Black Motherhood: The Power, Pressure & Truth Behind Netflix’s “Forever” with Karen Pittman

Summary

Baby, This is Keke Palmer: Episode Summary

Episode: Black Motherhood: The Power, Pressure & Truth Behind Netflix’s “Forever” with Karen Pittman
Host: Wondery / Keke Palmer
Guest: Karen Pittman
Release Date: June 17, 2025

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Introduction to "Forever" and Karen Pittman's Role

Keke Palmer opens the episode by introducing Netflix's "Forever," highlighting its depth beyond a mere love story. The show intricately weaves themes of first love, identity, family, and the nuances of growing up Black in a society that often overlooks these experiences. Central to the narrative is the portrayal of Black motherhood through the character Dawn Edwards, portrayed by Karen Pittman.

[00:00] Keke Palmer: "On Netflix, 'Forever' is not just a love story... it's about first love, identity, family, and what it means to grow up Black in a world that doesn't always see you clearly."

Karen Pittman’s character, Dawn Edwards, is depicted as a high-powered finance executive who fiercely protects her son. Her portrayal is multifaceted—overprotective yet vulnerable, tough yet loving.

[00:00] Keke Palmer: "Karen brings so much soul and truth to this role and I promise, by the end, you might just be texting your mama."

---

Personal Connections and Inspirations

Keke shares her admiration for Karen, both as an actress and a person, revealing a personal connection sparked at an Essence Black Women in Hollywood event.

[02:15] Karen Pittman: "You were so personable and heartfelt and thoughtful in lifting up Cynthia."

Karen discusses her diverse career path, from opera to finance to acting, emphasizing the leaps of faith motivated by her sense of purpose and motherhood.

[03:07] Karen Pittman: "I just saw all of the signs in my life pointing me in the direction of purpose... there's nothing I've done more important than become a mother."

---

Navigating Education and Career Transitions

Karen delves into her educational journey, highlighting the challenges of fitting into different academic environments and the transformative experience at NYU's graduate acting program.

[06:57] Karen Pittman: "And the teachers there were really about creating a program around your particular artistic perspective."

She credits her supportive husband and the stability of her family life for enabling her to pursue acting while raising her son.

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Transition to California and "Forever"

Karen explains her move to California, which led to her role in "Yellowstone" and subsequently "Forever." She emphasizes the serendipitous nature of her career progression and the profound impact of working with Taylor Sheridan.

[08:16] Karen Pittman: "I came out to the western part of the United States... and I thought, there's something about this area of the world I need to be in."

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In-Depth on "Forever" and Black Motherhood

The conversation shifts to the heart of the episode—Karen’s portrayal of Dawn in "Forever." She underscores the significance of presenting a multifaceted Black mother on screen, moving beyond one-dimensional portrayals.

[14:17] Karen Pittman: "Because I don't think we've seen this Black mother... we've only seen her through the gaze of a man."

Karen highlights Mara Brock Akil's commitment to authentic storytelling, emphasizing the importance of diverse perspectives in depicting Black families.

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Balancing Parenthood and Professionalism

Keke and Karen explore the delicate balance of being a parent while maintaining one's identity and professional responsibilities. They discuss scenes that resonate deeply with their personal experiences, such as Dawn's protective nature and the challenges of raising Black children in a prejudiced society.

[17:26] Karen Pittman: "It's a total loss of innocence... we have to empower them and teach them from a place of strength."

Karen shares insights on empowering young Black boys to navigate societal challenges with strength and emotional mastery.

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Representation and Cultural Conversations

The discussion touches on systemic issues like racial discrimination and the recent CROWN Act, which addresses hair discrimination. Keke reflects on her own experiences with code-switching and the pressures Black women face in professional settings.

[49:02] Keke Palmer: "We're trying to protect our hair... it's a systemic issue."

Karen and Keke emphasize the importance of authentic representation and the need for stories that highlight the diverse experiences within Black families.

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Legacy and Personal Growth

Karen reflects on how portraying Dawn has influenced her personal life, particularly her relationship with her daughter. She speaks about the ongoing journey of parenting and self-love, drawing parallels between her character and her real-life experiences.

[36:02] Keke Palmer: "What do you think that the show is trying to say to parents who try to do everything right?"

[37:22] Keke Palmer: "This character was gonna mean as much as as she did."

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Intergenerational Perspectives: Including Keke’s Mother

The episode wraps up with a heartfelt conversation involving Keke’s mother, Sharon, who shares her connection to Dawn’s character. They discuss the dynamics of Black motherhood, generational wisdom, and the challenges of raising children in a complex world.

[44:11] Sharon: "That is a subtle that I have in real life. Everyone loves Larry."

[53:23] Sharon: "Announce that if this person doesn't... let her decide. Because otherwise, you're gonna alienate her."

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Conclusion: The Sacredness of Black Motherhood

Keke and Karen conclude by celebrating the depth and significance of Black motherhood as portrayed in "Forever." They underscore the show's role in honoring and reflecting the real-life experiences of Black mothers.

[55:02] Keke Palmer: "Karen Pittman, thank you so much for reminding us that Black motherhood is sacred. And it's time we keep honoring that on and off screen."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Keke Palmer [00:00]: "On Netflix, 'Forever' is not just a love story... it's about first love, identity, family, and what it means to grow up Black in a world that doesn't always see you clearly."

• Karen Pittman [03:07]: "I just saw all of the signs in my life pointing me in the direction of purpose... there's nothing I've done more important than become a mother."

• Karen Pittman [14:17]: "Because I don't think we've seen this Black mother... we've only seen her through the gaze of a man."

• Karen Pittman [17:26]: "It's a total loss of innocence... we have to empower them and teach them from a place of strength."

• Keke Palmer [49:02]: "We're trying to protect our hair... it's a systemic issue."

• Sharon [53:23]: "If this person doesn't... let her decide. Because otherwise, you're gonna alienate her."

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Key Discussion Points

1. Authentic Representation: Emphasizing the need for nuanced Black motherhood in media, moving beyond stereotypical depictions.
2. Personal Growth Through Art: How playing Dawn has influenced Karen Pittman's personal life and parenting style.
3. Systemic Issues: Addressing racism, classism, and discrimination, particularly in education and professional environments.
4. Cultural Identity: The challenges of maintaining cultural identity in predominantly white institutions and professional settings.
5. Intergenerational Wisdom: The role of mothers in imparting wisdom while balancing protection and empowerment.

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Insights and Conclusions

• Impact of Authentic Storytelling: "Forever" serves as a vital platform for showcasing the complexities of Black motherhood, offering viewers a relatable and empowering narrative.
• Legacy of Black Mothers: The episode underscores the sacred role of Black mothers in shaping their children's identities and navigating societal challenges.
• Empowerment Through Education and Representation: Highlighting how education and authentic representation in media can empower both parents and children to embrace their identities and advocate for themselves.

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This episode of "Baby, This is Keke Palmer" provides a profound exploration of Black motherhood through the lens of "Forever" and Karen Pittman's transformative role. It offers listeners valuable insights into the challenges and triumphs of raising Black children, the importance of authentic representation, and the enduring legacy of maternal love and strength.

Transcript

[Keke Palmer]

This episode is presented in partnership with Airbnb. Y' all ready to celebrate independence in style? Get yourself a guest favorite spot and make your summer memories in one of the most loved homes on Airbnb. Now let's roll. Okay, y' all, today we are talking about a show that's got everybody buzzing forever. On Netflix is not just a love story, it's a real story. It's about first love, identity, family, and what it means to grow up black in a world that doesn't always see you clearly. And at the heart of it is an all powerful class and a portrayal of black motherhood I've never seen in a minute. Dawn Edwards, played by the incredible Karen Pittman, is a high powered finance exec doing everything she can to protect her son. She's not perfect. She's overprotective, fierce, vulnerable, and she loves hard. The kind of love that holds you tight and. And hold you accountable. Karen brings so much soul and truth to this role and I promise, by the end, you might just be texting your mama. Thank you. Baby, this is Keke Palmer. And baby, this is Karen Pittman. No matter what we doin in the car just chillin' Pop on Amazon music, sit back and listen. Life, love, sex, science, hovering it all especially the bad cause money always evolve no matter what it is we gon make it make sense Nothing else to do but kick it with the homies and kings so grab you a drink and a snack you enjoy and get into the vibe that only wants you know it's no. Baby, this is. This is Kiki. Baby, this is Kiki Palma. Yeah, come on out.

[Karen Pittman]

K.

[Keke Palmer]

His hair, this outfit as far as I can.

[Karen Pittman]

I love you. I love you.

[Keke Palmer]

I've fallen so deeply in love. Oh, my God. How are you?

[Karen Pittman]

I'm so good. I'm so, so good. Good to be sitting across from you.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. It's such a treat for me. Seriously. I fell in love with you on the show. Obviously, all my friends love you from the morning show as well. So I was. This was just like a love story with forever, but when I was, you know, looking.

[Karen Pittman]

Can I tell you how I fell in love with you?

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. Please tell me I fell in love.

[Karen Pittman]

With you at the Essence Black Women in Hollywood when you introduced the award for Cynthia.

[Keke Palmer]

Eeva.

[Karen Pittman]

For Cynthia. And you were so personable and heartfelt and thoughtful in lifting up Cynthia and what a crazy time, you know, award campaign. Oh, my God, so much. Yeah. Campaigning, campaigning, campaigning. And you just did a beautiful job of bringing how much we love Cynthia into the room, and we love her and everything she's about. So that's where I fell in love with you.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. You know, and before, they didn't get to see this, but you did the riff, and I realized that you. I mean, you went from being an opera singer to financing to acting and got your MFA from NYU while pregnant.

[Karen Pittman]

Yes, that's true.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, those aren't pivots. Those are leaps. You have to. And what gave you the courage to a. Tackle all the things you were interested in at once and then not be afraid? I mean, as a mom, I know as a mom, it's not. It. It takes your mind places.

[Karen Pittman]

Well, I think the reason why I made all of those leaps in the moment was because I just saw all of the signs in my life pointing me in the direction of purpose.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Karen Pittman]

Intention of leading a meaningful life. And there's nothing I've done more important with my life than become a mother. So when I became. And you know this. When you. When you are a mother for the first time, and then you find out you're having a boy, you're like, I gotta get this again.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Yes.

[Karen Pittman]

I could not fall down on this, because I want him to see the first woman that he cares about in the world. I want him to know that what that is like to be with a strong, stable woman who's happy and full. And so, you know, going from Northwestern to New York, going from opera, because I wanted to be a recording artist, and I wanted to be Whitney Houston.

[Keke Palmer]

Wait, so you went to Northwestern, too? Just like Mara.

[Karen Pittman]

Like Mara did.

[Keke Palmer]

Now, did you guys ever cross paths?

[Karen Pittman]

We did for a little bit there, but. Yeah. Yes, yes. So we did for a little bit there, but I really was at the School of Music, which was kind of its own. It was a conservatory, really experience there, so you didn't see a lot of people. But. But yeah, so I. I went from singing opera, wanting to be Whitney Houston. I wanted to be Celine Dion. Like, I wanted to. I really did. I thought I was going to be a. A diva. And, you know, I was in the music industry right around, you know, all the things that was happening that we talking about right now, that was happening.

[Keke Palmer]

My mom was also a singer as well. She's talked about the same things. You know, just trying to find stability but not wanting to sell yourself. And you know what I mean?

[Karen Pittman]

And there are a lot of. A lot of vampires, vipers. All the things were out there in the industry at the time. And I did not get caught in a bad situation, thank God. And I think about all the women that did get caught up in those bad situations. And I think to myself, I don't know how, but my path pushed me towards marriage and children and acting. And it was out of a real sense of desperation that I actually auditioned for grad school. It wasn't because I thought, oh, this is what I really want to do. It was like, girl, you got to do something. What are you going to do? You know that. That age old mother wisdom that we have as black women which says, you got to make a way out of no way.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Karen Pittman]

So what's that way going to look like? And that's what I went about figuring out when I found out I was pregnant with my firstborn. And that's how I made that leap.

[Keke Palmer]

And where are you from? From?

[Karen Pittman]

I was born in Mississippi.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Okay.

[Karen Pittman]

And I was raised in Nashville, went through Chicago to land in New York, and now here I am in la, now nyu.

[Keke Palmer]

You got to tell me a little bit about that experience because, I mean, I know it's incredible, especially for artists. I didn't go to college myself, but I feel like I could have been, you know, I would have been interested in.

[Karen Pittman]

I feel like you didn't need college. There's some people you meet and you just. They have so much wisdom. They come out with so much wisdom. They take in these lessons. I need it. My father would say, experience is not the best teacher. Get your education in school. Be in school, Karen. That's a loving, warm environment for you to learn all these things in. Because if you have to learn it out in real world, it's gonna be so hard, the consequences are harder. So I went to Northwestern, as I said, and I was really around. I was a square pick trying to fit into a round hole. So that wasn't a good experience for me, that undergrad experience. I didn't enjoy it. But once I got to NYU as a grad actor, I really knew more of myself. As we said, I had an infant son. When I started the graduate acting program.

[Keke Palmer]

Did you have any help? Did your parents come down?

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah. At the time, I was married to an extraordinary man. Oh, my gosh. I was married. He was supporting me. He wasn't supporting me, but he was there.

[Keke Palmer]

He was there.

[Karen Pittman]

But he was there. He was there.

[Keke Palmer]

And you had your infant son, you had your support. It had myself getting better.

[Karen Pittman]

That's right. And I knew myself.

[Keke Palmer]

Your experience with college.

[Karen Pittman]

Yes, I knew Myself, Yeah. And the teachers there were really about creating a program around your particular artistic perspective.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

Not making you. Not feeding you an artistic perspective to develop your own ideas.

[Keke Palmer]

That's wonderful because you don't always hear that about going to theater school or. But sometimes it can force you. So it's amazing to hear that they kind of were really actually helping you develop your artistic voice, your own idea.

[Karen Pittman]

And so that was really helpful.

[Keke Palmer]

And you would say that's when you really fell in love with acting.

[Karen Pittman]

That's when I fell in love with the work.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

Because acting is one thing. Right. But the work of being an actor, it's a science, it's an art. It's observing the world. It's allowing yourself to daydream. It's deciding you're not gonna work and learn lines, but you're just gonna daydream. You're just gonna deliberate, you're gonna relax, you're gonna go places and travel. It helps you see people and see things in a different way. And you need that as an artist, keep it working all the time, you know? So it helped me to develop that.

[Keke Palmer]

So what made you do the jump to California? Cause, I mean, obviously you could stay. You could. Stayed in New York and just kept doing theater or doing, you know, I mean, Law and Order, you know what I mean? California's a different type of vibe and direction for artists.

[Karen Pittman]

You know, God gave me a path.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

I worked on a television show called Yellowstone.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, yeah. Taylor Sheridan.

[Karen Pittman]

Taylor Sheridan, that character was Willa Hayes. And I came out to the western part of the United States. Hadn't been out there for a while.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

And I was breaking up with somebody and love that.

[Keke Palmer]

See Yaelyn.

[Karen Pittman]

I needed. I said, lord, give me something to get out of here. Cause I don't need to be over. And then I came this job and went to work on Willa Hayes, which was this extraordinary experience. And Taylor Sheridan's shows are just so good.

[Keke Palmer]

He looked like he should be in the show, too. He finally got like, you know what I mean? He looks like he wrote that show. I'm like, are you an actor?

[Karen Pittman]

He is.

[Keke Palmer]

He was an actor before he gives that down.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And his characters are so vibrant. They got such great dialogue. I think that is because he's been an actor. And so while I was out in Utah, I spent a lot of time on the western in the western part of the United States. And I thought, there's something about this area of the world I need to be in.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

And I was bouncing at the time from Los Angeles and Utah, and then God just made a path for me to come out here.

[Keke Palmer]

I had been getting roles, I imagine, too.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Now, the morning show. Did you guys film that in the East Coast?

[Karen Pittman]

You filmed in the west, filming in la.

[Keke Palmer]

Wow. So you just started getting more and more work, and then obviously, forever. I know forever was shot here.

[Karen Pittman]

Forever is shot here, which was extraordinary. Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

So let's get into forever, because, honestly, I. I saw you and I saying this tomorrow because we. I had my own. I was talking to Wood, and we even had a little moment where we got to talk to Michael. I fell in love with the show, and I fell in love specifically with you. Um, obviously, you know, Michael and Keisha, that love story is. Is. Is real. And I related to that from having remembered my first love. But now as a mom, I found myself being like, the mama is the one. And, I mean, when you read the script and you saw this dawn, this character, what made you drawn to her?

[Karen Pittman]

Well, I didn't read a ton of scripts before I started this role.

[Keke Palmer]

Were you familiar with the Judy Roman.

[Karen Pittman]

I was familiar with.

[Keke Palmer]

Cause I wasn't.

[Karen Pittman]

I was familiar with Mara.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

I knew that she had centered black women in her shows for her entire career.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Karen Pittman]

And that's decades. And I thought after having been a part of shows where women were centered in it, where women told the story, understood what that world would look like. But I also thought, I need the right collaborators. I need the right stories. I need the right cast of people around us to support a story. I understood how important that was and Mara's commitment to it. I knew that Regina was gonna do it. I didn't know Anthony Hemingway. She said, you know, Karen, this is a. This is a beast of a role. It's so. It requires so many nuances and so many different ways of coming at the way a woman feels when her son is about to go out into the world a black woman feels. And I'm wondering if you have room and you're scared. What are you doing? Are you interested? I was like, girl, yes, I'm interested. What are you doing? I'm doing that, baby.

[Keke Palmer]

This is icy Palma.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

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[Karen Pittman]

Because I don't think we've seen this black mother.

[Keke Palmer]

Right? That's right.

[Karen Pittman]

We've seen this mother through the prism of Bill Cosby and Claire Huxtable and Kenya Barris and Bo. I don't know her last name. And even Norman Lear and Esther Rolle and his Bo Sanford. Come on. We've seen this woman, but we've only seen her through the gaze of a. Of a man.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right. One dimensionally.

[Karen Pittman]

One dimensionally. I mean, there's. There are beautiful actresses who opened up those characters and a lot. I'm a big fan of Tracee Ellis Ross.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Karen Pittman]

But I thought that I want to see a black woman tell the story of the black family. And I thought, who better to tell that story? The matriarch. And who better to tell that than Mara Brock Akil? And I have my chance to throw my hat in the ring of who I think this woman is. I have a strong perspective on what it is to. Because I love being a mother. I've learned so much about myself as a human. Not everybody, not every woman need be a mother, but I did to grow. And I learned so much about my mother, my grandmother, and just about myself. And I thought, I have a take on this human. And as an actor and as an artist, I want to throw my hat in the ring and show people who I think she is.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, there was so much tenderness between the relationship of, you know, your character, Don, and Michael's character, Justin. How did you waver that balance of, you know, what your experience has been, raising your own son and what the script was calling for? Because, I mean, we always put ourselves into our work.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's a lot of me and Dawn. Michael is an extraordinary actor.

[Keke Palmer]

Y' all chemistry was so good.

[Karen Pittman]

He's so sweet. And you just look at him and you want to. Baby, come on over here. Sit next to me. You know what I mean? You want to do that? And Wood was extraordinary in how he balanced out all of the energy. I came to set because when I came to set, I was like, you know, shimmying. I literally was like, let's go, let's go. Let's get this going. And it was so important for me to show the many different colors of what black motherhood looks like, to paint with a lot of bold colors, but also the softer colors that we need to see of who black women are. I mean, we're not a monolith, as we often say to the world, but there are multitudes in us as women. And I don't think we've yet to see all of those on screen.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, I lived for seeing Don smoking that weed in Martha's Vineyard, kicking back, hanging out, getting real with the sun. You know, the moment in the car, I was like, this is me when you guys come from the baseball game, the practice. And Keisha has, you know, totally disrespected him. He's like, son, I want you with a black woman, but I don't want you disrespected.

[Karen Pittman]

Yes.

[Keke Palmer]

And I was like, yes, that's not my son. Like, I found myself. The moments were so real that you guys created. And speaking of real, I mean, you know, dawn has a moment where she's talking about Justin being out at night and the fears of, unfortunately, we have to have raising black sons. Where are they gonna get pulled over? Are they gonna know what to say and do? I'm wondering, you know, how you wanted to approach that scene and how you approached it in real life with your own son. Because it's kind of a loss of their innocence.

[Karen Pittman]

It is. It's a total loss of innocence. I don't think that young boys have to manage their egos as much as young black boys. From the start, you know, when these young boys come out, they're like, ah, I can do I. And then we say to our boys, no, baby, take that. You gotta take that down. Cause you're gonna get hurt if you keep going out to the world like that, you know? So, you know, what was interesting in that scene was that Wood had the real balance of, you know, this is what you need to do when you go out. The practical, pragmatic sense with dawn is just, you know, gripping the, you know, she's freaking out, which is so mom like. So mom like. But it's also great to have that balance there. I think I hear a lot about people loving the balance between Eric and Dawn and what that experience is like for them watching it.

[Keke Palmer]

I love seeing that because so much of dawn and Eric reminded me of my parents. Because my mom was always very much like Don, like, you know, and my dad was always like, trust the kids.

[Karen Pittman]

Right?

[Keke Palmer]

I love that scene where, you know, he's. He's like, you gotta let. You wanna be a man. Let him be a man. Let him be, you know. What do you think of the. I love the display with Keisha's household where she's raised. She's raised in a single parent home, and her views of love, I think, are impacted by that. Or relationships are impacted by that. Not good nor bad, but just impacted. And then you, who has this Total naivety. That is like, why not? Because he's seen Don and Eric. I mean, what did you think about that display in the show? Because I think it's important.

[Karen Pittman]

So meaningful, so important. You know, there's a scene in the very first episode, I think first or second, where you see dawn and Eric and the bleachers at the baseball game, and they're being tender and kind with each other, and dawn gives him a kiss on the lips, and he brings her something to. And those are the little things that. That bridge the distance between what we see of these parents or what we see about love. These are the little nuances that only Mara could write. As an audience, we are so desperate to understand how does it work? How do these people stay together, do you know, Teaching, but also entertaining at the same time. How does a couple say together, they kiss each other in the little bleachers when they're watching the baseball game? They support each other. They say, you know, baby, settle down. Let me do this. My father would often say to my mother, I know you know a lot, Ray, but you don't know everything. And that. That, you know, helped her to sort of. Okay, yeah, all right, go ahead, do your thing. Do you know what I mean? And I think we need to see that a lot more.

[Keke Palmer]

I definitely do. I love seeing that. And again, I love seeing it with the boy character. You know, Mara was telling me how she switched, you know, from the Judy Blooms book forever. That female character was the protagonist, was the one we followed, was the one that was considered the pure, the untouched.

[Karen Pittman]

Right.

[Keke Palmer]

And then to have a black boy in that position in the show, I think it's important because it shifts the concept of dynamics. It opens up the opportunity for us to look at what a sexually awake young woman really is or looks like in society.

[Karen Pittman]

It's far more modern. It's far more modern, and it updates it. It helps you to understand. And it makes sense to me that this young African American girl actually has a little bit more sexual experience. She's explored herself a little bit more.

[Keke Palmer]

In the world, especially because so many young black women are sexualized early on, 100%, and it's almost something they're expected to perform.

[Karen Pittman]

Right.

[Keke Palmer]

You know.

[Karen Pittman]

Right. Very early on.

[Keke Palmer]

So when she has that moment where she actually gets with Justin, we realize that she's actually not that sexually experienced.

[Karen Pittman]

She doesn't have that much knowledge about it. So important.

[Keke Palmer]

I love that story.

[Karen Pittman]

I can't tell you how many times people come up to my daughter, 15 years old, we're sitting down for dinner, and they're like, what would you like to drink? I said, she wants some water. What are you talking about? She has water. She's not drinking. No wine. It's really. It's the way they age us up. They do is as young women. It's crazy.

[Keke Palmer]

It really is.

[Karen Pittman]

And I constantly have to remind people, My daughter is 15. My daughter, even when she was 12. My daughter is 12. She's not old enough to understand. You can't talk to her like that. You need to be more mindful. Do you know, it's really the way we have to protect and take care of our children. I think we certainly show that how the balance of that in forever.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, it's a great balance. I do want to touch on again, you know, just the realities for our young men. There's another great scene where Don says to Justin's, we got cops out here shooting black boys like it's open season, and I'm tripping. I love that. But then I also felt, oh, my gosh, what. You know, how do we. And this is really more also about your actual life with your son. How do we balance having these conversations with them? I mean, we had Trayvon Martin, you know, then we had George Floyd. I mean, Ahmaud Arbery. There's been. I mean, this has been happening all the time, all of my life. But now, you know, these are the names that I know in my generation.

[Karen Pittman]

Right.

[Keke Palmer]

So it hasn't ended. How do we protect our sons and their joy and their, you know, we got hashtags online, blackboy joy, while at the same time keeping it real with them. Because, you know, Justin, he wants to live life, you know, in this moment. I'm just having fun being me. I want to be there for my girlfriend. I don't want to have to worry about this. But these are real realities.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah. I think the challenge is, is that we. We have to empower them. We have to teach them what Eric was doing, teach them how to manage these situations from a place of strength and calm centeredness. We have to keep them aware of the importance of mastering your emotions, mastering your appetites, mastering your. Your. All of those things that go along with being a man. You have to be a master of those things. They cannot master you. And that. That takes real. That. That takes real detachment as a mother, sometimes as a parent. But. But that empowers them. You know, I don't. I certainly got parented from this place of fear and scarcity. That. That place of. You gotta be one of the words dawn uses. Undeniable.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

And I think that girl.

[Keke Palmer]

It's true. I feel like I felt that my whole life, even though I'm not a black boy, I'm a black girl.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

And I.

[Keke Palmer]

And I felt the same way that I have no other choice but to be undeniable. And I accepted that. But it's hard. And I'm sure you can relate. And this is probably where you were heading. It's hard for a parent to show love while constantly trying to prepare the child for the harsh worlds out there. And I can imagine even harder when we're thinking about a single mother or single parent household where a mother's raising a son.

[Karen Pittman]

Right? Well, because you're instilling a sense of what you want to do is tell them how important it is. But what you're instilling in them is they need to be afraid. And so they need to betray them themselves in the process of. What? What do I think? Or what? I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. I need to be obedient to my mother and my father's will. Actually, you need to know your own will. You need to be able to articulate that. And that's what I've tried to instill in my son. What do you want? What do you want to see? And that has taken his well being, his emotional and mental and psychological well being, has taken the precedent in. In our relationship.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Karen Pittman]

He's now at a point where I have to figure out the moment where I can be his mom and where I really just need to sit back and be his friend. And you still have a young child where you can be his mom. Hunter. I wish I could. I wanna cry. I weep over the fact that my son is now not where your little boy is. You can sit him in your lap and have him, you know, love on you and hug your neck.

[Keke Palmer]

And when I seen that moment of you and Justin in the car where she goes, you know, I think it's right after. It's either Martha's Vineyard or right after that episode where something he's getting in the backseat, he's about to cry, and she's like, well, you know, she's trying to talk. Or maybe it was when they were in the house. It was one of these moments. Dawn is trying to talk to him and he's like, I don't wanna do this. Like, let's just go. I don't wanna be late. I hated those moments of seeing dawn shut out. Not just because I'm a mom. And I have a son. And I know that's my future one day, but I remembered when I did that to my mom.

[Karen Pittman]

Shutting your own mom out. Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

And I was like, oh, my gosh. How are they supposed to reach you? Damn it. That's what I thought.

[Karen Pittman]

How did we get through this?

[Keke Palmer]

I just want to love your mean ass. You know, those teenage years are really.

[Karen Pittman]

Girl, they're the worst. It's brutal.

[Keke Palmer]

They're really bad.

[Karen Pittman]

It's brutal.

[Keke Palmer]

And someone said, like, you lose your kid at, like, 12 or 15, and they come back at 25. That's a long ass time.

[Karen Pittman]

But I tell you what, what you learn in that moment, at least what I learned from my son, is that some of the business of loving a person is witnessing them, is being a witness. Is being a witness watching them.

[Keke Palmer]

Exactly right. Because we are so ready to tell people who they are in the process of them becoming and shifting gears, when really it's so true. And I feel the same way about, like, what my child has taught me. Leo has taught me to just sit back and be a witness, not only to him, but to myself. Oh, you know.

[Karen Pittman]

Girl, girl, girl. How your children will raise you, it's nuts.

[Keke Palmer]

It's nuts.

[Karen Pittman]

How your children will raise. Because you think I'm the mother. I'm a teach you. I'm gonna tell you. And not to put your child in that position, because again, they don't. I mean, your son has been in the world how many years?

[Keke Palmer]

Two.

[Karen Pittman]

Two years. Two years. He don't know enough, you know, but they. But they do come in with wisdom, right, Kiki? And if you let them raise you up a little bit more, they do the rest of the job that your mom tried so hard to do. You couldn't do all of those things because she only had what she had. Do you know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

That's right. And she gave us so we could have more. So we could. Then our children could have more. And it's like, that's such an important thing that I think we do get to. And hopefully my mom has felt that way with me, that it has come back around, you know, I've realized that through my own children, through my own growth, what she did and why I am who I am because of what she gave up, you know?

[Karen Pittman]

And did you go back and apologize and say, mom, I'm so sorry.

[Keke Palmer]

I apologize all the time because I'm like, what a. Seriously, I'm so happy she loved me still. Baby, this is icky Palma.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah, Baby.

[Keke Palmer]

I have never. And I mean, never been more devastated than when I found out that some of y' all been sneaking around behind Domino's back just to get your stuffed crust fix. Now, you know us Virgos are incredibly loyal. Steadfast. Even cheating, especially on something as serious as Parmesan stuffed crust pizza ain't gonna fly in this house. I saw y' all slide into those other pizza spots, drive throughs ordering that cheese filled crust like Domino's, and I wouldn't find out about your little rendezvous. But sweetie, the healing starts today because Domino's just dropped their own stuffed crust. And now y' all got no excuse to keep stepping out on them like this. It's time to put those pizza cheating ways to rest. Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust is serving pure decadence with that. That buttery, handmade dough wrapped around a cascading stream of 100% melty goodness. These are the cheese pulls of your dreams. It's very much a goofy movie level of ooey, gooey, cheesy deliciousness. And of course, your girl can't forget about that signature garlic seasoning and Parmesan sprinkle dance on top of that perfectly baked crust, making every single taste taste like it was blessed by the pizza gods themselves. You can think about it now. I'm already imagining the parm stuffed pie I've been plotting on. Next time I'm placing my order, you best believe I'm having mushrooms, grilled onions, and some extra peppers just to, you know, keep the vegetables on top. Now this is the kind of commitment I'm talking about. No more pizza cheating needed when Domino's is bringing this level of excellence to the table. Order Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust pizza on the Domino's app and use code kiki to get any three topping parmesan stuffed crust pizza for 11.99. Price is higher for some locations. You must ask for this limited time offer. Prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary. Delivery orders subject to local stores. Delivery charge. Holla at your girl. You know, Don is doing obviously everything out of love, but sometimes this is what we're talking about. Her son sees it as control. So did playing her kind of shift, like, were there any light bulb moments for you or triggering things in a positive or a negative way that made you look at your relation to your children or your son specifically differently?

[Karen Pittman]

You know, I am dawn is a spark from Mara Brakakel to me. And my imagination was fired so brightly in the direction of who this woman is. But dawn is not Me. So everything dawn did sort of came out of this gesture towards creating a real human being on screen out of people I know and my mother and my mother's silhouette and. And women I've. I've come to support and love. But dawn is not me. So she did teach me some things that. About positive things, about being a little bit more firm at home.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

But for the most part, I leaned very much in the direction of giving my children and their opinion. Their ability to articulate their opinion in my house has a lot of weight.

[Keke Palmer]

Were there moments or was there a particular moment where Don did something where you were like, ah, should she do this? Or, you know, without. Obviously, we don't really criticize our characters. We wouldn't be able to play them if we did.

[Karen Pittman]

Absolutely not. Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

But was there something she was like, I would have did this differently.

[Karen Pittman]

I think what we did have was dawn drinking a lot more than you guys actually smoking weed. And I was like, does she always have to have a cocktail? Is this. Does she always have to have a glass of red wine so that. Cause I don't drink in front of my cat. I drank when they were. But now I'm sort of, like, pulled back a little bit because, you know, the pandemic. We were drinking way too much of the pandemic. But, yeah, dawn had a lot. Was drinking a lot more wine.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. Yes. Smoking a lot more.

[Karen Pittman]

I said, It's 10 o' clock in the morning. Would dawn really have. No, I'm just kidding. She didn't have anything to. But that was the biggest thing that we. That I remember thinking, we need to do this a little bit differently. But, no, every decision dawn made, I knew even if I was digging a hole for her, I was gonna find an episode later on to dig her out of it. And I think that's why people respect and love that character so much. Because if you have a full. If you've. If you've seen all eight episodes, you know that dawn has true moments of redemption in episode three from episode one, and episode six from episode four.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, I personally lived for dawn down like I think she did. I don't wanna say she did everything right, but I did feel like she kind of was doing what was right as a parent. She wasn't necessarily seeing her child as an individual outside of her parenting, which maybe was the toughest thing, but, you know, interesting part of the show that I love, that it broke open was the whole PWI thing. You know, we're talking about preparing him for school. Giving him the best opportunities as a young black man in the world and his experience with high school and even his challenges, but pushing through. I'm curious of what you thought, you know, how the situation went down in real time and in story, because that really hit me like a ton of bricks where I'm like, damn, he's just. He can't ex. Here is a mother trying to prepare her son for what the world is really like, especially if he's going to be having a chance in corporate America, which corporate America's in everything, even in the arts, as we know, we're still a part of a corporation to some degree, where we would be the minority. How do I balance that reality and prepare my child to have the best outcome but still honor their blackness? Cause, you know, for me, I remember my parents put me into Catholic school early on. I was teased and bullied so bad.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

I look back now, I know why my parents put me in that school. I know the ability I have to code switch. I remember going to the school and this was how I existed. But then when I went home in my neighborhood, this is how I existed. But Justin grew up in a very upper middle class. Where was his ex escape?

[Karen Pittman]

Right.

[Keke Palmer]

So I love that conversation. So I want to bring that up.

[Karen Pittman]

I very much had that experience too. The other day I was in a situation where I was one of, maybe the only one African American actress in a. In a sort of a situation with a lot of other white actresses.

[Keke Palmer]

Right.

[Karen Pittman]

And I felt so triggered because I went back to that experience as a child being in a predominantly white school, and I just didn't feel pretty. Do you know my version of pretty that was pretty was not this curly black hair and this brown skin. And I said, you know, we're not there anymore, Karen. Do you know the things that we carry along with us as African Americans, as women in this world? But yeah, I do think in this case, as far as being in a predominantly white environment, we live in that world so much. Even beyond getting out of these educational institutions, it's been a real lesson for me. I think that black people in general carry this. Carry this experience with us. And it just helps to deepen our experience of life. It creates depth in our relationships. We have a better understanding. But how painful and sad it is to have to have these experiences so young and go out into the world with them and understand where we have to compartmentalize or put them to the side or how are we going to do it. For me, so much of it has Been acting, art, music, to be in the full expression of self.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Karen Pittman]

Using that experience and sharing it and the characters that I create in the music that I play and played. And it sort of frees me up, but in this really interesting way, it frees up other people as a part of this experience. Doing the show, I didn't realize. I had no clue that this character was gonna mean as much as. As she did. But right before this show came to pass, I had to make this incredible gesture towards my daughter to bring her out to LA and enroll her into school and do all that really important mother work to grow up in so many ways. And what I didn't expect when I saw the show was how that would be imbued in dawn, that incredible personal experience, that gesture, that life force was going to further extend to dawn as a character.

[Keke Palmer]

And why do you think it did? I mean, life does. We have an experience in life and it deepens us and we put it into our work. But why do you think that?

[Karen Pittman]

I just think the universe was like, let's help you put all of that thing that you went through, because it's a big thing, number one, Kiki, bringing a child into the world, but then steering that child in the direction you think they need to go. And then they're pulling against you, but then you keep on pulling them. Because I think parenting is the longest game. It is the longest, long, long game. I don't expect to see the dividends if it were, or the results of all the work that I've done with my kids. I don't expect to see it. I probably will be long gone by the time they. Damn, mom was right about, you know what I mean? I might not. And yet, and still I feel like this. I have to do this. This is the right thing to do by you. And so this is what we're going to do. And I think that daw is another gesture of mine artistically into the world to say, hey, this is part of what I have come to earth to do, what I'm here for. This is part of my life force energy. I wanna spend it with these people. I wanna spend it with Mara. I wanna spend it with Kiki. I wanna spend it with, you know, my daughter Lena. This is where my life force has been while I've been on this earth.

[Keke Palmer]

And spoken like a true artist, I couldn't agree with you more. You know, I think it's just the way we feel. We gotta process so much. Let me do it through this piece that I created.

[Karen Pittman]

Right, Right.

[Keke Palmer]

You know, what message do you think that the show is trying to say to parents, you know, that try to do everything right? And I say that because I found myself simultaneously watching the show with my parents. Like, I was watching the show and then my mom texted me, was like, hey, you seen forever. And I'm like, mommy, you watch it forever. Like me and your father watching it right now. And it's like, it's this window for both of us to watch and view what was, what is, what's going to be. And so what do you mean?

[Karen Pittman]

That's the way to watch it, by the way, with your parents, with your kids. That's the way to watch that show. I don't. I don't know what I hope people to get out of it. I hope they're entertained, number one. I hope they laugh, I hope they cry. Hope they find some relief in this world.

[Keke Palmer]

Come on, exhale, Exhale.

[Karen Pittman]

Hope they exhale. That's what I hope. Because you do feel like you're holding your breath a lot. And I think that that's part of. I've been really going over and. Cause listen, Kiki, this show is so huge.

[Keke Palmer]

It's so good. It's crazy. It's incredible. I'm telling you, I watched it in like two days, three days. I'm serious. It's what we needed, what we wanted for our past self, for our future. I'm sorry. I was coming from the place of being Keisha, of being Justin, of being.

[Karen Pittman]

Karen, of being dawn, being Eric and being everybody.

[Keke Palmer]

I was really like, wow, it's crazy. Did everything right.

[Karen Pittman]

I've never been a part of anything that has so special at a stranglehold on chokehold people. I saw it two times. I'm on my third watch. I'm on my fourth watch. I'm like, honey, it's only been out two weeks. What you been doing?

[Keke Palmer]

Seriously? I've also been Zosia. You know what I mean?

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

I've been here.

[Keke Palmer]

The single chilling.

[Karen Pittman]

Yes.

[Keke Palmer]

As well. I've been there. I felt every row. And I think that's why it speaks to so many people. There was no rock left unturned.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah. I also think that we are living in a time that is so hostile to worthy stories of inclusivity and diversity, and we're just so desperate hungry for some spiritual food. We want something that really nourish. Yeah. Because, well, we've been eating these Happy Meals, you know, nothing wrong with McDonald's, but every now and then, you need a really hearty spiritual, home cooked meal. Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Another thing that the show touches on is, you know, not just the reality of racism, even classism, but, you know, Dawn's character, your character, dawn, is also trying to protect Justin from heartbreak, from love. I mean, that's a big thing, too. I felt like my mom was trying to protect me so much from love that I was just like, I don't need a man to this day. You know what I mean? She was protecting me so much. And my dad was like, you could do it on your own. They were both.

[Karen Pittman]

So you could do it on your own.

[Keke Palmer]

That it's like, I don't even necessarily always have space to let a brother in.

[Karen Pittman]

That's right.

[Keke Palmer]

So I'm curious for you when it comes to your daughter very much and your son very much, you know, even with this show and the. How do we. How do we teach our kids how to love and how to be vulnerable, but how to protect themselves?

[Karen Pittman]

How to protect themselves.

[Keke Palmer]

I know, because you should be able to do both.

[Karen Pittman]

I grew up with a mom that was like, not that you don't need, but you better have your own.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes. Like a threat.

[Karen Pittman]

Don't. Don't.

[Keke Palmer]

You better have.

[Karen Pittman]

Don't wait for a man to buy you nothing. You better go.

[Keke Palmer]

And now I can't get nobody to give me no dinner.

[Karen Pittman]

I know.

[Keke Palmer]

Cause I. Too big. Making sure I got it on my own.

[Karen Pittman]

Like, God, yeah, I love buying my own flowers every day.

[Keke Palmer]

Exactly.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Brother's scared.

[Karen Pittman]

But I'm just like, can I get some flowers? Cause no. Because you already got flowers at home, Karen. Everybody sees it. You already bought your own flowers. Yeah, Like, I think that that's part of the challenge, you know, I do. I try to. Some of it for me is just softening, you know?

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Karen Pittman]

Softening around that. It took me a long time to find a man that I would let in, and finally I let him in. My daughter is now 14. Allowed myself to really fall in love when she turned 14, because I wanted her to know. I felt like I had to wait until she was at an age where she knew I devoted so much of my life to her growth. And when I told her that, she was like, mom, you didn't have to do that. I was like, I didn't do it consciously.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. Just what I felt was true.

[Karen Pittman]

She wanted you to know that there was no one more important to me than you. And she's like, well, 14 years you waited. I was like, you know, I had a couple of things.

[Keke Palmer]

I did some on the side.

[Karen Pittman]

I did Something on the side.

[Keke Palmer]

Cause it wasn't serious.

[Karen Pittman]

You know, I was out there playing around a little bit, but I didn't take none of it seriously. I didn't take any of it seriously until I got to Ade, who is now my fiance.

[Keke Palmer]

Shout out to Ade.

[Karen Pittman]

A shout out.

[Keke Palmer]

Bless that, brother.

[Karen Pittman]

We love you. And so, yeah, no, I think for Lena, she does now see me in a relationship with my son. So adores. But for a long time they were like, mom, you're not gonna have anybody. Who do you have? And so I started to do that once I found love for myself. Once I found someone for me, I think that they started to understand that they can go out into the world and find love too. But I had to love myself. And I think that's so much of the message of forever too.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, it is. Familial love, romantic love, self love, self love.

[Karen Pittman]

And I think that that's something that Justin shows from episode one when Keisha blocks him and he steals that car. Not a car car, but he has his driver instructor take him over to Keisha's school. And he sits out there and says, listen, this is who I am. And I think we could have a chance. And, you know, if you let me in, we could have something special. And she's like. And I was like, hmm when I read it, because it was so beautiful. It is about so much of it is about loving yourself. Even we get to that. Justin, Michael Cooper says the same thing. I don't wanna give it away in case anybody has not yet seen it.

[Keke Palmer]

Spoiler alert.

[Karen Pittman]

But it comes. But the end of the story does come, where they start talking about they wanna first love themselves. First do what's right for themselves. And then the reality of letting love.

[Keke Palmer]

Not be codependency and a crutch before to bring you back to yourself. And it's important. I know I gotta go soon, so I wanna bring Sharon, my mom in because I know she's a huge fan of the show as well. And I wan to just, you know, have her talk and us get into a little bit more conversation. So let's bring that cheer in, guys.

[Karen Pittman]

Yay.

[Keke Palmer]

Karen. I could not have you on this show and not have my mother come and talk, you know, and just sharing this discussion. We're all boy moms. We all love forever. And there's so many themes, you know, that I think, you know, are exciting to discuss about this show. So I want to ask you, mom, what was your reaction and connection to dawn and the themes of forever because you were telling me, Karen, that everybody loved Eric, but sometimes they're tough.

[Karen Pittman]

Sometimes they're very tough. With Don. Yes.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

That is a subtle that I have in real life. Everyone loves Larry.

[Keke Palmer]

He's my dad.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

But Sharon is the crazy one.

[Karen Pittman]

First of all, does she not sound just like Keke?

[Keke Palmer]

You don't sound just like Kiki.

[Karen Pittman]

Just a.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Well, that is so funny. Well, you know, I've heard that a couple of times before, but I recognized us so much.

[Karen Pittman]

That's right.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

In that. In forever. Everyone loves Larry. He's the rational one, and I'm the one that over the top and all this kind of stuff. But it's a dynamic that works. You know, he comes in and he's calm and whatever, but if I'm not revel rousing and moving along, a lot of stuff don't get done.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Pittman]

And that's definitely Dawn. I mean, she is a. But they also allow themselves to be who they are. And I think that's very important. Written into the script is that dawn is a little quote unquote, over the top. I don't think she's over the top. We don't think she's over the top.

[Keke Palmer]

No, I don't.

[Karen Pittman]

And Erica's kind of laid back and pragmatic. You know what I mean? And that works for them. I think that that also allows them to have the relationship they have.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, we were talking about a lot of the themes around, you know, Justin going to bwi, being around predominantly white kids and the racial expectation there, and even the conversation about Keisha when. When, you know, Karen's character, Dawn, finally realizes about, you know, or learns about this sex tape. She's like the village of her school failed her as a young black woman. They totally did not treat her with innocence or concern. They just wrote her off and didn't even tell her mother or anything. So I want to talk to you, mom, because obviously, you know, the twins, my little brother and little sister, they went to predominantly white schools most of their life until Laurencia went to, you know, famu. She chose the HBCU specifically. And then obviously, Loreal and I had two totally different experiences going to a predominantly white institution. So what was it like for you? How was it watching that on screen? And then how did you handle it in real time?

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Oh, my goodness. So we didn't pick a school because it was predominantly white. Right. We chose a school because it was the best curriculum we wanted. And also, Faith Based, you know, my husband is a deacon and, you know, Catholic faith. He had graduated from Catholic schools. And so, you know, every time we would say, what do we want for the kids? Most of the time, I would win. You know, it was like, I want this for the kids. I want this for the kids. And he would let me. But for school, he was adamant. He says, I will take work. Two jobs.

[Karen Pittman]

Wow.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

To put my kids through the right education. The right education. So I went along with him because he was just so passionate about it. I went to public school. I thought I did just fine, but. But he said it's a. It teaches them. It gives them more of a. A chance on life. It teaches them more how to. How to care for other people, how to have you. You know, that's what he said. So I went along with it. So when Kiki, you know, years later, told me what the experience was like, it hurt my heart.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

What I would tell you during. And you. Would. You. I feel like, you know, you and dad really tried to. I don't have any criticism towards what you did, because I felt it was explained in the moment as best as you could as a kid. But I just remember you telling me people would pay for your lips.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

People would, you know.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Yeah. I remember.

[Keke Palmer]

Encourage me.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

There was a specific incident when you would come home and you'd say, they call. You know, I would put the little gel in her hair and brush her little hair up. And she would say, they, you know, said her hair was hard. Cause the jail would, you know, we're in Chicago. It's freezing. So the hair would. The gel would, you know, freeze. And they would talk about her hair, and they would say things about her. And I say, people, one day, people are gonna pay for your lips. Your hair is so gorgeous. And it makes me want to cry, because when she did. Nope.

[Keke Palmer]

It was her hair.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

And people don't understand. She had been in the business for, what, 17 years.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

And for a director to say, I want your hair, and for millions of people to see her hair. And there was a scene where she's in the car with Daniel Kalula, and she leans her hair out the window and a curl just blows.

[Karen Pittman]

I remember this scene, and I remember.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Telling her as a little girl, your hair is beautiful.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Don't ever let anybody tell you that it isn't. Now, we, as black women in this industry, we wear wigs and things like that because we trying to protect our hair.

[Keke Palmer]

We're trying to protect our hair. It's also historically, I mean, we just got the Crown act passed. Yeah. What does that mean? That means that it was actually, to some degree, almost illegal for us to wear our hair as a natural.

[Karen Pittman]

As you can lose your job, you can lose dates. It still isn't legal. Right. They don't have. They have not enacted the Crown Act.

[Keke Palmer]

So it's not just we protecting our hair. It's that this is systemically, you know, this is programmed.

[Karen Pittman]

It's a form of discrimination.

[Keke Palmer]

It is.

[Karen Pittman]

It is a different form of discrimination.

[Keke Palmer]

And when you think about me, when I came up in this industry as a young black child actor that had her own show, there was a lot of assimilation attached to that. I had to reprogram my connection to weaves and wigs and stuff to know that I could do it, but I'm fine without it because that was a big part of the sell. You know, being able to be an actor or a black actress that can show up in white spaces and not be too. That's a thing, you know what I mean? To know, okay, what's me trying to make it in this world and understand this structure and this language, but also remain myself. So when I see the, you know, the cultural and social conversations around this and yes, Nope. Jordan Peele's ability to be somebody in the front line of that and say, yeah, we need this kind of black American iconography up there. That is what changes that. Because we can only do so much in our workspace when, yes, we're still being discriminated against. So those. You know, I spent many years in this industry where that was just not a topic.

[Karen Pittman]

Well, also, thank you for sharing that because it was so powerful. And I think it's not just tears for your daughter, but also tears for all who we were as young black girls being told we had to be different, we couldn't be who we were. There's a very conscious effort on the part of hair and makeup team on Forever the Dawn would start the show with natural hair, that her hair would end up being blown dry, but it would also look like it had texture in it. These are real conversations that we know we need to have, especially when we're putting out these stories, we're throwing out these stories. This is what we think that black families look like nowadays. Pay attention to this. We know it's an important conversation to have.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

I love Dawn's character because I identify with her so much because she went to Northwest, so she was an overachiever. She understands corporate America. She probably is the black woman that's in the office with the white executives. So she's able to assimilate, but she also knows how to Electric slide.

[Karen Pittman]

Yes.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

You know.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

She also knows what it's like to be in the hood. And, you know, the scene that I. First of all, I love so much, but the little things that I loved is that she went and drove her car to the hood.

[Karen Pittman]

Oh, yeah.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

And she wasn't like, oh, my God. I'm in the hood. I thought that's where Mara would take it. I said, now watch her drive this little girl home and then act like she never been to Inglewood.

[Keke Palmer]

Mom, I'm on the floor.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

But you didn't. That dawn did not.

[Keke Palmer]

Dawn was like, hey, yeah.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Oh, I remember this. This is you. She wasn't ashamed.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, she wasn't ashamed. I think that that's also the part that when I hear you were bringing up, you know, the Cosby show or that show came out in a time where respectability, politics were also, like, a form of activism. Right. It's like showing up how you look, how you act, and what your expectation is of others. It's a. It's not about gatekeeping, but it's about protecting and being able to create a space for black people to succeed at heights. What we saw in that scene was an evolution of that.

[Karen Pittman]

Yep. Absolutely.

[Keke Palmer]

Where it's like, it's cool if she from over here, too.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

It ain't about.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm not gonna. You know, I think that's important because it's like, yeah, we can be this, and we can expect this, but also, like, if you. You know, we don't know what we.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Don'T know, or we.

[Karen Pittman]

We.

[Keke Palmer]

We is where we at.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

It would have been typical. It would have been typical for her to have that conversation with her son. Well, you know, she from the hood. You know, she never went there.

[Karen Pittman]

Never.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

But she did go there with the same sex tape.

[Keke Palmer]

And I understand that.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Yeah. She needs to tell her son, honey, everybody don't want to be saved. You know, you got this little girl, and I'm glad. And I've struggled with this with Kiki many times, because what happens is you raise your kid to want to help everyone.

[Keke Palmer]

You.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

You put them in church, you do all of the right things, and you tell them, don't look down on people and. And be nice to everyone. Then the first time they bring one of their little straight friends home.

[Karen Pittman]

That.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

You know, is not about good at all.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

What do you say? Because you've spent all this time Telling.

[Karen Pittman]

Them to help you.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

And that's where my husband came in and said that's where he came in in the show. He said, sharon Keke is smart. She will figure it out.

[Karen Pittman]

She will figure it out.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

If this person doesn't. Is not someone who should be in her life, then let her decide. Because what you're gonna do is you're gonna alienate her, you're gonna push her away, and she's gonna go to that person.

[Karen Pittman]

Right, right, right.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

So make your mind up. Do you wanna push her to people, or do you want to let her live her life and figure it out?

[Karen Pittman]

And figure it out.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

And when Wood's character said that, he was like, I told you, not the.

[Keke Palmer]

Show, the representation y' all needed. I'm on the floor. Well, I could go on and on and on with this, but I just wanted to have this moment. I mean, I'm just so happy about the show. I can't wait till the second season of Forever and to see where this journey's gonna take us. Cause the show starts in, what, 2018 or something? So, I mean, we're 20, 25, so I'm expecting quite a few more seasons to see where this family has left off, where these two lovers, you know, teen lovers, have left off. But I thank you guys for this show. You know, congrats. Really congrats. And I thank you so much for coming on here.

[Sharon (Keke's Mom)]

Yeah. You are awesome.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Karen Pittman]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Keke Palmer]

Forever isn't just a title. It's a statement about the love we carry, the lessons we pass on, and the legacy we build. Karen Pittman, thank you so much for reminding us that black motherhood is sacred. And it's time we keep honoring that on and off screen. And watching you, it reminded me of my own mama. The way she raised me, fought for me, guided me. That's what Dawn's doing, doing. And I know so many folks are going to feel that watching this show. Until next time. You know, it's your girl. Baby, this is. This is Kiki. Baby, this is Kiki Palma.

[Karen Pittman]

Yeah.