34. Even More Bad Bosses and How to Defeat Them, P2

Summary

At Work with The Ready, Episode 34: Even More Bad Bosses and How to Defeat Them, Part 2

Hosts: Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin
Release Date: October 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this follow-up to their popular "Bad Bosses" episode, Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin dig deeper into workplace dysfunction by exploring two additional toxic boss archetypes: "the Ghost" and "the Self-Promoter." They discuss behaviors, motivations, and the organizational systems that allow such bosses to thrive. Most importantly, they provide concrete, actionable advice for listeners who find themselves working with (or as) these boss types, always bringing empathy and humor to the complexities of leadership. The episode closes with reflections on self-preservation, the limits of employee power, and why sometimes walking away is the best option.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Quick Recap and the Big Pattern (04:00–04:44)

• Main Insight: All bad bosses are "perfectly adapted to the system that put them in power."
  Quote (Rodney, 00:57): "Every bad boss is adapted to the system that put them in power. That's why they're everywhere, because bad systems are everywhere."
• The hosts review the archetypes from Part 1: the Micromanager, the Rager, and the Martyr.

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2. The Ghost Boss (04:44–10:36)

Who Are They?

• The Ghost is always hard to find, slow to respond, vague in guidance, and refuses to make decisions—but insists they're "empowering" you.
• Their absence leaves team members unsupported and uncertain.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Sam (05:01): "The ghost, they're hard to find when you need them. They give really kind of vague guidance. They're slow to respond. Do not ask them to make a decision; they are not going to make it."
• Rodney (05:38): "They're the artful Dodgers of the company... They protect their reputation in the organization by being invisible."

Underlying Patterns

• Ghosts often avoid conflict and accountability, preferring to be uncriticizable by simply not being present.
• Sometimes, their behavior stems from a misunderstanding of what "empowerment" means.

How to Deal with the Ghost

• Make their absence visible by involving them in decisions and asking for input publicly (emails, shared docs, Slack).
• Force them to “show up” by engineering situations where their input is overtly required (09:51).
• If all else fails and you feel empowered, just start making bold decisions yourself and see if that draws them out (10:11–10:24).

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3. The Self-Promoter Boss (10:36–20:24)

Who Are They?

• The Self-Promoter takes credit for others' ideas and work, often at the expense of their staff's morale and professional growth.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Rodney (11:05): "The self promoter is... the credit stealer. The person that, like, steals the glory... for outcomes that they were not part of, for people's ideas and work that they did not generate."
• Sam (13:16): "If you shine, I fade... very competitive and I don't think it's particularly strategic honestly."
• Rodney (16:05): "The great thing about working for a credit stealer is if you don't give them shit to steal, they are in big trouble."

Underlying Patterns

• Motivated by insecurity, fear, and zero-sum thinking; they see others’ success as a threat.
• Sometimes they rationalize their behavior with stories about "collaboration" or by claiming "endorsement" equates to authorship (12:44).

How To Deal with the Self-Promoter

• Make your contributions and your team’s work visible by “working in public”: share drafts, use collaborative tools where others can see the progression of ideas (17:01).
• Have 1:1 conversations to clarify contributions and ask for recognition if needed. Most people, once confronted, are embarrassed and will change.
• Leaders should model proper attribution and team-based recognition, steering away from excessive individual awards (18:06–19:35).

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4. Organizational Causes and Considerations (20:24–25:51)

What These Bad Bosses Have In Common

• Most don't intend to be bad bosses, but are playing out learned behaviors that were once rewarded.
• Sam (21:46): "Everybody is the hero of their own story. Most people do not set out to be like, I'm going to be a bad boss today."
• Rodney (22:20): "Each of these five archetypes is just trying to protect themselves in some way, and they're overusing some strategy that has been previously rewarded by their current or past organization."

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5. Final Reflections: Self-Preservation and When to Leave (23:26–25:51)

• The oft-repeated "people don't leave jobs, they leave managers" is true for a reason.
• Trying to fundamentally change a bad boss is likely to fail; focus on self-preservation.
  • Sam (23:53): "You can't change people. I cannot change my boss. Don't even try."
  • Rodney (24:30): "Self preservation in the context might be the only lever you have... And I also don't think enough people think critically about whether it really is the only lever."
• When possible, leaving a bad boss (not just adapting to them) is a valid and sometimes necessary strategy.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rodney, 00:57: "Every bad boss is adapted to the system that put them in power. That's why they're everywhere, because bad systems are everywhere."
• Sam, 05:01: "The ghost... They give really kind of vague guidance. They're slow to respond. Do not ask them to make a decision; they are not going to make it."
• Rodney, 05:38: "They're the artful Dodgers of the company... They protect their reputation in the organization by being invisible."
• Rodney, 11:05: "The self promoter is... the credit stealer. The person that takes the glory... for outcomes that they were not part of."
• Sam, 13:16: "If you shine, I fade... There's only a big enough spotlight for one of us and it's gonna be me."
• Rodney, 16:05: "The great thing about working for a credit stealer is if you don't give them shit to steal, they are in big trouble."
• Sam, 21:46: "Everybody is the hero of their own story. Most people do not set out to be like, I'm going to be a bad boss today."
• Rodney, 22:20: "Each of these five archetypes is just trying to protect themselves in some way..."
• Rodney, 24:30: "Self preservation in the context might be the only lever you have..."

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Recognize Boss Patterns: Identify if you’re working for a Ghost or Self-Promoter, and remember these patterns result from organizational systems, not individual malice alone.
• Tactics for Survival: Make your boss's absence visible, keep public records of collaborative work, and never hesitate to respectfully claim the credit you deserve.
• You’re Not Alone: These boss types are common. Many have suffered—and survived.
• Self-Preservation is Key: Your power to change your boss is limited; put your own well-being first, and know when to walk away.

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Useful Timestamps

• 00:41 – Episode purpose and recap
• 04:44 – Introduction to the “Ghost” boss
• 09:51 – Tactics for dealing with a Ghost boss
• 10:36 – Introduction to the “Self-Promoter” boss
• 17:01 – "Working in public" as a defense against credit-stealing
• 20:24 – Organizational causes and what these archetypes share
• 23:26 – Self-preservation advice and when to leave a bad boss

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For feedback or your own stories of bad bosses, reach out to the hosts at [e-mail].

Transcript

[A]

They're hard to find when you need them. They give really kind of vague guidance. They're slow to respond. Do not ask them to make a decision. They're gonna be very hands off. And while they're doing all of this, they're probably gonna be talking about how they are empowering you.

[B]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Rodney Evans and that guy over there is Sam Sperlin.

[A]

Hello, Rodney Evans.

[B]

Welcome to Outwork with the Ready, a podcast about the future of organizations.

[A]

Each episode we turn our attention to one common organizational pattern that we think is worth digging into. We figure out what's going on with it, and we propose solutions for what to do instead.

[B]

This week we're going to do part two of our Bad Bosses episode. But before we do that, we have to check in. And I brought a question that has been kicking around with some of my friends and teammates at the ready that I'm really enjoying, which is what would go on your tombstone if there was a phrase to describe something essential about you? Not like, he was a great brother, but like something essential about your ethos as a human. And y', all, this is a fun ass game to play with your friends and coworkers. So, Sam, putting you on the spot, what do you think it would be?

[A]

So I've got two things that come to mind. One, somewhat tongue in cheek. But it would be something like most of his friends were animals. There's been an ongoing conversation that I've been having in Slack. I recently moved apartments and in my old apartment there was a spider. I may have even talked about this spider on this podcast at length, Wilbur the spider. He hung out next to my desk. And then Lawrence the mockingbird, who would come right out at my well, sure. And I've created whole, like, stories about what their deal is. And I said, I was actually flipping through my phone a couple of days ago looking at old videos and there's a video of me from 2014 in my backyard of the house I was living in in California. And it was like a 10 minute video of me videoing a hummingbird feeder while these hummingbirds were, like fighting each other. And I had created a whole story about how one was like, keeping the others away. I apparently am very animal centric. I don't know. Anyway, that's the tongue in cheek one. I think the more authentic one would be something like, he enjoyed the simple things or he enjoyed, he sought profundity in mundanity. How about that?

[B]

Wow. It should have words like that because that's Very on brand for you. Somebody needs to be at your tombstone with a thesaurus.

[A]

Thesaurus, yeah. This guy.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe that on your tombstone. We needed a thesaurus.

[A]

Liked words. Yeah.

[B]

So having this conversation with two different crews yesterday was very funny. I think that my answer to this is, and I think I might actually want this on my tombstone, even though I'm going to be cremated, is just to say that was fun, because I feel like that is sort of my approach to life is like I just sort of go from one thing to the next, and my primary design principle is like, will this be fun? One of our teammates, Zoe, said that it should instead be, should we? We should, because her experience of me is that energy. Anyway, this is a fun thing to do with your friends. I suggest it to everybody. You might learn something about yourself that you didn't even know that people noticed about you, which is really interesting. So, first of all, if you haven't listened to part one yet, you probably should go check that out, because don't listen to this one and be like, I can't believe they didn't talk about this kind, because it's probably in part one. But if you are not willing to do that because you're just too busy. Here's our previously on At Work with the Ready to get you up to speed. So we're going through bad boss types one by one, but the bigger pattern underneath all of it is just this drumbeat that Sam and I repeat all the time, which is, every bad boss is perfectly adapted to the system that put them in power. Just think about that for a second. Every bad boss is adapted to the system that put them in power. That's why they're everywhere, because bad systems are everywhere. So last time we started with the micromanager who can't let go of the wheel and is just really overbearing. We talked about the Rager, who is emotionally dysregulated and really leads through intimidation and fear. And we talked about the martyr, who is a boundaryless overworker and basically wants everyone else to suffer too. I think that was where we left off.

[A]

I think that's right. Should we talk about the ghost? Yeah, the ghost. All right. So this.

[B]

These people drive me nuts.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I. I was having a fun conversation with my wife about some ghosts that she's experiencing.

[B]

Were you? Oh, my God. So you. You intro the ghost.

[A]

Okay. So the ghost, they're hard to find when you need them. They give really kind of vague guidance. They're slow to respond. Do not ask them to make a decision they are not going to make.

[B]

They're not going to do it.

[A]

They're going to be very hands off. And while they're doing all of this, they're probably going to be talking about how they are empowering you and you're going to be mad about it because on the one hand you might be like, is this empowerment? I guess so, but. But you know deep down inside that there's some stuff missing that you would actually need to be truly empowered and you would love to talk to them about it, but you can't find them.

[B]

Yes, these people are so, so slippery and like they're the artful Dodgers of the company. They're like just missing in the key moments. And it's so that they are never really wrong. Like they protect their reputation in the organization by being invisible. It's like you can't pin them down. So you can't really exactly criticize what they are and are not doing because they are not really doing anything that you can like hold on to with your hands. It just like slips through your fingers like sand.

[A]

And you probably come to learn that if you do need to find them, look for where things that are going well that they haven't really been that connected to, but they're suddenly like hanging out around, around like the good vibes in the organization and trying to get some of that, some of that glory rubbing off on them.

[B]

I also feel like the ghosts that I have encountered are often very charismatic. They often have like a bunch of good relationships. They're not really like making decisions or doing things, but like they're sort of like a halo around them anyway. The thing is about these people is like the reason, one of the main reasons that they are ghost, like, is because they hate conflict and they don't want to be pinned down by you. They don't want to make a hard call that they have to live with. They don't want to be held up to criticism. And so they just avoid all of it by basically disappearing to the extent possible.

[A]

Yeah. And I think I've had a lot of experience with this version of a boss because you can be really well intentioned around empowering your team and interpret empowerment as doing this basically. So I feel like I've been a part of a lot of projects where we've like done some experimentation around empowerment and the leader involved with this team has kind of fallen into ghost mode. And we've had to have conversations about how the removal of all structure and guardrails and guidance and Just letting your team kind of do whatever is not actually the ideal state that we're looking for here. That there is structure to that they can hold, that there are decisions that only they can make that will actually enhance kind of the empowerment of their team. And that's, that's a more fun conversation to have. It's not usually malicious. It's like a misunderstanding of what it means to empower a group of people to do great work.

[B]

Totally. I think the surface level solve of this one is always like put check ins on the calendar and propose agendas and blah blah, blah. But like I have seen the ghost who like will cancel one on ones every week for like half a year. I mean this can be very profound in organizations. So I think that again my like hack here, my use at your own risk hack here is I think with these people you can actually like create transparency and visibility around to them so that their absence is more obvious. Trying to pin them down is trying to like work against their nature. Instead I'm like what can you do to sort of force them to show up rather than. Because it is, because it is in their best interest rather than trying to pin them down. And I think the way to do that is like you know, loop their name into more decisions, keep them engaged on the email, be like I'd like advice from each of you on this in the Slack channel or in the email, you know, ask them specifically about their sponsorship. Like we have a client right now that talks about like put your name on it, which I love as sort of like a value and a working agreement. If you have the ghost as a boss, you gotta figure out how to put their name on it so that they feel like they have to show.

[A]

Up to it because they're not going to accept open ended invitations to contribute to something. You have to, you have to make a boss shaped hole for them to actually add the stuff to so that if they don't we still have a boss shaped hole behind that we can point to be like, oh, isn't this interesting?

[B]

That's it. That's exactly it.

[A]

And I think if you have fewer fucks remaining, I think you can do the same thing and really just lean hard into the empowerment angle and just start making bigger calls than you think you can.

[B]

Yeah, that's a great call.

[A]

And just see if you can get them to come out of the woodwork because in the absence of guardrails and guidance you're using your judgment and just like taking some swings.

[B]

Yeah. And just be like, well you Weren't. Mileage may vary, but I think that's a great call, Sam. I think it's like, if you can't get the attention of your boss, just, like, do the most where you're at. I think that's brilliant. Okay, self promoter. One more. One more type. Yeah, the self promoter. My least favorite.

[A]

All right. Why is it? Well, first, what. What is the self promoter?

[B]

So the self promoter is like, you know, the credit sealer. The person that takes the. The person that, like, steals the glory, you know, these are, like, the stolen valor leaders of the organization who didn't do the shit themselves, but take credit for outcomes that they were not part of, for people's ideas and work that they did not generate. I think that this is so gross and such a bummer. And I have worked very closely with people who do this, and it's really demoralizing to work with someone who hell or high water, will not give you credit for your own ideas or work and just pawns them off as their own.

[A]

What's the story that you think they're telling themselves about why it's okay that they're doing that?

[B]

It's a great question. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what story they tell themselves, but I think that in order to justify the behavior, I mean, when I have confronted people about this, which I have many times in my career, because it. Because it bothers me and because, you know, I've had a lot of good ideas in my life that people have been like, thank you for that. That's mine now. I think sometimes they're like, we were in collaboration. Who knows where ideas come from? I think sometimes it's like, I'm the boss, so all of the ideas are my ideas in some way. I think sometimes the perks of being.

[A]

The boss, you've got a lot of good ideas floating up to you that you get to click on.

[B]

Yeah, they all come to me. Who knows where they come from? Who can say? Attribution is hard. You know, Um, I think that the worst version of this that I've seen is someone being basically like. Well, like, through my endorsement of the idea, because of my own power and brilliance, I'm actually doing you a favor.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

That's like. That guy can fuck right off. Uh, yeah, it's not. It's not great. So I think those are kind of the stories they tell themselves, but I think what is underneath it is like, if you shine, I fade.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, there's only a big enough Spotlight for one of us and it's gonna be me. Which is just like zero sum thinking and very competitive and I don't think it's particularly strategic honestly. I think it's pretty juvenile but I see it a lot.

[A]

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I was asking that and thinking about that because I, I think I have a long time ago like had inadvertently done this and I'm trying to think like what, like why. It was like in a much smaller stakes though. It was more like me colleague, my, my good friend Jeff. We had a conversation about some like search idea and I was like, we had like really cool conversation and then I ended up a couple days later like writing up an article about it and I didn't like cite the conversation that we had and it I think really hurt his feelings. And the conversation that we had afterward and the realization that I had done it and like how I treated him from then on is the difference between making self promotion. You're like mo and like oh I really screwed that up and I've learned and I'm going to like make sure that doesn't happen again. And I think that's true for all of these modes of being. I think you can be a, a good boss, a good leader and have a moment of rage flip, you know, come through or a, you know, just go through a period of time where you're kind of a bit of a ghost and it's more about do you recognize it, do you have that self awareness and what do you do next with, with.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. And look, we have all done what you just described. Yeah, we have all been in the soup of ideation and then later regurgitated a thing without properly attributing it to something like that is. Yeah, that is not atypical behavior. And when that becomes your management style because fundamentally you want validation so bad but you don't think that you're good enough to get it yourself. That's when this becomes a problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you just are like the only way that I can win is by stealing others greatness. Yeah, that is, that is like the really sticky thing to, to fix.

[A]

The nice thing about this one I think is that I feel like it's one of the most straightforward ones to like so easy to like undercut even if you don't. If you have less power than the person here, if you are the subordinate of a self promoter, I think there are things you can still do that really shine a light on that and people will see it totally.

[B]

I mean, because these are people who are like hoarding recognition because of their fear and because of their insecurity and because of their envy of you. Like they're stealing your ideas because they think you're smarter than them or they think that your ideas are better than theirs. Which is sad to begin with, but it also gives you a lot of leverage.

[A]

Sure does.

[B]

So when I've worked with and for these people, which I've done multiple times in my life, the thing that I know is like, I can cut off the supply of my ideas that they need. Yeah, that's a lot of power to have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The great thing about working for a credit stealer is if you don't give them shit to steal, they are in big trouble. And because a lot of this does come from insecurity and from envy. Just like the example that you gave with Jeff. Usually when you say to someone, I see this, I don't like it, please stop doing it. They're usually like, oh shit, okay, I'm gonna stop right now. Because they do not want to be embarrassed for plagiarizing their co workers stuff.

[A]

Totally. I think another, you know, one of the things we talk about all the time in terms of like a healthy OS is doing more like work in public and sharing drafts before they're complete.

[B]

This is the.

[A]

If we all have, if we've seen the version one of the document and now version 10 is being presented and we've from one to 10 people have been in there and contributing the story at the end of you presenting version 10 and being like, I did this. Everybody's like, absolutely not. I've seen the comments and the track changes on this document for the last three weeks. You can tell yourself whatever you want. But I, we all know the reality here.

[B]

You're exactly right, Sam. Like, the way to, to break this dynamic is like, I mean, you can have a one on one conversation. I often have found that to be effective. But the more advanced hack with this type is the social element. It's basically being like, work is shared. Making that clear. Like, we're working in a Google Doc where everybody is commenting. We're working in a channel where everybody's work is obvious. We're making it so evident that this was a group effort that it is impossible for one person to fully take credit for it.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

I also think that if you're a leader who has maybe some credit stealers working for you, to me, and, and like this has been my own work is like everything that we just said I think is true and stands. And there is also an element of this that's just laziness. Like it's just easier and shorter and more to the point in conversation when you're announcing something or you're showing work or whatever to just not give credit to people. Like it's just.

[A]

Or just assume that it's like understood. Like. Oh, I'm assume that it's understood.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So I think that like I've just really, because of how bad my experiences have been with this, I just really try to like make it a habit. And it has just become a habit that when I talk about something, I talk about the people involved. And I don't really care if the audience cares about that or finds it annoying or finds it slower or whatever because I know how the people feel who are named in having contributed something important. And that's more important to me than shorthand. So I think like the higher your altitude in the organization, the more important it is to model this and to make a practice of being like, here are the valuable contributions that led us to this point and from whom so that everybody knows that that's how this is done.

[A]

Totally, yeah. I love that it's. One last thought on this one for me is this is I think also why I always turn a bit of a skeptical eye to any sort of like really individual recognition in, in organizations as opposed to like team based recognition. Because I don't know, I. In most organizations the individual is not the fundamental kind of creator of value in most situations. So if we are perpetuating that myth through giving individual recognition on things that lots of people contributed to, I think you're just setting up, you're setting yourselves up for this dynamic to create an environment where self promoters are like, see the value in like being that way. And I don't. I think it's a pretty easy fix to be like, we do team recognition here because teams make shit.

[B]

It's such a good point. I mean, this is why like a lot of us have issues also with like very individualized rewards. Because for that reason, because it's complex, work can't be reduced down in that way. Like in its best state, it is greater than the sum of everybody's contribution and it can't be sort of broken back down into its component parts. And so yeah, I think, I think appreciating that and sort of doing your best to hold that in your mind even as every single human knows that they are the hero in their own story is important. Like those ideas are always going to be intention. And you can't really overdo it on giving credit where it's due.

[A]

Love it. All right, well, those are the five archetypes that we laid out here. We've covered every single possible bad boss there is, I think. Right. That's what that means.

[B]

I think we did it. Yeah, I think we nailed it. I mean, I think, you know, a lot of this came from the anti work sub on Reddit, which is one of my favorite places to hang out on the Internet. And so we tried to just like, hit the biggest ones. And when we asked folks at the ready for more examples, like, they. Everybody had a lot of examples of these. So I'm hoping that this feels like you're not. You're not sitting there, listener being like, that's not my boss. You didn't hit it. But if you are, I want to hear. I want to hear what we missed. Sam, what do these folks, like, have in common?

[A]

What do they have in common? Well, I. I think you kind of just alluded to it in that everybody is the hero of their own story. Nobody. I won't. I won't say nobody. There are some psychos out there. Most people do not set out to be like, I'm going to be a bad boss today. Like, everybody has their reason. And if you look at the kind of the operating systems of the organizations in which they are working in, as you made the point at the top of the episode, that you can see how people get this way and how they get to where they are in organizations.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's right. At the most fundamental level, you know, each of these five archetypes is just trying to protect themselves in some way, and. And they're overusing some strategy that has been previously rewarded by their current or past organization. I mean, when I was the most rager y boss, it was because working in an environment that valued aggression and dominance taught me that that was how I won. And it wasn't until I was in an environment where that didn't work anymore that I figured out it wasn't good for me or for people around me. So I think, you know, understand, like, if you see yourself as one of these types, if you lead one of these types, if you are led by one of these types, understand that what is underneath all of these shenanigans is a behavior that one time served and protected the individual from something bad and then go from there.

[A]

Yeah, I wanted to say this up front, but I feel like I'll just throw it in Here and we'll see whether, whether it makes the, the cut. But I think, you know, that cliche of that, you know, people don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers. It's a cliche for a reason. I think it's very true. And I also believe that you can't change people. Like, I cannot change my boss. Don't even try.

[B]

Don't try.

[A]

So I think self preservation is always a very valid strategy. So this was a whole episode about bad bosses and how to, like, interact with them and like, how to do your best, like, working for them. Because for a lot of people, the option of leaving for good reasons is not really on the table. But I would say don't keep yourself in an abusive situation if you have other options. Like, I think leaving a bad boss is a totally valid strategy. Whether or not you tried all the things that we said in this episode, I just feel like that's important to say. Like, it's not up to you to like, make your bad boss be less bad.

[B]

I totally agree with you. And I also think, you know, running throughout this episode in terms of the risk to take of, you know, the deeper hack or the, the more dangerous hack, like as part of your self preservation strategy, everybody has to figure out how many they have to give.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that, like, that's a part of this equation, right? Is like, how much do you need this job? How much longer is this situation going to persist? Is the money worth it? Is the market frothy? Do you have options? Like, everybody has to think critically about the situation that they are in and whether it is worth it. Because to your point, Sam, you're probably not going to change this very, like, deep, deeply rooted psychology of the person who has power over you and is making decisions for you. And there might be really good reasons for you to stay in that situation. And so self preservation in the context might be the only lever you have. And I also don't think enough people think critically about whether it really is the only lever. You know, I talk to friends of mine who, you know, are well positioned to retire or to do something radically different, and they stay in this dynamic. And I'm like, my man, what are you doing with your life?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So, yeah. So like, you know, let's, let's also.

[A]

Complex.

[B]

It's complex. It's complex.

[A]

All right. We're always looking for new topics for the show. So if you have an organizational pattern or a different archetype of a bad boss that we didn't talk about, please shoot us a [e-mail] this show was.

[B]

Engineered by Taylor Marvin and produced by our friend Jack Van Amber At Work with the READY is created by the ready, where we help organizations around the world change the way they work. Thank you so much for listening.