← At Work with The Ready
At Work with The Ready
34. Bad Bosses and How to Defeat Them, Part 1
00:37:53
Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin explore why bad bosses thrive in so many organizations, the patterns that keep toxic leaders in power, and how to protect yourself—and your team—when leaders break bad.
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- [00:01]
A
He would, like, text me at midnight and just expect me to respond because that's what his C Suite team did. And I was like, my dude, it does not be like that with us.
- [00:10]
B
You are not paying me like a member of your C Suite team.
- [00:13]
A
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Rodney Evans, freshly back from vacation, and that guy is Sam Sperlin.
- [00:19]
B
Not freshly back from vacation, but still feeling pretty good.
- [00:23]
A
Right on. Welcome back to Outwork with the Ready. This is a podcast about the future of organizations.
- [00:28]
B
Each episode, we turn our attention to one common organizational pattern that we think is worth digging into, and then we propose solutions for what to do instead.
- [00:38]
A
This week, we are talking about bad bosses, which I'm very excited about. It feels a little pedestrian in a way, and yet there is, like, so much here to unpack together. I can't wait. But before we get into it, we have to check in, because that's what we do on this show.
- [00:54]
B
That is what we do. And I'm gonna go with a thematically appropriate check in question. Rodney, who is your favorite bad boss from entertainment or media? So thinking Lumberg from Office Space. Michael Scott from the office. Mr. Krabs from SpongeBob SquarePants.
- [01:10]
A
Okay, I literally don't know any of those references, but I do have a favorite boss. I am such a deep, deep fan of the Gilmore Girls.
- [01:20]
C
Okay.
- [01:21]
A
I just, like, I live in Stars Hollow in my mind. And the arc of Paris Geller as the editor in chief of the Yale Daily News is my most favorite bad boss arc. She basically, like, builds herself a bunker inside the newsroom. She creates a system so that everybody has to put, like, their location on a whiteboard. She is like, an absolute holy terror of a person with even, like, just not that much power. And I never don't want to watch the Paris Geller part of that.
- [01:58]
B
Nice. Love it.
- [01:59]
A
What about you?
- [01:59]
B
I'm gonna come from a very different angle. Do you know the movie the Emperor's New Groove?
- [02:04]
A
No, Sam, I've never even heard of that movie.
- [02:06]
B
Oh, my goodness. Okay, well, that's fine. We'll have a fun movie night at some point at Retreat, we'll watch the Emperor's New Groove, one of the best animated movies of all time. But there's a character named Yzma, and she is a horrible boss, very self serving, very cruel to her very faithful servant Kronk, who I really identify with, and I think she's very entertaining, and that movie is just cinema perfection. So she is one of my favorite bad bosses.
- [02:34]
A
All right, well, Some deep cuts here. I will check that out at some point. So the thing is about this pattern is. I mean, it's not really a pattern, except that bad bosses are everywhere. So I guess it kind of is a pattern. I think the reason that I really wanted to do the show is because we get so many emails from listeners that are like, I'm with you, but my boss. And a lot of the conversations I have in client work and at parties is about people's bad bosses and how, like, sort of insurmountable having a dysfunctional manager relationship can be. If I had to say what a pattern is, it's that, like, every bad boss is adapted to the system that has put them in a position of power. So it is not by accident that bad bosses are everywhere. And in fact, as we talk through, like, the archetypes of bad bosses that we're going to get into today, there are really rational and understandable reasons that those people have ended up where they have ended up based on the environment around them. And you can't. You can't find leverage in these situations unless you acknowledge that reality, that there is some reinforcing cycle between this bad behavior and the environment that has promoted and calcified it.
- [03:56]
C
Yeah.
- [03:56]
B
Yeah, totally. I think what was surprisingly kind of fun about preparing for this episode is getting specific about the flavors of bad boss that there are out there, because you really. I don't think it is helpful to paint with a really broad brush and just say bad bosses, because there are so many different types. And I think we're going to use a slightly different structure to this episode than we normally do and dig into each of those, because I think the moves that are available to you really depend on which flavor of bad boss are we talking about here.
- [04:29]
A
Totally. So I think we should dig right in. I have more to say about this, but I'll do it as we talk about one. The first bad boss type that we're going to talk about today is the micromanager. I think this is among the most common or the most commonly complained about types of bosses. And the flavor here is basically like, I am an employee. You have presumably hired me because I'm capable of doing my job, and yet my boss is obsessively controlling, overreaching in terms of checking on my work, requiring a level of scrutiny that does not make sense, and if anything prevents me from doing my absolute best. What do you think about the micromanagers, Sam?
- [05:15]
B
I agree that it is probably the most common. And I was sitting here thinking as I look at some of the other ones that we're going to be talking about later, and I think some of the later ones that we talk about kind of point to some pretty serious, potentially like, psychological challenges that a person may be having. Whereas the micromanager doesn't really hit me that way. In some ways, in a lot of the organizations that I have worked with, the micromanager is an incredibly rational response to the pressures that that leader, that boss, is being placed under. So it feels, while it's very frustrating and not super great to work under, it also feels the most normal of like the various bad bosses we're going to be talking about.
- [05:54]
A
Yeah, I agree with you. And I think micromanagers rise in organizations. They get promoted because in their own work they've had this attention to detail. They've probably been too in the weeds in their own work and in their own careers, they've probably held a super high bar for themselves. And that kind of diligence has been noticed and they've gotten promoted and now they don't know actually how to start to like, let go and continue to apply quality standards to their own work and to people around them. But allowing for individuals to also have autonomy, authority, figure out their own ways, do things differently. I see a lot of micromanagers that sort of get into a like my way or the highway thing where it's like, the bar isn't quality. The bar is actually my preference as a micromanager. And that's where this one is really bad because it's like if you're just trying to make a bunch of mini use, you're not doing a good job as a boss because like, you're leaving everything on the table in terms of people's talent, their ideas, their ingenuity, their ability to reinvent things. If you're like, we do it my way, my way is the right way. I'm gonna be checking on you to be sure you're doing it my way. And I will correct you if you don't like, that's a bad color.
- [07:21]
B
Yeah, no, totally. And I think there's a fundamental, like, looking backwardness when you are a micromanaging leader and which means that you're not looking forward. So usually there is a whole swath of leadership strategy type work that is not being done because they're too busy micromanaging the stuff that they used to do, which feels like knowable and understandable. And I'm good at it. So that's what I'm going to place my attention on and this unknowable thing that I've never really done before. The more kind of forward looking leadership stuff is scary. So I'm going to kind of back away from that and stay in my comfort, my comfy space.
- [08:02]
A
Yeah, I think that's true. And it is one of those things where I'm like, if you're managing other people and you're like worried, overly concerned about like their spelling and like the font size and whatever, like you're probably not doing more important work that there is to be done.
- [08:17]
B
So including, just real quickly on that, including if that is like a recurring problem, the solve for it is not like the minute micromanaging, like fixing, let me look at all at your deck. It's the like, what's the process that we set in place so that the level of quality is where we need it to be and it affects everybody. And that's not micromanagement, that's like, that's looking at the OS of your team and putting totally in place to fix stuff.
- [08:45]
A
This is why I still, to this day when I'm on a team with people, I'm like, one of the first questions I ask is like, do you have Grammarly? Because I'm like, I will not abide spelling and grammar mistakes and also I'm not fixing it for you. We are well past that phase of my career. The thing is that happens a lot. So this is where my sort of editorial comes in. A lot of times in conversations about bad bosses, the strategies that people come up with to deal with them are very surface level and they're very much like coping strategies to sort of keep the worst tendency of this person in check or at least make it survivable for the employee. And so a lot of times with micromanagers, people are like, you know, just sort of like overwhelm them with information, like just preempt their need to check in because what they want is control. And the best thing to do is just to like be the one who's like, you know, sort of feeds their endless need for information and involvement. And my PSA here is like, don't at me if you get fired for doing this stuff because I don't know your life and I don't know these people and I don't know your context. But my best luck with managers that I've found very difficult is actually to get past the coping strategy that addresses the dysfunctional behavior and dig a little bit deeper into like what's really going on with this person. So for the micromanagers Sam, what's really going on? Like, what's their motivation, what's their damage? Basically?
- [10:18]
B
I mean, I think they have a inherent need for control and are feeling like they don't know how to get that control because the world is resisting that control because we live in a complex kind of environment. So that striving, that grasping for control comes out as micromanagement behaviors.
- [10:42]
A
Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that ultimately these are people who are trying to protect themselves from failure. They're trying to protect their team from failure too. Yeah, but what is under that protection is like these are people who seem to not trust you, their employee, when actually they don't trust themselves. They don't have a lot of faith in their own abilities. And that's why this perfectionistic stuff has come out. And they're projecting it onto the people who work for them. And that sucks. But also, like, I have a lot of empathy because I'm like, I also see in you micromanagers how you don't actually trust your own talent and your own ability to perform. And that is where this comes from. And so rather than trying to just like, you know, I'm gonna be more proactive and I'm gonna create structure for this person. Like one sort of like hack with these people is just like, flood the zone. Like I had this person. It was when I worked at a bank. It was not a great time for me. I do. It'll come as a huge shock that I do not enjoy being micromanaged. And I truly started to just like cc her on everything. I invited her to every meeting. I just like overwhelmed her with detail. The thing is about micromanagers, they have a tendency toward burnout anyway. And I was basically just like, I'm going to drive you to your own burnout by giving you so much information that you cannot handle this. I kept up this campaign for like probably a month. And then in a one on one, she started the conversation to be like, you know, you're sending me a lot that seems like you should be handling it. And I was like, oh, well, I. I can like give you a summary each week if you would rather. And she was like, oh, God, yes, please. And I was like, okay, great. Anyway, the strategy here is like, rather than trying to make them be good managers, I think one way to get at the micromanager is like, flood the zone. Use their own tendency against them, push them to a point where they actually like ask for mercy from the level of detail that you're Giving them. Again, use with caution. Grains of salt everywhere. I don't know your people, but this isn't like an aikido strategy. That worked for me.
- [12:55]
B
Yeah, yeah, that makes. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I think the only other thing I'll add is if I know we have a lot of executives who listen to this podcast too, which mean that you have bosses who work for you. Your subordinates are bosses. So if you are seeing or sensing that some of the bosses that work for you are micromanagers, I think there's probably a need to reflect a little bit about what is the environment that you are setting up, where it feels like the people who are reporting to you need to micromanage their teams. And I would be looking as a first place to kind of investigate is like, what information are you expecting to get from your subordinates? And do you actually need that level of detail? Or is your own micromanagement tendencies radiating out into micromanagement behaviors into the rest of the organization?
- [13:45]
A
This is such a good point. When at the executive level, they have the like, one throat to choke. Not my favorite expression thing, where they're like, well, I expect this person to show up to my meeting or my board meeting or my leadership team, knowing the story behind every cell in the Excel sheet. I'm like, well, what you're going to get from that is a bunch of micromanagement nonsense beneath you. That is a waste of time. So I think it's a great point. Anything else on this one, Sam?
- [14:12]
B
No, I think we should move on to another one.
- [14:15]
A
Walk us into number two.
- [14:17]
B
Number two, the rager. This may be the other, like, most canonical bad boss. I think thanks to these, people are everywhere, Steve Jobs and others. So, you know, displaying abusive behavior, yelling at people, really quick temper, abusive messaging, unreasonable demands. I mean, that's probably enough to tee up in your mind, what we're talking about about here, A real. A real raging.
- [14:45]
A
Yeah, I mean, I would say, like, at my worst, when I was a boss, I was this one. I mean, I don't know that I was ever like, abusive, but I would say, like the unreasonable demand part of this. And here's the thing about the rager. Most of us, I'm going to include myself in this category because if I'm one of these, it's this one. Most of us learned at some point in our career that aggression was a show of strength and that we are seen as people who can handle conflict, can basically be tough and strong and can get things done, and can Sort of like impose our will and have power over people to drive to an end state. This is not a good look. But the like, brilliant jerk archetype is one for a reason. And having leaders that like create a lot of fear around them, at least in the short term, often creates results. It's a really tough nut to crack because I think the deeper psychology of this kind of boss is people who really want to mask their own vulnerability. That was definitely me. And especially in fields like tech and finance, like, vulnerability is often seen as weakness. And so you have this perfect storm of an individual with a tendency to not want to look weak in an environment that doesn't tolerate weakness and who only knows how to overcome that by demonstrating strength as aggression. And so we see a lot of these people that rise in the ranks of organizations and they are hell to work for.
- [16:32]
B
Yeah, I mean, human biology is set up so that when we get a shot of adrenaline, a shot of stress, our physical abilities are enhanced because we're trying to run away from that lion. And it's a useful thing that we have evolved to have for our survival. And when I think about kind of the raging boss in an environment where this is the norm, is that we're basically abusing that biological response to get short term results. And usually we want our organizations to last longer than the short term. Most organizations are not around to be like, we're just going to last for the next quarter and like, we'll all disband and go on our separate ways. If you're trying to build a culture, build a sustainable organization, every time a rager boss gets promoted or elevated, you're basically creating a more brittle and a culture that is just waiting to kind of fall apart. And you're taking shortcuts for like people to take heroic action in situations where that heroic action is not necessary.
- [17:45]
A
I think that's right. And like, we're going to talk later about some things to do if you see yourself in these types. But you know, one lesson that I learned, and I keep saying it because I don't think most people have learned it yet, is like, you can disagree with something and not be angry. You can be critical of someone's work and not be angry. You can feel disappointed in an outcome and not be angry. Like, anger does not have to be the dance partner of every setback and every failure. And I think for the ragers and the anger is ever present and it is right there and it is looking for a channel. And so when somebody misses a deadline or fucks Up a presentation or loses a deal or whatever. That, like, little rage monster is like, yay, it's go time.
- [18:43]
B
My time to shine.
- [18:44]
A
Yeah. And, like, it's not go time. Like, it's just. It's really not. Because what you end up with is a bunch of people around you who are afraid and paralyzed and basically are just working to keep you calm, not to do their job jobs well. And that is not staying small for success at all.
- [19:02]
C
Totally.
- [19:04]
A
So the thing is about this one is, like, I think this one feels the most intractable because they're the scariest. I think a lot of the surface level solves on this are, like, go to hr. I mean, that's what people tell you. Like, just, you know, find someone to talk to or, like, you know, talk to them, like, calmly afterward and be like, can we, you know, can we connect? Like, I think the only way to deal with a bully is, like, resistance, actually. And again, I know that this is risky, so choose your own adventure here. But I worked with someone for a period of time. He was not my direct boss, but he definitely had more power than I did in the organization who was, like, properly a rager. And one time in a meeting, he yelled at me, and he slammed his hand on the table, and he got all red and fiery, and I just, like, let him. And it was in front of a whole team of people, and I waited until he had, like, worn himself out, and I was just like, are you done? And he turned, like, the brightest shade of humiliated red that I had ever seen him turn. And it never happened again. Yeah, because you embarrassed him.
- [20:22]
B
Because I saw of, like, this is the most important thing in the world, and I'm gonna act like it's the most important thing in the world, and really, you're just a dude in a suit sitting in a room, and you were able to kind of make the facade drop away, and, like, suddenly it's really awkward. So, yeah, I love that move. It takes a lot of courage to do that, and probably you kind of have to get to a point of, like, fuck it. Like, I don't care where this goes.
- [20:48]
A
I had no fucks to give, and I was ready to get fired on the spot. To be clear, that was the mental state that I was in. I was like, I was tired of being bullied and bossed around by this fucking dipshit, and I was basically like, if he fires me right now, I will walk out of this office and, like, never look back. I don't care. So, like, know that it could Go that way. And I was at that point and to your point, Sam, and piercing that veil with a bully and creating like, not full blown shame, like I would, you know, I just don't think it's good practice as a human to like, try to shame someone, but some light embarrassment that's just like, you look like a fucking maniac. What are you doing? Like, and then everybody around you kind of goes like, oh, yeah, like, this is just a dude. Like, this is just an angry dude who's just like, you know, lashing out. Yeah, yeah. And so if there is a way, I think being like, you yelling at me is not helping. Is there another thing we could do here? Or resisting in whatever way you can calmly, like, if you are also angry, the escalation will happen when you're basically like, I'm in full control of myself and you are not in full control of yourself. That's the dynamic they're going for with a bully.
- [22:09]
C
Yeah.
- [22:09]
B
That stark contrast can work in your favor.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah. What about the org with this one, Sam? Because, like, you, I think, have a good sense of like, you know, why are these people. And what to do if these people work for you?
- [22:23]
B
Yeah, this, this is tough because this is. You know, people sometimes talk about culture being like, what is the, like, worst behavior you'll tolerate in someone? And if it is at all connected, if this person, this rager, is at all getting like halfway decent results, most organizations will like, happily look beyond some really shitty behavior. And I actually think it's really much. I think it's a false correlation in most cases that, like, these ragers are also getting really good results. I think in a lot of cases, these ragers are getting good results in spite of the raging. And yet you have actually made this, like, positive connection between the two, which is just really, really dangerous. So I think if you're in a position of elevating people into managerial positions, into leadership positions, I think that, you know, the no assholes sort of rule is a really important one to be thinking about and being on the lookout for. Because I do think it's hard to extirpate these people once they have kind of gotten into a position and created the culture of fear around them.
- [23:30]
A
I also think that these people get performative results because they won't tolerate anything else. So I don't think they hear the truth a lot. And the rage comes from, like, deep inadequacy. Like, people who have, like, imposter syndrome do this because they don't know what to do. Most of the time when I hear, I have two friends right now in two very different industries who are contending with a boss like this. And in both cases when I hear these stories, all I hear is this boss does not know what the fuck they're doing. They don't know what they're doing. They are incompetent. It is scary. They have landed in a position where they don't know how to do their jobs properly. And this is how they are overcoming that is just with rage and abuse and manipulation of the people around them because they don't know what else to do. So like, while we're not going to play into that and be like, let's make these people secure, that is not your job also. No, it is not coming from a place of strength. It is coming from a place of inadequacy. For sure.
- [24:38]
B
Totally. I think I love that point. And the last little thing that just came to mind for me actually ties back to the check in round which is that I think people look at and then maybe less of the check in round because that was fictional. But I think I always think of people like pointing to Steve Jobs as like, yeah, I'm going to be. I'm the Steve Jobs of this organization. I've got my turlock on and my jeans and my, my new Balances and I'm going to yell at people. And it's like, I just really wish people would stop looking to charismatic assholes as the end all be all of like what it means to be an authoritative like good decision making sort of leader.
- [25:16]
A
Yeah, I agree. Because like also you don't know who around Steve Jobs actually like managed the people so that the work got done.
- [25:23]
C
Totally.
- [25:24]
A
They were there.
- [25:24]
C
Totally.
- [25:25]
A
Yeah, they were there. All right.
- [25:28]
B
Third archetype, the martyr. Rodney. What's. Who's, who's the martyr? What are they up to?
- [25:33]
A
Oh, these people. So the people who are like victims themselves of the system and as a result have no boundaries. Like they expect always on availability. They expect conformity. They have no boundaries. They think everyone's lazy. They just think that like they will prove themselves and their dedication through unending work. And you should too.
- [26:04]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:05]
B
When I, when I think about this sort of leader and this sort of organization, it comes back to me to like just a fundamentally immature understanding or a lack of curiosity around how value is actually created in the org.
- [26:20]
A
Totally.
- [26:20]
B
We don't actually know like how the donuts get made and like what the donuts even are. So I'm going to make sure that you're at your desk when you're supposed to be, that you're not taking breaks, that we're basically playing business transparently. As much as possible, we're doing business. That's all I can like really wrap my mind around.
- [26:42]
A
Yeah. I also think that there's like a. There's a deep thing with martyrs. You know, a lot of these folks have tied too much of their identity to their work. They are too deep in it and they have not cultivated enough worthiness outside of their job. And so they need to impose that on the people around them to keep up the illusion that that's a good way to live.
- [27:13]
C
Right.
- [27:14]
B
That's illusion to themselves.
- [27:16]
A
Yeah, to themselves.
- [27:17]
B
The story that they're telling themselves.
- [27:19]
A
If I only have this, and this is the only thing that I derive any meaning from or connection from or worthiness from or validation from in my life, then everybody who works for me better uphold this like illusion that I have built for myself. What is so unfortunate about that? First of all, that is a sad way to live and I have a lot of compassion for those people. Second of all, what happens then ends up being quite self fulfilling. So because they don't have enough outside of work and because they lead teams and organizations in this way, then there's not space to cultivate something outside of work. It becomes this like self fulfilling thing. And my husband used to work in advertising like ages and ages ago. And there are a lot of people in advertising who don't have families or at least back then who like just never sort of made the time to like date or marry or even have like a lot of robust friendships.
- [28:26]
C
Sure.
- [28:26]
A
And so what would happen was like just an assumption of all nighters. An assumption that we're going to be in the editing suite until 2 o' clock in the morning. And like part of that is because it's just how the work got set up over time. But part of it is these people don't want to go home. Yeah.
- [28:44]
C
Yeah.
- [28:45]
A
And so my husband and I, who are like newly dating, I'm just like, what in God's name are you guys doing? Why do you have three meals a day with these people? Like, first of all, you make no money. Second of all, you are selling cereal. Third of all, you're not Coppola editing the Godfather. What are you guys doing all night? You know, there were a lot of martyrs in that place who had built their whole identity around the job. And then those sort of like the all nighter, we're all in this. This is how we do it here. This is how we show it just becomes cultural.
- [29:21]
C
Yeah.
- [29:21]
B
And you're, you're convincing me that this is maybe even harder to snap out of than the other two that we've already talked about. Because this is about, this is about how you like fundamentally understand your life and the incredible sunk cost that you have already invested in living a certain way and showing up a certain way. I think it takes some pretty incredible self awareness and self work to be like, the way I've been doing this for 20 years, where I feel like I'm being this selfless, you know, hard working person has actually been holding me back and is actually fundamentally not great. That's a big ask.
- [30:07]
A
I think most martyrs don't realize the world of pain that they're in until they get fired. And then they come undone.
- [30:15]
B
They come.
- [30:16]
A
And that's when the realization of like, oh, I didn't invest in anything else in my life sort of hits home. So I think if you work for one of these people, communication is not going to be sufficient because you will just forever be trying to negotiate and reinforce boundaries. Like you'll just constantly be like, I don't work on weekends, I don't. And for most of us, the pull to a boss who is slacking us at one o' clock in the morning is too strong to just be constantly in the conversation about boundaries. So this is one where like, if you can't set a boundary that is upheld, you probably can't work for this person if you don't want to be like them. And the other thing that sometimes works with these people, I had a coaching client who was like this and he was like this with me. He would like text me at midnight and just expect me to respond because that's what his C suite team did. And I was like, my dude, it does not be like that with us.
- [31:18]
B
You are not paying me like a member of your C suite team.
- [31:20]
A
Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, no, you're gonna need to add a couple zeros to my check if, if you expect me to do this. But one of the conversations that he and I had was that I was like, I want to do a great job with you. And for you and for me to do that, I need to have these boundaries from you. Like the way that this dynamic needs to work is that we practice having really high quality conversations. Having the conversation in the room, in the conversation, and holding things until we are back together and not sort of perpetuating this dynamic of always on. Because if I feel Like, I can't be boundaried with you. I can't do a great job for you.
- [32:08]
C
Yeah.
- [32:09]
A
It did not go perfectly well, but it was also something that no one had ever said to him before. And so I just think starting to help people understand that responsiveness does not equal quality and that they're only going to get one or the other and that they should want quality because that's ultimately what makes sense, makes them happy. And what keeps you from leaving, I think, is the, like, aikido move with these folks. But. But they're tough.
- [32:33]
B
Yeah. And if I'm in a position where I'm overseeing folks who are acting in this way, I think the move that I would try to introduce is like, I think about, like, the equation of, like, how work is or outcomes are achieved in an organization. Like, there's the time that you put into it, the time and attention and energy that you put into it, and then like, the actual results that you get. And I think a lot of times the martyrs don't care at all how big this size.
- [33:01]
A
They don't.
- [33:01]
B
It could be infinite. Yeah. And I don't have the equation in my head, but basically, like, if this number is way too big, it doesn't matter how good the outcome is. Like, I would be trying to rebalance that so that we're still getting the really good outcomes with far, far less of the time and attention and all of the rigamarole. And that is actually really valuable to us as an organization and to, like, what I expect you to be doing as a leader in this organ organization.
- [33:29]
A
I think that's right. And look, even as someone who, like, is in a. In a role with a lot of authority, that can be really challenging. Right. Like when you work with someone who can do their work in half the time and see great outcomes in half the time that I can. And I'm just like, man, I wish. I wish I was in that situation. It's really easy for me to be like, we should all be working the same as I'm working. Get over it. Like, get over it if the outcomes are there, because that's the most important thing and you want to protect those outcomes even over again. Your own comfort with someone's easily viewable effort or presence. Presence is just not a good. What's the word I'm looking for? Proxy. Presence is not a good proxy for performance.
- [34:17]
C
Yeah, agreed.
- [34:18]
B
I guess. One last thought on this one. I keep thinking that I have nothing else to say, and then something comes to mind on it. Jack, you can cut.
- [34:24]
A
Well, it's good that you're on a podcast, because that's sort of the whole point. You know, it.
- [34:28]
B
It totally is. I am heartened by. I think there is a societal kind of movement away from martyrdom.
- [34:38]
A
I think you're right.
- [34:39]
B
In organizations, partially, it's, like, economic. Like, there's fewer of these. It's, like, really, really lucrative tech jobs where, like, you just show up and you spend your whole day and you eat three meals there and, like, you make. Make, you know, millions of dollars. But I just think. I don't know. And I don't buy into, like, generational stuff too much, but I do think folks coming up into organizations now look around at the martyrs that are my age or older and are like, what are you doing?
- [35:05]
A
What are you doing?
- [35:06]
B
What are you getting? What are you getting from this? And I think that's probably. Probably positive.
- [35:12]
A
I do, too. I absolutely do, too. And also going to be really challenging for the martyrs in the house.
- [35:18]
C
Yeah.
- [35:19]
A
To have people younger than them go like, what are you doing with your life? Is that.
- [35:22]
B
Cool thing about. About the martyrs is that a martyr doesn't know they're a martyr until they're dead. And then. Then that's when you get martyr status.
- [35:30]
A
That's when you get.
- [35:31]
B
Marty. You don't get martyr status until you're dead. So.
- [35:34]
A
And the other hard thing I think about this is, like, hustle culture is real, and these people have gotten into positions of power because they play that game better than anyone, which is just, like, I will outwork anybody here at the expense of having a life outside of my job. And, like, capitalism loves that shit. So, like, a lot of these people are kicking around for just that reason.
- [36:03]
C
Yep.
- [36:04]
A
All right, Sam. We've still got a few more bad boss archetypes to get through, and rather than making this the longest episode of all time, we're going to hit pause and do the rest next time.
- [36:15]
B
That is a great idea. As you all know, we're always looking for new topics for the show. So if you have an organizational pattern that you're wrestling with or since we've been talking about it, a bad boss story you're brave enough to share, shoot us a note@podcasttheready.com Nice.
- [36:31]
A
This show is engineered by Taylor Marvin and produced by our very good friend, Jack Van Amberg. Our work with the READY is created by the ready, where we help organizations around the world change the way they work. Thank you so much for listening.