Ask Haviv Anything — Episode 52: Why Do People Hate Jews, with Dara Horn

Date: October 17, 2025
Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Guest: Dara Horn
Summary by PodcastSummarizer.ai

Overview

This episode delves deep into Jewish literature, identity, and the persistent phenomenon of antisemitism, contextualized by recent global and local events. Host Haviv Rettig Gur, an Israeli journalist with a passion for the "Jewish bookshelf," is joined by acclaimed novelist and essayist Dara Horn. With her distinctive blend of humor, literary insight, and scholarly rigor, Horn unpacks why Jewish stories—and their erasure—sit at the center of how societies grapple with Jews, both living and dead, and why antisemitism endures across time and political context.

Together, they explore:

• What makes Jewish literature different (“anti-literature”)
• The complexities and erasure within Holocaust memory
• How American Jewish identity was shaped by conscious cultural decisions
• The mechanics and purpose of antisemitism
• What education focused on Jewish civilization, not just trauma, might achieve

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jewish “Anti-Literature” and the Unique Jewish Narrative

• Jewish Stories Are Not Hollywood Stories: Jewish literature resists the redemptive arcs and happy endings endemic to Hollywood and Western (Christian) storytelling.

  • Dara Horn (08:07): “In Hebrew and Yiddish literature, the characters are never saved. Nobody ever has an epiphany. Nobody realizes anything. Nobody has a moment of grace. Instead, there's endurance and resilience—that's the structure of the story.”
  • Example: Tevye the Dairyman is serial, doesn't resolve, and highlights resilience rather than transformation.

• Humor, Brokenness and Sarcasm: Jewish books take joy in life’s grittiness, the imperfect, and the unresolved.

  • Haviv (14:12): “None of the heroes are perfect. There is no Jesus. There’s no Muhammad in the sense of perfection. They’re all terribly broken, disastrous people... the brokenness is the narrative.”

• Embeddedness in Language: Jewish languages (Hebrew, Yiddish) encode deep layers of tradition, history, and religious sensibility that are invisible in American Jewish life, which Horn finds “thin.”

  • Dara Horn (18:26): “Every language has an archaeology of belief under it. In Hebrew and Yiddish, all those expressions are built on the Torah, the Talmud, and the Siddur—so at home native speakers don’t even hear it.”

2. The Construction and Consequences of American Jewish Identity

• Strategic Americanization:

  • Dara Horn (25:32, 26:03): “Jewish leaders in the mid-20th century deliberately rebranded Judaism as a religion after WWII, distancing identity from race (which Nazis used to justify genocide), to fit better into American norms and combat antisemitism.”

• “Jews Are Just Like Everyone Else” — The Pitfall:

  • Gentleman’s Agreement is cited as an emblem of the “don’t hate Jews, they’re just normal Americans” narrative.
  • Horn’s critique (30:22): “The problem with this premise is that Jews spent 3,000 years not being like everybody else. Uncoolness is Judaism’s brand.”
  • This erasure comes at a price: “Why does a religion need its own country?” cannot be answered if we only teach Judaism as a church-like faith, not as a people/nation.

• The Language Problem:

  • English (and more broadly, American society) lacks a true vocabulary for the Jewish collective identity (“Am Yisrael”/ People of Israel).
  • Horn (33:36): “Jews predate all those categories—race, nationality, religion. Jews are a joinable tribal group with a shared history, homeland, and culture. That's a sentence in English; in Hebrew, it’s one word—two letters long.”

3. Antisemitism: Recurrence in the 21st Century and Social Media Age

• A New/Old Wave:

  • Haviv notes that Jews—across right and left, diaspora and Israel—have been shocked by the resurgence of explicit and viral antisemitism, especially among youth on social media and via populist figures on both political extremes (Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, etc.).
  • Haviv (34:35): “This is happening to the 20- and 30-year-olds... vast media experience... millions are being swept in…and parents have no idea.”

• The Nature—and Limit—of Holocaust Memory:

  • The Anne Frank House’s attempts at “neutrality” (e.g., forbidding employees to wear a kippah; omitting the Israeli flag from audio guides) illuminate a tendency: societies like to mourn the ‘innocent’ and sanitized dead Jew, not encounter the living (especially non-assimilated) Jew.
  • Horn (40:01): “Six months is a long time for the Anne Frank House to ponder whether it's a good idea to force a Jew into hiding.”
  • On Western memory: “The Nazi project was about erasing Jewish civilization. So, why are we participating in that erasure by insisting the victims were ‘just like you and me?’” (46:18)

• The “People Love Dead Jews” Thesis:

  • Jews are only accepted by broader society when powerless (dead or otherwise impotent).
  • Horn (43:41): “The whole emphasis on righteous gentiles is an example of that. The holocaust becomes to teach non-Jews that ‘I’m a good person.’ It’s not about grappling with why a society became a place without Jews.”

• Contemporary Manifestations:

  • Violence, discrimination, and the ‘bankification’ of synagogues since October 7, 2023.
  • (Specific anecdote: A Jewish school’s security guard arrested for planning an attack – 48:17)
  • Horn’s experience on Harvard’s antisemitism advisory group: earnest at first, became a bureaucratic nightmare focused on deflection rather than real action (51:37).

4. What Is Antisemitism? Its Roots and Function

• A Civilizational Friction, Not Mere Bigotry:

  • Horn reframes antisemitism not just as social hatred, but as a “lie people use to gain or maintain power.”
  • The lie always goes: “Jews are the obstacle to what you value most. What changes is what the society most values.” (62:05)
    • In different eras/places, Jews have been cast as obstacles to:
      • Faith/purity (medieval Europe)
      • Race (Nazism)
      • Nationalism
      • Revolution, capitalism, decolonization (modern politics)

• Why the Jews? The Civilizational Role:

  • Jewish civilization is a challenge to tyranny, hierarchy, and enforced conformity—going back to monotheism as resistance to the politicized religious hierarchies of the ancient world.
  • Horn (56:15, 59:22): “Jewish civilization is an anti-tyrannical, anti-hierarchical, non-conformist movement ... That’s always going to piss off tyrants.”
  • The “story of Jewish civilization and the story of antisemitism: they are the same. Because the foundations of civilization—monotheism, interpretation, resilience—piss off societies that want everyone to conform.”

5. The Solution: Teaching Jewish Civilization, Not Just Trauma

• Ignorance Is the Main Enemy:

  • Most non-Jews (and many Jews) are simply ignorant of Jewish civilization, not malicious.
  • Horn (66:46): “There’s so much more ignorance than malice. And that is such an opportunity.”

• Introducing the Tel Institute:

  • Dara Horn’s new organization, the Tel Institute (thetelinstitute.org), aims to embed the teaching of Jewish civilization—its depth, nuance, and foundational role—into K-12 and adult education, for both Jewish and non-Jewish audiences.
  • The curriculum frames antisemitism as a persistent, contingent lie and presents examples from ancient to modern times (including the 2001 Durban Conference).

• Impact on Jewish Youth:

  • Knowing Jewish history immunizes young Jews against simplistic and bigoted narratives, especially in campus environments.
  • Haviv (63:09): “If you know the Jews’ actual story... you’re no longer able to be... taken in by the bigotry, and you become better at actually preaching your politics... This deep phenomenal ignorance is the Jews’ weakness.”

• Appeal for Engagement:

  • Both Horn and Gur invite educators, donors, and Jewish community leaders to partner with the Tel Institute, emphasizing the curriculum’s tested, adaptive approach.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• [08:07] Dara Horn:
  “There's this expectation in literature... that there has to be a moment of grace... and I noticed how Christian these terms are... In Hebrew and Yiddish literature... none of them give you any of these things... But instead there's endurance and resilience.”

• [14:12] Haviv Rettig Gur:
  “None of the heroes are perfect... the brokenness is the narrative, is the information, is the actual arc...”

• [26:03] Dara Horn:
  “This was a strategic decision on the part of American Jews to become an American religion... fighting antisemitism by pushing the idea that 'Jews are just like everyone else.'”

• [30:32] Dara Horn:
  “The problem with this premise is that Jews spent 3,000 years not being like everybody else. Uncoolness is Judaism's brand.”

• [33:36] Dara Horn:
  “Jews are Am Yisrael, the people of Israel... that's who we are.”

• [40:01] Dara Horn:
  “Six months is a very long time for the Anne Frank House to ponder whether or not it was a good idea to force a Jew into hiding.”

• [46:18] Dara Horn:
  “The Nazi project was about erasing Jewish civilization... so why are we participating in that erasure by insisting the victims were 'just like you and me?'”

• [55:07] Dara Horn:
  “If you went to this [Holocaust] museum, you wouldn't know there are Jews alive today... because there are only Jews between 1933 and 1945, and their job is to die.”

• [59:22] Dara Horn:
  “Ultimately Jewish civilization is an anti-tyrannical movement... that’s why this is foundational, and it always pisses off tyrants.”

• [62:05] Dara Horn:
  “We do not teach antisemitism as social prejudice... we teach it as a lie people use to gain or maintain power. The lie is 'Jews are the obstacle to what you value most.'”

• [66:46] Dara Horn:
  “There’s so much more ignorance than malice. That is such an opportunity.”

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment & Description | |-----------|------------------------------| | 06:33 | Jewish “anti-literature” and storytelling roots | | 14:12 | Brokenness and reality in Jewish narratives | | 25:32 | How American Jews deliberately became “a religion” | | 30:22 | Problems with “Jews are just like everyone else” framing | | 34:35 | The new wave of conspiratorial antisemitism in youth media | | 40:01 | The Anne Frank House anecdote and “People Love Dead Jews” | | 43:41 | Western memory, Holocaust, righteous gentiles, and erasure | | 48:17 | Example: Jewish school security guard plots attack | | 51:37 | Harvard’s failures addressing antisemitism post-October 7 | | 55:07 | The poverty of Holocaust-only education | | 59:22 | The civilizational roots of antisemitism | | 62:05 | The Tel Institute's approach: Antisemitism as a power lie | | 66:46 | The opportunity in widespread ignorance, not malice |

Final Thoughts

Dara Horn’s scholarship and lived experience offer a bracing, empowering framework for understanding antisemitism—not as an inexplicable virus, but as the recurring backlash against a civilization persistently out-of-step with tyranny and conformity. By illuminating the gaps in American Jewish identity, the failures of Holocaust-only education, and the dangers of erasure, Horn and Gur advocate for a restored Jewish literacy—one that can immunize, fortify, and nourish both Jews and their neighbors.

For Jewish educators, community leaders, or allies, this episode is a clarion call: A rich, living Jewish story is not only essential for Jewish resilience, but for a truthful understanding of Western civilization itself.