Podcast Summary: Episode 17 – The Gaza War Began 25 Years Ago, A Conversation with Matti Friedman
Podcast Information:
- Title: Ask Haviv Anything
- Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
- Guest: Matti Friedman
- Release Date: June 9, 2025
- Episode Title: Episode 17: The Gaza war began 25 years ago, a conversation with Matti Friedman
1. Introduction
In Episode 17 of "Ask Haviv Anything," host Haviv Rettig Gur commemorates the 25th anniversary of Israel's withdrawal from South Lebanon, ending an 18-year military presence. To delve into the profound lessons from this pivotal moment in Israeli history and its reverberations in contemporary conflicts with Gaza, Iran, and Hezbollah, Haviv engages in an insightful conversation with Matti Friedman. Matti, a veteran and author of the bestseller Pumpkin Flowers, offers a unique perspective shaped by his firsthand experiences during the Lebanon conflict.
2. The 25th Anniversary of the Israeli Withdrawal
Haviv opens the discussion by highlighting the significance of the withdrawal anniversary, emphasizing its impact on Israel's strategic outlook and societal psyche.
"Yesterday was the 25th anniversary of the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon... we're going to dive deep into that experience and the lessons it taught us about the enemies we face today."
— Haviv Rettig Gur [00:05]
3. Matti Friedman's Military Experience in South Lebanon
Matti recounts his involvement with the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) in South Lebanon, detailing the unexpected rapid withdrawal in May 2000. His narrative underscores the shock and personal impact the withdrawal had on Israeli soldiers and society.
"The idea that all those outposts could just be blown up and this entire Israeli world that existed in south Lebanon over a period of almost two decades... was quite shocking."
— Matti Friedman [04:36]
4. Evolution of 21st Century Warfare
A significant portion of the conversation explores how the Lebanon conflict served as a crucible for modern warfare tactics. Matti explains how guerrilla tactics, such as hit-and-run assaults and improvised explosive devices (IEDs), were pioneered by Hezbollah during this period.
"We were witnessing the birth of 21st century warfare... it was a hit and run war with IEDs and guerrillas who never really faced the Israeli army head-on."
— Matti Friedman [10:22]
5. Impact on Israeli Society and National Consensus
Haviv draws parallels between the Lebanon withdrawal and subsequent conflicts, illustrating how inconsistent war objectives and lack of national consensus can erode public trust and morale.
"In 1982, there wasn't a sense of being surrounded and desperate... In 2000, there was a radically different kind of war that produced immediate social protest within Israel."
— Haviv Rettig Gur [15:53]
6. The Rise and Strategy of Hezbollah and Hamas
The discussion delves into Hezbollah’s strategic use of media and psychological warfare, which aimed to influence Israeli public perception and morale. Matti elaborates on how Hezbollah’s early adoption of video propaganda served as a powerful tool to project victories and undermine Israeli confidence.
"Hezbollah understood the importance of video before almost anyone else... they cut that part from the video so you don't see them running away. It looks like this act of heroism."
— Matti Friedman [13:50]
7. Current Conflict in Gaza and Lessons from Lebanon Withdrawal
Reflecting on the modern Gaza conflict, Haviv and Matti analyze how the strategies and failures of the past inform current responses. They discuss the intertwined relationships between Hamas and Hezbollah and the long-term implications of strategy shifts stemming from the Lebanon withdrawal.
"Hamas becomes even more influential. And that all kind of leads us to the current disaster in Gaza."
— Haviv Rettig Gur [25:53]
8. Definitions of Success and Ideological Clashes
A critical part of the conversation centers on differing definitions of success between Israel and its adversaries. Matti contrasts Israel’s focus on societal well-being and security with Hezbollah and Hamas’s religiously driven objectives aimed at the eradication of Israel.
"For us, success is basically... getting up in Jerusalem and taking my kid to school... For them, success is the eradication of the infidels and the construction of some kind of Islamic government."
— Matti Friedman [21:01]
9. Leadership and Public Trust in Israel
Haviv and Matti discuss the erosion of public trust in Israeli leadership, drawing parallels to the 1980s Lebanon conflict. They emphasize the importance of competent and trusted leadership in unifying the nation during prolonged conflicts.
"More than two thirds of Israelis don't trust the government... which has very clear echoes to anyone who knows the story of Lebanon beginning in 82."
— Matti Friedman [31:27]
10. Personal Impact and Societal Divisions
Highlighting the deeply personal nature of the conflict, Matti shares poignant anecdotes about families and friends affected by ongoing violence. He underscores how the war transcends theoretical debates, embedding itself into the fabric of everyday Israeli life.
"I have two brothers-in-law in Gaza... the son of the guy who runs the grocery store in my neighborhood was killed... it's a very personal war for Israelis."
— Matti Friedman [40:33]
11. Prospects for Peace and Future Outlook
In concluding their conversation, Matti expresses cautious optimism about potential regional progress with Gulf countries while acknowledging the improbability of a negotiated peace with the Palestinians under current ideological constraints. He stresses that Israel's future hinges on competent leadership and societal unity.
"Israel's future is very bright... it's completely in our hands. What we do next, what the Jews in Israel decide to do with our sovereignty is a decision that we have to make."
— Matti Friedman [49:34]
12. Conclusion
The episode wraps up with Haviv thanking Matti Friedman for his profound insights. The comprehensive discussion offers listeners a deep understanding of the historical and ongoing complexities shaping Israel's security landscape, societal dynamics, and the enduring quest for peace.
"Matti Friedman, thank you so much for joining me."
— Haviv Rettig Gur [52:21]
Notable Quotes with Attribution:
-
Haviv Rettig Gur [00:05]:
"Yesterday was the 25th anniversary of the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon... we're going to dive deep into that experience and the lessons it taught us about the enemies we face today." -
Matti Friedman [04:36]:
"The idea that all those outposts could just be blown up and this entire Israeli world that existed in south Lebanon over a period of almost two decades... was quite shocking." -
Matti Friedman [10:22]:
"We were witnessing the birth of 21st century warfare... it was a hit and run war with IEDs and guerrillas who never really faced the Israeli army head-on." -
Haviv Rettig Gur [15:53]:
"In 1982, there wasn't a sense of being surrounded and desperate... In 2000, there was a radically different kind of war that produced immediate social protest within Israel." -
Matti Friedman [21:01]:
"For us, success is basically... getting up in Jerusalem and taking my kid to school... For them, success is the eradication of the infidels and the construction of some kind of Islamic government." -
Matti Friedman [31:27]:
"More than two thirds of Israelis don't trust the government... which has very clear echoes to anyone who knows the story of Lebanon beginning in 82." -
Matti Friedman [40:33]:
"I have two brothers-in-law in Gaza... the son of the guy who runs the grocery store in my neighborhood was killed... it's a very personal war for Israelis." -
Matti Friedman [49:34]:
"Israel's future is very bright... it's completely in our hands. What we do next, what the Jews in Israel decide to do with our sovereignty is a decision that we have to make."
Final Thoughts:
This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the enduring impact of Israel's withdrawal from South Lebanon on its current security challenges and societal fabric. Through Matti Friedman's firsthand accounts and profound analysis, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the complexities that continue to shape the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and regional dynamics.