At Work with The Ready – Episode 44

Title: Forget ROI: The Ethical Case for Org Design
Hosts: Rodney Evans & Sam Spurlin
Date: February 23, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin challenge the business world's obsession with return on investment (ROI) as the primary justification for organizational change. Instead, they dive into the ethical and moral imperatives for thoughtful, human-centered org design. Drawing from personal experiences, philosophical frameworks, and real-world examples, the hosts explore why designing work solely for profit is insufficient and why ethical considerations deserve a central place in how organizations evolve.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Check-In: Energy & Humanity at Work

• [01:23–03:38]
  • Rodney and Sam open up about low & mixed energy due to personal life and pre-trip stress (Rodney introduces "pre-departure collapse").
  • They highlight the human side of work, foreshadowing a central theme: designing for real people, not just for outputs.

2. Why Talk About Ethics in Org Design?

• [04:03–06:15]
  • Sam expresses frustration with always needing to justify org design through a capitalist ROI lens.
    • Quote [04:04]:
      “I found myself being really annoyed that we always have to justify… the work that we do through a capitalist lens… What if we tried to make the most compelling case…through an ethical or moral lens only?” – Sam
  • Rodney agrees, questioning why morally sound actions aren’t “good enough to stand as their own case.”

3. Clarity as an Ethical Imperative

• [06:30–08:16]
  • Rodney suggests the ethical foundation of work design is about creating clarity: making power and compensation structures visible, busting myths about individual productivity, and questioning "long-held truths."
    • Quote [07:28]:
      “There is an ethical motivation to create clarity in organizations… before we get to what you should do instead, we at least have to understand the rules of the game.” – Rodney

4. The Inescapable Nature of Work

• [08:16–10:04]
  • Sam points out that for most, work is non-negotiable: survival depends on it. This lends moral responsibility—orgs should minimize harm since people don’t opt in freely.
  • The possibility of work being meaningful and joyful should be the default, not the exception.

5. Ethical Failures Cut Across Sectors

• [10:04–11:56]
  • Rodney notes that both big corporations and mission-driven orgs (nonprofits, startups) can be ethically lacking with regard to employee well-being.
    • Quote [11:56]:
      “There are also nonprofits and art galleries and startups that are equally despicable in terms of the experience that their employees have…” – Rodney

6. Navigating a Broken System

• [11:56–14:54]
  • Rodney explains her own choices, arguing it’s about “choosing which arena of ‘fucked’ you want to play in.”
    • Quote [13:21]:
      “…It’s all fucked. And I think depending on who you are and where you are, you have to choose what fucked arena you want to play in… it’s not bad because people are bad. It’s bad because we have 150 years of designed for extraction.” – Rodney
  • Asserts that once you have privilege and agency, there is a responsibility to challenge and improve the system.

7. The Meaning of Our Attention and the Absurdity of Life

• [15:07–17:27]
  • Sam shares the insight that the total information/attention we can devote in a lifetime is finite; how organizations respect or waste that attention is an ethical matter.
    • Quote [16:23]:
      “…the moment-to-moment experience of how you process that limited amount of information IS your life. …Attention truly is all we really have…” – Sam

8. Moral Injury and Systemic Incompetence

• [17:56–19:43]
  • Sam describes the “moral injury” of employees forced to endure incompetent, bureaucratic systems—wasted effort is psychologically harmful and unethical.
    • Quote [18:58]:
      “I am forced to spend eight hours a day here. And the primary way that I experience this organization is just utter incompetence… that is psychologically harmful to people.” – Sam

9. Learned Helplessness at the Top

• [21:34–24:15]
  • Even leaders with power often feel trapped, excusing harmful systems rather than changing them.
  • Rodney’s "hot take": Highly paid CEOs must justify their privilege by upholding the system, often at the expense of critical thought or ethical reform.

10. The Hoarding of Resources & Power

• [24:15–29:23]
  • Rodney and Sam criticize the extreme pay gaps and resource concentration at the top of organizations.
    • Quote [27:47]:
      “Growth at all costs…more is good on paper for a small group of people who are unconscious. And then it sucks for everybody else…” – Rodney

11. Private vs Public Companies—Ethics & Flexibility

• [28:30–29:23]
  • Privately held or family businesses often show more ethical behavior due to freedom from shareholder pressure; publicly traded companies find it hard to act ethically when “the only game is more.”

12. The Triple Bottom Line and Unaccounted Externalities

• [29:23–31:03]
  • Sam brings up the triple bottom line—profit, people, planet—as a partial antidote to the ethical tunnel vision of standard capitalism.

13. Principles for Ethical Organizations

• [32:08–39:43]
  • Transparency: As much as possible, especially about power
  • Contesting Power: Making power explicit and discussable
  • Reasonable rewards spread: The lowest and highest paid employees shouldn’t exist in dramatically different realities
    • Quote [33:12]:
      “I don’t necessarily understand why the vacation benefits, health benefits…are so different by level…there is a spectrum…but it shouldn’t just feel inhumane.” – Rodney
    • Referenced John Rawls’ “veil of ignorance”—would you be OK working in any role in your org?
  • People as Ends: Not treating employees as mere means to profit
  • Profit-Sharing: Organizations should let employees participate in profits, whenever feasible

14. Doing Things for Human Reasons

• [41:25–44:34]
  • Not everything needs a business justification—sometimes things should happen “just for fun” or simply because they’re human.
    • Quote [43:33]:
      “Sometimes you can do things in a system full of humans that are just human for the sake of humanity.” – Rodney

15. Practical Invitations & Takeaways

• [44:55–50:32]
  • For those leading or involved in change:
    • Deeply examine motives—don't settle for purely ROI-driven change
    • Reject performative, superficial change initiatives
    • Quote [46:41]:
      “Be on the lookout for: is this actually experimentation leading to a new state, or is the initiative some sort of propaganda campaign to get people to shut up and color?” – Rodney
  • Audit your organization’s stated values against reality
    • If values and lived behaviors don’t align, don’t be gaslit—hold onto your sovereignty, even if you conform for pragmatic reasons

Notable Quotes & Moments

• [04:04] Sam: “I found myself being really annoyed that we always have to justify… the work that we do through a capitalist lens… What if we tried to make the most compelling case…through an ethical or moral lens only?”
• [07:28] Rodney: “There is an ethical motivation to create clarity in organizations…before we get to what you should do instead, we at least have to understand the rules of the game.”
• [13:21] Rodney: “It’s all fucked...depending on who you are and where you are, you have to choose what fucked arena you want to play in…”
• [16:23] Sam: “…the moment-to-moment experience of how you process that limited amount of information IS your life. …Attention truly is all we really have…”
• [18:58] Sam: “I am forced to spend eight hours a day here. And the primary way that I experience this organization is just utter incompetence… that is psychologically harmful to people.”
• [27:47] Rodney: “Growth at all costs…more is good on paper for a small group of people who are unconscious. And then it sucks for everybody else…”
• [33:12] Rodney: “I don’t necessarily understand why the vacation benefits, health benefits…are so different by level…there is a spectrum…but it shouldn’t just feel inhumane.”
• [43:33] Rodney: “Sometimes you can do things in a system full of humans that are just human for the sake of humanity.”

Practical Recommendations (with Timestamps)

• [44:55] Rodney’s Invitation for Change Makers:
  • Ask, “What are we doing here, and why?” Is it more than an ROI play?
  • Avoid participating in purely performative changes designed to uphold the status quo; agitate for substantive, ethical transformation.
• [47:32] Sam on Values Audit:
  • Audit organizational values/principles: Where are the gaps between words and reality? If you truly believed your stated value, what would you have done over the last 18 months?
• [48:33] Rodney on Sovereignty:
  • Don’t internalize gaslighting when systems don’t live up to their espoused ethics; you can conform strategically while still recognizing what’s wrong.

Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, irreverent, and refreshingly personal. Rodney and Sam bring sharp wit, vulnerability, and a touch of exasperation. They're self-aware about their own privilege and limitations, equally ready with a spicy hot take or a reference to political theory. The episode balances big philosophical questions with practical, actionable advice. There’s clarity, empathy, and a clear call to think bigger than the spreadsheet.

Summary prepared for listeners seeking the heart of this discussion: you don’t need ROI to justify treating people well or designing better work environments. Do the right thing, because it’s right.