Podcast Summary: At Work with The Ready

Episode: AUA: How to Change When People Are Loyal To The Past
Hosts: Rodney Evans & Sam Spurlin
Date: October 27, 2025

Overview

This episode explores the challenge of driving organizational change when teams agree on what needs to be accomplished, but are emotionally attached to the how (methods, rituals) and who (people, authority) of established ways of working. The discussion centers on practical strategies to introduce change in systems where legacy practices and powerful stakeholders protect the status quo.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Challenge: Emotional Loyalty to Old Ways

• Listeners asked how to foster change when the organization is willing to update goals (what), but remains attached to traditional processes (how) and people in power (who).
  • [00:08] Rodney: “How do you navigate change when most people agree on the what but are still emotionally loyal to the how and who? Especially when the old system is preserved by legacy and untouchable authority?”

2. Experimentation as a Doorway to Change

• Sam argues the best approach is to identify spaces where new processes can be safely tested.
  • [00:39] Sam: “That’s the practices, the rituals, the how we actually get after the work. And that lends itself to experimentation.”
  • Instead of arguing or mandating change, show tangible results from pilot efforts.
  • Let experimentation surface the comparative advantage of new ways of working.

3. Barriers: Expertise in ‘What’ vs. Skill in ‘How’

• Rodney observes that those with deep subject-matter expertise are often key obstacles—not out of malice, but because they lack systems-thinking and familiarity with different work methodologies.
  • [02:09] Rodney: “They’re very deep in the what and they have very little skill in the how. And so they appear attached to the way it’s been or unwilling to try something new because... they don’t understand ways of working as its own discipline.”
  • These experts typically undervalue the rigor of organizational design relative to other disciplines like finance or marketing.

4. The Power of Partnership: 'Pair Coding' for Change

• Rather than trying (and usually failing) to convert powerful subject matter experts on the ‘how,’ Rodney recommends pairing them with someone skilled in org design and experimentation.
  • [03:40] Rodney: “Can you get them a partner or a supporter or sort of crown someone their in-house pair coder, org designer to make the how work differently?”
• These partnerships allow domain experts to focus on outcomes, while work-practices experts experiment with new approaches.
  • [04:46] Sam: “It’s like a translation layer between all the various who's. And it works even better if each of the major who’s have their own version of that because ... now you’ve got much more fluidity and ability to change up the how.”

5. Building Networks Across the Organization

• Rodney illustrates with a personal client example where multiple chiefs of staff are forming a network, sharing successful initiatives, and scaling effective practices organization-wide:
  • [05:29] Rodney: “She’s starting to form a network to be like, let’s take the best of what all of us are doing and actually start to scale it across, rather than all of us reinventing this for ourselves.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [00:39] Sam: “The only way you get people to start to shift and see through the smoke and mirrors is with actual reality of hey, look, we tried this different thing and either it went really well or at least didn’t go poorly.”
• [02:09] Rodney: “They don’t understand systems thinking as a discipline that is as hard and rigorous as finance or marketing or anything else in the building.”
• [03:40] Rodney: “If you can’t change the who in the owner, can you get them a partner... their in-house pair coder, org designer to make the how work differently?”
• [04:46] Sam: “It’s like a translation layer between all the various who’s.”
• [06:10] Sam (wrap-up): “There you go. Be a mushroom.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:08 – Introduction of listener question on change and legacy systems
• 00:39 – Sam unpacks the importance of experimenting with new 'hows'
• 02:09 – Rodney on why subject experts resist change
• 03:40 – The concept of “pair coding” for organizational change
• 04:46 – Sam expands on the power of translation layers/partnerships
• 05:29 – Real-world example of building cross-functional networks
• 06:10 – Memorable metaphor: “Be a mushroom”

Episode Tone & Closing

The episode is concise, practical, and slightly irreverent, encouraging listeners to be brave, experimental, and to think of themselves as part of an organic, ever-growing network for change. The hosts stress realistic tactics and focus on collaboration rather than confrontation.

For more, contact the hosts or submit questions at: podcast@theready.com