Depthfinding: The Midnight Zone - Experience, Emotions, and Reactions at Work

Summary

At Work with The Ready: Episode Summary
Episode: Depthfinding: The Midnight Zone - Experience, Emotions, and Reactions at Work
Release Date: March 10, 2025
Hosts: Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin

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Introduction

In the fifth installment of their Depthfinding miniseries, Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin delve into the often-overlooked aspect of workplace dynamics: the Midnight Zone. This episode explores the intricate web of individual experiences, emotions, and reactions that inhabit the less visible layers of organizational life. Aimed at uncovering the undercurrents that influence team effectiveness and organizational culture, Rodney and Sam provide actionable insights to navigate and address these hidden challenges.

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Understanding the Midnight Zone

Rodney Evans opens the discussion by reflecting on the Midnight Zone's place within the Depthfinding framework. Initially perceived as the least intriguing compared to other zones like the Sunshine or Twilight, Rodney reveals that the Midnight Zone has become a focal point for listeners grappling with prioritization issues and unaddressed individual emotions.

"The Midnight Zone isn't bad stuff. It is just the individual experience that people have as consumers of everything that is happening at the depths above them."
— Rodney Evans [01:31]

Sam Spurlin concurs, emphasizing how teams often ignore the Midnight Zone, leading to dysfunctions in more visible areas. By introducing language and acknowledgment around the Midnight Zone, Sam highlights its potential as a release valve for pent-up frustrations and unspoken feelings.

"Everyone is pretty obviously being kind of buffeted by what is happening in their Midnight Zone and reacting to each other's Midnight Zone."
— Sam Spurlin [06:07]

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Impact of the Midnight Zone on Leadership and Teams

Rodney shares personal experiences illustrating the impact of the Midnight Zone, particularly within leadership teams. He discusses how leaders with fragile egos or those resistant to change can exacerbate Midnight Zone tensions, leading to organizational stagnation.

"In American capitalist society, our identities are way too fused with work... where my work identity can't be challenged because my ego is protecting it so strongly."
— Rodney Evans [09:39]

Sam adds that leaders in positions of power can intensify these issues, making Midnight Zone challenges more pronounced and harder to address effectively.

"If that person also happens to be in a position of great positional power, it's just multiplied. It's just amplified even more."
— Sam Spurlin [09:49]

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Patterns and Behaviors Indicative of Midnight Zone Struggles

The hosts identify common patterns that signal Midnight Zone turmoil within teams:

1. Resistance and Distraction: Leaders or team members may resist new initiatives by questioning their premises or introducing distractions, masking their underlying discomfort.

   "Instead of saying, I don't want to do this... they just show up and be a gigantic distracting pain in every moment."
   — Rodney Evans [21:12]

2. Toxic Positivity: Some individuals may project excessive positivity as a defense mechanism, preventing genuine engagement and constructive dialogue.

   "People who try to convince me immediately how, like, we're the same and they're the only one who understands."
   — Rodney Evans [22:25]

3. Lack of Psychological Safety: When environments lack avenues for individuals to process their Midnight Zone experiences, negative emotions persist and amplify.

   "These people are trying to stay, they're staying in it to learn and get to the next thing."
   — Rodney Evans [46:41]

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Strategies for Addressing the Midnight Zone

Rodney and Sam offer several strategies to manage and mitigate the negative impacts of the Midnight Zone:

1. Acknowledge and Label Emotions: Simply recognizing and naming the Midnight Zone can alleviate some of the pressure and lead to more constructive outcomes.

   "Even just being like, yeah, there's some Midnight Zone stuff going on here has been an interesting and useful release valve."
   — Sam Spurlin [06:07]

2. Separate Work Identity from Personal Identity: Encouraging individuals to define themselves beyond their professional roles can reduce the ego's hold and foster more adaptable mindsets.

   "Being super clear on what your identity is as a human being, regardless of where you work or what your job is, is really important."
   — Rodney Evans [31:26]

3. Provide Supportive Structures: Implementing access to therapy, coaching, or peer support within organizations can help individuals process their Midnight Zone experiences without burdening team dynamics.

   "Having access to a therapist, to a coach, to a peer circle, so that that great feeling doesn't turn into something dysfunctional later."
   — Rodney Evans [44:51]

4. Celebrate Positive Efforts: Emphasizing and recognizing individuals who strive to overcome their Midnight Zone challenges can foster a more resilient and supportive work environment.

   "Emphasize and celebrate the right things. Celebrate the people who are, like, trying something. Even when you know, and I know you guys, I know leaders out there know when the midnight zone is popping off for somebody and they are just staying."
   — Rodney Evans [45:00]

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The Positive Side of the Midnight Zone

While often viewed through a negative lens, Rodney and Sam explore the more positive and neutral aspects of the Midnight Zone. They argue that intrinsic motivations such as the desire to contribute, belong, and achieve meaning are powerful drivers within this zone.

"Where someone is fearful, the other side of that coin is probably that they want to do a good job."
— Rodney Evans [39:45]

This duality suggests that by tapping into these positive motivations, organizations can harness the Midnight Zone's potential to drive meaningful change and innovation.

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Personal Reflections and Growth

Both hosts share personal anecdotes highlighting their own Midnight Zone challenges and the journey toward self-awareness. Rodney discusses the importance of decoupling his self-worth from his professional role, while Sam reflects on his long-term association with his organization and the subconscious work required to maintain balance.

"If you are fused in this way with your work identity, you're going to get torqued when it's threatened in any way."
— Rodney Evans [34:18]

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Rodney emphasizes the necessity for leaders and team members alike to shift focus from resistance and negativity to celebrating growth and effort. By fostering an environment where Midnight Zone emotions are acknowledged and addressed constructively, organizations can enhance their overall functionality and resilience.

"The way to start to shift midnight zone feelings potentially through the Twilight Zone is to really emphasize and celebrate the right things."
— Rodney Evans [46:54]

Sam echoes this sentiment, highlighting the importance of designing organizational practices that support individual well-being and collective progress without attempting to micromanage personal emotional landscapes.

"If you are in a position in an organization where you have influence... being aware and kind of conversant in what is going on with people's midnight zones will help you design better Twilight Zone things."
— Sam Spurlin [43:38]

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Key Takeaways

• Midnight Zone represents the individual emotions and experiences that influence organizational dynamics.
• Acknowledgment and labeling of these emotions are crucial for mitigating negative impacts.
• Leadership plays a pivotal role in addressing Midnight Zone challenges by fostering psychological safety and supportive structures.
• Personal Growth and self-awareness are essential in disentangling personal identity from professional roles.
• Positive Reinforcement and celebration of efforts can transform Midnight Zone tensions into opportunities for growth and innovation.

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This episode of At Work with The Ready offers a comprehensive exploration of the Midnight Zone, providing valuable insights for leaders and team members aiming to create more adaptive and resilient organizations. By understanding and addressing the hidden emotional currents within teams, organizations can pave the way for lasting positive change.

Transcript

[Sam Sperlin]

Hey, everyone. We're getting ready to record an Ask Us Anything episode about depth finding, and we want to hear from you.

[Rodney Evans]

Indeed. If you've been listening to this miniseries and you've thought to yourself, I have one of those gnarly cross functional things that Roddy and Sam keep talking about, then shoot us a LinkedIn message or send us an email to podcasttheready.com these.

[Sam Sperlin]

Are our favorite episodes to make because we get to see what you're tackling out there in the real world. So send in your nerdiest questions and as enjoy the show.

[Rodney Evans]

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm Rodney Evans, and that guy in the birthday shirt because it was his birthday is Sam Sperlin.

[Sam Sperlin]

I mean, it's not my birthday today. That was last week, but it is a birthday present.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah. We can all still wish you happy birthday because we weren't here last week.

[Sam Sperlin]

Thank you to you and everyone currently saying happy birthday to their podcast player.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah, everybody in all of our cars and on all of our subway commutes, let's all scream, happy birthday, Sam.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Rodney Evans]

Welcome back to At Work with the Ready. This is a podcast about modernizing organizations, and we are currently in our depth finding season, exploring how the future of work meets the present moment.

[Sam Sperlin]

That's right. This is our fifth episode of the miniseries. We've been working our way through the various zones of depth finding, and today we're diving into the midnight zone.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah, I have a PSA before we check in, which is great. If you didn't start this journey with us at the beginning of the depth finding season, it's okay. You can kind of dive in anywhere. Like maybe listen to the first episode where we do an intro, and then you can pick a zone to listen to, because all the examples that Sam and I have used, we run through all of the depths with just an emphasis on one depth. I'm saying this because I think this actually might end up being the most interesting, spicy, provocative of the episodes. And if you're just, like, joining here, I don't want you to feel like, oh, fuck, I got to go listen to four other ones because you don't really.

[Sam Sperlin]

Bold move telling people not to listen to episodes of our podcast, but, hey, we'll. We'll roll with it.

[Rodney Evans]

Skip it. Just skip it. You didn't miss anything. That's how you're supposed to do this, right?

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah, we're nailing it.

[Rodney Evans]

Nailing it. I mean, we have been talking about marketing. Okay, Sam, why don't you check Us in. Yeah, I'll stop tanking our numbers.

[Sam Sperlin]

Let's check in. No, I like it. Real simple. What's been a nice moment from the past week?

[Rodney Evans]

Oh. For Valentine's Day, Ed and I had our very, very dear friends Tim and Bridget over, and we ate a delicious. Tim and Ed are both former chefs and just like, wonderful cooks, and they made us the most delicious meal. Bridget and I did not do jack, except, you know, we put on nice outfits, and I chose excellent records to spin all night. And it was so fun. It was like the coziest, snuggliest Valentine's Day with, like all of the food and then everyone on a couch together, which for my cancer soul is kind of like the perfect way to spend a holiday.

[Sam Sperlin]

Nice. All right, cool. Well, I'm gonna continue the Valentine's Day theme by saying so we already mentioned my birthday was a week ago, so on the 12th is my birthday. My wife's birthday is next week on the 26th. We have determined in our relationship that Valentine's Day is bullshit. And we don't do anything with it because it falls right between our birthdays. So we didn't do anything for Valentine's Day, but we did go out with some friends to get dinner and play trivia on my birthday. And we named our team the Birthday Boys, and we didn't win.

[Rodney Evans]

That's surprising to me that you didn't win.

[Sam Sperlin]

It was surprising to us too, because.

[Rodney Evans]

We were always the rest of the team. Dum dums. Cause I feel like you'd be really good at trivia.

[Sam Sperlin]

I'm. I am pretty good at trivia. And there's a longer story here where we thought this other table of probably average age of 75 was the table that beat us. And we were so confused because the last round was 90s songs. And they got them all right. Realized it was this other table over there. But we were like messing with this table of probably octogenarians who weren't actually playing trivia, and we thought they were.

[Rodney Evans]

It was a one sided battle. That's amazing. Anyway, today's episode, we're diving into the midnight zone. And I will be honest that when we were coming up with this framework and testing this framework, like, the Midnight Zone to me felt the least kind of interesting because I feel like we've seen it all over the place. Like Conscious leadership group has above the line, below the line. The act work has above the line, below the line. The iceberg model used in all of its form has like the depth that is unexplored like the triangle. Like, I'm just like, we've seen this a million times. Unlike the Twilight Zone the whole model started with and everything else hung off of. I didn't think we had anything really interesting to say about the Midnight Zone. And as it's turned out, we do. And it's what people want to talk about all the time. When you're not trying to talk about culture, you're not trying to talk about a whole organization. When you're taking a thin slice of work, like, why the fuck can't we prioritize? It turns out people really wanted to talk about the Midnight Zone. Reasons that we can't prioritize. Or if they don't want to talk about it, they at least want a category to label it with. So that's what we're going to dive into today. And, you know, like we've said before, the Midnight Zone isn't bad stuff. It is just the individual experience that people have as consumers of everything that is happening at the depths above them. So, Sam, why don't you kick us off with just like, what do you see? You work with a lot of leadership teams. Just talk about what is typical and compelling for you. When we start to dig into the Midnight Zone.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah, so when I'm thinking about the Midnight Zone, I am reflecting on all of the teams that I've worked with where we are seemingly pretending it doesn't exist. Everyone is pretty obviously being kind of buffeted by what is happening in their Midnight Zone and reacting to each other's Midnight Zone. But because we don't have language for it or we don't have a culture where we can acknowledge that we have individual feelings and various things going on for us in the Midnight Zone, we just don't talk about it. And then we wonder why the things that are happening in the more visible zones of the organization, Twilight or Sunshine, are so borked. And I think what has been fun about using depth finding has just been giving people a easy way to have permission to just acknowledge that it exists. And even only that, not really going into, like, lots of detail about what to do with it or what is in there, but just being like, yeah, there's some Midnight Zone stuff going on here. Has been a interesting and useful release valve for some of the teams that I've been working with.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah, I think that's really true. You know, I think in my own career, I think in the careers of a lot of people at the ready, we have made mistakes at various points of trying to dig into Midnight Zone stuff with groups that were unwilling or not ready or didn't feel safe to or didn't want to, which is absolutely their right. And I think we did that in service of the work that they said they wanted to do. And then often we're met with a lot of resistance. And so it does really feel like this nice shorthand to just be like, there's definitely stuff going on here. Yeah, we don't need to talk about it right now, but someday we probably will, you know, And I think that the reason to me, and I've said this on this podcast many times, the reason to me that the Midnight Zone is just so alive with stuff with static, with noise, with feelings, with all of the things at work is in part because it's not acknowledged and because, as you and I both know, like, what resists persists. And the more we ignore people's human experience, the more their human experience is going to scream to be acknowledged. And at least in American capitalist society, our identities are way too fused with work. Like the fact that people, and I've read the research on this, like an astonishing majority of knowledge workers really consider their title, their work, their promotions, their money, the status, all of the stuff to be a very meaningful and important part of who they are as people. And I'm not saying that we should not care about our work, but I think where it becomes problematic is when my work identity can't be challenged because my ego is protecting it so strongly because of what it would say about me if it was provoked. And I just, I see the way that organizations completely contort themselves to the least progressed, least self aware, most fragile person leading them. And that's. Then the organization that you have is the person who has the least psychological flexibility in the place.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. And if that person also happens to be in a position of great positional power, it's just multiplied. It's just amplified even. Even more.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah, you're in big trouble. And, you know, I see this show up on leadership teams in a variety of ways. I see a lot of, like, frankly, coddling leaders who have very fragile egos so that they're not provoked and so that they can stay comfortable. And I mean, who among us doesn't like to be comfortable and to feel like we're just killing it every day? And the reality is like, adaptation of any kind, evolution of any kind, growth of any kind, innovation of any kind, the precursor is discomfort. And so if you are a person, I'm not even going to really talk to teams today. If you are a person who gets rankled easily and looks to get yourself back to equilibrium immediately. We are talking about you right now like we are in this about and to you. Yeah. Because I think that people's desire for comfort ultimately holds them back from getting.

[Sam Sperlin]

What they want 100%. Because designing an organization for comfort is often counter to designing an organization for function or for anything else that we care about. And conflating creating an organization for comfort or the comfort of a couple or one person with the organization that we need to do whatever it is that we exist to do, you know, make that error in your own peril.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah. Even as you say that, some examples of the wildest shit I've ever seen are coming to mind, which are probably going to make it into this episode. So today we're not going to talk about one case study. We're going to focus on a composite of leadership teams that Sam and I have worked with, because I think that's how we get the most juice for the squeeze. The only other sort of context I want to give before we roll in is I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago. I keep regurgitating this quote, which I think was from the head of AI at Microsoft. I don't remember, but someone on a stage said, knowledge work is at peak in efficiency. And I was like, yes. Then I was like, oh. And it really rang so true to me based on what we see out there in the world. And I feel like the Midnight Zone, all of the failings, above all of the failings, to respond to the sky, to clarify the aims and assets, to instantiate and evolve great ways of working. A lot of the failures up there come down to broken stuff or unprocessed stuff or swirly difficult stuff down here. And so I just sort of want to say that as we run into it, because I think that basically ego is the reason that we are at peak inefficiency in knowledge work at a time that we should be absolutely innovating and having, like, leaps and bounds of progress.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah, I think that is an interesting idea. I can see why a head of AI may be making that. That argument. Sure. If you follow that path not too far into the future and see where that may go. But I think you're right, you know, and what is so challenging about the Midnight Zone for me as a organizational practitioner is that I am not trained nor interested in doing group therapy or even individual therapy with people. And that's not to say that's the only path for kind of like working through Midnight Zone stuff, because I do think even just acknowledgement does go a long way. But it'll be interesting in this conversation to kind of tease out, like, what is our responsibility as folks trying to improve how organizations function, to directly kind of be in the midnight zone versus just managing our own midnight zone or shining a light on others. Like, that's something I'm still thinking a lot about.

[Rodney Evans]

I love that. The first thing I want to ask you about is, and I think probably a bunch of, like, mini patterns are going to get discussed in this episode. But one that I see often is groups of leaders continuing to fiddle with Sunshine Zone stuff in response to Midnight Zone feels. And what that often looks like is like, we're going to just keep moving boxes around on the org chart, or we're going to keep changing words on Strategy Deck, or we're going to, like, change our values again because people aren't doing what we want them to be doing. And so I'm curious, like, when you see that happen, what is happening in the Midnight zone and what's happening in the Twilight Zone, do you think?

[Sam Sperlin]

Well, I think the easier answer is the Twilight Zone, which is not much. Not much is happening in the Twilight Zone. This is a pattern of a lot of activity in the Sunshine Zone, nothing happening in Twilight Zone, and a lot of unacknowledged activity happening in the Midnight Zone. So you've got these negative feelings potentially kind of boiling in your midnight zone, but not necessarily having the experience or the practice to turn those into things in the Twilight Zone that will support your Sunshine Zone and just skipping right to the things that you mentioned and inevitably not having great feelings at the end of it or only a short burst of like, oh, we nailed it before. Like, you kind of revert back to where you are because you can't address what is happening in the Midnight zone through the Sunshine Zone and vice versa. You need that interlocking zone to help translate what's going on between the two zones.

[Rodney Evans]

Can I give you a really stupid metaphor?

[Sam Sperlin]

Love it.

[Rodney Evans]

Okay. It's. It's dumb, but I think it's apt. So our dog Rosie is leash reactive. She always has been. And we have tried a million things, including her. It means she freaks out when she sees another dog on the leash.

[Sam Sperlin]

Okay. She likes her own leash, but end of other dogs.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah, like, end of the leash. Like, she wants to murder them.

[Sam Sperlin]

Okay.

[Rodney Evans]

It is generally a product of, like, trauma, which she definitely experienced before we got her. So the other night I had a terrible walk with her where she Just like, was completely out of control and not listening to me. And it had been a long time since we had had a walk like that and I was really. First of all, it's scary when it happens because she basically redlines and like goes out of her mind. And I have.

[Sam Sperlin]

She's not a tiny dog.

[Rodney Evans]

No. She's a 50 pound pit bull that can like absolutely try to dislocate my shoulder. And I feel bad for the other people and then I feel ashamed that I have this shitty dog that's out of control and you know, it's just like, it's a. And then she, she feels bad about it and she's, you know, shen. She and I are just like a mess when this, when this happens. And so later that night I started doing some Internet research, which I've done a million times. I like found this thing that was like a quiz for reactive dog parents. It was going to give a training plan and blah, blah, blah. And I did the quiz and I downloaded the training plan. This is quintessential Sunshine Zone stuff. So now I have a training plan.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yep.

[Rodney Evans]

It made the shame go away because I was like, okay, other people experienced this. There is an answer. I haven't done anything. I have done no Twilight Zone. So I have a plan. In my email, Rosie and I are, you know, fighting for our lives on the streets. I've done Twilight Zone 0. And like, I think this is basically what teams do.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. And you feel good right now, but like the next walk you go on. Yeah. It's going to be like, oh, yeah, yeah. Training plan in the email. Does not a calmer dog make?

[Rodney Evans]

No, doesn't. Turns out, doesn't. Shit. Yeah. You know that old chestnut. Yeah. So I say this because it's like so often the Midnight zone feeling is one that is really unpleasant. And we're like, what can we plan to make this feeling go away? But then if we don't do anything about it, the comfort that we get from that prescription is really, really short term.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah.

[Rodney Evans]

Just really. Yeah.

[Sam Sperlin]

Well, and now I, I think I'm better understanding why this pattern persists in organizations. Because if our modern organizations are one thing, it's fucking short term.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah.

[Sam Sperlin]

About literally everything. So if I can assuage myself in the short term, great. That gets me to the next meeting, to the next board meeting, to the next quarterly review, and let's just keep this rolling.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah. And to the next crisis. Like we've been in a conversation with a leader for a couple of weeks and the conversation with we have this really important strategic thing that absolutely cannot fail. And the last conversation was basically like, yeah, we've lost faith in it. We think it's basically like obe, like overtaken by events at this point. We're just going to kind of let it peter out. And I was like, cool. What? Like, but to your point, it's like they'll just pick a next training plan and make that be the centerpiece for everybody's anxiety and then they'll forget about that one too.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. All right.

[Rodney Evans]

I feel like that leads us to like sort of a transformation aim. Why don't you talk a little bit about this one?

[Sam Sperlin]

Okay. Yeah. So the Sunshine Zone sort of pattern is having some sort of large scale transformation aim. And you made this really interesting point when we were planning this episode, which I hadn't heard you say before, so I'm excited for you to dig into it. But you said, basically, I can tell you which C Suite executives are going to make it a big change, like almost immediately. And I'm really curious to know, like, what is it that made you say that or come to that realization and how is that connected to the Midnight Zone?

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah, I mean, it's an obnoxious thing to say, but it's also just pattern recognition. Because I've worked with, you know, definitely more than a hundred leadership teams in my career. There's two signals to me that, like, somebody's Midnight Zone is popping off in a way that is going to be really challenging. One is just straight up resistance that is masked as questioning the premise, avoidance and distraction. So I'll give you an example. I once worked with a leadership team who. It was one of the worst experiences of my career. And there was a leader on that team who was so profoundly toxic and like, she would not just do a goddamn check in round. The leader of the team had said, we don't have psychological safety, we don't trust each other, we don't know each other. This is a practice that I believe we're gonna do it every week. Before the check in round started, she would be like, announcement or like, just do some crazy nonsense to disrupt the flow of the thing. I'm using this as an easy and very accessible example of a pattern we see all the time, which is someone, rather than saying, I don't get this or I don't like this, or I don't feel comfortable doing this, or I don't understand how this is going to make us better, rather than having a single question or having like a single curiosity or even Saying, I don't want to do this. Which to me is also more productive. There are people who just, like, will not. And so they just show up and like, be a gigantic distracting pain in every moment.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. And I think the key thing to keep in mind here, if you're sitting here being like, I see myself in this person. I also hate icebreakers. Most of you probably know this, but our check in rounds are not like therapy questions. They're not like, tell me your deepest fear or tell me about a recent trauma. It's like, what has your attention right now? Or, what kind of candy bar do you like? I am very careful to do very innocuous check in questions almost all the time. The only time when I don't is when it's with a team who knows me really well. They know each other really well, and they're down to, like, do something a little bit more substantive. But I'm sure you weren't showing up with anything hard hitting.

[Rodney Evans]

I wasn't like, tell me about your dad. I was. It was like, you know, I think the first check in round I ever did to keep it businessy for these people who were doing business, kabuki dancing was like, what would you like to get out of this meeting? And this person was just like, I will not. So that's one tell is when their ego is such a hard candy shell that you can just feel everything sliding right off of it. And they're just, like, unwilling to, like, be melted even the tiniest bit.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah.

[Rodney Evans]

The other tell for me is the people who are way too fired up.

[Sam Sperlin]

Oh, like, interesting.

[Rodney Evans]

The people who try to convince me immediately how, like, we're the same and they're the only one who understands. Like, those people flame out in, like, week four because it's actually coming from the same place, which is, I'm uncomfortable and I want to take control of this situation. It's just through toxic positivity rather than being a total butthead.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah.

[Rodney Evans]

But the problem is the same. The people in the C suite that early on, I'm like, you. You. You are the people who seem like they're trying to learn something. And like, the people who are, like, wrestling also. I don't care what words they say. Like, if they say words that are like, negative or nasty or whatever, I. I don't care at all if it is coming from a place of like, I'm trying to figure this out. I'm like, you doing it. Yeah, you're the one. Because, like, there's enough actual engagement there to do something with. And they're often the people who are the quietest at the beginning, who take the most notes at the beginning, who ask the most questions at the beginning, who like stay after the meeting because they are like, why did you do that thing? How is that thing gonna work? Like, those are the people that I'm like, you'll be in this a year from now and you'll be like a different leader than today.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. And if you are like me a few years ago and early in your consulting career, what you will have to watch out for is not being kind of overwhelmed by that toxic positivity person. Because early on when you're like, when my own midnight zone stuff is going on around, do I know what I'm talking about? Does anyone like me? Are we doing good work? And somebody comes at you hard with like, yeah, we are the same. I'm like, yeah, we are. But I have, as I have matured and done more of these projects, realized that is not generally the helpful person. And the ones who I would have been scared of earlier in my career end up being the biggest assets, the biggest partners in doing the work.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah. Because they're the people who want to be convinced, but not from a place of ego, from a place of learning. Like, they're the people who are like, okay, I'm listening, let's see what you got.

[Sam Sperlin]

If I'm being at all self reflective, that I am that person, I, I go, I go to conferences all the time and I'm like, I don't know if I buy it or like someone comes and does a thing and like that's interesting but like, let me do my own work to understand it. So I think I play that role when I am not on the consulting side of the desk. And I think I'm pretty great.

[Rodney Evans]

I mean everybody should be like, more like Sam Sperling, I think is the message.

[Sam Sperlin]

That's what this episode is really the.

[Rodney Evans]

Message from the Midnight zone. Be like Sam. I mean, I think the thing is like, I'm not saying this to like label and judge, but I am saying it as watch outs when you are embarking on something big because it's a long game to make a big change. And those two archetypes are mostly the problem is that going to slow you down. And if you work at the pace of the person who is the least adaptable, man, it's really rough. It's really rough to pace the change to the least cooperative person.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. Like if you've noticed that happening, there's an obvious option which is, oh, this person no longer works here. Which I don't know if that's the. The immediate or only lever to pull. But when people's midnight zones are kind of throwing the dynamic of the team into weird places, like, what do you do with that? Is that where, like Twilight Zone sorts of things have to come into play to like, translate that energy into something we can do something with?

[Rodney Evans]

I mean, I'm curious for your take on this. I think there are a couple things, and I'm taking this from like the best clients that I've worked with and how I've seen them handle. This one is I think as a leader, you have a responsibility to be declarative about what we are going to try and what you expect from people. And a lot of times leaders who are attracted to the ready are more progressive. The reason they want to work with us is because our Twilight Zone stuff is more participatory. It is meant to engage and inspire and empower and really give people a lot of autonomy to act. So the people that like, are magnetized to that tend to be the less command and control, less hierarchical bureaucrats to begin with. But I think where sometimes they tip too far is that they can be a little bit like hands off the wheel. And I think, like, you need to do both if you're in that leadership role. I have definitely seen, you know, my favorite clients over time basically be like, we are going to participate in this and it is going to happen. So, like, we are going to make this change. And here are the minimal expectations that I have of you. And then from there, I've absolutely seen them carve off the most challenging work and exclude the people who can't do it and are moving too slow. And I can think of several projects where this has been the case where my partner, sponsor, buyer, at some point was like, you know what, Just ignore those people. Like, don't worry about them. Let them just like, as my coach says, let them putter, like, let them business as usual their way to mediocrity. I have you for a limited period of time. We are going to focus our attention over here on the people who are like gonna get after it and frankly have the adaptive skill set to do so.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah, that makes sense. And then the work that that group does may change dynamics or things going on more broadly that eventually brings in more people or makes it calm down some midnight zone things for the folks who haven't been involved. But yeah, I think that's right. I think I have Fallen into inclusivity, even over progress in unhelpful ways. Sometimes I think too often, maybe just looking at a leadership team as a single unit that has some variation within it instead of an alliance of individuals who are very different from each other and maybe playing, not assuming that the only configuration is like the entirety of the team.

[Rodney Evans]

Totally. And look, I think this is like our own midnight zone stuff, right? Like when I'm working with a client, I know that like the ways of working and the ways of steering and the ways of measuring that we help people adapt to their context are really like pretty common sense stuff. I know they're anti patterns for large bureaucracies, but that doesn't mean that they're wrong. It just means that like they're not yet widely accepted. And so I think that if that is your, if that's your stance and that's your core belief, it's really easy for me to be like, oh, surely you just don't understand what I'm saying. Or obviously we would be in agreement about this. Let me stay in this dialogue argument, show me, prove it to me, blah, blah, blah, forever. Because like, it does two things to my ego. One is it makes me feel like, well, I didn't do my job right if you're not yet in the thing. And two, it makes me worry about my own ability to be successful. So I'm just like, let's do it now. Because I'm older and I've been doing this for more than 20 years, I'm a little bit like, my job on this earth is not to convince you of shit that you don't want to be convinced of. As you were. I'm gonna go over here.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah, I feel like I am, I am gaining some of that wisdom from you. I haven't been doing this as long and I think I, I don't love a fight, but also sometimes I kind of do. I don't know, like, and I'll, I'll. Yeah, let's go kind of like head to head on something. And I can, that's my own midnight zone getting activated by somebody else's and losing sight of what I'm actually there to do and what my value to this endeavor actually is. And focusing on just like winning a single person over which there's a lot of, There's a lot of people in the world and they're not all going to be on your side all the time.

[Rodney Evans]

They're just not. And like, that's their own midnight zone stuff. And if they're not asking to deal with it, or they're not articulating what it is, or they're not aware of what it is. Like, that is just not my work to do.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah, yeah, you said something a little earlier and I think I actually said it in this episode too, like, oh, you know, I'm a little bit older and learned a thing. So one implication of that is one way that Midnight Zone stuff maybe gets worked through is just through maturation or age, which really is a proxy for like, experience, having experience to think more and more. What other sorts of things come to mind though, when you're thinking about, like doing Midnight Zone work or handling your own Midnight Zone stuff?

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah, I mean, so many things. First of all, being super clear on what your identity is as a human being, regardless of where you work or what your job is, is really important because if you are fused in this way with your work identity, you're going to get torqued when it's threatened in any way. And you know, we will be trying to do the most benign at a client and see somebody just spin out and it's like, okay, well, we have now hit the third rail of your identity, which is wrapped up for some reason in this Excel spreadsheet that you told me to fit. You know what I mean? So, like that diffusion work is not nothing. And what I mean by that is like, what are the most important things to you really? And even what are the most important things about work? Like, for me, like, the most important things about my job are like, really learning and being able to be quite strategic in how I think about our company and our category and our clients and do work like creating depth finding and have like great relationships with a lot of colleagues and make a really fun podcast with you. And that doesn't have anything to do with like my position or like how much money I make or like even necessarily working at the ready. If I didn't get those things here, I would just figure out how to get them somewhere else. Because the values are not the Sunshine zone description of my job. What I actually value about my work is very clear to me. And so when I'm making trade offs, like doing something hard at the ready or doing something unpopular at the ready or whatever, I'm like, yeah, but like my values here are very much intact and work is not the most important thing to me. It's like fourth. And so I think just knowing those things so that the idea of your project being canceled, your department being downsized, your promotion not going through, your retirement happening Early. If these things aren't existential to your, like, financial stability, getting your head around what is actually important, I think is, like, a pretty good first step.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. And I think there's a lot of ways to do that. Right. Coaching, therapy, journaling, sitting quietly and looking at a wall. Like, find your own path to kind of doing that work that works for you.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah. What about you?

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah, I think. I think that's a really good one. And as you were talking there, I think they're like, this is probably one of my Midnight zone areas to work on. You know, when I think about my identity, like, it's really wrapped up in the ready in probably unhelpful ways, like, been here for a really long time.

[Rodney Evans]

Employee number one.

[Sam Sperlin]

Really. Employee number one. And really, other than my very short teaching career, my only, like, real work experience. So first major organization here from the beginning. There's a lot. There's a lot there that's probably. That has good aspects to it and unhelpful aspects to it. And I think I've been doing my own kind of subconscious work on that over the last couple of years as well. The other thing that came up for me while you were speaking was this is where the Twilight Zone things that exist in an organization can be supportive of people being able to do that work. So it's easier to do that kind of ego work on yourself if you don't feel like your financial situation is hanging by a thread, that there are support services in your organization. There is a culture where I don't have to show up at 100% perfection every single day. If you are in an environment like that, then there's no time or space or energy to do some of that midnight zone work that you were referring to.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah.

[Sam Sperlin]

Which makes you not do it, which makes the rest of the, like, how the organization functions even worse. So you get into this spiral of people not being able to do Midnight zone work, which affects everything else, which makes the Midnight Zone even more messed up and active. And that might be one of the. An interesting kind of death spiral that an organization can get into, which, in.

[Rodney Evans]

Some ways, I think what you're saying is so brilliant, Sam. And in some ways, it feels like it's by design. Like, we don't want to deal with the unseen stuff that could poke our egos. And in our incredibly strong but unspoken desire to avoid investigating any of this, we will just keep ourselves distracted in, like, pathological urgency and in, like, basically, like, fight or flight. Forever. Yeah, forever. And it's interesting because like, you know, you see this when people lose their jobs. And obviously, this is happening en masse right now. And there is so much of the midnight zone stuff that happens is not related to the finances or is not related to the job market. It is the upending of an identity. But more importantly, it is the surfacing of a decade of unprocessed shit that people are just like, oh, you know, the system that kept me from examining any of this for a decade just got ripped away from me. And now, like, here I am. Here I am with all of my resentments and all of the hopes that didn't get fulfilled and all of the successes that I want to be proud. And here's all of this stuff and nothing to keep me from looking at it, and I have no tools to do so. And, like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Sam Sperlin]

That could be the subtitle of this episode. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Sense to me. Maybe this isn't the point to pivot to it, but I am curious because I know when we were initially pulling it together, we don't write anything about how the midnight zone has to be negative. We have been overwhelmingly kind of taking the. The negative, like, what's the negative stuff that lives in people's midnight zones? So I wonder if it makes sense to just, like, take a couple of minutes to try to articulate the kind of more positive or neutral side of, like, what is going on inside midnight zones and how people and organizations can use that as well.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. You start. I've been talking a lot.

[Sam Sperlin]

I guess one way to dig into the more positive side of, like, what's going on for people is, like, all right, well, what are positive feelings and emotions and the positive experience for people at work? And actually, you were starting to hit some of them at the end there. But, you know, we firmly believe people have intrinsic motivation to show up, to work hard, to work on things that matter, to be a reliable teammate, to help people, to help, to pull them up when they need it. So when I'm thinking in an organization and knowing that those things are floating around in people's midnight zones, they may be overshadowed by the more negative things. Because of our very human brains that are primed to notice and care about the negative things more. I start to wonder, like, well, what are the Twilight Zone moves and what are the aspirational Sunshine Zone things that really speak to those internal parts of our midnight zone that are positive, that want to be seen, and if they are, and they have a path to, like, coming out, they will, and they will influence what is going on in an organization. So that's. I guess that's my opening gambit for thinking about Midnight Zone in a more positive way.

[Rodney Evans]

Yeah. I feel like any negative Midnight Zone thing is one side of a coin. So, like, where someone is fearful, the other side of that coin is probably that they want to do a good job.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah.

[Rodney Evans]

Where someone is resistant, the flip side of that coin is probably that they're unsure or uncertain, but want a good outcome and are worried that the new thing won't get it. Like, most people aren't shitty for the sake of being shitty, and most people don't have shitty feelings that aren't related to a value that is felt to be under attack in some way.

[Sam Sperlin]

Right.

[Rodney Evans]

So, first of all, noticing that, like. And I've had to do a lot of work around this myself at the ready. When I see shenanigans or I hear about things that my initial reaction is anger, I usually sit with it for a while to be like, what is the flip side of this coin? Because the flip side of this coin is probably something that's not so malicious and. Or, you know, stupid, to be frank. And I. I want to. I want to tell you a quote from my coach, Gareth, because we were having a conversation about one such shenanigan very recently.

[Sam Sperlin]

You can just say it was me.

[Rodney Evans]

Oh.

[Sam Sperlin]

Oh, Sam. Shenanigans.

[Rodney Evans]

Wouldn't that be funny if I was like, it was you? As it turns out, no, I'm looking for it because I've DMed it to, like, six people in the last week. Here's what Gareth said to me. He said, the people who are the most demanding and entitled, it is their defense against feeling inadequate. So the positive side of that is people want to feel adequate. Like, they. Because they want to contribute, they want to do great work. They want to have meaning. They want to belong. Like, those aren't bad things. Now, the fact that their feelings of inadequacy lead them to behaviors that are dysfunctional and fucking annoying is a problem. But what I try to sit with when I see the thing is, like, what's going on here? And it's always something like that. It's always something like a desire unfulfilled. And that I think it's a lot easier to, like, tap into empathy when you go one click beyond, why is this butt, head, butt heading? And go kind of like, what is the unnamed Midnight Zone thing that's happening here? Not because we need to talk about it. Not because I need to go address it. Not because I need to go convince them that they should feel otherwise, but just because if I can do my own midnight zone work to not be torqued by that so that I can stay stable and I can, like, keep a hand on the till here, that's going to be better for everybody than if every time I hear something shitty, I, like, run after it to try to change it.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I'm reflecting on how this entire episode we haven't been talking about changing people's midnight zones. It's like, it cannot. Zones are going to midnight zone. And you can change your own midnight zone about how you react to others midnight zones. And I think if you are in a position in an organization where you have influence, and I would say most people do, on Twilight Zone things, small Twilight Zone things, big Twilight Zone things, being aware and kind of conversant in what is going on with people's midnight zones will help you design better Twilight Zone things or at least help you understand why certain Twilight Zone things aren't having the effect that you hoped they would. But it's not about, like, going around and, like, I'm gonna fix your midnight sound and fix your midnight sound and fix your midnight sound, and then we'll all be good. Because that's not. I don't think that's possible.

[Rodney Evans]

It's not possible. And it's a waste of time. And it's not the leader's job. Like, the leader's job isn't to be the organizational therapist, nor is it HR's job, nor is it anybody's job, unless you literally have an organizational therapist on staff that is there to help people process their feelings. So my Twilight Zone recommendation here is like, get some things in place so that people can go somewhere and process whatever their midnight zone stuff is so that they don't project it onto the organization or the team or the leader or places that it doesn't belong. Including, incidentally, the positive stuff. You know, like, how often do you hear from someone? I'm really fired up and I'm really ambitious and I have a really clear vision for how this could go. And I'm being held back because of this jacked up organization I work in and unable to contribute dope. Love to see that energy. And also, how is there a Twilight Zone practice, that person having access to discretionary to a therapist, to a coach, to a peer circle, to whatever, so that that, like, great feeling doesn't turn into something dysfunctional later.

[Sam Sperlin]

Yeah. All right, Rodney. I feel like we're coming to the end here, but is there anything else bouncing around in your head that we haven't talked about yet?

[Rodney Evans]

The parting request that I would have particularly for leaders, but honestly, for anyone who's working in any group anywhere is like, the way to start to shift midnight zone feelings potentially through the Twilight Zone is like, really emphasize and celebrate the right things. And what I mean by that is not just the outcome. Like, celebrate people doing the things that are making them uncomfortable, but they're doing anyway. Celebrate the people who are, like, trying something. Even when you know, and I know you guys, I know leaders out there know when the midnight zone is popping off for somebody and they are just staying. They're just duking it out, you know, they're staying in it to learn and get to the next thing. Like, celebrate that and don't rush to the people who are having the worst experience and trying to drag everyone down. Because A, negativity just like gets amplified so greatly over anything positive in the organization. B, we don't want to signal to people that the worse they behave, the more attention they get. And most importantly, I said this to a leadership team like last week. I feel like an ingredient in people's development that is under discussed is the belief in them from someone that they admire or they believe in or they've learned from or they see as some sort of totem of authority or a model of something. Telling someone that you know them and you believe in them is probably like as or more important than what skill they actually have to do the thing. If it's true. Like if it's true.

[Sam Sperlin]

And even just that you see them, like, totally is.

[Rodney Evans]

That's a real thing. And so like, you know, I. I want to shift like the attention from. Go argue with people who are resistant about why to like really amplify and celebrate in your opera them, in your retrospectives, in your woot channel, in all of your places. The people who are just like, like, I'm uncomfortable and I'm doing it anyway because those are the people who you want to be your entire organization.

[Sam Sperlin]

Hell yeah.

[Rodney Evans]

Hell yeah. All right, Sam. Did we do it?

[Sam Sperlin]

We did. We sure did. Look at us go. All right, all right, everyone, you know the drill. Please like rate and review us on YouTube or Apple Podcasts or wherever those things are happening. And if you have a gnarly cross functional problem you'd like to hear about on this show, this very show, this very show, shoot us an [e-mail] the.

[Rodney Evans]

Music for this miniseries is Yagadang by BG and Coyote Radio. This show is produced by the wonderful Jack Van Amberg and engineered by Taylor Marvin. Our team at the ready makes it all happen by helping companies solve their problems. Biggest problems out there. So we can share their stories right here. Thanks for listening. This was the last zonal episode and next week we are on to a whole new idea, so stay tuned.