Ask Haviv Anything — Episode 40

"You still need real life spies to win wars," with Yossi Cohen

Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Guest: Yossi Cohen, former Mossad Director
Date: September 4, 2025

Overview

In this wide-ranging and candid interview, Haviv talks with Yossi Cohen, the former director of Israel’s Mossad, about the present and future of Israeli society, the wars in Gaza and Iran, the role of intelligence in an age of AI and surveillance, the ongoing hostage crisis, and Cohen’s own potential political ambitions. The conversation is profoundly reflective, mixing hard analysis, personal insight, and clear-eyed assessments about the nation’s unity, intelligence failures, and the necessity—for Israel and for modern security—of human intelligence.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of Israeli Society: Divided or United?

Timestamps: 02:29–08:22

• Cross-community Experience: Cohen, who spans both religious Zionist and secular Israeli cultures, addresses concerns about widening fault lines amid the ongoing war.
• Unified on Core Issues: He rejects simplistic narratives dividing religious and secular communities over priorities (hostages vs. defeating Hamas), insisting that “all citizens of Israel...everybody wants to see the hostages home” and that differences are over “the price that the State of Israel will have to pay.”

  “I want to believe, and I hope this is the case, that all citizens of Israel, religious or nonreligious, secular or not... want to see the hostages home.” (Yossi Cohen, 06:28)

• National Pain and Responsibility: Acknowledges "huge price" Israel is paying for both the October 7th failures and the ongoing conflict, stating this unites rather than divides Israelis.

2. Gaza: Paths to Victory and Risks

Timestamps: 08:22–18:01

• No Simple Solution: Cohen emphasizes that any deal must prevent Hamas from remaining in power, as this would undermine any hope for stability or reconstruction in Gaza.
• Patterns of Violence: Past rounds of conflict with Hamas have always ended with negotiated agreements, never definitive defeat. Cohen argues this must change and calls for a tougher, more lasting solution.
• Rebuilding Gaza’s Future: Skeptical about aid effectiveness while Hamas or other jihadist groups remain. True reconstruction is only possible if Gazans themselves establish a modern, non-terrorist leadership.

  “They have been captured under a brutal organization called Hamas...They have used huge quantity of cement to build tunnels, no clinics, no schools, no hospitals. Right. That's what they did.” (Yossi Cohen, 13:34)

• Long-term Vision: Suggests international fatigue will mean less external support for rebuilding, inadvertently pressuring Gaza toward self-reform or continued hardship.

3. The Uncertainty of Absolute Victory

Timestamps: 14:18–18:01

• Defeating Terror: Cohen, drawing on decades of counter-terror experience, explains why “absolute victories and absolute losses aren’t part of modern warfare.” He advocates for relentless pressure, recognizing that terrorism operates more like an ideology than a finite military target.

4. The Mossad: Human Intelligence in the Age of AI

Timestamps: 18:01–26:47

• Unique Capabilities: Cohen details Mossad’s deep preference and proficiency for HUMINT (human intelligence), setting it apart from agencies increasingly reliant on cyber or signals intelligence.

  “Only humans can create that. Machines cannot do that.” (Yossi Cohen, 22:14)

• Operations in Iran: Reflects on both the epic raid to secure Iranian nuclear archives and the most recent “magnificent 12 days” of operations, all built on decades of meticulous, patient groundwork.
• Adaptation to Surveillance Age: Acknowledges that technological advancements—biometrics, facial recognition, AI—have made classic espionage harder, but Mossad has successfully evolved, “changing the entire strategy of work accordingly.”

  “Crossing borders is not as it used to be, going under false identity is not as it used to be... everything has to be much more reliable and checked by anyone that you see.” (Yossi Cohen, 25:10)

5. The Iran War: How Much Has Changed?

Timestamps: 26:47–37:16

• Ongoing Threat: Despite recent severe blows, Cohen reiterates that Iran remains Israel’s chief existential enemy—both for its nuclear capabilities and its ideological drive.

  “Iran is the filthiest enemy for the state of Israel currently...I still believe that.” (Yossi Cohen, 27:59)

• Regime Change Aspirations: Regime change is extremely difficult as internal social control is brutal; international actions can only degrade capabilities, not change ideology.
• Deterrence Enhanced: The latest strikes showed Israel’s willingness and capacity to act, creating lasting strategic uncertainty for Iran.

  “For many years Iran thought that America would not come and they said they're afraid. And you know what? Absolutely right... not only we did they know that we can come again.” (Yossi Cohen, 36:11)

6. October 7: Intelligence Gaps and Institutional Accountability

Timestamps: 37:16–46:58

• Hostage Intelligence Failures: Cohen is forthright—Israeli intelligence in Gaza was “poor.” The scale and complexity of the Hamas attack revealed deep blindness, for which he insists there must be a national reckoning.

  “The level of intelligence that we had in Gaza is poor. How do I know? ...if that has happened in October 7th...it means that intelligence doesn't really exist.” (Yossi Cohen, 39:26)

• Call for Reform: Urges a national investigative committee and systemic change inside IDF and Shin Bet.
• Responsibility at Every Level: Cohen is insistent that “responsibility is yours from your first day in office,” including for the prime minister and defense minister. Calls for elections as an act of accountability, though questions likelihood of real change.

  “The responsibility that he was given...is at the first day. I'm not expecting anyone to declare I am taking responsibility. The responsibility is yours for your first day in the office. Same applies for the Prime Minister.” (Yossi Cohen, 45:08)

7. Cohen’s Political Future and the Case for Unity

Timestamps: 48:05–55:28

• Reluctant Candidate: Cohen, long linked to Likud and nurtured by Netanyahu, now openly contemplates entering politics, wanting to bring about national unity.

  “I have to be part of the Israeli leadership...the contribution to the state of Israel is from my end...endless. I can still do it.” (Yossi Cohen, 49:38)

• Unity Over Partisan Division: His vision: forge consensus on the 70% of issues Israelis agree on, and set aside divisive topics (like the Palestinian state question) to enable societal healing and practical governance.
• Personal Commitment: Describes a moving personal journey, with his family’s shifting support marking the impact of recent crises:

  “After Bibi Netanyahu declared that I'm the heir... And after October 7, [my wife] said, promise me you will [run]. I don't think that we have a choice as a family but to plunge into this muddy arena and try to make something better for the state of Israel.” (Yossi Cohen, 54:12)

8. Looking Forward: Israel’s Resilience and the Way Ahead

Timestamps: 55:28–61:39

• Reasons for Optimism: Military position much improved—“Hamas...demolished or close to that,” Hezbollah degraded, Iran deterred, the Syrian army no longer a threat.
• Continued Healing Needed: Despite economic strength and high-tech vitality, Israeli society’s internal cohesiveness must be restored through shared national missions, reforms, and above all unity.

  “The Israelis have proven to the world that we can work together... I know positively that the state of Israel is okay, but should heal much better from within its own system.” (Yossi Cohen, 58:21)

• Vision for Peace: Wonders whether new regional peace deals (with Saudi Arabia, Oman, Kuwait, even Lebanon or Syria) could grow from Israel's current strategic strength.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There are a few elements that the state of Israel is absolutely united and I want to believe that they are. And one of them is the need to release all hostages whatsoever.”
  —Yossi Cohen, 05:41
• “A terror organization could be totally defeated worldwide. Like Daesh is partially there. Al Qaeda is partially there. You know, look at Afghanistan. …unfortunately the spirit of hatred and evilness will ever be there.”
  —Yossi Cohen, 15:10
• “I think that what we have... is based on not less than 20, 25 years of work. We have learned Iran deeply. We know at the Mossad... and the determination that we don't have a choice but to get ready.”
  —Yossi Cohen, 19:19
• “[After the Dubai operation,] that was a slam on our face when we haven't realized... the magnitude of everything that you've mentioned from biometrics, facial recognition, AI... Mossad has dramatically changed its countermeasures.”
  —Yossi Cohen, 24:26
• “The level of intelligence that we had in Gaza is poor... If that has happened in October 7th and all our systems... didn't see that coming at the magnitude he did, it means that intelligence doesn't really exist.”
  —Yossi Cohen, 39:26
• “You do take responsibility the first day when you are chief of staff, minister of defense, prime minister, head of Mossad, head of Shabak, head of a department, head of a branch, Everyone that is a commander along the chain.”
  —Yossi Cohen, 45:04
• “I truly believe that we have to unify forces in order to create something better for the people of Israel.”
  —Yossi Cohen, 51:31

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:29 — Israeli divisions: reality vs. narrative
• 08:22 — The calculus of hostage deals and defeating Hamas
• 14:24 — “Victory” in counter-terror struggles
• 18:01 — Mossad’s reliance on HUMINT and the Iran archive operation
• 24:03 — How technology changed spycraft
• 27:59 — Iran’s ongoing threat and regime’s resilience
• 39:21 — October 7th: intelligence failure and aftermath
• 45:00 — Political vs. operational responsibility for failures; calls for elections
• 48:05 — Cohen’s political aims and his vision of national unity
• 55:28 — The future of Israel: optimism, defense, unity

Conclusion

Yossi Cohen brings unrivaled first-hand perspective not just on Mossad operations and intelligence work, but on the soul and prospects of Israeli society. His message is clear: resilience is possible, dangers abound, but unity and a renewed sense of national mission are essential. Relying on both technological and—crucially—human intelligence has made Israel’s defense possible, but defending and healing the fabric of Israeli society is the next great challenge.

For listeners seeking a blend of strategic realism and hope, this episode delivers hard facts, personal candor, and a thoughtful argument for how Israel can move forward after crisis.