← Baby, this is Keke Palmer
Baby, this is Keke Palmer
Main Character Energy with Issa Rae, Amy Poehler, Tyler Perry & More
01:19:50
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- [00:00]
Keke Palmer
This episode is sponsored by Airbnb, y'all. When spring hits and nature starts calling my name, you know I am headed straight to Airbnb to find the most loved homes to scratch my outdoor z itch. Now let's get into it, baby. No matter what we doing in the car, just chilling, pop on Amazon music, sit back and listen. Life, love, sex, science, covering it all, especially the bad. Cause money always evolved. No matter what it is, we gonna make it make sense. Nothing else to do but kick it with the homies and kids to grab you a drink and a snack you enjoy. Get into the vibe that only wants you know it's your girl. This is Kiki, baby. This is Kiki Palma. Yeah. You know my next guest from her iconic, groundbreaking HBO series, Insecure. Since then, she's continued to do amazing things like American Fiction Barbie, has endless Emmy, Golden Globe nominations, also has an amazing restaurant, Somerville, that I need to get me a seat to go eat at. And of course, her wine company, via Rae. You know it's my girl, Issa Rae. Hey, boo.
- [01:12]
Issa Rae
Hey, what's up, Keke?
- [01:15]
Keke Palmer
You know, everything is good. I'm living a good life because I've gotten to see you back to back days because we're doing all this press for our new movie, One of Them Days. How are you feeling?
- [01:24]
Issa Rae
One of Them Days. I'm so excited that we got here. I was telling you yesterday, like, this has been a long journey and props to you because you've been here since the beginning and so much has happened since then for you. Like, you are already doing big things, but I feel like your star has just risen on a massive scale and you still stayed down, you still stay committed to making this. So I'm grateful and happy.
- [01:48]
Keke Palmer
I mean, I've been watching you not only in front of the camera, but I get to see a close up view of you as a producer. I feel like it's probably the same people that you've been working with since the beginning, would you say?
- [01:58]
Issa Rae
For the most part, yeah. Some people I found along the way, but like some of the talent and stuff, like Sarita, who wrote the movie. We've been knowing each other since before Insecure. And Lawrence I met along the way, but he worked with me on rap. So it's just you get the people you know and then you find new people who are just like, oh, you're so good. Like, join a clique. Let's make something together.
- [02:19]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. I feel like in our generation there's this big meta art thing that I feel Like, I've been, like, looking at. And what I mean by that is, I don't know if it's because of reality TV or if it's just because of social media, but we always feel like our life is directly reflecting the art. And I know you speak a lot about how you use your own personal, personal stories, a part of Insecure, whether they were your stories or friends or what was around you. And so I'm curious in the process of that, how you made sure to not overexpose yourself or feel like you're being overexposed in terms of creating this character that is Issa Dee and still maintaining to be Issa Rae.
- [02:59]
Issa Rae
What a good question. And I. I wonder the same for you. Like, I. I navigated that, and, you know, we went through this era where it was just like, people want more of you. They want more of your life. They want it like, they want to feel in touch and in tune with you. And part of me was just like, ugh, no. Do they really? Do they, like, do I want that? Am I ready for that? And especially, I think I saw early on with Insecure in those seasons, you know, spoiler alert. My character cheats on her man. And, like, the hate that I got as myself, I was just like, dang, this is. People are having trouble distinguishing me, like, getting called a cheater on the streets. I'm like, it's a story, please. And I was taking that a little bit personally. But, like, that. That was interesting to me, where I was like, oh, I have to be super intentional about, like, what I share about myself. I like. I like that people are upset with this character. There's a visceral reaction, but I don't want people to conflate me with what they see and overly think they know me, because everybody thinks you're their best friend in so many ways. And I know that that has to be like, you have to create those boundaries. And it's a high compliment in some ways. But, yeah, it's rough.
- [04:24]
Keke Palmer
I asked that question because I do feel like we're both similar. Maybe it's the earth sign energy, but it's like, I do put myself in my work because I want to explore these convers. It's not because I'm ashamed or I have, you know, I want to be seemed as perfect, but it's also because I feel like art is the best place to do that. I don't feel like it's appropriate for me to be like, here's all my business, but for me to alchemize it. You know, that would be so weird if I just came up to you and be like, so let me tell you what I did last night. That would be so weird. I don't want to waste your time, but if I want to take something that I've experienced in my life and have it to be of service to you, then I will represent it in my work. And then I do try to be as private as I can, you know, about my personal life again, not because I'm trying to be secretive, but because I feel like I gotta do that to protect the people in my life, to make sure I have something for myself, and to make sure that I'm using my platform wisely. I don't want to give you bullshit. I don't want to give you bitter ass tea, you know?
- [05:17]
Issa Rae
Truly, Truly. And you touched on it, too. Like, it is therapeutic. Like, I wasn't in real therapy till, like, last year. And there's so. Something so great about being able to work that out. Like, whether you're in the writer's room or on screen or just doing it with yourself, like, there's just. It really is just. It's fulfilling in that way to kind of examine yourself and to be a bit more self aware. So in that way, like, the art is the purest form, and that separation is also like, oh, I got it out, and now it's out of me in a way, and now it's for you. Like, that part of the story is for you.
- [05:55]
Keke Palmer
And again, the brilliance of the character Issa D. Is that she was also living that in her own universe where she's figuring out how her personal life affects her business and how her security and who she is as a person in her everyday life can make her expand in her world and her career and help her to have clarity and define who she wants to be. And so I want to know, for you, graduating from Awkward Black Girl Insecure, what that world was for you. What is that end game? In the same way that we figured out what it was for Issa Dee, what is it for Issa Rae that this next chapter for you has been about?
- [06:32]
Issa Rae
This. Jesus Christ.
- [06:35]
Amy Poehler
I know.
- [06:36]
Keke Palmer
It's been about so much.
- [06:38]
Ike Palmer
Yeah.
- [06:38]
Issa Rae
And it's about honing. And honestly, like, that's. That's what I've been trying to, like, lock in on what that is, specifically, because it extends beyond the entertainment industry to me. And I have found that community is really important to me and building, and that can be done via storytelling really effectively in terms of using a Platform to shine a light on things that I care about that are issues, but it's also about doing the work. And I'm like, what's my version of doing the work? I don't want to be in politics, but I can affect politics. I can create or collaborate in programs. But the next chapter of my life, I think, will be more philanthropic in a way that isn't like, I'm not Mother Teresa and it's. But I'm like, I care and I want to make sure that I'm not just doing things that are useless in the long run. It is about building legacy, baby.
- [07:36]
Keke Palmer
This is Ike Palmer. Yeah. I feel like me growing up in my experience of going on Tyler Perry sets and seeing how everybody there is like community vibes. I felt a similar thing with you from even down to the black owned water bottles that we were using. And I don't know that people understand, like, that's, that's a real commitment, you know. So, like, for you, like, was that something that you say to the people on your team and you have. And they make sure that, hey, this is important to Issa. We have to make sure that we have something black owned, something, you know, like, how did you start making that? Because, you know, it's not something that you. We can do on our owns. I think people just think, oh, just do it and just say it. But you do have to have people help carry that out. So how did you make sure that was something that was a part of your brand and your production company?
- [08:26]
Issa Rae
I'm so glad you said that because it's not. It is. It's something that people have to be like minded to also be able to carry that out. So it starts with conversations of like, what can we do and how can we help? And if I'm not working with a like minded, you know, costume designer in Iona James and Shiona Turini, like, who are like, well, we're gonna get black designers. You know, that's our part. Or that's right in the props department, them seeing the ethos and being, okay, well, I found this great black owned wine company and we, we got this and, and like that. That's those conversations happening. And once people see other people are doing it, then it's such an easy, it's such an easy thing to do. It really, it's not that hard. And I think once people realize that and that their mission aligned already, then it becomes easier. And that's kind of what I look for in collaborators is just that general awareness. People who, who are mission driven and it's disappointing when they're not. But it's like, then I don't need to, to work with you.
- [09:22]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. I think that's also something that is good leadership is the fact that you can empower other people to have leadership and that their voices matter. And you've spoken a lot about also having, you know, connecting to your peers, connecting to your community and your network of like minded people. So I think that just echoes that same thing. I'm curious of what the hardest part about being a leader has been or that you've learned in, you know, having to be the leader of something that could be helpful to other people that are entrepreneurs.
- [09:52]
Issa Rae
I think general balance of management, you know, leadership is its own job. And when it comes to like being a creator, it comes to having multiple businesses like your, your focus is shifted. And I think it's really important if you're going to be an entrepreneur to put resources in reading and learning how to be the best leader you can be and if not to devote resources to the person that you want to run your stuff. I think that that's something that I've had to learn along the way is just like as hands on as I am and as controlling as I am, I need help and I need, I can't. There's certain, there's certain skill sets that I'm just not equipped for yet because I don't have the time to be the best and I want to be the best, you know, so that's been a learning curve and also just nipping things in the bud when they happen. Sometimes you could see something a mile away and just be like, ah, I'll get to that later. Like, or maybe they'll figure it out on their own. Like, they'll, they'll handle that. That'll be handled. And then if I had just addressed it in the moment when I saw it, then I would have saved myself conflict or time or whatever it is. And I've gotten a bit better about being like, let me nip this in the bud right now.
- [11:16]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm the same way because sometimes I think being a leader, especially if you're somebody that's like not trying to always be like, I'm the boss of this motherfucker, then, then you can find yourself like, oh, wait a minute. People actually want me to be like, I'm the boss of this and set some stuff straight. Because you're, yeah, you're thinking about like, I don't know, like I'm Trying to make sure I'm supporting everybody's individuality. But then it does, you know, as a leader, it is kind of hard. You're a chill person. To be like, no, I'm the person that's got to set up and be like. But then knowing when the time to do that is right and when not, it's very, it's definitely a thing, you know.
- [11:52]
Issa Rae
Yeah. And I don't want to be reductive, but it is like how, how they say that, like, kids need discipline and obviously everybody's adults here. But we crave discipline, we crave order, we crave, like knowing a direction. And that's why you have to be kind of, you have to be confident in putting your foot down in certain instances.
- [12:13]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, I'm definitely learning that myself. So I want to ask you because I think you do a great job at. Obviously, you're so huge in terms of representation, not just for women, but friendships, for millennials, for black peoples. The list goes on. But that's also a lot of pressure. So I'm curious of how you manage your personal perspective and then just what people expect to hear or see about us. Like, how much when do you have to let go of over being conscious about what you're representing?
- [12:44]
Issa Rae
I don't think about it at all, honestly, unless. Until it's coming out. Until. Yeah, like, oh, like this is, this is how people are viewing it. But when I'm making something, it really is just like what I want to see. I don't think I'm carrying anything on my back. Like, I just want to make the best possible. And it also comes just innate. It's inherent for me to like, think about the audience, that is that I'm thinking about whether that's, you know, my, my friends and family who are mostly black, like, that's, that's what I think about. And then it gets wider from there, but I don't, I feel like I would get tired if I was constantly thinking like, oh, they want so much for guys.
- [13:31]
Keke Palmer
I am so excited for my guest for this episode because I know she is going to make me think and I know for sure she'll make me laugh without even trying. She's an actress, a producer, a comedian, an author, and a Golden Globe award winner. The list goes on. You know her from snl and of course you know her from her years long role as Leslie Knope on Parks and Recreation, but also she's a cool mom. Amy Poehler, thank you so much for being here, Amy.
- [13:57]
Tyler Perry
Yes, Kiki, thank you so much for having me. I love you. I love talking to you today.
- [14:04]
Keke Palmer
I'm talking about Personas, you know, personalities and traits that we either lean into or have to lean out of depending on the different roles we're playing in our lives. The truth is everybody, not, not just actors, everybody plays a million different roles. But as an entertainer, you know, when you become Leslie or, you know, when you become, you know, Amy, or when you're a new character in a sketch. So do you feel like that has in some ways made it easier to accept the identity shifting and that maybe that's the reality of life, or do you think it's made you want to kind of hanker down more and try to define yourself at different stages?
- [14:41]
Tyler Perry
Well, I think one of the best gifts about acting for me is that it does help me understand other people. I'm always trying to relate, stay relational. That's my work. I know, because me, I can. We've talked about this, Kiki. But I like to, you know, when there's a problem, I like to go to my spaceship. Like, yeah, I like to go into my capsule, close the door. I'm using air quotes. Fix my problem, and then go back out and be like, good news, everybody. I fixed it. And everyone's like, could we have participated in this? Do you want to talk to us during it? So I like to self regulate. So my work is to always try to co regulate, like to try to have feelings in real time with other people rather than just myself. So acting helps a lot because it makes me empathetic. I can feel like playing Leslie. I got to feel a lot of big feelings in real time with other people. And I've said this before, but doing comedy, I think lengthens your life. I think it actually adds years to your life. If you can laugh in real time with people that you love, I think you've added years to your life. So it's like the opposite of smoking. So if that did feel, I was able to have real feelings in real time with people that I loved. So acting helps me get there because I can't always get there on my own. I have work to do in that space to do that. But you bring up something really interesting, which is, I think that this idea of who are you to different people is confusing because you want to find your authentic self. You want to find out who is you at the end of the day, what is that self voice? But we do have a lot of parts. We are all of the things. So, yes, who I am to someone, I'M working with professionally is different than some, you know, my oldest friend is different than, you know, when I'm talking to my teenage sons. Like, you gotta figure out. It's just like the biggest riddle in life is to keep yourself preserved and still realize it's okay to switch. I mean, we all do it. We all switch.
- [17:01]
Keke Palmer
And then also there are some of those things that are really constant for me. I think the things about me, no matter what I'm doing or where I am or whatever, something that I feel like is true about me is that I'm always pressed. I try to be present or I am the kind of person that is gonna keep my word. You know, that kind of thing. What are those things to you that come to mind where, you know, okay, like, that's, you know, a fundamental thing.
- [17:32]
Tyler Perry
Of me that I love that I find that about you. To always be present, by the way, and to always keep your word. I find I feel like I've seen that in action. Yeah. It makes me. The who am I? Question is so big that to make it feel smaller or more manageable, I try to make a list of values. So what do I value? So you actually talked about this with Ayanla. I love that episode about authenticity. Authenticity being such a. You know, like the being more important in many ways than love. And authenticity is a big value for me. I can handle it. If you're being authentic, you're telling me the truth. I don't. I really. So when I'm feeling inauthentic, it's a sign for me that I'm a little dysregulated, that I'm. I don't know, maybe I'm putting someone else's needs over my own, or maybe I'm not paying attention to someone else's needs when I feel inauthentic. So my hope is that I am the kind of person, at the end of the day, you're gonna know that if I say I wanna do this, or I like this, or I don't like this. I'm trying to be as authentic as I can. I do feel I take that as a priority. And I work on it. I'm not perfect. I'm working on it. And so I look at things that I value and that I care about. But it's. You know, it's so interesting because this is. It's so funny. You learn the same lessons over and over again. I. I always learn the lesson that people are different. And I know that sounds like the simplest lesson.
- [19:16]
Keke Palmer
No, man.
- [19:18]
Tyler Perry
When you look at it. When you look at the way people handle things and you think, I would never handle it that way. It's just.
- [19:26]
Keke Palmer
Well, that's the whole. That then is like, you know, that's the personal thing of it, all, right? That's. That's the. The detachment theory in all this old stuff where it's like, how do you not put yourself inside of that when someone is projecting so much on you? How do you then not internalize it as well, I wouldn't do this. Or that's not how, you know, because it. But. But it's human because it's coming from a place of not understanding. And like you said, I think playing different characters, that does help us get a. A kind of different vantage point on people. But even still, as the observer of yourself and observer of others, you're gonna fall into the storyline every time.
- [20:04]
Tyler Perry
Yeah, well, you know. You know, when you're playing characters, like, let's say you're improvising, right? You have to be like an active listener. You know, you have to be. You know, you're in a scene, there's two people starting a scene, and you have to lean in and really actively listen. Where are we? What are we doing? What are, you know, what are you talking about? Even, like, that kind of active listening does help you get out of your own head. I think anytime I get someone does something and I get like, caught in my story in my own head, I remind myself, like, maybe just listen. Just take one more minute to listen before you react.
- [20:44]
Keke Palmer
For me, it's the drama sign. Because I think for me, life is quite dramatic. Like when I've decided to be Lauren Kiana Palmer and be this human, there's this little bitty version inside of me that's like, play the role, bitch. Play the role. And when I get into my storyline, it's either happy or sad. And it's those stark, extreme differences that I think I'm always riding the wave of. And as I've gotten older, I've tried to find the in between and continue to remember there's that little person in the back that decided to be a part of the storyline that can also say, I don't have to be right now. This is too much for me. Let me be the in between. Let me be the balance between these two emotions for you. What?
- [21:27]
Tyler Perry
Oh, my God. I'm picturing that happy. I'm picturing that comedy tragedy. You should make four other faces that are in between comedy and tragedy. And like, what are they? That is such a cool Exercise. What are the four other things you get to be in between? Comedy and tragedy.
- [21:46]
Issa Rae
That.
- [21:46]
Tyler Perry
That's so, so cool, baby.
- [21:49]
Keke Palmer
This is Kiki Palma. Yeah. If these April showers got you feeling some type of way, your girl Kiki knows exactly what you need. Some time to reconnect with nature, courtesy of Airbnb. Whether you're craving a mountain escape where you can literally touch the clouds, or need to get your Zen on in a desert oasis, these homes are giving return to nature realness in the best way possible. This time of year, I start getting antsy. Y'all know I've been working hard these past few months, and, baby, me and Leo desperately need some time away. So what's a girl to do? Take myself on over to Airbnb to find a guest favorite home in the middle of nowhere. Right now, I got my eyes on a cute little cottage tucked away in the forest. I gotta make sure that the place is private, well stocked, and cozy for the gods. Bonus points if it has a crystal clear view of the stars and a lake where I can get my fishing on. And if you're like me, Airbnb's got you covered. Whether you're trying to escape the mountains, forests, or, yes, even the desert, we're talking authentic experiences with more space and more privacy in the most magical locations. Book your next adventure today and let nature do its thing. Today's guest is one of the most prolific filmmakers of the past two decades. Of course, you know him as Madea in films like Die of a Mad Black Woman and Madea's Family Reunion. You might have seen his TV shows like the have and have Nots or the Oval. His new film, Divorce in Black, just dropped on Amazon Prime July 11th. Tyler Perry, welcome to the show, and thank you for being here. I mean, you know, and the world knows you're my favorite. I just love everything about you. And the fact that you're a Virgo just takes it over the top.
- [23:32]
Saweetie
Yeah, Virgo season coming up real soon.
- [23:34]
Keke Palmer
So I wanna talk for a second about divorcing Black and how that came to you.
- [23:39]
Saweetie
You know, I heard this voice of this character, kept talking to me. I just started writing things down, and it was Ava. That's how my characters would show up. And she kept telling me, she's not a victim. She loved this man. She loved this man. And I had a friend who was going through a divorce, and she called me up late one night, and she was just telling me how much she loved the man that she was with and how hurt she felt. And I was explaining to her, you can be hurt by what happened, but don't be hurt because you loved him. You weren't a fool. You loved. And when you love somebody, purely love someone from your heart, and you're pure in that love, no matter which way it goes, never feel bad about the love that you gave because that's real, that'll find its way back into your life. So as I was exploring all of that and started writing, I wanted to make sure that Ava wasn't a victim, that Megan Goode's character was strong. But also I wanted her to represent a lot of people, women, men, whoever, who try to love somebody out of a place of pain that they're in without having all the tools to get them out of that space.
- [24:38]
Keke Palmer
Yes.
- [24:38]
Saweetie
Oh, oh, oh. Nope. I saw the look on your face. Yeah. What you trying to. You went deep right there with that thought.
- [24:45]
Keke Palmer
And I mean, I feel that way about so many of your films where they have this vibe of being fun, light hearted and thriller. But then when you get down to it, the message is actually going to hit home. But to you, Mr. Perry, what. What do you say to that? You know, when you are in that situation where you're seeing people in your life, and I'm sure being as successful as you are, you have friends, loved ones that you just can't seem to get them out of their own way, what do you then do with those feelings? You just let them go.
- [25:10]
Saweetie
Yeah. Listen to me. I had to learn to choose myself because there are people in moments that if you keep trying to drag them up to higher altitudes where they can't breathe, they will die. Some people have only been equipped in their life with their life lessons or what they've learned to go to a certain level. That's it. And I have been guilty so many times of trying to pull something. You can do it. Come on up. Come on up. And it's usually the very people that you invest the most in that you try and help the most will be the same ones who turn around and try to destroy you because they feel like the jealousy or you went to a place way further than they ever thought you should go. So what I've learned in this is I have gotten to a place in my life at 54 years old where I look at people and go, okay, tell me who you are and I'm going to believe you. Show me. I'm going to believe you. I'm not going to argue with you. I can't pull you up here if you don't know how to handle this altitude. So stay where you are. You're not a bad person, you're not wrong. But you don't know how to live up here. You don't know how to live at this level. So God bless you. Stay there and I'll do what I can for you on that level. But don't try to come up here and kill me because you are not able to handle this.
- [26:21]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, and I received that. I remember seeing you say something similar to that about this altitude. And it's a great metaphor because it's also true. Look, if you gonna die up here, then I should leave you behind. Because. Because it's better for you to figure out what's going on, on that playing field before you come up somewhere where you can't survive. You know, you were saying if, you know, a lot of people may not have expected me to end up where I am. Well, you started out in a chitlin circuit. What was your mind then? You know, were you always seeing yourself as someone that could get into film and things like that? Or were you just a creative that wanted to just get your work out there?
- [26:54]
Saweetie
I had one goal. I needed to make money to take care of my mother. Cause she was ill. I wanted to retire her. She was working with a bunch of kids. And, you know, kids are little petri dish issues for germs. And so she was always constantly sick and she had diabetes. So all my entire focus was let me just make enough money to take care of her. And I had been through being homeless and in poverty all my life. So when I got a little bit of money, I said, okay. Nothing seemed to be enough. No amount of money was enough to take care of my mother. I just. Nothing would make me comfortable. And I found myself being in this place where I was uncomfortable all of my adult life while she was alive, because no matter how much I had, it wasn't enough. So that's where it started. That's where the grind started. The working so hard started. It was all about, can I take care of her? And what I can say about my audience if they never did anything else for me. They allowed me to take care of her to the day she died and give her a life that she never imagined. That for me, that's all I need to be grateful forever. Forever, Right. But yeah, starting out in the stage shows, I didn't go into Hollywood. I didn't come in through that system. So I didn't have the system stamp or the carving that that system will give You. It'll carve you into a hole, into a box, and you have to operate in that box. Well, I was malleable and loose, so I didn't come in through that so I could do things outside of the box. And I think that's put me in this position. So I'm grateful for not coming through Hollywood.
- [28:18]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So when you did go into Hollywood, I think the first thing you did was Diary of Mad Black Woman, one of your plays. Why did you choose that one to be your first feature film?
- [28:30]
Saweetie
Because I knew it would hit. I knew, you know, I got to Hollywood and then white folks and them white folks at the desk were like, what is this? We're not going to do this. But I knew I had all them black folks who had seen it all over the country, and I knew what that meant for them to stand with me. So when it opened at number one, everybody in town was scratching their head. I'll never forget, it was Oscar weekend. Everybody's scratching their head, like, where is this move? Who is this Tyler Perry person? So. So it was because of all those people that I was able to do that and still to this day, continue.
- [29:00]
Keke Palmer
And it's so amazing when I think about it, because I remember before I even became an entertainer, you know, I started doing performing when I was about nine years old, but Madea, you know, and Tyler Perry had existed before then. So I remember being in Chicago. Oh, my gosh. I remember going to my uncle's and aunt's house, and they're like, have y'all seen the new Tyler Perry play? And they'll put it on and we're watching it. It was just insane. And I actually used the model that you had of, you know, your work already existing and being big and you having that kind of proof that data and being able to empower yourself in the film industry. I used a lot of that when I had to revamp my career, you know, from being a child entertainer and reaching this moment where everybody was kind of like, okay, you've grown up. This is what we see for you. If you're not gonna fit into this box, then that's that. So I turned to digital. You know, it wasn't necessarily stage shows, but I chose digital as a way to produce my own work and kind of set the stage for who I wanted to be. And if you want to get a part of that, then you can. Because, look, I have this audience, and they're rocking with me, so either jump on board or not. And Something I wanted to point out as well was when you started working with Lionsgate, I read that you had a deal that they would co produce and distribute the films, but you will retain all copyright ownership.
- [30:14]
Amy Poehler
That's everything.
- [30:15]
Keke Palmer
Oh, my gosh. I think that is such an important thing when we're having this conversation about ownership and entrepreneurship and what intellectual property means to the creator. How did you know to do that and how hard did you have to fight for?
- [30:31]
Saweetie
Wasn't a fight for me because it was a non negotiable. I was not gonna negotiate with anybody about that. And because I had had that audience that had been with me who had made me pretty wealthy going into Hollywood, I didn't need them. I was selling DVDs from my website at the time and they were bootlegged everywhere, but people were fighting them. But I wasn't to give up ownership as a non negotiable because what happens is I know what that does for your future and for your power and for what? It's the difference in waiting for somebody to give you a job or knowing that a check is going to be in the mailbox whether you have a job or not. So I wanted to build this legacy and for my son and my future, even though I didn't know he was coming at the time. But also watching Oprah own her show, it was that example that are like, oh, well, what does that mean? She owns her show? Wait, wait, wait. That's what that means. So even from the beginning, when I was doing the stage shows, like, my name had to be on the marquee and my name had to be on the tickets, and the promoters were getting mad. Who does this kid think he is? Why are you putting it? I was building a brand. I knew that in order to build that, people have to remember the name. If you order for you to stand out, you've got to have something that they remember. It all started from my father, who worked for a white man building houses. I say white man for a reason. Worked for a white man building houses. And he was a subcontractor. So on the weekend he'd get his $800 and he'd be so happy he got paid. But I watched the white guy sell the house for $80,000. I'm like, why won't you take the money and build your own house and sell it? Him and my mother, coming from a Jim Crow south, they didn't think that they would tell me that kind of thing is for white folks. They can't do it. But everything in me was going, that's not true. I can own the house too. So that's what this is about, owning the house and building it from that.
- [32:09]
Keke Palmer
Point of view, how did you tap into knowing that? Right, because we can hear these things and we can feel these ways, but the action that you put behind it and the follow through is what makes the difference. Was this the people that you surrounded yourselves with? Were you reading, you know, what was that that made you know that those were the steps you had to take?
- [32:27]
Saweetie
All I can tell you, for me, I have a divine leading grace on my life that I call the grace of God that I just follow. If it doesn't feel right, I don't do it. I said, that doesn't feel right. Let me go this direction. And I've had agents in Hollywood be really upset with me because I wanted wouldn't do this. Do you know how much money? That's not what I want to do. That doesn't feel right. I'm going to go this way. Tyler, that's. And they would always tell me, that's not going to work. Like with House of Pain, you know, when I went to do the episodes, they said, only do one and Polly will shop it around. It's like, no, I feel like I need to do 10. I'm going to do 10. So I did these first 10. They sat in a can forever and nobody wanted them. And then UPN and WB or WB and one of them, they became the cw. There was a merger. All the affiliates were without programming. So they started calling around, what do you have? Somebody said, this guy in Atlanta's got these 10 episodes. They put it on. The ratings were higher than what was there before. So it was like being prepared, right? So I have constantly in prayer. I want to be prepared for what's coming next. What is the next moment that's coming. I want to be clear about it. Like when I built my first studio, by the time I got to this one I'm in now. When I saw it, I thought if I had seen it first, I would have like, this is too much land. But I learned to build for where I was going and not where I was. So all of these things happened in progress. As I was. As I was growing and working and paying attention to everything, to everything.
- [33:47]
Keke Palmer
What are you doing in those in between times when you're making these kinds of leaps? Because they are leaps of faith. Like you said, you're creating for where you're going. But you have to have the faith that you're Going there. What are you thinking in the in between time that's helping you maintain when things get, you know, weary?
- [34:04]
Saweetie
Well, listen, I was homeless and out on the street, and nothing for me was darker than that period, except growing up in my father's house. So I know how to do that. I know how to figure out what to eat, and I know how to be poor. The challenge wasn't that I didn't know how to do that. I didn't have an option or a choice. So the option of the choice was, how do I go higher? How do I have more? How do I embrace that? How do I embody what God has for me? And also the understanding of getting too worthy. We, as a people getting too worthy struggle with being worthy. And I'm telling you, sitting in this seat and having all kinds of friends who have been wealthy since they were kids, and the level of. They are supposed to have it. The level of I deserve it. It was powerful to see. Because then I see black people going, oh, no, that's too much. I don't know. No, no. What happened to this mentality? You're here, you're alive. Why not? If they can, we can, too. So that's what I want people to get and understand fully. Just open yourself up to being worthy of it. I'm worthy of this. I should have good things. I should have good health. My kids should be able to do well. I shouldn't be struggling, waiting for the next check. We have a pathology as black people of, well, we're only going to get money when the money is gone. Which means that you work two weeks, you gotta spend all that before more money comes. We gotta get past all of that so we can get to a place where I can have more than enough. I deserve more than enough. Our ancestors already paid for everything we have, and we're not taking advantage of it. And there's nothing more frustrating. Especially, like, I love seeing you. Your hustle, your grind. But when I'm seeing people your age and younger looking at folks on Instagram thinking that's how my life should be, and they don't wanna put the work in or the time. Like, no, no. Cause what you're seeing ain't really real.
- [35:47]
Keke Palmer
No, it's not real.
- [35:48]
Saweetie
So I want people to really, fully get it. You know, I have people that I've worked with, and I'm like, I know what they're making, and I'm looking at them on private jets and traveling the world. I'm going, who paying for that yet?
- [35:58]
Keke Palmer
Okay, I've seen it myself, too.
- [36:02]
Saweetie
Yeah.
- [36:06]
Keke Palmer
I am so ready to talk to today's guest. You guys have no idea. Okay. You probably know her well. You definitely should know her from Hulu series the Bear. Get into It. Or you might know her from the animated Netflix series Big Mouth. Okay. She's my castmate. She's also an incredibly talented writer and standup comedian. It is, of course, Ayo Adebri. Hey, Kara. I just need you to know, I need y'all to know that, you know, those of you who aren't here in the audience that are listening, her hair is bouncing and behaving okay. It is giving all the life that it needs to give.
- [36:48]
Amy Poehler
It's a little blowout, you know, little deep conditioner the night before.
- [36:53]
Keke Palmer
And you know that's hard to attain, especially when it's hot outside like it is. Why would it be this hot right now?
- [36:58]
Amy Poehler
No, it's very disrespectful. It's very disrespectful. My hair feels like this. The follicles are covered right now. They're covered by the blood. I don't know.
- [37:06]
Keke Palmer
Where are you from?
- [37:07]
Amy Poehler
I'm from Boston.
- [37:08]
Keke Palmer
Okay, so it's kind of like, does Boston get humid? One small.
- [37:11]
T.S. Madison
Woo.
- [37:11]
Amy Poehler
That's correct. Well, no, because it does get humid, but, like, being by the sea, you always do have, like, a little bit of a breeze. And growing up, the buildings weren't aggressively tall, so it wasn't like that New York thing where it's like you're just sweltering under, like, the pressure of metal buildings.
- [37:32]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:33]
Amy Poehler
Now it's. Now they're building it up. Now they're trying to make it like a proper city. So it's.
- [37:38]
Keke Palmer
It gets higher and higher.
- [37:40]
Amy Poehler
Well, how old are we?
- [37:41]
Keke Palmer
We're like, these buildings are just getting taller and taller.
- [37:47]
Amy Poehler
I remember when I was a girl.
- [37:48]
JT
Oh, yeah.
- [37:49]
Keke Palmer
Buildings were probably about 2ft, 3ft high. Just you just going far as to. We can't go anymore. So obviously, we're talking about storytelling. We're here with audible. And you are extraordinarily multifaceted. I mean, you directed an episode of the Bear this year for the third season. That's insane. Writer, actress, sing. I saw you sing. I mean, you're fabulous. So not too much on the scene.
- [38:15]
Amy Poehler
The YouTube covers from high school, that's very much like a symptom of how old we are, though.
- [38:21]
Keke Palmer
And I just want to know, like, how do people find this stuff?
- [38:23]
Amy Poehler
Stop looking for.
- [38:24]
Keke Palmer
They were stalking.
- [38:25]
Amy Poehler
Stop looking for my memories. Like, we were out Here with just a ukulele and a dream in high school, you know, just. Just let them go. If you see we were living for, say something.
- [38:34]
Keke Palmer
We're living for you at all times. So I want to start off asking, because I was talking to you backstage before, like, literally, you do stand up, which is insane. I did, like, a little bit of stand up, and it's really. I mean, it's such. I think when we see people get up there and do it, it seems like y'all make it look so easy. Is 1, 2, 3. But the concept of, like, really writing this story in this unique form, it's almost like this long monologue that you don't know when people are gonna laugh. You don't know if they're. If they are. And then you gotta go. Then you might have a heckler, so you gotta pop out and then get back into script.
- [39:04]
Amy Poehler
Yeah.
- [39:04]
Keke Palmer
So I just want to start from the skill of writing. When did you decide to start the process of actually doing standup and getting into that style of writing?
- [39:14]
Amy Poehler
Well, stand up started when I was in high school, and I was, like, very. I don't know, simultaneously, I was very afraid and, I guess very unafraid.
- [39:22]
Keke Palmer
Yeah.
- [39:22]
Amy Poehler
Daring and. Yeah. And my best friend, who was also on the improv team with me at that time, he had been going to open mics, and I was like, well, that's for adults.
- [39:33]
Keke Palmer
Come on, that's for adults.
- [39:34]
Amy Poehler
We can't vote. So. Huh? And he was like, just trust me, it's fun. Let's just go. And we started going to these mics together, and we were always the youngest people there, but it was always just so much fun. And I think, too, there was a point where I was like, oh, well, I'm not good, but I'm just as bad as basically everybody else here. That's kind of comforting. And I also had a friend that I was doing it with, so that is how that started. And we would send each other stand up that we loved, whether it was clips or, like, downloads of people's albums that, like, somebody had given us. And so then we would, like, send them to each other for free because we didn't have any money to buy anything. And then again, I feel, like, that instinct of me as, like, you know, that's like, me as a little kid, I always see when I get, like, very excited about an idea, and I just want to know as much as possible. I want to eat, sleep, and breathe it. Basically, that. That's where that started, is that when.
- [40:32]
Keke Palmer
You think you Realize that. Oh, wait a minute. This is really my. Like, this entertainment performance thing is really my passion that I want to pursue.
- [40:39]
Amy Poehler
No, I don't think I felt that way until I was. Almost graduated with college, really. Because that was when I changed my major to study writing. The whole time I had just been doing it kind of, like, for me, and I think I didn't believe that, like, it was a real career.
- [40:59]
Keke Palmer
Yeah.
- [41:00]
Amy Poehler
Really long time.
- [41:01]
Keke Palmer
Yeah.
- [41:02]
Amy Poehler
And what did your parents.
- [41:03]
Keke Palmer
Were they. Were your parents artsy types?
- [41:05]
Amy Poehler
No. Well, like, you know, they would take us to see a show or a movie or, you know, we were surrounded by music and in, like, church, but they weren't super expressive about it. Like, and we didn't have, like, as much access. I think also in Boston, it's like, oh.
- [41:23]
Keke Palmer
Oh, cool.
- [41:23]
Amy Poehler
The Urban Nutcracker and Wicked are coming again. So it's like, after a while, you're kind of not the Nutcracker.
- [41:31]
Keke Palmer
Catching a stray.
- [41:33]
Amy Poehler
With much love. With much love. Seen the Urban Nutcracker many a time, and I probably will again in my lifetime. But, yeah, there's a bit of a ceiling, I think, to how much I knew. And it wasn't until I went to New York for college.
- [41:46]
Keke Palmer
Yes, New York will do it, wasn't it?
- [41:48]
Amy Poehler
And, I mean, but I was also seeing, like, black women, especially, like, actually making a living. And I think my scope of understanding was so much smaller, too. Like, I couldn't really figure out a way how to, like, apply it to my life.
- [42:04]
Keke Palmer
Yeah.
- [42:05]
Amy Poehler
And, you know, and even, like, when I was a little, there definitely was a period when I was, like, little, little. And I was like, oh, man. Like, I want to be an actor.
- [42:12]
Keke Palmer
Amanda Bynes. Amanda, man.
- [42:13]
T.S. Madison
Amanda. Amanda.
- [42:14]
Amy Poehler
And then you're like. You're kind of googling like, okay, how to do that thing.
- [42:19]
JT
Yes.
- [42:19]
Amy Poehler
And then it's like you read a story. It's like, yeah, like, you know, we packed up our bags and moved to California.
- [42:24]
Keke Palmer
It's insane.
- [42:24]
Amy Poehler
And I'm like, I'm gonna tell my African father to pack up the family's bags and move to California. Be for real.
- [42:33]
Keke Palmer
And my parents literally did that, which is insane.
- [42:36]
Amy Poehler
Well, but you did you have family out here?
- [42:39]
Keke Palmer
No, my parents literally did that. Literally.
- [42:42]
Amy Poehler
That's amazing.
- [42:43]
Keke Palmer
Drove four days, three nights. My dad took his pension out. But it is crazy, though. It's a crazy thing. I mean, I think the reason why my parents did that was because they wish somebody had did that for them, for them. So I think it was kind of that thing, you know, were you very.
- [42:57]
Amy Poehler
Like, driven about it, though. Like, yeah, so that's the thing about me. I would give up. I would give up. I remember we went to. So I don't know if you'll remember this on the radio. They would have, like, the Radio Disney things. They'd be like, hey, if you're in the greater Boston area and you want to be on the Disney Channel shows, come on down to this big arena. Nothing weird's happening here. And so then you go to the big arena, and then I'm like, here it is. Like, they're gonna see. They're gonna finally make their. And I remember going with my dad, and I just remember seeing all these families and all these kids that were just like us and very much a depressed child. Like, Emily Dickinson audiobooks, sort of vibes for me. But then, yeah, I just remember seeing all those kids and just being like, oh, this is. This is maybe. And they're like, yeah, just pay $500 and we'll take you to Florida. Yeah. And so then I was like, all right, let's go. I'll just keep reading, whatever.
- [43:53]
Keke Palmer
But it is that kind of thing. And I think that, you know, at that point that you realize it could be a career for you, how did that affect your creativity? Because I do think taking it seriously so young for me, a lot of times it was like I had to always kind of remind myself, have fun with it, especially as I got older. Yes. So how did that impact you coming from? This is for me to. Okay, this is actually something that I have to do for a living.
- [44:16]
Amy Poehler
I think it made everything blossom for me because I realized, like, I didn't have to put this, like, front on a little bit. Like, I didn't have to have this separation. It was okay to be vulnerable and to, like, deep dive. And I had a teacher who I remember I would always, like, write stuff, and I'd be like, eh, I don't know. It's corny. Or blah, blah, blah. I don't know if this idea works or whatever. And she was just like, how do you know that? You haven't fully explored it. And also, what does being corny mean? She's like, actually, what does it mean?
- [44:51]
Keke Palmer
I love that she said that, because people love to do that to you when you're not fitting into a particular body, especially as a black person.
- [44:56]
Amy Poehler
Everything.
- [44:57]
Keke Palmer
We gotta always be cool. I don't know how to be cool all the damn time. So I'm cheesy, corny, whatever you want to call it.
- [45:04]
Amy Poehler
I'm just Trying to be me, myself and explore these things, that it's like, low key. You wish you could. That's why you're calling me corny from your bedroom.
- [45:12]
Keke Palmer
Okay.
- [45:13]
Amy Poehler
But, like, you know, it's. It, I think, because it is scary. It's scary. And I think people, like, see, can, and they recognize that because it's like you recognize it in yourself. But I think we do all owe it to ourselves to explore the fullness of our ideas.
- [45:29]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you, because.
- [45:30]
Amy Poehler
Nobody thinks like you. I think that's such a superpower, like recognizing that nobody has your exact same thought when you do or when you say something at the same time as somebody. There's a reason why it's so exciting. It's because 99% of the time we have our own beautiful, unique thoughts. They're just ours. So when you do the world and everybody, the service and the gift of sharing them, and, I don't know, it's beautiful. It's like a point of connection.
- [45:57]
Keke Palmer
How did you feel that you got to that point? Because I do think that it's difficult for people. What was the thing that let you know that? My opinion and my thoughts and what I choose to believe in, it should be most important. It's worthy.
- [46:10]
Amy Poehler
I don't know what exactly it was, but I do remember just being in New York especially, and I was sort of in the alt comedy scene. Like, which.
- [46:21]
Keke Palmer
What does that mean exactly?
- [46:22]
Amy Poehler
So there's like, different schools of comedy, and you'll see, like, you know, more club comics that's maybe like a little more mainstream. Like, there's just different spaces of doing things and by that logic, different types of jokes and, like, different types of acts. But, like, in the alt comedy scene, especially in New York, like, in that period of time, people were just doing whatever and, like, insane, amazing things I could never have pictured. And, you know, now then it's like some of those people, like Julio Torres, like, was a writer for SNL and has amazing shows, like, on hbo. But like, at that time, it's like you're just doing things in life, like basement venues. But I think seeing people do that and knowing that I was able to see and feel the fullness of their ideas. And like, you know, me in a chair in a basement that surely has asbestos in Brooklyn. I'm like, being transformed by that. You know, it's like, well, then if they can do that for me, like, why can't I? By that logic, why can't I do that? And even if it's not for somebody else, at least for myself.
- [47:32]
Keke Palmer
Like, I love hearing that about the comedy community, because I do think it is very daring to get up there and not only just give this monologue, but there's so many stories that you're telling about yourself. It's very vulnerable in every aspect. What different ways are you pulling when you're doing maybe, like, your character on the bear? How does your creative process differ from when you're doing your monologue or doing your show for standup?
- [47:56]
Amy Poehler
Well, I think that was, like, one of the biggest learning curves, especially when we started. Cause Chris and I knew each other from comedy and from writing. That's how we met. And he had seen me perform, and he was like, no, you can do this. And I was like, are we sure? It's just all, to me, different types of collaboration. And when you do stand up, yeah, for the most part, you are alone on stage. But I do think it is a collaboration between yourself and the audience. You have to be able to ride the wave of their feelings. No audience is the same. They don't listen the same. They don't react the same. You might do a show in the same venue two nights in a row, and where people laugh in a joke is different. And that can tell you so much about how that joke is gonna go, how that set is gonna go, how you need to adapt yourself in order to make the set go smoothly. And also, you kind of have to be willing to change your definition of what that means, too. Like, what is a good set to you and why? So, yeah, I think there's, like, that relationship and that collaboration, and then, you know, it's like a different one on set when you're actor and you're, like, in service to somebody else's vision.
- [49:04]
JT
Yes.
- [49:04]
Amy Poehler
And also, like, when you're doing tv, too, like, you. And you've been doing a character for a few years or whatever, like, you know, the character, but then, like, a guest director comes in and they have a different opinion, and it's like, it's. It's all different types of, like, puzzles also, which I kind of love.
- [49:20]
Keke Palmer
I love what you said, though, about the. Everything you said, obviously. But I love what you said specifically about the relationship with the audience. Because even when I think about that, even when I'm not on stage, especially now with social media, as an entertainer, we're always having these really intense kind of like, well, we don't know each other, so it's kind of parasocial. But I do feel like, you know, me and I'm trying to communicate. Communicate my art to you.
- [49:43]
Amy Poehler
Yes.
- [49:43]
Keke Palmer
How do you.
- [49:44]
Amy Poehler
And also, like the line I think of personhood.
- [49:48]
Keke Palmer
Yes.
- [49:48]
Amy Poehler
Like. And like the character.
- [49:51]
Keke Palmer
The character of who I'm presenting, who we're all presenting. Like, we all present somebody because how can I really get you inside of me and knowing me.
- [49:57]
Amy Poehler
Yes, yes.
- [49:58]
Keke Palmer
I'm trying to show it to you.
- [49:59]
Amy Poehler
Well, also, it's kind of like that'd be insane to meet somebody off the street and be like, hey, so you want to know the inner workings of my soul? It's like, that's a bit much.
- [50:07]
Keke Palmer
Much.
- [50:08]
Amy Poehler
Literally bit much. So it's like that dance is very. It's very, very, very delicate.
- [50:12]
Keke Palmer
Yes, baby, this is. I'm losing my mind over our guest today. Okay. A two time Grammy nominee, the founder of a nonprofit, the queen of content and marketing. And all around, just an amazing woman. No one, including me, can get enough of her. Of course. I'm talking to Saweetie. Welcome to the show, girl. Hey, Kiki.
- [50:40]
Ike Palmer
Thank you, girl.
- [50:42]
Keke Palmer
Okay, so I want to go back to the beginning because I met you like, what, 2016, 2017. We had mutual friends, and this was around the time that. Well, first of all, let me say this. I think you're amazing at your marketing. And I watched it build over time. I know you said an interview before. You see yourself more as a brand than just a rapper. What does that mean? What does being a rapper to you mean? And then. And what. What is a brand to you?
- [51:08]
Ike Palmer
I feel like as a rapper, as an artist, that's specifically music. And what I've built over these past couple of years, I think I became a multifaceted business beyond artistry. And I think that's what makes me a brand. A brand is Icy Girl. A brand is the Snowflake. A brand is. I know.
- [51:29]
Keke Palmer
Music.
- [51:30]
Ike Palmer
Yeah, Pretty girl music. A brand is all these things that have. That have became centric for the Saweetie. Lifestyle.
- [51:38]
Keke Palmer
Yes, sweetie. Lifestyle. I'm here for that.
- [51:42]
Ike Palmer
Yeah, it's me. You know, it's just a multifaceted image and that's what I fortunately have become. So I'm really thankful for that and I am very grateful for the fans who have stuck with me along the way.
- [51:56]
Keke Palmer
I want to talk to you a little bit about your grandma real quick because I like something that I heard you said about her, that she kind of told you to always have seven different sources of income. Like, she was an entrepreneur. So how did your lessons from your grandmother kind of help you figure out how to manage this so you could support your career.
- [52:14]
Ike Palmer
Well, when she told me that, I automatically was like, you know, how am I going to get this money? And when she told me that, I was like, in middle school. So I probably started. I started doing, like, bake sales, and I was, come on. Yeah, I've always been about that money. Okay. But then after that, another life lesson, I learned that, yes, I want seven streams of income, but what's going to be the platform for that? The platform was music. So I had to put all my time and my energy into music. And from there, I was able to tap into these other ventures that I was interested in. Light content, like makeup, like beauty, like fashion, like all these other things that I've always had an interest in. But you have to put your focus somewhere and then build off that.
- [52:55]
Keke Palmer
I think that is important. Also. A key piece you said is like, you know, because people always say, what is it? Jack of all trades, master of none? And I kind of resent that statement because it's this idea that you only can do one thing. But the truth in what it is you just said is you need a bouncing board to be able to be important and seen in another area. So if I got something off the ground real quick, even if it's just real quick now, I can leverage that. So I think that's a great point.
- [53:22]
Ike Palmer
And you have all people should know that because you started in acting, you're great at music, you're now starting this thing with the podcast that has grown out to be this beautiful thing. You now get into all these other things. And we've seen Kiki from Aquila and the Bee, so I've always been a fan, so it's just nice to see another woman doing that as well.
- [53:41]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, it definitely does feel good. And I think that's why I've always had such an affinity for you, even just from seeing the music, but then, like, realizing, no, this girl is for real. Because you never know if people are for real. And I know a lot of people say, oh, you know, they. First of all, I like when you explained it on one of these interviews where people were trying to make, you know, asking you about pretty girl music, and you're like, no, pretty girl music is if you feel pretty and you not a hater. That's what it is. And I love when you said that, because it's like, don't push your stuff on me. This is what I'm actually saying. But I want to zero in on it because how do you feel? You know, I feel I have my own stuff that people box me into when they try to make it seem like you're just supposed to be pretty, like they don't want. You know what I mean? Don't do this. Don't do that. We don't want to hear that. We don't want to do this. How do you manage dealing with that? Because you are beautiful, but it's like, that's not all I am.
- [54:30]
Ike Palmer
Honestly, how do I manage that? I manage myself. And my best. My best way to respond to those type of people is through winning, is through my music. It's through my brand deals. It's to. It's through persevering. And I love me a good quote. I read one yesterday, and it's. And it said, the people who are not where you. Where you are will always say more than the people who have gone past you. So it's just like, yes, me and you may get that. Those constructive criticisms or those criticism or those comments, but it's just like when you see the person who's giving it to you. Where are y'all at in your life now?
- [55:02]
Keke Palmer
That's T. Boo. Guys, I'm too thrilled for my guest today. She makes up half of the rap duo City Girls. She has her own lifestyle brand, and last year, she launched an initiative to help provide resources to formally incur incarcerated women, period. You already know who it is, jt. Welcome to the show. Hey, girl.
- [55:25]
JT
Hi, everybody.
- [55:27]
Keke Palmer
Girl, so where you at right now? Are you in Miami?
- [55:31]
JT
No, I'm in la. I don't even. I don't live in Miami no more, but I don't live in Miami.
- [55:35]
Keke Palmer
Where are you at?
- [55:36]
JT
But I'm working.
- [55:37]
Keke Palmer
You work. Okay. You working. You in the studio, you collabing with artists, you doing your own solo thing, getting ready for your album. What you doing?
- [55:43]
JT
Well, I'm actually out here finishing the last finishing touches, so. City Cinderella, my first solo project, girl.
- [55:51]
Keke Palmer
Now that's Tiwu. How's it going so far? I mean, how do you feel about the project?
- [55:56]
JT
I love it. I love it so much. I. I really, really, really love this project. It's the type of music I would listen to all day, so. And I just feel like it's a missing piece to female rap in rap, period, right now. So I just.
- [56:11]
Keke Palmer
Just.
- [56:12]
JT
I just love it so much.
- [56:13]
Keke Palmer
Well, I definitely want to get into that and everything that you've been working on, because, girl, from sideways to okay, you know, I've been tuned in. You know, you're my girl, so I definitely Want to get into all that. I was also want to get into city girl stuff. But first I want to talk about your individual evolution as an artist. Okay. Because you released your first mixtape when this. What was it, 2018. How would you compare who you were then, who that JT was to who you are now?
- [56:43]
JT
I would say that I wasn't an artist then. I didn't know much about branding and building a world around myself and how important it is to be a brand, an artist. Even when making music, you have to make sure that you are very neat with the world around you and what people know you for.
- [57:03]
Keke Palmer
So what is that? What is the you of it all? What is that essence and that flavor? Is that Miami? Is that the Persona Persona that you started to evolve and go, you know, grow into after, you know, coming in industry and just experiencing the world? Like, what the JT that. That you grow into? How did you pull to create this aesthetic? Like, I have to know.
- [57:22]
JT
I swear to God. Like, what people don't know about me is like when I was. When I went to college for fashion merchandising, I had a business called Fly Support where I made custom shirts for football girlfriends and wives. Because at the time I was dating football players. I literally always.
- [57:37]
Keke Palmer
Now that's T. Boo.
- [57:39]
JT
Yes. I always built around me, and I always created motion and movement and money around me. I always accumulated success, like, always. I always been a hustler. I feel like the biggest mistake I did make was scamming me because they landed my ass in prison. But I even made money doing that. I just always got right. I always been a visionary, and I always just had the gift of. And I just got favor over my life. So I don't. It's just me. It's just me. This always have been me. It's just like people get to see it now because you're just looking directly at me. But if you look back into my history on my Facebook of you can look past those mug shots. I think a lot of people just stop at the mug shots, but they.
- [58:26]
Keke Palmer
Don'T look at me.
- [58:28]
JT
Just stop at the mug shots. And they don't go deeper into my history of like. Like, I dropped when I dropped out of school. I went back to school and I got 24 credits in like a year and passed the FCAT and did everything. I always been smart. I always been elite, but I just always been on my own timing. I could say that, like, I've always been a girl of my own timing. It's. It's never And I don't think there's.
- [58:51]
Keke Palmer
Anything wrong with that. I think that that's got to be encouraged more because people try to press you and push you and get you out there before you're not ready. And, and especially when it comes to being an artist, you have to have time to experience and evolve and it.
- [59:03]
JT
Has to feel like the right time. When it don't feel like the right time, it's not the right time. I met this little girl at my pop up shop. She was a little girl, she was like 6 years old and her aunt brought her and she was like, she wanna dance for you. She wanna dance for you. But the little girl was so scared, so she was getting mad at the little girl. Like she wanna. I pulled the little girl to the side. I said, you have all day to dance. Okay? If you wanna. Whenever you feel like you wanna dance, you pick the song and I'm gonna let you dance to it. I will never rush you. The little girl tapped me and said, I'm ready, like 15 minutes, I'm ready. She did her thing and I let her know, don't ever let nobody push you and rush you to dance because they want you to dance. And the aunt was looking at like it was just a good experience for her. And I feel like a lot of parents, aunts, and you know, like family members are forcing people to be ready when they're not. And when you ready, you will know you're ready. The world will know you ready. You will see that. Okay, ready.
- [59:53]
Keke Palmer
So it's that thing that people always have where it's like, oh, I'm gonna miss my chance or this is my shot. And like you, like you were saying, people try to say that's type of stuff online or whatever about somebody. It's like, baby, life is a marathon. Y'all love talking about that line when it comes to nipy, but did y'all know what he was talking about? For real? It's a marathon. It's not a race. It's not where I started. It's not where I'm at in the middle. It's where I end up. And that takes time. It really, really does.
- [60:18]
JT
It takes time and real work and real groundwork and real vision. If everything is handed to you, it can be taken away. So you got to remember that. And you have to remember that even when it seems like you're behind, you're not behind. We. We all have a destination in life and it's all written for us. So just cause you moving fast, that don't mean you gonna stop faster or just because you're moving slow. It's just. It's whatever. It's whatever you feel. And just make sure you happy. I remember it was a time I went through a very depressing time thinking that I was behind. And I. And I would. My boyfriend will always talk to me about it and just like, it's just music, and you can put it out at any given time and if the song good enough or it will resonate with a group of people. So you're never behind when it comes to putting out music.
- [61:08]
Keke Palmer
You're talking about Uzi. Yeah.
- [61:09]
JT
Yeah.
- [61:10]
Keke Palmer
So Uzi, you know, girl, I want to make sure. I love that. I agree with everything he said. And I know and I feel that on a real level from knowing him way back in Atlanta. He was in the studio, he be working, and everybody in the city knew him. Him. But it wasn't like, everybody know his music now. And he acted the same way that he is today. And it was always like, I'm Uzi. I'ma be Uzi. Like, he had this energy. And so I remember when I was like, that's the same. I remember when he became the Uzi that we know now. And I love that he was telling you that because he's somebody that literally lives that. Like, he lived that. I watched him be like, I'm who I am before y'all know who I am. And I'm always going to bring what I'm bringing to the industry. He's always been that. What? And it's like, it's true. There's an audience for everyone.
- [61:56]
JT
He's a Leo. So he just know he the. Like, you can't tell him nothing about himself. Like, he never fades. He's so Leo. Like. Like, whatever. Like, so I'm lucky to know someone like him, you know, Even though I don't listen to. I don't listen to nothing he say. Like, I still be going off on him because he was telling me, like, baby, you need to stop. Like, put the phone down. Like, you are a celebrity. And I'm like, but I do again.
- [62:22]
Keke Palmer
I think everybody is different. So I do love when you get into your bag and you be talking, you be dragging the girls, you know, I DM you real quick. And I be like, eat her up. Like, you know, I live for it. So it's a part of, you know, it's part of your tease. It's like, that's jt. Don't come for her. Like, no, don't like that.
- [62:38]
JT
Don't I love it. I, I, I love it. And some days I don't. It depends on the situation. Sometimes I feel dirty after arguing. Don't get me wrong. I be like, oh girl, use a dirty. Why would you sitting up there?
- [62:52]
Keke Palmer
I feel dirty.
- [62:54]
JT
But you know what? I, I have to, I always have to take it to hell with just because I don't know what it is about me. Just, just don't like me. And I. And if you go and ask why they don't like me, I promise you they don't have no good. They, they don't have no reason. I think because I get this standoff, I don't want to be bothered energies bitches. But I with who I with. And then when I you I you heavy. I feel like we just all forced to be this kumbaya.
- [63:21]
Keke Palmer
And I feel like when you are. I feel like obviously you're very beautiful, you're very successful. And I think we sometimes are in this time where people think, well, because you have it all. I should be able to say whatever I want to say with you. Like you and you should deal with that. And you, you're like, no honey, I don't care what you think I got. I don't care how you think I'm living. I'm still gonna drag your ass no matter what. And so I think that's why sometimes people be, you know, obviously I don't know what's in people's heads, but I know you're a nice person.
- [63:47]
Coco Jones
But it's not only.
- [63:49]
JT
It's literally not only the trolls. It's real people who's in my space, in my vicinity, who should not be even saying my name, but they still do. And I feel like they said because they know I'm a react and you right, I am. And it's like I want to change from that. I want to. I really, really do. I swear to God, I really, really want to pray that out of me. Like, I don't want to be that girl to react so fast. But as of now, it's like y'all just have me up. I feel so sometimes I feel like just be just like huddling up like let's get this. And it's just never.
- [64:27]
Keke Palmer
Well, I mean let's talk about that because I do think that there is something to that. When you are again a successful person, a beautiful person, you have something that people want point they absolutely will try to get you up out your spot. Oh, let me try to do that's a very real thing like, let me get her in trouble or let me get her. That's like, right? People try to be like, let me get him mad so he can get mad, you know? So definitely that is a form of hating to just say something and set me stage to gaslight you.
- [64:52]
JT
You know, always when I put out music, it's always when I put out music. When I put out music with the city girls, I never used to argue on release date. It's like a really sweet. Ever since I've been solo, baby.
- [65:05]
Keke Palmer
These.
- [65:06]
JT
In my neck, I'm like, lord, please leave me the alone. But then I'll be like, okay, baby, let me put on my shoes, because I'm gonna get out there with you every time. But I literally want to leave me alone. Like, I. I swear to God. And it'd be the. At home, they'd be like, oh, she be starting. Please show me every time, every time. Like, I never.
- [65:23]
Keke Palmer
I'm here to tell you, girl, as long as your bomb is these bitches not gonna leave you alone. So, you know, we're young, we have time to. Back in the day, my mama used to cuss everybody out. I remember we went to private school. She cussed out the archdiocese. She has changed so much. By the time she got like 40, 50, she calmed down. So you got about like 15 more years of cussing people out, and then you be tired.
- [65:46]
JT
15 more. Ooh, I don't know if I can do 15 more.
- [65:53]
Keke Palmer
I am absolutely thrilled to have today's guest on the show. Okay. She is a powerhouse singer and actress who has been lighting up our screens and playlist. Okay. You might know her as Hillary Banks on the show Bel Air or from her hit Grammy winning single icu. Either way, y'all, you're in for a treat. Okay. Please welcome to the show, the amazing Coco John. We've known you for years. Obviously, I always talk about. Because you were in this movie with Tyler James Williams and also Trevor Jackson, two of my guys. And Let it Shine, which was a huge hit for Disney. That's when I first. But I want to go back to even before then. And I really want to talk about how people can really get to know you. I mean, obviously you've had the Grammy winning icu. Your music has been blowing up. What would be your advice to other young girls or guys, artists that are trying to find their voice and stay in it? Right. Because I think there's a lot of patience in what you're saying. And what I know from my career as well is having patience and Understanding that some things are part of the course.
- [66:50]
Coco Jones
Yes, yes. I mean, half of it is. You know what? It was Sza that had told me that this years and years and years and years ago, being a little delusional. And I was like, what? But girl, I get it. Because you actually have to push past your reality, past the fear in other people's mind, the projection of fear that they might want to put onto you past times and years and age, past logic sometimes, you know what I'm saying? And pushing past fear is like a.
- [67:16]
Keke Palmer
Little crazy cuz it's still scary to.
- [67:18]
Coco Jones
Pursue this life, you know what I'm saying? And so I would say you got to be a little delusional.
- [67:22]
Keke Palmer
You gotta.
- [67:23]
Coco Jones
You gotta talk to yourself and act the way you see yourself in the future. You know what I'm saying? Maybe not everybody's gonna get it, but you gotta get it. You've got to get it on the inside. And I would also say put everything you can out into the world. Like at this point, you can go viral off of a. Off of doing this. You don't know what's gonna change your life, but nothing will happen if nothing happens. So put something out as much as you.
- [67:47]
Keke Palmer
Another thing I want to speak about too is your parents. Because I know your mother sings or sang and then your dad is in NFL. Did you ever feel a lot of pressure because of their success? Like I got to do something or did you just stand kind of as an example?
- [68:01]
Coco Jones
I never felt pressured. Even when things were going left, one of the things that I can. I held on to was my mom saying, you can always come home. Like, you don't have to do this. You can always come home. Because I think part of it was like, is this pride? Do I just not want to give up because I already did this for so long? Or is this my truth? And so knowing that it was okay and it wasn't failure to leave, kept me sane in knowing that this was my truest choice. But no, they really, I think, encouraged me to pursue anything. Girl, I did every sport that there was. I was gymnastics, softball, I mean, I was dancing, cheering, basketball was the one. I really was feeling. That girl.
- [68:38]
Keke Palmer
Coco Simone Biles Jones.
- [68:39]
Coco Jones
Oh my God.
- [68:40]
T.S. Madison
Why were you so quick with that?
- [68:42]
JT
What's wrong with you?
- [68:43]
T.S. Madison
I'm crying.
- [68:44]
Coco Jones
But yeah, they just encouraged me to pursue it. And they were like, whatever you're willing to work at, we willing to support. So let's go.
- [68:50]
Keke Palmer
I love that. I love that. Nothing like supportive parents, I'm telling you.
- [68:53]
Coco Jones
Okay. Truly.
- [68:55]
Keke Palmer
Well, I'm sad. I was trying to keep you here longer, but I guess I've, you know, gotta come to an end somehow.
- [68:59]
Coco Jones
Girl, you know, you got seven things to do after this.
- [69:05]
Keke Palmer
I am so excited to chat with today's guest. Okay. You might know her voice from the Beyonce song Cozy, or as one of the judges on RuPaul's Drag Race. She published a memoir in 2015 entitled A Light through the Shade, An Autobiography of a Queen. And in 2021, she became the first black trans woman to star in her own reality show, the TS Madison Experience. TS Honey, welcome to the show.
- [69:29]
T.S. Madison
Yes. Kiki. Kiki, do you love me? Are we riding?
- [69:37]
Keke Palmer
Every time I see you, it's really too much, because, like I told you, you cannot come to my show. And out beat me, honey. This face, this hair, these titties, everything is giving me life.
- [69:47]
T.S. Madison
Well, see, Kiki, you got to understand that when you as when you are a. A girl. See, there's a difference between being a woman and then there's being a girl. When you're a girl, you have to stay beat, darling, because, you know, you got to. Because I'm. I'm into, like, why be natural when you can be supernatural?
- [70:07]
Keke Palmer
Oh, and that's on period.
- [70:09]
Issa Rae
That's on period.
- [70:11]
Keke Palmer
Abso freaking lutely. You are probably one of the most viral people ever. I mean, you could do anything that your shit is going viral every other day.
- [70:20]
Tyler Perry
Oh, God.
- [70:20]
Keke Palmer
Did you always want to be famous? Did you always see yourself being an advocate or an activist? Like, how did this come to you?
- [70:27]
T.S. Madison
Well, Keke, I always knew I was going to be a star. I always knew it.
- [70:30]
Keke Palmer
I know that's right.
- [70:31]
T.S. Madison
Like, I didn't know when I didn't know how I knew it. I always knew. I remember me sitting on the floor. I tell this story all the time. Of me. I was 14 years old, and I was sitting on the floor, and I heard a voice. Voice. When RuPaul was on TV. You better work. Turn to the left.
- [70:45]
Keke Palmer
Turn to the left. Work it, girl.
- [70:47]
T.S. Madison
Turn to the right.
- [70:49]
Keke Palmer
Do your thing. Yes, RuPaul.
- [70:55]
T.S. Madison
I'm sitting there, and a voice spoke to me and said, that's going to be your friend, and y'all are going to work together. Here I am from season 12 all the way up here to season 17. I'm a judge on RuPaul's Drag Race. I'm a part of the community. I'm a part of this. And when I met RuPaul, RuPaul was like, T.S. madison, I love your spirit. I love you. I love who you are. And I'm like this. I knew that we were gonna be in close proximity to each other since I was. Since I was 14 years old. People have to know that when they hear something or they feel. Kiki, you knew you were gonna be a star as a kid. Did you knew this?
- [71:37]
Keke Palmer
I did, actually.
- [71:39]
T.S. Madison
You knew?
- [71:40]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, I actually did.
- [71:41]
T.S. Madison
You looked at that tv, you looked at the tv, you looked at whatever you. And you said, they not doing nothing that I can't do.
- [71:46]
Keke Palmer
I watched T and Tamara. I watched Sister, Sister. And I said, I want to be in there. I want to be in there. I feel like I got something to say. I felt like I was always walking in my own movie. I don't know what that. What that was, but I always just felt that was for me.
- [71:58]
T.S. Madison
And I knew that. That me. I was gonna. Now, I didn't know that. Come on, now. Come on. You may. I may need to. I may need to tag you in. I didn't know that I was gonna have to go through, you know, like a puzzle to get in there, but when I got in there and it happened, it just. I. I just made it work for me. I don't want to go viral all the time, but it happens because I'm vocal, I'm. I'm raw, I'm unfiltered, I'm uncut, and, you know, wait a minute. I am cut, but I'm raw.
- [72:27]
Saweetie
Ah.
- [72:28]
Keke Palmer
Oh, that you give so much.
- [72:38]
T.S. Madison
I just. I didn't, you know, I don't know.
- [72:42]
Keke Palmer
You just didn't know. I feel the same way that you feel because a lot of times people look at me and obviously we both, Both of us has made it into a corporate space, a very commercial space. But a lot of times I wasn't what I. What I felt or what people thought I should be. You know, I mean, I'm a black girl, dark skinned, you know, I got us, I got accent to me. And the gag is, you know. You know, I never necessarily thought that people saw me in some of the spaces that I'm in, but I was gonna be me regardless. And the funny thing, which I think is about when you're talking about it's good to see yourself or for representation to be there in all of its truth and authenticity, because it lets people know that. That even if there are walls up against you, even if there is a way that society tells you things should work, you can break through, because what God has for you is for you. There's Always going to be. It's always going to be for you. It's so true. And so I love what you're saying because it's like, yeah, maybe you didn't see it, you felt it. You didn't know how it was going to happen, but, like, you showed up as you and it was more than enough.
- [73:45]
T.S. Madison
And I'm. And in the words of Tisha Campbell.
- [73:47]
Keke Palmer
I'm still here, here, here, here, here. Why does she eat that?
- [73:59]
T.S. Madison
Let me tell you something. I have been. I have honestly been blessed with being. Coming from where I'm from, with the background that I have. I have. Tisha Campbell's my friend. I've met Tichina Arnold. You know. You know I love you. I've met you. You my friend.
- [74:15]
Keke Palmer
I love you, too.
- [74:16]
Issa Rae
Lee.
- [74:16]
T.S. Madison
Daniel. Nicki Minaj, Beyonce.
- [74:21]
Keke Palmer
But ts there's something about you. There's something about you. Your energy, who you are when someone's around you, even when I'm talking to you right now, that my heart feels so pulled open. Like, I just feel like I could say anything. What have. What has been your life like, that has allowed you to be this kind of person that can extend such a safe space to others because I. I feel it. You know what I'm saying? Like, what is that?
- [74:47]
T.S. Madison
I think it's because in a literal sense, I show up naked and I want you to be the same. Hey, let's. I. I don't come clothed. I don't come hiding anything. I don't come with a veil or clothes. I show up naked. So this like, oh, bitch, you naked. Let me take my clothes off to and get comfortable, girl. And I think that that's the way it is with everybody. Like, that's. That's the way it. When I walk in the room, yes, I have on clothes, but I'm showing up to you naked. I've told you, hey, I've been this. I've done that. This has happened to me.
- [75:18]
Keke Palmer
But that's the thing right there. Because your life has not been easy. I mean, you wrote your autobiography, A Light through the shade in 2015. And I mean, what this. This is what I want to get to is because I think a lot of times, people, we're all different. But a lot of times when we. When we feel like our difference is the biggest difference in the room, we attach that to what we've gone through. Well, if this didn't happen, me, I wouldn't be there. This. If I wasn't such and such, then I wouldn't have these Feelings if I wanted. But the truth is, you are who you are, period. What was it for you? And that was big for me. Like I was a kid when I experienced this. I talk about it in my book, I don't belong to you. You know, I was essentially violated. And for a long time I thought, how did that affect me? You know, is this why I'm this way? Is this why I'm that? Is this why I think this and blah, blah, blah. And then I got to the point where I said, I'm me regardless. I cannot attribute anything that makes me feel different or I can't say that that's what's wrong with me when actually that's what made me who let me love me, let me accept me, because that's who I am. This is not a blame, this is not a scar. This is what has made me who I am. So let me love that. And I see that in you. How did you. What was that that allowed you to see those things that someone could say, oh, well, that's trauma and you need to change that and you need to fix that. Where you said, no, no, no, I'm gonna love that and be who I've become.
- [76:35]
T.S. Madison
Well, I. Because everybody, everything that happens to you happens to you, to shape and mold you and to build the person that you are and who you who. Because your life is already pre planned on who you who exactly who you are. All the scars and stuff that you receive are reminders of the things that you went through so that you don't go through them again and also so that you can tell you can help somebody else not to go through those things. For me right now, I'm so glad that you said that. It opened up a window in my thoughts, even in this exact moment, the way that I perceived love and relationships, I've always felt that I was, because I was a former sex worker, that now that I'm not in that life anymore, that I was being. I was going to be punished because I slept with other people's husbands or boyfriends or this and other. And then I just recently had to tell myself, so, Madison, the men that you've been involved with that were bad, were bad men regardless, or were awful men regardless. It had nothing to do with what you did because that was a path that you were given to change lives on the outside so that, you know, so that people can see your life change. So don't blame that on this. It's the decision that you made with those men. You didn't. You didn't vet them properly. You didn't. There's the things you didn't do. So don't think that you're being punished for the life lessons that you had to learn in life. Don't think that you're being punished for that. Like, accept it that happened. You blossom into something else and just move on. And so I am in the I'm learning now. I have to tell you this honestly, Kiki. In this moment, I'm learning now to reconnect to real emotions, real feelings, real love. Because when I was a sex worker, I turned all of that stuff off. Wow. Love, emotion, feeling. I had to turn it off. I had no connection, no human connection. It was this is all business.
- [78:42]
Keke Palmer
Baby, this is this is Kiki. Baby this is Kiki Palm. Enjoy. Baby this is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts and now on YouTube where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby this is Keke Palmer early and ad free on Wondery. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Baby this is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Siegel is our post producer. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer for Team Kiki. My producer is Sharon Palmer for Wondery. Our managing producer is Olivia Fonti. Senior producers are Tristan McNeil and Candace Manriquez Wren. Our executive producers are Emily Feldbrake, Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty and Marshall Louie.