First Love, Black Fatherhood & the Creator and Cast of Forever with Mara Brock Akil, Wood Harris & Michael Cooper Jr.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Baby, This is Keke Palmer Episode Title: First Love, Black Fatherhood & the Creator and Cast of Forever with Mara Brock Akil, Wood Harris & Michael Cooper Jr. Release Date: June 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Baby, This is Keke Palmer, host Keke Palmer delves deep into the heart of Netflix's acclaimed series, Forever. Joined by the show's creator Mara Brock Akil, seasoned actor Wood Harris, and breakout star Michael Cooper Jr., the conversation navigates the intricate themes of first love, black fatherhood, and the nuanced portrayal of Black teenagers' emotional landscapes.

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Discussing Forever and Its Impact

Keke Palmer opens the discussion with enthusiasm for Forever, highlighting its emotional depth and authentic representation of teenage life, particularly from a Black perspective.

Keke Palmer (00:00): "Forever captures something we rarely see on screen. The emotional truth of being a teenager, and more specifically, being a black teenager. It's honest, it's messy, it's funny, and it's got us talking."

Themes Covered:

• First Love and Heartbreak: The series intricately explores the tumultuous journey of first love, heartbreak, and the complexities that accompany teenage relationships.
• Black Fatherhood: Wood Harris's portrayal of Eric Edwards offers a heartfelt depiction of Black fatherhood, showcasing a balance of strength and vulnerability.
• Emotional Authenticity: The show stands out for its genuine portrayal of teenage emotions, moving beyond superficial representations to provide a more relatable and raw narrative.

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Collaboration with Regina King and Production Elements

The episode delves into the collaborative efforts behind Forever, especially the pivotal role Regina King played in directing the pilot.

Wood Harris (02:02): "When I lock in, I could start to feel my co-creation with God, with source... I am over the moon with the reception."

Key Points:

• Regina King's Direction: Regina King’s experience and vision significantly shaped the aesthetic and emotional tone of the series.
• Cinematography: The collaboration with directors Michael Combio Fernandez and Chris Manley ensured a matured and visually captivating portrayal of the show's themes.

Mara Brock Akil (04:20): "The music is awesome... the show holds a lot of expectational tension. It makes you feel like, okay, what's going on next for these people?"

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Personal Connections and Chicago Influence

Both Mara Brock Akil and Wood Harris share personal anecdotes about their upbringing in Chicago and how it influenced the storytelling of Forever.

Mara Brock Akil (07:22): "I developed a colorful eye to tell stories because my neighborhood... was very colorful."

Influence of Chicago:

• Storytelling Aesthetics: The vibrant and diverse environment of West Chicago provided a rich backdrop for the series’ narrative and visual elements.
• Community and Family Dynamics: The strong sense of community and familial bonds typical of Chicago life are intricately woven into the show's fabric.

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Representation and Breaking Stereotypes

A significant portion of the conversation centers on dismantling stereotypes associated with Black men and showcasing their emotional depth.

Wood Harris (23:18): "This is how we get that... we need to see it because it's true."

Key Discussions:

• Vulnerability of Black Men: Wood Harris emphasizes the importance of portraying Black men as emotionally aware and vulnerable, countering prevalent stereotypes.
• Black Fatherhood: Eric Edwards is depicted not just as a protector but as a nurturing figure who balances strength with emotional support.

Keke Palmer (24:00): "It's okay to love... being vulnerable doesn't make you weak."

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Adaptation from Judy Blume's Work

Mara Brock Akil discusses the adaptation process from Judy Blume's original work, highlighting the significant changes made to resonate with contemporary audiences.

Wood Harris (29:14): "The book was 50 years ago, so I had to look at what young people are facing today."

Key Adaptation Changes:

• Race of Families: Changing the race of the families to Black allows for a fresh and necessary perspective, enriching the narrative with cultural depth.
• Character Role Reversals: By swapping the roles of Katherine and Michael, the series presents Black male vulnerability and female strength in a new light.

Keke Palmer (29:48): "I really loved how you flipped the stereotype... showed that vulnerability is a strength."

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Casting and Character Development

The casting choices for Forever are lauded for their authenticity and depth, particularly highlighting Michael Cooper Jr.'s role as Justin.

Michael Cooper Jr. (37:12): "It was easy for me to connect... express it the best way I could."

Highlights:

• Wood Harris as Eric Edwards: His portrayal brings a multi-dimensional view of fatherhood, balancing authority with tenderness.
• Michael Cooper Jr. as Justin: As the breakout star, Cooper's character embodies the emotional struggles and growth of a young Black man navigating love and self-identity.

Keke Palmer (31:46): "Justin looked like someone I know... it's important for us to see ourselves."

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Final Thoughts on Culture and Storytelling

Mara Brock Akil and Wood Harris emphasize the need for diverse and authentic storytelling within Black culture, advocating for narratives that reflect true experiences and emotions.

Mara Brock Akil (39:56): "Through the lens of blackness, there's a lot of healing for everybody because we know what suffering is. And yet in that suffering, we know joy."

Key Points:

• Recalibrating Narratives: Moving beyond the often trauma-focused stories to include joy, resilience, and everyday triumphs.
• Cultural Contribution: Encouraging Black storytellers to take the lead in narrating their own stories, fostering a richer and more varied cultural landscape.

Wood Harris (43:50): "Great writing will bring out great acting... it takes a village to make these shows."

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Conclusion

Keke Palmer wraps up the episode with heartfelt appreciation for the cast and creators of Forever, highlighting the show's impact on her own life and its potential to resonate with a broad audience. The conversation underscores the importance of authentic representation, emotional honesty, and the power of storytelling in shaping cultural narratives.

Keke Palmer (50:02): "Thank you both so much for coming to the show... what more is going to teach me now before I go, I have to play a game with you guys."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Keke Palmer (00:00): "Forever captures something we rarely see on screen."
• Wood Harris (02:02): "I am over the moon with the reception."
• Mara Brock Akil (04:20): "The show holds a lot of expectational tension."
• Mara Brock Akil (07:22): "I developed a colorful eye to tell stories."
• Wood Harris (23:18): "We need to see it because it's true."
• Keke Palmer (29:48): "I really loved how you flipped the stereotype."
• Michael Cooper Jr. (37:12): "It was easy for me to connect."
• Mara Brock Akil (39:56): "Through the lens of blackness, there's a lot of healing for everybody."
• Wood Harris (43:50): "Great writing will bring out great acting."
• Keke Palmer (50:02): "Thank you both so much for coming to the show."

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This episode of Baby, This is Keke Palmer offers an insightful exploration into the making and impact of Forever, celebrating authentic Black storytelling and the powerful performances that bring it to life. For those seeking a deeper understanding of the series and its cultural significance, this conversation is a must-listen.

Transcript

[Kiki Palmer]

This episode is presented in partnership with Airbnb. Y' all ready to celebrate independence in style? Get yourself a guest favorite spot and make your summer memories in one of the most loved homes on Airbnb. Now, let's roll. Hey, y' all. So if you haven't already heard about Netflix new series Forever, where have you been? Under a rock. This show has had me deep in my feels from the very first episode. We are talking first love, heartbreak, awkward sex, complic. A prom moment that goes all the way off, and yes, even a buzzer beater at a big game. But beyond the drama, Forever captures something we rarely see on screen. The emotional truth of being a teenager, and more specifically, being a black teenager. It's honest, it's messy, it's funny, and it's got us talking. Which is why I'm so excited for today's guest, the brilliant creator of Forever, Mara Brock Akil. And our new favorite TV dad, Wood Harris. And later on, we're talking to the incredible Michael Cooper Jr. All about his breakout role. So let's get into Mara Wood. Welcome to the show. No matter what we doing in the car, just chilling pop on Amazon music, sit back and listen. Life, love, sex, science, covering it all, especially the bad. Cause money always evolved no matter what it is, we gonna make it make sense. Nothing else will do but kick it with the homies and kids. So grab you a drink and a snack, you enjoy and get into the vibe that only one you know it's your girl baby, this is. This is Kiki, baby. This is Kiki Palma. Yeah. You guys, I am through the moon and so excited to get into this with you guys. You guys have gotten me through my last few days. I watched this show, I watched forever within the blink of an eye, guys.

[Wood Harris]

Oh, my goodness. You watched eight episodes down, girl.

[Kiki Palmer]

Eight episodes immediately ate them up. And it was just. Well, first of all, congratulations, you guys. Number one on Netflix 96 on Rotten Tomatoes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you.

[Kiki Palmer]

I mean, Regina King, she's an ep. She directed the pilot.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

There's so many good things around this. I mean, how do you guys feel? I don't wanna. Were you surprised? Because your work always is so well received.

[Wood Harris]

Thank you.

[Kiki Palmer]

First of all, as yours as well would.

[Wood Harris]

Thank you for having us. I thank you for just the love. I think that's what I. You know, I think we poured love into it and to get the love back, I always say. Thank you. Of course, I'm not surprised, but I am in awe. I thought that I could. There's. When I lock in. I could start to feel my co creation with God, with source. Yes, I understand it. So my job is to keep. Keep my eye on the prize, so to speak. And I thought if I landed the plane, I think we would be successful. I just didn't know what success would actually look like. And that's the awe part. And that is I am over the moon with the reception.

[Kiki Palmer]

I mean, guys, the show is so special in every way from the performance, the storytelling, but also the cinematography. I remember watching this thinking to myself, like, if I'm blasted into another universe of love and basketball and what it would. I would need this to look like, matured in a modern era. Like, it was so beautiful to watch. Shout out to Regina for directing the pilot. I mean, what was that process like with her?

[Wood Harris]

Oh, I mean, you're working with Regina King. Exactly. For her to have what she's done in front of the camera for so many, many, many years and her career as a director. You know, we first worked together on Being Mary Jane. She was early in her directing career. She directed an episode of Being Mary Jane that really. That was the beginning. Toward the beginning of her directing. And always wanted to come. Yeah. And wanted her to come. But I think those choices that you make of what goes on the screen, to have a collaborator with her to talk about. Wood Harris. But I'm gonna give a shout out to our dp. Who set the look? Michael Combio Fernandez.

[Kiki Palmer]

Michael. Amazing job.

[Wood Harris]

No, Amazing job.

[Kiki Palmer]

Beautiful.

[Wood Harris]

Yes. And Chris Manley was our additional dp. And these two men together held the look and the vision of what I wanted from the beginning and what we set up.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The music is awesome too, though. I think that it really is. You know, you could talk about so many aspects of it. You could talk about individual characters or the look of it or the music of. Holds a lot of. To me, you know, the show holds a lot of expectational tension.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Like. Like, it makes you feel like, okay, what's going on next for these people? Because we all can relate to the wonderment of love. And is she really like me? Is she tripping or is she with somebody? Is she kind of like.

[Kiki Palmer]

And where is this going? And why is it starting in 2018? Cause we're in 2025. I need to know where this is going.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, we jumping ahead. Jumping ahead. Wait, Relax. All right.

[Kiki Palmer]

Geez.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Now I gotta act like Eric and bring balance to the conversation.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes, please.

[Wood Harris]

We all love Eric.

[Kiki Palmer]

I know Eric.

[Wood Harris]

I mean, is he like the best, best TV daddy? He's the Best TV daddy.

[Kiki Palmer]

He supports the mama. He still holds it down for the son. He's bringing us into generational triumph.

[Wood Harris]

He gets the kids at school on top. I even love the little moments of like, come on, come on, come on, Jaden, we gotta go. You know what I mean? And the little kiss to the wife. Those little touches that were. Not that they were written in the script, but they were about how to build the character of the family. But really the head of the household kind of. See what I'm saying? What does he look like? What is the piece in this house? And it was set the tone by Eric.

[Kiki Palmer]

And what's funny thing. Enough. You and Mara have known each other before your son.

[Wood Harris]

Okay. Yeah.

[Kiki Palmer]

You were his basketball coach when he was a kid.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. So probably. I mean, this was maybe. This was a while ago.

[Wood Harris]

So your scene was about what Yasine was about. Our kids were about, what, six, eight or nine. Eight or nine.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So they were like eight or nine.

[Wood Harris]

And they're 21 now.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And they're 21. So this was 12, 13 years ago. And yeah, we coached them, like at the Y. Okay.

[Wood Harris]

Off of Crenshaw. It was.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm telling you, off of Crenshaw. And Yeah.

[Kiki Palmer]

So were you guys the only people in the entertainment industry that were there? But, I mean, it's la. I guess it could be more people, but.

[Wood Harris]

But, you know, it's. For me, you know, I know who Wood Harris is. So there's at this point where I'm just trying to get the kid to basket. And then you walk in there and you're like, oh, that's Woods a coach. I mean, he was the assistant. Were you the assistant coach? Yeah. You were assistant coach. And I was like, that's what. But he was so different than the characters that we saw on television. And that was at that point, I was like, I love all these colors on him. And I was like that. I remember thinking back then, people need to see this side of Wood Harris. I didn't have it in my mind that it was gonna be Eric Edwards, but it clearly was seated at that time when he was just so loving and supportive to the kids. I mean, like, these kids played so well because of your. You were the best cheerleader to those kids. You were hyping them up, giving them good critique, but also making them believe.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah.

[Kiki Palmer]

Well, as soon as you came in, we both were like, chicago. Love Chicago. Shutty town. I gotta ask you, growing up there. Cause people always ask me this, and I always have this conversation with Chicago folks. What do you feel. How did it shape you, Your discipline, your hustle, being from Chicago and being an entertainer and having this longevity?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Well, you might be like me in a sense, where. I mean, I think I developed a colorful eye to tell stories with. So I think my neighborhood, which I grew up on the west side of Chicago, and. Very colorful.

[Wood Harris]

Yeah, I'm gonna say it. That's very colorful.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That's the way I kind of put it.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah, that's colorful.

[Wood Harris]

That was real colorful.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And if you're not in the. If you're not in the. If you're in the mix with this stuff, you know, then you just get the. You just get the colors and so. But then, you know, like, I was telling Mara, like, me and my brother were raised by a man, you know, by my dad.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So it's a little different.

[Kiki Palmer]

Like, no mom.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I have my mom. But my father raised us, though. Yeah, my mother was there, but my dad was just the head of the household.

[Kiki Palmer]

That's right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So she wasn't absent at all. Yeah, but he.

[Wood Harris]

He had joined your hips.

[Mara Brock Akil]

He just raised us. He just was that type of man. His nickname was man. And part of Eric is definitely like. And my father's deceased now. He's been deceased for a while. And I was talking to my brother a couple days ago about it, and it's so awesome to have sort of like that guardian angel, in my opinion, to like, guide me over these. This wonderful, like, loving stories. So, yeah, I really look at it like that. I look at it like, wow, I get to be an awesome father. You see me as a drug dealer. Okay.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You've seen me do some really many different things. Not just that, but you've seen, like, many things. Many different things. And oddly enough, not just the simplest loving man, you know, over the decades, you not see me just be normal. This is normal to me. I don't know. People treat it like it's not normal. Eric is not normal in society, I guess, because when I look at the.

[Kiki Palmer]

Animation, but not shown or not represented.

[Wood Harris]

Not amplified and not amplified globally, too.

[Mara Brock Akil]

There you go.

[Kiki Palmer]

There you go. That's right. I think that's the big thing that I love was, like, I love seeing his father right here like this, because this remind me of my father.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. That's what I want to say. Yeah.

[Wood Harris]

That's why he exists. He's just not on screen at all.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. It's like they don't exist on screen, and then people are thirsty for that. And I just wouldn't think it would Be that way. You know, I'm sorry, I was telling Mara.

[Kiki Palmer]

I am a little surprised at other people's surprise. Well, at what they say.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Like, you know, this is the. If you go on TikTok, when my daughter was like, look at this, there's people on there her age and she's 21. That dad is this and that. And I'm like, wow.

[Wood Harris]

Yeah, he's now the dad. He's the dad in the lexicon. And that is.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And I think that's amazing.

[Wood Harris]

That's beautiful.

[Kiki Palmer]

It's amazing.

[Wood Harris]

And it's what we need to see and it's intentional. Can I add to the Chicago conversation?

[Kiki Palmer]

Of course. Yes, sir.

[Wood Harris]

Shout out to Northwestern. I was, you know, Chicago adjacent and Evanston, but I always had my butt in the city. I did. I love Chicago. And what I love about it is a work hard, play hard kind of city.

[Kiki Palmer]

It is.

[Wood Harris]

And that is whatever the season is. There are gonna be some spades played, it's gonna be some dominoes played. Everybody, everybody, everybody's going to go for the sport of the month. We're gonna gather, we're gonna get together. And I think that community, that energy, that familial, whether it's literally family, but friend of family, just the idea that we are not gonna get through this alone. We have to get through together. And I think, I like to think that I brought that type of tone to setting the tone for that so that the village could show their best light. And I think that's why the show is getting so much attention, because everybody's love is in the show. We started every production meeting, every table read with this is a love letter. This is a love story within a love letter to Los Angeles and asked everyone to remember their first love, remember their first love to their career, first love to, you know, their friends, to their, to their. To their romantic partner, to, you know, to their parents. And can we put that in the show? And I think so. That's why I also, I'm a little. I knew the love would come back because I saw the love go in from everybody and that's Chicago.

[Kiki Palmer]

Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. But now that makes me think about, you know, another teenage project that you worked on many years ago. Moesha Mo to that. Mo to that. One of my all time favorite shows. Girl, I gotta journal today because of Brandi for all my life, you know, because of the impact that show had on me.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That's amazing.

[Kiki Palmer]

I mean, it's huge.

[Wood Harris]

That was my first major show. I Worked on South Central. I wanna give a shout out.

[Kiki Palmer]

Oh my gosh. Shout out to South Central.

[Wood Harris]

But that is how I met Ralph Farquhar.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes.

[Wood Harris]

Who I'm always gonna speak his name because he's my mentor. We don't do this. And I learned how to make television through him.

[Kiki Palmer]

I credit him to discovering me. Ralph, really? I mean, really. When I first heard tell that story, I don't know it, girl. When I first came to California, a friend of my mom introduced me to Ralph. At that time, Ralph had a deal at Disney. He did my pilot. Kiki and Jamal created a pilot for me pitched at Disney. I filmed my own pilot. And from there, I mean, we've always remained in touch. But like that was the pinnacle moment for me was before Keelin to be in everything.

[Wood Harris]

But see, it's interesting because that Ralph Parkwire. So as his grasshopper, I think the spotting of talent and developing talent or reimagining talent. So even for Wood like Wood's played this kind of. You've played a similar role over and over in different iterations and some expansion. But I think this is. Would you say this would be the biggest departure?

[Mara Brock Akil]

This is the biggest departure.

[Wood Harris]

And I think that I got that gift. It was encouraged and I got to witness it through Ralph. About how you, how does the talent really serve the story and how you can then find the human, Human layers in it by what, you know, what you as. As Keke brings. You would bring Ralph Farquhar.

[Kiki Palmer]

Oh my God. Shout out to him. I love that we got to give him that shout out because he's impacted me as well. Yisrael, y' all, I am still thinking about this incredible girls trip I took a while back at this amazing Airbnb. When I tell you we lived our best lives. The spot had this gorgeous backyard Jacuzzi and our host was so sweet walking us through how to get those jets just right. We had in house massages all day and the kind of peace and quiet you can only get when you have the whole place to yourself. That's exactly what I love about Airbnb. You can search through their guest favorites to find some highly rated most loved homes that give you the space to truly celebrate your way. And this fourth of July, whether you're looking for a spot with a spacious deck made for family barbecues, a cozy living room for late night card games, or prime locations to catch these fireworks, these homes hit different. And child, having your own space means celebrating without worrying about hotel neighbors. So this Independence Day, declare your freedom from Ordinary vacations. Book an Airbnb and create memories that will have you feeling patriotic all year long. Trust me, it's the kind of celebrating that'll have you saying God bless America and Airbnb. This episode is brought to you by Saks. Hold up. Let me put you onto something major. Your summer just got a whole lot more luxurious because Saks Fifth Avenue is now on Amazon. Whether you're hunting for that perfect Giambattista Valli dress for your bestie's botanical backyard brunch or that stunning Etro captain for your Amalfi coast getaway, Saks on Amazon has got all your summer moments covered. I'm literally obsessed with this new Balmain beach tote that I've been eyeing for my next summer vacay. And it's not just the vacation fits. We're talking effortless luxury for every every moment. With Stella McCartney's new sustainable sundresses, some must have D G sunglasses, and all the designer handbags and beauty products you need to serve all season long. From brunch to Boardwalk rooftop parties to resort pools, Saks has curated the perfect edit for every summer scenario. Have you seen their weekend wear collection? With these pieces, you'll be getting certified head turner status on every boulevard. And don't even get me started on their accessories. Your girl is def. Adding those new Balmain sandals to Cart Expeditious. The cherry on top. It's the luxury shopping experience you love from Saks with that easy Amazon delivery we all live for. Get the Saks designer brands you love delivered just like that new on Amazon. But what I see in your work also is a lot of you in it. I mean, even when talking about Moesha, I know Lena Waithe said on the legacy podcast, I love that, you know that one of the plot lines was yours, that you actually brought your journal to the book.

[Wood Harris]

Yes, I brought the hello Kitty diary into the room.

[Kiki Palmer]

Okay.

[Wood Harris]

So shout out to people in their diaries can turn your lemons into lemonade. Okay. Because that's how Moesha was. I was just pitching my heart out from my own life. And really I started going back to Northwestern. I was a journalism major. And I feel like really that that journey through journalism really set a foundation for who I am as a writer in this business. And I tell the truth through fiction. So I am gonna be my first muse. My oldest son was the muse, the one that would coached. He was the window into this world to me for forever. And then of course, his friends that are always in my kitchen. And then you Go beyond them, and you start to see all these other young people in this generation. But I will. If you. In my purview, I am watching, and so I will. But I want to watch human behavior. Sociology is one of my favorite courses, and I wish I had taken more anthropology. But studying people and their study and the behavior is. What you're seeing also is the relatability in the show. And I will muse off of my own life quite a bit.

[Kiki Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Wood Harris]

Even. Even the things that I want to correct about myself, I think these shows are mirrors. So how we respond to it are mirrors. And so sometimes I just want to. I want to clean up my own image sometimes. And I don't mind sort of being honest about the things. You know, dawn is a. Dawn is a. Karen's role. Karen's role. Karen Pittman, who.

[Kiki Palmer]

All I need you to know, she's a. I mean, look, I'm a new mom. My son is only 2 years old. But watching this show, I went back and forth from being Keisha to being Justin to being the parents.

[Wood Harris]

I love it.

[Kiki Palmer]

And I'm like, man, Eric and Don, they're such great characters. Cause a lot of times when we get a show centered around young people's love.

[Wood Harris]

Right.

[Kiki Palmer]

We don't really get much dynamic from the relationship with the parents. But I saw the parents world just as real as I saw the kids world.

[Wood Harris]

But they're the most informative.

[Kiki Palmer]

Oh, my God. Me and my mom. My mom and my dad were watching the show at the same time. That's how great it was, how it was balanced between both of those perspectives.

[Wood Harris]

Yeah, but I mean, think about it. If you're a young person, who's the most influential on your life, good, bad, or the other, it's gonna be your parents. And so they had to be formidable. They had to be dynamic in order for those young people to be. You know, even Zosia's character, they had. Those parents had to be the challenge to these. They're a part of the obstacle in this love story as well. But they're also the reason why these kids know what love is, because they're both loved in their respective environments, in their respective households. Even if it's flawed here and there, but it's all out of love.

[Kiki Palmer]

It's so crazy when you say that, because even when you look at Justin's character and Keisha's character, Keisha sees so much of it being a struggle because she's watched her mom struggle.

[Wood Harris]

Right? Right.

[Kiki Palmer]

And then you have Justin, who's Kind of like, let's just do the damn. You know what I mean? He feels that love is the center because that's what he's seen at home. I didn't even think about that till just now when you're saying that.

[Wood Harris]

And that was intentional. Oh, my gosh. So thank you for seeing that. Keke spread it out to the world.

[Kiki Palmer]

It's so freaking good. Before I go totally in the show, I also want to mention, I mean, we're talking about all the iconic things you've done. Wood, I gotta stop for a minute, talk about the Wire. I mean, it's been 20 years since that show. Did you think it would hold up like it did? And also, above the rim, you worked with one of my favorites, Tupac Shakur. I mean, I got to hear a little story of something.

[Wood Harris]

Well, I didn't think.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I didn't think the Wire would hold up. I just didn't know, you know?

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I really don't really sort of have a lot of expectations. You learn, you know, in the business, after you finish, you just let it go, in a sense, and you wonder about it. So I didn't really have. No. But for it to become what it has become is just. I mean, it's pretty. It's just awesome.

[Kiki Palmer]

I mean, and then seeing Michael, our.

[Wood Harris]

Boy, Michael B. I know.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, yeah.

[Wood Harris]

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

[Kiki Palmer]

It's like everybody has the longevity, I think, of the people from that show also gives me so much joy.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. Idris Mike. God rest in peace. Michael K. Rest in peace.

[Kiki Palmer]

That was horribly tragic.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Hasan Johnson, Wendell Pierce, all of those guys are just phenomenal. It's an alumni. I'm glad. I mean, I got more alumni than anybody. I went to five schools. You know what I'm saying? So I'm in the Wire alumni now. I'm forever. And I mean, this is a joyous ride. Let me say one thing about Mara, too, and her ability to cast. Right. Cause I said it to her before, but. But Justin, the casting of him is just amazing because you can cast Wood and go, okay, I seen him do something. And Karen. Okay, cool. And even lovey, I loved her in Greenleaf. For him to be a newcomer with no real background and Hollywood would just be like, has he done five things yet? Okay, cool. Cast him. He ain't done nothing. Okay. He did, like, a short, I think.

[Wood Harris]

No, I want to shout out Saddam Sanaa.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah.

[Wood Harris]

Sanaa did something. Yes. And so we had that conversation. That's Village, too. To be able to call Sanaa and be like, tell me about this young man.

[Kiki Palmer]

Everything about him.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

Was perfect. Perfect. Honestly, everything. I'm like, this kid is. We don't know him yet, but you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Feel like you do.

[Wood Harris]

But, you know. You know what's great about the creative process is when you. So I have this idea, and you kind of pull it out of the sky. And once you sit in the seat and start molding it, what you are seeking is seeking you. And so I feel like, as I was writing it, even your availability. Even the synchronicity of availability. I mean, you might be right, but you may not be available.

[Kiki Palmer]

Right.

[Wood Harris]

Those things. But I felt like that it felt like a calling. And so Michael, specifically, because he was a Later. Kim Coleman. Shout out to Kim Coleman, our casting director. I mean, come on.

[Kiki Palmer]

She's been casting since I was a kid.

[Wood Harris]

Okay. She's amazing.

[Kiki Palmer]

She's amazing.

[Wood Harris]

Who you collaborate with. And I'm like, okay, Kim, keep going. What else is out there? Who else is out there? And I think Michael came in the later sort of tranche of actors off the before. We need to bring people in. Right. And he came. I was like, who is this? And you do you go right to the resume. You're like, oop, bloop, boop. And the only thing was on it was Sanaa. Sanaya cast him. And I love the ability to even. Even the synchronicity of that. The one thing is someone I can pick up the phone and have a real conversation with.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That's a perfect storm of things.

[Wood Harris]

And that's a perfect storm of things. And.

[Kiki Palmer]

But alignment.

[Wood Harris]

But television is a different beast than making a movie. And the pace that it goes and the rigor that it goes, it's a different type of beast. And I was just so thankful that he was ready. Well, we were seeking him. He sought us. His spirit came. But anyway, we locked it in. He also got the privilege of landing in this role. All of these veterans just like. I mean, come on.

[Kiki Palmer]

Absolutely nothing.

[Wood Harris]

I mean, literally, like, Wood and Karen became his, like, acting parents.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Acting parents.

[Kiki Palmer]

And then you as well.

[Wood Harris]

Yeah.

[Kiki Palmer]

You know, like, it's the perfect.

[Wood Harris]

What am I? The grandma? The auntie? What am I?

[Kiki Palmer]

You just. You're the hot auntie. Let me just tell you. Yes. Now, there's something else I want to talk to you about, because as I've gotten older, it's become something that I've appreciated so much about your work as a black woman watching Girlfriends. I told you, it's my show. That I my go to show. I go to sleep watching Girlfriends. You said in the Telegraph that, you know, your characters are layered and that the strong black woman is a lie. You've been exploring through all of your work. And I know what I feel that you mean by this. I don't wanna put words in your mouth. So I wanna just ask you, what did you mean by this?

[Wood Harris]

Well, even, like this idea of who we've had to be in order to survive America.

[Kiki Palmer]

Girl.

[Wood Harris]

And so. And we have bought into that idea as our identity, as our personality, as how we are. We don't even understand that some of the things that we are buying. Not human. And so I wanted to crack that open. I wanted to show us who we are and also sort of give some space for our vulnerability and our ability to exit left and to get off that ramp if we so choose. Girl.

[Kiki Palmer]

Because not only does it take down the. What we believe being strong means, but what we believe what being weak is. Yes.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes. I feel like your work does such a great job of, like, it's okay to love. Girl. You know what I mean? It's okay that it doesn't look perfect. It's okay that we don't have to play these roles of what a man is or what a woman is. You gotta be together.

[Wood Harris]

And it's okay if it doesn't last. But keep at it. We deserve love. It's okay that. That one didn't love.

[Kiki Palmer]

Come on, Joan. That's Joan coming through.

[Wood Harris]

Okay. That's Joan. I would like to get her there. I would like to get her there. I'd like to get her there. But it's okay that it doesn't work out. The fact that you want to go swing your bat at something miraculous. To know that somebody in the world is thinking about you as much as you're thinking about them supporting you as much as they want to support you and say you take a swing at it a sec. I think there was, like, this whole thing like, oh, people get married too much. I see it like my kid plays. My youngest baby plays baseball. Which is why baseball was all on the show as well.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes.

[Wood Harris]

But are we swinging our bat?

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes.

[Wood Harris]

Can we? It's okay. And sometimes we're gonna strike out. But get back up there and swing again at all the love in our life. Oh, my gosh. And I think that, you know, we also don't have to be. Also one thing. You know, this idea that you can't change your mind. Absolutely change your mind. You're gonna grow. Allow Yourself to grow, Allow yourself to change. Allow yourself to think about something else. Being loyal to. Who are you. Being loyal to yourself and your own heart's desire. Do you even know what that desire is? That's what I've been writing about.

[Kiki Palmer]

And I see and I'm telling you it resonates with me more and more and more as I get older and I go through my own life, you know, because you go through these changes and these realizations and it's so important to have these things to look at. Art is important to our lives. It tells us and it reflects us back at us. And I see so much of that. I watch Love is. I see it all through your work. Thank you. So I just have to tell you.

[Wood Harris]

Thank you for watching.

[Kiki Palmer]

No, seriously, it really means a lot, Mara. It does. I know I mentioned earlier Wood, you know that you're giving us cool dad vibes in Forever feels different from different characters. So when Mara brought it to you, were you kind of like, yeah, now I'm ready for this or had you been. Had you never even received the opportunity to play a role like this?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I mean, to me it just diversifies things, you know. So for me, you know, I try to have whatever is diversifies my career. So no, I hadn't done anything like this. And also Ismara Regina, Anthony from the Wire.

[Kiki Palmer]

Producer.

[Wood Harris]

Yeah, Anthony Himalay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Shiny Boots.

[Kiki Palmer]

I mean, he incredible.

[Wood Harris]

No, really backbone.

[Mara Brock Akil]

He directed as well.

[Wood Harris]

Randy did four episodes of. I mean, he put a lot.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So the people, you know, everybody. It's a book. It's a book. The book means that they're following Judy Blume.

[Wood Harris]

Judy Blume.

[Kiki Palmer]

We've got to talk about this book. Because I'll be honest, I was not aware of the book before this.

[Wood Harris]

Did you. Were you a Judy Blume reader?

[Kiki Palmer]

No.

[Wood Harris]

And that's okay. But I was. And I read so much of her work and I actually think, I say, I often say this, that you become a writer first as a reader. And I devoured her books. It was something about the way that she was so honest. Truth. I think even go back to the Wire, people respond to the truth. And forever. For me, I read in middle school, which people think is too young. But no, I wasn't ready to have sex. But I wanted a heads up about what my future could look like. I wanted a boyfriend. And I heard boyfriends wanted to have sex. And so. And maybe I did too. I just didn't understand, you know. And so we have to talk about it. We have to be honest. And kids Are curious. And she met that curiosity in her writings and being so honest. And I thought the show had to reflect that as well, that we give the kids the truth. And I actually think most young people make really great decisions if you give them the truth. And are they gonna get it from you? Are they gonna get it from out in them streets? And maybe there's something out there, but let them know. But imagine them getting the truth from where they're safest and where they're most loved and that you're open enough to talk about. Like, one of my. It was. I love the way they did the cucumber.

[Kiki Palmer]

Oh, yeah.

[Wood Harris]

It was so funny to me. But sometimes you just need to see.

[Kiki Palmer]

How to do it. Yes.

[Wood Harris]

You say, like, as a parent, how do you have that conversation? Or how do you do that? Or this? Or like, Erica's always like, be yourself. All these things sort of. What is the conversation between parent and child? But I feel like she was having that conversation in the book between what she laid out for us and the reader and what she mostly was protecting in the book. Like, the show is the children's future. Like, we want them to have a future and in the road to that, have a rite of passage that allows them to experience their first choice of love outside the familial love. And can they be safe in their exploration of their sex life, should they choose to have it or not? And so we want our chills happy, safe, and a future. And that's it. Oh, I mean, because that's universal.

[Kiki Palmer]

It is. Because I didn't read the book. I was curious of what elements you updated or even when, you know, we're thinking about, you know, spoiler alert. We think about Keisha's character. What was the meaning of the vehicle of the sex tape? You know, the choice to do that? To me, it was so brilliant. And it just kind of like. Yeah. Especially when I found out it was old. So I'm like, she really updated that concept for now. So why that?

[Wood Harris]

So the book was 50 years ago, and so I had to look at what young people were. What are the challenges for young people today. But the key thing I made in the book, the three biggest changes I made that made this show sort of uniquely its own within the essence of forever is changing the race of the families. Yeah, that's gonna be a different way the parents raise their children versus the white parents in the. But I also chose to make Justin the Katherine character and Keisha the Michael character. So Katherine in the book is the protagonist and at that time, she was considered.

[Kiki Palmer]

I.

[Wood Harris]

Would you say she's the most vulnerable, the most innocent, going out into the world thinking about, you know, her love life and her emotional self and her physical self. And I posit today, and even probably back then, too, I think black boys are the most vulnerable because sometimes before you can even talk about their emotional self, before they even know somebody even crushing on them, you have. Now you're six foot tall, you got some muscles. You have, you know, you have a certain anatomy that is fearful.

[Kiki Palmer]

Your innocence is lost also in the completely.

[Wood Harris]

You become enemy number one before you can even be seen as a full human being that has feelings of love. So you have to sometimes talk to your sons about rape before you can talk to them about love. And that is insane.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That is insane.

[Wood Harris]

But it's true.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes.

[Wood Harris]

To protect them, for them to have a future, sometimes you have to do that. So when we, Judy and I started to have that conversation, she was like, oh, yeah. That to me, is really, really challenging. And so when we made Justin Katherine, which was the most innocent in the book, and let Justin be that Keisha, Michael, in the book, had some sexual experience.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah.

[Wood Harris]

So wanted to introduce Keisha's character with this idea and also play on the stereotypes of black women and how we're perceived and all just play with the stereotype. Girl, you got me jump out of my seat.

[Kiki Palmer]

Because that's what I love so much about Keisha was that it seemed as if she was so sexually knowing it all just because this one moment happened where she was just trying to express herself and be a human experiencing. And then you realize, no, no, I'm a virgin too.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

I may have done some stuff, trying to see some stuff, but, like, I'm not some freak. Niek.

[Wood Harris]

Like, I don't know.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That's really well done too.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah, I really. Because males.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Males will not. They will cast the future on who that person is. They will. They will make that person something. To me, that was one of the best points because it showed so much reality and also making the Justin character. That character.

[Wood Harris]

Because you never see a young boy.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Young boys, who we always cool.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

And I'm tired of it.

[Wood Harris]

So you're so cool and you know everything.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And not only are we cool. Come on, I'm about to go get you something. What you need? Yeah, I got everything.

[Kiki Palmer]

I was tired of that.

[Mara Brock Akil]

This dude. Everyone is. Everyone is. And that's why this show is successful. There's been the repetition of all the black guys are dangerous cool. Sort of like, got all the guys who. They know how to get it. Whatever it is, they know how to get it.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Mike, Justin don't know how to get it.

[Kiki Palmer]

No. And I.

[Mara Brock Akil]

He's trying to figure it out.

[Wood Harris]

Justin can't even get out the house.

[Kiki Palmer]

It meant so much to me because I also know Justin. Like, Justin is my brother.

[Wood Harris]

There's so many Justin.

[Kiki Palmer]

He watched the anime and he likes ramen and sushi, and he just wants to hang out. And he likes you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And that's exactly their generation.

[Kiki Palmer]

Come hang out with me in my house. I mean, you want to go swim in my pool? Yeah. It's not all of always. What we saw in the past, that was just so, like you said, cool. And I know how to get. Baby, this is icy Palma. Yeah. Tell me why Tropical Smoothie Cafe has your girl feeling more blessed than Sierra's Prayer. With only the freshest smoothies bowls and made to order wraps, Tropical Smoothie Cafe is serving exactly what you need to turn your everyday into a mini vacation. Now, they did not come to play, y' all. The naturally sweetened Detox island green smoothie at Tropical Smoothie Cafe. Ooh. It has spinach, kale, mango, pineapple, banana, and fresh ginger. You name it. That Caribbean jerk chicken wrap with the kale and apple slaw upgrade. Ooh, yes. Honey, eating your fruits and veggies has never been this fun. It's serving exactly what I serve at every Met Gala. Pure excellence. So go on, order ahead, take the scenic route and earn rewards with the Tropical Smoothie Cafe app. Download it today or visit tropicalsmoothicafe.com to find a cafe or near you. You're on tropic time now at Tropical Smoothie Cafe. Baby, I have never, and I mean never, been more devastated than when I found out that some of y' all been sneaking around behind Domino's back just to get your stuffed crust fixed. Now, you know us Virgos are incredibly loyal, steadfast. Even cheating, especially on something as serious as Parmesan stuffed crust pizza ain't gonna fly in this house. I saw y' all slide into those other pizza spots. Drive thrus ordering that cheese filled crust like Domino's. And I wouldn't find out about your little rendezvous. But, sweetie, the healing starts today because Domino's just dropped their own stuffed crust. And now y' all got no excuse to keep stepping out on them like this. It's time to put those pizza cheating ways to rest. Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust is serving pure decadence with the that buttery Handmade dough wrapped around a cascading stream of 100% melty goodness. These are the cheese pulls of your dreams. It's very much a goofy movie level of ooey, gooey, cheesy deliciousness. And of course, your girl can't forget about that signature garlic seasoning and parmesan sprinkle dance on top of that perfectly baked crust, making every single taste taste like it was blessed by the pizza gods themselves. Can think about it now. I'm already imagining the parm stuffed pie I've been plotting on. Next time I'm placing my order, you best believe I'm having mushrooms, grilled onions, and some extra peppers just to, you know, keep the vegetables on top. Now, this is the kind of commitment I'm talking about. No more pizza cheating needed when Domino's is bringing this level of excellence to the table. Order Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust pizza on the Domino's app and use code kiki to get any three topping parmesan stuffed crust pizza for 11.99. Price is higher for some locations. You must ask for this limited time offer. Prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary. Delivery orders subject to local stores. Delivery charge. Holla at your girl. Michael's here to talk with us, too. What?

[Mara Brock Akil]

What do you mean?

[Kiki Palmer]

I didn't know. So surprise, guys.

[Wood Harris]

Surprise, guys.

[Kiki Palmer]

Surprise, guys. Michael Cooper Jr. Is here to join the conversation with us. He's on here to have him on the video. Yeah.

[Wood Harris]

No way.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To get in the conversation where daddy is.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You ain't funny, man.

[Kiki Palmer]

Man. We were just getting into the heatedness, Michael, of Justin and how we needed to see this character on screen. I have to tell you, I already told you. With Golden Sunshine, who did makeup for your show. She's doing makeup on my show right now.

[Wood Harris]

I love Golden.

[Kiki Palmer]

She connected me to say hey to Michael. Cause she know I love the show. But I want to tell you, congratulations. You did such a fabulous job. Look at him.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thanks, man.

[Kiki Palmer]

Look at him.

[Wood Harris]

Appreciate it.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I love this dude.

[Kiki Palmer]

I mean, he did incredible. And us getting into talking about this character, we kind of just talking about how we finally get an opportunity to see a lot of the young black boys that we know in our lives where it's showing that other side of the vulnerability, the emotions, you know, how they feel truly, without just always having to be tough and cool. But I'm curious for you, as a young black man, were there apprehensions or concerns you had coming in playing a character that has moments where he's in the Bed. And he seems depressed about this love that guys could consider weak.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

Oh, absolutely. I think even initially reading the script, I got in my head and I was like, my guys are gonna make fun of me for this. I mean, he's. He's such an emotional guy, and he's so open and so vulnerable.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

But there was something very specific about Morris writing. Because, you know, as actors, you always got to take it back to the writing. And there was one thing that really resonated with me. He had one foot in confidence and the other foot in insecurity. And something so palpable that I think that we can all relate to.

[Kiki Palmer]

That's right.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

And it was easy for me to connect. And then I just started to think about conversations, you know, that I had with my friends about, you know, their ex girlfriends or when they broke up with. And I would, like, you know, be on the phone with my guys, and they'd be in shambles. You know what I mean? And so it was important for me to kind of take this and, you know, express it the best way I could.

[Kiki Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. I think you did a wonderful job. And it's funny to hear that about your friends, because I had a couple of guys I would talk about to forever about. And they'd be like, I can't believe, you know, Justin. I said, that's you. While you talking about Justin, you look just like that. So stop playing. It's important for us to see ourselves. I mean, Eric, you know, Wood, the father character, he's protective, but he's also so present. What did you want to reflect, you know, in working with Michael about black fathers who are raising whole and emotionally aware children, Sons specifically.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That's a great question. I think, overall, what we're doing with this show and with this culture that we all belong to right here, this motley crew of four, at least we all belong to this black culture.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes. Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I think forever sort of like resets the dial a little bit about our story. It's that deep. And the reason why. Reason why, in my opinion, is because of. Well, it's because of Mar. I mean, you know, her head's gonna. I don't know if her head gonna be able to fit in this building by the time we leave. But I just gotta. We gotta.

[Wood Harris]

My hair is cute. Shout out to you. See?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Look at the hair.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

But.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Nah. Seriously, though, it's taking our story while the story's being taken away. So. Meaning this, as time is now, this present time, and the story's not about Race, how ironic it is, is not a racial story. You don't even think about race watching it. No one's gonna think race necessarily. It's a love story. And that is what is needed to recalibrate, I feel like our narrative. Because at the moment we have a narrative that's a little. It's somewhat rational, you know, And I hate to say that, but the almighty black culture is associated with that too much, in my opinion. You know, this obliterates that. This resets the conversation so that we can be contributors, you know, every culture has.

[Kiki Palmer]

And be the narrators of our stories. Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I mean, as they change, you can't. It's not even gonna be in school. You won't even find out about us in schools.

[Kiki Palmer]

And I think it's important that you say that because this goes all the way back to. Again, it is on the back of. I don't wanna say on the back, but it is spearheaded by people like you, Mara, because, I mean, you were the first black woman showrunner when you did, you know, girlfriends. And when you've done the things you've done, you have been in the lead in the seat that it's taken years for people to get to. To be able to tell the stories from an honest place. And so I think.

[Wood Harris]

And I wanna say that I'm not the first black showrunner. I'm one of the first. I guess I'm one of the few back in the day. And I think because of the. Of that I came from people, like I said, who were holding it down. Sarah Finney Johnson was there, of course, Winnie Hervey were there. I mean, we were there. But what I'm thankful for, and I understood the moment to land this story on Netflix at this time. It's like. It's funny. The playoffs are on. It feels like the playoffs. It feels like you're in the championship game. And would I agree with you, and I didn't add the words that you used. It does feel like a reset because it's like, hey, this is what we're about. This is what it really is. And now I want to speak to what it Craftsmanship, the investment in ourselves and needing society. Sometimes it starts with our parents to invest in people, to invest in the talent. We need to invest in ourselves so that we can tell our story so beautifully and that we understand how to craft that narrative. How do we execute it on that level. I'm really an advocate right now more and more about the need for great writing. Great writing will bring out great acting. Yes, and then all of the other. All of the other departments, we have a beautiful art form. It takes a village to make these shows. And in doing so, we can. And that we're all storytellers in it. And all of those layers are the beautiful patina that makes it feel so resonant and allows us to reset the tone and that people can see themselves. Because now that it's also out there, the audience is now telling us it's their show. And they're gonna tell you what it means to them. They're gonna dissect it, and they're gonna analyze it. And more importantly, they're gonna see themselves. And to your point, they were instrumental in showing up. So I wanna thank them for showing up. And we need more people to show up because I think the story of blackness, which has set. You know, we've heard this term before. They like our culture, but they don't like us, that our culture has been used to benefit other people. And I want our culture to benefit ourselves. And so I want our story to go as wide as it can, because through the lens of blackness, I think there's a lot of healing for everybody because we know what suffering is. And yet in that suffering, we know joy. We know joy. I think there was another. It's interesting, another conversation that's been happening around the show is that people were expecting so much trauma to happen, and it was crafted to be like, yes, we are swimming in a world that we know where the potholes are. But what we are thinking and endeavoring to do every day is for that joy.

[Kiki Palmer]

That's right.

[Wood Harris]

That's it.

[Kiki Palmer]

That's right. And just to piggyback on what both of you are saying, when it comes to our culture and our stories being told, you know, black isn't a monolith. Everybody's story is valid, but we just have had an over end day of the other stuff. Yes, I agree. That's really the thing. And so when we get. We need more balance. I do want to see more nuance. I want to see different types of us. And that's. That's the thing.

[Wood Harris]

And in every genre.

[Kiki Palmer]

In every genre, yes, we could be horror. You know what I mean?

[Wood Harris]

Your body of work, too. Kiki, come on. I mean, I mean, I think we're sitting here and I mean. I mean, Kiki, you have been holding it down. Such a young.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And you.

[Wood Harris]

Exactly.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You actually. A baby. Okay, You're a baby. We've been interviewed by a baby. A mogul baby.

[Kiki Palmer]

Go get the water.

[Wood Harris]

But you're testament to your own craft. You want. It's your name on there and you want to be great. Michael wants to be great. Wood is like, we're all wanting to be great. And so that takes that craftsmanship and investment in ourselves.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But, Mara, again, I gotta say this.

[Wood Harris]

Okay, okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The grandness of your vision and everything, putting together your teams to make this happen, it is a synergy of it all. Yeah. 12 years ago, me being a coach could do that, and everything had to happen. That's why I say it's a perfect storm for this to land as it has. But again, it's so important that this is normalized. That, you know, wonderful Mike, who is not a, you know, not that cool, kind of like rapper, you know, King Von President energy, you know, rest of the RP Chi town. I get it. But you know what I'm saying.

[Kiki Palmer]

I know what you mean.

[Mara Brock Akil]

This is not that. This is what we need to see more of because we've seen an abundance, like you said, an over index of the other stuff, all the cool people.

[Wood Harris]

I think we need to see it because it's true.

[Kiki Palmer]

It is.

[Wood Harris]

It's more. Black boys are more like Justin than the other way. Than the other way.

[Kiki Palmer]

I mean, what parts of yourself. Cause this happens to me, you know, as an actor, you know, you're talking with Mara. You put yourself in your work or you see yourself in your work, or you heal yourself through your work. In playing Justin, what did you discover about yourself maybe at that age or even now? I mean, have you been in love? What's t. Boo.

[Wood Harris]

The audience is listening.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

I have been in love. I have been in love. But I think playing Justin because it. And it's funny. I would even talk to Mara and Anthony on set and be like, does he really have to cry? Like this scene?

[Kiki Palmer]

Does he have to cry? And mar.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

Be like, yeah, yeah, he needs to cry a little bit. And so, like, it kind of healed me in a sense of, like, being able to be vulnerable. And it healed me from past relationships that I got to pull from and use, you know, and so. But I think again, like, because Mara knows her story so well and it's so specific, I think anybody who's watching the show can connect with. With whether you're a Keisha or Justin or you're a little bit of everybody. I just.

[Kiki Palmer]

It.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

It's. She has like this magic touch with creating these fully dimensional characters that I find myself because even reading the script, I was like, oh, I'm more like Keisha. Like, I knew my objective I was like, I want to be an actor. And Kesha knows. She wants to go to Howard. She knows where she wants to go. And it took me back a little bit, because I think I even had a bit of prejudice reading Justin because I was like, he's a little lost. Like, he's really lost. But he was lost in a way that was kind of. That I had. I had seen in a reflection of my friends that I think I was a bit harsh in a season when they would express to me, you know, things that they were going through or trials. And it gave me new perspective. And I think that's great art when, you know, it shifts perspective. And Mara does it in this way that, you know, when you're actually shooting and filming, you're so focused on the work, but then when you watch the piece come together, you're like, yo.

[Kiki Palmer]

And you did. She did such a great job in terms of telling us the why, you know, because my question was gonna be, were there any moments where Justin and Kesha chose their relationship over their family that made you want to scream at them? But ultimately, what I want to get to is it was the moment where he didn't want to go to Northwestern, and he wasn't sure what he wanted. And I thought it was just about Keisha. But through that love, we found ourselves at the real crux, where he said, I can't be at another pwi where I can't be me.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

And I'm like, yeah. Like, it's more than that. So when. When. When Keisha's dad says, like, that boy is lost, he own. He's using you as his crush, I'm like, well, where is this going? I'm like, wow. He's using that as the distraction as he holds on to. To what he really wants to say, which is that I've had a hard time trying to measure up in a world that systemically happens, has already so much against me. I already feel like I'm behind the eight ball and there's no blueprint. I don't know where I'm gonna go, but I can't do this again. And that really resonated with me, because boy or girl, but especially in this particular time, and when I'm looking at the black men that I know that can't figure out how to live in the system of the structure, and they just don't know how to feel valid in that, it's like, yeah, how do I make myself?

[Wood Harris]

You watch the show Kiki. You watch the show Kiki.

[Kiki Palmer]

I Am like, it really touched me.

[Wood Harris]

I really. I really love this.

[Kiki Palmer]

I really love this.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

When I was on FaceTime with Keke, she was in her trailer watching. Were you on episode three?

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes. And I was so mad because they were knocking on my door. They were like, hey. And I was like, what the hell they want? I'm watching the show. And it was Michael. And I'm like, hey. But seriously, I wanted to.

[Wood Harris]

You know, it's interesting. We had a lot of conversations, Netflix and I. Because sometimes when you tell these stories, oftentimes, like, what does the character want? And I'm like, it's okay that the main character cannot know. Most television and movies, most times, you know what the character wants, and then are they gonna get it or not? That's really the plot. But I think the majority. There's a lot of people who are really great people that deserve the main stage to be the main character, as the kids say, and not be the witness. They called it the non person npc.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Non playable character.

[Wood Harris]

Yeah. Most times it's a non playable character. And then why not shine a light on people who haven't? Their humanity is needed. And love was the thing that woke them up. Oh, my God. And that is what I wanted to say.

[Kiki Palmer]

And I kept thinking to myself, y' all ain't had to break up to get there.

[Wood Harris]

Sometimes you do.

[Kiki Palmer]

Sometimes I'm like, God damn. Get back together. It's only 2018. We got about four. We got more years for this story. I gotta let you go, Michael. And I gotta let you guys go soon. But I just wanna let you know, I really, really loved your performance. You were just remarkable. And I can't wait for season two, where you and Keisha get married.

[Wood Harris]

Hey, Mike.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Mike. You look like you gained a couple pounds. Yeah.

[Kiki Palmer]

He in the gym? I am.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

I told you I'm up for that wrestling part. So I've been in the gym.

[Kiki Palmer]

Okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So you put on some weight.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

I had to.

[Wood Harris]

Well, he's gonna have to lose it.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Vegan.

[Kiki Palmer]

I'll see you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Bye.

[Wood Harris]

Bye. Bye, Michael.

[Michael Cooper Jr.]

Bye.

[Kiki Palmer]

Bye, guys. I could keep talking to you more and more and more and more. I know. I gotta get ready to go. And I'm gonna talk to Karen as well soon, so I'm very excited. You know, obviously plays Don, so I'm excited to get into even more that I didn't get to touch on today with you guys. But as you can see, I absolutely love this show. Thank you. It is so amazing. It brought me back to so many things. It healed me in so many ways and my perspective and reframing what my ideas on love have been. And I cannot wait to see this next season. And what more is going to teach me now before I go, I have to play a game with you guys. I play a game with all my guests. Okay. And this one is really fun. We love an on theme game. This one's about forever, and it's called Forever or never. Okay, so I'm gonna give you guys.

[Wood Harris]

We're running.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'll be back.

[Wood Harris]

We gotta use the bathroom.

[Kiki Palmer]

So I'm gonna give you guys a couple of, like, situations, and I'm gonna give you guys a paddle. One side says forever. One side says never. If you think it's still forever, then you're gonna hold up forever. And if you think it's like never, then you're gonna hold up never. Sounds good.

[Wood Harris]

Oh, kinda. Kinda.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes.

[Wood Harris]

No, let's play. Let's play.

[Kiki Palmer]

Let's have some fun. I'm excited.

[Wood Harris]

Let's go into this adventure.

[Mara Brock Akil]

One side is.

[Kiki Palmer]

Okay, so forever is like we stand together. Never is like, yo, we breaking.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay.

[Kiki Palmer]

Okay. Kesha texts back K after a whole paragraph from Justin. Forever or never. I'm saying forever.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

You know, it's not a big deal.

[Wood Harris]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kiki Palmer]

What does that mean? It's not always, you know, just K. You know, she had to process.

[Wood Harris]

K was a lot. Sometimes just to even text anything back is commitment.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes. I mean, I loved also how you guys did the texting in the show, which is very hard right now. Right. Because everybody does it. It's like, how do we make ours? Seeing the dot, dot, dot, the positive, the writing, and then I'm taking it away.

[Wood Harris]

I want to give Regina a big shout out for that. She really worked. She's like, how are we going to make this? You know, being the setting the tone. She really dug into that and flipped it over, looked at it. We really. We talked about it a lot. And that's what. And we. That was. And then a collective effort of getting.

[Kiki Palmer]

It there done so well, because it's hard to look at that, but y' all made it right. Okay, now I'm going to a throwback. Moesha and Q get engaged.

[Wood Harris]

Oh, gosh. You went back.

[Kiki Palmer]

But he needs to sell the ring. Forever or never. Dang. I was gonna say forever. Maybe he needed the cash.

[Wood Harris]

You know, I think.

[Kiki Palmer]

I think it's hard in this economy. Any of y' all.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm low key cheating. I can see what she gonna do. I said, I'm sitting next to Mara in Class.

[Wood Harris]

So I think it's okay to understand what the commitment of marriage is and go on and, I don't know, figure those things out. And it's okay to figure those things out so that you are building this relationship from a very. As solid a foundation as one can have.

[Kiki Palmer]

Well, I'm taking your advice. Cause you the married one, so I need to be better.

[Wood Harris]

Okay.

[Kiki Palmer]

Your teenage son and his girlfriend want to go on a solo couples trip forever. Or.

[Wood Harris]

Wait, wait, wait. Oh, what? Oh, teenage solo. No, no, Never.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah, that's never. Are we nuts? Who the hell is doing that? That's not happening. I did love on the show when they went to Martha's Vineyard, and that little fast tail girl trying to get with Justin. I liked her character, though. But I was like, now what you doing? She told me something. We should just have sex, but stay away from Keisha's man.

[Wood Harris]

But you know what? Was it that. But that. What I love is that that's a. That was a marker of the times that young women are saying, hey, listen, I have. She was sex positive. She was communicative. It was consensual. It was a conversation.

[Kiki Palmer]

No shame is what I enjoy.

[Wood Harris]

No shame. And she chose a good partner.

[Kiki Palmer]

I mean, he was impeccable. If it was gonna be anybody, it need to be Justin. That's a nice young man.

[Wood Harris]

Yes. I love that. Shannon's smart.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yes, she was.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And Mara directed that. I don't know if that's been spoken.

[Wood Harris]

I did episode five.

[Kiki Palmer]

That was such a good episode. And I love.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We went to Martha's Vineyard, and it was definitely gorgeous. It was gorgeous. Off season, though.

[Wood Harris]

It was cold.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It was cold. We worked hard.

[Wood Harris]

We worked hard to make it look hot in the summertime.

[Kiki Palmer]

Absolutely loved the fact that she tried hard. You know, again, I think it's one of those other things with young women that it's this fear of, like, going for what you want or saying, hey, I want you back, or I want this. And I love seeing Lovey's character, Keisha, do that in that episode. Cause it's just like. Yeah, like, she want a man back.

[Wood Harris]

She want a man back. She made a big mistake.

[Kiki Palmer]

She made a big mistake. I was so tired of that boy. Oh, my gosh. I love when Zosia, obviously, who played Keyshia Mama, when she was. She was like, you think I want you to be miserable?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Isn't she awesome?

[Kiki Palmer]

I love that she's awesome.

[Wood Harris]

She killed it. Killed it.

[Kiki Palmer]

Okay, just a couple more. Your high school boyfriend dumps you at prom, but texts you to get back together the next day. It was. Yeah. That was tough to watch.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

That was tough to watch.

[Wood Harris]

That was tough to watch. But, you know, young people are dealing with a lot, and I think that that's one of the things I loved about Judy's book, is that. And also what we wanted to show, if you're paying attention, these issues are big for them, and they are also happening, and what they might feel like. You know what I'm saying? And so prom is it. And it feels like, you know, I'm not saying it's marriage, but it kind of feels that way.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah. Even when you think about Keisha being, like, every moment, it was like, my mom's gonna kill me. You know, And I'm watching it as a grown person. I'm like, damn. It really was like that. It's like, you'll be fine. But, like, when you're a teenager, everything is so. Like, wearing fake Nikes is, like, enough to get you killed.

[Wood Harris]

Right, right. And feeling her mom think about this now, once the story goes along, that would be the worst thing for Keisha to lose her mother's respect. And I think that's losing everything. And that's losing everything. She knows what her mother did, and she thinks one mistake could lose her mother's respect. She sees how hard her mother's working, and I don't want to lose her respect. And you're just trying to hide it. And also, it is a commentary, too, that sometimes as parenting, we are a communication skill. We snap and then we fall, that we've got to work on that.

[Kiki Palmer]

And putting so much on our kids. That's not how my baby would be. And it's like, baby, I was in the back of the car doing the unthinkable. It's definitely your baby. You know what I mean? It's like that the next thing you know, your kid's not telling you because you put them on. On this pedestal. So it's also awesome to see that, because, you know, I think it's hard as a single parent where you're like, you're the. I'm putting everything into you. And it's like, but what if. What if I can't measure up to that?

[Wood Harris]

Yes, that. And also, if you look at it, there's out of love. There's a subtle message happening to Keisha, like a lot of young girls, about the baller.

[Kiki Palmer]

Yeah.

[Wood Harris]

Living that courtside life. And this is what. This is how you get that.

[Kiki Palmer]

This is validation.

[Wood Harris]

You know what I'm saying? And so we still have a lot to work through about what are good choices for young women. I think one of my favorite things that just in sort of the idea of how to choose well, I guess, is that Keisha realized, oh, I just love that he was so honest that I know how he feels about me, unlike the other guy I never knew. So that guy keeps you on a. Keeps you acting all doing the most so that you can get his attention. And so I hope that those messages also came through. And that's not just for teenagers. That's for grown people.

[Kiki Palmer]

They did. And I love that a young man that I want to get to this last question, but I love that Justin said, you know, because that's why I remember growing. Growing up for me, I was always really apprehensive in my young adult life. Letting a guy pay dinner for me.

[Wood Harris]

Yes.

[Kiki Palmer]

You know, letting him take me somewhere. I did that, too, because I didn't want it to mean I had to do something.

[Wood Harris]

I did the same thing, but I also missed out on getting my dinner paid for.

[Kiki Palmer]

God damn. Can somebody pay for something?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I spent 100,000 on my own song.

[Wood Harris]

But we're not allowing for that to show up in our lives.

[Kiki Palmer]

No, it's so true. But anyway, this is the last one, and I swear I'm gonna go.

[Wood Harris]

Ooh, Keke, we could talk forever.

[Kiki Palmer]

Justin and Keisha in season two.

[Wood Harris]

Ah, forever. Yeah.

[Kiki Palmer]

Thank you both so much for coming to the show. Literally, I could talk to you for hours. It's such an honor to be with both of you. I mean, so much respect to all the work you've done, and I can't wait for season two forever. You know, I could be somebody's sister.

[Wood Harris]

Okay.

[Kiki Palmer]

How could you grow?

[Wood Harris]

Did you hear her?

[Mara Brock Akil]

There you go.

[Wood Harris]

Did you hear her? All right, maybe I'm your sister.

[Mara Brock Akil]

There you go.

[Kiki Palmer]

That's awesome.

[Wood Harris]

Look, Cassidy, let me call Kim Coleman. Lock that in. Get your in the two seconds she's available.

[Kiki Palmer]

I'm with you whenever you need me. Thank you, guys again. If you haven't watched forever yet, what are you doing? Go get your heart broken and healed. But seriously, I loved that today wasn't just a conversation about a show, but a conversation about life. Being young, vulnerable, black, and loving and being loved with the ability to be all those things at once. And if you're navigating that in between space, between who you were and who you're becoming, give yourself permission to be a little messy in that process, whether it's romantic, familiar, or the one we have to build with ourselves. The gag is the love is always worth exploring. In the meantime, I'm sad for season two and can't wait for more real talk because, baby, this is Kiki Palmer.