Netanyahu, because he's not going to face down Trump on this, are on board with this plan. And it feels as though Hamas resisting this plan is a defying of Palestinian, a basic Palestinian interest. So if Palestinians more. So you're saying the Israelis are preventing them from coming in. I hear that. I understand that Palestinian conversation needs to tell the Israelis what you're saying. Right. This is the way to get Hamas disarmed. This is going to work. This is a moment Palestinians have to grab. If Palestinians miss Trump, it is not clear to me that a future president, because they won't be as pro Israel, because they won't be as necessary for Israel, because Israel will already have written them off, won't have that leverage that they could use for the Palestinians. So also that sense of urgency, I agree with you. That is manifestly in the Palestinian interest. And so take us to the elections, to the local elections in the west bank, in Deir El Balakh, in Gaza. Something very, very interesting happened. People could have read about it in the news. Most people will not have read about it in the news because it kind of went under the radar. Many other things are happening. Iran, Hormuz, et cetera. Something completely unexpected happened in these local elections that we just went through and just saw. You were involved deeply in them, including by the way, with lists and Diral Banach. So what happened and what does it signal and why does it make you an optimist?

[B]

Well, I can summarize them in the following. First of all, the new law for the local election requested as a condition for any candidate or analyst that is participating in the election to sign in writing a commitment of recognizing the agreements. Recognizing and supporting the agreements signed between PLO and Israel, which means recognizing the state of Israel. This has forced Hamas, Jihad Islamic, the Popular Front, Democratic Front, all the radicals of the Palestinian side boycott that elections and launch a campaign on boycott for them. They didn't want to see any turn out item out in this election. They wanted to see very low participation in that election. So they have done the max possible. Yet 53% was the rate of the. Which is good. It does not mean that 47% is the exact level of influence for the radicals. Because in any election, any society, 25% of the society does not care about any elections. If we take out this.

[A]

I think The Americans had 50 to 60 in a good election. Yeah, with nobody telling them not to vote. Yes.

[B]

Israel, which is a very active, very active society in politics. The 10 out was around 72, 73%. So let us say usually 25% of any society will not care of any elections. There was never higher. Okay, so let's take at least 25%. What's left for Hamas is 22%. Not only Hamas, with the Jihad Islamic, with the Popular Front, with the Democratic Front, with everybody that called for the micro. This gives us a very accurate status of the Palestinian society. Radicals are on the side of around 25%. The mainstream is 50, 55%. And there are these careless people who are 25%. This is a very, very healthy situation because always the mainstream will be able to manage those who are in the sides. It's like this always in uncertainty. There are radicals, there are extremists, they can be kept. It's just the mainstream need to hold itself together. And be able to raise it for voice louder than the others. Now, on the results of the elections, wherever the list of President Abbas has been challenged, almost it has been defeated by independent press, by opposition Fatah, opposition list, by people that are committed to the agreements with Israel and to the dialogue and to the diplomatic channels. Yet they are not in agreement with Abbas and his corruption and his uselessness. He has been useless for the Palestinians for 21 years. He did not achieve anything. He has dealt with several Israeli Prime Minister, 50% of the Israeli prime ministers during its history. He did not succeed with any one of them. And after 21 years of leadership of presidency at the age of 91, he still wants us to give him more time to travel.

[A]

And his son is running after him to replace him as head of Fatah.

[B]

Yes, a succession process now is starting today in Ramallah, now, this moment, and the vote will be on Saturday. So I mean, he wants to create a Palestinian monarchy for his dynasty to continue. And still, you know, some people are calling him moderate. What kind of moderation is this? A person that has zero sensitivity to the needs of his people, zero sensitivity to the internal rights of his own people. If you don't respect the internal rights of your own people, how can you clear agency representing their collective rights in front of the others? How can you be the voice of negotiations with them? A voice that reflects their opinion to the international community and manage the relation with Israel, with the Arab countries, with the international community on behalf of them? It can't work. So it was a defeat for Abbas and Hamas. And I think it's time now for the international community to push for national elections. We Palestinians need national elections. We need to go and vote out Abbas and Hamas. This is the only way to defeat radicalism and corruption. And this is the only way to produce a Palestinian leadership that is able to change the dynamics of relationships of our people with all the neighboring countries, with Israel, and start talking a language and putting an agenda that works best for the best interests of both Israelis and Palestinians. Because I think what we are not, and maybe I need to conclude with this statement. Usually I do have some conversations where I ask a question, especially for a Palestinian crowd. Why do you think that we Palestinians are important for the whole world? And then I start getting answers. None of them is the correct answer. The correct answer, Aviv, is that we are not important, not for anybody. The importance is the Jewish question for the whole world, the Jewish presence, the Jewish history. And we are lucky we find ourselves in conflict with them. So we became important now imagine if we change this relation from conflict to partnership. The interest, the supports, the importance, the presence for us and the Israelis together all over the world will be 100 times more, 1000 times more. There is no country, no president, no entity in the world that can say no to the Israelis and Palestinians if they agree, cooperate, if they start working together. So we need to work hard to change this relation from conflict to partnership. It is our obligation to our coming generations to change their lives and forever on both sides.

[A]

Samuel, we have to finish. Thank you so much for coming on. You are battling 30 years of what Israelis believe has been one failure after another. You have specific data points on why you think Hamas is losing ground and why you think the Abbas version of Fatah is losing ground. It's, you know, it's something we're going to start watching because we haven't been watching those data planes. God, I hope you're right. God, I hope you're right. I don't know. You know, I talked to many Palestinians who just say, no, you're all going to eventually be kicked out of here because we will never stop. But. And I don't think that's accurate. Never mind whether I believe I'll fight back or not. I just literally don't think that is in the cards.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so it's a great way to destroy the Palestinian cause, not Israel. But if. If what you say is right, and if what you say, even if it's an optimistic version and it. It's half right, then maybe there is a possible future path that we can begin to see, to see forward. Thank you for, for coming on. Thank you for everything you do.

[B]

Thank you. Thank. You.