Podcast Summary: B2B Agility with Greg Kihlström™ – Episode #63

Title: Marketing in a World of Agent-to-Agent Transactions
Guest: Matthieu Dhondt, Associate Director of Experience Consulting, EPAM
Host: Greg Kihlström
Release Date: September 30, 2025
Episode Length: ~23 minutes

Overview

This episode dives into the evolving landscape of B2B marketing as generative AI and autonomous agents increasingly automate interactions. With humans stepping back and agents taking on both sides of many transactions, host Greg Kihlström and guest Matthieu Dhondt explore how marketers must rethink the customer experience, the nature of automation, the future of personalization, and critical skills for marketers to remain indispensable.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. AI Redefining Customer Interfaces

[02:10 – 04:22]

• Trend Toward Natural Interfaces:

  • The interface between humans and technology is becoming “smaller and more immediate.” Technology is adapting to people, not the other way around.
  • Dhondt references Bruce Sterling’s analogy on music technology becoming more personal and embedded—similarly, interfaces are moving toward “invisibility,” delivering outcomes with minimal friction.

• Notable Quote:

  "We're really moving towards a place where the interface even becomes quasi invisible, where there's a lot of the things happening that we don't see...It’s very natural, very fluent, very contextual."
  — Matthieu Dhondt, 03:41

2. Designing for People vs. Designing for Agents

[04:22 – 07:40]

• Marketers must now consider that experiences are sometimes “agent-to-agent,” with AI intermediaries interpreting human data and intent.

• Despite automation, Dhondt argues this evolution allows marketers to serve human intent more precisely, making experiences less about clunky interfaces (e.g., search input, endless options) and more focused on what people truly want.

• Notable Quote:

  "We are designing [experiences] even more for people than we did before...it means that as marketeers, we're talking more to the people who will be directing these agents than...to these agents."
  — Matthieu Dhondt, 05:25

3. Automation: Productivity Gains vs. Meaningful Friction

[07:40 – 13:51]

• Reducing the Right Friction:

  • Automation should target unproductive friction, but some friction (“productive friction”) is desirable and valuable.
  • Examples include decision-making, quality control, and compliance—steps that require human input and judgment.

• “Magic Box” Trap:

  • Over-automation (trusting the “black box” fully) can erode customer agency and trust. The challenge is knowing where to retain human oversight.
  • The right level of friction allows for better decisions and safeguards against potential automation pitfalls.

• Practical Approach:

  • Start with end goals, work backward to identify what can be automated, and preserve human agency where it matters.
  • Accountants shifted from data entry to analysis and strategic tasks—marketers may see a similar evolution.

• Notable Quote:

  "Automation as reducing friction—unproductive friction…But there's also productive friction. Productive friction: Is this on brand? Is this, does this fit our strategy? Give me X, Y and Z and I'll decide."
  — Matthieu Dhondt, 08:46

4. Personalization—Is “Segment of One” the Ultimate Goal?

[13:51 – 16:58]

• Hyper-personalization:

  • True one-to-one personalization is technically possible, but the real question is whether customers always want it.
  • There's a “creepiness” threshold (e.g., feeling watched or manipulated) and, ultimately, personalization should be about exchanging value, not just data.

• The exchange must feel balanced; customers only welcome hyper-personalization if it delivers perceptible value in return.

• Notable Quote:

  "...Making [personalization] the goal, it could be a happy accident that we arrive at the personalization of one."
  — Matthieu Dhondt, 16:45

5. The Evolving Marketer: From Execution to Orchestration

[16:58 – 22:07]

• Changing Skillset:

  • Marketers won’t go away but must shift from task-driven work (lead gen, campaign setup) to strategy, orchestration, and holistic experience management.
  • Dhondt sees a return to “serving the customer”—focusing on value, positioning, and owning the full customer journey.
  • Skills like curiosity, strategic thinking, and cross-functional orchestration will be key. Repetitive tasks will likely be automated away.

• Lessons from Other Domains:

  • Just as accountants now do more analysis and less data entry, marketers can elevate their impact as execution becomes automated.

• Notable Quote:

  "With Gen AI and agents, a lot of the work of the marketing will shift back to the strategic level...The job of the marketer will be much more about orchestration and having a lot more say about every touch point."
  — Matthieu Dhondt, 18:35

• Memorable Moment:

  • Webmaster analogy: Both host and guest recall how their first jobs (e.g., webmaster) have disappeared, but new, more valuable roles always emerge.
    — [20:39]

6. Staying Agile: Curiosity as a Superpower

[22:21 – 22:49]

• Dhondt attributes agility to actively training curiosity and asking “stupid questions.”

• Staying curious and open to new patterns is essential for adapting as marketing continues to transform.

• Notable Quote:

  "It's training the curiosity muscles…It's really curiosity. Why is this happening? What is this? How does this work? I think that summarizes it best, in fact."
  — Matthieu Dhondt, 22:21

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:34: Setting the theme—AI agents replacing humans in customer experience
• 02:10: AI redefines interfaces; natural, invisible interactions
• 04:22: Are we designing for humans, agents, or both?
• 07:40: Automation’s real promise—eliminating unproductive friction
• 08:46: Productive vs. unproductive friction in B2B experiences
• 12:16: Drawing the line between automation and human oversight
• 13:51: Is “segment of one” personalization what customers want?
• 16:58: Evolving marketer roles in an agent-to-agent future
• 18:35: The marketer’s new domain: orchestration and value delivery
• 22:21: How Matthieu stays agile—cultivating curiosity

Notable Quotes

• "We're really moving towards a place where the interface even becomes quasi invisible, where there's a lot of the things happening that we don't see...It’s very natural, very fluent, very contextual."
  — Matthieu Dhondt (03:41)

• "We are designing [experiences] even more for people than we did before...it means that as marketeers, we're talking more to the people who will be directing these agents than...to these agents."
  — Matthieu Dhondt (05:25)

• "Automation as reducing friction—unproductive friction…But there's also productive friction. Productive friction: Is this on brand? ...Give me X, Y and Z and I'll decide."
  — Matthieu Dhondt (08:46)

• "...Making [personalization] the goal, it could be a happy accident that we arrive at the personalization of one."
  — Matthieu Dhondt (16:45)

• "With Gen AI and agents, a lot of the work of the marketing will shift back to the strategic level...The job of the marketer will be much more about orchestration and having a lot more say about every touch point."
  — Matthieu Dhondt (18:35)

• "It's really curiosity. Why is this happening? What is this? How does this work?"
  — Matthieu Dhondt (22:21)

Summary Takeaways

• AI and automation are transforming B2B marketing, reducing low-value tasks and enabling deeper human focus on strategy and orchestration.
• Customer experience is moving toward invisible, highly personalized interfaces—but the human role remains crucial, especially at key decision and “friction” points.
• Personalization is only as valuable as the perceived value exchange, not just the illusion of individualized attention.
• The marketer of the future is a strategic orchestrator—not just an executor—requiring curiosity, adaptability, and holistic thinking.

For listeners:
If you’re a B2B marketer facing uncertainty about your changing role, this episode will challenge your assumptions, providing a balanced look at how automation both empowers and elevates the human side of marketing.