AUA: Can Internal Transformation Teams Really Drive Change?

Summary

Episode Overview

Episode Title: AUA: Can Internal Transformation Teams Really Drive Change?
Hosts: Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin
Date: December 22, 2025

In this episode, Rodney and Sam tackle a listener’s question about whether internal “transformation offices” can truly drive organizational change—or if you need to work as an external consultant to make a real impact. Drawing from their extensive experiences, they break down the effectiveness, challenges, and nuances of internal versus external roles in organizational change management. The conversation is candid and peppered with actionable advice for anyone considering a career transition into this field.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Limits of Internal Transformation Teams

• Rodney's Spicy Take: Internal teams often become reflections of the organization’s status quo and face constraints by design. Their potential for disruption is limited, leading even brilliant internal org designers to become frustrated or eventually leave.
  • "I think in general, internal teams that do what we do are constrained and sanded into becoming a mirror of whatever the company already is. And I think that’s by design." – Rodney [01:01]
• Perception of Internal Teams: These teams are perceived as cheaper, controllable, and less threatening alternatives to external consultants. While this is "true," the downside is that they lack the authority and freedom to drive substantial change.
  • "They are cheaper and more controllable and less threatening and ultimately are usually not able to have the impact that they would like to. That’s my first take." – Rodney [01:51]

2. Variability in Internal Team Authority

• Sam’s Reflection: There’s a wide variety in how well internal transformation teams function, depending on the organization. While some manage true org change, they are generally "easier to sideline" than external partners.
  • "There’s just huge variety in kind of the quality and the amount of authority that these teams have." – Sam [02:29]
• Pros & Cons of Internal vs. External: Insiders have a unique context and continuity, while externals benefit from repeated exposure to diverse situations—something critical to mastering this work.
  • "The value of being external is that you just get a lot of reps. And this work really benefits from just having a lot of experience." – Sam [03:30]
  • “I think taking that internal is more interesting than trying to go the other way around.” – Sam [03:50]

3. Strategic Placement: Where Should Internal Teams Report?

• Rodney’s Advice: If you do join an internal team, its position within the org chart matters. She advises looking for teams that report into the Strategy Office rather than HR or Ops.
  • "If you’re going to have an in house org design function, it should sit within the strategy office." – Rodney [04:31]
  • "His perspective and I share it is…Chief Strategy Officers…are coming up with very cool shit that is not executable. The one-two punch of strategy and org design…feels like a perfect pairing." – Rodney [04:48]
• Strategic Pairing: The combination of strategy formulation and org design/execution is ideal but still rare in the wild.

4. Alternative Approach: Orgs Can Start Small

• Sam’s Suggestion: You can make an impact in org design from your current role by simply adopting the mindset and tactics—without having to join a formal transformation team.
  • "There’s a lot of value to be gained from just kind of adopting the posture of the stuff that we are talking about here. In whatever role that you already have, with whatever authority you already have." – Sam [05:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the dilemma of internal vs. external:
  "Some of the most brilliant org designers that I have known in my career who are internal ultimately leave because they’re completely kneecapped." – Rodney [01:21]

• On the ideal location for internal transformation teams:
  "If it wasn’t going to be the CEO, I’d want it to be the Chief Strategy Officer." – Rodney [05:43]

• On practical action—start where you are:
  "There’s nothing about having to be on a team with the explicit remit of org design or whatever to do this work." – Sam [06:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:17] Listener Question: Can internal transformation teams really drive change, or is external consulting the more impactful path?
• [01:01] Rodney’s “spicy take”: Why internal teams face structural limits.
• [02:27] Sam’s take: Variability in authority and effectiveness of internal teams.
• [03:30] Internal vs. External: The value of “reps” and experience in org change.
• [04:31] Where internal transformation offices should sit: Strategy office, not HR.
• [05:52] Alternative advice: Anyone can wear the org designer hat, regardless of team.

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Final Takeaways

• Internal teams often face built-in limitations and have less ability to disrupt than external consultants, though there are rare exceptions.
• The best chance for real impact as an internal org design professional comes from reporting to the Strategy Office, ideally under a Chief Strategy Officer.
• The skills and mindset of org design can be practiced from any role, not just within dedicated teams.
• If maximizing learning and breadth of experience is your goal, external consulting typically provides more reps and diverse contexts.

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For listeners considering a career in change management:
The distinction between internal and external roles is nuanced. Choose based on the kind of impact you want to have, the appetite for risk and disruption within the organizations you're targeting, and your appetite for continuity versus variety. Above all, don’t underestimate the change you can drive by living org design values—even if it’s not your official title.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, y'. All. Welcome back to Outwork with the Ready. I'm Rodney Evans and that guy is Sam Sperlin.

[B]

Hello, Rodney Evans.

[A]

Every other week we are tackling one tough, thought provoking listener question and sharing a few ideas that we hope are going to help you out. Sam, what have you got for us this week?

[B]

All right, this week's question is I'm looking to shift to Org change management as the next step in my career. And after hearing episode 28 about DIY change, I have a follow up question in if outside help is such a good decision, which was the main point of that episode, I believe, why do orgs invest in having their own transformation office or equivalent? Should I plan to work for an outside consulting group if I want to truly have an impact in this field? The two external consultants are now going to answer this question.

[A]

Yeah, no bias. No bias involved in this answer at all. Um, look, here's my really spicy take and I'm sure there are people out there listening to this who are like, go pound sand right now. I think in general, internal teams that do what we do are constrained and sanded into becoming a mirror of whatever the company already is. And I think that's by design. Some of the most brilliant Org designers that I have known in my career who are internal ultimately leave because they're completely kneecapped. Like, I think it's just really difficult in that role, as we said in the DIY episode, really difficult in that role to be properly disruptive. Now, I'm not saying that it never happens. I talked to a friend yesterday who I would put in the camp of someone who's like pretty. Pretty much like a shit stirrer inside of every company that he goes to, which is cool, but like, that's a pretty edge case. Like, for the most part, I think these teams are hired or seen as. First of all, companies think they do the same thing we do, which is almost always not true. And we can talk more about that. But I think they're seen as cheaper, more controllable, less threatening versions of what we do. All of which is true. They are cheaper and more controllable and less threatening and ultimately are. Are usually not able to have the impact that they would like to. That's my first take.

[B]

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I think when I reflect back on the various kind of internal teams that I have worked with, either we have deliberately partnered with or they've kind of just also been present in places that we've been, there's just huge Variety in kind of the quality and the amount of authority that these teams have. And I think you've described, I think the most common version of that really well. I think I would say that I have experienced some of these teams that do really feel like they are doing the work that we do inside of the organization. I think they're easier to kind of sideline than we are coming in externally. But there's something to be said for potentially if you're able to find one of these opportunities inside an organization that does allow you to do this work. There is something to be said for the context and continuity that you get being on the inside of an organization. I mean even our longest projects, the stuff that we're working on, like we strive to bring it to a pleasing closing note, but it's never the end of like the thing that we were actually working on, which is not the case if you are inside an organization. The value of being external is that you just get a lot of reps. And this work really benefits from just having a lot of experience. Seeing a lot of different things in a lot of different contexts and then taking that internal I think is more interesting than trying to go the other the other way around.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, you know, everything has pros and cons. Like being an external consultant is also really difficult for a variety of reasons that you can ask us about and we'll talk about in another episode. But one thing I'd look for if you do decide that you want to go internal, I was talking to a client about this not that long ago who's one of our faves and he proposed to me and I was like, God damn, that's really smart. He was basically like, I think if you're going to have an in house org design function, it should sit within the strategy office.

[B]

Yeah, not hr.

[A]

That's right, not hr, not some like ops, not some pmo, not some change management, blah, blah. His perspective and I share it is often in large, you know what? Often in a lot of companies when you have a chief strategy officer, like my experience is like those people are often like really smart. Like yeah, those people are often like really thinking very critically about what is happening in the market and for this organization. And they're coming up with very cool shit that that is not executable. And they have a level of frustration that the organization cannot adapt to make use of their brilliance. And to me the one, two punch of strategy and org design or like work design to execute it feels like a perfect pairing. Yeah, because the strategy office is not resourced to nor is the skill set the same frankly, to actually then go out into the organization and make it happen. And so I don't have good examples of companies that are doing this yet, but that's what I'd be looking for if I was going internal and I was going to report to a C team member. If it wasn't going to be the CEO, I'd want it to be the Chief Strategy Officer.

[B]

Yeah, I like that a lot. One last thought that I guess made me think of is you can think about this as putting on a work design or org design hat in the existing role that you are already in to, there's a lot of value to be gained from just kind of adopting the posture of the stuff that we are talking about here. In whatever role that you already have, with whatever authority you already have, there's nothing about having to be on a team with the explicit remit of org design or whatever to do this work.

[A]

Yeah, I love that.

[B]

All right, that is it for this mini. If you've got a question of your own, hit us [e-mail] we will see.

[A]

You back next week for a full episode of At Work with the Ready. Thank you for being a listener.