Episode Overview

Episode Title: AUA: Can Internal Transformation Teams Really Drive Change?
Hosts: Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin
Date: December 22, 2025

In this episode, Rodney and Sam tackle a listener’s question about whether internal “transformation offices” can truly drive organizational change—or if you need to work as an external consultant to make a real impact. Drawing from their extensive experiences, they break down the effectiveness, challenges, and nuances of internal versus external roles in organizational change management. The conversation is candid and peppered with actionable advice for anyone considering a career transition into this field.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Limits of Internal Transformation Teams

• Rodney's Spicy Take: Internal teams often become reflections of the organization’s status quo and face constraints by design. Their potential for disruption is limited, leading even brilliant internal org designers to become frustrated or eventually leave.
  • "I think in general, internal teams that do what we do are constrained and sanded into becoming a mirror of whatever the company already is. And I think that’s by design." – Rodney [01:01]
• Perception of Internal Teams: These teams are perceived as cheaper, controllable, and less threatening alternatives to external consultants. While this is "true," the downside is that they lack the authority and freedom to drive substantial change.
  • "They are cheaper and more controllable and less threatening and ultimately are usually not able to have the impact that they would like to. That’s my first take." – Rodney [01:51]

2. Variability in Internal Team Authority

• Sam’s Reflection: There’s a wide variety in how well internal transformation teams function, depending on the organization. While some manage true org change, they are generally "easier to sideline" than external partners.
  • "There’s just huge variety in kind of the quality and the amount of authority that these teams have." – Sam [02:29]
• Pros & Cons of Internal vs. External: Insiders have a unique context and continuity, while externals benefit from repeated exposure to diverse situations—something critical to mastering this work.
  • "The value of being external is that you just get a lot of reps. And this work really benefits from just having a lot of experience." – Sam [03:30]
  • “I think taking that internal is more interesting than trying to go the other way around.” – Sam [03:50]

3. Strategic Placement: Where Should Internal Teams Report?

• Rodney’s Advice: If you do join an internal team, its position within the org chart matters. She advises looking for teams that report into the Strategy Office rather than HR or Ops.
  • "If you’re going to have an in house org design function, it should sit within the strategy office." – Rodney [04:31]
  • "His perspective and I share it is…Chief Strategy Officers…are coming up with very cool shit that is not executable. The one-two punch of strategy and org design…feels like a perfect pairing." – Rodney [04:48]
• Strategic Pairing: The combination of strategy formulation and org design/execution is ideal but still rare in the wild.

4. Alternative Approach: Orgs Can Start Small

• Sam’s Suggestion: You can make an impact in org design from your current role by simply adopting the mindset and tactics—without having to join a formal transformation team.
  • "There’s a lot of value to be gained from just kind of adopting the posture of the stuff that we are talking about here. In whatever role that you already have, with whatever authority you already have." – Sam [05:54]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the dilemma of internal vs. external:
  "Some of the most brilliant org designers that I have known in my career who are internal ultimately leave because they’re completely kneecapped." – Rodney [01:21]

• On the ideal location for internal transformation teams:
  "If it wasn’t going to be the CEO, I’d want it to be the Chief Strategy Officer." – Rodney [05:43]

• On practical action—start where you are:
  "There’s nothing about having to be on a team with the explicit remit of org design or whatever to do this work." – Sam [06:09]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:17] Listener Question: Can internal transformation teams really drive change, or is external consulting the more impactful path?
• [01:01] Rodney’s “spicy take”: Why internal teams face structural limits.
• [02:27] Sam’s take: Variability in authority and effectiveness of internal teams.
• [03:30] Internal vs. External: The value of “reps” and experience in org change.
• [04:31] Where internal transformation offices should sit: Strategy office, not HR.
• [05:52] Alternative advice: Anyone can wear the org designer hat, regardless of team.

Final Takeaways

• Internal teams often face built-in limitations and have less ability to disrupt than external consultants, though there are rare exceptions.
• The best chance for real impact as an internal org design professional comes from reporting to the Strategy Office, ideally under a Chief Strategy Officer.
• The skills and mindset of org design can be practiced from any role, not just within dedicated teams.
• If maximizing learning and breadth of experience is your goal, external consulting typically provides more reps and diverse contexts.

For listeners considering a career in change management:
The distinction between internal and external roles is nuanced. Choose based on the kind of impact you want to have, the appetite for risk and disruption within the organizations you're targeting, and your appetite for continuity versus variety. Above all, don’t underestimate the change you can drive by living org design values—even if it’s not your official title.