#19: The Great Hesitation with Sue Keith, Landrum Talent Solutions

Summary

B2B Agility™ Episode #19: The Great Hesitation with Sue Keith, Landrum Talent Solutions

Released: July 23, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode #19 of B2B Agility™, host Greg Kihlström engages in an insightful conversation with Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions. This episode delves into the current dynamics of the U.S. job market, particularly focusing on the phenomenon Sue terms "The Great Hesitation." Together, they explore the contrasting conditions between hourly and corporate jobs, the shift towards flexible staffing, and the implications for both employers and job seekers.

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Background: Sue Keith and Landrum Talent Solutions

Sue Keith provides a comprehensive overview of her role and the evolution of Landrum Talent Solutions. She details the company's rebranding journey following the acquisition of Cirrus Talent by Landrum HR, a longstanding HR services firm in Florida.

Sue Keith [01:59]:
"About 18 months ago, our firm Cirrus Talent, which specializes in marketing positions, was acquired by Landrum HR... Just this past July 1st, we announced that we had rebranded the new business unit to Landrum Talent Solutions."

Despite initial reservations about changing established brand names, Sue emphasizes the strategic advantages of unifying under a single brand to enhance market presence and streamline go-to-market strategies.

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The Tale of Two Economies

Sue introduces the concept of the "tale of two economies," highlighting the stark differences between hourly and corporate job markets in the U.S.

Sue Keith [03:40]:
"We continue to have record low unemployment... businesses are struggling to find hourly workers. However, in the corporate world, we continue to see hiring freezes and ongoing layoffs."

While hourly positions remain in high demand with persistent shortages, corporate roles are facing contraction, particularly in marketing departments. Sue attributes this disparity to factors like prolonged economic adjustments and shifting business priorities post-COVID-19.

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The Great Hesitation: A Shift from the Great Resignation

Building on the aftermath of the Great Resignation, Sue introduces "The Great Hesitation," a term that encapsulates the current reluctance among companies to commit to full-time hires.

Sue Keith [05:33]:
"I love this term the Great Hesitation because it's such a nice play on the Great Resignation... It's really rare to find new headcount approvals now."

The Great Hesitation is driven by several factors:

1. Reckoning from Previous Hiring Sprees:
   Companies are reassessing the aggressive hiring strategies employed during 2021-2022, recognizing instances of overhiring and mismatched roles.

2. Increased Competition Among Candidates:
   With an influx of applicants—sometimes over 500 candidates per position—hiring managers fear overlooking top talent, leading to prolonged decision-making processes.

3. Shift to Flexible Staffing:
   Organizations are increasingly opting for contract or contract-to-perm positions as a way to mitigate risks associated with full-time hires.

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Impact on Candidates: Navigating a Competitive Landscape

The Great Hesitation has significantly impacted job seekers, making the job market more challenging and competitive.

Sue Keith [07:55]:
"The competition for full-time jobs is just really high... We've seen a market increase in requests for contractors and contract-perm positions."

Key Implications for Candidates:

• Rise of Contract Roles:
  More candidates are considering contract or contract-to-perm positions as a strategic entry point into organizations.

• Extended Hiring Processes:
  Prolonged interview stages with numerous rounds can deter candidates, as illustrated by Sue's anecdote of a qualified candidate declining an offer due to lengthy decision timelines.

• Increased Risk Aversion:
  Employed candidates are less likely to leave their current positions for uncertain opportunities, preferring the stability of existing roles.

Sue Keith [11:04]:
"If you are currently employed, you are very unlikely to leave to take a maybe job which is a contract to perm position because there's just no guarantees."

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Impact on Companies: Operational Strains and Hiring Challenges

The Great Hesitation has broader repercussions for companies beyond just the hiring process.

Sue Keith [15:11]:
"Marketing teams are running skeletal crews... People are getting burned out because there's so few people, but it's the same amount of work, maybe more."

Key Challenges for Companies:

• Operational Burnout:
  Existing teams are stretched thin, often handling multiple roles without additional compensation, leading to increased burnout and decreased productivity.

• Extended Time-to-Hire:
  Lengthy hiring processes can result in missed opportunities, as talented candidates may accept offers elsewhere or lose interest over time.

• Perception of Indecisiveness:
  Protracted decision-making can signal to candidates a lack of organizational decisiveness, potentially deterring top talent from accepting offers.

Sue Keith [16:33]:
"Candidates who are employed are staying put... They are very risk-averse."

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Advice for Employers and Job Seekers

As the job market continues to evolve, Sue offers targeted advice for both employers and job seekers to navigate the complexities of The Great Hesitation.

For Employers:

Sue Keith [18:51]:
"Please treat your candidates with dignity and respect... Just remember, make sure everybody is treated with dignity and respect and they get some sort of closure."

• Respect the Candidate Experience:
  Ensure transparent and timely communication throughout the hiring process to maintain trust and engagement with candidates.

• Leverage Flexible Staffing Wisely:
  Use contract or contract-to-perm roles as strategic tools to evaluate candidates before committing to full-time positions.

For Job Seekers:

Sue Keith [18:44]:
"We're seeing glimmers of hope... hiring will pick up in Q4."

• Be Open to Flexible Opportunities:
  Consider contract or contract-to-perm positions as viable pathways to secure roles and demonstrate value within organizations.

• Stay Optimistic and Proactive:
  Monitor industry trends and remain active on platforms like LinkedIn to capitalize on emerging opportunities, especially as hiring trends are expected to improve in the latter part of the year.

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Conclusion

Episode #19 of B2B Agility™ offers a thorough exploration of the current employment landscape through Sue Keith's expert lens. The introduction of "The Great Hesitation" highlights a pivotal shift in hiring practices, influenced by past hiring excesses and current economic uncertainties. Both employers and job seekers must adapt to this evolving environment by embracing flexibility, maintaining clear communication, and fostering respectful interactions. As the market shows signs of recovery, there remains cautious optimism for a balanced and robust job market in the near future.

For more insights and industry discussions, subscribe to B2B Agility™ and explore additional episodes here.

Prepared by Greg Kilstrom

Transcript

[Sue Keith]

The Agile Brand.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Welcome to the B2B Agility Podcast where we look at the factors that drive success in B2B marketing with a focus on the people, processes, data and platforms that make B2B brands stand out and thrive in a competitive marketplace. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, marketing, operations and CX, best selling author and speaker. Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that my latest book, Priority is seven Principles for Better Strategies, Decisions and Outcomes is now available. In it, I give ideas and insights for leaders and teams that need to make meaningful progress on their priorities. After all, our priorities are what we do, not what we say we'd like to do. You can find Priority as action on.

[Sponsor]

Amazon or learn more on my website.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Greggkilstrom.Com now let's get on to the show. Just a note before we get started, this episode ran earlier on my other podcast, the Agile Brand, but I thought it was a great fit for this B2B focused show as well.

[Sponsor]

I hope you enjoy in this special episode brought to you by Landrum Talent Solutions, formerly Cirrus Talent, a national recruiting firm specializing in marketing and HR positions, We're going to talk about a few things. Remember the Great Resignation?

[Host/Interviewer]

Well, now it's more like the Great.

[Sponsor]

Hesitation, with many managers being reluctant to hire based on a number of factors. Also, in today's labor market, we observe a striking contrast between different sectors presenting unique challenges and strategies. Joining us to shed light on these dynamics is Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions. Sue, welcome to the show.

[Sue Keith]

Thanks Greg. It's nice to be back.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, always, always enjoy talking with you. So for those that didn't catch the last episode you were on, why don't you give a little background on yourself as well as on Landrum Talent Solutions?

[Sue Keith]

Sure. I am a Corporate Vice President with Landrum talent solutions. About 18 months ago, our firm Cirrus Talent, which specializes in marketing positions, was acquired by Landrum HR, a 50 year old HR services company in Florida. A few years prior to our joining Landrum hr, they had acquired hrq, a search firm that specializes in HR positions. And just in January we brought the two teams together. So Serious Talent HR Q became a national specialized recruiting firm for marketing and HR roles. At that point we realized it didn't make sense for us to have two brands in the market. So just this past July 1st we announced that we had rebranded the new business unit to Land and Talent Solutions. And you know, we've had, I've had Several people ask, well, isn't it sad to, you know, give up your company name after all these years? And I say it's a little bit of sweet. But ultimately, we're all marketers, so this was an easy decision for us because it made strategic sense for the business for a go to market strategy. And it was fun to work with an outside agency again and work on our naming strategy and messaging.

[Host/Interviewer]

That's great. And congrats on that change as well. So let's dive in here and talk about a couple of things that I mentioned at the top of the show. First, I want to talk about what you've referred to as the tale of two economies. And so as the US Job market exhibits starkly different conditions between hourly and white collar jobs, let's talk about some of the reasons behind these differences. So can you elaborate on what you describe as this tale of two economies in the current US Job market, particularly the contrasting situations for hourly versus corporate employees?

[Sue Keith]

Absolutely. So I think we all know whether it be from ongoing media coverage or the fact that every restaurant you go to is still really understaffed. Just last week I went to, I met a client for lunch and the bartender was the waiter for the entire restaurant.

[Host/Interviewer]

Wow. Yeah.

[Sue Keith]

So we continue to have record low unemployment, although, you know, according to Jay Powell, it's creeping up a little bit and businesses are continuing to struggle to find hourly workers. And the key word in what I just said is hourly. So let's call that economy number one. However, the story is really different for corporate employees. So what I'll call economy number two, in the corporate world, as I think we've all heard, we continue to see hiring freezes, ongoing layoffs, which we actually first started seeing in late 2022 and got really bad last year. So we're Talking about about 18 months still happening and still this kind of contraction, if you will, in the market. So unfortunately, marketing has taken a lot of the brunt of it. And as one CMO said to me recently, when the CFO starts looking for ways to cut expenses, marketing is the first stop in her journey. And sadly, I can't say the number of really talented marketers our team meets every day who can't find a job. It's been months and they apply for jobs and they see there's 500 other of their friends also applying for the same job. And so it's been a really tough environment and a prolonged tough environment for job seekers.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. And so building, building on that. Another term that I mentioned at the top of the show the Great Hesitation, something that you had, you had mentioned before. You know, we've recently been through the Great Resignation. Now we're talking Great Hesitation. With companies increasingly hesitant to commit to full time hires, opting instead for flexible staffing, what are some of the key factors contributing to this cautious approach that companies are taking towards full time employees?

[Sue Keith]

I love this term the Great Hesitation because it's such a nice play on the Great Resignation as you mentioned and unfortunately I can't give credit to the person I first heard it say because I can't remember who it was, but it is brilliant and spot on. I was calling it kind of not as eloquently the Great Gun shyness. So I'll go with great hesitation. So there's a few things that are driving this. So first, first, I think there's still an ongoing reckoning in response to the hiring craze that happened during 2021 and 22. So it was post Covid, the world decided that everyone decided the world wasn't going to stop spinning and there was just, it was a lot of hiring and I would almost argue it was almost reckless hiring. So people were getting hired with titles and salaries that their experience simply didn't warrant. For just one example, we were doing a kickoff call with a hiring manager and our HR contact for a long time client, this is back in 21, early 22 and asked the standard question of okay, what's the salary for the role? And the HR person kind of ducked my question, which is really unusual and I asked it again and ducked it again. And then we discovered after the call is because the salary for the new position was going to be higher than the hiring manager's current salary. So it was kind of crazy things like that. And so there's a bit of a reckoning in that. You know I was just talking to somebody yesterday, a CM, a former CMO said yeah, I over hired in 21, I'll be the first to admit it now. And then in response to that, you know, getting a new headcount approved, I'm calling it, it's like finding a Willy Wonka golden ticket. It's really rare. And and on top of that hiring manager, because they've got this rare golden ticket, they're really worried they won't make a good hire, especially if they were burned out and hiring someone that maybe didn't work out a couple years prior. So and then related to number two, with so many candidates applying for jobs, you know I mentioned there are 500 plus applications for jobs on LinkedIn or on the company's website. Hiring managers are reluctant to make an offer in case they've overlooked someone better. You know, they're worried they may have missed someone in that stack of 500/plus applications that's virtually sitting next to them on their desk.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. And so hiring obviously also is a two sided marketplace. So you know, not only the company's hiring, but flipping to the candidate perspective, what is this great hesitation meant for the candidates that are on the job market?

[Sue Keith]

It's made it tough. The competition for full time jobs, as I just mentioned, is just really high. You're competing with other really strong candidates. So what we've seen in response to the hiring freezes and these companies hesitation to hire full time employees as you mentioned, and we're seeing this for both marketing and HR roles, we've seen a market increase in requests for contractors and contractor perm positions, including lower level roles which is very atypical. So candidates should think about whether they're opening contracting. It's a great way to get your foot in the door, call it as an addition and it's, you know, it's a try before you buy for both sides. It also gives you an opportunity to put something on your resume as opposed to having, you know, just a big gap since your last full time position. So it's, it's definitely something you should think about ahead of time because a recruiter like us or one may call you and ask you to be interested in that. We've also seen, I think everyone's seen the rise in the popularity of the term fractional. Whether it be fractional, cmo, cfo, CRO, you know, it seems like pretty much any marketer who's in between business cards, as we like to say, has hung their fractional shingle. And then one more thing that the candidates should be ready for. The great hesitation as we're calling it, has caused the hiring process to be extended for both contractors and full time candidates with numerous rounds of interviews that can take weeks if not more. We used to call contracting, dating and full time positions marriage and it seems to have blurred now that even a company who's looking to bring in a contractor for perhaps a short period of time or they're not sure if it's going to become a full time position, they're treating the interview process as though they were hiring the person for a full time position.

[Sponsor]

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[Host/Interviewer]

And so kind of what you're mentioning is it's not only beneficial to the hiring company, but it can also be beneficial to the candidate.

[Sponsor]

Right.

[Host/Interviewer]

I mean it's there's because everyone's is it, is it great hesitation kind of on both sides. In other words, as far as like candidates, not necessarily candidates almost preferring being contractors to start as well, to kind of test the job.

[Sue Keith]

It's I don't know if it's that as much as it's hey, I'm out of a job and this is an opportunity. I will say if you want to apply the great hesitation to candidates if it's if you have a job, if you currently employed, you are very unlikely going to leave to take a what I'll call a maybe job which is a contract to perm position because there's just no guarantees. So you're not going to leave something that's safe or at least relatively safe these days for, for a contract position. And there's a lot of folks also not being willing to change from their current full time job to another full time job just because they've seen, you know, where they are is safe and known and moving to a new company is not as safe. And you know, I've talked to a lot of marketers who move to a new company just to be laid off a couple months later.

[Sponsor]

Yeah.

[Sue Keith]

So the great hesitation is definitely applying if someone is currently employed. There's just they're being very risk averse.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Makes sense. And so you know, building on that, I mean with the Increase in, from the, from the hiring side, increase in requests for contractors and fractional. You've mentioned some of the reasons here, but you know, even for fairly extensive and very visible roles, you know, why, why are companies more comfortable with this than they have been in the past?

[Sue Keith]

I think, yeah, I think it goes back to everybody's, the hesitation in either. There's just a lot of angst right now about hiring. And so you know, many companies have frozen headcount or laid off portions of the marketing team but the work still needs to get done. And I would say there's a lot of marketing teams really running a skeletal crews right now. People are getting burned out because there's so few people, but it's the same amount of work, maybe more. The expectations might be even higher. So CMOs are able to get approval to bring in a contractor. Cause typically that budget is in a different place than your kind of HR headcount budget. So you're pulling, you're just using some of your discretionary marketing dollars to hire a contractor as opposed to let's say running a campaign. So what they're saying is okay, let's bring in someone on a contract to perm basis, let's hope they excel in the job and then the CMO can make the case for converting that person to a full time employee. So if the CEO has been hesitant to commit to full time, you could say okay, this person has proved that they're, you know, they're going to excel in this job. And so that, that seems to be the approach a lot are taking is they're being able to get approval to bring in a contract to perm, but not the, not a direct full time hire. I mentioned too, this is happening at lower level positions which is, has been, I mean it's very unusual. We haven't seen this in my 11 years of doing this and partially because in a, you know, I'll call it a normal market entry level or early career employees are, they're in full time jobs, they're looking for a W2, they're looking for benefits, et cetera. So they're not. And they're not, as I mentioned, they're not going to leave a safe place, go to a maybe job. But today given the market, a lot of these folks with three to five, three to seven years of experience are interested and available to do contract to perm because they've been laid off. So on the flip side, we've also seen a request coming in for you know, pretty, as you mentioned, visible roles where you know, there's a lot of interaction with external stakeholders or, you know, somebody's just visible. Visible within the company. And we just. In previous years, you wouldn't have seen a company bringing a temporary. Temporary resource to fill that type of position.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, you've touched on this a bit already, but just wanted to also talk about this. This hesitation, it's not just being cautious and it's not just dragging. Dragging out the process from the candidate perspective either. It's having impacts on companies. Right. Themselves. So, you know, can you talk a little bit more about the impact that the. These prolonged hiring processes and, you know, kind of the hesitation is having on both the companies as well as the candidates?

[Sue Keith]

I mentioned the burnout. They are just marketing teams or individuals on marketing teams who just feel like they're doing three jobs in one. And there's been no additional compensation for those two additional jobs. And I also mentioned that the interview process seems to be taking even longer than normal, which already feels long for anybody going through an interview process. And so I'll share a cautionary tale for hiring managers. You know, we're in the midst of doing a search for a pretty senior communications person, and we found some of the hiring manager loved her team. You know, the panel interview loved her. The CEO loved her. But the interview process took really long. And by the time they extended our candidate the offer, things had evolved at her current company. She really started rethinking her client's commitment to the job because it was taking so long. And so despite the offer from our client being more money and better benefits, she ultimately declined the offer. And so there's another thing too, for HR hiring manager, excuse me, to consider, which may have played a role in the story I just told you. And it's what goes back to what we just talked about. Candidates who are employed are staying put.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sue Keith]

They're reluctant to make the move to the unknown. So in this case, you know, our candidate, you know, wasn't unhappy where she was. She was just. This was a really nice opportunity for her, but in the end it was safer for her to stay. Stay where she was, despite a nice offer.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Well, I mean, doesn't it stand to reason that from the candidate's perspective, you know, if a company is taking so long and dragging things out, first of all, there's just more time for other opportunities to arise, even if they're at the same company. But also, it doesn't exactly make the. The hiring company look particularly decisive.

[Sponsor]

Right.

[Host/Interviewer]

I know there's sometimes there's extenuating circumstances and all manner of things. So it's not, it's not a one size, you know, fits all description. But I can see how from a candidate perspective, it kind of, it might cause some alarm of not only are they, does it take them, does it, the decision process drag out a lot, but, you know, it might raise alarms that, that might not otherwise be there. Would you, would you say that?

[Sue Keith]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's what played a factor in the story I just told. Yeah. If you think, well, they can't make a decision, then they must. How serious are they about the role?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sue Keith]

And if, and then you start thinking, well, maybe they're talking to somebody else.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Sue Keith]

And so maybe I don't have this locked in. And so now maybe I'm going to, you know, it's just like there's so many things that can go through a candidate. I mean, we're all human and a candidate, you know, if you don't have information, you're going to make, you know, you're going to fill in the gaps with your own assumptions. And so we try to do our best to, you know, manage our candidates through the process. But yeah, it's, it definitely can cause a question about, okay, is the company serious about the role? Does my future boss actually have decision making authority here? You know, and it starts, it just can raise a bunch of pink flags.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, sue, it's always great to have you on the show and love to hear your perspective on where things are at. One last question for you before we wrap up. As you are seeing trends evolving and, and, and things in the job market, what advice would you give to maybe two, two pieces of advice. So, you know, one for employers and one for job seekers that are navigating this, you know, continually complex job market.

[Sue Keith]

So for job seekers, I would say we're seeing glimmers of hope. So I've been, I've been the voice of doom through this whole conference.

[Sponsor]

Right, right.

[Sue Keith]

But we're seeing glimmers of hope. So if you go on LinkedIn, which you're all job seekers are spending a lot of time on LinkedIn, you're seeing a lot, you know, with that LinkedIn graphic that they have a new job. So that's, you're seeing movement there. We've also talked to several of our VC&P contacts who think hiring will pick up in Q4. So I know that's a little bit of ways, but we know we're in the summer lull right now. For hiring anyway. But we're feeling cautiously optimistic about this fall and as a good leading indicator are now no longer sister company HRC being a part of Lander Talent Solutions. But they specialize in HR roles and they've seen clients coming back to us to ask us to help rebuild their in house talent acquisition teams. So yeah, it's actually a little funny. We have clients who hire our recruiters to find their, their recruiters.

[Host/Interviewer]

Nice.

[Sue Keith]

But that what this means though, if they're building back their in house recruiting teams, they're planning to, they're gearing up to hire. So I think that's a really positive sign. You know, our ultimate hope is we get back to some level of normal. And now that we're post Covid, nobody seems to who knows what that means. But the way I simply describe it is a state where some companies are hiring and some companies are firing at any given time where there's just a better balance between the two. I think we'll get there certainly for 2025. And then the final thing I said, you said advice for hiring managers. Here's what I'd like to say. Please treat your candidates with dignity and respect. You know, there's a, there's a human behind every resume and that can sometimes get forgotten in the, the, the fray of interview interviewing and interviewing a lot of people. So just remember, just make sure everybody is treated with dignity and respect and they get some sort of closure. Whether it be just a simple, you know, we've gone a different direction or something, but just something that doesn't leave them, leave them hanging. Because being on the job market is, is A really, really no. 1. Let's just put it this way, nobody wants to be in between jobs.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. No, that's, that's, that's great advice. Well, again, I'd like to thank Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions, for joining the show. You can learn more about sue and Landrum Talent Solutions by following the links in the show notes.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Thanks again for listening to the B2B Agility podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show more easily. You can access more episodes of the show at www.b2b agility.com. that's b2b agility.com while you're there, check out my series of best selling agile brand guides covering a wide variety of marketing technology topics. Or you can search for Greg Kilstrom on Amazon. Until next time, stay focused and Stay agile.

[Sue Keith]

Brand.