Podcast Summary: Ask Haviv Anything – Episode 31: The Century-Old Harbinger of October 7, a Conversation with Yardena Schwartz

Release Date: July 27, 2025
Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Guest: Yardena Schwartz, Author and Journalist
Title: The Century-Old Harbinger of October 7

Introduction

In Episode 31 of "Ask Haviv Anything," host Haviv Rettig Gur engages in a profound conversation with Yardena Schwartz, author of "Ghosts of a Holy War." Recorded live at Martha's Vineyard during a special event hosted by Chabad on the Vineyard, the episode delves into the harrowing parallels between the 1929 Hebron massacre and the tragic events of October 7, 2023. The discussion seeks to unravel the deep-seated religious and historical threads that continue to fuel the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Historical Context: The 1929 Hebron Massacre

Yardena Schwartz introduces her book by recounting the events of August 23-24, 1929, in Hebron—a city renowned for its ancient Jewish heritage. During these days, 3,000 Muslim men erupted in violence against the Jewish community, resulting in the murder of 133 Jews amid brutal acts such as rape and mutilation.

Yardena Schwartz [06:49]: "1929, August 23rd and 24th, in Hebron saw one of the worst pogroms outside of Europe that had happened to Jews."

She emphasizes that Hebron had been a beacon of coexistence, housing a small Jewish population living harmoniously with their Muslim neighbors. The British Mandate authorities, responsible for maintaining order, failed to protect the Jewish community, leading to their decimation and exile.

Parallels to October 7: A Century-Old Echo

The conversation draws stark similarities between the 1929 massacre and the October 7 attacks, highlighting how religious fervor and incitement have historically underpinned violent outbreaks.

Yardena Schwartz [06:49]: "What we saw on October 7th was chillingly similar to what happened on August 24th, 1929, in Hebron."

Both events were marked by religiously charged rhetoric, including chants like "Allahu Akbar" and calls to exterminate Jews. The role of Muslim clerics and teachers in leading mobs is a recurring theme that underscores the influence of religious leaders in these violent actions.

The Role of Religion in the Conflict

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on how religious narratives have been weaponized to justify violence. Yardena Schwartz argues that the hatred driving these actions is deeply rooted in religious texts and traditions.

Yardena Schwartz [17:12]: "It's not a slavery, it's not just about land. Al Aqsa is in danger. The Jews are defilers."

She critiques Western media for failing to acknowledge the religious motivations behind Palestinian violence, insisting that understanding this aspect is crucial for comprehending the ongoing conflict.

Yardena Schwartz [28:51]: "The second intifada is known in Arabic as the Al Aqsa Intifada... It's called the Al Aqsa Intifada because what sparked it was Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount that awakened these fears of Jewish takeover of Al Aqsa."

Evolution of Zionist Defense Organizations

The massacre of 1929 was a pivotal moment for the Jewish community in Palestine, catalyzing the transformation of defense organizations like the Haganah. Initially a loose, predominantly Ashkenazi group focused on defense, the Haganah evolved to include Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews, becoming a more centralized and formidable force in response to escalating violence.

Yardena Schwartz [36:03]: "The Haganah went from being an almost exclusively Ashkenazi operation to having Sephardi Mizrahi Jews who were much more traditional."

This unification and militarization laid the groundwork for future defense initiatives, including the formation of more aggressive factions like the Irgun, which advocated for preemptive and retaliatory attacks.

Western Perceptions vs. Ground Realities

Schwartz criticizes Western media for its selective reporting, arguing that significant aspects like the religious indoctrination and incitement within Palestinian society are often ignored or downplayed. She contends that this skewed portrayal prevents a genuine understanding of the conflict's roots.

Yardena Schwartz [30:44]: "There is a profound piece of the puzzle that we're going to try and raise in that conversation."

The conversation highlights how Western narratives tend to frame the conflict within paradigms of anti-colonialism and competing nationalisms, which Schwartz believes are insufficient to grasp the true drivers of Palestinian violence.

Discussion on Contemporary Strategies and Perspectives

In the latter part of the episode, a listener named "D" raises concerns about Israeli military strategies prioritizing victory over hostage release, reflecting widespread Israeli societal sentiments favoring the latter.

D [54:35]: "Most Israelis that I speak to say that they have it. The release of the hostages has to be privileged over absolutely everything else."

Yardena Schwartz responds by emphasizing the critical need to address the foundational issues of incitement and hate to pave the way for sustainable peace. She advocates for empowering moderate Palestinian leaders who support coexistence and recognize Jewish sovereignty.

Yardena Schwartz [44:27]: "I do think that those in power who have the resources and the time and the desire to see peace in Israel, Palestine, should and need to focus their efforts on the true sources of the conflict, which are the disinformation, the incitement, the exploitation of religion."

Controversial Perspectives and Antisemitism

The episode includes a contentious exchange with a participant "C," who argues that the conflict is rooted in antisemitism rather than religion. While Schwartz agrees that hatred is fueled by religion, she maintains that religious texts and narratives are integral to understanding the depth of anti-Jewish sentiments.

C [45:43]: "I fundamentally disagree with both of you. I don't think this is about religion. I think religion is a cover for hatred."

Yardena Schwartz [47:37]: "Well, you're right, it is absolutely about hatred, but it's a hatred fueled by religion."

Rabbi TZVI Al Perowitz further elaborates on the historical roots of antisemitism, tracing its origins to early Christian doctrines and comparing it to contemporary antisemitic ideologies within Islamic contexts.

Rabbi TZVI Al Perowitz [48:40]: "Antisemitism is born in one place and one moment. And that moment is early Christianity... Jews must be oppressed for all time."

Conclusion and Insights

The episode concludes with reflections on the complexities of achieving peace given the entrenched religious and historical animosities. Yardena Schwartz underscores the necessity of addressing incitement and transforming educational narratives to foster a foundation conducive to peace.

Yardena Schwartz [52:00]: "If a leadership, a Palestinian leadership emerges which does acknowledge Jewish sovereignty over at least some part of the historic Jewish homeland... I think we could see different outcome."

Rabbi Rettig Gur adds that understanding the profound religious dimensions is essential, advocating for dedicated discussions and education to bridge the knowledge gap in Western societies.

Rabbi TZVI Al Perowitz [53:08]: "The west has to start seriously understanding religion and learning about it again."

Notable Quotes:

• Yardena Schwartz [06:49]: "1929, August 23rd and 24th, in Hebron saw one of the worst pogroms outside of Europe that had happened to Jews."

• Yardena Schwartz [17:12]: "It's not a slavery, it's not just about land. Al Aqsa is in danger. The Jews are defilers."

• Yardena Schwartz [28:51]: "The second intifada is known in Arabic as the Al Aqsa Intifada... It's called the Al Aqsa Intifada because what sparked it was Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount that awakened these fears of Jewish takeover of Al Aqsa."

• Yardena Schwartz [36:03]: "The Haganah went from being an almost exclusively Ashkenazi operation to having Sephardi Mizrahi Jews who were much more traditional."

• C [45:43]: "I fundamentally disagree with both of you. I don't think this is about religion. I think religion is a cover for hatred."

• Yardena Schwartz [47:37]: "Well, you're right, it is absolutely about hatred, but it's a hatred fueled by religion."

• Rabbi TZVI Al Perowitz [48:40]: "Antisemitism is born in one place and one moment. And that moment is early Christianity... Jews must be oppressed for all time."

Final Thoughts

Episode 31 of "Ask Haviv Anything" offers a deep dive into the historical and religious underpinnings of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through Yardena Schwartz's scholarly lens. By drawing parallels between past and present atrocities, the conversation underscores the persistent and evolving nature of religiously fueled violence. The episode challenges listeners to reconsider conventional narratives and emphasizes the importance of addressing foundational issues to pave the way for lasting peace.