#28: Discussing the marketing jobs market with Sue Keith, Landrum Talent Solutions

Summary

Podcast Summary: B2B Agility™ Episode #28 – Discussing the Marketing Jobs Market with Sue Keith

Introduction

In Episode #28 of B2B Agility™, host Greg Kihlström engages in an insightful conversation with Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions. The episode delves into the current state of the marketing jobs market, examining how factors like elections, the economy, and artificial intelligence (AI) are shaping hiring strategies and job seekers' plans for 2025.

---

Overview of Landrum Talent Solutions and Sue Keith’s Role

Sue Keith begins by providing an overview of Landrum Talent Solutions, emphasizing their specialization in marketing and HR recruitment. She explains her role in leading the marketing practice, highlighting the firm's expertise in placing full-time, contract, and fractional positions. Sue emphasizes their deep understanding of marketing language and their effectiveness as "matchmakers" between candidates and employers.

Key Quote:

“Everyone on our team, myself included, spent the majority of our careers in marketing roles. So we like to say we speak the language. I think our clients would agree that we're pretty good matchmakers.” [01:14]

---

Current Job Market Climate

The discussion shifts to the overall economic climate as the year draws to a close, with impending elections adding to market uncertainty. Despite positive indicators such as strong job numbers, decreasing inflation, and record-high corporate profits, many companies behave cautiously, anticipating potential economic downturns.

Sue points out that economists have revised their predictions, with earlier forecasts of a 100% chance of recession now being reconsidered. She cites examples like Goldman Sachs exceeding profit estimates and the stock market reaching new heights, contrasting these with companies pulling back on investments and hiring due to lingering recession fears.

Key Quote:

“The recession is coming, which are now likely wrong. I think most economists agree at this point that we may have accomplished a soft landing that we've been shooting for, maybe hoping for.” [06:05]

---

Impact on Hiring Climate

The uncertainty in the economy has significantly affected hiring practices. After a surge in hiring during the COVID-19 pandemic, companies experienced a sharp pullback in late 2022. Marketing teams, in particular, have faced layoffs and frozen headcounts, leading to leaner operations. However, the demand for interim contractors has risen as companies seek flexible solutions to maintain productivity without committing to full-time hires.

Sue highlights that marketing leaders are increasingly turning to contractors to meet aggressive delivery expectations despite limited headcount. This shift allows companies to continue executing campaigns and projects without the long-term financial commitment of permanent positions.

Key Quote:

“Marketing leaders still need to get the work done and if they can't hire, they bring on interim support.” [05:34]

---

Signs of Optimism in the Job Market

Despite ongoing challenges, there are encouraging signs that the job market may stabilize. Sue mentions that the prediction of an imminent recession has softened, leading organizations to cautiously increase their investments, including in hiring. An uptick in companies building their internal talent acquisition teams serves as a leading indicator of forthcoming hiring activity. Additionally, increased job postings on platforms like LinkedIn suggest that businesses are preparing to expand their teams in anticipation of improved market conditions.

Key Quote:

“We're seeing a lot more marketers post on LinkedIn recently. They've got to do jobs. You know, that badge that LinkedIn puts up there, there's a lot of those going by in my feed right now.” [07:18]

---

Advice for Hiring Managers

Sue offers strategic advice for hiring managers navigating the current market:

1. Utilize Interim Contractors: With marketing teams running lean, hiring interim contractors can help bridge gaps and drive projects forward without the constraints of permanent hiring.

2. Proof of Concept Hiring: Companies are using contractors to demonstrate the value of adding full-time positions. Successful contractor engagements can lead to budget approvals for permanent roles.

   Key Quote:

   “One of the reasons they're bringing on a contractor is they actually have an ulterior motive. They're bringing on the contractor as kind of a proof of concept for the role.” [07:47]

3. Focus on Retention: Retaining existing talent is crucial. Marketing leaders should ensure their teams feel appreciated and connected to the organization to prevent turnover, especially in a competitive job market.

   Key Quote:

   “Be paying attention to your teams right now, get in front of retention. Make sure your people feel appreciated even if you can't do it with phrases or bonuses.” [16:57]

---

The Role of AI in Hiring Decisions

Addressing concerns about AI potentially replacing marketing jobs, Sue clarifies that, as of now, AI tools are enhancing productivity rather than eliminating roles. Marketing teams are leveraging AI to generate content and graphics more efficiently, enabling them to produce more without reducing headcount. However, she cautions that AI may impact hiring decisions in the future, urging marketing leaders to be prepared to defend their team sizes against suggestions that AI can supplant human roles.

Key Quote:

“What we're not seeing yet, and I stress yet, is positions being eliminated due to AI or org charts changing due to AI.” [10:14]

---

Advice for Job Seekers

Sue provides valuable tips for job seekers navigating the tough and competitive market:

1. Honesty in Applications: Candidates should be truthful in their applications and responses to screening questions. Misrepresenting qualifications can lead to disqualification and damage potential future opportunities.

   Key Quote:

   “Be honest when applying for jobs. ... there's always a possibility that person could be a good fit for another role we're working on.” [22:19]

2. Flexibility with Location: With a growing trend towards hybrid work schedules, job seekers should consider being flexible with their location preferences to broaden their employment opportunities.

   Key Quote:

   “If you're locked in only considering remote, you're really going to be taking yourself out of contention for many jobs.” [23:20]

---

Enhancing Candidate Experience

Sue emphasizes the importance of a positive candidate experience, not only for securing talent but also for maintaining the company's brand reputation. Poor treatment of candidates can deter potential customers and damage long-term business relationships.

Key Quote:

“A bad candidate experience with your company could actually hurt your company's brand.” [19:45]

---

Staying Agile in the Role

When asked about maintaining agility in her role, Sue credits her daily interactions with CMOs and marketing professionals. These conversations keep her informed about the latest trends and challenges, enabling her to provide relevant advice and solutions to clients.

Key Quote:

“I get to talk about marketing strategy, org structures, martech platforms, all the good stuff with really smart people. ... that's how I stay really current on things.” [25:49]

---

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Greg expressing appreciation for Sue's insights, highlighting the episode's relevance to professionals navigating the evolving marketing job market. Sue's expertise sheds light on both the challenges and opportunities present, providing actionable advice for hiring managers and job seekers alike.

Closing Remarks:

“Thanks again for listening to the B2B Agility podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show more easily.” [27:56]

---

Final Thoughts

Episode #28 of B2B Agility™ offers a comprehensive analysis of the current marketing jobs market, blending economic indicators with practical recruitment strategies. Sue Keith's expertise provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of hiring trends, the impact of AI, and the critical importance of candidate experience, making it a valuable resource for both employers and job seekers in the B2B marketing landscape.

Transcript

[Sue Keith]

The agile brand.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Welcome to the B2B Agility Podcast where we look at the factors that drive success in B2B marketing with a focus on the people, processes, data and platforms that make B2B brands stand out and thrive in a competitive marketplace. I'm your host, Greg Kilstrom, advising Fortune 1000 brands on martech, marketing operations and CX, best selling author and speaker. Now let's get on to the show.

[Sue Keith]

In this special episode brought to you.

By Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting.

Firm specializing in marketing and HR positions.

We're going to talk about a few things today including the state of the.

Job market and how elections, the economy and AI are affecting the plans that hiring managers and job seekers are making for 2025. Joining me today is Sue Keith, Corporate.

Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions.

Sue, welcome back to the show.

Hi, Greg. It's nice to be back.

Yeah, always, always love talking about this stuff with you.

So for those that didn't catch the.

Last episode where we talked, could you tell us a little bit about your role at Landrum Talent Solutions?

Sure. As you mentioned, Landrum Talent is a national recruiting firm that specializes in two functional areas, marketing and hr. I lead our marketing practice. We help our clients place full time contract and fractional positions on their teams. Everyone on our team, myself included, spent the majority of our careers in marketing roles. So we like to say we speak the language. I think our clients would agree that we're pretty good matchmakers.

Great, Great. So start by talking about just the overall climate right now. I mean, you know, we're approaching the end of the year and lots of stuff in play. You know, elections are in a matter of days, you know, so things are a little inflated flux and you know, in some ways it can be a little incongruous. Right. So there's positive numbers like jobs numbers, inflation, interest rates down. So it's not all bad news. Certainly there's. There's some not so great news as well. Yet it seems like companies are still behaving as if it's all bad news all the time. Is this what you're seeing?

Absolutely. I think I've been saying this for a while, but it feels like it's been opposite day for almost two years now. In fact, I read a stat the other day that in October of 22, so two years ago, economists predicted there was 100% chance of a recession. And I think they're just finally now saying they may have been wrong. So despite all the positive indicators, the last two years have been tough so you've got corporate profits at record highs. Side note, Goldman Sachs just beat estimates by a billion dollars on the top line. They reported earlier this week and reported a $3 billion profit. That was just for Q3 alone. The stock market has been at record levels. Consumers are still spending, seems like mostly on flights to Europe. Inflation, which to your point has come down since and you know, houses are still selling for over list with multiple offers. I mean, and that's despite interest rates being at maybe not record highs, but in recent times, record highs. So despite all this positive news, companies effectively retreated, or you might want to say retracted over the past few years, you know, in response to all these predictions and this constant drumbeat of warning calls about an impending recession. And as you mentioned, of course, the upcoming election has some companies on pause before they commit to investing again. It certainly adds some additional uncertainty into the market.

Yeah, yeah. So what does this do to the hiring climate? I mean, obviously with uncertainty and all this, you know, again, it's not like this is just happening, as you said, and I've been experiencing as well, this has been for a couple years. But what does this do to the hiring climate?

It does a lot and as you mentioned, so it's been about two years since we started. Not to go back too far, but we had Covid in 2020 21, hiring exploded, I've been known to say maybe a little bit recklessly. And then there was just this seismic shift the other direction late 2022. And that's where we still find ourselves, you know, and it was, it really was reaction to the recession fears that I just talked about. Companies pulled back on investments, you know, investments in new technology. So I know a lot of folks who run, you know, startup SaaS, companies who, they just can't, none of their clients are willing to take the risk on investing in something new or haven't been willing to strategic consulting projects. You know, the big, the big consulting firms are really struggling, at least on the commerc commercial side of their businesses. And then, you know, notably in hiring. And you know, and not just hiring, you know, the concern about the economy has meant not just frozen headcounts, but many, many layoffs. And unfortunately, marketing teams have been particularly impacted. You know, we probably talk to a dozen marketers every week at every level who've been laid off. You know, many of them have been looking for several months. So these can be really tough conversations. And on the flip side, this means that marketing teams are running really lean right now. And so what we've Seen from a hiring perspective is a market increase in demand for interim contractors. So someone to come in on an interim basis, either fill a gap on your team, help launch a new campaign or product, help with a big upcoming event, and it makes sense. You know, marketing leaders still need to get the work done and if they can't hire, they bring on interim support.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, again, there's some short term things like again, this episode's airing a few days before elections, so there's a lot of talk about that. We're towards the end of a calendar year. There's lots of other factors at play here. Do you think it's likely to settle down anytime soon? And I mean the job market, not necessarily the political landscape, because we're going to steer a bit clear of that right now.

Yes, we are. So, you know, to answer your question, yes to the settling down, I do think it will, or maybe better said, is we're cautiously optimistic. So there are a few positive signs we're seeing. So first, to the point I made earlier, you know, all those, you know, the recession is coming, the recession is coming, which are now likely wrong. I think most economists agree at this point that we may have accomplished a soft landing that we've been shooting for, maybe hoping for. So this should make organizations more comfortable with stepping up their investments. Hopefully that means in hiring as well. Secondly, our, as I mentioned, we, we specialize in positions in marketing and hr and our HR practice has seen an increase in our clients building their talent acquisitions teams back, meaning companies are hiring internal recruiters again. So that means, you know, it's a great leading indicator that companies are gearing up to hire either later this year or probably more in 2025. And then the third thing we're seeing, well, this is definitely less scientific, but it's just as encouraging. We're seeing a lot more marketers post on LinkedIn recently. They've got to do jobs. You know, that, that, that badge that LinkedIn puts up there, there's a lot of those going by in my feed right now. So that's another good sign.

Yeah, yeah. So given, given all that, you know, we've, we've got the, the context here. So let's talk more specifically about hiring managers and what they should be keeping in mind just given all this. And even if uncertainty may be reduced in the short term, what are you hearing from hiring managers as far as their priorities and how they're approaching hiring?

Right. So as I mentioned, marketing teams are running really lean right now, but the expectation Excuse me. The expectations on what they're supposed to deliver haven't changed and in some cases have gotten even more aggressive, but they don't have headcount. So they're getting creative and they're bringing on, like I mentioned, interim contractors to augment their teams. And so typically the budget for contractors comes out of marketing's program budget, not out of the headcount bucket. So CMOs are, you know, they're working on finding a balance between using that money to invest in programs and then investing in bringing on people to help execute those programs. You know, there's also this interesting thing that's going on too that, you know, we've had several clients tell us one of the reasons they're bringing on a contractor with us is they actually have an ulterior motive. What they're doing is. But they don't have headcount.

Right.

So they're bringing on a contractor to help them make the case to their management team that they really do need to have this position, a full time position on their team for the work the contractor is doing. You know, basically they're bringing on the contractor as kind of a proof of concept for the role.

Yeah, yeah.

One of my favorite stories related to this is we placed one of our best event contractors, I guess it was a couple years ago with one of our clients who had wanted to hire a full time employee but couldn't get the headcount approved. And that client called me a few months later and she said, get this, our contractor was doing such an amazing job and kind of demonstrating the need for that role that her CEO gave her approval to actually hire for the full time position.

Nice. Nice. Yeah, no, I mean that's, I mean I've, I've, I've seen that work as well and I think I've even done that, you know, from a strategic position as well. So it's, there's lots of work to be done. As much as we talk about AI taking jobs or whatever, there's, there's too much work to be done. As you were saying, you know, teams running, running lean and stuff like this. So, you know, speaking of AI, how are hiring managers thinking about this? And you know, what, what effect is this? You know, all this talk and, and potentially planning around AI and you know, affecting hiring plans and decisions.

And that's a really interesting question and really a timely one because for most companies we're about to head into budget season.

Yeah.

You know, there's so much buzz right now about AI and how it's going to potentially replace humans. You know, especially marketing humans.

Right?

What I'd say is as of now what we're seeing is marketing teams are using AI tools to be more productive. So typical use case is using ChatGPT, Claude Gemini insert AI tool to generate content and or graphics faster so they're producing more content, more stuff. What we're not seeing yet, and I stress yet, is positions being eliminated due to AI or org charts changing due to AI. So what we're thinking for next year 2025, we don't see AI or the threat of Lua AI significantly impacting hiring decisions for next year, but I do think there's a good chance it will start to impact hiring in the near future. And there's also, you know, we stress that every marketing leader needs to be prepared now. Especially like I mentioned, if you're heading into budgeting season, just be ready for your CEO or CFO to challenge the size of your current marketing team or your hiring request for next year by suggesting that with AI, maybe the marketing team should be smaller. So even if that's not going to be the case, be prepared to respond and hopefully refute that question.

Marketers, we know you love the tldr, so let's get right to the point. Wix Studio gives you everything you need to cater to any client at any.

Scale, all in one place.

Get ready. Here's how your workflow could look. Scale content with dynamic pages and reusable assets effortlessly and fast track projects with built in marketing integrations like Meta Conversions, API, Zapier, Google Ads and more. You'll always need to a B test landing pages now you can create them in days, not weeks with intuitive design tools. Connect to tracking and analytics tools like GA4 and SEMrush and capture key business events without the hassle of manual setup. Manage all your clients, social media and communications from a unified dashboard. Then create, schedule and post content across all their go to channels. Working on content rich sites. Wix Studio's no code CMS lets you build and manage without touching the design. And when you're ready for more, WIX Studio grows with you. Add your own code, create custom integrations using Wix made APIs or leverage robust native business solutions. Drive real client growth with WIX Studio. Go to wix studio.com as a B2B marketer, you know how noisy the ad space can be. If your message isn't targeted to the right audience, it just disappears into the noise. With LinkedIn ads, you can precisely reach the professionals who are more likely to Find your ad relevant with LinkedIn's targeting capabilities. You can reach them by job title, industry, company and more. Stand out with LinkedIn Ads and start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today. LinkedIn Ads allows you to build the right relationships, drive results and reach your customers in a respectful environment. You'll have direct access to and build relationships with decision makers, a billion members, 130 million decision makers and 10 million C level executives. You'll be able to drive results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B. In technology, LinkedIn generated two to five times higher return on ad spend than other social media platforms. You'll work with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in. 79% of B2B content marketers said LinkedIn produces the best results for paid media. And I know from firsthand experience LinkedIn is where I go to learn about the latest happenings in my industry, network with peers and share my own insights. It's been a critical component of how I stay informed to make better decisions. Start converting your B2B audience into high quality leads today will even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Go to LinkedIn.comagile to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.comagile terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to be.

So I mean given and you've certainly given some some advice along the way here. But you know, what would you your advice be to hiring managers right now? And you know, also keeping in mind are there any missed opportunities right now that hiring managers should keep in mind?

Sure. So you know I've mentioned that marketing leaders are turning to contractors since they can't bring on full time employees. But we've been seeing a lot lately is what I call a disconnect between the job description and the required years of experience of the person they want to bring on. And what I mean by this is often the job responsibilities say they more likely align with someone with say 10 or 15 years of experience. But then the job description says two to three. Yeah, and the reason for this is budget. So the hiring manager really does need a more experienced marketer, but their budget can only support a more junior person at a lower hourly rate. So in these cases we can certainly find more junior level candidates. That's not always the case but in this environment there are earlier career folks who are not employed and are willing to take on an, you know, contract role and hopefully maybe even, you know, a contract to perm. But we also consider encourage our clients to consider more seasoned people. So in that case it's a win win. There are, as I mentioned, there are a lot of experienced marketers who are in between jobs right now and for some of them they've been in between jobs for quite a while. So they are more than happy to do tactical work on a contract basis. Maybe not a job they would be want it for a full time role. It may be too junior for them, but to just get in there, you know, they, they're willing, they're looking to get back to doing some work, keeping their brains active, you know, close, keep the gap on their resume, make new connections and you know, they're often willing to take a lower hourly rate than what they normally would have because of the environment. And you know, and for some of them they just simply want a break from job searching. I mean I've been doing this for 12 years and I've yet to find somebody who says this is fun, you know.

Right, right.

And in fact when our, one of our recruiters likes to tell like especially this time of year because we have a lot of these going on right now, she likes to tell her more senior candidates that look at contracting as like a holiday gift from us. So and then on the hiring manager side, so you get, you get someone who needs to work or wants to work and is willing to do a more tactical role at a lower rate than they would be able to normally command in a, in a stronger market. But for the hiring manager, you get the level experience you actually really need to do effective job in the role and someone who has the experience to jump right in and make a difference and doesn't need to be coached, mentored like a more junior level person. And, but you're getting that person at a rate that aligns with your budget. So it's, it's a pretty good deal right now.

Yeah.

The second thing I'd like to mention that I think is really important for hiring managers to consider is actually the opposite of hiring. It's retention. So as I mentioned, the teams, marketing teams are running really tight right now and people we talk to a lot of people who are employed in a really burned out. So what we're telling marketing leaders is be paying attention to your teams right now, get in front of retention. You know, make sure your people feel appreciated even if you can't do it with phrases or bonuses. But make sure the work they're doing is, they feel like it's being noticed and appreciated and maybe think about career pathing plans for your people. So Even though I'm working really hard right now and I haven't had a raise for a year. May, you know, maybe my manager has told me, well there's, you know, let's just the career path I'm heading towards. So there's a reason to stay and stick it out because the job market is going to turn. I mean it has to turn at some point and as soon as it does, your people are going to be tempted to see what's out there. So making sure they feel valued and really importantly connected to the organization. You know, with everyone still mostly working remotely, it's hard to. We've lost that, what I call that connective tissue with, amongst the people who work for a company, not just in marketing, but across the organization. So do what you can now to make sure people feel really connected to the company and to the team before the job market does turn and companies like mine start reaching out to them.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and to, to look then a little bit from the job seeker perspective. I mean you mentioned a few things already that relate. But you know, I just want to highlight the, you know, that from a strategic standpoint as a jobseeker, much like the strategic aspect of a, of a hiring manager, you know, get a contract, kind of get the, get the foot in the door, so to speak. Certainly, you know, I think that that really resonates and it is a way to, for job seekers to think, you know, what are you seeing from the candidates that you're talking with? Are there, are there any themes that you're seeing from those job seekers?

Unfortunately, not much has changed from our last conversation and probably last couple of conversations. It's still really tough for job seekers at all levels of experience. You know, the market is super competitive. There are hundreds of applications for every job and unfortunately oftentimes the candidate experience is pretty awful. And you know, I've talked about this before. Maybe I should say I've preached about this before. But I really encourage companies to review their candidate experience from application to offer, you know, and especially how they handle candidate rejections. You know, not only treating people kindly is the right thing to do, but you really should keep in mind that a candidate is a potential future consumer of your product or buyer of your product. So bad candidate experience with your company could actually hurt your. Your company's brand.

Yeah, yeah. And this is. I know I've shared this anecdote on the show before, but I had somebody from Kimberly Clark on a few. This is years ago at this point, but they literally calculated the basically the, the potential loss of revenue from a customer of their, you know, they do all kinds of like paper products and all that kind of consumer products. They actually calculated the potential loss if they gave their, you know, candidates a bad experience and they just chose to choose their competitor on the, you know, on the shelf next door next to it. So it's like this is, you know, this is not just a theoretical thing, right? This is a, this is a real, you know, it's a real thing. And you know, maybe not every, every organization can calculate it in that, but that just highlighted to me, you know, exactly what you're saying, which is there, there is a cost and you know, there's a long term effect of, of all of these things.

That's amazing. I think it's brilliant that she did that. They did that because I find that especially on the consumer product side, right, that's, this is, or any consumer business or product that's really important. But it's just, you know, that same even if you're talking about B2B like let's say it's a SaaS company that that candidate just had a really bad experience, could eventually be a future buyer, potential buyer of your software at wherever they land. And I think there's, you know, we put we as mark and this is where maybe marketing needs to get more involved. We as marketers. Oh think very every day about the customer experience, you know, from, from starting on the, when they land on your website to conversion and beyond. But, but I don't think a lot of companies that we haven't been seeing, a lot of companies are really thinking about the candidate experience. And like I said, maybe this is where marketing needs to also maybe partner with HR and bring those experience skills that we're used to deploying to the candidate side.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's, you know, and if, if nothing else drives this point home of, you know, how important the candidate experience is, you know, let's, let's put some dollars to it and you know, and illustrate that and you know, hopefully that that moves the needle and you know, kind of nudges, nudges people in one direction over the other.

I would love to see that or more of that.

I'll say absolutely. What, what other advice would you give to job seekers in the, in the months ahead?

So, two thoughts. The first one is going to sound really weird and honest or obvious I should say. But be honest when applying for jobs. Like I said, it sounds really obvious, but we're seeing some bad behavior. And what I mean by this is so where we see it most often is, you know, a lot of times when you apply for a job, not only do you submit your resume, but the company or we have put in some screening questions to really like just make sure we're getting some of the must haves. You know, in our case questions may be something like do you have at least five years of product marketing experience or do you have people management experience or are you able to commute to the company's Washington D.C. office two days a week? And we find fairly often that people aren't truthful when answering these questions because they want their resume to get through. But what happens is that's really short sighted because we're going to take look at their resume and very quickly determine that they don't have five years of product marketing experience or they live in Chicago and that you have jobs in Washington.

It's not that hard to find that out, right?

No, it's pretty quick. And what that does is, is not only does that mean we're not going to talk to you for the position you applied for, but it also means, you know, there's always a possibility that person could be a good fit for another role we're working on. So for example, just this morning someone referred somebody to me for one of the positions we had and I was like, you know what, she's not qualified for that, but she actually is qualified for this other one. And we're, I think one of our teammates is talking to her today. That won't happen if we see someone who could looks like a good fit for a different role we have, but is just, let's just say not been truthful in those questions. They've given us a reason to question their integrity and we're probably not going to talk to them. So that's a big one. Even though, and I will not disclose where. But you'd be interesting to know that we see this a regional thing where different regions of the country people tend to answer those questions more honestly than others. Interesting fun fact. The second thing I'd like to suggest to job seekers is recognize that you may need to be more flexible with your location requirements. So even though most people are still, well, I don't even know if you can say most people, but a good number of people are still working remotely. More and more companies are requiring hybrid work schedules. You see this everywhere. Dell just got a lot of press because they're requiring their salespeople to be back in the office with two seconds notice. But more and more companies Leaders are really thinking that some product, productivity, innovation, a lot of things are lost if everyone's 100% remote. So if you're locked in as a candidate, if you're locked in only considering remote, only roles, you're really going to be taking yourself out of contention for many jobs. And it may be time to start figuring out, okay, if you haven't, you've been working remotely and haven't been paying for child care or worrying about childcare, these are some of the things you have to start thinking about.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, sue, thanks again for all your insights and ideas and definitely love to check in with you on this stuff. I mean, I know there's a lot of people out there. You know, this affects people's jobs, this affects people's hiring, and just the way companies are able to get work done. So always appreciate checking in with you on these things. One last question before we wrap up. I like to ask everybody, what do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do that consistently?

I love this question. I think my best answer is, so I talk to CMOs and marketing candidates every day, and that's really the best part of my job. I may not be doing marketing anymore, but I get to talk about marketing strategy, org structures, martech platforms, all the good stuff with really smart people. And not only do I enjoy this, but it also has a benefit. I'm able to bring these insights to bear when I'm talking to our clients and advising them on, you know, maybe how to shape their teams or really digging into a gap on their team they're trying to fill. And, you know, because we find that oftentimes the initial job description is really not an accurate depiction of what the hiring manager is really looking for. So by having these informed conversations where, you know, I bring all the, the intel I've gotten from all the other marketers I've been talking to, you know, we can, when we're talking to the hiring managers about what they really need, we're able to identify what that true skill set looks like, you know, both quantitative and qualitative that will be best able to meet the needs of their team. So I think just my job requires me to talk to people day in, day out, and that's how I, I just stay really current on things.

Yeah, yeah, I, I love that. I feel the same way about having, you know, the, the opportunity to have a podcast like this because I get to talk to people like you and, you know, like three times a week it's I think it's just, you know, it's amazing what you learn by having conversations and talking through and, you know, even, you know, listen, listening to conversations. It's amazing what you hear kind of even in between the details. Right, right.

You know, it's I sometimes think, you know, after I've had a really good conversation with somebody and I've learned something that, you know, is really important in some way, whether it be personal or professional. And I think, what conversations have I missed? Right, right. What don't I know because I didn't talk to someone? Yeah, totally existential question. But I sometimes wonder.

Well, I love that. And yeah, we'll leave everyone with that then. So again, I'd like to thank Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions, for joining the show. You can learn more about sue and Landrum Talent Solutions by following the links in the show notes.

[Greg Kilstrom]

Thanks again for listening to the B2B Agility podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to subscribe and leave us a rating so that others can find the show more easily. You can access more episodes of the show at www.b2b agility.com. that's b2b agility.com. while you're there, check out my series of best selling agile brand guides covering a wide variety of marketing technology topics. Or you can search for Greg Kilstrom on Amazon. Until next time, stay focused and stay agile.

[Sue Keith]

The agile brand.