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B2B Agility with Greg Kihlström™: MarTech, E-Commerce, & Customer Success
#26: Creating B2B content that engages and converts with Ryan Estes, Co-Founder of Wildcast
00:25:07
In B2B marketing, creating content that not only engages but also converts is crucial. Today, we're joined by Ryan Estes, Co-Founder of Wildcast, who has leveraged podcasting as a powerful tool in this realm. He'll share insights into prioritizing...
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- [00:00]
A
Breaking News T Mobile Network outperforms expectations in all sectors because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlocked device, credit service support in 90 days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required card has no cash access and expires in six months.
- [00:31]
B
The Agile Brand welcome to the B2B Agility Podcast where we look at the factors that drive success in B2B marketing with a focus on the people, processes, data and platforms that make B2B brands stand out and thrive in a competitive marketplace. I'm your host Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on MarTech marketing operations and CX, bestselling author and speaker. Now let's get onto the show. In B2B marketing, creating content that not only engages but also converts is crucial. Today we're joined by Ryan Estes, co founder of wildcast, who has leveraged podcasting as a powerful tool in this realm. He's going to share some insights into prioritizing ideas, maintaining consistency, and adapting to the latest marketing trends in creating content. Ryan, welcome to the show.
- [01:27]
C
Thanks Greg. I'm happy to be here.
- [01:29]
B
Yeah, looking forward to talking about all this with you. Why don't we get started though with you sharing a little bit about your background, how you came to co found Wildcast, and what got you into podcasting and B2B marketing?
- [01:43]
C
Yeah, you bet. I'm happy to. So I've been a podcast fan since the inception and a longtime podcaster. I started way back in iPhone2 and started doing podcasts and have built a career around podcasting. Um, my previous company, Kitcaster, also current, has worked in podcasts as far as like booking guests, particularly in funded startup founders on podcasts. About five years ago and then probably about a year ago, we really got full swing into Wildcast. One thing that we saw particularly for B2B is that podcast audiences are probably the most undervalued audiences in the market, full stop. What we found booking guests for podcasts is that they were just deriving just a ton of customers. They were using podcasts to raise rounds of financing, they were using podcasts to recruit talent. And what we, what we kind of learned is that, you know, people really give a high amount of Their attention to long form podcasting, particularly in the B2B tech SaaS space, which is a little bit unique. I think if you're thinking about podcasts, usually the first thing that's going to come to mind is True Crime Rogan or Huberman. But a lot of us are using podcasts really to discover tools and find solutions for what's happening in our businesses. So those very small audiences we found very potent for, for founders in particular, and for large enterprise brands as well. So we set out to make Wildcast, which is essentially like a podcast advertising marketplace that connects these brands to really hard to find customers. You know, sophisticated buyers, particularly in the C suite, particular VP level, founder level. These people are very hard to sell to and very hard to find. But podcasters like you, you know, have done a great job of kind of bringing those together in one place to help them find solutions.
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B
Great, great. So, yeah, let's, let's dive in here then and definitely going to touch on some of the things that you kind of intrude there. So, you know, with a lot of potential topics and strategy strategies, sometimes part of the challenge with B2B content creation is just prioritizing the right ideas. So how do you look at this, you know, with, with so many potential ideas, you know, depending on the business, of course, but you know, with so many potential ideas, how do you look at, you know, what, what do we choose? What's, what's going to make the biggest impact? You know, where do you start with.
- [04:29]
C
That as far as, like business ideas.
- [04:31]
B
Within the business, as far as approaching B2B content around it?
- [04:37]
C
Yeah, B2B content is challenging in a couple of ways. One, there's fairly a high barrier of entry, which is to say that like, the deeper you get into B2B, the more technical the aspects of any particular subject matter is. So the thing I'm wrestling with on a frequent basis is really how can I be as open and welcome to the layman, for lack of a better word, and also provide depth in content for people that are highly technical looking for answers. So it's kind of a strategy and oftentimes it means just kind of speaking as clearly and precisely as possible and maybe even kind of taking a stand. Yeah, this can be challenging also B2B because in podcasting, you know, you have people that kind of represent, like larger organizations. So there could be compliance issues, there could be, there could be, you know, people listening in, listening over your shoulder, making sure you don't blow it. So oftentimes that can result in Unclear speak, or at least people not giving, like an honest take. So, you know, oftentimes what I'm trying to do with B2B content is be as clear as I can and take as far of an extreme take as possible simply to get people's attention.
- [05:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I haven't been doing this quite as long as you, but, you know, I've had my share of experiences there. I. One time, I won't name name names or anything, but I had a CEO, great interview, like, super engaging and great stories, and then come to find out as soon as we hit stop record that CEO was not given permission to mention the client that they mentioned this amazing story around and so had to edit it out. It was still a good, good show, but, you know, probably would have been great with that, that extra story intact. But, you know, to your point, there, yeah, there's people listening in. There's kind of the, you know, I mean, I go through a process with my own show of, you know, getting questions approved and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, definitely, you know, it can kind of water down what can otherwise be a. An engaging message. Right.
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C
I think, I think it's changing too, I think. And maybe I'm just like calling on brands to kind of embolden their team to take a position, share stories. Obviously there's going to be a line, but really you don't know where the line is until you walk over the line a couple of times. And I think giving, especially the C suite, the agency to do that is going to only benefit them. I mean, one thing I believe firmly is that attention is actually upstream from value, which is to say you might have the most wonderful tool the world's ever seen, but if nobody knows about it, that's a problem. You know, and in this day and age, we're all kind of like bored to death from brand marketing. You know, we want to know the person. I think that especially as we're kind of becoming inundated with generative AI, like real people stumbling, making mistakes, is going to have a little bit more charm to it and actually a little bit more attraction.
- [07:41]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, we both certainly have an affinity for podcasts, you know, again, doing it quite a bit. But, you know, how do you look at where content is shared, how it's delivered? You know, certainly, you know, there's. There's a lot of benefit to podcasts, but sometimes that may not even be the right channel or way of delivering the message or, you know, sometimes it needs to Be accompanied by something else. You know, how do you look at content delivery? And to make that biggest impact?
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C
You bet. I think what we're seeing trending right now is like combination of short form content dominating and long form content dominating. And so by long form I mean probably anything digitally derived that's not television, that's 20 minutes or longer. You know, LinkedIn is going to go to like short form content any day now. Basically getting on board with what TikTok, Instagram and YouTube have been doing forever. And for B2B, this is going to be gigantic. You know, it'll be great for LinkedIn because it'll give you something to do on LinkedIn, I suppose, which is kind of like doom scroll LinkedIn.
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B
Right?
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C
So, so you're seeing this kind of marriage of, of long form where people are willing to like commit like you know, 20, 30, you know, if you, if you are talking about longer podcast, three hours at a clip to podcasting because it kind of weaves into their day and it's more task derived whether they're working or they're driving, they're at the gym, whatever they're doing, doing the dishes. Whereas you have the short form content which is essentially like, you know, the last 60 minutes of the day where you're just quick fix, you know, just this to this, to this to this to this. And I think both have their place particularly right now, you know, so from a content standpoint, particularly B2B, you know, you're not seeing this mid range thing, you know, where whether it's, you could just think of it as like the, the sitcoms of, of content are kind of fallen out of favor in opposition to short form, long form. And where I think podcasting is, is, you know, uniquely positioned, is it, it drives both, you know, like you have, obviously most podcasts are better than 15, 20 minutes, but also all of the little nuggets that you can pull out of podcasting, it lend itself really well to short form content. There was actually a TikTok I saw the other day is kind of like a kind of a younger guy, kind of an advanced TikTok advertiser. And you know, they advertise products and where what you, what he was saying is that like if they get on there and they're doing like a product demo or they're trying to sell a widget or something like that, the efficacy of delivering that product endorsement, making it look like a podcast was like 10x. So to make their ads they do like a fake podcast where they're just Talking about the ad and somehow I think that the. There's credibility behind podcasting as a medium that's helping driving sales even for like, you know, B2C type customers.
- [10:45]
B
Yeah, I mean, that kind of answers the next question I was going to ask because I wonder, as someone who's been doing podcasting for a while, certainly I think a lot of brands got on the bandwagon a few years ago and certainly there was a huge spike in the number of shows and I think, as well as the number of listeners. So in a sense, podcasting was influenced by the marketing that preceded it. And now what you just touched on is, you know, is podcasting being such a popular thing now influencing other types of market? You know, almost kind of the inverse of, of being influenced by. Now it's actually influencing how marketing is being done, I think.
- [11:29]
C
So at least for this guy who is finding success, you know, which is amazing, you know, because I think that's also there's. There's a company called Sounds Profitable that's kind of like the, the industry research component for podcasting. And you know, part of their research is, is like, how do they determine credibility or measure credibility in podcasting versus, like nightly news or cable television or the radio, and particularly in that vector like podcasting scores really, really high that people actually trust podcasting more than they trust the news. So, you know, hopefully they're listening to the right podcast.
- [12:12]
B
Right, right. Yeah. Be careful what you listen to, I guess.
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C
But yeah, yeah.
- [12:19]
A
Breaking news. T Mobile network outperforms expectations in all sectors because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to 800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch. Up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days. Qualified unlock device credit service port in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access and expires in six months.
- [12:51]
B
You know, there's certainly I've always, you know, told and, and been told that, you know, you want to maximize the, the content for the channel that you're using. And so, you know, whether it's podcasting or, you know, social or, or whatever the case may be, but how do you recommend that brands balance that with, you know, just staying consistent across their channels? Because, you know, these B2B brands, they're obviously they're marketing on a number of different channels, if not all of the available ones to them for, for a larger company. You know, how do you, how do you look at consistency and you know, how should a brand look at consistency when they're, you know, maybe a podcast is a big part of their mix, but not the only part, you bet.
- [13:33]
C
And this was kind of an eye opening thing about getting started with, with wildcast. I kind of figured that wildcast advertising in particular was ubiquitous enough brands understood its value. But largely, I think even sophisticated and savvy marketing brands kind of entered podcasting to like, how can we contribute with a podcast with creative content? Which I think is amazing. But also again, you're, you're going to have to kind of like be able to take a stand and, and stand on this content you're providing, which is going to create QCs. So there can be kind of a large barrier of entry to create podcasts. Secondarily you have, you see a lot of success with, with very large B2C brands in podcast advertising as well. Whereas B2B, you know, SaaS companies, tech companies, the kind of brands that we work with, they haven't really considered podcasting largely because the biggest podcasts in the world that drive, that kind of consume the most advertising spend are entertainment type shows, whether that's comedy or true crime. So where we saw this opportunity is kind of just from our day to day experience of working with hundreds if not thousands of very niche B2B tech SaaS, E COM kind of podcasts that will never have millions of monthly listeners just based on the content that they're providing. These have very engaged listening bases, possibly the most, the most valuable listening bases they could find. But every single podcast has their own particular terms for advertising. They have their particular add ons. And so there really was kind of a barrier of entry just of like, boy, how do I manage a dozen different podcasts? So that's kind of where wildcast comes in, is that we're able to aggregate all of these extremely valuable audiences from these niche podcasts, which is just another way to say like highly technical, but also very much smaller audiences. You know, a thousand to a hundred thousand monthly listens, we can aggregate all of those to get those million impressions, those 10 million impressions for a brand that's looking to kind of find their audience at scale. So you know, when I came into it with the misconception of like, oh, you know, B2B brands already know all about this actually there's a little bit of education component I think only because if they tried in the past, it might have been a little discouraging of how much effort it is. And I particularly am like, very sensitive to the efforts of marketing directors at SaaS companies because they're often tasked with knowing everything about every marketing platform and have the passwords for everything. So that's kind of what we wanted to do, is like, be able to, like, connect in an earnest and genuine way. The audiences that are looking for solutions, the podcast hosts that are kind of this bridge, they're, they're almost like, like steering the ship and then the brands who want to speak to them, you know, and again, this is, you know, for, for companies that are actually providing you, not necessarily some of the maybe novelty items that have been popular on podcast advertising in the past.
- [16:46]
B
Yeah. And so then from that B2B marketer's perspective, because, I mean, even, you know, B2B SaaS, even alone, not to mention B2B broadly, but like B2B SaaS even, there's a lot of different variations in there. You know, there's different target audiences, all those kinds of things. So, you know, how do you help those marketers, you know, as, as you described, you know, find, find their niche? So, you know, let's say I'm, I'm a B2B SaaS company and my target audience is marketers. You know, that's probably the most of the audience for this show. You know, how do you help them, them find their audience?
- [17:24]
C
Basically what we do is we give them blue ocean. Niche podcasts is still wide open for the taking, essentially. I mean, if you're a B2B SaaS company, that, and you're looking for a marketing audience, good luck.
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B
Right? Right.
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C
Only because if you're going to Google Ads, you know, your, your cost per click is going to be $25 a pop, you know, and, and I know that firsthand, largely because at first glance, wildcast is, is a podcast advertising marketplace, which means we're competing with Spotify, right?
- [18:01]
B
Yeah.
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C
So Spotify is going to dump a billion dollars into, you know, Google Ads Ad network, and is there going to be any room for us? There really isn't. You know, and I think there's a lot of people bumping up against that, you know, whether it's venture backed or you're, you're competing against publicly traded companies where it's like, oh my gosh, we have something that's so unique and so cool, and I know it solves our problems and it solves everybody else's problems, but boy, we just can't get the word out. But this is where niche podcasts, I mean, the, The. The territory and the terrain is also available, you know, for large enterprise companies as well. But for, like, right now, you know, in 2024, there's this amazing opportunity to reach people that are really hard to reach with new. New information, new products, new success stories, new solutions. So, you know, that. That I think is like, kind of the benefit right now that. That we've seen for years now with. With niche podcast is that you actually have an opportunity to kind of. To kind of break through.
- [18:59]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so along those lines, then, you know, even within podcasting, there's certainly a lot of changes happening. And, you know, whether it's, you know, Apple makes an update here or, you know, whatever. Whatever the case may be, how do you stay on top of this so that, you know, you can guide advertisers in the. In the right direction then, you know, with. With everything going on, you know, to your point, marketers are supposed to know everything about everything, but, you know, how do you kind of help them, help steer them in the area of podcasting?
- [19:29]
C
Yeah, we're getting a lot of new tools. You know, to your point, like, every time Apple recalibrates how they're quantifying a listener, that affects the entire industry because largely, you know, podcast advertising is still based on listeners, you know, so. So it's tough. One thing that we do to kind of overcome that, and largely because we want to come from the podcaster's perspective first, because they. That's really our bread and butter. You know, we're representing these brands and giving them the best possible we can. But we also want to make sure that our podcasters are taken care of. So really using the tools we have available now, which are amazing, you know, we have, you know, large language model tools, AI tools that we can do air checks on everything. So oftentimes, you know, for. For brands, having a host read ad on. On one of their favorite podcasts is amazing. And when you're able to deliver 120 episodes and you can hear it in real time, just with a click of a button, you can hear every single one as they kind of appear is a huge value add for the industry in itself. You know, the other thing that we do that's maybe a little bit unique is we allow people to aggregate all of their. Their listenership. You know, YouTube is great because everybody can just see it.
- [20:44]
B
Right?
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C
But otherwise, you know, podcasting is kind of a black box, you know, and so if your hosting company is going to report a number, and you get YouTube reporting a number. If that ad is being played on your TikTok, that blows up will allow that number. So we really have kind of a, in aggregate, a larger, more comprehensive listenership number for the ads that folks are paying for than almost anybody else. So what. What I'm excited for is all the new products that are coming down the pipe for podcasters. Podcasting in general, you know, for better or for worse, is still kind of the wild west. Being based in RSS and being based in, like, something that was built to be free from the very beginning. Yeah, you kind of have like, a bunch of different tools vying for the same space, and there's no kind of, like, standardized place. So on one side, that's great because it allows for innovation to happen very quickly. On the other side, it's a little bit harder and a little bit more clunky to be able to report on some of these listenership numbers.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And so for those B2B marketers out there, you know, how do you recommend that they. Obviously, if they're listening to the show, they have some kind of a soft spot for podcasts, but, you know, how do you recommend that they, you know, take a. Take a serious look at. At marketing on. On podcasts and, you know, to. Just kind of similar to what. What you were saying as far as how you keep up with things, knowing that B2B marketers have to know a little of everything, you know, where. Where should they turn to for, you know, trends on. On podcasting and if it's a good fit for them.
- [22:23]
C
Yeah, you know, of course, I would love to shill for my own product, of course. Um, you know, but the, the kind of industry resource or research component is called. Sounds profitable. Definitely look at their materials because they make a very strong case for host Red in particular, which is kind of where. Where we land for podcasting to be just like this amazing opportunity for brands, you know, So I, I think people, if they go check out. Sounds profitable. That's great. Of course, I would love to talk to anybody. Oftentimes I like to start, you know, these conversations with, you know, what's your favorite podcast? You want to find out how cost to advertise on that show.
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B
Right, right.
- [23:04]
C
So that's kind of a fun place to begin. And of course, we can. We can help people and walk them through, you know, what their ICP might look like and, and how, you know, niche podcasts in particular might be able to serve them.
- [23:16]
B
Great. Great. Well, last question, for you. You talked a little bit about this already, but, you know, any, any future trends or things that B2B marketers and content creators should be keeping an eye on and you know, over the, over the next couple years.
- [23:31]
C
Yeah, you know, I think we're all holding our breath to see what happens with generative AI. Yeah, I think it's really cool. I can't help myself but like, make weird songs and, you know, share with friends and stuff. I, I think that like, we're probably six months to being able to say, like, hey, I'd like to hear a podcast with Abraham Lincoln and Bob Marley talking about the upcoming Nuggets series. I, I think that's coming. But I, I'm fairly bullish on the future of just art in general because so far I haven't seen anything super compelling out of AI that's not just a toy. I, I hear, I hear how it's going to shape the future of everything or how it's going to destroy everything, but I'm like, yeah, but I, you know, I'm just making these like dumb songs about my friend's kids and sending it to them. I don't. So I'm really excited to see what the tools will bring, but largely based around connection and why I've always. Why I fell in love with podcasting in the beginning is because it has this almost salve for the modern human digital experience, which is if they had their way, they'd wrap our eyeballs in screens and keep us isolated into little consuming buckets. Not to be cynical, but, but I think podcasting brings us together. Even listening to other people's conversation makes me feel a little less alone. And I, I think these tools, you know, the ones that are going to rise to the surface, are going to enhance this kind of connection, particularly in podcasting and in audio in general. Appreciate you, Greg.
- [25:15]
B
Yeah, thanks so much. Well, again, I'd like to thank Ryan Estes, co founder at Wildcast, for joining the show. You can learn more about Ryan and Wildcast by following the links in the show notes. Thanks again for listening to the B2B Agility podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show more easily. You can access more episodes of the show at www.b2bagility.com. That's. That's B2B agility.com while you're there, check out my series of best selling agile brand guides covering a wide variety of marketing technology topics. Or you can search for Greg Kilstrom on Amazon. Until next time, stay focused and stay agile.
- [26:07]
A
Breaking T Mobile Network outperforms expectations in all sectors because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch. Now, keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off at the $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to four lines via virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days. Qualify and unlock device, credit service port in 90 days, device and eligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card is no cash access and expires in six.